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#1 Oct 11 2011 at 11:36 AM Rating: Sub-Default
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With a shocking 52-57% chance to Critically hit with magic Critical Magic seems to be what BLM are supposed to do now. The gear that increases Critical Magic Damage is exclusive to BLM, as is some/most of the Critical Magic Chance gear.
I'm pretty new to FFXI, spent my first two months running around and unlocking all the classes to give them a fair shake. I have decided that I want one of my end game experiences to be BLM/SCH and am still in the research phase. However I have never had an end game experience, my highest level character is 40 BRD.

What I'd like to ask is about gear, what people use, what is your one wish list to use, and why.
A census if you please.
My first instincts are to take a stat and just run with it but I don't feel I did it quite right this time but I am fond of potential being critically focused has.

Gear by Slot:
Primary Weapon:Maleficus
Secondary Weap:Wise Strap
Range Weapon:Aureole
Ammunition:White Tathlum Assuming I can use both throwing and ammo
Headgear:Selenian Cap With Augments: Magic Critical 10% Enmity -4
Earring 1:Hecate's Earring
Earring 2:Sorcerer's Earring Probably will exchange for +int -enmity
Body Armor:Yhel Jacket +1
Hands:Goetia Gloves +2
Ring 1:Galdr Ring
Ring 2:Excelsis Ring If I can find a better one then I'll macro this one.
Back:Twilight Cape
Waste: Elemental Obi(s) Karin - Fire, Furin - Wind, Dorin - Earth, Suirin - Water,
Else:Moblin Cest - Spellslinger spell crit rate +5%
Legs: Initial -ja Goetia Chausses +2 follow up spells Cybele Pants
Feet:Nebula Pigaches +1 Though may be safe to substitute them for Goetia Sabots +2 without dramatically effecting crit chance.

My wishlist favors critical chance above all else, putting me at 52% (57% with Moblin Cest), and several items doing increased critical damage.
Thanks to /SCH, Twilight Cape, and Elemental Obis I will have 15% bonus to those elements normally to hopefully negate not using an elemental staff. Though I don't know if you can change a belt in combat.

If people have a wishlist built for 95 BLM I would love to see it to compare and get a general sense of what I'm loosing out on for this build.
Post-its!


Edit: This is apperntly my first post, I read and research more than I speak and publish. I like to compare as much info as possible, side-by-side every chance I get.

Edited, Oct 11th 2011 3:09pm by Avatarded
#2 Oct 11 2011 at 1:54 PM Rating: Good
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Avatarded wrote:
My first instincts are to take a stat and just run with it but I don't feel I did it quite right this time but I am fond of potential being critically focused has.

In general, this is not a good approach to gearing any job in this game. Just like melees need a balance of attack, accuracy, DEX and STR, BLMs need a mix of INT and Magic Attack Bonus, with some +skill, Magic Acc and +magic crit stuff. For each slot, you should consider the marginal benefits of the options available to you. It isn't always a case of "pick MAB first" or "pick INT first", because how much MAB/INT/magic crit gets added is important when comparing the benefits of that option.

Maleficus: There may be some unusual situation outside of Abyssea where this outperforms lvl 51 NQ elemental staves. But if you're inside Abyssea with decent Atma support and/or get better gear, Maleficus starts to fall behind even lvl 51 HQ elemental staves. It definitely pales in comparison to a Trial of the Magians +2 damage staff.

Here's a thread where I did some quick and dirty calculations for Maleficus:
http://ffxi.allakhazam.com/forum.html?fjob=3&mid=130480726673128958&h=50

Sorcerer's Earring: keep it for your idle/damage taken set, but go camp a Moldavite Earring to use for damage.

Elemental Obis: I would get Hyorin (ice), Rairin (Thunder) and Anrin (dark) before the ones you listed.

Avatarded wrote:
Thanks to /SCH, Twilight Cape, and Elemental Obis I will have 15% bonus to those elements normally to hopefully negate not using an elemental staff. Though I don't know if you can change a belt in combat.

That's a bad idea. Nothing makes up for not using elemental staves because you can have elemental staves AND sub SCH to give yourself weather.

Not to mention that the level cap isn't 99 yet, so you can't cast Hailstorm on yourself. Thunder V is a BLM's best single target nuke right now and Blizzard V is its 2nd best (arguably still better than Thunder V in Abyssea). Optimizing yourself for Fire V is doing yourself a disservice.
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#3 Oct 11 2011 at 3:04 PM Rating: Decent
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Thanks for the reply, there's a couple of things I wanted to comment on, that by no means discredit you or your efforts. Two key notes the first is that there are a few aspects of equipment I find baffling if only for the complete lack of research-ability they have. The second my lack of end-content experience leaves me questioning what spells will be situationally favored.

svlyons wrote:
In general, this is not a good approach to gearing any job in this game...BLMs need a mix of INT and Magic Attack Bonus, with some +skill, Magic Acc and +magic crit stuff. For each slot, you should consider the marginal benefits of the options available to you...
I understand the method of determining an overall performance increase and gear priority. What I want is to take a simple, and often overlooked attribute and push it as hard as I can until it breaks. I am attempting to refine this until it is competitive, in it's current state I understand that it is not. 52-57% Chance to crit is intended to spark discussion so we can hopefully push away from this "do what I say because I said so or everyone else is doing it or only this method works" mentality of magics. With all variables factored, Damage over Time is the messiest formula you can look at, and there is a lot of efficient ways to do it. I'm looking to improve one that relies on crit.

svlyons wrote:
Maleficus: There may be some unusual situation outside of Abyssea where this outperforms lvl 51 NQ elemental staves. But if you're inside Abyssea with decent Atma support and/or get better gear, Maleficus starts to fall behind even lvl 51 HQ elemental staves. It definitely pales in comparison to a Trial of the Magians +2 damage staff.

Here's a thread where I did some quick and dirty calculations for Maleficus
What I am seeing in your link is the benefits of the staff vs the scythe exclusively. In that situation I agree. My question is as part of a larger whole. Arguably the ~10% chance by itself is of little conciseness in a control test with other non-crit gear. But if we were to use 40% gear (50% with Maleficus) as the control how does that effect the numbers with the elemental staff? Being one of the two items that produce "Increased Critical Hit Damage" not having it would reduce the critical damage in favor of increased base damage.
Critical Hits being a multiplier of base damage I am finding it impossible to nail down actual modifiers per critical hit to compare to base damage formulas.

svlyons wrote:
Elemental Obis: I would get Hyorin (ice), Rairin (Thunder) and Anrin (dark) before the ones you listed...Nothing makes up for not using elemental staves because you can have elemental staves AND sub SCH to give yourself weather.

Not to mention that the level cap isn't 99 yet, so you can't cast Hailstorm on yourself...
I omitted Hailstorm, and Thunderstorm, for exactly this fact. I chose to omit their corresponding Obi(s) due to not cluttering this post with things referencing uncontrollable variables. The elemental damage bonus is a footnote not the focus. Sadly for this reason I had to omit most high level Augment gear due to the inability to find hard information on the available augmentations. Should this information, and the critical modifiers, become available I can refine the gear list and start "casting in a vacuum" calculations.

Edited, Oct 11th 2011 5:21pm by Avatarded
#4 Oct 11 2011 at 4:24 PM Rating: Good
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You are making this way more complicated that it needs to be. Magic crits are crap. Gear that increases m.crit rate or augments m.crit damage is generally useless, unless it it good for some other reason (such as Goetia +2).

An un-augmented magic crit proc is said to increase damage by 10 MAB, which is substantially less than a 10% increase. Although the exact amounts by which some items increase m.crit damage are not well documented, in the cases which they are known they are all small. Let's suppose that you somehow manage to push an m.crit poc up to +25 MAB (I think that's probably generous). Then, even if you manage to raise your m.crit rate to 100%, you will be doing less than 20% additional damage, and far less inside abyssea.

So, while technically you are correct that since the m.crit rate and (m.crit bonus plus other MAB) are multiplied, you have to consider all of the gear in a nuking set to know the exact amount of bonus, a very quick back-of-the-envelope calculation will show clearly that the entire exercise is pointless.

If you want to figure out the actual damage bonus from a maximized m.crit gear, strictly as an academic exercise, then be my guest. In fact, I wish more people actually made the effort to learn how to calculate magic damage correctly. But don't expect to surprise anyone with your results. There has been a lot of math done here over the years (both correctly and no so much so), and we have a pretty **** good idea what works, both from practical experience and from verified calculations.

Meanwhile, if you want a target gearset for your BLM, then aim for something like this for nuking:

Weapons: HQ or Magian staves for every element.
Strap: Wizzan Grip
Ammo: Ombre Tathlum or Witchstone
(no, you can't use throwing ammo and ranged weap at the same time)
Head, body, hands, legs, feet: Goetia +2 set
Neck: Goetia, Saevus
Earrings: Hecate's, Novio, Moldavite
Rings: Galdr, Icesoul, Strendu, Sorcerer's, etc.
Back: Goetia, Searing, Kaikias'
Waist: Oneiros sash, cognition, sorcerer's, Obis.

There are, of course, other options, lots of situational/macro gear, and new stuff all the time. But if you start with the above, you'll be on the right track.


Edited, Oct 11th 2011 6:25pm by VxSote
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#5 Oct 11 2011 at 4:57 PM Rating: Decent
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First I'd like to thank you for submitting a gear set and correcting me on Range/Ammo, this will provide a helpful example when building a comparative understanding as I review the information. As such I have begun referencing the items listed with the wiki to improve my overall understanding of a more standardized magician approach.
I took some liberty with quoting you not to make you sound like you've said something you haven't, but to illustrate the points as they've been understood to me.
The original post I am quoting will of course be in its full original context above this one.
I appreciate I have a very difficult personality and am trying desperately to get info without starting a flame war. :X

VxSote wrote:
There has been a lot of math done here over the years (both correctly and no so much so), and we have a pretty **** good idea what works, both from practical experience and from verified calculations.
An un-augmented magic crit proc is said to increase damage by 10 MAB, which is substantially less than a 10% increase. Although the exact amounts by which some items increase m.crit damage are not well documented, in the cases which they are known they are all small. Let's suppose that you somehow manage to push an m.crit poc up to +25 MAB (I think that's probably generous). Then, even if you manage to raise your m.crit rate to 100%, you will be doing less than 20% additional damage, and far less inside abyssea.

So, while technically you are correct that since the m.crit rate and (m.crit bonus plus other MAB) are multiplied, you have to consider all of the gear in a nuking set to know the exact amount of bonus, a very quick back-of-the-envelope calculation will show clearly that the entire exercise is pointless.
These numbers seem particularly peculiar, I have never known crit to function (in other games) in such a manner, though I am lacking the first-hand experience in FFXI. I would really appreciate a reference to some source material to further my research. Every tiny piece of information I can get on the subject is vague at best and makes research in general amazingly difficult to make any type of headway. I look forward to testing it in game, at the moment I'm not at the liberty to do so, such asking others for resources to compare is the best I can do.

VxSote wrote:
If you want to figure out the actual damage bonus from a maximized m.crit gear, strictly as an academic exercise, then be my guest. In fact, I wish more people actually made the effort to learn how to calculate magic damage correctly.

You are making this way more complicated that it needs to be. Magic crits are crap... But don't expect to surprise anyone with your results.
I understand the intent of these statements to be good, and trying to prevent the setting of an unfair expectation of game mechanics. I appreciate the concern that over all efficiency may not be maximized in this method, as such advice on improving (rather than abandoning) the method is required

One of the biggest frustrations I have had in the past with Final Fantasy XI, coming over from other MMOs, is the fantastic throughput behavior when it comes to elitism. While not specific or exclusive to anyone in particular, a majority of the experiences I have had, even complements and accommodations come off heavy-handed and condescending.
I see this being a pattern that discourages the type of academic exercise that fills wikis with new info. Consequently sparse wikis with infrequent updates make the academic exercise all the more difficult to do creating a vicious cycle.





#6 Oct 11 2011 at 6:14 PM Rating: Excellent
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These numbers seem particularly peculiar, I have never known crit to function (in other games) in such a manner, though I am lacking the first-hand experience in FFXI


The first MMO character I ever played was an Erudite Wizard in Everquest back in the late 1990's. In that game there was a specific message indicative of magic crits "IE: Melphina scores a critical blast!! The Vengeful Gnoll takes XXX amount of damage". Magic crits were a lot more powerful than standard spells and made a noticeable difference.

However FFXI is not everquest, and magic crits didn't even EXIST in FFXI until the end of 2008. For five years after the NA release mages could not score a magic critical because s-e never thought ahead enough to code for it. There was some testing on magic critical hit numbers shortly after the system was implemented which are chronicled on the wiki here. The exact amount of damage increase a magic crit gives is not clear but it was estimated to be approximately 10 MaB worth, or in the ballpark of 10% worth. A melee critical raises pDIF by 1.0 which results in a significant amount of extra damage dealt over a normal attack (even more when you multiply it by crit enhancing traits/gear such as loki's khaftan or razed/sanguine atmas). A magic crit is much more limited and even though the exact amount of damage added is unknown, the magic damage formula IS known and the only good magic crit rate gear is that which already has good nuking stats anyway (Hecate's earring, goetia gloves +2). There are multiple reasons to not build for magic crit, but the biggest is that since magic crits don't increase damage by a significant amount it's more effective to gear for int/mab which affects every spell by a noticeable amount than to wear armor that doesn't do anything AT ALL when you don't score a magic crit (most of your nukes) in an effort to increase the way too low to begin with magic crit rate. Your original build was an all out magic crit rate build which still capped at around 60% magic crit, but came at the sacrifice of your elemental staff as well as an easy 27 int and 5-8 MaB on some pieces I can think off off the top of my head. VxSote is right that it's a far cry to expect a magic crit to increase nuke damage by anywhere near 25% even when geared for, but you can bet your bottom dollar that the ~~~27 int and 5-8 *ish* MaB plus your elemental staves will do that and much much more (especially if they're ToTM + 3 staves).

The gist of it is that S-E implemented magic crits very poorly. They could have been so much more but the sad reality is that while magic crits are awesome in other games s-e dropped the ball and they really do suck in FFXI. They're nice when they happen, but going out of your way to gear for them is always going to cost you in the long run. Hence the consensus that it's only good on gear that you would already be nuking in to start with.

Edited, Oct 11th 2011 8:22pm by Melphina
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#7 Oct 11 2011 at 9:56 PM Rating: Decent
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After reviewing the information found here, here, here, here, and here. I feel I fully understand how magic critical damage works. It is a shame that magic criticals function in this manner.
Due to the influx of critical magic gear I expect magic critical mechanics to change in the future though when that will be I haven't the faintest suspicions.

It would seem that in an effort to better understand why people are doing what they are, I should be reviewing the most basic building blocks of the game. Compared to the information found on the wiki and the subsequent source pages I feel like my user manual was a flimsy piece of paper that said "For more information; see reverse" on both sides.

As an exercise in practical understanding of the info I am receiving I've taken to writing a basic user-manual in Google Docs.

#8 Oct 12 2011 at 3:39 AM Rating: Default
Can't tell if troll...
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#9 Oct 12 2011 at 9:46 AM Rating: Good
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tertoonetwothreefour wrote:
Can't tell if troll...

I can only hope all of the 980 posts you have made are so insightful and contribute equally to the forum public.
In fact I often assume that every person I see on the internet automatically has all of the knowledge about every single subject that I have and take for granted every single day. Especially after they freely admit the subject is new to them. This must mean the magical instant transference of knowledge must still be fresh in their mind.
Furthermore I make it a point to insult these people when ever that assumption does not hold up because it means that they are the ones who are stupid, rather than myself for forming such wildly baseless theories. Not reading subject matter in its entirety allows me to more quickly form evidence to support this new theory.

This is me trolling, the me above is not, I hope that helps.
I think I'll quote this post in the future so I don't have to explain it again and waste my ratio of Posts to Research.

Edited, Oct 12th 2011 11:57am by Avatarded
#10 Oct 13 2011 at 6:41 AM Rating: Good
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Somwhat OOT, but you may wanna look at something I've been playing with.

This came about after achieving several +2 sets of Empyrean Armour and seeing just how strong the "Set" bonus is.

In Abyssea only the idea is use "atma of the Fetching Footpad" which gives MAB, Crit+ & Superior Conserve MP...... due to set bonus & "Augments Conserve MP" on +2, so far I have been happy with it.

Forcing Crit's is interesting but the % increase on each proc is not static, thus, forcing Conserve MP (which returns static based on amt of conserve) while still being geared for all around consistent best MAB & MATK seems like the direction to go.

Unfortunately, am unable to test this very well due to the fact that I'm still primarily using BLM for proc'ing & therfore not always shooting for max damage (to avoid killing mob too fast &/or pulling hate too much).

It is really effective on BLM burn mobs though, Cirein Croin for instance & also, so far seems to make AMII much more attractive (or at least MP>Damage effective)
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#11 Oct 14 2011 at 2:34 AM Rating: Decent
Rateups on original research into endgame BLM from a 40BRD? Allakarma has never meant less.
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#12 Oct 14 2011 at 1:13 PM Rating: Good
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#13 Oct 24 2011 at 3:09 PM Rating: Decent
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The magic damage formula is available. Take a 'normal' set and plug in the numbers.
Then take your set and plug in the numbers using the same mob stats.
You will need to take the average value
e.g. (no number crunching, pulling random numbers out)
'Normal set' does 1000 damage

Crit set does 900 damage no crit - 45%
Crit set does 950 damage crit - 55%
900*.45+950*.55 = 927.5 average

It may help if you know that base magic crit is only +10MAB and you're dedicating a lot of slots for a 50/50 shot at 10 MAB


Disregard - finished reading thread

Edited, Oct 24th 2011 4:10pm by Chriustwo
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#14 Oct 29 2011 at 8:24 PM Rating: Good
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I've been away from the game for a while. Was it ever settled if the Magic Critical effect had any impact on factors other than raw damage (such as enfeeblements or resist rates)?
#15 Oct 30 2011 at 11:52 PM Rating: Decent
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Guppie wrote:
I've been away from the game for a while. Was it ever settled if the Magic Critical effect had any impact on factors other than raw damage (such as enfeeblements or resist rates)?

As far as I'm aware, damage dealing magic spells are the only ones capable of scoring a critical hit. If it does have any effect, it's far from noticeable.
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#16Kevinlosolla, Posted: Feb 02 2012 at 7:50 PM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) i have full empy gear +2 and HQ staffs with elemental torque, Moldavite earring snow ring, diamond ring, penitent's rope, andthe ixion cape. i notice a good jump in damage when i do a magic crit. in abby (no magic crit atmas on) in abby i use kirin beyond and minikin atma. but when i get a magic crit to happen i see it jump from 3-4k to 6-7k damage the most i think i've done was 7050ish. out outside abby i have yet to see it outside abby but for me it happens so rarely with only 5% or 8% percent if i use the wise strap but i see a great jump when i get one and the first time i did it my ls member checked my gear to figure out what happened XD
#17 Feb 03 2012 at 12:05 AM Rating: Excellent
Kevinlosolla wrote:
i have full empy gear +2 and HQ staffs with elemental torque, Moldavite earring snow ring, diamond ring, penitent's rope, andthe ixion cape. i notice a good jump in damage when i do a magic crit. in abby (no magic crit atmas on) in abby i use kirin beyond and minikin atma. but when i get a magic crit to happen i see it jump from 3-4k to 6-7k damage the most i think i've done was 7050ish. out outside abby i have yet to see it outside abby but for me it happens so rarely with only 5% or 8% percent if i use the wise strap but i see a great jump when i get one and the first time i did it my ls member checked my gear to figure out what happened XD


Given that you've got the Goetia +2 set, that jump in your damage is likely from the Conserve MP set bonus proc kicking in rather than a magic crit. While a magical crit would likely be noticeable, it's not going to cause your damage to spike that much.

Edited, Feb 3rd 2012 1:09am by Vlorsutes
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#18 Feb 03 2012 at 7:20 AM Rating: Good
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Not just likely; AF3 set IS what's causing the spikes.
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