Forum Settings
       
Reply To Thread

Wondering about SCH's role in a BLM party.Follow

#1 Oct 04 2009 at 12:52 PM Rating: Decent
**
323 posts
Hey guys, up till now I've been pretty much only soloing with the occassional party and the odd BLM duo thrown in and have loved it. My most recent duo with a BLM made me feel pretty sorry for him as I pretty much wrecked him in terms of both MP efficiency and nuke damage (was using Ebullience since MP wasn't a limitation).

I'm now 66 and in the middle of my first real BLM type party; myself and 3 BLMs. We're doing Qiqirn Archeologists in Aydeewa and theyre using Flare mainly with extra nukes to finish the mob off. They wanted Firestorm + Klimaform and I'm currently giving them Firestorm since they dont seem to be having any problems with resists. But basically I'm wondering on what I should be doing at 75 in this kind of situation.. I mean right now it's not too bad since I only really have to use up one stratagem on Accession every 3 mins for storms, but once I get T4 nukes I'm going to be essentially burning 2 strats every 3 mins as I'll need to put up Addendum: Black again.

How worth it is this? Is it only worth it if you have a full party with elemental obis or should I always be giving them weather? Those two stratagems I'm using every 3 mins could be used on Parsimony which would give me an entire T4 nuke for free. At what point does this extra damage get surpassed by the extra damage from weather?
____________________________
[Ragnarok]
Kalessin: DRG75 SAM75 BLU75 BST75
Heph: SCH70
#2 Oct 04 2009 at 4:19 PM Rating: Good
***
1,793 posts
KalessinMC wrote:
Hey guys, up till now I've been pretty much only soloing with the occassional party and the odd BLM duo thrown in and have loved it. My most recent duo with a BLM made me feel pretty sorry for him as I pretty much wrecked him in terms of both MP efficiency and nuke damage (was using Ebullience since MP wasn't a limitation).

I'm now 66 and in the middle of my first real BLM type party; myself and 3 BLMs. We're doing Qiqirn Archeologists in Aydeewa and theyre using Flare mainly with extra nukes to finish the mob off. They wanted Firestorm + Klimaform and I'm currently giving them Firestorm since they dont seem to be having any problems with resists. But basically I'm wondering on what I should be doing at 75 in this kind of situation.. I mean right now it's not too bad since I only really have to use up one stratagem on Accession every 3 mins for storms, but once I get T4 nukes I'm going to be essentially burning 2 strats every 3 mins as I'll need to put up Addendum: Black again.

How worth it is this? Is it only worth it if you have a full party with elemental obis or should I always be giving them weather? Those two stratagems I'm using every 3 mins could be used on Parsimony which would give me an entire T4 nuke for free. At what point does this extra damage get surpassed by the extra damage from weather?


Not a SCH, but I am a BLM. I would have said I'd want SCHs to a) give me ice weather, and b) otherwise act as a BLM, so T4 nukes etc. I'm thinking of the example at 75 being against puddings.

Now you say that at 75 you'd be essentially burning 2 strats every 3 mins? That's actually not a bad thing if those are the only ones your using, as the wiki on Stratagem's states that at 75 you get a total of 4 charges max, which recharge every minute (I assume 1 per minute), so every 3 mins you'd have a spare stratagem ready for what ever.

Edited, Oct 5th 2009 12:20am by MagingMartin
____________________________
Proud PUP of Phoenix.
Jobs: PUP COR RNG BLM NIN WHM 90
Member of Finale.
My Blog
#3 Oct 05 2009 at 4:54 AM Rating: Default
Scholar
*
74 posts
Assuming you are in a party with well gear BLM(s) (read: obis/AFv2 legs) then yes it is well worth giving weather as it will mean each of the BLM will be doing 15% more damage. I am not a SCH expert, but I don't think that 2 Ebullience Nukes is going to do the same damage as all the BLMs doing 15% more damage on nearly every nuke (they should be heavily favouring the the element you give them)

In a party with 'badly' gear player(s) then you're weather will only be increasing the BLMs output by 3% (33% chance of a 10% increase). In this situation I think there might be a case for keeping the stratagems for yourself.

The exact point where it is better to give weather or spam Ebullience is situational and you would have to make that call based on party size (bigger party favours giving weather) and party quality (better party members favours giving weather).

#4 Oct 05 2009 at 6:55 AM Rating: Decent
**
629 posts
Argettio wrote:
Assuming you are in a party with well gear BLM(s) (read: obis/AFv2 legs) then yes it is well worth giving weather as it will mean each of the BLM will be doing 15% more damage. I am not a SCH expert, but I don't think that 2 Ebullience Nukes is going to do the same damage as all the BLMs doing 15% more damage on nearly every nuke (they should be heavily favouring the the element you give them)

In a party with 'badly' gear player(s) then you're weather will only be increasing the BLMs output by 3% (33% chance of a 10% increase). In this situation I think there might be a case for keeping the stratagems for yourself.

The exact point where it is better to give weather or spam Ebullience is situational and you would have to make that call based on party size (bigger party favours giving weather) and party quality (better party members favours giving weather).



On a Nuke-for-Nuke basis, 2 ebullience nukes will demolish a single BLM nuke w/ obi/reliclegs. On a nuke-for-nuke basis, 1 ebullience nuke should be ~90% of a single BLM nuke w/ obi/relic legs. Anything less, and the SCH's doing something wrong.

If I'm in a PT w/ BLMs who don't have obis, I don't weather them. There's not enough benefit for them to count for the MP I'm spending on it. If they have obis, I weather them w/ no complaints. I rarely swap out of addendum: black to weather BLMs, however. *coincidentally, I'm usually w/ BLMs that only have thunder obis?*
#5 Oct 05 2009 at 12:12 PM Rating: Excellent
Scholar
**
880 posts
Just wanted to point out blm relic legs don't proc on weather, only on day effects. But please weather your blms friends with obis ; ;.
____________________________
Knightsls.com

#6 Oct 05 2009 at 1:23 PM Rating: Decent
**
513 posts
I generally lend a more supportive role in a BLM party. (I only have experience with manaburning at the pudding camp on SCH.)

I have no problems with MP and keeping up with BLMs. I find that the BLMs are the ones that struggle with longevity. Therefore, the way I see it, our nukes help to stretch out BLM staying power. Generally, I use Accession followed by a weather spell before they get up and go, and then switch to Addendum: Black and assist with nukes.

Any seasoned BLM group want to stop and rest at Chain-3 at pudding camp so that in the next volley they can blitz puddings to get as high a chain as possible. At this stage, I also rest up, Accession a weather spell, fire up Addendum: Black and just repeat the process. I find the storm spells last long enough for each blitz.

I imagine it would be quite interesting for a SCH to babysit a group of BLM/SCHs. Although that would require an entirely different strategy. :p
____________________________
RDM BLM DNC DRK WHM

Like attracts like.
#7 Oct 05 2009 at 2:54 PM Rating: Good
Avatar
**
957 posts
I'd say it depends on what you're doing and what setup.

If you're only with 1 or 2 BLM's; just cast single-target weathers trough Dark Arts or during Light arts breaks.

If you're in a party with a sizable number of BLM's (4-6); then going Light Arts -> Accession -> Weather every 3 minutes will yield better results than keeping 2 stratagems to yourself.
The exception to this is if the activity you're doing makes has the BLM's spread all over the place like for AoE weathers to hit everyone; like in Dyna.
____________________________
It is better wither to be silent, or to say things of more value than silence. Sooner throw a pearl at hazard than an idle or useless word; and do not say a little in many words, but a great deal in a few.
- Pythagoras
#8 Oct 05 2009 at 3:54 PM Rating: Default
**
629 posts
DarcAtvar wrote:
Just wanted to point out blm relic legs don't proc on weather, only on day effects. But please weather your blms friends with obis ; ;.


I'm not a BLM, so someone mentioned it, and I took it for what it was worth. Either way, no obi = no weather spell. Obi = weather spell.
#9 Oct 06 2009 at 12:13 AM Rating: Good
*
80 posts
And what about giving Hailstorm to increase INT for those BLM that dont have OBI? will the 7INT be worth it?
#10 Oct 06 2009 at 4:54 AM Rating: Decent
Avatar
**
257 posts
imo if the blms have obis using weather is a good tactic if they dont have them dont bother and if you fully merit stormsurge and the blms have ice obi hailstorm them and have the blms use bliz4 one volley should rape them with bliz4, ice obi, ice weather and +7 int.

but i dont think that +7 int will warrent not having a sch tier 4 nuke if blms dont have obis. When i have been in manaburns i haven't used weather much and blms dont seem to mind.
____________________________
FFXI (Long since retired)
Delsus
Server: Cerberus

FFXIV
Delsus Highwind
Server: Ragnarok
#11 Oct 06 2009 at 1:29 PM Rating: Excellent
**
824 posts
It really depends on the situation.

The first consideration should be the target. If you're farming mobs like puddings/statues/aerns/etc., it's usually just a waste of time/mp casting storms on the BLMs, as the damage boost is unlikely to reduce the number of nukes needed to kill each target; the MP you are spending on storms is not reducing the MP spent on nukes, so you are decreasing efficiency.

If you're fighting something that isn't going to die in one volley, Storms become much more worthwhile; that is, assuming they have the appropriate Obi of course. 1-2 BLMs in party get single-casts, 3-5 BLMs get Accession+Storm.

If you're fighting something that has a decent resist rate, Klimaform becomes viable as well. Even if the BLMs can floor resists on their own through gear, Storm+Klimaform will allow them to drop resist gear for damage gear, increasing overall DoT even further.

For example, take Tiamat as the target. In this case, Accession+Storm / Manifestation+Celerity+Klimaform is your best bet for overall damage. This will limit all other Strategem use once you have the cycle going, so you will not be able to use Addendum: Black for tier IVs; however, if you add the massive damage increase you're giving to each BLM to the damage you will deal spamming t1-t3 spells during Klimaform, you will see a favourable comparison to other Strategem strategies. Also, don't forget that Enlightenment can be used for a t4 spell whenever it's up.
____________________________
rdmcandie wrote:
RDM can attain an almost static 50% reduction to recast time, SCH can over shoot this for a total of 60% reduction under Alacrity (provided you are wearing loafers and keeping dark weather on yourself)

rdmcandie wrote:
MACC is a joke, any job with access to mage gear can hit close the MACC cap on legion mobs, which is why my BRD/RDM can land slow/para/blind despite having only 150 skill (from /RDM.)
#12 Oct 07 2009 at 7:11 AM Rating: Default
**
629 posts
Those were all good points lyltia.
#13 Oct 11 2009 at 11:53 AM Rating: Default
*****
12,815 posts
Just to chime in here:

Weather even without Obis can cause some pretty amazing boosts. I was tossing Icestorm while we were fighting Kirin for the extra INT to help on resists. Someone suggested flipping to Windstorm, and while it was only a random buff, we did land much higher Torando II's on him, to the point that one BLM wound up kiting Kirin. And no, he doesn't have the Obi.

As for EXP, no real point buffing mages aside from waggling e-peen about, even if they have Obis. Mobs die fast enough, and since even without all the best nuking gear I'm hitting numbers an AH-only BLM dreams of...
____________________________
Twitter: http://www.twitter.com/pawkeshup
YouTube: http://www.youtube.com/pawkeshup
Viddler: http://www.viddler.com/explore/pawkeshup/
UStream: http://www.ustream.tv/channel/pawkeshup-s-gaming-stream
Blog: http://pawkeshup.blogspot.com
Olorinus the Ludicrous wrote:
The idea of old school is way more interesting than the reality
#14 Oct 11 2009 at 6:11 PM Rating: Good
Avatar
**
957 posts
You do realize that you where lowering their actual damage output by giving them ICE weather for WIND spells, right?

____________________________
It is better wither to be silent, or to say things of more value than silence. Sooner throw a pearl at hazard than an idle or useless word; and do not say a little in many words, but a great deal in a few.
- Pythagoras
#15 Oct 12 2009 at 1:39 PM Rating: Decent
**
629 posts
Drakonite wrote:
You do realize that you where lowering their actual damage output by giving them ICE weather for WIND spells, right?



Not to mention theoretically lowering accuracy.

No one is saying that weather won't help a BLM who doesn't have the obi. We're saying that it's generally not that great of a benefit to offset the MP cost.

Without the obi, there's approximately a 33% chance of weather proc'ing on the spell. The bonus it adds is 10% damage. This equates to weather adding approximately 3.33% bonus to damage over time. The MP you're spending is more than 3.33% of the MP cost per spell. With the obi, however, you're gaining 10% DoT. This is enough of a bonus to make it worth the cast. If by chance there's already active weather for the spell, then casting the same storm is the same as adding 15% to the BLM's DoT. This is an even more MP efficient damage increase.
#16 Oct 19 2009 at 11:15 AM Rating: Default
Scholar
*
127 posts
Let's do some math based on Dynamis-Qufim a couple of weeks ago. BLM party was 3x BLM, 1xSCH doinitwrong, 1xSCH doinitright, & a COR or RDM (I forget).

On Fireday, in Double Dark weather:

Karin Obi & Relic Pants bump Fire IV up to ~1100 for BLM, doinitright is probably hitting for 1000.

Mr. Doinitwrong uses Accession > Thunderstorm. Assuming the best possible circumstances (i.e. the other 2 BLMs don't have Karin), then doinitwrong causes the following changes in damage.

BLM1 (hi) Fire IV -100, (& follow up Drain -75) = -175
BLM2 Thunder IV +100
BLM3 Thunder IV +100
SCH doinitright unaffected (he was self only weathering)
SCH doinitwrong -1000 'cause he Accessioning when he should be nuking.

For a total of -975 damage on any 1st volley of BLM nukes.

So KalessinMC, your proper role in a BLM party is to stay in Double Dark arts and nuke, nuke, nuke. If you need to throw out a cure pay the extra MP -- it is not worth the charges or time to get out of double dark arts.

I do appreciate your Accession for Shell IV & Protect IV, but this is only 3 charges (1 to Light, 2 back to DarkDark) every 30 minutes. Also, you should consider the possibility of a resist on any mob which needs four Tier IV nukes (like Pudding). If someone gets resisted then your nuke can cause the damage needed to finish the mob in the 1st volley. This implies your Tier IV nuke is "extra", however, four people using another nuke is more waste, and will lead to uneven amounts of MP, leading to longer kill times as three people use a Tier IV + something else. And letting the mob live longer is often dangerous.

So you have extra MP? Great, you can do all the sleeping or gravitying ;p
#17 Oct 19 2009 at 1:36 PM Rating: Good
**
824 posts
Quote:
1xSCH doinitwrong, 1xSCH doinitright


Honestly, get the @#%^ out with that doinit nonsense. It wasn't funny in 2005, it sure as **** isn't funny now.

Quote:
(SCH #1) uses Accession > Thunderstorm. Assuming the best possible circumstances (i.e. the other 2 BLMs don't have Karin), then (Accession SCH) causes the following changes in damage.

BLM1 (hi) Fire IV -100, (& follow up Drain -75) = -175
BLM2 Thunder IV +100
BLM3 Thunder IV +100
SCH unaffected (he was self only weathering)
SCH -1000 'cause he Accessioning when he should be nuking.

For a total of -975 damage on any 1st volley of BLM nukes.


So much wrong with this.

-How is Thunderstorm reducing your damage by 100? The only way that's happening is if he gave you Sandstorm.

-You're basing this entire theory of yours around the Accession SCH ******* around with buffs when everyone is nuking; if this is the case, his choice of Strategem usage isn't the problem, his timing is. Most SCHs would do the halfway intelligent thing and buff before it was time to nuke.

-You get a follow-up Drain but the other 4 nukers don't? That's some interesting, not-skewed-at-all math there.

-Thunderstorm is not the Storm of choice in this situation anyway. Firesday? Firestorm. BLMs don't have Karin Obis? I'm saving my charges; if BLMs want Storms, they'd better have their Obis.

Quote:
So KalessinMC, your proper role in a BLM party is to stay in Double Dark arts and nuke, nuke, nuke. If you need to throw out a cure pay the extra MP -- it is not worth the charges or time to get out of double dark arts.


Wrong, disregard.

Quote:
I do appreciate your Accession for Shell IV & Protect IV, but this is only 3 charges (1 to Light, 2 back to DarkDark)


It's 2 charges for Accession, 1 charge for Addendum: Black. What's DarkDark?

Quote:
Also, you should consider the possibility of a resist on any mob which needs four Tier IV nukes (like Pudding). If someone gets resisted then your nuke can cause the damage needed to finish the mob in the 1st volley. This implies your Tier IV nuke is "extra", however, four people using another nuke is more waste, and will lead to uneven amounts of MP, leading to longer kill times as three people use a Tier IV + something else. And letting the mob live longer is often dangerous.


What the @#%^ does this have to do with anything? You're telling me that when a mob has a tier4 or less of HP left, your BLMs all cast a tier4 at it? They do know what Drain does, right?

Quote:
So you have extra MP? Great, you can do all the sleeping or gravitying ;p


We have 2 Sleep spells, and when we use a charge on Manifestation to AoE it the recast time is doubled, not to mention reducing our MP efficiency. You have 4 sleep spells with no doubling recast times. Do some math.

Edited, Oct 19th 2009 3:37pm by LyltiaofLakshmi
____________________________
rdmcandie wrote:
RDM can attain an almost static 50% reduction to recast time, SCH can over shoot this for a total of 60% reduction under Alacrity (provided you are wearing loafers and keeping dark weather on yourself)

rdmcandie wrote:
MACC is a joke, any job with access to mage gear can hit close the MACC cap on legion mobs, which is why my BRD/RDM can land slow/para/blind despite having only 150 skill (from /RDM.)
#18 Oct 19 2009 at 1:42 PM Rating: Decent
Scholar
27 posts
Quote:
BLM1 (hi) Fire IV -100, (& follow up Drain -75) = -175


Why "Fire IV -100"? Thunderstorm doesn't affect Fire IV, at all. Plus he could use Thunder IV instead (details below).

But apart from that, I think there are like two ways to handle this situation without swaying too far from what's given (Thunderstorm on Firesday and other mehs):

a) One SCH is the Accession weatherman and nukes with tier III.
(The way it's happened, to say.)

That makes the Karin Obi BLM nuke with Thunder IV; gives about +80 damage for another 14 MP, if he has a Rairin Obi. And that's without Thunder potency merits, which can jack that number up to ~150. This is ignoring INT-5 compared to Mahatma Slops, hence this is an underestimate.

Nuking with Thunder III instead of Thunder IV drops damage from 1k down to about 700. To me, this plan does the following:

BLM1: +150 (+75, if you insist on Drain -75...)
BLM2: +100
BLM3: +100
SCH doinitright: 0
SCH doinitwrong: -300

Result: +50 damage each nuking cycle in exchange for -14 MP on BLM1 (Thunder IV instead of Fire IV) and -30 MP on SCH doinitwrong whenever you can't Parsimony, because of that one Accession. Compared to +21 MP with Parsimony for that SCH, I think this is a fair deal.


b) One SCH weathers himself and one Karin-less BLM each.

Your Karin BLM can stay just as happy, nuking in his beloved Sorcerer's Tonban. Apart from that, not much changes.

BLM1: 0
BLM2: +100
BLM3: +100
SCH1: 0
SCH2: 0

Result: +200 damage each nuking cycle in exchange for -66 MP on SCH doinitright and -6 MP on SCH doinitwrong once every three minutes.

Given some common nuke frequency, you'll end up with much more damage over time in the long run. Hence,

Quote:
your proper role in a BLM party is to stay in Double Dark arts and nuke, nuke, nuke.


is pretty ignorant towards your actual capabilities. For a good sum-up, look at Lyltia's post.

/e: The heck, Lyltia beat me. ;_;

Edited, Oct 19th 2009 9:44pm by SKudo
#19 Oct 19 2009 at 2:57 PM Rating: Excellent
Avatar
**
957 posts
For the record; I usually almost always let the BLM's keep their double dark weather in Dyna.
They've all told me they prefer their powered Aspirs/Drains/Sleeps than some extra damage. So I only AoE weather them before a timed -Ga.

____________________________
It is better wither to be silent, or to say things of more value than silence. Sooner throw a pearl at hazard than an idle or useless word; and do not say a little in many words, but a great deal in a few.
- Pythagoras
#20 Oct 26 2009 at 9:47 AM Rating: Excellent
Guru
Avatar
*****
10,653 posts
Knowing some BLMs in my shell, I deliberately wouldn't weather them because it could either accelerate the rate in which they die (and thus be doing no damage for 5+ minutes) or could put the alliance at risk with a sudden shift in mob attention (Flail moves being obvious ones, but even some conal AoEs can mean a wipe). I know this wasn't a popular tactic the last time I brought it up, but it still stands.

Overall, I was never a fan of jumping between the Arts. Conserving the MP spent on them to otherwise toss out a few Parsimony'd T4 nukes in the same span would both offer comparable damage while affording the earlier mentioned pre-emptive enmity consideration. It's not glamorous for the BLMs and even may make the SCH seem lazy, but frankly, Statagem use isn't the only thing we should ever be cautious over.
#21 Oct 26 2009 at 1:51 PM Rating: Decent
**
629 posts
I agree that some BLMs need to avoid being weathered sometimes. That's a valid point that no one should really argue with. If you're saying something like "all BLMs" or "all the time" then that's a different story.

Whether you're a fan of it or not, however, jumping between arts except when required is a very inefficient way to play SCH. Sure you're filling more roles, but you're filling them with MUCH less potential than if you choose a role and stick with it. If you have the luxury of deciding which role to fill for whatever you're doing, then choose whichever role you want and stick with it. If you don' have such a luxury, then go with whichever the leader chooses for you and stick with it. Obviously there are times when you need to shift gears and change your role in the middle of a fight, but that doesn't mean you should jump back and forth. Stick with the new role until it's the appropriate time to switch back.
#22 Oct 27 2009 at 12:16 AM Rating: Decent
Avatar
**
957 posts
Quote:
Knowing some BLMs in my shell, I deliberately wouldn't weather them because it could either accelerate the rate in which they die (and thus be doing no damage for 5+ minutes) or could put the alliance at risk with a sudden shift in mob attention (Flail moves being obvious ones, but even some conal AoEs can mean a wipe). I know this wasn't a popular tactic the last time I brought it up, but it still stands.


It wasn't popular because it's not a valid argument for most situations.

Barring the obvious lack of faith on your teammates ability to do their jobs correctly (Keep hate for your tanks; keep the damage coming from your BLM's); what you're doing is actually worse hate-wise.

Why? A good SCH keeping his stratagems/weathers to himself should pull around 10~15%ish more hate than your best geared BLM; direct consequence of your higher damage output.

So not only would you be lowering the overall damage output, but you'd be concentrating the bulk of the hate on you. And last I checked, SCH wasn't exactly better at taking hits than BLM.
The only two ways around this is if you where also not nuking at your max potential, or using a specific -Enmity setup (That I do not see mentioned anywhere).

So either your teammates are truly horrible that you need to gimp them AND you to get things done; or you're just being greedy with your damage ("I want to parse #1 syndrome).
And since I know your linkshell, I really don't think it's the former.
____________________________
It is better wither to be silent, or to say things of more value than silence. Sooner throw a pearl at hazard than an idle or useless word; and do not say a little in many words, but a great deal in a few.
- Pythagoras
Reply To Thread

Colors Smileys Quote OriginalQuote Checked Help

 

Recent Visitors: 14 All times are in CDT
Anonymous Guests (14)