Forum Settings
       
Reply To Thread

An endgame use for sch?!Follow

#1 Sep 26 2009 at 4:19 PM Rating: Decent
Scholar
****
6,580 posts
wuuuuuut
____________________________
[HTID]
DRG BRD TH4 RNG RDM75
Dragoon Equipment Guide
ArsDraconis wrote:
Ultima spends 10 whole seconds shouting "I'MA FIRIN MAH LAZER" like a 2004 valkurm melee waiting for SC
#2 Sep 26 2009 at 5:28 PM Rating: Good
Sage
Avatar
**
684 posts

Edit:

How is it that this strategy is somehow working now, it was proposed at least a year ago and thrown out due to helix's weak base damage on HNMs. Yet now they're landing it for upwards of 100 dmg on even the strongest HNM.

Hm, I wonder how long before SE decides to make AV immune to helixes >.>

Edited, Sep 26th 2009 9:39pm by Teiei
____________________________
Teiei of Lakshmi (formally of Garuda)
Tarutaru Male from Windurst
Favorite Job: White Mage
Jobs currently at Level 99:
ALL the Jobs!!!
#3 Sep 26 2009 at 5:45 PM Rating: Decent
**
516 posts
WTF I remember that topic thats awesome though. ib4 emergency update. and ohh god what did they do to the musics in that video ;_;
____________________________
http://www.youtube.com/user/loltarupup

My channel with FFXI battle music and hard to find songs that were not even released on Original Soundtracks.

I also plan on uploading FFXIV music when the game is released.
#4 Sep 26 2009 at 6:20 PM Rating: Decent
Scholar
****
6,580 posts
Also, don't hate the messenger!
____________________________
[HTID]
DRG BRD TH4 RNG RDM75
Dragoon Equipment Guide
ArsDraconis wrote:
Ultima spends 10 whole seconds shouting "I'MA FIRIN MAH LAZER" like a 2004 valkurm melee waiting for SC
#6 Sep 26 2009 at 9:48 PM Rating: Decent
Avatar
**
957 posts
This was theorized long, long time ago. The deterring factor was always getting anything above 4 SCH's with MV merits to try it. The best test I saw when SCH merits came out where with only 3.

Good it was finally proved to work tho :3
____________________________
It is better wither to be silent, or to say things of more value than silence. Sooner throw a pearl at hazard than an idle or useless word; and do not say a little in many words, but a great deal in a few.
- Pythagoras
#7 Sep 26 2009 at 9:51 PM Rating: Decent
******
41,289 posts
Until its nerfed into the ground. Smiley: laugh
____________________________
George Carlin wrote:
I think it’s the duty of the comedian to find out where the line is drawn and cross it deliberately.
#8 Sep 26 2009 at 11:10 PM Rating: Decent
***
2,976 posts
I don't think they'll nerf it. As mentioned, it takes a lot of organisation to actually pull it off and you can't spam it due to the recast timer on Modus Veritas. You need to coordinate your attacks well also, or the trick is wasted.

That said, I called this one a long time ago and it's great to see it's actually being taken serious now. I'm almost at full helix merits (4/5 dmg/acc, 5/5 MV duration) so maybe I'll try this out sometime :)
____________________________
R.I.P. Crystan FFXI
75WHM 75SCH 75RDM 75SMN
#9 Sep 27 2009 at 3:47 AM Rating: Decent
*
102 posts
WTF lol. ya i think SE gonna freak out and nerf the hell out of that;;. they did all that with 10-12 sch. wonder what would happen with the full 18 sch? O.o
____________________________
(Main Pup). other Sch etc .main server Bismarck. was on Phoenix for while

www.youtube.com/user/nyheen for puppetmaster NM solo episodes :)
#10 Sep 27 2009 at 5:01 AM Rating: Good
**
323 posts
Why are MV merits required in order for this to work? All the merits do is increase duration and if all the SCHs used MV at the same time duration would surely be irrelevent since the mob would likely be dead in one tic. What am I missing?
____________________________
[Ragnarok]
Kalessin: DRG75 SAM75 BLU75 BST75
Heph: SCH70
#11 Sep 27 2009 at 5:35 AM Rating: Decent
Jack of All Trades
******
28,999 posts
Quote:
I don't think they'll nerf it. As mentioned, it takes a lot of organisation to actually pull it off and you can't spam it due to the recast timer on Modus Veritas. You need to coordinate your attacks well also, or the trick is wasted.


Oh, they'll nerf it once someone actually kills AV with it.

Taking coordination to perform has never stopped them from nerfing past AV-killing methods, and they're going to keep doing it until we stumble across their "proper" way of killing it. Unfortunately for us, they haven't really given us too much help as far as deciphering this proper method.

Quote:
Why are MV merits required in order for this to work? All the merits do is increase duration and if all the SCHs used MV at the same time duration would surely be irrelevent since the mob would likely be dead in one tic. What am I missing?


Because it's easily possible to use too much MV to the point where it won't even last for one tic, nullifying the entire effort. You need to have fully merited MVs in order to get in as many MVs as possible while still allowing that one tick to get in (supposedly, the magic number is 9 merited MVs, any more than that seems to make the helix fail immediately?), and you also need very precise timing on those MVs in order to get that one tick in (using all the MVs will immediately drop the remaining helix duration to roughly 1-2 seconds, and the tick must occur during this time). Because of this, you need to test a helix on something else prior to fighting whatever your Mega Boss is, just to be certain on when the helix ticks are occuring.

Edited, Sep 27th 2009 9:46am by Fynlar
#12 Sep 27 2009 at 6:34 AM Rating: Decent
**
629 posts
Fynlar wrote:
Because it's easily possible to use too much MV to the point where it won't even last for one tic, nullifying the entire effort.


Has anyone yet tested to see if a helix wears off in between ticks or not? I've personally never seen it happen, but I've also never actively tested it.
#13 Sep 27 2009 at 6:47 AM Rating: Decent
Jack of All Trades
******
28,999 posts
Quote:
Has anyone yet tested to see if a helix wears off in between ticks or not? I've personally never seen it happen, but I've also never actively tested it.


I would think it could, because otherwise various big-name targets (possibly even AV, at least after the point it got its HP nerfed down and the 2-hour time limit placed on it) should have been killed with this method a long-ass time ago.

The whole "MV making helix wear off before it gets one tick in" should have been the only real thing keeping the method from ever working properly before.

But idk. Might wanna look at Kaeko's blog. Apparently there's been a whole lot of trials done.
#14 Sep 27 2009 at 7:11 AM Rating: Decent
One flew over the cuckoo's nest
Avatar
******
29,185 posts
If it couldn't wear off between tics, then all the av drops would be worth less than 10m, because everyone would have them. With 11 schs you'd need all of a 33 damage helix to 1shot av, and and it would work every single time, without having to worry about timing. There'd be hundreds of kills in just the few days before se fixed that <.<
____________________________
BANNED

Creator and Leader of the Anti-Rog faction
#15 Sep 27 2009 at 9:14 AM Rating: Decent
*
66 posts
What are the odds of a botting program to get the timing down perfect? I know there is a program that reads chat and can respond in however way you would like it to, and it seems odd how perfect their timing is (each and every SCH).

Also, you can see that when he says "." it is right on :42, but all of the SCH's used Modus right after it (mid-minute). Seems very odd to me
#16 Sep 27 2009 at 11:24 AM Rating: Good
**
824 posts
This is very, very old news, there were threads speculating about this back when SCH was brand new. It was written off then for the same reason it will be now; the logistics are a nightmare. You need 9 SCH with full MV merits, one SCH with perfect gear/merits to land the Helix, a ton of support for that SCH to up the initial damage, and perfect coordination between 9 players to hit a /JA within a <1 second window; and even then, the success rate is nowhere near 100% due to variable server/client lag, not to mention the fact that as soon as someone kills AV with it, it will most certainly be patched.

Bottom line? It's a neat trick that makes good shock videos for the playerbase at large that doesn't play SCH. That being said, I do hope somebody manages to gank AV with it before it's patched, if only to send a message to SE about how ridiculous the AV saga has become.
____________________________
rdmcandie wrote:
RDM can attain an almost static 50% reduction to recast time, SCH can over shoot this for a total of 60% reduction under Alacrity (provided you are wearing loafers and keeping dark weather on yourself)

rdmcandie wrote:
MACC is a joke, any job with access to mage gear can hit close the MACC cap on legion mobs, which is why my BRD/RDM can land slow/para/blind despite having only 150 skill (from /RDM.)
#17 Sep 27 2009 at 12:20 PM Rating: Default
**
629 posts
I've read all of kaeko's blog, and, unless there's something I'm missing somewhere, I've never seen any information stating one way or the other. Also, doesn't nearly every other debuff in the game work off of ticks instead of time? Including things such as sleep/2, paralyze, etc. I've seen somewhere where if you time it just right, you'll get an extra ~2 seconds out of a fully unresisted sleep or sleep 2 because it waits for the tick rather than the actual time.

I should think that this is also the case for helices, simply because modus veritas doesn't decrease the time between ticks of a helix. It decreases the total "time" of the helix. 11 SCHs all using MV at the same time would knock it down below the time needed to reach even the first tick after initial damage. This also makes me believe that rather than decreasing the time a helix lasts, MV reduces the number of remaining ticks by half. Seeing as how 11 SCHs still got a tick off afterwards, my theory is that it will never reduce it beyond 1 tick remaining.
#18 Sep 27 2009 at 3:34 PM Rating: Good
**
824 posts
Quote:
11 SCHs all using MV at the same time would knock it down below the time needed to reach even the first tick after initial damage. This also makes me believe that rather than decreasing the time a helix lasts, MV reduces the number of remaining ticks by half. Seeing as how 11 SCHs still got a tick off afterwards, my theory is that it will never reduce it beyond 1 tick remaining.


This is not how it works; you can go test it yourself easily. Helices have a random duration between 45~90s; it's not clear exactly how it works, since the random durations between the high/low values do not conform to the standard resist reductions of other status effects.

MV does exactly what the description says; it doubles the damage dealt by the Helix on each subsequent tick while reducing the time remaining by half. It does not affect the number or frequency of damage ticks; if your Helix ticks with 15s left til it wears and you use MV, the effect will wear off before it deals further damage. This is why stacking 9 MV appears to be the target number; it multiplies the initial damage by 512, enough to kill AV, while still allowing a long enough window to land all 9 /JAs. Any more and the window in which to land MV becomes too small, resulting in a wasted attempt of 0 damage. As such, this is why MV merits are so important; with these, each MV usage will reduce the time remaining by 25% instead of 50%. Without these, the duration will become too small and the Helix will wear off without dealing any damage.

According to others that have researched this strategy, Helices appear to tick on 10 second intervals from the instant the target appears on the server; If you land a Helix on a target 5 seconds after it pops, the first tick will occur after 5 seconds, then every 10 seconds after. Knowing when this tick occurs is extremely important, as 9 MV will reduce the duration to the point where you have to coordinate all 9 to land just before the next tick deals damage. This is why the coordination needed for a triggered mob like AV is so difficult; the exact time that the helix will tick is different every time it pops.

I suggest reading up on the BG thread concerning this if you're interested, it goes into further detail on some points that Kaeko didn't have the time to expound upon.
____________________________
rdmcandie wrote:
RDM can attain an almost static 50% reduction to recast time, SCH can over shoot this for a total of 60% reduction under Alacrity (provided you are wearing loafers and keeping dark weather on yourself)

rdmcandie wrote:
MACC is a joke, any job with access to mage gear can hit close the MACC cap on legion mobs, which is why my BRD/RDM can land slow/para/blind despite having only 150 skill (from /RDM.)
#19Banggugyangu, Posted: Sep 27 2009 at 4:28 PM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) As I said, in the video, they had 11 SCH's use MV. 90 divided by 11 is less than 10. This is why I believe that, rather than halving the remaining time, it halves the remaining number of ticks.
#20 Sep 27 2009 at 5:08 PM Rating: Excellent
**
824 posts
Quote:
As I said, in the video, they had 11 SCH's use MV. 90 divided by 11 is less than 10.


It's not a straight division problem, it's exponential. You're thinking 90/11 when it's actually 90/2/2/2/2/2/2/2/2/2/2/2, which leaves you with a .04 second window. If all of the SCH have full MV merits, it instead becomes 90*0.75*0.75~ giving you a 2.8s window, which is why those merits are an integral part of the strategy; it's simply impossible to land all 9 MV within 4 miliseconds of each other.

Quote:
This is why I believe that, rather than halving the remaining time, it halves the remaining number of ticks.


It doesn't matter what you believe, any idiot can go disprove this with minimal effort.
____________________________
rdmcandie wrote:
RDM can attain an almost static 50% reduction to recast time, SCH can over shoot this for a total of 60% reduction under Alacrity (provided you are wearing loafers and keeping dark weather on yourself)

rdmcandie wrote:
MACC is a joke, any job with access to mage gear can hit close the MACC cap on legion mobs, which is why my BRD/RDM can land slow/para/blind despite having only 150 skill (from /RDM.)
#21Banggugyangu, Posted: Sep 27 2009 at 8:44 PM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) So rather than getting pissy, point me to where someone has actually proved this. I asked if anyone has actually tested it. If someone has, inform me. If no one has, then stop insinuating that it's this way.
#22 Sep 27 2009 at 10:55 PM Rating: Excellent
**
824 posts
Let me get this straight; you want me to define basic game mechanics for you? The kind that you can easily find by doing a paltry amount of research?

Quote:
This is a prime example of someone who should have read the stickies and wiki before posting.


Quote:
I stated that, because 9 times outta 10, those who fail to read the wiki will also fail to read the stickies. Usually, the questions that receive a "read the stickies and wiki" response from most people are more quickly answered in the stickies.

Tangent: why are people so afraid to slightly offend someone? Sure, my original post in this thread may have upset the OP, but he would have gotten over it. If he learned anything from the thread whatsoever, he'll probably read before he asks next time. Is anyone gonna emo-cut themselves because of anything said in here? Maybe. But if they do, they have more problems than needing to know whether or not to full-time idle their sublimation gear.


Quote:
The problem is that in the past decade, we've developed 2 general standpoints in society.

1: A "gimme-gimme" stand point where everyone wants everything handed to them. This ranges from everything from money *our absolutely rediculous welfare and civil judicial systems* to education *very minor, but the ask-first and do nothing to learn on your own mindset*.

2: What my tangent addresses: A "Baby-sitting" standpoint where people do everything in their power to cater to every need of the person who may slightly appear to be the underdog. This is prevalent in all of American society. I absolutely loathe this behavior, because those who take this standpoint will uphold it whether the person they're baby-sitting is right or wrong. They feel as though right and wrong don't exist/matter, so long as no one is being "bullied".

The frustrating part about all of this, is the subject is really too taboo to bring any form of stand against it. If someone offends the latter, they lash out, along with everyone else they can find that shares the same mindset.


Quote:
Thank you for proving my point. Does baby-sitting pay well?


Quote:
1: I didn't state that this was the problem with the OP, rather that this trend, which has been prevalently growing lately, is the source of my frustration with questions that would be quickly answered with a small amount of effort put forth.

2: You would make the claim that someone studying another's research in a science is not working to learn on his own? Just because you're reading what someone else has already found out doesn't mean your asking for it to be handed to you. The information is on the wiki *I don't refer to the allakhazam wiki at any point when I use the word "wiki"*. There's no reason to re-research proven information.


http://ffxi.allakhazam.com/db/jobs.html?fjob=20&mid=1253083143240797820&num=20&page=1

It's so easy, I almost feel bad. Almost.
____________________________
rdmcandie wrote:
RDM can attain an almost static 50% reduction to recast time, SCH can over shoot this for a total of 60% reduction under Alacrity (provided you are wearing loafers and keeping dark weather on yourself)

rdmcandie wrote:
MACC is a joke, any job with access to mage gear can hit close the MACC cap on legion mobs, which is why my BRD/RDM can land slow/para/blind despite having only 150 skill (from /RDM.)
#23Banggugyangu, Posted: Sep 28 2009 at 6:45 AM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) You're trying too hard to be a jackass. I've read just about everything, except a few threads on BG. I've done the "research". Whether or not helices wear off while in between ticks is not a "basic game mechanic". Regardless of what you might think, this information is not basic information that is readily available at a well-known source that is often checked before asking a question.
#24 Sep 28 2009 at 7:48 AM Rating: Good
**
824 posts
Quote:
just to note, your post was the first post of condescending nature in this thread.


Nah, I'm pretty sure Rog beat me to it awhile ago.

Anyway, the basic functions of Helix spells are definitely basic game mechanics, just like Bio ticks. This isn't the kind of thing that requires all sorts of testing and proofs and such; it really is quite easy to see for yourself with about 5 minutes worth of effort. Asking someone to show you proof is like asking someone to prove to you that Cure spells restore HP.

Besides, you're postulating your 'beliefs' that one can easily disprove, even with little to no knowledge of the job. If MV reduced the number of ticks instead of the duration, and did not wear off without dealing at least one final tick, this strategy would be idiotproof and could be used to kill anything in the game with minimal effort. Do you really think that's the case?

This is rather amusing for me though, I admit. I simply assume that someone who would make a statement like this:

Quote:
Perhaps the SCHs you've experienced were sub-par, but I'm not by any means. I like to think of myself as a true representation of the job. Come to ragnarok sometime and experience a real SCH.


http://ffxi.allakhazam.com/db/jobs.html?fjob=20&mid=124894499764074578&page=2

..would understand the rather simple mechanics behind one of the job's signature spells. My mistake, I guess.
____________________________
rdmcandie wrote:
RDM can attain an almost static 50% reduction to recast time, SCH can over shoot this for a total of 60% reduction under Alacrity (provided you are wearing loafers and keeping dark weather on yourself)

rdmcandie wrote:
MACC is a joke, any job with access to mage gear can hit close the MACC cap on legion mobs, which is why my BRD/RDM can land slow/para/blind despite having only 150 skill (from /RDM.)
#25Banggugyangu, Posted: Sep 28 2009 at 8:22 AM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) i suppose that you're just choosing to ignore that nearly everything else in the game is based on ticks? Or do you have some fanciful explanation as to why you can get an extra 2 seconds on any debuff or an extra 12-20 TP out of meditate?
#26 Sep 28 2009 at 9:48 AM Rating: Decent
***
1,748 posts
"I don't think they'll nerf it. As mentioned, it takes a lot of organisation to actually pull it off and you can't spam it due to the recast timer on Modus Veritas. You need to coordinate your attacks well also, or the trick is wasted"

they nerfed the magic mortar 7k skillchains fast. YOu and puppet had to get tp, you had to get your puppet down to 1% hp, then you had to engage teh mob hoping it didnt do any type of aoe so puppet didnt die, then you could get it off, pupppet would die, resulting in possible 20 mins time to do it again.

so ya, if they nerf that, they will nerf this.
____________________________
BANNED
#27 Sep 28 2009 at 10:36 AM Rating: Excellent
Guru
**
365 posts
As many others have said this trick/exploit isn't new, its been known about the only thing is the group in the link got the timing exactly right within miliseconds.

xbobbobx wrote:
they nerfed the magic mortar 7k skillchains fast. YOu and puppet had to get tp, you had to get your puppet down to 1% hp, then you had to engage teh mob hoping it didnt do any type of aoe so puppet didnt die, then you could get it off, pupppet would die, resulting in possible 20 mins time to do it again.

so ya, if they nerf that, they will nerf this.

Difference of 10-11 actual players vs. 1 player with a puppet.

I'm sure it will get nerfed once its used to kill things of value, a UFO in Sea which there are videos of a BLM being able to solo that isn't all that impressive or nerf worthy. I'll wait for them to kill Kirin this way, it can be done with the right gear and support.

Edited, Sep 28th 2009 11:39am by Zagen
____________________________
Bismarck: Zagen
#28 Sep 28 2009 at 2:34 PM Rating: Excellent
**
824 posts
If you had taken the time to think this over a little before posting, given the information available in the resources you claim to have read, you would already realize why your theory is wrong. Since you didn't, and I'm sure you won't shut up until someone shows you exactly why it's wrong, here you go.

Let's start with some of the facts we'll be working from:

-Helices can wear off in between damage ticks; this is acknowledged several times throughout all the resources you claim to have read, as it is the main obstacle to pulling it off successfully; if you don't want to take their word for it, you can go test it yourself quite easily.

-Maximum Helix duration is 90 seconds / 9 damage ticks.

And here's the two possibilities we'll be testing:

-Modus Veritas reduces the remaining duration of a Helix by 50%, 25% with full merits.

-Modus Veritas reduces the remaining number of damage ticks by 50%, 25% with full merits.

First of all, since Helices can wear off between damage ticks, we can be certain that the formula does not round up when calculating time/ticks remaining. It quite possibly rounds down, as in most FFXI formulas, but as we cannot prove this we'll try it both ways.

So, on to the math. We'll use maximum duration Helices and 11 Modus Veritas uses as our control, since you yourself used that number.

90s Helix, Modus Veritas x11, no merits, not floored between steps:
90/2/2/2/2/2/2/2/2/2/2/2 = .04s Helix duration

90s Helix, Modus Veritas x11, no merits, floored between steps:
90/2/2/2/2/2/2/2/2/2/2/2 = 0s Helix duration

90s Helix, Modus Veritas x11, full merits, not floored between steps:
90*0.75*0.75*0.75*0.75*0.75*0.75*0.75*0.75*0.75*0.75*0.75 = 3.8s Helix duration

90s Helix, Modus Veritas x11, full merits, floored between steps:
90*0.75*0.75*0.75*0.75*0.75*0.75*0.75*0.75*0.75*0.75*0.75 = 3s Helix duration

Now, we'll do it your way by number of ticks:

9 tick Helix, Modus Veritas x11, no merits, not floored between steps:
9/2/2/2/2/2/2/2/2/2/2/2 = .004 tick Helix

9 tick Helix, Modus Veritas x11, no merits, floored between steps:
9/2/2/2/2/2/2/2/2/2/2/2 = 0 tick Helix

9 tick Helix, Modus Veritas x11, full merits, not floored between steps:
9*0.75*0.75*0.75*0.75*0.75*0.75*0.75*0.75*0.75*0.75*0.75 = .31 tick Helix

9 tick Helix, Modus Veritas x11, full merits, floored between steps:
9*0.75*0.75*0.75*0.75*0.75*0.75*0.75*0.75*0.75*0.75*0.75 = 0 tick Helix

As you can clearly see, if Modus Veritas halved the number of ticks remaining, the video you saw would simply not be possible, so we are forced to conclude that Modus Veritas reduces the duration of the Helix, not the number of damage ticks.

Quote:
I'm quite positive now that you don't know for certain but are simply throwing your blind assumption out as fact.


I wasn't pissy before, I was even quite civil with you for the first few posts; but if you're too lazy/stupid to work out this basic math on your own before asserting that I don't know what I'm talking about, you deserve all the flak you get.
____________________________
rdmcandie wrote:
RDM can attain an almost static 50% reduction to recast time, SCH can over shoot this for a total of 60% reduction under Alacrity (provided you are wearing loafers and keeping dark weather on yourself)

rdmcandie wrote:
MACC is a joke, any job with access to mage gear can hit close the MACC cap on legion mobs, which is why my BRD/RDM can land slow/para/blind despite having only 150 skill (from /RDM.)
#29 Sep 28 2009 at 3:39 PM Rating: Good
Scholar
*
181 posts
Wouldn't cutting the time the duration in half also cut the amount of ticks it does?
____________________________

200ish Merits
Amongst others
#30 Sep 28 2009 at 3:44 PM Rating: Excellent
Scholar
43 posts
Not to burst your bubble but...
I told you so...
____________________________
Mithral <Hades>
(75WHM/37BLM)(75SCH/37RDM)(75BLU/37NIN)(65SMN/32WHM)
I am the spiritual and magical core, the lifeblood of every group. I am a white mage.
#31 Sep 28 2009 at 4:03 PM Rating: Excellent
Guru
**
365 posts
Retice wrote:
Wouldn't cutting the time the duration in half also cut the amount of ticks it does?

Yes but you'd only need 1 tick to do the amount of damage to kill something.

Here's an example using Kirin's rumored 140 INT, and using likely the highest possible INT a player could get with proper support and a good amount of MAB from support/gear.

([206 - 140] + 25) * 1.15 * 1.1 * 1.66 = f191
191*(2^9) = 97792

So assuming there isn't any resistance on the initial damage of 191 the very next tick would do 97,792 damage
____________________________
Bismarck: Zagen
#32Banggugyangu, Posted: Sep 28 2009 at 4:44 PM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) Use of insults, whether direct or insinuated, is pretty much the opposite of civil.
#33 Sep 28 2009 at 7:06 PM Rating: Decent
Jack of All Trades
******
28,999 posts
Quote:
Wouldn't cutting the time the duration in half also cut the amount of ticks it does?


If we're talking "portions" of ticks, yes.

But that's not how it works in reality. You either get a tick, or you don't. Partials don't count.
#34 Sep 30 2009 at 2:56 AM Rating: Excellent
**
480 posts
Banggugyangu wrote:
As I said before... the way it appears to me is that a floor exists where 1/2 tick would be floored at 1. The easter event eggs that add 1% MP is an example of such a floor existing where 1 is the lowest value achieved. *When you only have 10 MP, 1 MP is 10%. Not 1%*


As stated several times before, your assumption is reasonable... But once tried, incorrect. If there was always a final remaining tick due to rounding up, then super-stacking MV would be pitifully easy,and AV (along with many other endgame mobs) would have died several times several months ago to it. And MV would have been nerfed to prevent that.

The fact that, despite the idea being simple, NO ONE has been able to put it to good use against a worthwile enemy says a lot.
____________________________
Frejan - Ragnarok
SCH 99 PUP 99 WAR 99 RDM 49 NIN 49 SAM 49
Windurst Rank 10, ZM+CoP: The Last Verse, ToAU: Eternal Mercenary, WotG Champion of the Dawn.
#35 Sep 30 2009 at 6:03 AM Rating: Excellent
*
183 posts
Banggugyangu wrote:
As I said before... the way it appears to me is that a floor exists where 1/2 tick would be floored at 1. The easter event eggs that add 1% MP is an example of such a floor existing where 1 is the lowest value achieved. *When you only have 10 MP, 1 MP is 10%. Not 1%*


The problem is, you assume that because some things in the game are calculated a certain way, that it is therefore a rule that all similar things be calculated the same way - and that just isn't the case. And besides, comparing a SCH job ability to the % calculation on an easter event item is like comparing apples to oranges.
#36Banggugyangu, Posted: Sep 30 2009 at 6:51 AM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) Why is everyone acting like what they believe is fact in this matter? I'm still yet saying that I've seen no test results where anyone has actually tried to prove this one way or another. I gave examples of certain floors that are already in the game. Does this mean that such a floor exists for this situation? Absolutely not. Does it mean that such a floor MIGHT exist for this situation? Absolutely.
#37 Sep 30 2009 at 7:20 AM Rating: Excellent
**
824 posts
The exasperating part about this is that you insist on seeing 'hard proof' on something you could easily prove for yourself by casting one helix spell.

Then there's the math that I showed you which also proves it; not to mention the fact that, again, if it worked the way you said, any idiot could gather some SCHs and gank AV with a 100% success rate. Do you really think the people who've been testing this for months, and have screenshots/videos/math to back it up, are wrong?

Quote:
It should be blatantly obvious to everyone now that SE has no idea about 90% of the way FFXI works. Why should this be any different?


Glass houses, etc.
____________________________
rdmcandie wrote:
RDM can attain an almost static 50% reduction to recast time, SCH can over shoot this for a total of 60% reduction under Alacrity (provided you are wearing loafers and keeping dark weather on yourself)

rdmcandie wrote:
MACC is a joke, any job with access to mage gear can hit close the MACC cap on legion mobs, which is why my BRD/RDM can land slow/para/blind despite having only 150 skill (from /RDM.)
#38 Sep 30 2009 at 9:16 AM Rating: Excellent
11 posts
if helix has to do 1 tick of damage before it ends its duration, then killing AV would be really easy.
they would just land helix, everyone do MV, then wait for the next tick.
But thats not the case, theres been multiple attempts at killing AV with this method, and they all failed due to timing issue.

Not only that, but the tick also depends on the mob.
ive landed a helix on a bee outside rolanbery, do intial damage, then a sec later it does the tick damage, then 10 sec or so for next one.


#39Banggugyangu, Posted: Sep 30 2009 at 9:17 AM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) i'm asking for proof simply because the small amount of time i spend online anymore is spent crafting. If it's been tested so much already with screenshots, why can you not provide a link to said results? I understand your math just fine and i agree with it. That doesn't mean they wouldn't instate a floor. I gave an example of such a floor that's already there.
#40 Sep 30 2009 at 12:17 PM Rating: Excellent
11 posts
It's all in BG.

The fact that people cant get pass the 1st tick after doing mass MV, you should come to the conclusion that the duration ends before the tick and will not wait for the tick to happen.
#41 Oct 01 2009 at 3:54 AM Rating: Decent
Scholar
*
152 posts
It's kinda like...

If a spell lasts for 30 seconds and inflicts damage every 10 seconds, then it does three ticks worth of damage.

You're halving the duration of the spell. Duration is a measure of time.

So, 30s -> 15s.

Okay, so the spell does damage every 10 seconds, and it's new duration is 15 seconds.

No matter how hard you "believe" it to be different, your spell is going to tick once, and wear off halfway before the next one.

Do you understand the concept? I hope so.

Now, the way this "trick" seems to work...

Cast a Helix spell. It does initial damage. When you have 10-11 people use Modas Veritas, your duration shoots down to ~1-2s. You need to make sure it's right before the next tick.

What is so hard to understand?
____________________________

#42 Oct 01 2009 at 4:05 AM Rating: Good
**
692 posts
Zagen wrote:
I'll wait for them to kill Kirin this way, it can be done with the right gear and support.


Please note that I clearly have never fought Kirin on SCH, but my understanding is that his INT is waaaaaay too high to land a good enough helix for this trick to work, regardless of what support you have.
____________________________
Kaishen
Galka of Bahamut
EndlessFriends Linkshell
[DNC90] [WAR90] [MNK90]
#43Banggugyangu, Posted: Oct 01 2009 at 6:48 AM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) I have personally landed a 93 damage anemohelix on kirin. I'm also only 13 INT *from gear* away from the maximum INT that SCH can get. Didn't have any etudes for this, but had warlocks and wizard's rolls *for the small effect MAB has on such a low base number*.
Reply To Thread

Colors Smileys Quote OriginalQuote Checked Help

 

Recent Visitors: 12 All times are in CDT
Anonymous Guests (12)