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Should I...get a refund?Follow

#1 Feb 26 2009 at 10:01 PM Rating: Excellent
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I recently scrounged enough gil to buy a Maneater. I actually purchased it for 10k cheaper than expected, which was nice! I am still 72, so I have not had a chance to play with it yet. My problem is...that everyone on these forums seems to agree (as do I) that Great Axe is probably the reason dinosaurs are extinct. That being said, I am now doubting my recent purchase...

Typically in exp parties I will go /sam and lol for several hours whilst turning mobs into delicious pudding. Naturally I will /nin if the situation calls for it, but I do so enjoy /sam.

Ok, now to the part where I ask for advice/support/council. I assume I will be going /nin in situations like Nyzul where sneak/invis/shadows are just too good to pass up. While I have seen it several times on here before, for the sake of clarification, is it generally assumed GAXE even while /nin is superior to axe/axe? I know, I know just because you have the ability to DW, doesnt mean you have to.

My next problem: I do not have a joyeus and I most certainly do not have a ridill, nor will I ever. Should I even bother with axes? Is Maneater/IR Pick good enough to use in endgame situations if I have to /nin? Or should I just stick with GAXE forever?

At the moment I am using a Fourth Toporak, and working for my Perdu. So what do you think? Should I keep the Manny? I just dont want to have another pricey mog house ornament...

Thanks :D
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#2 Feb 26 2009 at 10:18 PM Rating: Excellent
In most all endgame situations, especially against the higher level hnm, Great Axe is going to perform better than Axes will. Personally speaking, I sold off my Maneater, cause even though I have Ridill to offhand, Great Axe (especially with /sam) gave me better results. If you don't intend to do any major end game situations like hnm fights, then Axe/Axe is not going to fall too far behind G.axe, so it'd be more of a preference choice.
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#3 Feb 26 2009 at 10:30 PM Rating: Excellent
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Use whatever but define what endgame is to you. You'll see this over and over: ****'s situational. It just is so be prepared to adjust to take advantage of the situation for fun or as necessary (you're a war; most of the time it's for fun).

In nyzul stuff outside of the actual NMs inside are just DC-T in toughness (psychflayers are a real ***** though) so it won't be a giant difference. Dynamis, outside of fighting demons, everything is relatively light enough to use anything. Limbus for the most part also won't matter as much but there is a floor that requires at least two weapon dmg types (just have axe|gaxe/spear to keep it simple).

Higher lvl mobs, like certain hnms, really need you to use your best weapon, so you'll want a gaxe for them unless you're needed to sc and need options (once you get king's justice you'll be able to stick with gaxe even for light sc, though if you're lucky you can still make frag with RR).

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#4 Feb 26 2009 at 10:39 PM Rating: Decent
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I don't bother with axe/axe anymore - I sold off my Maneater/I.R./Woodville's long ago and don't plan on buying them back any time soon for WAR purposes.

Ironically enough, my BST is almost Maneater/I.R. level, so I may buy them back for that, but on WAR I'll stick to my Perdu Voulge.

I really don't mean to sound 2008/2009 mainstream, but imo there's no reason for a WAR to own an axe nowadays, save off-hand Ridill/Joyeuse, or for the purpose of pure fun.
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#5 Feb 26 2009 at 11:02 PM Rating: Default
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Sold maneater, used money to fund the many other gear upgrades needed. Haven't looked back.
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#6TheSecretOfHorutoto, Posted: Feb 27 2009 at 1:20 AM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) If you don't have Ridill, don't bother with dual wield because you're only gimping yourself. Even if you do, Great Axe can outparse in most situations. And yes, GAXE even while /nin :). I usually /sam for EXP though, even with pickup parties.
#7 Feb 27 2009 at 4:07 AM Rating: Good
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Vlorsutes, Lord of Stuff wrote:
In most all endgame situations, especially against the higher level hnm, Great Axe is going to perform better than Axes will.
Meh, with Feint and Angon it really doesn't matter what you use, even at the highest tiers of endgame. If your shell doesn't have access to Feint and Angon ... wtf is wrong with your shell?
TheSecretOfHorutoto wrote:
If you don't have Ridill, don't bother with dual wield because you're only gimping yourself. Even if you do, Great Axe can outparse in most situations.
If all you care about is a list of numbers, then sure. Then again, if you're that gone then you also probably think that your parsing higher than a random group of variables is really making a difference to your exp/hr.

If your shell knows what they're doing in endgame: USE WHATEVER LOOKS THE MOST PLEASING TO YOU.

If you're looking at exp: USE WHATEVER LOOKS THE MOST PLEASING TO YOU.

Neither situation is going to be the difference between victory and defeat. You'll never hear "If you'd only parsed 0.1% higher we'd have (won the fight/kept the chain going)!"
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#8 Feb 27 2009 at 4:34 AM Rating: Good
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I think one thing to look at as well is how much are you able to merit. I personally have crap for time so I went simply with GA only so I can use my merits on GA instead of Axe/GA/Sword. While I know this may not be the best reason, a fully merited GA is WAY better than a non merited axe/axe setup and is a **** of a lot easier to pull off well (not needing insane gear to do similar damage). Look at what you have available to you in terms of gear and meritting and make a decision.

If you have the time/gear/merits do whatever the **** your heart desires.
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#9 Feb 27 2009 at 5:21 AM Rating: Decent
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capped axe at 269 and cleaned wepon of trial, just need Decimation fight for completion sake, but i'm sticking to my full merit Gaxe ;) never looked back on the maneater i sold ;)
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#10 Feb 27 2009 at 6:19 AM Rating: Good
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Places I use or would use axe:

- Merits sub Joy for fun.
- Rugaroo (Axe/Shield means more shots at actually swinging and not being intimidated)
- Draketrader Zlodgodd (Mistral Axe is better than missing your WS because of Jump spam)

Those are some, off the top of my head. I am tired of people saying there is no situational use for Axe. ******* Christ.
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#11TheSecretOfHorutoto, Posted: Mar 02 2009 at 4:26 AM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) lol @ everyone supporting gax > axe got a huge amount of rate down in this thread. Idiots just don't like to hear the truth.
#12 Mar 02 2009 at 4:30 AM Rating: Good
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You're the only one that seems to have taken a huge hit ...
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#13TheSecretOfHorutoto, Posted: Mar 02 2009 at 4:31 AM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) That's because i rated the others back up again.
#14 Mar 02 2009 at 5:34 AM Rating: Decent
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lolgaxe wrote:

If your shell knows what they're doing in endgame: USE WHATEVER LOOKS THE MOST PLEASING TO YOU.

If you're looking at exp: USE WHATEVER LOOKS THE MOST PLEASING TO YOU.


I would change to "Use whatever you like more", but i quote the spirit.

You like great axe? Use great axe. You like axes? use axes.


Great axes are easier to gear for though.

Edited, Mar 2nd 2009 9:09am by wyrmnax
#15 Mar 02 2009 at 5:45 AM Rating: Decent
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TheSecretOfHorutoto wrote:
lol @ everyone supporting gax > axe got a huge amount of rate down in this thread. Idiots just don't like to hear the truth.


Considering the only truth is that you can use whatever you please, but using a GAXE has become more favorable especially as /sam these days.

Edited, Mar 2nd 2009 5:59am by Theonehio
#16 Mar 02 2009 at 6:38 AM Rating: Decent
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If you're that worried about topping a parse, maybe you should level something else? WAR is supposed to be about versatility. Use Gaxe, Axe/Axe or Axe/Joy. Dosn't matter to me. What matters to me is when you're so horribly geared you'll fail no matter what you do.
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#17 Mar 02 2009 at 1:48 PM Rating: Decent
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What if clubs look most pleasing to me?
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#18 Mar 03 2009 at 1:46 AM Rating: Good
Then don't expect to be meriting long.
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#19 Mar 03 2009 at 3:40 AM Rating: Good
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RedshiftOnPandy wrote:
What if clubs look most pleasing to me?
Go ahead, unless you want to pretend that your damage is really the reason you're winning fights swiftly.
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#20 Mar 03 2009 at 12:43 PM Rating: Default
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After reading this thread im probably going to sell my maneater. I haven't used it for anything since I been back in the game. I sold my woodsville to help fund my nin so I was just holding on to maneater in case something popped up. I figure if I need to dualwield ill main hand iron ram and mabey off hand my tungi or something lol.
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#21 Mar 03 2009 at 12:47 PM Rating: Good
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RedshiftOnPandy wrote:
What if clubs look most pleasing to me?


There's this one time in merit camp...

One of those times when we were supposed to leave and people kept realizing they were like 100 xp away from merit, etc. I had equipped my warp cudgel in my main hand and just kept using that. I ended up doing a 300TP True Strike on the final mob with Warriors Charge and blew it away. Boy was that some lulz.
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#22 Mar 03 2009 at 12:54 PM Rating: Decent
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AlternativeOne wrote:
After reading this thread im probably going to sell my maneater. I haven't used it for anything since I been back in the game. I sold my woodsville to help fund my nin so I was just holding on to maneater in case something popped up. I figure if I need to dualwield ill main hand iron ram and mabey off hand my tungi or something lol.


if it were me, i'd sell the maneater. well, actually i wouldn't b/c 150k is sort of peanuts, but still, there's 2 dichotomies that need to be separated and looked at:

1) optimal setup [with or without luxury gear] vs comparable to mildly worse just-for-fun setup [with or without luxury gear]

2) luxury gear for optimal setup vs luxury gear for just-for-fun-set

i fully endorse "just-for-fun" setups (like people who like going SAM/RNG to merits even though it sucks:P), and i suspect a lot of people agree with me on that (that's our stance on (1)). however, i don't see the point in blowing resources on the just-for-fun setup if you could more beneficially use them elsewhere (that's my stance on (2), though if you really love how axe/axe plays, maybe the money doesn't matter).

you can feel 1 way or the other about (1) and (2), but it's not a matter of opinion that they are separate dichotomies/considerations.
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#23 Mar 03 2009 at 9:48 PM Rating: Good
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milich wrote:
i fully endorse "just-for-fun" setups (like people who like going SAM/RNG to merits even though it sucks:P), and i suspect a lot of people agree with me on that (that's our stance on (1)). however, i don't see the point in blowing resources on the just-for-fun setup if you could more beneficially use them elsewhere (that's my stance on (2), though if you really love how axe/axe plays, maybe the money doesn't matter).

you can feel 1 way or the other about (1) and (2), but it's not a matter of opinion that they are separate dichotomies/considerations.


I totally agree, especially with the SAM/RNG sentiment - it's probably my favorite job combo ever in all of FFXI. Is it optimal nowadays? No. Is it fun? Fuck yes it is. Sadly, I did sell most of my /RNG stuff to fund other purchases but I feel that it benefited me more on the whole.

As long as it's not something completely stupid, any combo can work. I personally get really excited when I see a DA proc on both axe swings, or when I kick on MNK. It's just visually pleasing. If you play the job right, in any aspect, it's really not gonna kill the XP. It's all about the fun.

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#24 Mar 04 2009 at 4:09 AM Rating: Good
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milich wrote:
i fully endorse "just-for-fun" setups (like people who like going SAM/RNG to merits even though it sucks:P), and i suspect a lot of people agree with me on that (that's our stance on (1)). however, i don't see the point in blowing resources on the just-for-fun setup if you could more beneficially use them elsewhere (that's my stance on (2), though if you really love how axe/axe plays, maybe the money doesn't matter).
See, the only two different pieces of gear (aside from the weapons, obviously) between a dual wield and a great axe build is basically an earring and a neckpiece. It's not like you have to get a radical different set of gear to make one work.

Which is something I really don't understand with people insisting one build doesn't work. They were probably the same people during the DW Onry phase saying the same thing about Great Axes.

I don't care if what people want to do THEMSELVES, but it's needlessly irritating when they come in and tell other people that what THEY want to do is wrong. "I use so-and-so personally, and find this-and-that to work" is fine in my book, but "Don't use so-and-so because it is dramatically inferior to this-and-that" isn't good, and a blatant lie, and will continue to be so until someone can decisively prove that one is the reason chains become infinite, and fights are won and using the other will constantly cause loss.
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#25 Mar 04 2009 at 1:21 PM Rating: Decent
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Personally, stuff like nyzul and other places where I fight DC-T mobs, axe and gaxe are essentially equal, and my BST has axe merits, so that makes axe/axe more fun. I have man/IR for BST, but I would probably keep them anyway
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#26 Mar 04 2009 at 1:51 PM Rating: Good
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lolgaxe wrote:
milich wrote:
i fully endorse "just-for-fun" setups (like people who like going SAM/RNG to merits even though it sucks:P), and i suspect a lot of people agree with me on that (that's our stance on (1)). however, i don't see the point in blowing resources on the just-for-fun setup if you could more beneficially use them elsewhere (that's my stance on (2), though if you really love how axe/axe plays, maybe the money doesn't matter).
See, the only two different pieces of gear (aside from the weapons, obviously) between a dual wield and a great axe build is basically an earring and a neckpiece. It's not like you have to get a radical different set of gear to make one work.

Which is something I really don't understand with people insisting one build doesn't work. They were probably the same people during the DW Onry phase saying the same thing about Great Axes.

I don't care if what people want to do THEMSELVES, but it's needlessly irritating when they come in and tell other people that what THEY want to do is wrong. "I use so-and-so personally, and find this-and-that to work" is fine in my book, but "Don't use so-and-so because it is dramatically inferior to this-and-that" isn't good, and a blatant lie, and will continue to be so until someone can decisively prove that one is the reason chains become infinite, and fights are won and using the other will constantly cause loss.


it's fairly clear to me that such proof won't be forthcoming. 1 of my oldest friends in the game (who leveled WAR with my MNK on dhalmel in bibiki bay:P) has always been sort of an A.D.D. player regarding weapons, swapping between axe/axe, company sword/something, GA for the past 5 years. he still does this (as does my other old friend who leveled WAR a couple years ago), and the parses don't change dramatically when either of them switch to axe/axe. the results might change if we were max haste and they were /SAM, but in that case, with me and other people i look for when forming parties in party, chances are we'd still have infinite chain even if 1 member occasionally went AFK or started skilling staff.

the "both setups work" is even more dramatic if the setup you're occasionally switching to is axe/ridill + sword merits;;.

speaking of axe/axe vs GA, here's a 22k/hr gcolibri pt (was short-ish, 1 chain 67 then we disbanded), in which my old friend used GA and axe/axe. pt setup is: SCH, BRD, COR, WAR/NIN, MNK/NIN (me), DRK/SAM, w/ march/march, enblizzardga, chaos roll and fighter's roll up fulltime.

Damage Summary 
Player               Total Dmg   Damage %   Melee Dmg   Range Dmg   Abil. Dmg  WSkill Dmg   Spell Dmg  Other Dmg 
DRK/SAM                  84917    25.56 %       45861           0          84       36754           0       2218 
WAR/NINvoker             95489    28.74 %       60453           0           0       29400           0       5636 
Pahn                    145464    43.78 %       96907           0         366       37314           0      10877 
 
Melee Damage 
Player            Melee Dmg   Melee %   Hit/Miss   M.Acc %  M.Low/Hi    M.Avg  #Crit  C.Low/Hi   C.Avg     Crit% 
DRK/SAM               45861   54.01 %     275/90   75.34 %   104/236   159.79     17   247/324  272.59    6.18 % 
WAR/NINvoker          60453   63.31 %    519/157   76.78 %    42/252   107.92     57    94/319  185.89   10.98 % 
Pahn                  96907   66.62 %    937/242   79.47 %    38/131    90.90    177    98/191  157.20   18.89 % 
 
Weaponskill Damage 
Player                 WSkill Dmg   WSkill %  Hit/Miss   WS.Acc %   WS.Low/Hi   WS.Avg 
DRK/SAM                     36754    43.28 %      53/0   100.00 %    190/1223   693.47 
 - Guillotine               36754   100.00 %      53/0   100.00 %    190/1223   693.47 
WAR/NINvoker                29400    30.79 %      40/0   100.00 %    181/1376   735.00 
 - Raging Rush              15077    51.28 %      19/0   100.00 %    181/1285   793.53 
 - Rampage                  13659    46.46 %      20/0   100.00 %    303/1376   682.95 
 - Steel Cyclone              664     2.26 %       1/0   100.00 %     664/664   664.00 
Pahn                        37314    25.65 %      45/0   100.00 %    356/1099   829.20 
 - Asuran Fists             37314   100.00 %      45/0   100.00 %    356/1099   829.20 


---

what's the point of showing this data?

a) we're at the most popular merit camp with 1 member doing 50% better than the next highest DD, with only 3 DDs, and carrying chain easily (ave. fight length 29.88 seconds). 1 DD is sacrificing damage for casting time and inferior sub, and 1 DD is DRK/SAM and parsing very low (read: is no where near living up to his potential).

b) the WAR's damage split was consistently around 60% melee, 40% WS, with raging rush only averaging about 110 (about 15%) higher than rampage. enspells actually added about 10dmg/round, making axe/axe actually somewhat attractive. you can take my word (or not:D) that the WAR damage %s stayed more or less constant (within a couple %) the entire party.

given (a) and (b), it's patently absurd to think that a decent party is going to lose chain b/c a WAR decides he likes spampage. there's penumbral parties where the mild % change could make a difference, but if 1 melee dropping 10% damage at most means no chain, a mildly slow pull or a fight where no one has TP and the first one who does misses his/her WS is also going to lose chain.

WAR/SAM w/ GA is the most damage you can do on WAR. but if you like axe/axe or axe/joy, and gear for it appropriately, it's pretty silly to say that using such a combo is some sort of affront to your party members.

edit:

a note on epeen and maximizing

since i've been sillily focused on forcing out every last bit of damage from my character for years, i'd like to make a small comment on maximizing and what it's good for. considering my "rrraaghghhh damage!" attitude, one would think there's some dissonance b/w that and "use axe/axe even if it's worse, who cares? you still hold chain." i don't think so.

regarding XP parties, the main point of maximizing is pickup parties. many, many, many times over the years i've partied with decent to sub-decent people who i've never met, with possibly not quite the right jobs in party or not at quite the right camp, or whatever, and carried the party to an infinite chain by doing 40%-50% party damage with 2-3 other DDs in party. this is the main virtue of maximizing. first of all, you raise your own potential for getting XP (you can't always find your favorite heavy-hitters when forming/joining parties). second, you create great parties for people who may otherwise never see above chain 10 even at gcolibri.

"fuck those gimps!" you might say. that's your right, sure, but i like being able to have fun AND get XP whenever i want. if you spend more time saying, "lol u guys sux" than getting merits, the joke's on you because i probably have more merits than you and do more damage than you can, and i've done a lot of pickup parties:P.

the other benefit of maximization is dynamis and limbus. 4-5 good members can carry 10-20 bad ones. it may sound unfair, but events admit of several degrees of skill/gear, and a good leader makes use of all of it. you don't hurt anyone by lifting everyone up:P.

but when EVERYONE is hardcore maximizing and it's just epreening... that's just its own thing. this game is too easy to require that kind of power, except for in a handful of events (t3 einherjar first thing that comes to mind). i enjoy that kind of thing, but maximizing has more benefits than just the penis contest.

Edited, Mar 4th 2009 5:10pm by milich
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#27 Mar 04 2009 at 2:06 PM Rating: Decent
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Nilatai the Intelligent wrote:
If you're that worried about topping a parse, maybe you should level something else? WAR is supposed to be about versatility.

What endgame scenarios are Wars supposed to be versatile?
I have never been asked to come to an event as War b/c of versatility. I get asked to go as War b/c I can do insane amounts of dmg and win a lot of parses.
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#28 Mar 04 2009 at 3:11 PM Rating: Good
In Nyzul I tank, I kite, I DD, I pull, I voke, I fight and I die.

That's versatility.
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#29 Mar 04 2009 at 3:28 PM Rating: Decent
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I use clubs personally and find true strike to do a lot of damage. So don't tell me clubs are inferior because they might do less damage. And I think Osode is really pretty too. Like weapons, it's all just gear, so whatever looks best to me is what matters since most of the damage is from debuffs anyway. Along as the chain is going, we don't need to kill any faster, right?

EDIT: Before some decide to spam rate downs because they're **** hurt, this all fits within the advice given in this thread. So please take that into consideration.

Edited, Mar 4th 2009 6:37pm by RedshiftOnPandy
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#30 Mar 04 2009 at 3:32 PM Rating: Good
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RedshiftOnPandy wrote:
I use clubs personally and find true strike to do a lot of damage. So don't tell me clubs are inferior because they might do less damage. And I think Osode is really pretty too. Like weapons, it's all just gear, so whatever looks best to me is what matters since most of the damage is from debuffs anyway. Along as the chain is going, we don't need to kill any faster, right?


it's funny, because you think you're making a witty, sarcastic joke, but your inability to see subtlety is also why you're wrong about "who does the most damage" etc. so, i think your joke is quite funny:D.
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#31 Mar 04 2009 at 3:40 PM Rating: Good
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What a fancy way of saying "you're dumb lol"

Edited, Mar 4th 2009 6:41pm by RedshiftOnPandy
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#32 Mar 04 2009 at 3:44 PM Rating: Good
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RedshiftOnPandy wrote:
What a fancy way of saying "you're dumb lol"

Edited, Mar 4th 2009 6:41pm by RedshiftOnPandy


if you're going to say "you're dumb lol", you have to try to spice it up. go big or don't go at all.

edit: completely off-topic of bickering with redshift, here is a strange observation:

i've noticed that most people who care about holding chain, getting high XP/hr, etc (like me and i think redshift), are longtime players with a lot of merits already. people who don't care and say "who cares about chain, i just wanna have fun!" are usually "casual players" who cite limited playtime (Because I Have A Job IRL!) for their poor gear and such.

now... i have a lot of merits. MNK had capped merits before ToAU came out. John CasualPlayer does not have a lot of merits (in fact, they will likely never have more than i had years ago). also, i play relatively often, and my insomnia allows me to stay up very late partying. John CasualPlayer does not play often (indeed, that's his fundamental, defining trait. I Can't Play A Lot Because I Have A Job). so... what the fuck? why isn't John Casualplayer moaning about XP/hr??? after he gimps it up and breaks my chain, i'm just going to join another party with better players and get more merits. he's going to log off and get back on the fishing boat or whatever Too Intense To Allow Me To Farm When I Play job he has irl. does anyone else see how strange all this is?


(of course, the answer to the strangeness is that John Casualplayer is just a fucking insecure whiner. in reality, lots of people have limited playtime and still manage to get a lot of merits and gil, expressly because they actually try instead of sitting around whining about no-lifers or whatever the fuck these idiots talk about.)

Edited, Mar 4th 2009 6:53pm by milich
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#33 Mar 04 2009 at 3:46 PM Rating: Decent
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That's versatility.

Dont get me wrong War is a very versatile job. Lets put it like this if you can go to the event /Sam you are not going for versatility, You are going to bust *** and War can bust *** with the best of em. No one should forget that ^_^
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#34 Mar 04 2009 at 4:06 PM Rating: Decent
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Derailing my "bickering" already? =F

I never merited a lot, don't have that many merits either (gets boring after 30min, changing weapons extends this by 3min, so getting the most exp/hr is ideal. Haven't tried meriting drunk/high though, might help with that problem), haven't played in a while but I've had the game since day 1 NA release though. That busy in real life business sucks, I tell you.

Edited, Mar 4th 2009 7:08pm by RedshiftOnPandy
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#35 Mar 04 2009 at 4:14 PM Rating: Good
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Haven't tried meriting drunk/high though, might help with that problem


What a tragic commentary on our times.

Edited, Mar 4th 2009 7:15pm by Lostkaws
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#36 Mar 04 2009 at 4:20 PM Rating: Good
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RedshiftOnPandy wrote:
Derailing my "bickering" already? =F

I never merited a lot, don't have that many merits either (gets boring after 30min, changing weapons extends this by 3min, so getting the most exp/hr is ideal. Haven't tried meriting drunk/high though, might help with that problem), haven't played in a while but I've had the game since day 1 NA release though. That busy in real life business sucks, I tell you.

Edited, Mar 4th 2009 7:08pm by RedshiftOnPandy


try it drunk.

really, i'm all for maximizing, but if you get so hung up on it that you look down on people for having fun with a mildly worse combo like axe/axe or SAM/RNG, i don't see why you don't just write a script in windower with "assist > attack > WS > hasso > etc" and have your friends get you merits for you. merits help endgame, of course, but if you don't have at least some fun with it, i'm not sure why you (or anyone else) would do it;;.

edit: p.s. the difference b/w axe/axe vs GA and osode-for-looks vs haub, or GA vs clubs, is that the looks argument doesn't affect actual gameplay (and can be remedied with dat swaps), and the club thing destroys your damage. mild hit to damage vs no damage at all = real difference.

Edited, Mar 4th 2009 7:21pm by milich
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#37 Mar 04 2009 at 4:39 PM Rating: Decent
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lolgaxe wrote:
See, the only two different pieces of gear (aside from the weapons, obviously) between a dual wield and a great axe build is basically an earring and a neckpiece. It's not like you have to get a radical different set of gear to make one work.



Yea, and about 21 merits in combat skills and a redoing of Cat1 merits, both of which lower G.Axe's potential greatly on the same character. I have no doubt that based on the merit settings of YOUR CHARACTER, Great Axe and Axe perform closely.

Quote:
Which is something I really don't understand with people insisting one build doesn't work. They were probably the same people during the DW Onry phase saying the same thing about Great Axes.


I've been a Great Axe **** from the beginning. Check the GrumpyWookie thread.


Quote:
I don't care if what people want to do THEMSELVES, but it's needlessly irritating when they come in and tell other people that what THEY want to do is wrong. "I use so-and-so personally, and find this-and-that to work" is fine in my book, but "Don't use so-and-so because it is dramatically inferior to this-and-that" isn't good, and a blatant lie, and will continue to be so until someone can decisively prove that one is the reason chains become infinite, and fights are won and using the other will constantly cause loss.



Do I think that if, instead of doing a damage of 37% with G.Axe compared to 30% of other DD's Axe, I lower my DoT to his level by using Axe our exp will suffer?

Yes, I do. Mathematically, it makes sense that if you lower something from one side of the equation, it will lower the other side of the equation as well (unless they are inversely related, which is not the case here).

A paragraph like that makes me think that you would endorse, say, a RDM subbing NIN and dual wielding in an exp PT while only hasting himself because there is a WHM in the PT (this happend the other night when I was leveling MNK). After all, it's WHAT HE WANTED TO DO.
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I suppose I could also call it "smallifying numberitude" but that sounds incredibly ***. Like, milich youtube playlist ***.
#38 Mar 04 2009 at 6:04 PM Rating: Decent
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RedshiftOnPandy wrote:
I use clubs personally and find true strike to do a lot of damage. So don't tell me clubs are inferior because they might do less damage. And I think Osode is really pretty too. Like weapons, it's all just gear, so whatever looks best to me is what matters since most of the damage is from debuffs anyway. Along as the chain is going, we don't need to kill any faster, right?

EDIT: Before some decide to spam rate downs because they're **** hurt, this all fits within the advice given in this thread. So please take that into consideration.[/i]


I wholeheartedly agree and to be quite honest I find this relaxed "hai guyz doesnt matter wut you use just haev fun lol" attitude kind irritating. All it does is allow and create gimp warriors. Yes, we have versatility and skill in lots of different weapons. That doesn't mean you should throw out all concept of what's appropriate or optimal. Experienced players should be responsible and give useful advice to new players on how to do their best instead of creating a new generation of noobs who think their inferior dd doesn't cause the rest of the group problems.

Edited, Mar 4th 2009 9:09pm by TheSecretOfHorutoto
#39 Mar 04 2009 at 6:09 PM Rating: Good
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Lostkaws wrote:
Quote:
Haven't tried meriting drunk/high though, might help with that problem


What a tragic commentary on our times.
But it's so true at the same time.

milich wrote:
pretend I quoted milich here.
I'm all for fun, start a party and go for it or play solo. But when I merit, I want merits asap (I'm sure I'm not the only one). Also, I've already tried to script that, doesn't work out too well in merit parties. But it works for Dynamis grinding though!

I wasn't actually trying to be funny with my comment, the point of it was to illustrate that the "whatever looks best" argument doesn't touch upon your damage output at all and places it solely on the support. If you compare one piece of gear vs another, you're not going to get a big change (most of the time at least). But in the end, it obviously adds up when you make the best choices in gear available to you. Weapons are no different than other equipment, except that it matters even more since if you use a stupid choice (clubs) instead of your best choice (great axe). It's a bigger difference than using the ********* body you can think of vs armada hauberk.

If you hate how great axe looks and the WSs, then DAT swap them to axes/swords/anything else and there's your 3min of fun while doing more damage.
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#40 Mar 05 2009 at 3:54 AM Rating: Good
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TheSecretOfHorutoto wrote:
Experienced players should be responsible and give useful advice to new players on how to do their best instead of creating a new generation of noobs who think their inferior dd doesn't cause the rest of the group problems.
Yeah, except that we're not talking about entire gear sets, just weapon types. We're supposed to be giving advice on what works, and whether people want to accept it or not, axes and great axes both work. This is exactly the same attitude a few years ago people had; that Great Axes were a waste of time, that there was no situation for it, and it was a complete waste of time to use it. The only difference between the two were at most one or two percent.

It's the duty of the experienced players to give useful advice on both how to do their best and how to enjoy the game, not to breed a bunch of Warrior machines that think that think one percent is justification to dismiss one weapon set up over the other.

You're not a noob because you want to dual wield, just like you're not a noob if you want to use great axes. This isn't about Haubergeon versus Osode, or Sniper Rings versus Ruby Rings. Those things actually make or break builds. The weapon choices, not so much. I don't care if you want to be a bandwagon player, that's your business and you're welcome to it. When said bandwagon mentality starts becoming the advice "experienced players" give is when we start to really get "inferior noob players."

Edited, Mar 5th 2009 6:55am by lolgaxe
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#41 Mar 05 2009 at 8:52 AM Rating: Good
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Couple of observations:

1) I agree with Milich's commentary wholeheartedly.
2) I have a lot of fun in merit parties. I care about my damage, but I am not that ****. Merits are merits. I will get them when I get them. I would prefer faster parties but if I get stuck with a party that does 15k/hr instead of 22k/hr I really don't care. I don't really have to focus on meritting to make or break anything that I do. It is not really that serious. In fact, meritting is about the least serious thing you can do in this game. Although if I had a make-or-break merit, I'd definitely focus on it.
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Quote:
Experienced players should be responsible and give useful advice to new players on how to do their best instead of creating a new generation of noobs who think their inferior dd doesn't cause the rest of the group problems.


It generally doesn't cause problems, ever. If you are still insinuating that anyone who dual wields is a noob and anyone who uses Great Axe is awesome, then you have missed the entire point of an entire side of the discussion, or carelessly ignored it. You may also be like redshift and miss the entire point/suggestion that people reading these boards and these arguments are well aware that clubs are a sh*tty idea.

You think that giving people advice that they should use whatever they want within reason when it doesn't freaking matter is a bad idea. I think that giving people advice that they should actually think dual wield damage is actually lol when it is not even close to lol is a bad idea. I think you are wrong.

I assume that people are intelligent enough to know the difference, and that if they need to pick someone or some people up, they would do what is appropriate. However if they are infinite chaining and killing too quickly (which can often be the case) then they should use whatever pleases them as long as it is something which has a decent base damage and dot that maintains that chain and relative xp/hr. Usually a smart player who reads boards such as these would be able to make that distinction before anyone swings a weapon.

But I am an optimist. I sincerely hope that people understand there are caveats to both sides of the argument.

Edited, Mar 5th 2009 11:55am by LordMnementh
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#42 Mar 05 2009 at 10:02 AM Rating: Good
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Mathematically, it makes sense that if you lower something from one side of the equation, it will lower the other side of the equation as well (unless they are inversely related, which is not the case here).


Or unless there is a rate determining step, which there is on gcolibri (other camps too maybe, not sure). It's why cor roll is a legitimate option. If you have players that are extremely well geared and paying attention, and a good setup, then odds are good your xp/hr will be limited by repops. If 29 seconds is the time required to keep up with repops, and we all use GA and kill the mob in 26 seconds, switching to A/A and killing the mob in 28 seconds will not slow down xp, and in fact may increase xp by making chain breaks less likely. If every war then decided to wear parade cuirass, vir subligar, bounding boots and a tiger stole, then of course your xp/hour would suffer, but as has been said repeatedly in the thread - this is about GA v A, and if you try to extrapolate from that to mean all gear is interchangeable, of course you will draw the wrong conclusions.

Quote:

edit: completely off-topic of bickering with redshift, here is a strange observation:


When I first got to 75, all I wanted was merits merits merits, in any size, shape, color, xp/hr form. I accepted pretty much any invite, and was often on just for the purpose of getting merits. Meriting was fun because it was new, and I generally had something new in each merit party - new merits used, new gear, etc. After a few hundred of those, the novelty wore off, the gear got pretty standardized, and often I had no new merits from one party to the next (here's looking at you, str merits). Now I rarely get on just to merit, but I will flag up while crafting, farming, campaigning, working from home, watching a movie, etc. I do want to finish capping out my jobs, but not nearly as badly as I wanted merits when I first started. So if the party sucks, I'd rather keep doing whatever else I was doing. Especially nowdays when if you are 7k from capping a job, you can go campaign that easily enough and get/maintain rank while you are at it. I view merits like going to the gym - sometimes I really enjoy it, and sometimes I go because I know it's good for me but fck it sucks, and in those instances I want a good setup/group or I'll just opt out.
#43mazmaz, Posted: Mar 05 2009 at 10:29 AM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) If I'm allowed to switch to axe/axe whenever I want, then I should be allowed to wear NQ Amemet on G.Axe. The difference in DoT between the 2 mantles is not even close to the difference between axe/axe and G.Axe.
#44 Mar 05 2009 at 11:07 AM Rating: Good
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If I'm allowed to switch to axe/axe whenever I want, then I should be allowed to wear NQ Amemet on G.Axe. The difference in DoT between the 2 mantles is not even close to the difference between axe/axe and G.Axe.


Sure. If you want to switch out amemet+1 for ammemet and leave your GA on and every other piece of gear the same, it will make a minute difference. But no one is asking about that, because there is absolutely no reason to do that. This thread is about axe v gaxe, and as has been said over and over again - if you like axes more, go for it, the difference is minute and if you will enjoy rampage spam more than rush spam, fine. I guess if white borders triggered something in your brain that nerfed enjoyment, amemet+1 --> amemet would increase your enjoyment, and at a very minute cost, so go for that too.
#45 Mar 05 2009 at 1:16 PM Rating: Decent
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This thread is ABSOLUTELY RIDICULOUS. Listen to yourself:

"Guys, we're killing too fast. Switch to Axe/Axe and NQ Amemets".

Is this a joke dude? You KNOW we're right, and all you want to do is argue for some lost cause.

What if a NIN decided G.Katana looks better?
What if a MNK decided Jujitsu Gi looks pimp and wore it to 75?
@#%^, what if a BRD decided they love the sound of their voice, and didn't use instruments?

Weapons and gear are the SAME THING. They even appear in the same menu. What's the point of leveling a job if you don't even want to perform at optimal?

Save that @#%^ing around with what looks the best for your LS who appreciate your antics or don't be surprised that strangers yell at you for being a Richard.

PS. Done posting in here.

PPS. I had no idea Alla censors automatically changed a certain word to "Richard".

Edited, Mar 5th 2009 1:17pm by mazmaz
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I suppose I could also call it "smallifying numberitude" but that sounds incredibly ***. Like, milich youtube playlist ***.
#46 Mar 05 2009 at 1:41 PM Rating: Excellent
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mazmaz wrote:
This thread is ABSOLUTELY RIDICULOUS. Listen to yourself:

"Guys, we're killing too fast. Switch to Axe/Axe and NQ Amemets".

Is this a joke dude? You KNOW we're right, and all you want to do is argue for some lost cause.

What if a NIN decided G.Katana looks better?
What if a MNK decided Jujitsu Gi looks pimp and wore it to 75?
@#%^, what if a BRD decided they love the sound of their voice, and didn't use instruments?

Weapons and gear are the SAME THING. They even appear in the same menu. What's the point of leveling a job if you don't even want to perform at optimal?

Save that @#%^ing around with what looks the best for your LS who appreciate your antics or don't be surprised that strangers yell at you for being a Richard.

PS. Done posting in here.

PPS. I had no idea Alla censors automatically changed a certain word to "Richard".

Edited, Mar 5th 2009 1:17pm by mazmaz


this post is so stupid. i'm kind of appalled by it.

listen, (really, listen to this, because it will actually make you smarter), one more time because this is important, listen:

suppose someone says something to you that you don't agree with. MAKING AN ANALOGY THAT GROSSLY OVERSTATES WHY THAT PERSON IS WRONG WILL NEVER WIN YOU THE ARGUMENT. STOP DOING IT.

JUST

STOP.

it is so brain-numbingly stupid, and you and redshift have done it numerous times in this thread. fucking stop it, you don't want to be this stupid, and if you ever argue with anyone again (regardless of the topic), you will be SMARTER if you listen to me right now.

imagine a domestic setting. john and jane live together. jane asks john not to eat her leftover general tso's chicken from the night before while she's at work. jane goes to work. john eats the general tso's chicken. WHY DOESN'T HE JUST BURN DOWN THE APARTMENT!? SHE DOESN'T WANT HIM TO DO THAT EITHER BUT HE STILL ATE THE CHICKEN! WHY DOESN'T HE MURDER HER WHEN SHE GETS HOME? OR EMPTY THE ENTIRE FRIDGE INTO THE TRASH? I MEAN WHAT THE FUCK, HE ATE THE CHICKEN!

do you see how painfully stupid this line of reasoning is? there are things called "details". also, things called "reasons". when people have arguments, they need to consider those things. when they (like you) stop doing so, they start acting stupid. in this context, that's exactly what it means to be stupid.

people have already said: using axes won't significantly alter party efficiency, and further, there's a reason some people use axes (it's a different style of play that they may enjoy). you can argue "more enjoyable play style is not worth dropping X% damage." but when you run in making obvious overstatements like "HURRRR WHY NOT TAKE OFF ALL YOUR GEAR" you're just being a fucking idiot. if you always argue like this, ONLY IDIOTS WILL TALK TO YOU OR TAKE YOU SERIOUSLY. please, please, please take this to heart.
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#47 Mar 05 2009 at 2:06 PM Rating: Good
milich wrote:
mazmaz wrote:
This thread is ABSOLUTELY RIDICULOUS.

That post is ridiculous.
Smiley: nod
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#48 Mar 05 2009 at 4:11 PM Rating: Default
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mazmaz wrote:
What if a MNK decided Jujitsu Gi looks pimp and wore it to 75?
To be fair, it does look pretty nice. Smiley: sly
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#49 Mar 05 2009 at 5:17 PM Rating: Good
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This reminds me alot of many DRK discussions I've seen about Scythe vs Great Sword. One is slightly worse but it's different and many people enjoy it. Will anyone ever get ****** off that a DRK is using GS in merits instead of scythe? No. So why should people get ****** off if a WAR wants to use axes?

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#50 Mar 05 2009 at 6:01 PM Rating: Decent
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I have no idea what drew me to the WAR forum or made me feel it was necessary to post here, but I would like to add something.


While Mazmaz was unnecessarily confrontational, I do believe there was at least some merit to his argument. I mean, how is changing weapons and spamming 1 ws instead of another such a huge change to "playstyle" that it warrants losing out on efficiency (even if only a percent or 2), when leaving out other only marginally better gear because you "dont like the way it looks" is generally frowned upon?

I guess if you just really really really like that rampage animation then sure why not, I'm not gonna throw a hissy fit about it. As has been stated the differences are too small to notice without analyzing every fight via parser. But when the purpose of any DD should be to maximize damage without hindering the party, why is it OK to do something you know does otherwise? Is it really that much more "fun" to DW for some people than use a 2h?
#51 Mar 05 2009 at 6:24 PM Rating: Decent
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Quote:
Is it really that much more "fun" to DW for some people than use a 2h?


Sometimes... YES! I actually prefer DW man/joy working on man/ridill. However if a party asks me to switch to G. Axe..I certainly will, but I enjoy playing DW more. No one has ever had a fit about me dual wielding instead of g. axe. I am going to have to agree with most of the people here... it's your dime do what you want. That being said it's the other guys dime too...if he boots your *** then don't cry.

Edited, Mar 5th 2009 9:25pm by Lostkaws

Edited, Mar 5th 2009 9:25pm by Lostkaws

My spelling and grammar is terrible

Edited, Mar 5th 2009 9:27pm by Lostkaws
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