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#1 Jun 12 2009 at 11:26 PM Rating: Default
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Because my other topic was sub-defaulted. Reason I ran from that topic because after the first rate down, I felt I was only going to be met with unreasonable hostility from posters. Its not a "pity-party" or a "feel bad for me" topic. I was merely expressing how that crap was making me feel. Keep your shirts on, I've done a lot of testing and a lot of research(a lot of reading) since then.

Anyway replying to posts from that topic:
Priphea wrote:

Right. A problem with your character, 1 of 1000000 only.

How many Elemental Skill merits do you have? Get them.
Invest in Genie Gages. Maybe try to get Yigit Gages.
Try to get Goliard Clogs.
Switch Immortal's Sash to a Penitent's Rope.

Do you need even more Elemental Skill? Look into Druid's Slops.

There's a reason people on HNMs shoot for 320 Elemental Skill and 120 INT, flopping around with 280 skill and 118 INT and then wondering why they're doing 1100+ and you are getting resisted all over the place is not really a mystery.


I don't do HNMs. Never camped one. I was 100% dynamis but RDM only. I would be happy if I got over 1100. I've read about the 320/120 rule yesterday. With my current gear the very best I can get is 296 skill/126 int. The 296 being gained from merits.

I have 1 merit in elemental. I'm kicking myself for dumping so many into RDM. I wish I could take them off and then put them into elemental but you can't do that. So back to the uphill climb.

I got the slops. I accept that getting full damage on campaign mobs is pointless, I've seen BLMs with top gear get stupid resists on those mobs, so not going by that anymore. But going out and testing on regular exp mobs, and Thunder IV(dont have HQ though) = 1074, Blizzard IV = 1079.

Taking off the AF hat and putting on elite baret = these numbers decrease. I suppose what Im looking at is the numbers I can do when unresisted...so I should be going for more int in those cases.

I saw the gloves, I thought that was an assault item, but its bought from the AH too, so I'm gonna start saving to get those.

knightfell wrote:
Quote:
AF hat
AF body
errant cuffs
Elemental torque
Diamond rings 2x
Moldavite earring
Phantom Tathlum
Phantom earring
Immortal sash
Red cape +1
Mahatma slops
Cobra Crackows


Not 75 SCH yet, but you might want to consider changing your nuke set slighltly.

This is what I will likely be wearing for my Dark Arts SCH once I am 75.

Just off the top of my head I would replace

AF+1 hat is nice for max damage, Relic is useful if resiting. Ree Hablo's Headgear is nifty as well, from Wotg.

ACP body can be made into a weskit of sorts, the downside is that it looks like a dress. Think there are other options but can't remember atm.

Errant Cuffs >> Goliard would be best +4 Magic Acc +4 Mab / Genie Gages +8 Elemental / Some Wotg Gloves that give +5 Mab

Elemental Torque is nifty, though you should try and get ahold of a Uggy Pendant for when you can proc the MP latent.

I would shoot for a Tamas / Omega / Balhran's

Moldy is spiffy, Novio would look nice next to it, barring that Wotg has a +2 Mab (Crapuad?) earring

Pentinants rope / Witch Sash / Sch AF belt for waist

Gleeman's / Prism / Errant / Astute(?) +5 elemental sea cape would work for your back.

I'd chuck those Cobra feet and replace with Goliard / Yigit.

If I missed any options sorry, Best of luck to ya.

Edit: And cap those elemental merits, on BLM they are useful, I can only imagine how much of a boost they are for SCH.

CoP related items are out of the question because Im stuck on the promies. Only excuse I have is too many bad parties. Most of which you have listed though can be bought and/or BC'd(and salvage?) so I should be able to get help with that.

Hmm, it seems SCH needs to have a lot or all of the top gear to match BLM. Im not really trying to match them though, I just don't like having all these resists. I try to avoid doing much of endgame because its time taxing, but I like SCH so much, that I just might make one last run for it.

Hopefully my next topic on this is of good results.
#2 Jun 13 2009 at 1:03 AM Rating: Decent
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I have 1 merit in elemental. I'm kicking myself for dumping so many into RDM. I wish I could take them off and then put them into elemental but you can't do that. So back to the uphill climb.
You can remove merits, but they're not refunded, so if you wanted to you really could put them into elemental, but you'd have to work for the merits all over again.

Quote:
CoP related items are out of the question because Im stuck on the promies. Only excuse I have is too many bad parties. Most of which you have listed though can be bought and/or BC'd(and salvage?) so I should be able to get help with that.

Hmm, it seems SCH needs to have a lot or all of the top gear to match BLM. Im not really trying to match them though, I just don't like having all these resists. I try to avoid doing much of endgame because its time taxing, but I like SCH so much, that I just might make one last run for it.

Hopefully my next topic on this is of good results.

Sounds to me you're doing fine damage-wise. We're never going to top a BLM for sheer damage output, but a 1000-1100 damage tier IV is really average damage for our nukes. I've topped 1400 damage before, but only on those extremely rare 'critical' nukes and with the benefit of weather bonuses behind me. My average nuke damage for Blizard IV is 1100 and Thunder IV is 1180 (assuming no resists). I don't have my HQ staff for Thunder IV, but I always use Aquilo's for ice spells.

If you don't really do endgame, you shouldn't find your nuke damage to be a big problem. The magic 320/120 is for powerful HNM monsters and while reaching it will certainly help against other enemies, you might be better off sticking with INT rather than elemental skill when you're not being resisted as the damage will be higher.

But I strongly advise getting those elemental merits if you want to nuke well. It takes a massive strain off equipment choices and frees up those slots to pile on the extra INT for damage. I have 8/8 elemental merits, 8/8 enfeebling and never looked back. There's not really much else to merit on the magic side which has so great an impact.
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#3 Jun 13 2009 at 1:40 AM Rating: Decent
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Because my other topic was sub-defaulted. Reason I ran from that topic because after the first rate down, I felt I was only going to be met with unreasonable hostility from posters.


I don't blame ya there, however you'll jus have to get used to it. This site is plagued with thousands of elitist know it alls that think their word is god, and if you oppose it, well sh*t on you.

Quote:
I have 1 merit in elemental. I'm kicking myself for dumping so many into RDM. I wish I could take them off and then put them into elemental but you can't do that. So back to the uphill climb.


Actually you can do that. You have the option to "lower" any merit you put in. Sure it sux cuz you put the effort and time into getting them but.... if you want to better yourself in other areas, its pretty much what you'll have to do.


Quote:
I got the slops.


errant/mahatma slops > druids even in terms of resists.


Quote:
I accept that getting full damage on campaign mobs is pointless, I've seen BLMs with top gear get stupid resists on those mobs, so not going by that anymore.


Indeed it is quite pointless, so I'm glad you made that change. If you really wanna give your sch nuke sets some challenge and testing, go to sky and play with some Aura statues. You just might score a diorite (yay for gil!!) and you'll also know where you stand vs semi-resistant mobs. If you can get your nukes to land consistantly on those guy, im purtty sure you'll be quite alright with anything not HNM.

Quote:
Taking off the AF hat and putting on elite baret = these numbers decrease. I suppose what Im looking at is the numbers I can do when unresisted...so I should be going for more int in those cases.


Actually I don't believe you're thinkin down the right track here. What you should really be looking for is a balance of both unresisted nukes + as much dmg as you can get into those unresisted nukes. Yes taking of gear with INT or MAB will reduce your numbers if swapped for ele skill, but your current problem of resists will also diminish, thus doing more damage in the long run.

Let's say that you got resisted 2 out of every 5 nukes (seems about right according to what im gettin from ya). and lets say since you were going for that max dmg you were talkin about, that the times you don't get resisted, you hit for 1100 dmg. yet when you get resisted, its like 250. so 1100, 250, 1100, 1100, 250, 1100. a total of 3,800 dmg.
Now if you dropped out some dmg, but stuck in a sh*t ton of ele skill and INT supporting gear, you're nukes would drop down to say something like 950 dmg only. So you're Q,Q about it cuz not over 1k anymore, etc. however, if you get no resists, 950 x5 is 4,750 dmg. And I think we can both see which number is REALLY the biggest.


Now better yet, lets say you found a happy medium, and you knew exactly how much ele skill gear it would take to cut out the resists, without being too much that its taking too much from your dmg, and could achieve say... 1020 dmg per nuke. Now you're toppin off at a /gleefully 6k dmg total.


My advice is to start researching all the available nuking gear (this includes INT, MAB, and ele skill), compare and contrast them, and write down a list of them to start crossin off. I'll try to do what i can while considering the things you said you couldn't get so that its semi-realistic for you to achieve:


Staves: NQ/HQ (this is a great start, get those HQ's!!)

strap/ammo: Wise Strap/bugard strap +1, phantom Tathlum, (theres more ammo that i see ppl with but i forget names, I jus use tathlum)

head: AF hat (dmg), Elite Beret (+1) (skill), Argute (though i realize this may be tough for you)

body: AF (skill), Errant/Mahatma (Dmg), Yigit (dmg) Royal Redingote (lil of both dmg and skill if you put mab and MACC on it), Morgana's Cotehardie (I don't recommend this for you though, given your situation, but once you have the skill/int to support it, it can perform better than i imagined.)

back: Rainbow/prism (dmg), Merciful (skill) (once you have sea access)

Neck: Elemental Torque (skill), Enlightened Chain (dmg), Uggy (procable dmg)

hands: errant (dmg) > yigit (dmg) > Goliard (dmg/skill), Mufflers (dmg), genie (skill), Master Caster Bracelets (skill) (windy conquest points)

Waist: here you're pretty limited, but you have Penitent's rope, and Argute

Ear: Elemental Earring (skill)(pretty expensive i know, but i dunno how fast/slow you make gil), Morion (+1) (dmg), Phantom (+1)(dmg), Moldy (dmg)

Ring: (all dmg) Diamond/omniscient, Snow

legs: Errant/Mahatma (dmg) that's really you're best choice

Feet: Highly recommend Yigit Crackows (dmg), Goliard (dmg/skill), Rostrum Pumps (dmg), Numerist Pumps (Skill) (absurdly easy to get from Tier 1 ZNM Lil Apkullu)
(though it requires a good bit of help from good players, and nearly a full alliance depending on skill levels)

* There may be things i left out, so feel free to fill in the blanks with anything you find during you're own research.

Then there's always you're good 'ol Cream Puffs. Don't forget your weather + klimaform also that you can use regularly, as well as Focalization should you choose to merit it. Also try to keep in mind that with all this gear, INT plays a big role in resist rates as well and can sometimes be just as helpful/potent as pure eleskill/MACC, depending on the INT to INT check of your opponent. So technically, all those INT pieces that I put (dmg) by are good potential candidates to help lower resists as well. Just weigh them out in comparison to your pur skill pieces to see what you favor.


In final noting, I hope this helped pave the way to a brighter future of unresisted nukes and satisfaction. Feel free to hit me up if you have any questions or would like to discuss other scenarios or options. ^,^




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#4 Jun 13 2009 at 8:16 AM Rating: Good
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Zaleshea wrote:
CoP related items are out of the question because Im stuck on the promies.

You don't need Tamas, since you can basically get the same function by having separate INT and MND rings, though you won't get the -enmity. Novio Earring is something most players can only dream about ever owning, so don't sweat that. Elemental Obis, however, are huge. If there was any reason to try and push through to getting Sea access, it's Elemental Obis. They really are that good, especially for SCH (since we can apply the weather condition we want on demand).

Zaleshea wrote:
Because my other topic was sub-defaulted. Reason I ran from that topic because after the first rate down, I felt I was only going to be met with unreasonable hostility from posters. Its not a "pity-party" or a "feel bad for me" topic. I was merely expressing how that crap was making me feel. Keep your shirts on, I've done a lot of testing and a lot of research(a lot of reading) since then.

Just because the first topic was sub-defaulted, don't create a new one. Most posters here have filters turned off.
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#5 Jun 13 2009 at 8:24 AM Rating: Default
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xXxNaobixXx wrote:
Quote:
Taking off the AF hat and putting on elite baret = these numbers decrease. I suppose what Im looking at is the numbers I can do when unresisted...so I should be going for more int in those cases.


Actually I don't believe you're thinkin down the right track here. What you should really be looking for is a balance of both unresisted nukes + as much dmg as you can get into those unresisted nukes. Yes taking of gear with INT or MAB will reduce your numbers if swapped for ele skill, but your current problem of resists will also diminish, thus doing more damage in the long run.

It should be noted that INT also provides magic accuracy in addition to raising damage. I could see swapping out a small amount of INT for large amounts of magic acc/elemental skill. But AF to Elite Beret isn't one of those cases.

296 skill with 126 INT really isn't terrible. I wonder what kind of resist rates the OP is actually seeing. I'm guessing he's not parsing (Kparser works well for calculating resist rates). Eyeballing resists isn't a good way to judge the situation. Resists are naturally going to draw your attention more, even if they're only happening once every 20 nukes.
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#6 Jun 13 2009 at 1:55 PM Rating: Decent
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Quote:
It should be noted that INT also provides magic accuracy in addition to raising damage. I could see swapping out a small amount of INT for large amounts of magic acc/elemental skill. But AF to Elite Beret isn't one of those cases.



It actually was noted. Here:

Quote:
Also try to keep in mind that with all this gear, INT plays a big role in resist rates as well and can sometimes be just as helpful/potent as pure eleskill/MACC, depending on the INT to INT check of your opponent. So technically, all those INT pieces that I put (dmg) by are good potential candidates to help lower resists as well. Just weigh them out in comparison to your pur skill pieces to see what you favor.



And it also depends on what the INT to INT check is on the mob on whether or not the beret will out perform the af or not.

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#7 Jun 13 2009 at 3:43 PM Rating: Decent
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xXxNaobixXx wrote:
Quote:

Because my other topic was sub-defaulted. Reason I ran from that topic because after the first rate down, I felt I was only going to be met with unreasonable hostility from posters.


I don't blame ya there, however you'll jus have to get used to it. This site is plagued with thousands of elitist know it alls that think their word is god, and if you oppose it, well sh*t on you.



This honestly wasn't his problem in the previous thread. His attitude really came off as having a pity-party. This time around, he has a much better attitude more worthy of receiving advice.

OP, I myself am close to reaching the pinnacle of SCH's INT. I'm doing this as an experiment on a few things. One thing I will say is, you do not need any elemental skill boosts to reach acceptable macc rates for anything EXP.

The others covered how re-arranging merits work so I'll skip past that. HQ your thunder, ice, and dark staves. Trust me... Wind is a good one to do as well but less needed. For EXP nuking, MAB will offer a lot in the damage dept. My 157 INT build is obviously a little lacking on MAB gear. For statues I land around 1300. For puddings, I land 1500ish.

Resists generally come into play for HNMs. This is where the 320/120 rule comes into play. Keep in mind that this is a minimum and not a magic number. This is generally the same as 80% acc rule for a melee job. Also keep in mind, while your INT is less than (Mob's INT + 10), 1 INT == 1 macc =~= 1 ele skill. For most HNMs that should be up until the 150 INT range.

I can give more info, but my pizza is here and typing on a blackberry takes a while.
#8 Jun 13 2009 at 10:43 PM Rating: Good
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I'd wish people would stop citing the 320/120 rule on this forum: We are Scholars, not BLM's.
When nuking HNM's, aim lower than that; but use klimaform.
My HNM build for example, only swaps my head/body/neck for skill, rest remains max damage. I've yet to find anything where I need more than that (Barring NM's not even BLM's can nuke).



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#9 Jun 14 2009 at 6:02 AM Rating: Default
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Drakonite wrote:
I'd wish people would stop citing the 320/120 rule on this forum: We are Scholars, not BLM's.
When nuking HNM's, aim lower than that; but use klimaform.


Klimaform is indeed wonderful and let's you build for more damage. HOWEVER, unless you are partied with another SCH, the majority of the time you won't have klimaform up. In its downtime, you need to still hit acceptable rates.

Most LSs don't realize the benefit of 2 SCHs in the BLM PT. They think 1 can do the same as 2.
#10 Jun 14 2009 at 10:44 AM Rating: Good
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Banggugyangu wrote:
HOWEVER, unless you are partied with another SCH, the majority of the time you won't have klimaform up. In its downtime, you need to still hit acceptable rates.

Most LSs don't realize the benefit of 2 SCHs in the BLM PT. They think 1 can do the same as 2.


Pair Klimaformw with Alacrity, problem solved. You really don't need anything else; and 30 seconds of downtime every 2 minutes shouldn't be an issue if you play it smart. Simple nukes as many as possible in those 2 minutes per cycle; and use the downtime to rebuff, or rest back (You know, the usual things we do anyways).

And quite honestly, most 320/120 setups are really pathetic on damage. A SCH nuke without it's Obi, Ears and miscellaneous INT gear is not a pretty sight.
I bet I can do more damage with Klimaform+Alacrity use than a 320/120 with 1 extra Parsimony; and most likely with even less resists.

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#11 Jun 14 2009 at 11:31 AM Rating: Decent
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What are your RDM magic merits in if not enfeebling/elemental?

If they are anything else, I'd change them.

Glad you realized Campaign mobs have the typical SE "BLMs are not welcome here" Magic Defense Bonus
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#12 Jun 14 2009 at 3:04 PM Rating: Default
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In end-game situations, I rarely use parsimony and never regret using ebbulience instead. I simply can't understand why someone would argue against making a superior build for a more than common situation that can merely be tweaked for the situation you're describing.

If you argue that the 320/120 guideline is overshooting, then you're lying to yourself and obviously others. Here's a tip: klimaform can be part of your 320/120 setup. Eyeballing over the first few months of HNMs on SCH for me followed by parsing taught me that klimaform adds roughly 50 macc for it's 60 second duration. That alone plus capped skill and merits would put you at what most BLMs ultimately strive to achieve strive to achieve with a strict INT build. Tweaking that a bit with some MAB takes damage up considerably.

You can't simply rely on klimaform though. 50 MAB is a pretty hard hit. Waiting til klimaform is ready again to start nuking is wasteful when you can simply switch gear sets a bit and keep going with a small hit to damage.

My experiment is dealing with macc on a 170 INT build vs HNMs. Only about 15 INT of that build will take the macc penalty from being more than 10 INT above the target. INT also tends to increase damage more than other things.

Any SCH not using obi's is fail.
#13 Jun 16 2009 at 12:08 PM Rating: Default
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Banggugyangu wrote:
Eyeballing over the first few months of HNMs on SCH for me followed by parsing taught me that klimaform adds roughly 50 macc for it's 60 second duration.


Didn't know eyeballing could get anyone such a good estimate for Klimaform's effect.

Banggugyangu wrote:
My experiment is dealing with macc on a 170 INT build vs HNMs. Only about 15 INT of that build will take the macc penalty from being more than 10 INT above the target. INT also tends to increase damage more than other things.


Many HNMs have nowhere near 145 INT. "Land kings" have around 85 INT (Aspid, King Behemoth), while CoP wyrms have around 120 INT (including Tiamat). Even AV is estimated to have less than 100 INT. As for ToAU HNMs, I doubt they have INT exceeding 120 INT. The only generally accepted case of a NM with extreme INT is Kirin (149 INT, no magic defense bonus). If you assume Suzaku and Genbu have +12 MDB, then their INT values are 132 and 140, respectively.

That is not to imply that amassing large amounts of INT is a bad thing unless it crowds out better improvements to magic accuracy and damage. With 170 INT, you almost definitely are.

#14 Jun 16 2009 at 1:09 PM Rating: Decent
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That is not to imply that amassing large amounts of INT is a bad thing unless it crowds out better improvements to magic accuracy and damage. With 170 INT, you almost definitely are.


I'm guessing that helices might behave a little bit differently than your standard nukes. Most people I've heard from say that INT is the most important thing to stack for these once you have taken care of any accuracy issues.

Haven't really verified this myself but I think that point for point, MAB starts having less of an effect compared to INT when base nuke power decreases. Since helices all have relatively low base power, it makes sense somewhat if that's true.
#15 Jun 16 2009 at 2:47 PM Rating: Decent
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Fynlar wrote:
I'm guessing that helices might behave a little bit differently than your standard nukes. Most people I've heard from say that INT is the most important thing to stack for these once you have taken care of any accuracy issues.

Haven't really verified this myself but I think that point for point, MAB starts having less of an effect compared to INT when base nuke power decreases. Since helices all have relatively low base power, it makes sense somewhat if that's true.


From all the number crunching and in game testing I've done for the gear SCH has access to, its always INT > MAB except for a Novio Earring. If I remember right its something like 3-4MAB to beat out 1 INT.
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#16 Jun 16 2009 at 5:56 PM Rating: Default
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Fynlar wrote:
I'm guessing that helices might behave a little bit differently than your standard nukes. Most people I've heard from say that INT is the most important thing to stack for these once you have taken care of any accuracy issues.


This is worth noting. With SCH's generally low MAB and especially for spells with low base damage, INT would be more efficient than MAB for increasing damage.

With respect to accuracy though, if 170 INT involves use of Kirin's Pole (not to mention an etude and max Stormsurge + Hailstorm, among other possible contributions outside equipment), that automatically defeats the purpose of optimizing accuracy if one is nuking or applying helices outside Klimaform.

#17 Jun 16 2009 at 10:03 PM Rating: Good
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Zagen wrote:
From all the number crunching and in game testing I've done for the gear SCH has access to, its always INT > MAB except for a Novio Earring. If I remember right its something like 3-4MAB to beat out 1 INT.

Maybe it's due to my build, but I came up with 2 MAB to beat out 1 INT.
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#18 Jun 16 2009 at 10:18 PM Rating: Decent
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Quote:
You can't simply rely on klimaform though. 50 MAB is a pretty hard hit. Waiting til klimaform is ready again to start nuking is wasteful when you can simply switch gear sets a bit and keep going with a small hit to damage.


Quite the contrary. I'd consider nuking HNM's without klimaform to be the waste.

Not only are the 320/120 builds sad on damage; but they are also still unreliable with resists. Remember this that this rule is a minimun.
In truth you'd want something around 330/120, or 320/140 just to match what klimaform offers; and I can't think of any build with this numbers that doesn't sacrifice the Ears/Waist.

But my point is not that. My point is as before; we are SCH's. When somebody asks about resists, we should point them towards Klimaform builds; not 320/120 builds.
Because 320/120 is at most just a build to use during Klimaform downtime. Kind of like using Ixion Cloak during Sublimation downtime.
Sure it can be useful, but it's not going to make or break you; and should be pretty low as a priority.



Edited, Jun 17th 2009 1:23am by Drakonite
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#19 Jun 17 2009 at 3:56 AM Rating: Good
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Glamrawkus wrote:
Banggugyangu wrote:
Eyeballing over the first few months of HNMs on SCH for me followed by parsing taught me that klimaform adds roughly 50 macc for it's 60 second duration.


Didn't know eyeballing could get anyone such a good estimate for Klimaform's effect.


While eyeballing anything is never a good idea when creating justification for a fact, there is a supreme difference between a SCH who sees other SCHs claim on a forum that they nuke for 1700 and through "eyeballing" concludes that his damage on campaign mobs sucks, and a SCH who has played BLM for years, has an inherent empyrical knowledge base to build on, and understands the mechanics inside and out "eyeballing" to see resistance levels while under the effect of Klimaform or not. The average FFXI player doesn't get the difference.
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#20 Jun 17 2009 at 4:54 AM Rating: Decent
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A claim of 50 macc is absurd, there is no other acc buff that is similar to that value (excepting food). If it was 50, you would be able to nuke wearing 1/2 your gear. I believe its more like 25 or possible 30, or 20.

Next, I don't know how someone can handle doing alacrity+klimaform. Typically on a single kilmaform I try to cast T4x2 T3x2 Helix, and the associated storm before hand. Thats ~600mp. (I ware novia to allow it, yes it gives up dmg, but I can cast more dmg over all and not pull hate, proof of fact the blm died while doing 12% less dmg than me (I was top Dmg dealer that night, 18% overall vs next blm with 16% or ~12% difference)) Then spend the next 90-120secounds resting for the next klimaform. Not all fights allow that, but alot do.

Using alacrity every time with klimaform, consumes alot of stratagems, and must not be casting that many nukes, since seems to have alot of extra mp to need to cast klimaform so often.
#21 Jun 17 2009 at 6:47 AM Rating: Decent
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Acturus wrote:
While eyeballing anything is never a good idea when creating justification for a fact, there is a supreme difference between a SCH who sees other SCHs claim on a forum that they nuke for 1700 and through "eyeballing" concludes that his damage on campaign mobs sucks, and a SCH who has played BLM for years, has an inherent empyrical knowledge base to build on, and understands the mechanics inside and out "eyeballing" to see resistance levels while under the effect of Klimaform or not. The average FFXI player doesn't get the difference.


And "eyeballing" from "experts" has allowed misleading claims (some easily refuted with KParser) to persist for years like

  • "1-hit WS need accuracy in general" (First hit of a WS receives a large accuracy bonus in general)
  • "INT has no effect on Drain and Aspir" (Accuracy is different from potency)
  • "Elemental resist sets for wyrms should be all-or-nothing. I get mad damage under 300 fire resist but hardly any above 300 fire resist!" (This concept of "tiers" is a joke pending something more substantive than ancedotes.)
  • Anything about "tiers" in general (320/120, 120 CHR soft cap, whatever)


No statistics needed to notice Klimaform provides a easily detected accuracy bonus (given the point of Klimaform, you'd be looking for one) but I'm not going to go around and say it's "around" 50 macc.
#22 Jun 17 2009 at 8:56 AM Rating: Decent
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svlyons wrote:
Maybe it's due to my build, but I came up with 2 MAB to beat out 1 INT.

On Helix Spells? This happens for IVs for sure but I've never been able to get the difference that low on Helix. What kind of build do you have and what are you testing this on?
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#23 Jun 17 2009 at 10:52 AM Rating: Good
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Zagen wrote:
svlyons wrote:
Maybe it's due to my build, but I came up with 2 MAB to beat out 1 INT.

On Helix Spells? This happens for IVs for sure but I've never been able to get the difference that low on Helix. What kind of build do you have and what are you testing this on?

Yeah, for Helix spells. For Tier IVs, the ratio is the reverse: 1 MAB beats out ~2.5 INT.

I used this magic damage calculator. The results are consistent with the magic damage formula on wiki. Helix spells have base damage of 46. 1/46 = 2.17%. As your INT goes up, 1 INT would increase D by less than that (assuming you have more INT than the target).

In my current helix build, I have 126 INT and +5 MAB (from Moldavite). And I was making my calculations based on /RDM (which would chip in +20 MAB), with targets being Ebony Puddings. I was trying to decide whether to switch my Moldavite to Morion, or perhaps buy a Morion +1. The calculator indicated Moldavite was better than even Morion +1 in that situation.

Perhaps you came up with needing twice as much MAB to outperform 1 INT because of the target you were basing your calculations on. If I had set the target's INT to something higher (like an HNM, for example), 1 INT would likely be a higher percentage of the D value.
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#24 Jun 17 2009 at 11:13 AM Rating: Good
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Ineptvagrant wrote:
Next, I don't know how someone can handle doing alacrity+klimaform. Typically on a single kilmaform I try to cast T4x2 T3x2 Helix, and the associated storm before hand. Thats ~600mp. Then spend the next 90-120secounds resting for the next klimaform. Not all fights allow that, but alot do.

Using alacrity every time with klimaform, consumes alot of stratagems, and must not be casting that many nukes, since seems to have alot of extra mp to need to cast klimaform so often.


That's pretty much what I meant about needing more than 2 minutes of klimaform. If you need more than than that, chances are you're not really nuking much.

And you don't have to use every klimaform with alacrity. If for example, you're on your last cycle before resting; don't alacrity. Resting will take long enough for klimaform to cooldown without alacrity.
Same thing goes for wyrms if your LS is sleep-nuking them. The time they spend slept will be enough for klimaform to cooldown naturally.

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#25 Jun 17 2009 at 12:12 PM Rating: Good
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svlyons wrote:
I used this magic damage calculator. The results are consistent with the magic damage formula on wiki. Helix spells have base damage of 46. 1/46 = 2.17%. As your INT goes up, 1 INT would increase D by less than that (assuming you have more INT than the target).

In my current helix build, I have 126 INT and +5 MAB (from Moldavite). And I was making my calculations based on /RDM (which would chip in +20 MAB), with targets being Ebony Puddings. I was trying to decide whether to switch my Moldavite to Morion, or perhaps buy a Morion +1. The calculator indicated Moldavite was better than even Morion +1 in that situation.

Perhaps you came up with needing twice as much MAB to outperform 1 INT because of the target you were basing your calculations on. If I had set the target's INT to something higher (like an HNM, for example), 1 INT would likely be a higher percentage of the D value.


That site actually calculates Helix damage lower than it really is.
For my build and merits it gives me:
With 123 INT(edit: using Morrion+1), 89 TargetINT, /RDM, +2MAB(Merit), NQ Staff, Day + Weather, Flan, Ebullience = 138
With 121 INT, 89 Target INT, /RDM, +7MAB(Merit/Moldy), NQ Staff, Day + Weather, Flan, Ebullience = 138

Last night I was getting 141-145 Ionhelix (Lightning Day + Thunderstorm), so its a bit off but not by much.

Using this forumla: [(yourINT-targetINT)+25]*Staff*Day/Weather*(yourMAB/targetMDB)*Damage Adjustment*Ebullience
My Build w/ Moldy: [(121 - 89) + 25] * 1.1 * 1.2 * 1.27 * 1.25 * 1.2 = 143
My Build w/ Morr.+1: [(123 - 89) + 25] * 1.1 * 1.2 * 1.22 * 1.25 * 1.2 = 142.5

Edited, Jun 17th 2009 4:48pm by Zagen

Edited, Sep 3rd 2009 4:22pm by Zagen
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#26 Jun 17 2009 at 6:43 PM Rating: Good
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Zagen wrote:
That sight actually calculates Helix damage lower than it really is.

I noticed that this afternoon after my last post. It looks like it has the base damage for Helices as 25, not 46.
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#27 Jun 17 2009 at 10:36 PM Rating: Good
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svlyons wrote:
Zagen wrote:
That sight actually calculates Helix damage lower than it really is.

I noticed that this afternoon after my last post. It looks like it has the base damage for Helices as 25, not 46.

Has to be lower since I use 25 as the base in my calculations and they are within 1-3 damage from what I do in game. I'm not sure how the number 46 was derived honestly since it makes the damage a lot higher than it actually is.
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#28 Jun 18 2009 at 3:43 AM Rating: Good
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I vaguely remember that the base damage for Helices was improved at the first SCH update.
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#29 Jun 18 2009 at 5:57 AM Rating: Default
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Auronius wrote:
What are your RDM magic merits in if not enfeebling/elemental?

If they are anything else, I'd change them.

Glad you realized Campaign mobs have the typical SE "BLMs are not welcome here" Magic Defense Bonus


Enfeebling and Convert. I'm not done with enfeebling, but the some that I have on it, I wish I put into elemental first lol. I'm one of those 7:20 convert RDMs LOL.

Naobix - that's been very helpful!

I've been doing dynamis since this past sunday. Other than the 58dmg Thunder IV on an NM, I've been doing 700 IV's on regular dynamis mobs which is sorta..relieving lol. This is my first step towards bettering myself! I hope for some AF relics. I might pass out if I get the body and hat. This dyna shell just started, so I don't have a long line, and I'm the only SCH that comes to dynamis. They even consider me as a nuker more so than anything else. Which I don't mind.

and I'm a fail SCH since I don't have obis. ;o

On a good note, my helices don't resist much at all :).

#30 Jun 18 2009 at 8:00 AM Rating: Default
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Zaleshea wrote:
and I'm a fail SCH since I don't have obis. ;o


That comment was made to say this:

If you don't have sea, you should focus on CoP missions and get it. They're not that difficult *especially with a job as versitle as SCH* and they've even been lowered in difficulty quite severely over the years.

If you DO have sea, take a few weeks, focus on farming the obis. No job gets as much benefit from the obis as SCH does. *Because no other job can manipulate his surroundings to take advantage of them.*

Regarding eyeballing klimaform. 3 BLMs sporting 330/120 builds were with me on suzaku. Myself sporting a whopping 306/130 build with about +6 macc also *early SCH days* taking major resists. When I would klimaform, I would begin to sacrifice skill and macc for INT and mab. My total difference was something like 48 macc total from the BLMs at which point I was still hitting a resist rate around the same as a BLM 330/120 build. Albeit, looking back, my math may be slightly skewed because of the added macc that the extra INT would have given me, but at the time, there wasn't MUCH more INT available to SCH. While I was testing this, I actually was using tier 1-2 blizzards in order to spam-nuke for a large amount of results in a short amount of time. My "eyeballing" is a matter of me acknowledging when my own casts were of an acceptable resistance rate comparable to other builds with which I know how much I would be resisted.

*edit* also... in the past 7 years... I have never seen ANYONE say "acc for 1 hit WSs"

Edited, Jun 18th 2009 11:01am by Banggugyangu
#31 Jun 18 2009 at 10:58 AM Rating: Decent
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* "1-hit WS need accuracy in general" (First hit of a WS receives a large accuracy bonus in general)


While that may or may not be true, most people can say they've encountered more problems with WSs like Wheeling Thrust or most SAM WSs getting a whiff when you really needed it to land than with almost any other WS. I know I have, and I know most SAMs have and hate this problem too, which is why /THF is so prevalent for them especially if they are part of a skillchain.

Edited, Jun 18th 2009 2:59pm by Fynlar
#32 Jun 18 2009 at 11:31 AM Rating: Good
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Fynlar wrote:
Quote:
* "1-hit WS need accuracy in general" (First hit of a WS receives a large accuracy bonus in general)


While that may or may not be true, most people can say they've encountered more problems with WSs like Wheeling Thrust or most SAM WSs getting a whiff when you really needed it to land than with almost any other WS. I know I have, and I know most SAMs have and hate this problem too, which is why /THF is so prevalent for them especially if they are part of a skillchain.


How can -needing- a WS to land make it less accurate? Smells like placebo.
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#33 Jun 18 2009 at 12:39 PM Rating: Decent
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Regarding the WS accuracy comment, that was a bad attempt at making a concise statement of the prevailing wisdom before people finally accepted that first hits of a WS receive a large accuracy bonus.

So it's almost February 2008, and someone asks an innocuous question about whether a single hit from a WS has more accuracy than a normal melee attack. The wrong modes of thought presented were

(1) Weapon skills were generally not any more or less accurate than a normal melee attack, barring TP modifiers. So weapon skills would require accuracy to the extent that your auto-attack would also require accuracy to achieve a desirable hit rate.

(2) Y/G/K actually was thought to incur accuracy penalties such that they made misses allegedly "too common" relative to normal melee attacks. So weapon skills would require accuracy to overcome these alleged penalties. (Maybe the existence of Hachiman armor influenced this thinking.)

I don't know how pervasive these wrong modes of thought really are. In any case, it took until early 2008 for people, after being presented with repeated, statistically significant evidence of an accuracy bonus on Y/G/K and for the first hit of Fast Blade, to accept as "conventional wisdom" that generally the first hit of a melee WS receives a large accuracy bonus. As such, there is no particular need to gear for 1-hit WS accuracy to gear for garden-variety things (unless for some reason you care about double attacks on WS or Chigre).

Even with tools like parsers it took until 2008 to figure this out, which kinda goes to show how unproductive claims based on "eyeballing" are even for things that are incredibly easy to check.

Edit: I realized I should probably make some comments pertinent to the thread.

Regarding the effect of Klimaform, anyone would be hard-pressed to believe that an 8-point difference in overall magic accuracy between 330/120 and 306/130 (+6 macc) manifests in profoundly more resists unless your sample size is sufficient, which you did not report. (I stated earlier that I estimated Suzaku's INT to be 132 based on back calculation and assumption of 12 MDB.)

What is a known estimate of "resist rate" on Suzaku for a 330/120 build anyway, taking into account that levels of resist follow a multinomial distribution (four levels)? Are you sure tier 1/tier 2 spells aren't more (or less) accurate than higher-tier spells? Why even cast ice spells on Suzaku anyway? 10 elemental skill from an ice staff isn't going to overcome Suzaku's lack of susceptibility to anything other than water (as a practical matter of going out and dealing damage "efficiently" as a mage).

Sure, these questions and comments may be obnoxious, but stated or implicit assumptions and conditions should also be considered before making numerical estimates about the effect of Klimaform that theoretically can be verified under less onerous conditions.

Edited, Jun 18th 2009 5:48pm by Glamrawkus
#34 Jun 19 2009 at 6:04 AM Rating: Default
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Glamrawkus wrote:
Are you sure tier 1/tier 2 spells aren't more (or less) accurate than higher-tier spells? Why even cast ice spells on Suzaku anyway? 10 elemental skill from an ice staff isn't going to overcome Suzaku's lack of susceptibility to anything other than water (as a practical matter of going out and dealing damage "efficiently" as a mage).


Hasn't it been proven a few times that higher tiered spells aren't any more or less accurate than the previous tiers?

Ice spells were cast for consistancy. If I'm casting the same element over and over again *especially an element that is more likely to be resisted vs the mob I'm fighting* then I'm more likely to get more consistant results. Everyone in the LS knew that I was there primarily to test klimaform. They didn't mind, cuz they know that once I find out information, I tweak myself to adapt best to the abilities I have. We killed suzaku with no troubles anyway.
#35 Jul 13 2009 at 6:00 AM Rating: Good
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Zagen wrote:
svlyons wrote:
Zagen wrote:
That sight actually calculates Helix damage lower than it really is.

I noticed that this afternoon after my last post. It looks like it has the base damage for Helices as 25, not 46.

Has to be lower since I use 25 as the base in my calculations and they are within 1-3 damage from what I do in game. I'm not sure how the number 46 was derived honestly since it makes the damage a lot higher than it actually is.


That site counts ebullience as MAB, which it isn't.

I found that out the hard way trying to nuke worms in Eron for 1337 DMG.... none of it came out right with ebullience.

Edited, Jul 13th 2009 10:00am by AlexKrycek
#36 Sep 01 2009 at 4:49 AM Rating: Decent
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I've given up on this since I'm kinda forced to bring RDM to dynamis all the time now, effectively putting SCH on the shelf forever :/. I did get some better gear and still going to pursue SCH gear in dynamis(all I need is the hat and body now), but I wont be using it for endgame situations.. my LS leader doesn't even care that I can fill a BLM slot if we lack BLMs(we have enough RDMs..)

SCH is a job people underestimate and quick to shove off because we lack haste and refresh. ;/
#37 Sep 01 2009 at 6:17 AM Rating: Decent
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Quote:
How can -needing- a WS to land make it less accurate?


Not what I said.

The point was that it's a characteristic of 1-hit WSs. They get noticeably more outright whiffs, naturally. The point that it happens when you really don't want it to happen is just a side note, like when you're trying to skillchain. Kinda looks bad to be one of the jobs that's most prone to whiffing a SC due to 1-hitter WS when your job is supposed to be the master of skillchains, isn't it?

Anyone who's worked on a WS point latent using a 1-hitter WS can most likely claim that he missed out on several points/chains due to whiffs.

Point is whether or not you get an accuracy boost on the first hit, you're still dealing with an accuracy ceiling.
#38 Sep 02 2009 at 2:09 PM Rating: Decent
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The Fynlar of Doom wrote:
Anyone who's worked on a WS point latent using a 1-hitter WS can most likely claim that he missed out on several points/chains due to whiffs.


Not trying to take away from the point you're trying to make, but when I am collecting points for latents, I usually go with a WS that meets one or more of the following criteria:

1: Best TP return. *basically highest number of hits*
2: Best for use in the skillchain. *if this is feasible*
3: Least amount of damage dealt to the mob. *damage dealt doesn't effect points, thus extending the life of a mob will decrease the time spent not fighting one, even if only by a small amount.*

Those are in order of importance for me. If it doesn't meet at least one of those criteria, I don't use it for the purpose of gaining points.

On topic: If your LS leader doesn't want you going SCH for the reason it seems, then prove yourself as a SCH. If he refuses to accept it, then IMO, it's time to find a new LS.
#39 Sep 02 2009 at 2:22 PM Rating: Good
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Zaleshea wrote:
my LS leader doesn't even care that I can fill a BLM slot if we lack BLMs(we have enough RDMs..)

SCH is a job people underestimate and quick to shove off because we lack haste and refresh. ;/


Your leader is just uninformed. So where mine.

It took a lot of time for my leaders to realize just how important was to have at least 1 SCH around for Dynamis/Einherjar. I had to go in there and "Show off" my abilities.

Graviga is the real Tide-turner tho. It takes a few casts of this for all the mages in your LS to love you. Except the RDM's; they tend to get jealous :3

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