Forum Settings
       
« Previous 1 2 3 4
Reply To Thread

SCH vs. BLMFollow

#1 Jul 30 2009 at 1:09 AM Rating: Good
*
66 posts
Hello^^

I am a BLM75 and SCH37 and I have a couple of questions to the SCH community if you dont mind enlightening me. I am curious as to how you compare to BLM on the offensive end of course. I'm currently looking at possibly leveling SCH as my next job and I just want to make sure I know what I'm getting into before taking it to 75.

First off, how do you compare in end game situations? Does your lower skill keep you from landing nukes consistently or no? How about your damage compared to BLM? I mainly do sky/sea/dynamis, but any examples would be very appreciated.

For those of you that have SCH AND BLM at 75, do you find one of them to be useless or are they just situational? If so, how?

Any other info that you think I might be interested in please post. I appreciate any replies. Thanks
#2 Jul 30 2009 at 3:12 AM Rating: Decent
*
109 posts
Blm inherently can do better dmg than Sch, and have an easier time gearing and doing it for that matter. This is on a singular nuke basis. So imo the Sch vs Blm idea is silly.
With that said Sch can come **** close to Blm dmg without using Ebullence, easily surpass them with using it(when comparing same spells), and over all dmg with using full mp pool can easily surpass Blm dmg potential(using gems appropriately).

With proper gear(which is irrelevant because Blm's need to gear properly as well), Sch's can easily match what Blm's aim for when fighting HNM's(320/110). So skill really isn't an issue.

Sch is a nice experience, its a much more indepth experience than just targeting and casting. The usage of Stratagems can vastly change the flow of what your doing. That... and.. The first time you Aspirga, drainga some mobs your prob gonna giggle a bit >.>(ive aspirga'd over 500mp) Graviga is a fun tool when dealing with sleepga's. Nice lil safety net for resleeps.

Like i said, the jobs really shouldnt be compared. Ya they share some qualities, but if ya want pure unbiased dmg on a mob, choose blm, if ya want a different more indepth job with some more versatility, than sch mite fit your needs. Either way.. I dont think you will regret leveling sch to 75.

EDIT**

If your fortunate to get some of the more Dark Arts oriented Sch's pop on this post... They will be a huge help in giving more personal experience in blm vs sch nuke for nuke. Though i have yet to reach the pinnacle.. The numbers Sch can potentially obtain can be quite impressive.

Edited, Jul 30th 2009 7:15am by ElVendi
____________________________
Bst75, Sch75, Brd75, War75, Rdm75, Sam 75
#3 Jul 30 2009 at 4:41 AM Rating: Decent
**
315 posts
ElVendi you're overusing the word "easily".

ElVendi wrote:
With that said Sch can come **** close to Blm dmg without using Ebullence, easily surpass them with using it(when comparing same spells)


I have BLM and SCH at 75 and there's no way that my SCH is getting near my BLM damage without ebullience. How do you account for the extra MaB traits, better gear, and merits ElVendi?

ElVendi wrote:
and over all dmg with using full mp pool can easily surpass Blm dmg potential(using gems appropriately).


There's that word again. Both jobs can get chain 5 on puddings with a little luck. Chain 4 is pretty much a given once you get a solid strategy down. Although I do agree, with a full mp pool Sch has more damage potential just blowing it all. But you're making it sound way too one sided.


ElVendi wrote:
With proper gear(which is irrelevant because Blm's need to gear properly as well), Sch's can easily match what Blm's aim for when fighting HNM's(320/110). So skill really isn't an issue.


320/120 is the absolute bare minimum, not what you "aim" for. A proper use of the word "easily" is that Blm can "easily" reach that, Sch...not so easy.

Basically OP, if you're willing to give up some offense, for a more well rounded mage, then I think you'll enjoy Sch. If you're the kind of Blm that wants to get the absolute maximum out of each and every nuke, Sch will leave you a little dissapointed.
____________________________
75NIN, 75BLM, 75SCH, 75SAM, 64BRD, 41RDM, 37DNC, 37WHM, 37WAR
#4 Jul 30 2009 at 8:29 AM Rating: Excellent
**
824 posts
Quote:
I have BLM and SCH at 75 and there's no way that my SCH is getting near my BLM damage without ebullience. How do you account for the extra MaB traits, better gear, and merits ElVendi?


This is irrelevant, as it is just one example. A perfectly geared BLM is going to outdamage a perfectly geared SCH using all their tricks, but only per nuke, which in most situations is irrelevant. The amount of damage you can cause to a mob is usually limited by 2 factors; MP remaining, and if in a non-solo situation, Enmity. SCH destroys BLM in efficiency in both respects.

Quote:
There's that word again. Both jobs can get chain 5 on puddings with a little luck. Chain 4 is pretty much a given once you get a solid strategy down.


Puddings never matter. I understand that's what everyone merits on (Why, I'll never know), but they're lolmobs. It's like comparing which melee can kill a Colibri faster. You want to see which job solos better, go kill some aerns or statues or something. I assure you, SCH is much more efficient when soloing real mobs.

Quote:
Although I do agree, with a full mp pool Sch has more damage potential just blowing it all. But you're making it sound way too one sided.


I suggest you read this (Scholar Guide Part V to be precise): http://kanican.livejournal.com/

BLM can not ever even come close to touching SCH's damage per MP ratios, even comparing a naked SCH to a fully geared BLM. It really is that one-sided.

Quote:
320/120 is the absolute bare minimum, not what you "aim" for. A proper use of the word "easily" is that Blm can "easily" reach that, Sch...not so easy.


This is almost true, but you forgot about Klimaform.

Quote:
If you're the kind of Blm that wants to get the absolute maximum out of each and every nuke, Sch will leave you a little dissapointed.


If you like seeing big numbers, go play BLM and stack some magic crit. Spike damage is fun and all, but consistent, accurate, low cost nukes always win, and BLM simply cannot match SCH in this regard.
____________________________
rdmcandie wrote:
RDM can attain an almost static 50% reduction to recast time, SCH can over shoot this for a total of 60% reduction under Alacrity (provided you are wearing loafers and keeping dark weather on yourself)

rdmcandie wrote:
MACC is a joke, any job with access to mage gear can hit close the MACC cap on legion mobs, which is why my BRD/RDM can land slow/para/blind despite having only 150 skill (from /RDM.)
#5 Jul 30 2009 at 8:37 AM Rating: Decent
***
2,976 posts
Using Ebullience, my tier IV spells can match and even beat the averagely equipped BLM. But, to put a fine point on it, im often packing over 150 INT for these nukes and all the MAB gear I can lay my hands on, as well as a HQ staff.

The real benefit that Scholar has over BLM, if you must nit-pick, is that we have a permanent 10% damage bonus on any spell we want to cast, as long as we have the corresponding elemental obi. Black Mages need to rely on the right weather/day but Scholars can simply cast the storm spell they require and nuke away. Whats more, Hailstorm offers a +7 INT bonus when fully merited making it one of the best choices.

That being said, no Scholar is ever going to match a BLM blow for blow. They have superior nukes (AM2's, AoE's etc) more MAB in job traits and equipment, and merits which can raise the roof on their best spells potency. A fully merited SCH is no match against a fully merited BLM.

Comparing BLM to SCH is unfair since BLM is a pure nuking job, one which is very proficient at it. SCH is a hybrid job and should be played as one to get the most out of it. I don't play SCH to nuke the heck out of everything (though I confess, I do enjoy it) I play it to be impressively balanced. Knowing when to drop Dark Arts and take up the light staff is what separates skilled Scholars from the newcomers.
____________________________
R.I.P. Crystan FFXI
75WHM 75SCH 75RDM 75SMN
#6 Jul 30 2009 at 9:10 AM Rating: Excellent
**
824 posts
Quote:
The real benefit that Scholar has over BLM, if you must nit-pick, is that we have a permanent 10% damage bonus on any spell we want to cast, as long as we have the corresponding elemental obi.


Not to downplay the signifigance of using Obis, but BLM has Sorcerer's Ring. Obis help an awful lot and I always use them to the fullest, but all things considered BLM just has more options for pure damage gear.

Quote:
That being said, no Scholar is ever going to match a BLM blow for blow. They have superior nukes (AM2's, AoE's etc) more MAB in job traits and equipment, and merits which can raise the roof on their best spells potency. A fully merited SCH is no match against a fully merited BLM.


For the record, excluding Drain and Helices because they're broken good, tierIV nukes are the best nukes in the game, as their DMG:MP ratios are the highest. AM2 and -ga spells are novelties with limited use.

Saying a fully merited SCH is no match against a fully merited BLM is extremely misleading, because in many situations it is simply not true. To be honest it's kinda like the old 2005 debate between spike damage and DoT from melees. Eventually everyone agreed that DoT is better, so I'm hoping that eventually people will apply that same logic to this argument.

Quote:
Comparing BLM to SCH is unfair since BLM is a pure nuking job, one which is very proficient at it.


It's actually unfair for BLM, because BLM was the premier job for magic damage for many years, and SCH is in many ways much more proficient at it. Also, considering that Dark Arts is only half the job, I'm really surprised that SE hasn't decided to buff BLM or nerf SCH yet. My money says they know what they did, but have no clue how to fix it, so they just ignore it, as per SE policy.
____________________________
rdmcandie wrote:
RDM can attain an almost static 50% reduction to recast time, SCH can over shoot this for a total of 60% reduction under Alacrity (provided you are wearing loafers and keeping dark weather on yourself)

rdmcandie wrote:
MACC is a joke, any job with access to mage gear can hit close the MACC cap on legion mobs, which is why my BRD/RDM can land slow/para/blind despite having only 150 skill (from /RDM.)
#7 Jul 30 2009 at 9:15 AM Rating: Good
*
66 posts
Thank you everyone for the replies. I've learned a lot from your comments

That being said..I'm going to try SCH out and see how it goes. It looks wicked fun and as you guys have pointed out, very useful as well.

Thanks again^^
#8 Jul 30 2009 at 9:30 AM Rating: Excellent
Sage
*
95 posts
http://kanican.livejournal.com/39706.html

Here's a blog of a very good Blm and Sch. He details the strengths and weaknesses very well.

Basically, Sch is a DoT nuker, while Blm is a Burst nuker. So if your fights are longer a Sch will win out over time, but in shorter fights the Blm wins.
____________________________
Bikpik @ Cerberus
BLM90 - DNC90 - BST90 - DRK90 - SCH90

I'd rather be a smart *** than a dumb ***
#9 Jul 30 2009 at 9:37 AM Rating: Good
**
824 posts
Quote:
So if your fights are longer a Sch will win out over time, but in shorter fights the Blm wins.


If the fight is short enough that a SCH can't get enough Parsimony nukes in to trump a BLM (which would have to be quite short), Alacrity spammed tierIVs will do the trick.

This is why SCH is so powerful; it has the versatility to adapt to pretty much any situation. BLM points and shoots.
____________________________
rdmcandie wrote:
RDM can attain an almost static 50% reduction to recast time, SCH can over shoot this for a total of 60% reduction under Alacrity (provided you are wearing loafers and keeping dark weather on yourself)

rdmcandie wrote:
MACC is a joke, any job with access to mage gear can hit close the MACC cap on legion mobs, which is why my BRD/RDM can land slow/para/blind despite having only 150 skill (from /RDM.)
#10 Jul 30 2009 at 11:54 AM Rating: Default
**
315 posts
LyltiaofLakshmi I understand all your points but you are coming off like Sch is the 2nd coming. Yes Sch is awesome, and yes Blm needs some buffs, but I disagree with you on a few points.

Fermion wrote:
I have BLM and SCH at 75 and there's no way that my SCH is getting near my BLM damage without ebullience. How do you account for the extra MaB traits, better gear, and merits ElVendi?


LyltiaofLakshmi wrote:
This is irrelevant, as it is just one example. A perfectly geared BLM is going to outdamage a perfectly geared SCH using all their tricks, but only per nuke, which in most situations is irrelevant. The amount of damage you can cause to a mob is usually limited by 2 factors; MP remaining, and if in a non-solo situation, Enmity. SCH destroys BLM in efficiency in both respects.


I was responding to ElVendi's claim that he can outnuke (single nuke) a Blm without ebullience. Do you honestly believe that's the case? I was offering the OP a baseline comparison, not a HQ Sch against a gimp Blm.

Fermion wrote:
There's that word again. Both jobs can get chain 5 on puddings with a little luck. Chain 4 is pretty much a given once you get a solid strategy down.


LyltiaofLakshmi wrote:
Puddings never matter. I understand that's what everyone merits on (Why, I'll never know), but they're lolmobs. It's like comparing which melee can kill a Colibri faster. You want to see which job solos better, go kill some aerns or statues or something. I assure you, SCH is much more efficient when soloing real mobs.


People level on puddings because their xp is great and you said it yourself, they're lolmobs. Why wouldn't you want to xp on an easy mob that gives good xp? And I never said Blm is a better soloer, you're trying to put words in my mouth. I was talking about puddings which is obviously an xp/limit situation.

Fermion wrote:
320/120 is the absolute bare minimum, not what you "aim" for. A proper use of the word "easily" is that Blm can "easily" reach that, Sch...not so easy.


LyltiaofLakshmi wrote:
This is almost true, but you forgot about Klimaform.


I didn't forget about klimaform. Unless you're soloing HNMs or you're just a bad player, if you're nuking you'll probably be in a Blm pt, and you should be AoEing Klimaform anyway. So it's a wash.

Idk if you were serious about the advice on Blms stacking magic crit, I seriously hope you were joking, because that's horrible advice.

Sch is a good nuker, it solos better and has better efficiency, but on big mobs, Blm has more Magic accuracy and Magic attack. That is unquestionable. It's really not that complicated. Don't take it the wrong way, but on anything that's difficult to nuke, Blm will outdamage Sch because of lower resists. Efficiency is nullified even if you're only resisted a few times more than the Blm. Resists are the #1 hit to damage on hard mobs not efficiency.

In reality, I love Sch. I barely touch my Blm anymore because Sch is that good. But I'm trying to remain objective. Maybe it's coming off like I'm a Sch hater? Idk, anyway it's my opinion, take it for what it's worth.
____________________________
75NIN, 75BLM, 75SCH, 75SAM, 64BRD, 41RDM, 37DNC, 37WHM, 37WAR
#11 Jul 30 2009 at 2:41 PM Rating: Good
**
824 posts
Quote:
I was responding to ElVendi's claim that he can outnuke (single nuke) a Blm without ebullience. Do you honestly believe that's the case? I was offering the OP a baseline comparison, not a HQ Sch against a gimp Blm.


I already responded to this, with this:

Quote:
A perfectly geared BLM is going to outdamage a perfectly geared SCH using all their tricks, but only per nuke, which in most situations is irrelevant.


Moving on..

Quote:
People level on puddings because their xp is great and you said it yourself, they're lolmobs. Why wouldn't you want to xp on an easy mob that gives good xp? And I never said Blm is a better soloer, you're trying to put words in my mouth. I was talking about puddings which is obviously an xp/limit situation.


People level on puddings because they don't know any better. It's decent xp, but the camp is always crowded, and all you're getting for your time invested is xp, assuming you can get pulls. Alternately, you can pull an easy 6-9k/hr soloing aerns and statues, depending on how good you are at getting to chain4, and either helping your LS or making money in the process. As a bonus, there's always an open camp somewhere. SCH without a doubt does this better than BLM, for the same reasons it does pretty much everything else better; efficiency. I wasn't attempting to put words in your mouth, just illustrating my point in yet another way. I didn't call them lolmobs because they're easy, I called them lolmobs because it's really a waste of time to ever go out to Zhayolm in the first place.

Quote:
I didn't forget about klimaform. Unless you're soloing HNMs or you're just a bad player, if you're nuking you'll probably be in a Blm pt, and you should be AoEing Klimaform anyway. So it's a wash.


This is all very good advice, but it has nothing to do with the reason i brought up Klimaform in the first place:

Quote:
320/120 is the absolute bare minimum, not what you "aim" for. A proper use of the word "easily" is that Blm can "easily" reach that, Sch...not so easy.


256 Base Elemental Skill
16 Merits
15 Scholar's Gown
7 Elemental Torque
8 Genie gages
302 Total Elemental Skill

All very easy to obtain. Add Klimaform, which is also easy to obtain, and you'll have well over the 320 HNM target. Also factor in Hailstorm for INT+7 and Cream Puffs for INT+7, and you only need somewhere between +30~+40 INT (Depending on race/merits) from gear to reach the 120 target, which is not difficult to obtain.

Quote:
Idk if you were serious about the advice on Blms stacking magic crit, I seriously hope you were joking, because that's horrible advice.


As I was referring to big-number syndrome, this was clearly sarcasm.

Quote:
Sch is a good nuker, it solos better and has better efficiency, but on big mobs, Blm has more Magic accuracy and Magic attack. That is unquestionable. It's really not that complicated. Don't take it the wrong way, but on anything that's difficult to nuke, Blm will outdamage Sch because of lower resists.


This is all true, as long as you're limiting the scope of your analysis to a single-nuke basis.

Quote:
Efficiency is nullified even if you're only resisted a few times more than the Blm. Resists are the #1 hit to damage on hard mobs not efficiency.


This is true; nothing reduces efficiency more than resists; however, I've already shown that, without the usage of any Strategems, SCH can easily hit the accepted HNM skill/INT targets. A well-geared SCH can surpass these as well, also without Strategem use. This allows SCH to use Parsimony spam to maximize their efficiency and continue nuking long after the BLMs have taken a knee. Again, there is really no competition here.
____________________________
rdmcandie wrote:
RDM can attain an almost static 50% reduction to recast time, SCH can over shoot this for a total of 60% reduction under Alacrity (provided you are wearing loafers and keeping dark weather on yourself)

rdmcandie wrote:
MACC is a joke, any job with access to mage gear can hit close the MACC cap on legion mobs, which is why my BRD/RDM can land slow/para/blind despite having only 150 skill (from /RDM.)
#12 Jul 30 2009 at 2:56 PM Rating: Good
Avatar
**
957 posts
Quote:
I didn't forget about klimaform. Unless you're soloing HNMs or you're just a bad player, if you're nuking you'll probably be in a Blm pt, and you should be AoEing Klimaform anyway. So it's a wash.


No. AoE weather Yes; AoE Klimaform no.

BLM's don't need; and shouldn't base their strategies around AoE Klimaform. SCH's do. Klimaform is pretty much self-use only unless your SCH is not nuking at all.

Quote:
Sch is a good nuker, it solos better and has better efficiency, but on big mobs, Blm has more Magic accuracy and Magic attack. That is unquestionable. It's really not that complicated. Don't take it the wrong way, but on anything that's difficult to nuke, Blm will outdamage Sch because of lower resists. Efficiency is nullified even if you're only resisted a few times more than the Blm. Resists are the #1 hit to damage on hard mobs not efficiency.


Lower resists are non-issue; as proper use of klimaform pretty much negates this problem. I'd even go as far as saying that I'm more accurate than the BLM's.


In reality; the only drawbacks of SCH compared to BLM are the lack of Stun (Important) and the situationally useful -GA nukes. On everything else; SCH should come ahead - Even on resistant mobs.

____________________________
It is better wither to be silent, or to say things of more value than silence. Sooner throw a pearl at hazard than an idle or useless word; and do not say a little in many words, but a great deal in a few.
- Pythagoras
#13 Jul 30 2009 at 3:15 PM Rating: Excellent
**
824 posts
Quote:
No. AoE weather Yes; AoE Klimaform no.

BLM's don't need; and shouldn't base their strategies around AoE Klimaform. SCH's do. Klimaform is pretty much self-use only unless your SCH is not nuking at all.


This really depends on your group. I agree that the BLMs shouldn't base their strategies around AoE Klimaform, but it is still useful on HNM, as it allows them to drop some/all of their accuracy gear for more damage. If you find yourself buffing a BLM pt more often than not, you might want to see if you can work this out with your BLMs. 4 BLMs (assuming RDM/BRD/COR is present) dealing even 50 more damage per nuke this way is a great way to make that MP even more well spent.

I think it's important to think of Klimaform as a tool to increase the damage you can deal per nuke, as opposed to a crutch to bring resists down to manageable levels.

For example, I use Klimaform quite often when soloing. I'll start off the fight with Hailstorm+Klimaform and use my max damage gear, including Morgana's Cotehardie.

Cryohelix > Blizzard4 > Blizzard3 > Drain/Aspir > Bind > Blizzard4.

At this point Klimaform should just about be gone, so I'll switch to the appropriate build for whatever I'm fighting to finish it off. I've really seen some great results with this, although of course depending on your gear/merits/etc. your mileage will vary.

Quote:
Lower resists are non-issue; as proper use of klimaform pretty much negates this problem. I'd even go as far as saying that I'm more accurate than the BLM's.


I've certainly felt this way before as well, depending on the BLM, but it is definitely a case-by-case basis. A pimp BLM is a pimp BLM.
____________________________
rdmcandie wrote:
RDM can attain an almost static 50% reduction to recast time, SCH can over shoot this for a total of 60% reduction under Alacrity (provided you are wearing loafers and keeping dark weather on yourself)

rdmcandie wrote:
MACC is a joke, any job with access to mage gear can hit close the MACC cap on legion mobs, which is why my BRD/RDM can land slow/para/blind despite having only 150 skill (from /RDM.)
#14 Jul 30 2009 at 3:50 PM Rating: Decent
**
315 posts
So Blms don't need klimaform, but you'd say you're more accurate than them as long as you have it? That doesn't make any sense. They are either at capped Macc, or they're not. In case of the latter, give the **** Blms klimaform.

I don't understand this:

Quote:
No. AoE weather Yes; AoE Klimaform no.

BLM's don't need; and shouldn't base their strategies around AoE Klimaform. SCH's do. Klimaform is pretty much self-use only unless your SCH is not nuking at all.


Then you turn around and write this:

Quote:
Lower resists are non-issue; as proper use of klimaform pretty much negates this problem. I'd even go as far as saying that I'm more accurate than the BLM's.


So which is it? You can't have it both ways.

And not sharing Klimaform is selfish. Since your Blms aren't close to capping Macc, (which you implied yourself) you need to rethink this strategy. Stop trying to be Mr. Awesome, help out your alliance man.


____________________________
75NIN, 75BLM, 75SCH, 75SAM, 64BRD, 41RDM, 37DNC, 37WHM, 37WAR
#15 Jul 30 2009 at 4:13 PM Rating: Good
19 posts
That is one of my issues with the attitude of the scholar boards. Its all scholars vs. the black mages. In an alliance in a big fight, a stun rotation is great, and blms magic bursting burst 2 off a light skillchain is going to beat anything a scholar will do. Scholars can add a lot with aoe klimaform and stormsurge, why is everything with scholars can we fill every gear slot to nuke and beat the black mages. Low man is one thing, but in an alliance we have more than enough refresh as a rule, and most black mages work together in several events and we do fine.

Not saying a sch isn't a welcome addition to the black mage party, but often they are used better in a tank party or aoe support. If you want to gear sch to straight nuke, its fine I guess, but scholars can do a lot more. As for the tit for tat, I have never see a sch outdamage me on a nuke vs. nuke basis. There are a lot of gimp black mages though, it traditionally has been one of the most popular jobs, and some people just level it to get into end game shells. They put a bad name on serious black mages.
#16 Jul 30 2009 at 5:15 PM Rating: Default
Scholar
Avatar
**
600 posts
PhantaOfHades wrote:
Hello^^

I am a BLM75 and SCH37 and I have a couple of questions to the SCH community if you dont mind enlightening me. I am curious as to how you compare to BLM on the offensive end of course. I'm currently looking at possibly leveling SCH as my next job and I just want to make sure I know what I'm getting into before taking it to 75.

First off, how do you compare in end game situations? Does your lower skill keep you from landing nukes consistently or no? How about your damage compared to BLM? I mainly do sky/sea/dynamis, but any examples would be very appreciated.

For those of you that have SCH AND BLM at 75, do you find one of them to be useless or are they just situational? If so, how?

Any other info that you think I might be interested in please post. I appreciate any replies. Thanks

*sniff* *sniff*..............I could be wrong but, I smell a troll (>.>)
____________________________

Quote:
Fiddle Faddle!

#17 Jul 30 2009 at 5:54 PM Rating: Good
*
66 posts
I can guarantee you that I am not a troll.

I just dont know much about SCH as it's not a very popular job (at least on my server) so I dont get to play with them much, and I dont want to take the job from 37->75 only to never use it because I have BLM levelled.

I'm not even sure why I'm defending myself on a perfectly legitimate question, but it's whatever.

For all of the people that replied, I thank you again. I've learned a lot about the difference between SCH and BLM and I continue to learn every time I revisit this thread.
#18 Jul 30 2009 at 9:43 PM Rating: Decent
***
2,976 posts
Of course, no one mentions that by switching from Light Arts after using Accession (for AoE weather) and back into Dark Arts ready to nuke (Since we need Addendum) that you've effectively used up half your strategems before you've even had the time to fire off a Parsimony/Alacrity or Ebullience.

Scholar might well be an exceptionally MP-conserving job, but ONLY with those extremely vital strategems. And if you're swapping arts like this to add weather to a BLM party, you're not going to be able to use Parsimony for every nuke unless you wait 4 minutes between nukes. And thats BEFORE even considering Manifestation to AoE your Klimaform spell.

Quote:
Not to downplay the signifigance of using Obis, but BLM has Sorcerer's Ring. Obis help an awful lot and I always use them to the fullest, but all things considered BLM just has more options for pure damage gear.
Agreed. But, it's situational where Obi/Storms are not. You need to be <50% MP when your nuke fires to qualify for the 10% damage bonus. A Scholar, on the other hand, gets the damage bonus at all times. That's the only distinction I made.

Quote:
Saying a fully merited SCH is no match against a fully merited BLM is extremely misleading, because in many situations it is simply not true. To be honest it's kinda like the old 2005 debate between spike damage and DoT from melees. Eventually everyone agreed that DoT is better, so I'm hoping that eventually people will apply that same logic to this argument.
You're still missing all the pieces to this puzzle. Firstly the fact that SCH has NO native MAB. Secondly the fact that BLM has access to potency merits, and superior levels of MAB through gear. Fact is, if a BLM geared for damage, they'd level a SCH in terms of damage per nuke.

I'm not trying to downplay DoT, but most good nukers know when to hold back. You don't spam back to back unless you're manaburning, otherwise you'll get flattened by the enmity generated. Short rests can easily recover enough MP to ready another Tier IV nuke and you're ready to go blasting again.

Edited, Jul 31st 2009 1:49am by Crystan
____________________________
R.I.P. Crystan FFXI
75WHM 75SCH 75RDM 75SMN
#19 Jul 30 2009 at 10:22 PM Rating: Excellent
**
824 posts
Quote:
Of course, no one mentions that by switching from Light Arts after using Accession (for AoE weather) and back into Dark Arts ready to nuke (Since we need Addendum) that you've effectively used up half your strategems before you've even had the time to fire off a Parsimony/Alacrity or Ebullience.


Absolutely, you only have so many Strategems at any given time. We get lots of spells and toys, but we're limited by Strategem recast. This is a core concept of the job. If you're focused on buffing a BLM party, you can't be spamming charges on nukes.

Quote:
Scholar might well be an exceptionally MP-conserving job, but ONLY with those extremely vital strategems. And if you're swapping arts like this to add weather to a BLM party, you're not going to be able to use Parsimony for every nuke unless you wait 4 minutes between nukes. And thats BEFORE even considering Manifestation to AoE your Klimaform spell.


Again, I'm not sure what you're getting at here. Nobody is claiming SCH can outnuke BLM while mainhealing the tank party and buffing the BLMs.

Quote:
Agreed. But, it's situational where Obi/Storms are not. You need to be <50% MP when your nuke fires to qualify for the 10% damage bonus. A Scholar, on the other hand, gets the damage bonus at all times. That's the only distinction I made.


You're thinking of Uggalepih Pendant, which SCH can also use. Sorcerer's Ring is BLM only, MAB+10 when <75% HP, which they can activate 100% with some macro work.

Quote:
You're still missing all the pieces to this puzzle. Firstly the fact that SCH has NO native MAB.


SCH gains 20% MAB from /RDM, 24% from /BLM. BLM has 32% natively. I suppose you could argue other SJ choices, but I think the two listed would be most likely for a SCH planning to nuke.

Quote:
Secondly the fact that BLM has access to potency merits, and superior levels of MAB through gear. Fact is, if a BLM geared for damage, they'd level a SCH in terms of damage per nuke.


I'll disregard this, as I never made this claim; in fact, I've supported it in previous posts:

Quote:
A perfectly geared BLM is going to outdamage a perfectly geared SCH using all their tricks


Quote:
Quote:

Sch is a good nuker, it solos better and has better efficiency, but on big mobs, Blm has more Magic accuracy and Magic attack. That is unquestionable. It's really not that complicated. Don't take it the wrong way, but on anything that's difficult to nuke, Blm will outdamage Sch because of lower resists.


This is all true, as long as you're limiting the scope of your analysis to a single-nuke basis.


Moving on..

Quote:
I'm not trying to downplay DoT, but most good nukers know when to hold back. You don't spam back to back unless you're manaburning, otherwise you'll get flattened by the enmity generated. Short rests can easily recover enough MP to ready another Tier IV nuke and you're ready to go blasting again.


I raise you:

Quote:
The amount of damage you can cause to a mob is usually limited by 2 factors; MP remaining, and if in a non-solo situation, Enmity. SCH destroys BLM in efficiency in both respects.


I really understand where you're coming from, because holding back to avoid gaining hate and short rests for MP are what BLM has had to deal with since the servers started. What you described is exactly how a BLM should play; however, SCH has tools that allow it to reduce/eliminate the need for short rests (Parsimony/Sublimation), and the need to space their nukes out to avoid excessive enmity generation (Enmity- sets, Equanimity). Damage per nuke is irrelevant when you can simply cast so many more of them.

http://kanican.livejournal.com/ can explain it much better if you still have any doubts. The graphs illustrate it quite nicely.
____________________________
rdmcandie wrote:
RDM can attain an almost static 50% reduction to recast time, SCH can over shoot this for a total of 60% reduction under Alacrity (provided you are wearing loafers and keeping dark weather on yourself)

rdmcandie wrote:
MACC is a joke, any job with access to mage gear can hit close the MACC cap on legion mobs, which is why my BRD/RDM can land slow/para/blind despite having only 150 skill (from /RDM.)
#20 Jul 30 2009 at 10:35 PM Rating: Good
Avatar
**
957 posts
Quote:
And not sharing Klimaform is selfish. Since your Blms aren't close to capping Macc, (which you implied yourself) you need to rethink this strategy. Stop trying to be Mr. Awesome, help out your alliance man.


I'm pretty sure I implied the opposite when I stated they don't need it. Here is the gist of it explained in detail:

BLM's don't need klimaform: They can cap Magic Accu on their own (330+/120 or 320/140+ builds).
SCH's can only reach the surface of the first tier (320/120); which isn't going to cap you on resistant mobs.

Assuming only 1 Strat consume for Klima:
Klimaform Allows a BLM with Capped Accu to go Full Damage 1 minute out of every 6.
Klimaform allows a SCH to go from 80%ish Accu to almost Full Damage 2 minutes out of every 3.

Based on this; I'm highly highly doubting AoEing Klimaform will do more damage than Self-Use (If SCH is nuking). Selfishness has nothing to do with it.


As for the "More accurate" Comment; it was simply a comparison after adding in Klimaform (30-50 M.Accu). We're both capped at that point.



Edited, Jul 31st 2009 1:39am by Drakonite
____________________________
It is better wither to be silent, or to say things of more value than silence. Sooner throw a pearl at hazard than an idle or useless word; and do not say a little in many words, but a great deal in a few.
- Pythagoras
#21 Jul 30 2009 at 11:33 PM Rating: Excellent
**
824 posts
Quote:
BLM's don't need klimaform: They can cap Magic Accu on their own (330+/120 or 320/140+ builds).
SCH's can only reach the surface of the first tier (320/120); which isn't going to cap you on resistant mobs.

Assuming only 1 Strat consume for Klima:
Klimaform Allows a BLM with Capped Accu to go Full Damage 1 minute out of every 6.
Klimaform allows a SCH to go from 80%ish Accu to almost Full Damage 2 minutes out of every 3.

Based on this; I'm highly highly doubting AoEing Klimaform will do more damage than Self-Use (If SCH is nuking). Selfishness has nothing to do with it.


There's a lot wrong with this.

In each example, you assert that 1 Strategem is being used on Klimaform (Manifestation for the first example, Alacrity for the second example). However you did not take into account the rate at which the strategems are used. In the first example, 1 charge is being expended on Klimaform every 6 minutes, and in the second example, 4 charges are being expended every 6 minutes. The first example is so inefficient that it would never be used by an intelligent SCH, unless perhaps one round of Klimaform will be enough to finish off the target. In the second example, you're burning the majority of your strategems in an attempt to cap your own accuracy, which is also highly inefficient. You are comparing extremes that are generally not a feasible way to play.

You also are not taking into account the fact that there will be multiple BLMs benefitting from Klimaform, while only you benefit from Alacrity spamming it on yourself. Remember that BLM has access to much better damage gear than SCH does, so it will benefit more from using a max damage set than SCH will. Multiply this by 2-4 BLMs and I can't help but be skeptical that self-Alacrity+Klimaform will produce better results than Manifestation+Alacrity+Klimaform, even factoring in the extra Strategem used.

Lastly, I think most are assuming that by burning 3 Strategems every 3 minutes on Accession+Storm / Manifestation+Alacrity+Klimaform, SCH's DoT capability drops to 0. This is not the case; Helices(Although yes, of dubious use on HNM), Drain, Tier1-3 nukes are all available without Addendum: Black, and you'll still be gaining the benefits of Storm+Klimaform for one minute out of every 3. Also, don't forget about Enlightenment, which can be used to cast a tierIV spell. Granted it's only once per 5-10 minutes depending on your merits, but it's just another example of using SCH's incredible flexibility to your advantage.

To illustrate, this is how I operate in a BLM party:

-Light Arts > Accession > Storm
-Dark Arts > Alacrity > Manifestation > Klimaform
-Enlightenment > tierIV > Helix if feasible
-Chain nuke tier1-3 until Klimaform wears off
-Rest MP > Light Arts > Spot cure/debuff/whatever
-Repeat

In this role, I'm adding a good deal of damage output to the entire party, including my own. Of course, my individual damage won't be on par with what the BLMs put out, but I guarantee that if you add the extra damage the BLMs deal with Storm+Klimaform to my damage, and then compare it to how much damage I would be doing by just spamming Klimaform on myself, sharing wins.
____________________________
rdmcandie wrote:
RDM can attain an almost static 50% reduction to recast time, SCH can over shoot this for a total of 60% reduction under Alacrity (provided you are wearing loafers and keeping dark weather on yourself)

rdmcandie wrote:
MACC is a joke, any job with access to mage gear can hit close the MACC cap on legion mobs, which is why my BRD/RDM can land slow/para/blind despite having only 150 skill (from /RDM.)
#22 Jul 31 2009 at 2:31 AM Rating: Good
*
109 posts
Rofl.. Looks like this thread got away from me from the last time i looked at it... I'll try to organize my thoughts the best I can from what I read so far.

@Fermion
Your right.. I do use the word "easily" a lot.. hadn't even realized it. If you prefer though.. I could use Smoothly, Effortlessly, with no difficulty.. w/e. I often presume what's easy for me should undoubtedly be easy for others. But this is failed logic considering we all play differently and enjoy doing things differently.

Fermion wrote:
I was responding to ElVendi's claim that he can outnuke (single nuke) a Blm without ebullience. Do you honestly believe that's the case? I was offering the OP a baseline comparison, not a HQ Sch against a gimp Blm.


Here.

ElVendi wrote:
With that said Sch can come ******* close[/b] to Blm dmg without using Ebullence, easily surpass them with using it(when comparing same spells), and over all dmg with using full mp pool can easily surpass Blm dmg potential(using gems appropriately).


Maybe you read it too fast or w/e, But clearly I never said that I can do more dmg than a Blm without Ebullence per spell.



LyltiaofLakshmi wrote:
Quote:Fermion
There's that word again. Both jobs can get chain 5 on puddings with a little luck. Chain 4 is pretty much a given once you get a solid strategy down.


Puddings never matter. I understand that's what everyone merits on (Why, I'll never know), but they're lolmobs. It's like comparing which melee can kill a Colibri faster. You want to see which job solos better, go kill some aerns or statues or something. I assure you, SCH is much more efficient when soloing real mobs.


Couple things to keep in mind about your puddings. Not in all cases, but regardless of your chain4-5, Sch is still more mp efficient meaning its likely engaging the next mob quicker. So though both jobs may be able to both get chain 4-5, Sch can likely do it quicker. meaning faster exp over time. I will state that I cant prove this on puddings, cuz like Lyl said, their lolmobs and I dont fight them. I dont see the point in fighting things that cant net me gil or beneficial items at the same time. 2 birds!!

As for 320/110, I'm not embarrassed to say I goofed, so ty for pointing it out >.>



Besides the idiocy in my repetitive words(easily), the things i said still hold true. You exasperatedly labeled me as being biased in regards to whats better where as the intro to my post was:

ElVendi wrote:
Blm inherently can do better dmg than Sch, and have an easier time gearing and doing it for that matter. This is on a singular nuke basis. So imo the Sch vs Blm idea is silly.


and I closed with:

ElVendi wrote:
Like i said, the jobs really shouldnt be compared. Ya they share some qualities, but if ya want pure unbiased dmg on a mob, choose blm, if ya want a different more indepth job with some more versatility, than sch mite fit your needs. Either way.. I dont think you will regret leveling sch to 75.


The OP was looking for some type of feedback that would prove to him that the job wasn't a waste of time. I believe I did so, while still acknowledging where Blm is proficient.



Edited, Jul 31st 2009 6:38am by ElVendi
____________________________
Bst75, Sch75, Brd75, War75, Rdm75, Sam 75
#23 Jul 31 2009 at 4:58 AM Rating: Default
***
2,976 posts
Quote:
however, SCH has tools that allow it to reduce/eliminate the need for short rests (Parsimony/Sublimation), and the need to space their nukes out to avoid excessive enmity generation (Enmity- sets, Equanimity). Damage per nuke is irrelevant when you can simply cast so many more of them.
Firstly, I'd like to point out that Equanimity eats up 2 strategems to use. That means you can either fire off 2 understrengthened nukes or 1 powerful nuke with reduced enmity at a whopping cost of THREE strategems. Thats another 3 minutes recharging your next spell and thats without using Parsimony to reduce the MP costs. To quote this as SCH's saving grace for enmity is really a lost cause, since it's high cost makes it anything but.

Furthermore, there are very few -enmity gears that SCH can use which BLM cannot. I'm not sure where you're getting the large boost in enmity reduction from, especially if you're working towards that 320/120 skill/int for high level mobs.

I'll give you Sublimation. That's undeniably one of our strongest assets in a long-haul fight, but it takes a good while to charge and it's unlikely that you'll be equipping the relic body for the whole duration if you're required to nuke, since it's hardly the best choice. AF hat is decent enough, but doesn't offer that Elemental Skill to help you reach your target. If you're swapping to Argute Mortarboard, you can lower that Sublimation down by another point. That's a 2 pt "Refresh" effect, which is not particularly impressive after all.

Truthfully, im certain SCH can do a comparable job at keeping up with BLM, I really am, but im still doubtful that a SCH can outperform a BLM in sheer damage and DoT, even given their impressive slew of abilities. The strategems we use play a vital role in our longevity as well as our spell's final damage, and overusing them to get the effects you mentioned means waiting a good time for them to return.
____________________________
R.I.P. Crystan FFXI
75WHM 75SCH 75RDM 75SMN
#24 Jul 31 2009 at 5:43 AM Rating: Excellent
**
824 posts
Quote:
Firstly, I'd like to point out that Equanimity eats up 2 strategems to use. That means you can either fire off 2 understrengthened nukes or 1 powerful nuke with reduced enmity at a whopping cost of THREE strategems. Thats another 3 minutes recharging your next spell and thats without using Parsimony to reduce the MP costs. To quote this as SCH's saving grace for enmity is really a lost cause, since it's high cost makes it anything but.


Category 2 Dark Arts Strategems merits are for Tabula Rasa. I included it for completion's sake, and did not quote it as SCH's saving grace in any situation.

Quote:
Furthermore, there are very few -enmity gears that SCH can use which BLM cannot. I'm not sure where you're getting the large boost in enmity reduction from, especially if you're working towards that 320/120 skill/int for high level mobs.


Of course, BLM can carry and equip enough Enmity- gear to reach the cap. However, it requires an enormous investment of inventory slots in gear that a BLM would not normallly carry, whereas SCH is already carrying an Enmity- set for Light Arts; the opportunity cost in inventory space for an Enmity- set on BLM is exponentially higher. In regards to accuracy, both jobs would take a severe hit to their accuracy as a result of switching from accuracy to Enmity- gear; however, SCH has access to Klimaform to replace the lost accuracy, while BLM just sucks it up.

Quote:
I'll give you Sublimation. That's undeniably one of our strongest assets in a long-haul fight, but it takes a good while to charge and it's unlikely that you'll be equipping the relic body for the whole duration if you're required to nuke, since it's hardly the best choice. AF hat is decent enough, but doesn't offer that Elemental Skill to help you reach your target. If you're swapping to Argute Mortarboard, you can lower that Sublimation down by another point. That's a 2 pt "Refresh" effect, which is not particularly impressive after all.


This is all rather obvious and largely irrelevant. As with all jobs, Refresh gear is idle gear, so of course you're not gaining the full effects any time you're casting spells. The fact remains that BLM has access to 1MP/tick refresh under normal circumstances (i.e. not Assault) and SCH has access to 2~4MP/tick. You can argue about maximizing efficiency with gearswaps, but any such arguments apply to both jobs, and therefore do not matter.

Quote:
Truthfully, im certain SCH can do a comparable job at keeping up with BLM, I really am, but im still doubtful that a SCH can outperform a BLM in sheer damage and DoT, even given their impressive slew of abilities. The strategems we use play a vital role in our longevity as well as our spell's final damage, and overusing them to get the effects you mentioned means waiting a good time for them to return.


This is your opinion and you are more than entitled to it, but there's a lot of pretty simple math that's been done that shows this is beyond doubt.
____________________________
rdmcandie wrote:
RDM can attain an almost static 50% reduction to recast time, SCH can over shoot this for a total of 60% reduction under Alacrity (provided you are wearing loafers and keeping dark weather on yourself)

rdmcandie wrote:
MACC is a joke, any job with access to mage gear can hit close the MACC cap on legion mobs, which is why my BRD/RDM can land slow/para/blind despite having only 150 skill (from /RDM.)
#25 Jul 31 2009 at 8:13 AM Rating: Decent
Avatar
**
957 posts
I really shouldn't have to explain how to properly use Klimaform with Alacrity (Hint: you really don't pair it every time; as your own MP won't allow it).

And again: the benefit an individual member gets from from non-capped with a full resist setup, to a pretty much full damage with capped for pretty much all his nukes; will outdo 4 individuals going from Capped with a mixed set to Full damage for maybe 3 nukes each.




This is not even considering the logistics behind that. It might work the first round around; I'll give you that. But afterwards is folly to believe every BLM will be up on their toes for the next round of Klimaform.

And of course, there's the issue of same element Spam on the mob. If every BLM wants to get the most out of there 1 minute of Klimaform; they'll all be spamming the same element. Which will most likely lead to some serious reduction in the damage.
And if they don't abuse klima... then why use AoE klimaform in the first place?




And I don't even know why you bring Helixes into this. As much as I love them; they have no place in highly resistant mobs.

____________________________
It is better wither to be silent, or to say things of more value than silence. Sooner throw a pearl at hazard than an idle or useless word; and do not say a little in many words, but a great deal in a few.
- Pythagoras
#26 Jul 31 2009 at 9:48 AM Rating: Excellent
**
824 posts
Quote:
And again: the benefit an individual member gets from from non-capped with a full resist setup, to a pretty much full damage with capped for pretty much all his nukes; will outdo 4 individuals going from Capped with a mixed set to Full damage for maybe 3 nukes each.


The only way this could only maybe, possibly be true is if you had near perfect gear, and your BLMs were all subpar to horrible. I'm even skeptical if this is the case. You are forgetting that you can still deal damage even without using Addendum: Black for tierIV nukes. You must take this into account when comparing the two strategies, else you are not contributing as much as you could be and the entire issue is moot.

Quote:
And of course, there's the issue of same element Spam on the mob. If every BLM wants to get the most out of there 1 minute of Klimaform; they'll all be spamming the same element. Which will most likely lead to some serious reduction in the damage.
And if they don't abuse klima... then why use AoE klimaform in the first place?


If I read this correctly, you are mistaken as to how NMs build resistance.

Quote:
This is not even considering the logistics behind that. It might work the first round around; I'll give you that. But afterwards is folly to believe every BLM will be up on their toes for the next round of Klimaform.


One minute nuking, 2 minutes downtime. 2 minutes downtime = 11 ticks of hMP. Any BLM with a halfway decent hMP set is going to recover 600MP at the least in that period of time. Then factor in Refresh... if you're not going to think your ideas through before you post and just try to counter whatever points I make, there really isn't much point to this debate, which is a shame, because I was enjoying it.

Quote:
And I don't even know why you bring Helixes into this. As much as I love them; they have no place in highly resistant mobs.


Just because you're in a BLM party doesn't mean you're fighting Tiamat. Einherjar comes to mind.
____________________________
rdmcandie wrote:
RDM can attain an almost static 50% reduction to recast time, SCH can over shoot this for a total of 60% reduction under Alacrity (provided you are wearing loafers and keeping dark weather on yourself)

rdmcandie wrote:
MACC is a joke, any job with access to mage gear can hit close the MACC cap on legion mobs, which is why my BRD/RDM can land slow/para/blind despite having only 150 skill (from /RDM.)
« Previous 1 2 3 4
Reply To Thread

Colors Smileys Quote OriginalQuote Checked Help

 

Recent Visitors: 1 All times are in CST
Anonymous Guests (1)