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Returning Scholar - What did I miss?Follow

#1 Jul 02 2012 at 6:04 PM Rating: Decent
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Hello fellow Scholars!

Once again, Vana'diel seems to have lured me back - the fact I have a computer capable of playing it again does help :) So again, I'm back playing my favourite job, Scholar. However the last time I left was right after Kaustra and Embrava were added into the game, so I suspect I've missed a bit.

So what have I missed over the last 8 months or so? Did Klimaform become usable by other jobs once the level cap went to 95+? Has the fact our helix spells now become usable at a lower level (and therefore available to a sub job) made us redundant? Did the Tupsimati ever become worth getting over a Magian Staff (and did SE ever reduce the 30k Alexandrite requirement?)

If you happen to be on Asura and see me in game, please say hi, I'll probably be the one casting random spells for a few days whilst I get all my macros set up again - coming from a background in computers, one of the biggest things I always liked about Scholar was 'programming' the job - i.e., getting all sorts of macro combinations set up to handle gear swaps, arts switching, stratagem usage, etc. I took a lot of inspiration from Kaeko both in terms of setup and in terms of what the job was capable of.

Good to be back :)

-- Dru
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#2 Jul 03 2012 at 7:15 PM Rating: Decent
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Okay, I take it from the lack of responses that either I didn't miss anything or most of the Scholars have left ^^ I'll try answer my own questions where I've found answers, please correct me if they're wrong.

Did Klimaform become usable by other jobs once the level cap went to 95+?
It seems they did make it available, and I can't see any evidence suggesting that was removed, so as best I can tell, our AF "weapon" is available to a /SCH.

Has the fact our helix spells now become usable at a lower level made us redundant?
Best I can tell, our main role in parties these days seems to be in Neo-Nazul where we're basically Embrava whores.

Did the Tupsimati ever become worth getting over a Magian Staff?
See my post about half way down on this a few months back that had some math posted on this - doesn't look like anything has changed, so no, our relic still seems useless other than "lol shiny!" value (and according to FFXIAH there's still only one in existence).

Edit: And according to the latest census, there's now none in existence, whoever got the first one has quit the game. Disappointing!

Did SE ever reduce the 30k Alexandrite requirement?
Don't appear to have, however they've made it "easier" to get. By easier, it seems to mean you only need to farm for half a lifetime now, not a whole one.

Still getting back used to playing with stratagems, spent most of last night playing with macros, had forgotten how much versatility I had when I can use multiple macro pages ^^ Probably another night or two before I start doing anything serious I suppose. Need to get my 95 cap done so I can get to 99. I've already got WHM at 90 and RDM at 50, so my two current "main" subs are levelled as far as they need to go for now, although I'll probably get WHM to 99 at some point as well (and BLM to at least 50). I'm the first to admit though that I'm not a white mage; I levelled it originally as a sub for my Scholar, and don't know it as well as I should, so probably need to work on that a bit. Scholar first though ^^

-- Dru

Edited, Jul 4th 2012 8:22pm by Drusenija

Edited, Jul 4th 2012 8:23pm by Drusenija
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#3 Jul 06 2012 at 12:03 PM Rating: Good
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Drusenija wrote:
Okay, I take it from the lack of responses that either I didn't miss anything or most of the Scholars have left ^^ I'll try answer my own questions where I've found answers, please correct me if they're wrong.

I think the job forums in general are less active these days, certain job forums more-so than others.

I don't play much of the larger scale events, but from what I've read, SCH has a similar niche to what SMN has had in the past: awesome 2 hour for specific events. SE also buffed healing for jobs that have native healing skill, but I don't know if that has changed SCH's role much.

I have personally enjoyed the carnage that can be wrought with Kaustra. Having duo'ed Apollyon NW in the past when the level cap was still 75, I find it amazing how quickly I can kill Kaiser Behemoth as SCH thanks to Kaustra.
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#4kimjongil76, Posted: Jul 07 2012 at 7:43 PM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) Since you left Sch became a heavy DD. Putting most front line DD's to shame.
#5 Jul 08 2012 at 6:12 AM Rating: Excellent
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kimjongil76 wrote:
Since you left Sch became a heavy DD. Putting most front line DD's to shame.

No, we really didn't. C rank skill in staff says otherwise, and Shattersoul while strong isn't going to outparse anyone other than a weak melee. Spells, even with Alacrity, don't deal enough DPS to match melee fighters either. You might feel omnipotent with your awesome 378 staff skill (394 w/ merits) but you're not fooling anyone into believing you're a 'heavy' DD. Proper melee fighters get 417 basic weapon skill to 433 if merited, raising their attack power and accuracy. Couple that with melee atmas or atmacites and your damage contributions will be shrugged off like a drop in the ocean.

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Try this out. JA Immorence "Luminhelix, JA Immanence Stone 1, WS "Shattersoul" You will one shot any exp for 35 mp. If also in a EXP, pick up the two hour, embrava your alliance and Kastra all exp mobs in yor path.

Try this out. Blizzard V. That is all. If you're getting XP in Abyssea, which is where the majority of people do, you can 1-shot most targets with a single spell. The need to self SC with staff or otherwise is pointless. Also, using Stone 1 creates a weak skillchain, since SC damage is based on the last spell. Stone IV can be cast without the need for alacrity and still chain. I realise you're trying to get most of the damage on your staff, but considering that involves building TP in the first place or ticking it up with Embrava / Adloquium (the former of which needing you to switch Arts) it's not really a strong option for 'quick' kills.

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helix's do wel now 250-500. You can also MB them off the SC I stated above.

Helix spells can be very powerful in the right circumstances, XP is rarely one of them though. The problem is they only hit for around 500 damage initially, with the majority of their damage being a slow DoT. This adds up wonderfully on NMs, but unless you're slowing your kills to maximise helix tics, it's a wasted tactic to use it on XP targets. It's main use outside of NMs is for self-skillchaining, which can be a cheaper alternative to using Blizzard V if MP concerns are an issue.

We have a lot of potential, and Kimjongil isn't completely wrong in saying we can deal moderate damage with Staff and Shattersoul (only when maxed on merits, mind you). Our nuke damage can actually exceed that of your average BLM with Ebullience and we can heal party members considerbly well with a mixture of Regens and Cure IVs.

The only caveat to all of this is that the majority of players will prefer to recruit BLM for nuking roles, WHM for healing roles, and obviously melee for DPS. Embrava is the one spell we have which makes us useful in the eyes of the masses, so don't be too surprised if you're invited solely for your 2 hour.
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#6 Jul 08 2012 at 7:33 AM Rating: Decent
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Glitterhands wrote:
The only caveat to all of this is that the majority of players will prefer to recruit BLM for nuking roles, WHM for healing roles, and obviously melee for DPS. Embrava is the one spell we have which makes us useful in the eyes of the masses, so don't be too surprised if you're invited solely for your 2 hour.


I figured that was probably the case still, and realistically, RDM has demonstrated on numerous occasions that the "master of none" approach means you get overlooked for the "masters", so playing a hybrid role you do ultimately expect that to be the case.

Thank you both for the feedback though; at the very least it's inspired me to get off my *** and get my staff levels back up - I've been sorely neglecting them sadly.
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#7kimjongil76, Posted: Jul 10 2012 at 7:28 AM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) Laugh.....
#8 Jul 10 2012 at 8:59 AM Rating: Good
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Don't follow any of kimjongil76's advices. They're just totally useless. Sure, SCH can self-skillchain, etc, but the damage will be terrible, specially when considering the stratagem, TP, and time used to do all of that. I can't deny it's fun to try that, just to see a skillchain + MB all by yourself. Unfortunately, on abyssea, you can just one-shot every non-nm with Blizzard V (8-9k nukes are not hard to do), and outside of it, your best bet for good DPS is alacrity spamming Blizzard V and Thunder V (and that actually does pretty impressive magic damage, even if it's not on par with melee damage).

One thing that has not been mentioned, btw, and that's something SCH is the best at now, its Stun. SCH/BLM, with proper buffs, equipment and stratagem usage, can get Stun recast to less than 10 seconds. That's more than enough to be able to be the only mage in charge of stuns, while at the same time, having more skill, thus macc, than a RDM would.
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#9kimjongil76, Posted: Jul 10 2012 at 10:11 AM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) Laugh
#10 Jul 11 2012 at 5:06 AM Rating: Excellent
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kimjongil76 wrote:
Laugh

Bold TextYou don't even read. Did my last post say that sch was the best STUNNER IN THE GAME from RANGED. "excluding blu for close raneg" If I could rate someone down I would rate you for trying to take creditfor what I said in last postand yet you rate me down.Bold Text


First of all, my apologies for that. I opened the thread and didn't read it until a few hours after, so didn't see your last post. I should have refreshed the thread.

However, in that same post, you say this...

kimjongil76 wrote:
Also You can do the same amount of dmg outside abby as in abby. Absorb int + hailstorn give + 32 int. Just get + 18 more INT gear and you equaled your MM atma.


Are you REALLY advocating subbing DRK for absorb INT??? So, in order to get an extra 20 INT from that, you sacrifice the 24 MAB that /RDM or /BLM would give, yet you say you'd get a damage increase? I stand by what I said, then, your advices are useless. Well, the stun thing was spot on, other than that, crap. I'm not going to discuss your damage claims on VW mobs, specially if you are using skillchains as an example. Given how frequently DDs WS on VW, it's practically impossible that you could set up such a long skillchain + MB sequence without being interrupted, thus ruining the skillchain. Not to mention that, in that time, spamming alacrity nukes will do more damage, for less stratagems, without the need of using TP nor getting close to the NM.

SCH is awesome, I proudly call it my main job, but many of the things it can do are not useful not practical. They can be fun to mess around, but will not serve other purpose.
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#11 Jul 11 2012 at 2:56 PM Rating: Excellent
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kimjongil76 wrote:
Also You can do the same amount of dmg outside abby as in abby.

If you can do the same amount of damage outside Abyssea that you do inside of Abyssea, then there is something horribly, horribly wrong with your atma setup.
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#12kimjongil76, Posted: Jul 11 2012 at 4:01 PM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) NO i don't advocate subbing drk for absorb int only. You should of read the thread I posted earlier onthis on the other website what many people gave great reviews over.
#13 Jul 12 2012 at 12:01 AM Rating: Excellent
They commented that Embrava and the more potent nuking abilities are what's changed since he was gone because Scholar melee is generally inferior to their nuking abilities unless it happens to be a mob that is highly resistant to magic damage.

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As for self skillchaining on sch its easy.... Very few people can intrupt your skillchain.

If you do Luminhelix and stone it does make distortion. Even if a melee ws's in between that it won't break the skillchain. It can only break if a melee launched a WS after distortionis made. As you have 100+ TP stored it shouldnt take you more than 3 second to walk up WS and walk out to solo darkness. What does the 1.5x dmg. And guess what, even if someone intrupts you, chances are they are doing a 96, relic, emp or mythric ws. And if any of those WS can SC of distortion, you just helped them do 1.5x more dmg off your 35 MP. So even if you don't SC you help the partys overall dmg output and monster kill faster. So if they 3k CATA, or the mnk, or sam WS as examples and then darkness is 4500-5k bonus, wouldnt that do as much as your t5 spell that does 3-6k?


Actually it'd be very easy to break the skillchain, and if a melee were to weaponskill in between, it would still break it. If someone used a weaponskill after an Immanenced Luminohelix, it'd be no different than if someone used a weaponskill right after I used something like Double Thrust to open Distortion. You have the opening act and the closing act of the skillchain, and no matter what, if someone performs a weaponskill in between the opening and closing act, barring some that have no properties such as Spirits Within, it's going to disrupt the skillchain you're trying to make. This is how skillchains have always worked since they were first added, and an Immanenced spell to open doesn't have any unique properties to ignore that effect.

You'd be better off using your stratagems to prepare for a quick Magic Burst if you see one coming up, because the two stratagems you used for Immanence could have easily been used for Alacrity and Ebullience so you could pop off a quick casting Tier V nuke to magic burst off a skillchain that the melees are going to be using, and do far more damage than your self-made skillchain would.

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The reason I did say absorb INT + Hailstorm is +32 INT is when I do things inside abby the only atma I rely on for DMG is MM. MM has 50 INT bonus. with those 2 spells I get +32 of it outside. and now with a few new VW and nysle gear pieces they added you can get 50-60 NP beyond what I used.


If the only "mage" Atma you're using inside Abyssea is Minikin Monstrosity, then that explains a good deal as to why you don't find your nukes that high damage wise. Throwing legitimately strong nuking atmas on like Beyond, Ultimate, or ****'s Guardian will see your nuking power skyrocket.

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1. Stun, what can use JA to get 15-20 seconds. 2nd weapon bash. This is actually a longer lasting stun than the spell. 3rd absorb TP. If you can steal 30-80 TP then the monster can't get off his TP move. All three combined can make you the best stunner if used right outside of rdm chainspell. And if gilmorse recast or quickcast is also proced you can instant recast the two stun spells.


The stun off Weapon Bash doesn't necessarily have a longer duration on it than the normal cast spell, since both can be cut down due to partial resists. Weapon Bash is one you can rely on as being another stun if Stun is down or if there's a Magic Barrier up, but you shouldn't rely on it to always last longer than the spell's duration. As for Absorb-TP, that's only potentially reliable if the mob is under 25%, because it is well known that if their HP is above 25%, they may hold on to their TP for long periods of time (well above 100 TP), so absorbing 80 TP while the mob has 210 TP will still leave it perfectly capable of performing a TP move. Below 25% they'll use TP as soon as they get 100 TP, which is where something like that might be useful, but above 25% it shouldn't be used with the intent of keeping the mob from using a TP move.

I'd also say that Blue Mage is still a far more reliable stunner than Sch/Drk would be, as they have a number of very short casting and recast stuns (Head **** and Sudden Lunge just to name a few) and Sudden Lunge has, when unresisted, arguably the longest duration stun in the game available to players. Lastly, unlike with your combo, you don't need a particular subjob for Blue Mage to have those options available.

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MBing drain does 300-2k depending on imob and MB as well as gear you use. Or hey MB nocrohelix for 500-800 on a DC mob or 200-400 on a NM. Off your own SC if you dont choose to t4-t5.


While I can believe 300 or so, I find 2k to be a rather unbelievable amount on any normal mob. Maybe on a mob that takes extra damage on top of your existing magic burst, gear bonuses, etc, but on a normal mob, given Drain's base damage, I find that a rather hard number to believe, since that's roughly a 400% increase from the base damage value at best.

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/rdm dispil, forget it we have Yes 24 MAB, yes enspells, and other spells. In some cases this sub is perfered. As it does offer something over blm and drk depending on what you do.


You gain Refresh, Haste, Phalanx, Enspells, and Bar-spells which, when coupled with as high Enhancing as Scholar can get, their own native buff spells, and the fact that they can Accession most of them, makes you arguably the most efficient buffers in the game. Sure there are things like Refresh II that Scholar doesn't get, but as a whole you're still gaining so much from /Rdm just by spells alone that it's hard to recommend anything else. Then you also have Fast Cast II, which is a 15% reduction to the cast time of all your spells, and that stacks with the cast time reduction for spells with the appropriate Arts up as well as Alacrity/Celerity.

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I had a few parties where mnks have tanked NM's. They asked me to self distortion. So when they WS + darkness they generate MUCH hate, and keep it, as well as the 1.5x extra dmg.


Monks should be reaching the enmity cap fast enough on their own to where they wouldn't need you to toss out a skillchain to build up that much hate. Although, I assume given that you mentioned them closing Darkness, that they're using Asuran Fists, which sadly says a bit about the Monks you're dealing with. A good Mnk inside Abyssea is going to be using either Victory Smite or Ascetic's Fury, and outside, if they don't have Victory Smite, they're going to want to have Shijin Spiral (if they're legitimately trying to be the main DD/tank). A Mnk that only has Asuran Fists and is trying to do any real sort of DD/tanking outside of Abyssea is going to have a hard time against War, Drk, Drg, Sam, and just about every other heavy hitting DDer out there nowadays.

Lastly, a good Sch, just like a good Blm, should be swapping staves on a regular basis depending on what spells they're casting. You're losing out on a lot of damage in your nukes if you're not casting in the proper elemental stave (Magian or otherwise) and if you're doing any curing you should be swapping into a Cure Potency staff routinely from there. A good Scholar should be rotating through spells at a fast enough rate that they wouldn't be able to build TP through Occult Acumen/Adloquium/etc to even get off a weaponskill, let alone do it frequently enough to contribute regularly to skillchains. Black Mage gets Occult Acumen, but you don't see them building up their TP and then going in to weaponskill. Why? Because a good Black Mage will be alternating staves often enough to where they couldn't get enough TP to weaponskill, which is the exact same way it should be with a good Scholar.

There's a reason that Scholars play more towards the style of Red Mages and Black Mages rather than melee. It's just more efficient as a whole to play that way than it is to be up there, attacking with weaponskills and the like. Just because you may have some traits that suggest you can play a certain way doesn't make it the best way to do it, and given how people play this game, they use jobs the best way that those jobs allow.
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#14 Jul 12 2012 at 1:57 AM Rating: Default
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To Vlorsutes:

I did state blu was the best close range stunner. Sch is for afar.

As for drain 1-2k. You and I have been through this as well. With Xsaeta dark elemental staff its easy to do 1-2k drains. You can go beyond that if you use our JA to enhanance the next dark spell as well.

As for Atmas. Yes I use three at different times, but always use MM. Even with beyond and ultimate, I still not one shotted some mobs or done as much as shattersoul. To be fair, i been working on the 99 staves so that may change.

But anyway thats my play style and I find it quite enjoyable. I not saying its for everyone. But I can point out about dive schs who have made double attack staves and followed my lead on my server now. As they see the job as fun, vs just a two hour then run away to mog house job.

On and out of curiousty, what server are you on? I love playing all servers, and I think I will join your server at the end of the month, and perhaps start a trend there.

Edited, Jul 12th 2012 4:01am by kimjongil76
#15 Jul 12 2012 at 2:16 AM Rating: Decent
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On and out of curiousty, what server are you on? I love playing all servers, and I think I will join your server at the end of the month, and perhaps start a trend there.


Dear lord, please do, we could use some comedy up ins~
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RDM can attain an almost static 50% reduction to recast time, SCH can over shoot this for a total of 60% reduction under Alacrity (provided you are wearing loafers and keeping dark weather on yourself)

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MACC is a joke, any job with access to mage gear can hit close the MACC cap on legion mobs, which is why my BRD/RDM can land slow/para/blind despite having only 150 skill (from /RDM.)
#16 Jul 12 2012 at 10:26 AM Rating: Excellent
Quote:
As for drain 1-2k. You and I have been through this as well. With Xsaeta dark elemental staff its easy to do 1-2k drains. You can go beyond that if you use our JA to enhanance the next dark spell as well.


Even with Xsaeta, 2k Drains "easy" is rather unbelievable. In situations like this and many of your other claims, if you want to support your points, you should offer screenshots and not just expect people to accept what you say at face value, especially since you've shown a propensity towards giving inaccurate information, belittling people for being "inferior" to you despite the fact your information is wrong, etc.

Between the faulty information you've dispensed in the past and some of the gear choices you've made on other jobs (Your Blu and Drk for example), you have to understand that people are going to be hard-pressed to accept your testimonies at face value.
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#17kimjongil76, Posted: Jul 12 2012 at 3:32 PM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) Blu joke yea, Drk no. Apoc is mine and has been for long time now. O And most likely will have a Rag by end of the month t go with that.
#18 Jul 12 2012 at 5:14 PM Rating: Excellent
Quote:
Blu joke yea, Drk no. Apoc is mine and has been for long time now. O And most likely will have a Rag by end of the month t go with that.


Just because you have an Apocalypse doesn't mean anything. You've been shown to make subpar gear choices on it before and the advice that you've given for Dark Knight (such as advocating /Sch over things like /Sam, as well as wanting to use an inferior set of Atmas in Abyssea over ones that would maximize your capabilities) is the point that I'm trying to get across. As easy as it is for players to make Relics anymore, having one isn't a sign that you know how to play the job properly.

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As for pics. I never seen ANYONE on this website post pics to claim anything. Now on ffxiah.com and a few others like BG yea thats common and doable. But no one post anything here, probably because it can't be done.


It is possible to directly post pics, as well as link to pictures offsite. That however is beside the point. Regardless of the individual, if they make an accusation or claim on here that is, for a lack of a better term, unbelievable, they've been called out on it before. I know I've personally asked for evidence of a person's claims when they've made outrageous statements, and if I were to make a statement that people might question me about, you can be certain that I'm going to have the evidence to support it if I'm asked.

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But you wont find a skillchain guide or magic skillchain guide for sch in any guide here.


You won't find a skillchain/magic skillchain guide for Scholar because, unlike Blue Mage, Scholar's is already there on any normal skillchain chart, as long as you know how Immanence works and know how to read a skillchain chart.

For example, you've mentioned the Distortion skillchain Luminohelix + Stone. Luminohelix has a Transfixion property because it is light based, and Stone has a Scission property because it is earth based. Since you need a Scission property weaponskill/effect to close a Distortion skillchain formed by a Transfixion weaponskill, any Stone spell would work.

With Blue Mage, it's no different than actual weaponskills, where sometimes the spell will have multiple properties, and it's not certain just by looking at the spell what the property is. With Immance, it's plainly obvious.

Quote:
As they stated. "be a sub par blm or embravva 2 hour thats all sch is good for.

So they are useless to help people who wish to level and learn about the job.


As someone that's played every job in the game extensively, has everyone of them very well geared and knows what all they're capable of, I can assure you that even as a "subpar" Black Mage, which they hardly are, their nuking capabilities far exceed their melee capabilities. Can they do okay damage with Shattersoul? Sure. No one's going to argue that point. Is it enough damage, even with a skillchain, to make up for what they're losing by not swapping staves in for nukes or not even nuking at all? Absolutely not.

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And if I recall right, I did post a link with my charater for ffxiah, with my apoc. Only to have people say its fake, not mine. SO I had no regret playing a joke on all the blus.


No, that's not what happened. You made the comment you had an Apoc, people didn't believe you, then you posted the link to your AH page, which shut them up as far as proving that you had an Apocalypse, but it in turn showed what other gear you use for your job. Not to mention pictures have popped up showing what gear you actively use during fights. I ask you this, why would you go to a Voidwatch fight as Drk/Sch and melee while wearing a Stoichieon Medal, Dark Rings, and a Glassblower's Belt on for the entire duration of the fight? You're losing out on a LOT using /Sch over /War or /Sam for next to nothing that /Sch would give you, there's no reason to be using a Stoichieon Medal, let alone wear it full time, nor should you be using Dark Rings full time. Those should be for emergency purposes when you're getting attacked only, not something you should be wearing full time. Lastly, there is nothing of value that Glassblower's Belt would offer you over a +Haste belt, as that is basically a Dragoon or Blu belt only.

Therein lies some of the problem. You advocate these ideas and how good they are, but the gear choices you've been shown to make suggest that you don't know how to gear yourself to your job's optimal capabilities, and therefore you probably aren't a person to take advice from. I'm not trying to belittle you, but given the gear I've seen that you use on your Dark Knight, if I had to choose between asking you a question about Dark Knight, or asking a Dark Knight that doesn't have a relic weapon, but otherwise has a very well fleshed out TP set, weaponskill set, Dark skill set, etc, I'm going to ask that other Drk, because they, to me, have the better understanding of what to do.

Edited, Jul 12th 2012 7:16pm by Vlorsutes
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#19 Aug 20 2012 at 2:30 PM Rating: Decent
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There may not be a SCH skillchain guide, but if you need a guide on getting owned there's a good one in the post right above this.
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