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Manifestation Sleep and EnmityFollow

#1 Jul 30 2010 at 2:52 PM Rating: Good
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The other night I was Main healing my alliance from the Blm pt. since our Whm left and I'd rather let the Dncs focus on damage. We had no Rdms.

Mp wasn't a problem, I had a Cor and Smn in the party. Everything was going very well till a couple Blms cycled out and lower leveled ones came in. We were on frogs, and as you know they link like crazy, and being resistant to light, it was up to the Blms to do crowd control.

As you can probably already tell, they were having problems sticking sleepgas. So I had two choices.
1. Manifestation sleep them myself
2. Voidstorm > alacrity klimaform the Blms.

I chose #2, and it worked out pretty well, but I'd have rather saved charges and slept them myself. But I was hesitant to do so because I was main healing and didn't want the extra hate.

So my question is does anyone know if manifestation sleep has the lowered enmity rates as the other nerfed spells, or does manifestation somehow break it?
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75NIN, 75BLM, 75SCH, 75SAM, 64BRD, 41RDM, 37DNC, 37WHM, 37WAR
#2 Jul 30 2010 at 5:01 PM Rating: Good
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64 posts
It has the hate of casting Sleep x times, where x is how many targets you hit. Yes, the base hate was reduced in the update, but it still can ramp up hate very quickly.
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Kasandaro
WHM90-SCH85-DNC90-THF90
To do: WoG19
I'm not neurotic about having a self-cure; why do you ask?
#3 Jul 31 2010 at 8:25 AM Rating: Excellent
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1,181 posts
Quote:
So my question is does anyone know if manifestation sleep has the lowered enmity rates as the other nerfed spells, or does manifestation somehow break it?


I honestly can't think of why Manifestation would break it. Sleep II now gives 1CE and 300VE (the same as spells like Regen and Bar-element) so the following:

Quote:
It has the hate of casting Sleep x times, where x is how many targets you hit. Yes, the base hate was reduced in the update, but it still can ramp up hate very quickly.

isn't really true at all. The enmity gained per monster is 300 VE (which completely wears off in 5 seconds so provided it's slept, the only lasting effect is 1 CE). It's not as if casting sleep on 10 monsters gives 3000VE on just one monster (in which case yes, there would be a big hate problem).

tl;dr - There's no reason to not do #1 anymore; hate is a non-issue provided you actually sleep them.
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Kegsay - 85SMN/85BLU/85SCH
Goldsmithing-60, Cooking-61, Synergy-60
Shaded Specs Obtained 20 June 2005

http://kegsay.livejournal.com/
#4 Aug 02 2010 at 2:49 AM Rating: Default
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508 posts
kegsay wrote:

isn't really true at all. The enmity gained per monster is 300 VE (which completely wears off in 5 seconds so provided it's slept, the only lasting effect is 1 CE). It's not as if casting sleep on 10 monsters gives 3000VE on just one monster (in which case yes, there would be a big hate problem).

tl;dr - There's no reason to not do #1 anymore; hate is a non-issue provided you actually sleep them.


Hmm. I know drain and aspir give huge amounts of hate under manifestation, possibly as much as every monster's hate on every single monster. There's reason to suspect that sleep might work in the same way (although it obviously needs testing.)
#5 Aug 02 2010 at 5:56 AM Rating: Good
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824 posts
Offensive magic generates hate on multiple targets individually. The only reason it seems like you're generating 'massive hate' is because it's quite rare to have somebody casting Flash/Stun/other CE generating spell on each target you hit, especially considering the recent changes to enmity generation; an unresisted Drain/Aspir is going to generate more than 300 VE.

Unless your Sleepgas are being completely resisted, even a half resist duration is enough time to bleed off all but the 1 CE on every target. As long as somebody else performs an action on your targets, you should be fine.
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rdmcandie wrote:
RDM can attain an almost static 50% reduction to recast time, SCH can over shoot this for a total of 60% reduction under Alacrity (provided you are wearing loafers and keeping dark weather on yourself)

rdmcandie wrote:
MACC is a joke, any job with access to mage gear can hit close the MACC cap on legion mobs, which is why my BRD/RDM can land slow/para/blind despite having only 150 skill (from /RDM.)
#6 Aug 05 2010 at 11:29 AM Rating: Good
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1,181 posts
Quote:
Hmm. I know drain and aspir give huge amounts of hate under manifestation, possibly as much as every monster's hate on every single monster. There's reason to suspect that sleep might work in the same way (although it obviously needs testing.)


If this were true, grabbing tons of too weak monsters and spamming manifestation+aspir/sleep/whatever could turn SCH into an uber tank. I've yet to hear of such things though.
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Kegsay - 85SMN/85BLU/85SCH
Goldsmithing-60, Cooking-61, Synergy-60
Shaded Specs Obtained 20 June 2005

http://kegsay.livejournal.com/
#7 Aug 06 2010 at 10:35 AM Rating: Excellent
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kegsay wrote:
Quote:
Hmm. I know drain and aspir give huge amounts of hate under manifestation, possibly as much as every monster's hate on every single monster. There's reason to suspect that sleep might work in the same way (although it obviously needs testing.)

If this were true, grabbing tons of too weak monsters and spamming manifestation+aspir/sleep/whatever could turn SCH into an uber tank. I've yet to hear of such things though.

Sounds like a job for... Libra! Gather up 6 really weak mobs. Have a 2nd mage come along. The SCH does manifestation Aspir while the other mage does single target Aspir on just one of the mobs. Do Libra on that mob, and then compare your hate levels.
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Lyonheart, like Eorzia, will be reborn in FFXIV!

FFXI veteran (Lyonheart and Lakiskline of Lakshmi)
1/467 on signed HQ Weskit!!!
#8 Aug 08 2010 at 9:21 AM Rating: Good
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That would work, but wouldn't be exactly accurate primarily due to 'initial pull' enmity which is first gained when the first action is performed on the monster. However, it would be an excellent way to easily see that there is/isn't 6x the hate of the other mage.
____________________________
Kegsay - 85SMN/85BLU/85SCH
Goldsmithing-60, Cooking-61, Synergy-60
Shaded Specs Obtained 20 June 2005

http://kegsay.livejournal.com/
#9 Aug 08 2010 at 9:44 AM Rating: Good
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824 posts
Quote:
If this were true, grabbing tons of too weak monsters and spamming manifestation+aspir/sleep/whatever could turn SCH into an uber tank. I've yet to hear of such things though.


There's only one way to tank anything on SCH and that's through damage; Strategems run out way too fast to be used as hate tools. Not that anyone's taking this concept seriously, I hope.

Right?

Besides guys, why would the actions performed on one monster affect the hate level of another monster? If you Sleep one mob, then start attacking a second, do the offensive actions you perform on one generate hate on the other? No. Manifestation does not function the same way other offensive AoE spells do; those spells are affected by the number of targets they hit, whereas Manifestation simply copies the spell cast onto everything within 10' of your initial target. You can hit 2 mobs or 20 and each target gets hit with a full-strength spell.

I'm all for speculation but this is so obvious I'm not even going to bother testing it.
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rdmcandie wrote:
RDM can attain an almost static 50% reduction to recast time, SCH can over shoot this for a total of 60% reduction under Alacrity (provided you are wearing loafers and keeping dark weather on yourself)

rdmcandie wrote:
MACC is a joke, any job with access to mage gear can hit close the MACC cap on legion mobs, which is why my BRD/RDM can land slow/para/blind despite having only 150 skill (from /RDM.)
#10 Aug 08 2010 at 9:51 PM Rating: Good
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5,457 posts
kegsay wrote:
That would work, but wouldn't be exactly accurate primarily due to 'initial pull' enmity which is first gained when the first action is performed on the monster. However, it would be an excellent way to easily see that there is/isn't 6x the hate of the other mage.

If you link the target mob, then neither player has any hate on it. Or you can also simply aggro the mob. You don't actually have any enmity toward a mob when it aggros. Or if you don't believe either of those statements are true, you can just grab a 3rd player to "pull" the mobs. Lots of options to eliminate that problem.
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Lyonheart, like Eorzia, will be reborn in FFXIV!

FFXI veteran (Lyonheart and Lakiskline of Lakshmi)
1/467 on signed HQ Weskit!!!
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