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#1 Feb 26 2009 at 10:01 PM Rating: Excellent
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I recently scrounged enough gil to buy a Maneater. I actually purchased it for 10k cheaper than expected, which was nice! I am still 72, so I have not had a chance to play with it yet. My problem is...that everyone on these forums seems to agree (as do I) that Great Axe is probably the reason dinosaurs are extinct. That being said, I am now doubting my recent purchase...

Typically in exp parties I will go /sam and lol for several hours whilst turning mobs into delicious pudding. Naturally I will /nin if the situation calls for it, but I do so enjoy /sam.

Ok, now to the part where I ask for advice/support/council. I assume I will be going /nin in situations like Nyzul where sneak/invis/shadows are just too good to pass up. While I have seen it several times on here before, for the sake of clarification, is it generally assumed GAXE even while /nin is superior to axe/axe? I know, I know just because you have the ability to DW, doesnt mean you have to.

My next problem: I do not have a joyeus and I most certainly do not have a ridill, nor will I ever. Should I even bother with axes? Is Maneater/IR Pick good enough to use in endgame situations if I have to /nin? Or should I just stick with GAXE forever?

At the moment I am using a Fourth Toporak, and working for my Perdu. So what do you think? Should I keep the Manny? I just dont want to have another pricey mog house ornament...

Thanks :D
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#2 Feb 26 2009 at 10:18 PM Rating: Excellent
In most all endgame situations, especially against the higher level hnm, Great Axe is going to perform better than Axes will. Personally speaking, I sold off my Maneater, cause even though I have Ridill to offhand, Great Axe (especially with /sam) gave me better results. If you don't intend to do any major end game situations like hnm fights, then Axe/Axe is not going to fall too far behind G.axe, so it'd be more of a preference choice.
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#3 Feb 26 2009 at 10:30 PM Rating: Excellent
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Use whatever but define what endgame is to you. You'll see this over and over: ****'s situational. It just is so be prepared to adjust to take advantage of the situation for fun or as necessary (you're a war; most of the time it's for fun).

In nyzul stuff outside of the actual NMs inside are just DC-T in toughness (psychflayers are a real ***** though) so it won't be a giant difference. Dynamis, outside of fighting demons, everything is relatively light enough to use anything. Limbus for the most part also won't matter as much but there is a floor that requires at least two weapon dmg types (just have axe|gaxe/spear to keep it simple).

Higher lvl mobs, like certain hnms, really need you to use your best weapon, so you'll want a gaxe for them unless you're needed to sc and need options (once you get king's justice you'll be able to stick with gaxe even for light sc, though if you're lucky you can still make frag with RR).

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#4 Feb 26 2009 at 10:39 PM Rating: Decent
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I don't bother with axe/axe anymore - I sold off my Maneater/I.R./Woodville's long ago and don't plan on buying them back any time soon for WAR purposes.

Ironically enough, my BST is almost Maneater/I.R. level, so I may buy them back for that, but on WAR I'll stick to my Perdu Voulge.

I really don't mean to sound 2008/2009 mainstream, but imo there's no reason for a WAR to own an axe nowadays, save off-hand Ridill/Joyeuse, or for the purpose of pure fun.
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#5 Feb 26 2009 at 11:02 PM Rating: Default
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Sold maneater, used money to fund the many other gear upgrades needed. Haven't looked back.
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#6TheSecretOfHorutoto, Posted: Feb 27 2009 at 1:20 AM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) If you don't have Ridill, don't bother with dual wield because you're only gimping yourself. Even if you do, Great Axe can outparse in most situations. And yes, GAXE even while /nin :). I usually /sam for EXP though, even with pickup parties.
#7 Feb 27 2009 at 4:07 AM Rating: Good
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Vlorsutes, Lord of Stuff wrote:
In most all endgame situations, especially against the higher level hnm, Great Axe is going to perform better than Axes will.
Meh, with Feint and Angon it really doesn't matter what you use, even at the highest tiers of endgame. If your shell doesn't have access to Feint and Angon ... wtf is wrong with your shell?
TheSecretOfHorutoto wrote:
If you don't have Ridill, don't bother with dual wield because you're only gimping yourself. Even if you do, Great Axe can outparse in most situations.
If all you care about is a list of numbers, then sure. Then again, if you're that gone then you also probably think that your parsing higher than a random group of variables is really making a difference to your exp/hr.

If your shell knows what they're doing in endgame: USE WHATEVER LOOKS THE MOST PLEASING TO YOU.

If you're looking at exp: USE WHATEVER LOOKS THE MOST PLEASING TO YOU.

Neither situation is going to be the difference between victory and defeat. You'll never hear "If you'd only parsed 0.1% higher we'd have (won the fight/kept the chain going)!"
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#8 Feb 27 2009 at 4:34 AM Rating: Good
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I think one thing to look at as well is how much are you able to merit. I personally have crap for time so I went simply with GA only so I can use my merits on GA instead of Axe/GA/Sword. While I know this may not be the best reason, a fully merited GA is WAY better than a non merited axe/axe setup and is a **** of a lot easier to pull off well (not needing insane gear to do similar damage). Look at what you have available to you in terms of gear and meritting and make a decision.

If you have the time/gear/merits do whatever the **** your heart desires.
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#9 Feb 27 2009 at 5:21 AM Rating: Decent
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capped axe at 269 and cleaned wepon of trial, just need Decimation fight for completion sake, but i'm sticking to my full merit Gaxe ;) never looked back on the maneater i sold ;)
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#10 Feb 27 2009 at 6:19 AM Rating: Good
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Places I use or would use axe:

- Merits sub Joy for fun.
- Rugaroo (Axe/Shield means more shots at actually swinging and not being intimidated)
- Draketrader Zlodgodd (Mistral Axe is better than missing your WS because of Jump spam)

Those are some, off the top of my head. I am tired of people saying there is no situational use for Axe. ******* Christ.
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#11TheSecretOfHorutoto, Posted: Mar 02 2009 at 4:26 AM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) lol @ everyone supporting gax > axe got a huge amount of rate down in this thread. Idiots just don't like to hear the truth.
#12 Mar 02 2009 at 4:30 AM Rating: Good
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You're the only one that seems to have taken a huge hit ...
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#13TheSecretOfHorutoto, Posted: Mar 02 2009 at 4:31 AM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) That's because i rated the others back up again.
#14 Mar 02 2009 at 5:34 AM Rating: Decent
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lolgaxe wrote:

If your shell knows what they're doing in endgame: USE WHATEVER LOOKS THE MOST PLEASING TO YOU.

If you're looking at exp: USE WHATEVER LOOKS THE MOST PLEASING TO YOU.


I would change to "Use whatever you like more", but i quote the spirit.

You like great axe? Use great axe. You like axes? use axes.


Great axes are easier to gear for though.

Edited, Mar 2nd 2009 9:09am by wyrmnax
#15 Mar 02 2009 at 5:45 AM Rating: Decent
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TheSecretOfHorutoto wrote:
lol @ everyone supporting gax > axe got a huge amount of rate down in this thread. Idiots just don't like to hear the truth.


Considering the only truth is that you can use whatever you please, but using a GAXE has become more favorable especially as /sam these days.

Edited, Mar 2nd 2009 5:59am by Theonehio
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#16 Mar 02 2009 at 6:38 AM Rating: Decent
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If you're that worried about topping a parse, maybe you should level something else? WAR is supposed to be about versatility. Use Gaxe, Axe/Axe or Axe/Joy. Dosn't matter to me. What matters to me is when you're so horribly geared you'll fail no matter what you do.
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#17 Mar 02 2009 at 1:48 PM Rating: Decent
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What if clubs look most pleasing to me?
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#18 Mar 03 2009 at 1:46 AM Rating: Good
Then don't expect to be meriting long.
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#19 Mar 03 2009 at 3:40 AM Rating: Good
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RedshiftOnPandy wrote:
What if clubs look most pleasing to me?
Go ahead, unless you want to pretend that your damage is really the reason you're winning fights swiftly.
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#20 Mar 03 2009 at 12:43 PM Rating: Default
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After reading this thread im probably going to sell my maneater. I haven't used it for anything since I been back in the game. I sold my woodsville to help fund my nin so I was just holding on to maneater in case something popped up. I figure if I need to dualwield ill main hand iron ram and mabey off hand my tungi or something lol.
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#21 Mar 03 2009 at 12:47 PM Rating: Good
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RedshiftOnPandy wrote:
What if clubs look most pleasing to me?


There's this one time in merit camp...

One of those times when we were supposed to leave and people kept realizing they were like 100 xp away from merit, etc. I had equipped my warp cudgel in my main hand and just kept using that. I ended up doing a 300TP True Strike on the final mob with Warriors Charge and blew it away. Boy was that some lulz.
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#22 Mar 03 2009 at 12:54 PM Rating: Decent
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AlternativeOne wrote:
After reading this thread im probably going to sell my maneater. I haven't used it for anything since I been back in the game. I sold my woodsville to help fund my nin so I was just holding on to maneater in case something popped up. I figure if I need to dualwield ill main hand iron ram and mabey off hand my tungi or something lol.


if it were me, i'd sell the maneater. well, actually i wouldn't b/c 150k is sort of peanuts, but still, there's 2 dichotomies that need to be separated and looked at:

1) optimal setup [with or without luxury gear] vs comparable to mildly worse just-for-fun setup [with or without luxury gear]

2) luxury gear for optimal setup vs luxury gear for just-for-fun-set

i fully endorse "just-for-fun" setups (like people who like going SAM/RNG to merits even though it sucks:P), and i suspect a lot of people agree with me on that (that's our stance on (1)). however, i don't see the point in blowing resources on the just-for-fun setup if you could more beneficially use them elsewhere (that's my stance on (2), though if you really love how axe/axe plays, maybe the money doesn't matter).

you can feel 1 way or the other about (1) and (2), but it's not a matter of opinion that they are separate dichotomies/considerations.
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#23 Mar 03 2009 at 9:48 PM Rating: Good
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milich wrote:
i fully endorse "just-for-fun" setups (like people who like going SAM/RNG to merits even though it sucks:P), and i suspect a lot of people agree with me on that (that's our stance on (1)). however, i don't see the point in blowing resources on the just-for-fun setup if you could more beneficially use them elsewhere (that's my stance on (2), though if you really love how axe/axe plays, maybe the money doesn't matter).

you can feel 1 way or the other about (1) and (2), but it's not a matter of opinion that they are separate dichotomies/considerations.


I totally agree, especially with the SAM/RNG sentiment - it's probably my favorite job combo ever in all of FFXI. Is it optimal nowadays? No. Is it fun? Fuck yes it is. Sadly, I did sell most of my /RNG stuff to fund other purchases but I feel that it benefited me more on the whole.

As long as it's not something completely stupid, any combo can work. I personally get really excited when I see a DA proc on both axe swings, or when I kick on MNK. It's just visually pleasing. If you play the job right, in any aspect, it's really not gonna kill the XP. It's all about the fun.

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#24 Mar 04 2009 at 4:09 AM Rating: Good
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milich wrote:
i fully endorse "just-for-fun" setups (like people who like going SAM/RNG to merits even though it sucks:P), and i suspect a lot of people agree with me on that (that's our stance on (1)). however, i don't see the point in blowing resources on the just-for-fun setup if you could more beneficially use them elsewhere (that's my stance on (2), though if you really love how axe/axe plays, maybe the money doesn't matter).
See, the only two different pieces of gear (aside from the weapons, obviously) between a dual wield and a great axe build is basically an earring and a neckpiece. It's not like you have to get a radical different set of gear to make one work.

Which is something I really don't understand with people insisting one build doesn't work. They were probably the same people during the DW Onry phase saying the same thing about Great Axes.

I don't care if what people want to do THEMSELVES, but it's needlessly irritating when they come in and tell other people that what THEY want to do is wrong. "I use so-and-so personally, and find this-and-that to work" is fine in my book, but "Don't use so-and-so because it is dramatically inferior to this-and-that" isn't good, and a blatant lie, and will continue to be so until someone can decisively prove that one is the reason chains become infinite, and fights are won and using the other will constantly cause loss.
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#25 Mar 04 2009 at 1:21 PM Rating: Decent
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Personally, stuff like nyzul and other places where I fight DC-T mobs, axe and gaxe are essentially equal, and my BST has axe merits, so that makes axe/axe more fun. I have man/IR for BST, but I would probably keep them anyway
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#26 Mar 04 2009 at 1:51 PM Rating: Good
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lolgaxe wrote:
milich wrote:
i fully endorse "just-for-fun" setups (like people who like going SAM/RNG to merits even though it sucks:P), and i suspect a lot of people agree with me on that (that's our stance on (1)). however, i don't see the point in blowing resources on the just-for-fun setup if you could more beneficially use them elsewhere (that's my stance on (2), though if you really love how axe/axe plays, maybe the money doesn't matter).
See, the only two different pieces of gear (aside from the weapons, obviously) between a dual wield and a great axe build is basically an earring and a neckpiece. It's not like you have to get a radical different set of gear to make one work.

Which is something I really don't understand with people insisting one build doesn't work. They were probably the same people during the DW Onry phase saying the same thing about Great Axes.

I don't care if what people want to do THEMSELVES, but it's needlessly irritating when they come in and tell other people that what THEY want to do is wrong. "I use so-and-so personally, and find this-and-that to work" is fine in my book, but "Don't use so-and-so because it is dramatically inferior to this-and-that" isn't good, and a blatant lie, and will continue to be so until someone can decisively prove that one is the reason chains become infinite, and fights are won and using the other will constantly cause loss.


it's fairly clear to me that such proof won't be forthcoming. 1 of my oldest friends in the game (who leveled WAR with my MNK on dhalmel in bibiki bay:P) has always been sort of an A.D.D. player regarding weapons, swapping between axe/axe, company sword/something, GA for the past 5 years. he still does this (as does my other old friend who leveled WAR a couple years ago), and the parses don't change dramatically when either of them switch to axe/axe. the results might change if we were max haste and they were /SAM, but in that case, with me and other people i look for when forming parties in party, chances are we'd still have infinite chain even if 1 member occasionally went AFK or started skilling staff.

the "both setups work" is even more dramatic if the setup you're occasionally switching to is axe/ridill + sword merits;;.

speaking of axe/axe vs GA, here's a 22k/hr gcolibri pt (was short-ish, 1 chain 67 then we disbanded), in which my old friend used GA and axe/axe. pt setup is: SCH, BRD, COR, WAR/NIN, MNK/NIN (me), DRK/SAM, w/ march/march, enblizzardga, chaos roll and fighter's roll up fulltime.

Damage Summary 
Player               Total Dmg   Damage %   Melee Dmg   Range Dmg   Abil. Dmg  WSkill Dmg   Spell Dmg  Other Dmg 
DRK/SAM                  84917    25.56 %       45861           0          84       36754           0       2218 
WAR/NINvoker             95489    28.74 %       60453           0           0       29400           0       5636 
Pahn                    145464    43.78 %       96907           0         366       37314           0      10877 
 
Melee Damage 
Player            Melee Dmg   Melee %   Hit/Miss   M.Acc %  M.Low/Hi    M.Avg  #Crit  C.Low/Hi   C.Avg     Crit% 
DRK/SAM               45861   54.01 %     275/90   75.34 %   104/236   159.79     17   247/324  272.59    6.18 % 
WAR/NINvoker          60453   63.31 %    519/157   76.78 %    42/252   107.92     57    94/319  185.89   10.98 % 
Pahn                  96907   66.62 %    937/242   79.47 %    38/131    90.90    177    98/191  157.20   18.89 % 
 
Weaponskill Damage 
Player                 WSkill Dmg   WSkill %  Hit/Miss   WS.Acc %   WS.Low/Hi   WS.Avg 
DRK/SAM                     36754    43.28 %      53/0   100.00 %    190/1223   693.47 
 - Guillotine               36754   100.00 %      53/0   100.00 %    190/1223   693.47 
WAR/NINvoker                29400    30.79 %      40/0   100.00 %    181/1376   735.00 
 - Raging Rush              15077    51.28 %      19/0   100.00 %    181/1285   793.53 
 - Rampage                  13659    46.46 %      20/0   100.00 %    303/1376   682.95 
 - Steel Cyclone              664     2.26 %       1/0   100.00 %     664/664   664.00 
Pahn                        37314    25.65 %      45/0   100.00 %    356/1099   829.20 
 - Asuran Fists             37314   100.00 %      45/0   100.00 %    356/1099   829.20 


---

what's the point of showing this data?

a) we're at the most popular merit camp with 1 member doing 50% better than the next highest DD, with only 3 DDs, and carrying chain easily (ave. fight length 29.88 seconds). 1 DD is sacrificing damage for casting time and inferior sub, and 1 DD is DRK/SAM and parsing very low (read: is no where near living up to his potential).

b) the WAR's damage split was consistently around 60% melee, 40% WS, with raging rush only averaging about 110 (about 15%) higher than rampage. enspells actually added about 10dmg/round, making axe/axe actually somewhat attractive. you can take my word (or not:D) that the WAR damage %s stayed more or less constant (within a couple %) the entire party.

given (a) and (b), it's patently absurd to think that a decent party is going to lose chain b/c a WAR decides he likes spampage. there's penumbral parties where the mild % change could make a difference, but if 1 melee dropping 10% damage at most means no chain, a mildly slow pull or a fight where no one has TP and the first one who does misses his/her WS is also going to lose chain.

WAR/SAM w/ GA is the most damage you can do on WAR. but if you like axe/axe or axe/joy, and gear for it appropriately, it's pretty silly to say that using such a combo is some sort of affront to your party members.

edit:

a note on epeen and maximizing

since i've been sillily focused on forcing out every last bit of damage from my character for years, i'd like to make a small comment on maximizing and what it's good for. considering my "rrraaghghhh damage!" attitude, one would think there's some dissonance b/w that and "use axe/axe even if it's worse, who cares? you still hold chain." i don't think so.

regarding XP parties, the main point of maximizing is pickup parties. many, many, many times over the years i've partied with decent to sub-decent people who i've never met, with possibly not quite the right jobs in party or not at quite the right camp, or whatever, and carried the party to an infinite chain by doing 40%-50% party damage with 2-3 other DDs in party. this is the main virtue of maximizing. first of all, you raise your own potential for getting XP (you can't always find your favorite heavy-hitters when forming/joining parties). second, you create great parties for people who may otherwise never see above chain 10 even at gcolibri.

"fuck those gimps!" you might say. that's your right, sure, but i like being able to have fun AND get XP whenever i want. if you spend more time saying, "lol u guys sux" than getting merits, the joke's on you because i probably have more merits than you and do more damage than you can, and i've done a lot of pickup parties:P.

the other benefit of maximization is dynamis and limbus. 4-5 good members can carry 10-20 bad ones. it may sound unfair, but events admit of several degrees of skill/gear, and a good leader makes use of all of it. you don't hurt anyone by lifting everyone up:P.

but when EVERYONE is hardcore maximizing and it's just epreening... that's just its own thing. this game is too easy to require that kind of power, except for in a handful of events (t3 einherjar first thing that comes to mind). i enjoy that kind of thing, but maximizing has more benefits than just the penis contest.

Edited, Mar 4th 2009 5:10pm by milich
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