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An endgame use for sch?!Follow

#1 Sep 26 2009 at 4:19 PM Rating: Decent
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#2 Sep 26 2009 at 5:28 PM Rating: Good
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Edit:

How is it that this strategy is somehow working now, it was proposed at least a year ago and thrown out due to helix's weak base damage on HNMs. Yet now they're landing it for upwards of 100 dmg on even the strongest HNM.

Hm, I wonder how long before SE decides to make AV immune to helixes >.>

Edited, Sep 26th 2009 9:39pm by Teiei
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#3 Sep 26 2009 at 5:45 PM Rating: Decent
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WTF I remember that topic thats awesome though. ib4 emergency update. and ohh god what did they do to the musics in that video ;_;
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#4 Sep 26 2009 at 6:20 PM Rating: Decent
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Ultima spends 10 whole seconds shouting "I'MA FIRIN MAH LAZER" like a 2004 valkurm melee waiting for SC
#6 Sep 26 2009 at 9:48 PM Rating: Decent
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This was theorized long, long time ago. The deterring factor was always getting anything above 4 SCH's with MV merits to try it. The best test I saw when SCH merits came out where with only 3.

Good it was finally proved to work tho :3
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#7 Sep 26 2009 at 9:51 PM Rating: Decent
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Until its nerfed into the ground. Smiley: laugh
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#8 Sep 26 2009 at 11:10 PM Rating: Decent
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I don't think they'll nerf it. As mentioned, it takes a lot of organisation to actually pull it off and you can't spam it due to the recast timer on Modus Veritas. You need to coordinate your attacks well also, or the trick is wasted.

That said, I called this one a long time ago and it's great to see it's actually being taken serious now. I'm almost at full helix merits (4/5 dmg/acc, 5/5 MV duration) so maybe I'll try this out sometime :)
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#9 Sep 27 2009 at 3:47 AM Rating: Decent
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WTF lol. ya i think SE gonna freak out and nerf the **** out of that;;. they did all that with 10-12 sch. wonder what would happen with the full 18 sch? O.o
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#10 Sep 27 2009 at 5:01 AM Rating: Good
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Why are MV merits required in order for this to work? All the merits do is increase duration and if all the SCHs used MV at the same time duration would surely be irrelevent since the mob would likely be dead in one tic. What am I missing?
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#11 Sep 27 2009 at 5:35 AM Rating: Decent
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I don't think they'll nerf it. As mentioned, it takes a lot of organisation to actually pull it off and you can't spam it due to the recast timer on Modus Veritas. You need to coordinate your attacks well also, or the trick is wasted.


Oh, they'll nerf it once someone actually kills AV with it.

Taking coordination to perform has never stopped them from nerfing past AV-killing methods, and they're going to keep doing it until we stumble across their "proper" way of killing it. Unfortunately for us, they haven't really given us too much help as far as deciphering this proper method.

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Why are MV merits required in order for this to work? All the merits do is increase duration and if all the SCHs used MV at the same time duration would surely be irrelevent since the mob would likely be dead in one tic. What am I missing?


Because it's easily possible to use too much MV to the point where it won't even last for one tic, nullifying the entire effort. You need to have fully merited MVs in order to get in as many MVs as possible while still allowing that one tick to get in (supposedly, the magic number is 9 merited MVs, any more than that seems to make the helix fail immediately?), and you also need very precise timing on those MVs in order to get that one tick in (using all the MVs will immediately drop the remaining helix duration to roughly 1-2 seconds, and the tick must occur during this time). Because of this, you need to test a helix on something else prior to fighting whatever your Mega Boss is, just to be certain on when the helix ticks are occuring.

Edited, Sep 27th 2009 9:46am by Fynlar
#12 Sep 27 2009 at 6:34 AM Rating: Decent
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Fynlar wrote:
Because it's easily possible to use too much MV to the point where it won't even last for one tic, nullifying the entire effort.


Has anyone yet tested to see if a helix wears off in between ticks or not? I've personally never seen it happen, but I've also never actively tested it.
#13 Sep 27 2009 at 6:47 AM Rating: Decent
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Has anyone yet tested to see if a helix wears off in between ticks or not? I've personally never seen it happen, but I've also never actively tested it.


I would think it could, because otherwise various big-name targets (possibly even AV, at least after the point it got its HP nerfed down and the 2-hour time limit placed on it) should have been killed with this method a long-*** time ago.

The whole "MV making helix wear off before it gets one tick in" should have been the only real thing keeping the method from ever working properly before.

But idk. Might wanna look at Kaeko's blog. Apparently there's been a whole lot of trials done.
#14 Sep 27 2009 at 7:11 AM Rating: Decent
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If it couldn't wear off between tics, then all the av drops would be worth less than 10m, because everyone would have them. With 11 schs you'd need all of a 33 damage helix to 1shot av, and and it would work every single time, without having to worry about timing. There'd be hundreds of kills in just the few days before se fixed that <.<
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#15 Sep 27 2009 at 9:14 AM Rating: Decent
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What are the odds of a botting program to get the timing down perfect? I know there is a program that reads chat and can respond in however way you would like it to, and it seems odd how perfect their timing is (each and every SCH).

Also, you can see that when he says "." it is right on :42, but all of the SCH's used Modus right after it (mid-minute). Seems very odd to me
#16 Sep 27 2009 at 11:24 AM Rating: Good
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This is very, very old news, there were threads speculating about this back when SCH was brand new. It was written off then for the same reason it will be now; the logistics are a nightmare. You need 9 SCH with full MV merits, one SCH with perfect gear/merits to land the Helix, a ton of support for that SCH to up the initial damage, and perfect coordination between 9 players to hit a /JA within a <1 second window; and even then, the success rate is nowhere near 100% due to variable server/client lag, not to mention the fact that as soon as someone kills AV with it, it will most certainly be patched.

Bottom line? It's a neat trick that makes good shock videos for the playerbase at large that doesn't play SCH. That being said, I do hope somebody manages to gank AV with it before it's patched, if only to send a message to SE about how ridiculous the AV saga has become.
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RDM can attain an almost static 50% reduction to recast time, SCH can over shoot this for a total of 60% reduction under Alacrity (provided you are wearing loafers and keeping dark weather on yourself)

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MACC is a joke, any job with access to mage gear can hit close the MACC cap on legion mobs, which is why my BRD/RDM can land slow/para/blind despite having only 150 skill (from /RDM.)
#17 Sep 27 2009 at 12:20 PM Rating: Default
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I've read all of kaeko's blog, and, unless there's something I'm missing somewhere, I've never seen any information stating one way or the other. Also, doesn't nearly every other debuff in the game work off of ticks instead of time? Including things such as sleep/2, paralyze, etc. I've seen somewhere where if you time it just right, you'll get an extra ~2 seconds out of a fully unresisted sleep or sleep 2 because it waits for the tick rather than the actual time.

I should think that this is also the case for helices, simply because modus veritas doesn't decrease the time between ticks of a helix. It decreases the total "time" of the helix. 11 SCHs all using MV at the same time would knock it down below the time needed to reach even the first tick after initial damage. This also makes me believe that rather than decreasing the time a helix lasts, MV reduces the number of remaining ticks by half. Seeing as how 11 SCHs still got a tick off afterwards, my theory is that it will never reduce it beyond 1 tick remaining.
#18 Sep 27 2009 at 3:34 PM Rating: Good
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11 SCHs all using MV at the same time would knock it down below the time needed to reach even the first tick after initial damage. This also makes me believe that rather than decreasing the time a helix lasts, MV reduces the number of remaining ticks by half. Seeing as how 11 SCHs still got a tick off afterwards, my theory is that it will never reduce it beyond 1 tick remaining.


This is not how it works; you can go test it yourself easily. Helices have a random duration between 45~90s; it's not clear exactly how it works, since the random durations between the high/low values do not conform to the standard resist reductions of other status effects.

MV does exactly what the description says; it doubles the damage dealt by the Helix on each subsequent tick while reducing the time remaining by half. It does not affect the number or frequency of damage ticks; if your Helix ticks with 15s left til it wears and you use MV, the effect will wear off before it deals further damage. This is why stacking 9 MV appears to be the target number; it multiplies the initial damage by 512, enough to kill AV, while still allowing a long enough window to land all 9 /JAs. Any more and the window in which to land MV becomes too small, resulting in a wasted attempt of 0 damage. As such, this is why MV merits are so important; with these, each MV usage will reduce the time remaining by 25% instead of 50%. Without these, the duration will become too small and the Helix will wear off without dealing any damage.

According to others that have researched this strategy, Helices appear to tick on 10 second intervals from the instant the target appears on the server; If you land a Helix on a target 5 seconds after it pops, the first tick will occur after 5 seconds, then every 10 seconds after. Knowing when this tick occurs is extremely important, as 9 MV will reduce the duration to the point where you have to coordinate all 9 to land just before the next tick deals damage. This is why the coordination needed for a triggered mob like AV is so difficult; the exact time that the helix will tick is different every time it pops.

I suggest reading up on the BG thread concerning this if you're interested, it goes into further detail on some points that Kaeko didn't have the time to expound upon.
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rdmcandie wrote:
RDM can attain an almost static 50% reduction to recast time, SCH can over shoot this for a total of 60% reduction under Alacrity (provided you are wearing loafers and keeping dark weather on yourself)

rdmcandie wrote:
MACC is a joke, any job with access to mage gear can hit close the MACC cap on legion mobs, which is why my BRD/RDM can land slow/para/blind despite having only 150 skill (from /RDM.)
#19Banggugyangu, Posted: Sep 27 2009 at 4:28 PM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) As I said, in the video, they had 11 SCH's use MV. 90 divided by 11 is less than 10. This is why I believe that, rather than halving the remaining time, it halves the remaining number of ticks.
#20 Sep 27 2009 at 5:08 PM Rating: Excellent
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As I said, in the video, they had 11 SCH's use MV. 90 divided by 11 is less than 10.


It's not a straight division problem, it's exponential. You're thinking 90/11 when it's actually 90/2/2/2/2/2/2/2/2/2/2/2, which leaves you with a .04 second window. If all of the SCH have full MV merits, it instead becomes 90*0.75*0.75~ giving you a 2.8s window, which is why those merits are an integral part of the strategy; it's simply impossible to land all 9 MV within 4 miliseconds of each other.

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This is why I believe that, rather than halving the remaining time, it halves the remaining number of ticks.


It doesn't matter what you believe, any idiot can go disprove this with minimal effort.
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rdmcandie wrote:
RDM can attain an almost static 50% reduction to recast time, SCH can over shoot this for a total of 60% reduction under Alacrity (provided you are wearing loafers and keeping dark weather on yourself)

rdmcandie wrote:
MACC is a joke, any job with access to mage gear can hit close the MACC cap on legion mobs, which is why my BRD/RDM can land slow/para/blind despite having only 150 skill (from /RDM.)
#21Banggugyangu, Posted: Sep 27 2009 at 8:44 PM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) So rather than getting ****** point me to where someone has actually proved this. I asked if anyone has actually tested it. If someone has, inform me. If no one has, then stop insinuating that it's this way.
#22 Sep 27 2009 at 10:55 PM Rating: Excellent
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Let me get this straight; you want me to define basic game mechanics for you? The kind that you can easily find by doing a paltry amount of research?

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This is a prime example of someone who should have read the stickies and wiki before posting.


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I stated that, because 9 times outta 10, those who fail to read the wiki will also fail to read the stickies. Usually, the questions that receive a "read the stickies and wiki" response from most people are more quickly answered in the stickies.

Tangent: why are people so afraid to slightly offend someone? Sure, my original post in this thread may have upset the OP, but he would have gotten over it. If he learned anything from the thread whatsoever, he'll probably read before he asks next time. Is anyone gonna emo-cut themselves because of anything said in here? Maybe. But if they do, they have more problems than needing to know whether or not to full-time idle their sublimation gear.


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The problem is that in the past decade, we've developed 2 general standpoints in society.

1: A "gimme-gimme" stand point where everyone wants everything handed to them. This ranges from everything from money *our absolutely rediculous welfare and civil judicial systems* to education *very minor, but the ask-first and do nothing to learn on your own mindset*.

2: What my tangent addresses: A "Baby-sitting" standpoint where people do everything in their power to cater to every need of the person who may slightly appear to be the underdog. This is prevalent in all of American society. I absolutely loathe this behavior, because those who take this standpoint will uphold it whether the person they're baby-sitting is right or wrong. They feel as though right and wrong don't exist/matter, so long as no one is being "bullied".

The frustrating part about all of this, is the subject is really too taboo to bring any form of stand against it. If someone offends the latter, they lash out, along with everyone else they can find that shares the same mindset.


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Thank you for proving my point. Does baby-sitting pay well?


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1: I didn't state that this was the problem with the OP, rather that this trend, which has been prevalently growing lately, is the source of my frustration with questions that would be quickly answered with a small amount of effort put forth.

2: You would make the claim that someone studying another's research in a science is not working to learn on his own? Just because you're reading what someone else has already found out doesn't mean your asking for it to be handed to you. The information is on the wiki *I don't refer to the allakhazam wiki at any point when I use the word "wiki"*. There's no reason to re-research proven information.


http://ffxi.allakhazam.com/db/jobs.html?fjob=20&mid=1253083143240797820&num=20&page=1

It's so easy, I almost feel bad. Almost.
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rdmcandie wrote:
RDM can attain an almost static 50% reduction to recast time, SCH can over shoot this for a total of 60% reduction under Alacrity (provided you are wearing loafers and keeping dark weather on yourself)

rdmcandie wrote:
MACC is a joke, any job with access to mage gear can hit close the MACC cap on legion mobs, which is why my BRD/RDM can land slow/para/blind despite having only 150 skill (from /RDM.)
#23Banggugyangu, Posted: Sep 28 2009 at 6:45 AM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) You're trying too hard to be a jackass. I've read just about everything, except a few threads on BG. I've done the "research". Whether or not helices wear off while in between ticks is not a "basic game mechanic". Regardless of what you might think, this information is not basic information that is readily available at a well-known source that is often checked before asking a question.
#24 Sep 28 2009 at 7:48 AM Rating: Good
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just to note, your post was the first post of condescending nature in this thread.


Nah, I'm pretty sure Rog beat me to it awhile ago.

Anyway, the basic functions of Helix spells are definitely basic game mechanics, just like Bio ticks. This isn't the kind of thing that requires all sorts of testing and proofs and such; it really is quite easy to see for yourself with about 5 minutes worth of effort. Asking someone to show you proof is like asking someone to prove to you that Cure spells restore HP.

Besides, you're postulating your 'beliefs' that one can easily disprove, even with little to no knowledge of the job. If MV reduced the number of ticks instead of the duration, and did not wear off without dealing at least one final tick, this strategy would be idiotproof and could be used to kill anything in the game with minimal effort. Do you really think that's the case?

This is rather amusing for me though, I admit. I simply assume that someone who would make a statement like this:

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Perhaps the SCHs you've experienced were sub-par, but I'm not by any means. I like to think of myself as a true representation of the job. Come to ragnarok sometime and experience a real SCH.


http://ffxi.allakhazam.com/db/jobs.html?fjob=20&mid=124894499764074578&page=2

..would understand the rather simple mechanics behind one of the job's signature spells. My mistake, I guess.
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rdmcandie wrote:
RDM can attain an almost static 50% reduction to recast time, SCH can over shoot this for a total of 60% reduction under Alacrity (provided you are wearing loafers and keeping dark weather on yourself)

rdmcandie wrote:
MACC is a joke, any job with access to mage gear can hit close the MACC cap on legion mobs, which is why my BRD/RDM can land slow/para/blind despite having only 150 skill (from /RDM.)
#25Banggugyangu, Posted: Sep 28 2009 at 8:22 AM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) i suppose that you're just choosing to ignore that nearly everything else in the game is based on ticks? Or do you have some fanciful explanation as to why you can get an extra 2 seconds on any debuff or an extra 12-20 TP out of meditate?
#26 Sep 28 2009 at 9:48 AM Rating: Decent
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"I don't think they'll nerf it. As mentioned, it takes a lot of organisation to actually pull it off and you can't spam it due to the recast timer on Modus Veritas. You need to coordinate your attacks well also, or the trick is wasted"

they nerfed the magic mortar 7k skillchains fast. YOu and puppet had to get tp, you had to get your puppet down to 1% hp, then you had to engage teh mob hoping it didnt do any type of aoe so puppet didnt die, then you could get it off, pupppet would die, resulting in possible 20 mins time to do it again.

so ya, if they nerf that, they will nerf this.
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