Wondering about SCH's role in a BLM party.Follow

Not a SCH, but I am a BLM. I would have said I'd want SCHs to a) give me ice weather, and b) otherwise act as a BLM, so T4 nukes etc. I'm thinking of the example at 75 being against puddings.

Now you say that at 75 you'd be essentially burning 2 strats every 3 mins? That's actually not a bad thing if those are the only ones your using, as the wiki on Stratagem's states that at 75 you get a total of 4 charges max, which recharge every minute (I assume 1 per minute), so every 3 mins you'd have a spare stratagem ready for what ever.

Edited, Oct 5th 2009 12:20am by MagingMartin

On a Nuke-for-Nuke basis, 2 ebullience nukes will demolish a single BLM nuke w/ obi/reliclegs. On a nuke-for-nuke basis, 1 ebullience nuke should be ~90% of a single BLM nuke w/ obi/relic legs. Anything less, and the SCH's doing something wrong.

If I'm in a PT w/ BLMs who don't have obis, I don't weather them. There's not enough benefit for them to count for the MP I'm spending on it. If they have obis, I weather them w/ no complaints. I rarely swap out of addendum: black to weather BLMs, however. *coincidentally, I'm usually w/ BLMs that only have thunder obis?*

I generally lend a more supportive role in a BLM party. (I only have experience with manaburning at the pudding camp on SCH.)

I have no problems with MP and keeping up with BLMs. I find that the BLMs are the ones that struggle with longevity. Therefore, the way I see it, our nukes help to stretch out BLM staying power. Generally, I use Accession followed by a weather spell before they get up and go, and then switch to Addendum: Black and assist with nukes.

Any seasoned BLM group want to stop and rest at Chain-3 at pudding camp so that in the next volley they can blitz puddings to get as high a chain as possible. At this stage, I also rest up, Accession a weather spell, fire up Addendum: Black and just repeat the process. I find the storm spells last long enough for each blitz.

I imagine it would be quite interesting for a SCH to babysit a group of BLM/SCHs. Although that would require an entirely different strategy. :p

I'm not a BLM, so someone mentioned it, and I took it for what it was worth. Either way, no obi = no weather spell. Obi = weather spell.

imo if the blms have obis using weather is a good tactic if they dont have them dont bother and if you fully merit stormsurge and the blms have ice obi hailstorm them and have the blms use bliz4 one volley should rape them with bliz4, ice obi, ice weather and +7 int.

but i dont think that +7 int will warrent not having a sch tier 4 nuke if blms dont have obis. When i have been in manaburns i haven't used weather much and blms dont seem to mind.

Those were all good points lyltia.

You do realize that you where lowering their actual damage output by giving them ICE weather for WIND spells, right?

Let's do some math based on Dynamis-Qufim a couple of weeks ago. BLM party was 3x BLM, 1xSCH doinitwrong, 1xSCH doinitright, & a COR or RDM (I forget).

On Fireday, in Double Dark weather:

Karin Obi & Relic Pants bump Fire IV up to ~1100 for BLM, doinitright is probably hitting for 1000.

Mr. Doinitwrong uses Accession > Thunderstorm. Assuming the best possible circumstances (i.e. the other 2 BLMs don't have Karin), then doinitwrong causes the following changes in damage.

BLM1 (hi) Fire IV -100, (& follow up Drain -75) = -175
BLM2 Thunder IV +100
BLM3 Thunder IV +100
SCH doinitright unaffected (he was self only weathering)
SCH doinitwrong -1000 'cause he Accessioning when he should be nuking.

For a total of -975 damage on any 1st volley of BLM nukes.

So KalessinMC, your proper role in a BLM party is to stay in Double Dark arts and nuke, nuke, nuke. If you need to throw out a cure pay the extra MP -- it is not worth the charges or time to get out of double dark arts.

I do appreciate your Accession for Shell IV & Protect IV, but this is only 3 charges (1 to Light, 2 back to DarkDark) every 30 minutes. Also, you should consider the possibility of a resist on any mob which needs four Tier IV nukes (like Pudding). If someone gets resisted then your nuke can cause the damage needed to finish the mob in the 1st volley. This implies your Tier IV nuke is "extra", however, four people using another nuke is more waste, and will lead to uneven amounts of MP, leading to longer kill times as three people use a Tier IV + something else. And letting the mob live longer is often dangerous.

So you have extra MP? Great, you can do all the sleeping or gravitying ;p

Why "Fire IV -100"? Thunderstorm doesn't affect Fire IV, at all. Plus he could use Thunder IV instead (details below).

But apart from that, I think there are like two ways to handle this situation without swaying too far from what's given (Thunderstorm on Firesday and other mehs):

a) One SCH is the Accession weatherman and nukes with tier III.
(The way it's happened, to say.)

That makes the Karin Obi BLM nuke with Thunder IV; gives about +80 damage for another 14 MP, if he has a Rairin Obi. And that's without Thunder potency merits, which can jack that number up to ~150. This is ignoring INT-5 compared to Mahatma Slops, hence this is an underestimate.

Nuking with Thunder III instead of Thunder IV drops damage from 1k down to about 700. To me, this plan does the following:

BLM1: +150 (+75, if you insist on Drain -75...)
BLM2: +100
BLM3: +100
SCH doinitright: 0
SCH doinitwrong: -300

Result: +50 damage each nuking cycle in exchange for -14 MP on BLM1 (Thunder IV instead of Fire IV) and -30 MP on SCH doinitwrong whenever you can't Parsimony, because of that one Accession. Compared to +21 MP with Parsimony for that SCH, I think this is a fair deal.


b) One SCH weathers himself and one Karin-less BLM each.

Your Karin BLM can stay just as happy, nuking in his beloved Sorcerer's Tonban. Apart from that, not much changes.

BLM1: 0
BLM2: +100
BLM3: +100
SCH1: 0
SCH2: 0

Result: +200 damage each nuking cycle in exchange for -66 MP on SCH doinitright and -6 MP on SCH doinitwrong once every three minutes.

Given some common nuke frequency, you'll end up with much more damage over time in the long run. Hence,



is pretty ignorant towards your actual capabilities. For a good sum-up, look at Lyltia's post.

/e: The heck, Lyltia beat me. ;_;

Edited, Oct 19th 2009 9:44pm by SKudo

Knowing some BLMs in my shell, I deliberately wouldn't weather them because it could either accelerate the rate in which they die (and thus be doing no damage for 5+ minutes) or could put the alliance at risk with a sudden shift in mob attention (Flail moves being obvious ones, but even some conal AoEs can mean a wipe). I know this wasn't a popular tactic the last time I brought it up, but it still stands.

Overall, I was never a fan of jumping between the Arts. Conserving the MP spent on them to otherwise toss out a few Parsimony'd T4 nukes in the same span would both offer comparable damage while affording the earlier mentioned pre-emptive enmity consideration. It's not glamorous for the BLMs and even may make the SCH seem lazy, but frankly, Statagem use isn't the only thing we should ever be cautious over.

It wasn't popular because it's not a valid argument for most situations.

Barring the obvious lack of faith on your teammates ability to do their jobs correctly (Keep hate for your tanks; keep the damage coming from your BLM's); what you're doing is actually worse hate-wise.

Why? A good SCH keeping his stratagems/weathers to himself should pull around 10~15%ish more hate than your best geared BLM; direct consequence of your higher damage output.

So not only would you be lowering the overall damage output, but you'd be concentrating the bulk of the hate on you. And last I checked, SCH wasn't exactly better at taking hits than BLM.
The only two ways around this is if you where also not nuking at your max potential, or using a specific -Enmity setup (That I do not see mentioned anywhere).

So either your teammates are truly horrible that you need to gimp them AND you to get things done; or you're just being greedy with your damage ("I want to parse #1 syndrome).
And since I know your linkshell, I really don't think it's the former.