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Sch potential and why is it being overlookedFollow

#1 Aug 24 2011 at 10:14 AM Rating: Decent
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I just got Sch to 90 last week. I have full merits but my skill lvls are still a bit low due to Aby lvling but I have been soloing and bringing up my lvls every night. I have also searched the Sch threads for any and all info I can get about Sch. This brings me to making this thread. I keep reading on how ppl want Sch to get Cure V so they can help heal a party. I feel that healing in parties most of the time does nothing to set Sch apart from Rdm and even Smn as far as them being backup healers.

I came across a thread about Sch being able to self skillchain and I have been working on this aspect of Sch for the last 4 days. I have been soloing the worms in Aby La thiene and I can now skillchain and magic burst a worm to zero hp most of the time. If the worm survives the Distortion skillchain then normally the next tick of Luminehelix kills it. This brings me to my question. Wouldn't Sch be better utilized to enfeeble and DD with self skillchains instead of backup healing? I figure if u are inviting a Sch to heal then you most likely have your procs covered. Getting azure and pearl lights with Sch/rdm is really easy and the potential for melees to create Light and Dark off of our skillchains should make us even more desirable I would think. Am I wrong?
#2 Aug 24 2011 at 11:28 AM Rating: Decent
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asking for Cure V is mainly for "just in case we have to main heal" or the "holy crap" moments when we have to cure bomb if we're DD/enfeeble. Also, sometimes the mobs can go down so quickly that we don't always get the chance to self-sc (not to mention all the other DD almost constantly throwing WS's around, thereby ruining our chances for self-sc), add to the fact that self-sc'ing (not even including any potential MB's) can grab enough hate to where we get shot to the head of the hate list, and we don't have the def and life to always survive until someone else gets the hate back.

As much as I agree with you that Cure V wouldn't set us too far apart from RDM or SMN (I imagine it'd set us farther away from SMN, since they couldn't get Cure V), it makes it to where you don't "need a whm in abyssea" to be able to take on more than the random mobs.
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#3 Aug 24 2011 at 1:24 PM Rating: Decent
I love immanence and sc'ing on my sch! I played around with it some on EP mobs in bost<tab> (the sewers under Sandy) and then in Aby on shrooms. Both times will working on my Thunder staff. Typically I prefer blm -ga burning down mobs, but I wanted to bring out sch and play around. I actually found that sc'ing the shrooms with a MB was more efficient then -ga farming for that particular trial because they link funny (sometimes they do, sometimes they don't) and they path horribly. I also use sch on our duo/trio limbus runs, because when a mob uses its 2hr, I can switch arts and sc them out of invincible/perfect dodge.

However, I still think Cure V would be a nice addition to the job and allow us more utility in the LA side.

I usually on sc/mb when the mob is low enough that it will die, so I'm not worried about the hate issues. But I do agree with Vestrivan, that in normal pt situations, the chances of landing a sc are slim to none because of the melee DDs going off on ws constantly. On NMs, I can see the advantage when it is time to burn it down after proc, but the chances of being there on sch anyway is limited. Unless you are in a large ls that has all procs covered, then maybe you can come out on sch to help burn the mob down after the sit and wait game. Even in the newer content (Voidwatch, Neo-dynamis) you aren't looking to kill stuff fast, you are looking to proc it constantly, but puts sc'ing in the background.
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#4 Aug 24 2011 at 7:10 PM Rating: Good
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True skill-chain and magic burst scenarios are a lost art these days. I remember when people actually used to prepare for those and plan in advance who was doing what in what order to successfully achieve a skill-chain and which element was needed for a magic burst afterwards. These days I'm convinced some people are actually surprised and worried they did something wrong when they pull one off by accident ^^

The argument behind Cure V is and always has been that if you're to push the job as a hybrid mage job (which essentially is what Scholar is), then you need to at least be able to fill in either role. We'll never be the best healers or the best nukers (well... nuking I suppose is debatable from an efficiency perspective ^^), but we should be able to perform either role in a pinch, and switch on the fly at that. But because we're stuck at Cure IV which is now available on /WHM, our healer abilities aren't worth a **** in endgame because all we bring to the table is a slight MP reduction and slight casting time reduction. Any other mage job can heal about as well as we can, and with sufficient Refresh atmas to ensure you're not using all your MP, our MP reduction in Light Arts doesn't matter either.

As to why we're overlooked? I suspect part of it is still Scholar is one of the least played jobs in the game so you get people who don't know what we're capable of. That, and the fact that the game is all about dedicated jobs at the moment (unless you're low manning something in which case the jobs are very specific). Hybrid jobs aren't getting much of a look in at the moment because people want a person to fill a specific role, not a generalist one, and Scholar, despite our abilities, is still a hybrid mage.
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#5 Aug 24 2011 at 7:57 PM Rating: Decent
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Sorry double post


Edited, Aug 24th 2011 10:07pm by Darthmaulll
#6 Aug 24 2011 at 8:06 PM Rating: Decent
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Ok I just got done soloing in La Theine and it looks as though melee weapon skills do not interupt our magical skill chains. Megamaw Mikey popped and someone called for help. I started my self skill chain and before I could finish casting the second spell, a nin and thf both weapon skill in the middle of my skill chain. I was still able to complete my skill chain. It seems that once our skill chain is over, then other characters magic and weapon skills can take effect. Someone ended up magic bursting stun off of my Fragmentation.

As far as us grabing hate, Animus minuo really helps as long as someone else has hate as well. I can see more possibilities for sch to be a very good DD and crowd mitigater but sadly hardly anyone plays this job and getting concrete info on it is near nil.
#7 Aug 24 2011 at 8:19 PM Rating: Decent
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Darthmaulll wrote:
I can see more possibilities for sch to be a very good DD and crowd mitigater but sadly hardly anyone plays this job and getting concrete info on it is near nil.


This. As I said, we're not a popular job (according to the last census only Puppetmaster and Corsair had lower percentages of players playing the job) and whenever I do a /sea SCH on Asura, I often see SCH as the least active job, especially at the upper end (there often seems more people at the lower end, I assume because people level SCH as a mage subjob).

But especially at 90 where we get 5 stratagems now, we're a very versatile job, and with access to Refresh and Convert (along with Sublimation of course) we've got quite a large MP pool (charge Sublimation, use it when low on MP, cast Refresh, Convert when you're low again, rinse and repeat). By the time we get to level 99 we'll also have access to Haste from /RDM, so the job still has a lot of potential to it I believe.

Once everyone comes out of Abyssea (it could happen!) I think our popularity will pick up again a bit, but then again, I haven't done any Voidwatch content yet so that may just be wishful thinking.
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#8 Aug 25 2011 at 4:06 AM Rating: Decent
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SCH lack of popularity is not only because of being right now not that useful, but mainly because it's a "new" job, and primarily, a complex one. People are usually very confused about having to constantly use JA to improve our spells performance, the switching between arts, and the necessity of many, many equipment sets for our various spells and the inventory space it requires.

And why do we need Cure V, or a viable alternative? Because we're supposed to be equally proficient in both Light and Dark arts, and currently, we are proficient enough in Dark Arts (Almost as good as BLM on single target nukes) but totally subpar in Light Arts (We are as proficient or less as healers as a SMN/WHM, with the same tier of Cure, less refresh gear, and even less available cure potency gear). We do need Cure V, or a viable alternative, to be at least considered an option for main healing when no WHM is available. We should be worse than a WHM at main healing, but we should be an option over "No WHM, no event".

Edited, Aug 25th 2011 12:07pm by TaimMeich
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#9 Aug 28 2011 at 11:06 AM Rating: Good
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I feel that healing in parties most of the time does nothing to set Sch apart from Rdm and even Smn as far as them being backup healers.


I don't think SMN is really considered a /whm back up healer anymore. Just nitpicking.

And I think a lot of people do self-skillchain, I've seen many people mention it, especially when it was new of course.

And since you are talking more of the dark arts aspect of sch and its potential, and someone mentioned sch popularity, here is my thoughts on that.

SCH vs BLM was always kind of a balance of "BLM hits harder, but SCH outlasts them". Abyssea greatly changed that.

Now SCH can still last longer than BLM, but BLM can keep up with minikin, temporary items, and restores. Between Ga-3 and -Ja spells, BLM is pretty devastating in Abyssea. Also, BLM has many more procs than SCH does. So now the balance has shifted more in BLMs favor, though SCH is still a good job.

So BLM is more of a bandwagon job these days, like in the past, which kind of takes away from other jobs like SCH.

The same can be said of WHM, really. WHM now overpowers any other healing job.

BLM and WHM have become so good at their job compared to other mages, that the more hybrid jobs (RDM and SCH) get kind of left behind.

Edited, Aug 28th 2011 1:16pm by Annalise
#10 Sep 14 2011 at 5:10 PM Rating: Decent
45 posts
I don't believe Sch isn't being overlooked. It's amazing in all the right ways. It's a hybrid job that does exactly whats it's supposed to do. I used to be blm, and it hurt so bad when i leveled sch, and realized how much better it truly was (this is pre abyssea). We have strategems that increase the potency of cure spells. That means in abyssea our cure IV is more than Rdm. The reason i said in abyssea is we have atma refresh is abyssea so our mp proficiency doesn't matter so much anymore, honestly there's so much refresh outside now it doesn't matter either way. We now have blink and stoneskin. I mean think about it. I remember when i was first leveling sch, changin to /rdm to give enspells, blink, and stoneskin to the entire party. Then trying /nin and i remember playing with my friends, and they were all talking so much crap. You see rdm needs /whm when they main heal for the remove negative effect spells, sch uses addendem: white. So here i am /nin with all the spells i need to main heal, and enough mp to DD a little, as well as the ability to pull hate off the tank when his shadows dropped, tank for 6 shadows, that lets him get ichi/ni back up. At the end of the party no one could believe it. Whm, rdm, blm, what are those? we have a sch!

Blm has gotten the major update it needed. It's gotten it's mp problems more or less fixed, a way to lose enmity, an abilitly that lets it tank, many other things that doesn't make it worse than sch anymore. If we got cure V, then we'd be doing the same thing we did to blm back pre abyssea. I love sch, truly it's great, but i'm a sch, the day i want to be Whm, i'll level whm.
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#11 Sep 14 2011 at 5:40 PM Rating: Good
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We have strategems that increase the potency of cure spells. That means in abyssea our cure IV is more than Rdm.


That's like being proud of the fact that you could run a race faster than all the other participants in the Special Olympics, who are stuck with using wheelchairs.
#12 Sep 14 2011 at 5:47 PM Rating: Excellent
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riznobi wrote:
If we got cure V, then we'd be doing the same thing we did to blm back pre abyssea.

Cure V isn't the only thing WHM has over RDM and SCH in the healing department.

riznobi wrote:
I love sch, truly it's great, but i'm a sch, the day i want to be Whm, i'll level whm.

I've heard people say that about tanking on NIN. "If I wanted to tank, I'd go level PLD." The game has room for more than just one tank job. It should also have room for more than just one main healer job.
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#13 Sep 14 2011 at 6:37 PM Rating: Default
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I have way too much to add, so sorry if it's a little jumbled, or off.

-Fynlar
LOL. Okay first off you basically said rdm sucks (put it in same area as a mentally challenged person). I know that's not what you meant, i'm stretching it like you did my statement. I understand if we got cure 5, we'd be able to do a lot more. That some people look at a hibrid as being equal to both parts, but that isn't the case.

hy·brid (hbrd)
n.
1. Genetics The offspring of genetically dissimilar parents or stock, especially the offspring produced by breeding plants or animals of different varieties, species, or races.
2.
a. Something of mixed origin or composition, such as a word whose elements are derived from different languages.
b. Something having two kinds of components that produce the same or similar results, such as a vehicle powered by both an electric motor and an internal combustion engine as sources of power for the drive train.

Any job other than Whm can only cure for X health (cure 4), sch can do x+50%. 50% isn't something to say is gimp. Rapture increases curing spells by 50%. You can do this every 48 seconds at level 90. I think we achieve 2.b. on being a hybrid, we have simular results to blm/whm, but we arent equal to them.

Svlyons i'm sorry if i sounded like i wrote something that sounded like i didn't want to cure as sch. I remember smn's only healing back in the day, and hearing how much they hated it. I love my nin, i love tanking, i even love tanking on my war, rdm, dnc,even mana wall with blm, and /nin on sch. If someone let me back in the day i would of tanked blm/nin at 75. The thing is i dont want to only cure. (and i know we wouldn't just cure, but i dont want some random bad leader to try and tell me how to play my job, if we got better cure's some people will try to tell us to cure only, also there are a lot of bad sch out there, and they diminish people's belief in us, anyone remember drk from a few years ago?) I don't want to take whm's spot in the game. I want to be a sch as only sch's understand. The preparation involved in being sch is huge, way more than most jobs. I want to be a DD, i want to cure, i want to tank when needed, then let the tank get hate again. sch is a full understanding of the game, you have to act before your enemy. sch's two hour is amazing. Doesn't anyone see how strong sch is? we honestly shouldn't be able to complain. we're almost as good as rdm enfeeble, blm isn't, yet we put out blm damage with less mp. we cure better than any job except whm. Rdm is the jack of all trades, yet we're the king of mages, yet that's not good enough. look at all our strengths.
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#14 Sep 14 2011 at 6:42 PM Rating: Decent
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I didn't mean i wouldn't cure as sch, or that sch shouldn't cure, i just meant we have so much going for us, why not let other jobs have their own perks? whm was passed up over for rdm, i think SE doesn't want that to happend again. We can cure better than any other job with the exception of whm. Just listen to what i say, think about it. Please don't try to pick apart the little things. if you honeslty didn't think sch was good enough, you'd be on whm or blm. amiright?
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#15 Sep 14 2011 at 7:28 PM Rating: Decent
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Okay last think i'm going to post without someone else posting first. >.> Any body here solo at all? there were certain things blm could solo at 75, and no one else could, same with rdm. Then sch came and it could solo what only blm or rdm could prior to that, more efficient than either could. Sch has a toolbox, mage jobs don't. In fact it has so many that a lot are simply ignored. If you say that a certain ability is bad because another job has a higher tier spell, well it doesn't make sense. It would be eaiser hitting a macro and casting cure V, but that's not sch. We have to think. Why not complain we dont have stun? I would love a stun on Sch. Honestly i'm jumping on this rant with you all! i say we make blm useless too, give us aspir2, and well... i'd say AM2's but they suck, so they should give us tier 6's and cure V, then whm's will be overlooked too, and rdm would be useless. well. since we're making rdm useless too, i say we just get their refresh2, and their fastcast trait. With /whm we get access to haste spell, but whatevs thats for a party. Maybe let us learn gravity?

Sch is good as it is. Honeslty if whm got something to make it better, and rdm too, then i could see sch getting cure V, but untill that point it would make sch too strong.
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#16 Sep 14 2011 at 7:37 PM Rating: Good
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Quote:
-Fynlar
LOL. Okay first off you basically said rdm sucks (put it in same area as a mentally challenged person). I know that's not what you meant, i'm stretching it like you did my statement.


As far as healing goes? Yeah, that's exactly what I meant.

Being able to outheal a RDM nowadays is absolutely nothing notable. SMN can heal better than RDM.
#17 Sep 14 2011 at 8:03 PM Rating: Decent
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It's still not a valid point at all. let's go back to the special olympics arguement then. Sch is a job that's running a marathon, we do it all, just because someone runs faster than us doesn't mean we suck. We swim, and bike faster. You are stuck on one event and saying we arent good because of it, but thats not true. we still have our strong points. I understand if we ran 6 minute miles, then we'd be done with the marathon while everyone else is starting the third event.

I do understand that blm/whm has cure IV, but they dont have gravity or fast cast trait without /rdm. That any job subbing whm has cure's as strong as Sch, but that's not all we are. It doesn't define sch. We are a toolbox, if sch main cure's they use their strategems, that get replaced every 48 seconds. I guess i feel our toolbox overcomes any shortcoming our job has. When abyssea is over, sch will be on top again. I have a friend who loved whm, and blm. He wouldn't pick up sch, untill i convinced him, and he never played whm or blm again. He did more damage than any blm, and cured better than any 2 whm's, outside abyssea mind you. I understand abysite makes us look weaker than we are, but seriously we arent.

Edited, Sep 14th 2011 10:03pm by riznobi
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#18 Sep 14 2011 at 8:29 PM Rating: Excellent
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riznobi wrote:
if you honeslty didn't think sch was good enough, you'd be on whm or blm. amiright?

You are right. I started out with 75 BLM. Then I leveled SCH to 75. I noticed that they both had unique strengths and weaknesses when it came to nuking, and I enjoyed playing both and found situations to use both.

Then came Abyssea. I got both to 90. At which point, I couldn't find a reason to use SCH over BLM. The times I would use SCH was because we needed a healer.

Recently, I got WHM up to 90. Since playing WHM, I see just how much SCH lags behind WHM in healing. I currently haven't found a reason to play SCH. I'm either playing BLM, or WHM, or a melee job.

Even outside of Abyssea, I don't think I've ever been tempted to play SCH lately. When my friend comes along as BLM, I don't find myself thinking, "I wish he had SCH leveled to 90, he could be more effective with what we're doing right now."
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#19 Sep 14 2011 at 8:39 PM Rating: Good
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riznobi wrote:
I do understand that blm/whm has cure IV, but they dont have gravity or fast cast trait without /rdm.

When the level cap goes up to 96+, BLM will be able to sub RDM and have access to Cure IV.
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#20 Sep 14 2011 at 11:28 PM Rating: Excellent
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I'm only talking about the healing issue, here. I'm not saying SCH is useless as a whole or anything.

Right now, WHM is so far ahead in the healing game that it feels like everyone else is just sharing last place. My point was, being able to outheal a RDM isn't that notable. RDM is really a terrible healer. The only thing that made it any good as a healer in the past was massive stores of MP, which is something every job now has access to. You might as well be arguing about how you're able to **** farther against the wind than a RDM can, because that's about how useful non-WHM healers are nowadays.

Quote:
He did more damage than any blm, and cured better than any 2 whm's,


I don't know about the BLM, but I don't believe that other part for a second. Unless this SCH was only comparing himself to WHMs that were asleep, that absolutely should never happen. Your anecdote says more about the quality of WHMs your friend hangs out with rather than about what SCH's healing capabilities are.

Edited, Sep 15th 2011 1:31am by Fynlar
#21 Sep 15 2011 at 4:44 PM Rating: Decent
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My mistake Fynlar, I have so much to say, i jump around without making myself clear. This was pre abyssea. 75 cap was still in effect, and yes we'd go to the mount zhayolm, and as blm he could take half of a pudding's hp with a nuke. After that, he played as sch, and honestly he did more damage than any blm there, with the exception of one blm named quasit. Today his sch or blm cant do anything. He wont play on them anymore, so in al honesty it no longer holds true. He considers his blm/sch character a mule, a reminder of the old days. He has all af1+1, all af2, not all +1, but some, very close to everything. In mount zhayolm a blm could get a 10% damage bonus from an elemental obi, sch gets 20% because they can change the weather around them. Blm got 10 MAB bonus when nuking thunder/ice (if that's what you merited, maybe you merited something else, but it still stands that blm was strong 2/8 days), so really sch pulled ahead when it nuked 6/8 days, otherwise yeah it was close. This covers a little of the gap between a sch and blm. He also has the ability to use Ebullience, a strategem ability that boosts the spells potency another 20%.

As far as whm i know this no longer holds true today. When you look at everything sch has as tools, he honestly wasn't better than 2 a little over exageration, but he came close to what 2 whm's could cure. This is at level 75, remember. you have parsimony to halve mp cost, and sublimation for 4 mp a tick back then.

Honestly what i do remember about sch, i can understand why SE would be hesitant to give it power closer to whm's. 75 sch was a powerhouse, way too strong for what it should have been in my opinion, and i was a sch.
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#23 Sep 15 2011 at 6:30 PM Rating: Good
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riznobi wrote:
As far as whm i know this no longer holds true today. When you look at everything sch has as tools, he honestly wasn't better than 2 a little over exageration, but he came close to what 2 whm's could cure. This is at level 75, remember. you have parsimony to halve mp cost, and sublimation for 4 mp a tick back then.

Before WHM got Afflatus, SCH might have been viewed as an overall better healer than WHM. But after Afflatus, WHM became the favored healer for meaningful fights, while SCH was a favored healer for easy stuff like meritting on colibri. A big part of what made SCH so wonderful in those merits parties is Accession Stoneskin, which WHM can now do when subbing SCH.
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#24 Sep 15 2011 at 6:33 PM Rating: Decent
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svlyons wrote:
riznobi wrote:
I do understand that blm/whm has cure IV, but they dont have gravity or fast cast trait without /rdm.

When the level cap goes up to 96+, BLM will be able to sub RDM and have access to Cure IV.


I understand next level cap this statement is true. I dont understand what you meant by it. i guess unless you say something else, i'll just take it as trying to be informative, because it doesn't disprove anything i said.
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#25 Sep 15 2011 at 10:41 PM Rating: Good
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riznobi wrote:
svlyons wrote:
riznobi wrote:
I do understand that blm/whm has cure IV, but they dont have gravity or fast cast trait without /rdm.

When the level cap goes up to 96+, BLM will be able to sub RDM and have access to Cure IV.

I understand next level cap this statement is true. I dont understand what you meant by it. i guess unless you say something else, i'll just take it as trying to be informative, because it doesn't disprove anything i said.

It means that the flexibility that you claim is SCH's strength is slowly disappearing. Unless SE adds stuff to SCH over the next two level cap raises, SCH is going to continue to lag behind BLM and WHM. SCH hasn't really been getting anything to help bridge the gap.
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#26 Sep 16 2011 at 11:00 AM Rating: Default
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Okay thank you for finally being more specific. I completely understand that. Sch is getting weaker than it was, that is very true. It's just hard to understand what someone means when they take a little piece of what you originally say, and what seems a random comment into the mix.

I agree with you all 100%. With every update it seems sch is getting weaker, every piece of refresh SE throws into the game makes sch less impressive. The thing is compared to other jobs in the mage section of the game, sch isn't the best at anything. It's not really #1 at anything. I don't think it was meant to be. It is secod best, and in the one or two circumstances it's not second it's for sure third, and that is huge. Sch stil has it's merits, i think it's way more balanced than at level 75, and some people take that as being weak.

There are still a lot of situations i would take sch to events. I lowman, or solo a lot, and from this standpoint sch is great. My blm at 75 was mising less than 9 enfeebling skill, or he would of had every piece of enfeeble gear/merits. There were certain nms that i couldn't count on landing certain enfeeble spells 100% of the time. The thing is if you have a rdm, a blm, and a whm sch doesn't look so hot. The thing is if i say i can go whm, blm, rdm or sch, and i'm the only mage, sch is my job of choice.

gotta go. more later....
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