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Dual Wielding Axes? In your opinionFollow

#1 Mar 14 2009 at 6:19 AM Rating: Decent
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Im just sitting at work and was wondering what wars nowadays thought of dual wielding axes in merit parties (not endgame). In my day or when i leveled war, it was laughed at not to have dual axes. Well since the update more and more ppl going GA which isnt bad at all now. I have tons of jobs so my main is not War.

But to the the point, what do you war mains think?
Laughable or no difference?

/sigh i know gear is probably gonna come into question so this is what i got (off the top of my head) btw this is just a basic opinion on dual wield axe wars not on me but gear always comes into question so ill inform you. I am also not looking for gear advice.

Axes: Juggernaut, Maneater
Ammo: bombcore
head: ohat, walmart turban
neck: chiv chain
ear: assault earring, suppa
body: hauberk, N.Body
hands: dusk hands, warriors mufflers, N.hands
rings: snipers x2, rajas, flame ring
back: foragers
waist: potent belt
pants: b.haidate
feet: dusk, marine boots (i dont think i use these) N.feet


gramticational errorors


Edited, Mar 14th 2009 10:23am by TimtakerXs
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#2 Mar 14 2009 at 6:28 AM Rating: Excellent
First things first don't use juggernaut.

It has been proven, and I think linked to in one of the stickys, by math that juggy isnt as good as maneater/iron ram pick. It's just not.

Secondly there are many of these threads, have a look and see what other people have responded in other ones, because it has been asked so many times people are sick of responding. That's not to say you are wrong to ask, we always encourage people trying to find out more about war, it's just a really FAQ.

Basically, gearing to maximize damage output, it's easier to do well with an inferior set up on gaxe than it is on dualwield. Simply because of the 2h update and the boost to acc and att that came with that.

your set up looks very strong, not perfect but well on it's way. So I would presume that you can easily get away with eating meat while dual wielding. I personally think that you would do better with a perdu voulge then axes. In fact I know it. But if you enjoy dualwielding then the set up you have will allow you to be a strong contributor and contendor in any party you participate in.

For war, personal preference plays a big role to your gaming style. You like to dual wield, that's fine. No it isn't laughable, yes it is still one of the best DDs in the game but no it isn't as good as great axe generally.

So basically it's up to you. Nobody will laugh at you for using 2 axes, so if that's what you like to do, go for it.

BUT SELL YOUR JUGGY IT'S A WASTE OF EXCESSIVE AMOUNTS OF GIL THAT COULD BUY YOU SOMETHING PRETTY ELSEWHERE!
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#3 Mar 14 2009 at 8:51 AM Rating: Default
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Great axe is better, I don't own axes anymore.
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#4 Mar 14 2009 at 9:00 AM Rating: Excellent
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Personally i only really recomend Greataxe, Maneater/Joyeuse or Maneater/Ridill at 75, but if you're going to dual wield axes then thats fine: just make sure you gear decently for it.

Ps. its already been said, but juggy is junk.
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#5 Mar 14 2009 at 9:13 AM Rating: Default
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i really dont mind any comment said long as it was about the topic. I am guessing the first poster didnt even read what i wrote. I could careless what u said about my gear this isnt about my gear its about what u guys think about dual axes. This is not about improving anything. And unless there is topic done recently about this its not valid. I am wondering what the CURRENT war thinks. I am not worried about parsars or not. You guys know which ones are better or not. This in no way will change how i play was just curious.

Edited, Mar 14th 2009 1:14pm by TimtakerXs
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#6 Mar 14 2009 at 9:16 AM Rating: Good
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Kenage wrote:
You should be using Maneater on the main hand, that means that we just need to compare I.R.Pick and Juggy as offhand.

If your attack is 375(that's an average attack for a dual-wield war) before berserk, food or minuet, after food and minuet that becomes 515 w/o berserk and 625 with berserk, and let's say 77 STR(base 70 + hauby and HQ ammemet).

Iron Ram Pick
lvl:71 DPS: 10.52 DMG:47 Delay:268 Attack+10 Enhances "Resist Curse" effect

Juggernaut
lvl:70 DPS: 9.58 DMG:46 Delay:288 HP+18 STR+3 AGI-3 Attack+30

As stated several times before Glolibries have average defense of 324.5 and averagelevel correction of 0.325 and VIT of 67

With Berserk

I.R. Pick
cRatio = 635/324.5 - 0.325 = 1.632
Base Damage = 47 + ((77-67)+6)/4 = 51
Average Damage = 51 * ((1.2 * 1.632) + (-0.8 + (1.2 * 1.697))/2
Average Damage = 51 * (1.958+1.1584)/2
Average Damage = 51 * 1.5582 = 79.468

I.R. Pick has 268 delay what is more or less ~4.47sec per hit or 13.423 hits per minute

The averange damage per minute of I.R Pick is = 79.468 * 13.423 = 1052.395

Juggernaut
cRatio = 655/324.5 - 0.325 = 1.697
Base Damage = 46 + ((80-67)+4)/4 = 50.25
Average Damage = 50.25 * ((1.2 * 1.697) + (-0.8 + (1.2 * 1.697)))/2
Average Damage = 50.25 * (2.036+1.236)/2
Average Damage = 50.25 * 1.636 = 82.229

Juggernaut has 288 delay what is 4.8sec per hit or 12.5 hits per minute

The averange damage per minute of Juggernaut is = 82.229 * 12.5 = 1027.863

Berserk up I.R. Pick hits ~2.387% harder than Juggy

Without Berserk

I.R. Pick
cRatio = 525/324.5 - 0.325 = 1.293
Base Damage = 47 + ((77-67)+6)/4 = 51
Average Damage = 51 * ((1.2 * 1.293) + 1)/2
Average Damage = 51 * (1.5516+1)/2
Average Damage = 51 * 1.276 = 65.066

I.R. Pick has 268 delay what is more or less ~4.47sec per hit or 13.423 hits per minute

The averange damage per minute of I.R Pick is = 65.066 * 13.423 = 873.378

Juggernaut
cRatio = 545/324.5 - 0.325 = 1.355
Base Damage = 46 + ((80-67)+4)/4 = 50.25
Average Damage = 50.25 * ((1.2 * 1.355) + 1)/2
Average Damage = 50.25 * (2.036+1)/2
Average Damage = 50.25 * 1.313 = 65.978

Juggernaut has 288 delay what is 4.8sec per hit or 12.5 hits per minute

The averange damage per minute of Juggernaut is = 65.978 * 12.5 = 824.725

Berserk down I.R. Pick hits ~5.899% harder than Juggy

Just to end all this berserk is up 3/5 of the time at least which means that:

Average % = ((5.889 * 2) + (2.387 * 3)) / 5 = (11.778 + 7.161) / 5 = 3.788%

I.R.Pick it's about 3.788% better than Juggernaut.

Next time someone lol at you saying that I.R. Pick is better than Juggernaut smile at the 1.5m in your pocket.

I hope it helps.

Ken.

P.D. I just took a look at the DPS on Woodville's Axe is just 0.1 lower than I.R.Pick still 0.84 better than Juggy, I don't want to keep digging the grave for Juggy but I think that Woodville/Man should be very close to Man/Juggy if not even better.


Edit: actually answering OP's question....

There is nothing wrong with dual axes, do they have as high of DoT as axe/multi-hit sword or most Great axes? No. But will you be laughed at for using them? Probably not. When I want to spice it up a little bit I use man/IR just for something different. The beauty of Warrior is that we can make just about any weapon in the game a deadly force. Also since it doesnt really matter if you are top parser or not in a meripo axe/axe is just fine.

Edited, Mar 14th 2009 1:22pm by clatuu
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#7 Mar 14 2009 at 2:55 PM Rating: Excellent
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I just recently had a meripo with a War that used dual axes and he wasn't bad at all. I was parsing to see how my Thf was doing. Camp was mamool ja north. Set up was: 75brd, 75Rdm, 75Sam, 70Rng, 73Thf, 75War. LS party aside from the War hence the level gaps. The War came in 2nd behind the Sam but his ACC, dmg %, and WS average was above average I'd say. I checked him once and had decent gears. Nothing mind blowing but he gear swapped and always stayed on top of his vokes. I'd invite the person again on principle they were enjoyable to have in the party and pulled they're weight.


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#8 Mar 14 2009 at 3:32 PM Rating: Excellent
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I really dont like the way you posted this. You ask us to answer a question with a simple answer but it's not that simple. It all matters about how you are geared. If you come in with crappy gear it doesnt matter what weapon you are using, but it is going to be much more noticable on axes. Dont put your gear if you dont want it critiqued. There was truely no point for you to put it unless you were asking about how someone would look at you in particular coming into a camp but thats not what you were asking. Mojo's gear advice was really good and expecially since you can sell that juggy to fund ANYTHING better so you should do it. Don't get mad when someone makes a suggestion, either listen to it (which you should so you can be the best war possible) or just simply ignore it and let others learn from the post.
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#9 Mar 14 2009 at 3:36 PM Rating: Excellent
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TimtakerXs wrote:
I could careless what u said about my gear this isnt about my gear its about what u guys think about dual axes. This is not about improving anything. And unless there is topic done recently about this its not valid. I am wondering what the CURRENT war thinks.
It's quite valid, actually, and on topic. The point being made is that, when properly utilized, dual wield is fine. The thing is, with Juggernaut you're not properly utilizing your potential. The alternative is cheaper and superior.

Furthermore, whether you think we realize or not, **** whether you realize it yourself or not, you were looking for justification on that overpriced piece of wood in your offhand. You wouldn't have mentioned your gearset, and prefaced it saying you knew it would come up, if it didn't really matter. We're not dumb.

As clatuu posted Kenage's maths, Juggernaut is just deadweight. You want to dual wield it's your call. We're trying to help you do it right.
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#10 Mar 14 2009 at 4:04 PM Rating: Good
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My axe still isn't capped on WAR (at 225) and I've been 75 for like, 9 months.
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#11 Mar 14 2009 at 4:41 PM Rating: Decent
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TimtakerXs wrote:
i really dont mind any comment said long as it was about the topic. I am guessing the first poster didnt even read what i wrote. I could careless what u said about my gear this isnt about my gear its about what u guys think about dual axes. This is not about improving anything. And unless there is topic done recently about this its not valid. I am wondering what the CURRENT war thinks. I am not worried about parsars or not. You guys know which ones are better or not. This in no way will change how i play was just curious.

Edited, Mar 14th 2009 1:14pm by TimtakerXs
Fuck you then.

Honestly "I ASKED A KWESCHUN BUT I R NUT GUNNA LISTEN TOO ANSWER LALALLAA" is pretty moronic. Go 'way
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#12 Mar 14 2009 at 5:16 PM Rating: Default
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clatuu wrote:
Kenage wrote:
You should be using Maneater on the main hand, that means that we just need to compare I.R.Pick and Juggy as offhand.

If your attack is 375(that's an average attack for a dual-wield war) before berserk, food or minuet, after food and minuet that becomes 515 w/o berserk and 625 with berserk, and let's say 77 STR(base 70 + hauby and HQ ammemet).

Iron Ram Pick
lvl:71 DPS: 10.52 DMG:47 Delay:268 Attack+10 Enhances "Resist Curse" effect

Juggernaut
lvl:70 DPS: 9.58 DMG:46 Delay:288 HP+18 STR+3 AGI-3 Attack+30

As stated several times before Glolibries have average defense of 324.5 and averagelevel correction of 0.325 and VIT of 67

With Berserk

I.R. Pick
cRatio = 635/324.5 - 0.325 = 1.632
Base Damage = 47 + ((77-67)+6)/4 = 51
Average Damage = 51 * ((1.2 * 1.632) + (-0.8 + (1.2 * 1.697))/2
Average Damage = 51 * (1.958+1.1584)/2
Average Damage = 51 * 1.5582 = 79.468

I.R. Pick has 268 delay what is more or less ~4.47sec per hit or 13.423 hits per minute

The averange damage per minute of I.R Pick is = 79.468 * 13.423 = 1052.395

Juggernaut
cRatio = 655/324.5 - 0.325 = 1.697
Base Damage = 46 + ((80-67)+4)/4 = 50.25
Average Damage = 50.25 * ((1.2 * 1.697) + (-0.8 + (1.2 * 1.697)))/2
Average Damage = 50.25 * (2.036+1.236)/2
Average Damage = 50.25 * 1.636 = 82.229

Juggernaut has 288 delay what is 4.8sec per hit or 12.5 hits per minute

The averange damage per minute of Juggernaut is = 82.229 * 12.5 = 1027.863

Berserk up I.R. Pick hits ~2.387% harder than Juggy

Without Berserk

I.R. Pick
cRatio = 525/324.5 - 0.325 = 1.293
Base Damage = 47 + ((77-67)+6)/4 = 51
Average Damage = 51 * ((1.2 * 1.293) + 1)/2
Average Damage = 51 * (1.5516+1)/2
Average Damage = 51 * 1.276 = 65.066

I.R. Pick has 268 delay what is more or less ~4.47sec per hit or 13.423 hits per minute

The averange damage per minute of I.R Pick is = 65.066 * 13.423 = 873.378

Juggernaut
cRatio = 545/324.5 - 0.325 = 1.355
Base Damage = 46 + ((80-67)+4)/4 = 50.25
Average Damage = 50.25 * ((1.2 * 1.355) + 1)/2
Average Damage = 50.25 * (2.036+1)/2
Average Damage = 50.25 * 1.313 = 65.978

Juggernaut has 288 delay what is 4.8sec per hit or 12.5 hits per minute

The averange damage per minute of Juggernaut is = 65.978 * 12.5 = 824.725

Berserk down I.R. Pick hits ~5.899% harder than Juggy

Just to end all this berserk is up 3/5 of the time at least which means that:

Average % = ((5.889 * 2) + (2.387 * 3)) / 5 = (11.778 + 7.161) / 5 = 3.788%

I.R.Pick it's about 3.788% better than Juggernaut.

Next time someone lol at you saying that I.R. Pick is better than Juggernaut smile at the 1.5m in your pocket.

I hope it helps.

Ken.

P.D. I just took a look at the DPS on Woodville's Axe is just 0.1 lower than I.R.Pick still 0.84 better than Juggy, I don't want to keep digging the grave for Juggy but I think that Woodville/Man should be very close to Man/Juggy if not even better.



Stop posting flawed math. Read the whole thread.

I'll copy and paste the part you ignored:

Gerkin wrote:


I'd just like to note, for anyone who clicked the link, or does click the link, you need to read the thread the rest of the way through, as the direct post that is linked, is in fact mathematically flawed, as stated and agreed by the poster Kenage.

MimikSS wrote:
The calculations are not exactly complete. While you have managed to show data comparing IR vs jugg at some set values and gear sets, you have not compared the boost the maneater will get with the extra 20 attack and 3 Str. Those offhand stats effect that main hand as well.


As you read on, the actual calculation were never done, I assume it's just agreed, that the two will come out so close, that there is no difference between the two.

bsphil wrote:
I wouldn't be shocked if juggernaut came out a percent or so ahead of man/irp. What would shock me if it came out far enough ahead to justify spending several million gil over 10k.


So, while I completely agree that Juggy is "Not worth it" it's not neccisarily fair to call it "complete crap". Although technically in my personal opinion, an item that does the same exact thing, but cost 1.8M MORE, is in fact complete crap. But to be 'politically correct' Juggy is an acceptable weapon that will give you the same results you'd get with IRP.

So... Juggy is 'on par' with IRP. If you want to waste 1.8M on it, be my guest.

But that link shouldn't be used, as the data is incorrect, and never was completed.
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#13 Mar 14 2009 at 6:08 PM Rating: Good
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#14 Mar 14 2009 at 6:09 PM Rating: Default
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#15 Mar 14 2009 at 11:15 PM Rating: Decent
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#16 Mar 15 2009 at 2:21 AM Rating: Good
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what about the comparison between woodville/maneater and man/IR? i don't have war, but that's what i had for a setup when i go bst/nin

does the DoT and atk make up for the lower base dmg and +4 str?
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#17 Mar 15 2009 at 2:24 AM Rating: Good
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slayerpso wrote:
what about the comparison between woodville/maneater and man/IR? i don't have war, but that's what i had for a setup when i go bst/nin

does the DoT and atk make up for the lower base dmg and +4 str?


Yessir.
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#18 Mar 15 2009 at 2:31 AM Rating: Good
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Solrain wrote:
slayerpso wrote:
what about the comparison between woodville/maneater and man/IR? i don't have war, but that's what i had for a setup when i go bst/nin

does the DoT and atk make up for the lower base dmg and +4 str?


Yessir.


hmm, guess it's time to go dust off those AN, or pray for a temp axe
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#19 Mar 15 2009 at 2:51 AM Rating: Excellent
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TimtakerXs wrote:
i really dont mind any comment said long as it was about the topic. I am guessing the first poster didnt even read what i wrote. I could careless what u said about my gear this isnt about my gear its about what u guys think about dual axes. This is not about improving anything. And unless there is topic done recently about this its not valid. I am wondering what the CURRENT war thinks. I am not worried about parsars or not. You guys know which ones are better or not. This in no way will change how i play was just curious.

Edited, Mar 14th 2009 1:14pm by TimtakerXs


people like this would be so much more tolerable if one got paid to give them the information they demand.

timtakerxs,

as for your original question,
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#20 Mar 15 2009 at 5:23 AM Rating: Excellent
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Only time I Dual-Wield is Nyzul isle... & its not 2 axes.

No PCC or Bomblet ? oops gear comment.

Heres another: Axe/Sword benefits more from Suppa... also gives you Piercing!
(Joytoy).

Yeah, kinda frustrating when someone posts gear as a part of question, then gets mad at comments.

People might have thought OP trying to maximize performance... sadly it appears
this is not the case.

NEXT !
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#21 Mar 15 2009 at 10:06 AM Rating: Good
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slayerpso wrote:
what about the comparison between woodville/maneater and man/IR? i don't have war, but that's what i had for a setup when i go bst/nin

does the DoT and atk make up for the lower base dmg and +4 str?
Maneater/Temperance Axe is the correct answer. Smiley: sly
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#22 Mar 15 2009 at 10:24 AM Rating: Excellent
TimtakerXs wrote:
i really dont mind any comment said long as it was about the topic. I am guessing the first poster didnt even read what i wrote. I could careless what u said about my gear this isnt about my gear its about what u guys think about dual axes. This is not about improving anything. And unless there is topic done recently about this its not valid. I am wondering what the CURRENT war thinks. I am not worried about parsars or not. You guys know which ones are better or not. This in no way will change how i play was just curious.

Edited, Mar 14th 2009 1:14pm by TimtakerXs


I think you'll find I read your post and answered your question both politely and helpfully, despite the torrent of these threads that get posted each week. You asked what we think about dualwielding axes. I told you that gear dependant it would be possible.

And, if you had read my post you would have seen this:
I wrote:
No it isn't laughable, yes it is still one of the best DDs in the game but no it isn't as good as great axe generally.


I then complimented your set up and said that, with gear like yours, an axe/axe build would do fine. This wasnt about you specifically, it was about an axe/axe build using your gear as a reference since you have the gear to support it, and you asked the question.

If you want to compare axe/axe to Gaxe without taking gear into account, go fight some merit mobs naked with each and see how that goes.

And if you are going to get angry because I save you 1M on juggy... Well, some people are just looking for a fight, and I'm too sober rational to rise to the bait. Luckily for me I have Nila to do that for me (see above).
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#23 Mar 15 2009 at 10:42 AM Rating: Excellent
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Nilatai the Intelligent wrote:
slayerpso wrote:
what about the comparison between woodville/maneater and man/IR? i don't have war, but that's what i had for a setup when i go bst/nin

does the DoT and atk make up for the lower base dmg and +4 str?
Maneater/Temperance Axe is the correct answer. Smiley: sly


would have had one, but we had some issues with CFH
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#24 Mar 15 2009 at 12:21 PM Rating: Excellent
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slayerpso wrote:
Nilatai the Intelligent wrote:
slayerpso wrote:
what about the comparison between woodville/maneater and man/IR? i don't have war, but that's what i had for a setup when i go bst/nin

does the DoT and atk make up for the lower base dmg and +4 str?
Maneater/Temperance Axe is the correct answer. Smiley: sly


would have had one, but we had some issues with CFH


(´;ω;`)
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#25 Mar 15 2009 at 5:49 PM Rating: Excellent
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Gerkin wrote:
MimikSS wrote:
The calculations are not exactly complete. While you have managed to show data comparing IR vs jugg at some set values and gear sets, you have not compared the boost the maneater will get with the extra 20 attack and 3 Str. Those offhand stats effect that main hand as well.


As you read on, the actual calculation were never done, I assume it's just agreed, that the two will come out so close, that there is no difference between the two.

bsphil wrote:
I wouldn't be shocked if juggernaut came out a percent or so ahead of man/irp. What would shock me if it came out far enough ahead to justify spending several million gil over 10k.


So, while I completely agree that Juggy is "Not worth it" it's not neccisarily fair to call it "complete crap". Although technically in my personal opinion, an item that does the same exact thing, but cost 1.8M MORE, is in fact complete crap. But to be 'politically correct' Juggy is an acceptable weapon that will give you the same results you'd get with IRP.

So... Juggy is 'on par' with IRP. If you want to waste 1.8M on it, be my guest.

But that link shouldn't be used, as the data is incorrect, and never was completed.
When you are asking someone to read the entire thread do it yourself first my friend.

I actually answered to MimikSS stating why even though his comments man/I.R come on top in this post:

I wrote: wrote:
First of all MimikSS thank you for your comments, I'm always welcome to hear better/different opinions, also it's always nice to see a new math enthusiast, welcome to the Mead Hall btw =)
Now regarding your comments:
MimikSS wrote:
Kenage:

I'm not trying to throw this calculation out the door, but ...

The calculations are not exactly complete. While you have managed to show data comparing IR vs jugg at some set values and gear sets, you have not compared the boost the maneater will get with the extra 20 attack and 3 Str. Those offhand stats effect that main hand as well.

At bare minimal, we would also need a melee comparison of the maneater w/ IR vs maneater w/ jugg.


Carefull here pal, what is the advantage of juggy over I.R.Pick? it is 20 att and 3 STR right?, but you also need to consider that I.R.Pick have advantages over Juggy, basically it's faster(lower delay), I.R.Pick won in my math mostly due it's delay, the 1 Damage difference(I.R.Pick 47 against juggy 46) while it has some impact is rather minimal compared to the delay difference.

I didn't touch Maneater because it is more or less the same story, Maneater will be stronger with juggy but faster with I.R.Pick, maneater will be ahead with I.R.Pick as well due it's delay.

MimikSS wrote:
If you want to look even further, rampage would also get a boost from that extra 20 attack and 3 Str. An approximation of the WS damage per hit (non crit or crit) could close this gap or invert it.

Considering the nature of dual-wield ability(attacking faster but getting less tp) any dual-wielding job sacrifice some WS damage(because he/she gets less tp) to increase significantly it's DoT(because he/she attacks faster), ending in relationships of the order of 35/65 30/70 in WS/DoT damage ratio.

My point here is: considering that I.R.Pick is 3.788% better than juggy and a 35/65 damage ratio(WS/DoT), the difference of 20 attack and 3 STR from juggy need to increase your WS damage on 7.035% at least to match the improve of I.R.Pick DoT, and even though you are still paying 1.5 millions for nothing, I know that 20 attack and 3 STR don't improve my WS damage over ~7% that's pretty much obvious I think, but now let me ask you, if you are going to pay 1.5 mill for something, how much does that need to improve your DoT to be worth your money?

I hope it helps.

Ken.

P.D. Let me recommend you to forget about comparing a sword(Organics) for WAR, at least if it isn't over 12 DPS, has been demonstrated long time ago that non-axe off hands must be multi-hit to be worth for our job. ^^
Sorry for the long post, I just felt this needed to be clarified.

Sincerely.

Ken.

Edit: tags

Edited, Mar 20th 2009 12:11pm by kenage
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#26 Mar 15 2009 at 5:55 PM Rating: Good
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