Forum Settings
       
Reply To Thread

Scholar Merit 1 AdjustmentFollow

#1 May 26 2009 at 4:16 PM Rating: Sub-Default
Scholar
***
1,346 posts
Let me first preface this by saying I saw the power of scholar both as a subjob for my WHM, and as a main specialized tactical nuking/healing job long before the big 'buff' the job received last year. In fact, I was one of the earliest to 75 on scholar so I hope what I'm about to say isn't taken the wrong way as a spoiled scholar trying to even the playing fields yet again.

What I want to talk about is Grimoire Recast timer, the Merit 1 ability. Having played scholar for KS99 Tartaruga (Aspi), I immediately ran into various problems with charges. In terms of buffing the BLM pt with the storm spells, barspells, and also effectively nuking.

It got to a point where I gave up on trying to nuke along with the BLM and accepted more of a support buffing role. Multiplying their nuke damage with my storm spell, healing them and applying a Helix spell to counteract the NMs strong regen ability.

I feel somewhat frustrated by this and it does seem scholar's strategem limits hurts us either when we're called to buff then nuke in quick succession, or in situation where speed is essential. Thus I feel that the stratagem/grimoire recast timers should be improved.

Recast duration of Light/Dark Arts should be decreased by 4 s per upgrade instead of the current 2 s, giving a potential of 20s timer reduction. So that it will only take a 40second cooldown once a special arts is used.

I also would like to proposition (NOT) the addition of a 5th stratagem but rather to reflect the same timer reduction of grimoire into the stratagems at half strength, reducing recharge timer of a new stratagem from its current 60 seconds to 50 second (20/2), essentially allowing a fully merited Scholar to get 4 charges back 40 seconds sooner.

Please drop your comments. I would like to hear what everyone else things.

Edited, May 26th 2009 5:18pm by Dekusutaa
____________________________
[ffxisig]185131[/ffxisig]

Converse MP Calculations
#2 May 26 2009 at 6:48 PM Rating: Good
Guru
Avatar
*****
10,544 posts
Hopping between Arts is something I refuse to do outside of dire circumstances. Ultimately, this means if I'm in a BLM party, I need to figure out if dedicating myself to nuking with T4s will be more beneficial to the alliance than throwing out Storms, either single or AoE'd.

The tricky part is getting some to understand why I may not take on the full cycle. MP limitations are one aspect, but hate control is also a consideration. If I'm upping a BLM's nuke damage by 100+ with the storm and them in an Obi, I increase their chances of drawing hate and possibly compromising the group. Furthermore, even if I do Storm 5 BLMs, the odds of their combined free nuke bonuses outdoing my own individual nukes are unlikely unless I'm fighting something where resists may be an issue or they're focusing exclusively on MBs (in which case, I would be, too).

There are exceptions to this, like if I happen to have a BRD and/or COR to help my MP along, but those situations are far too rare since our BRDs usually wind up in melee parties and we have like 2 CORs that are usually on BLM, anyway.

If you're fishing for a general opinion on SCH merits, I think they're lackluster. The Grimoire Timers should also bring additional skill bonuses so people would actually consider meriting them. The Helix merits need to include an INT equivalent to the formula so we could actually consider using them on harder stuff. The only thing I'd change about Sublimation merits is maybe adding -3 seconds on the JA timer for each level. MV's timer is way too prohibitive for me to consider it along with Helix spells sucking on what I usually take SCH to. So, adding a -1:45 per level couldn't hurt here. It'd put it a bit more in tandem with a full duration Helix, but I could live with -1:30, too.

T2s get it worse. Double charges on the stratagems blow. Cut 'em to singles and I could live with them doing their MACC/-Enmity thing by level. And while I know some cream themselves over Stormsurge, I really wish it was +3 stat per level like we'd initially hoped with Voidstorm mirroring what we have now with other elements.

Sadly, people will kick and scream against this just because SCH is SCH. I'd love to see a lot of job merits get overhauled along with level-progressed abilities, though.
#3 May 27 2009 at 9:35 AM Rating: Decent
**
629 posts
still to this day, I see helix, MV, and stormsurge as being the only GOOD merits for SCH. Grimoire recast is rarely what causes me any issues with any event. The benefits of the T2 strats do not even remotely make up for the cost. Enlightenment is very lackluster. Sublimation merits are ok, but IMO do not even come close to the benefit of the helix/MV combo. I'm very undecided on whether or not to even spend the merit points to go 10/10 on tier 2 combo. Stormsurge is the only thing that's worth taking above level 1.

Seriha, I like all of your ideas. I agree completely. OP, If grimoire recast reduced the timer on stratagems as well, that would definitely make it worthwhile. The problem is this: All stratagems share 1 timer. Grimoire do not. Seperating those into 2 merits would cause problems.
#4 May 27 2009 at 10:49 AM Rating: Good
Avatar
**
957 posts
Quote:
Furthermore, even if I do Storm 5 BLMs, the odds of their combined free nuke bonuses outdoing my own individual nukes are unlikely


I don't agree with this. Storming 5 BLM's should not be weighted against your nukes, because doing one shouldn't prevent us from doing another.
A better comparison should be: Will storming 4 BLM's outweight the extra damage 2 (or 1) Stratagems could provide if applied on me? And the answer is yes, easily.

Personally, I think us paired with the BLM gives the most damage potential. It sucks losing Addendum: Black, but you don't always need it.
In plenty of events I don't even switch back to Addendum. Using my stratagems on helixes and using T3's is still a very respectable source of damage; while not being chained to any Art.

And on that note, since we're talking about merits. 5 Minute Enlightment can also be used instead of Addendum if you only need 1 nuke. And I have used it for this cause in plenty of situations; like getting ready for the MB after storming but only having 1 stratagem left.

____________________________
It is better wither to be silent, or to say things of more value than silence. Sooner throw a pearl at hazard than an idle or useless word; and do not say a little in many words, but a great deal in a few.
- Pythagoras
#5 May 27 2009 at 11:56 AM Rating: Excellent
****
7,451 posts
Dekusutaa wrote:
I feel somewhat frustrated by this and it does seem scholar's strategem limits hurts us either when we're called to buff then nuke in quick succession, or in situation where speed is essential. Thus I feel that the stratagem/grimoire recast timers should be improved.

Recast duration of Light/Dark Arts should be decreased by 4 s per upgrade instead of the current 2 s, giving a potential of 20s timer reduction. So that it will only take a 40second cooldown once a special arts is used.

I also would like to proposition (NOT) the addition of a 5th stratagem but rather to reflect the same timer reduction of grimoire into the stratagems at half strength, reducing recharge timer of a new stratagem from its current 60 seconds to 50 second (20/2), essentially allowing a fully merited Scholar to get 4 charges back 40 seconds sooner.

Please drop your comments. I would like to hear what everyone else things.


I think that limitations on both Arts recast and Strategem recast is about the only thing keeping Scholar from being completely broken as a job class.

It's the standard practice in FFXI, either do one thing well, or do more than one thing not as well.
____________________________
Before you ask a stupid crafting question, read this.
milich wrote:
Quote:
Everytime Arcturus sees this, he starts to die inside.......I know it D:
actually, i think every time Acturus is called Arcturus he dies inside.


Now THIS is PvP!

MNK ~ SMN ~ SCH
#6 May 27 2009 at 12:58 PM Rating: Good
Guru
Avatar
*****
10,544 posts
Quote:
I don't agree with this. Storming 5 BLM's should not be weighted against your nukes, because doing one shouldn't prevent us from doing another.


It boils down to MP for me. Doing the cycle every 3 minutes if in Black means ~198 MP and the pain in the ass of bloated timers that might cause me to miss a sudden MB attempt. That's a couple Parsimony'd nukes to me, where considering what I may get to nuke on SCH with my LS, can mean anywhere from 1500-2200 damage (Add another 750-1100 if I do a third). Could the BLMs go balls out and top that in their combined nukings? Sure, but that's where I mentioned hate as the caveat. I have no interest in MPKing them to satiate some epeen and there are times where they get the NM's attention without it. Regardless, we'd need to rest eventually, doubly so for them if we're sans BRD/RDM/COR in the party and Aspir isn't a viable option.

Sometimes I do just stick to plain ol' DA, but that's only if I can make a Helix work well. That's the time I'm likely to arts hop now and then. Really, my biggest problem is being something other than a healer. I don't mind it now and then, but it's certainly not why I leveled SCH.
#7 May 27 2009 at 3:55 PM Rating: Excellent
Scholar
**
287 posts
Dekusutaa wrote:
...I hope what I'm about to say isn't taken the wrong way as a spoiled scholar trying to even the playing fields yet again.


All in all, I'd say the playing field is even as it is, if not canted slightly in favor of SCH. More to follow.


Dekusutaa wrote:
What I want to talk about is Grimoire Recast timer, the Merit 1 ability. Having played scholar for KS99 Tartaruga (Aspi), I immediately ran into various problems with charges. In terms of buffing the BLM pt with the storm spells, barspells, and also effectively nuking.


You can't expect to be able to buff, debuff, heal, and nuke all at once. That's where you were facing your problem.

The price SCH pays for its excellent versatility is that by exploiting that versatility they give up some of the top-end power they can achieve by limiting themselves to one singular role. If you want to be able to freely switch Arts and perform both some healing and some damage, you're going to lose your ability to heal status ailments and cast the highest tier nukes. That's the whole "checks and balances" system applied here.

It wouldn't be terribly fair to WHMs and BLMs to give SCH faster strategems and faster Grimoire recast so that they can suddenly do everything almost without limit.


Dekusutaa wrote:
I feel somewhat frustrated by this and it does seem scholar's strategem limits hurts us either when we're called to buff then nuke in quick succession, or in situation where speed is essential. Thus I feel that the stratagem/grimoire recast timers should be improved.


Of course SCH is limited by its strategem charges. Without that limitation, SCHs would nearly have the full potential of a WHM and a BLM rolled into one job. That would be terribly unbalanced.

You shouldn't feel frustrated by this. If your group is calling you to heal and buff and nuke and debuff all at once, you need to tell them that they are asking too much. You have to work within the limitations of your available strategems, and it is your job as a SCH to use your knowledge to use those charges at their tactical best.
===============================

SE, please don't change SCH. It's fine the way it is (at least for now). People only need to understand how to use their strategems more efficiently and to accept some limitations that come with the job, as every other job must also do. SCH don't need faster Grimoire recast, and they certainly don't need additional strategems and faster strategem recharge.

Do some work with the other mage jobs that have been without significant updates for years, and then work on tweaking SCH if need be.
____________________________
Name: Kaetara Sagitta Race: Seeker of the Sun Miqo'te Nation: Limsa Lominsa
DoW/M: 50THM 50SEN 48CON 27ARC
DoL: 13BOT
DoH: 15WVR 12TAN


Besaid Server
#8 May 27 2009 at 8:23 PM Rating: Good
*
109 posts
Very well put Kaetara. ^^

Though I will say this! SE needs to add sch to one of the mage sets in Salvage. As well as dnc. Its silly that sch and dnc cant use the gear there.
____________________________
Bst75, Sch75, Brd75, War75, Rdm75, Sam 75
#9 May 27 2009 at 8:27 PM Rating: Decent
Scholar
*
166 posts
Just tell people what I tell my ls, "Uh, I can't cure or raise in dark arts." And then refuse to switch arts lol.
#10 May 27 2009 at 10:32 PM Rating: Excellent
Avatar
**
957 posts
Quote:
It boils down to MP for me. Doing the cycle every 3 minutes if in Black means ~198 MP and the pain in the ass of bloated timers that might cause me to miss a sudden MB attempt.


Well, no wonder why you're having troubles: Don't cast single targets in Black arts, just AoE them.

Just to show you the math, in your situation of having 5BLM's+SCH. Doing them individually in Dark Arts costs 216MP (6 storms) and a sh*tton of time.
Doing them with Accession costs 60MP. That's 156MP extra MP on an once per 3 minute action costing you at most 2 stratagems.
To put into perspective, the most MP you could save off two stratagems are two Parsimony'd Thunder IV's; which only save you 137MP.

Also, the argument about hate is ridiculous. By that logic DD's shouldn't get songs or haste either. Sounds like a lousy excuse more than anything.



Edited, May 28th 2009 1:34am by Drakonite
____________________________
It is better wither to be silent, or to say things of more value than silence. Sooner throw a pearl at hazard than an idle or useless word; and do not say a little in many words, but a great deal in a few.
- Pythagoras
#11 May 28 2009 at 2:34 AM Rating: Good
*
109 posts
Drakonite wrote:
Sounds like a lousy excuse more than anything.


He sounds like a person who doesnt like to swap arts. I'm that way quite often too. But.. I will NEVER give weather to any blm that doesnt have obi's. Its not worth the mp or the time to do it. And this is not an excuse for lazyness either. Assuming everyone understands how weather dynamics work than i really dont need to explain myself.

With that said. rofl. i would never do a 5 weather rotation, and thats not including yourself either!. Thats so incredibly silly. We have aga's for a reason.
To not swap arts for a couple secs and use up 1-2 gems is a waste of your mp, time and efficiency.


As for OP, sch is fine the way it is. As nice as it would be to have more gems, shorter recast, seperate gems for each Art. I realize that anymore and things would be truly unfair to other jobs. Mp wise i already last a hell of a lot longer than whm or blm for their respective rolls. This meaning i can do more dmg or more healing over a longer duration of time. If we had more gems or shorter recasts it would give me more freedom to use 2 gems per cast making my nukes on par or better than blm and for 50% cost.

Sch isnt meant to replace any jobs or be better at what those specific jobs do best. Hence why i said its fine the way it is. I cant speak for all sch's, but i already pull ahead of most whm's and blm's in their respective jobs. I couldnt imagine getting anything to make sch any better.
____________________________
Bst75, Sch75, Brd75, War75, Rdm75, Sam 75
#12 May 28 2009 at 4:18 AM Rating: Decent
Scholar
**
353 posts
On a random note, what about Klimaform? do you guys AoE that onto the others, or do you find it to not be worth the effort? In my experience it's been pretty sweet for upping my nuking damage, but I haven't experienced endgame with SCH yet. (Also I like to use Alacrity with Klimaform to cut its recast, so that's another stratagem, though again I don't know if that applies to endgame.)
#14 May 28 2009 at 6:27 AM Rating: Good
Avatar
**
957 posts
Klimaform is pretty much self-use only. And yes, Alacrity+Klimaform is the way to go when you need consistent nukes.

The only times I Klimaform-ga are when say; the BLM's are getting ready for a timed -Ga III.

____________________________
It is better wither to be silent, or to say things of more value than silence. Sooner throw a pearl at hazard than an idle or useless word; and do not say a little in many words, but a great deal in a few.
- Pythagoras
#15 May 28 2009 at 2:16 PM Rating: Good
Guru
Avatar
*****
10,544 posts
Quote:
Also, the argument about hate is ridiculous. By that logic DD's shouldn't get songs or haste either. Sounds like a lousy excuse more than anything.


Physical DDs shouldn't be stupid about hate, either. However, if they're getting it, odds are they're by the mob (RNG excluded), not causing a risky reposition that could prompt a flail-like maneuver or conal attack to your mage line, and are more dispersed in enmity decay when comparing DoT to Spike (with hate shed from AoE ranged mages may not be privy to). This doesn't even touch on the DD possibly having TA to up their own personal survivability (Though this does help the nukers if it's consistent enough).

The times I'm nuking on SCH usually involve the Sandworm HNMs. Even if I've been a bit on the conservative side, I've drawn hate on Guivre, Serket, KA, and Lambton alike. While you could consider the first two exceptions to hate mechanics with how they fight or their move list, it's still something that could leave someone dead or cause undue strain on the rest of the alliance. I know some like to construe that killing things faster is killing things safer, but that's not a guarantee.

Edited, May 28th 2009 6:18pm by Seriha
#16 May 29 2009 at 11:32 AM Rating: Good
**
629 posts
I've found myself enjoying being partied with 3-4 BLMs, 1 other SCH, and 0-1 CORs honestly. Some people might think I'm crazy, but if you think about it, you're casting, at most, 3 storm spells per SCH. In many situations, BLMs like to have thunderstorm rather than hailstorm, so timers aren't much of an issue, and AOEing wouldn't save much anyway. If there's a COR, then 1 less to worry about. But here's the REAL benefit: 2 SCHs w/ manifestation and alacrity can keep klimaform up constantly.

Klimaform offers SO MUCH for end-game situations. A good BLM becomes irresistable *lolz couldn't help it*. A bad BLM becomes good. A SCH jumps on par w/ some of the best BLMs. CORs <3 klimaform w/ their respective elemental shot.

I've actually had a COR hold all his shots for when klimaform is up on him. It's pretty amazing how little the COR will get resisted.

With a 2 SCH BLM PT, there's no need to switch arts really. You can stay in dark and not spend a massive chunk on storms but keep everyone up. Then just save those 2 charges for klimaform and you're gold.

In situations that aren't end-game, unless it's a timed situation where I'll probably have to put arts up at the beginning of the timed w/e, I usually only storm BLMs if they specifically ask for it. Too many I've come across w/o obis... nuff said?
#17 May 29 2009 at 11:11 PM Rating: Good
*
109 posts
Banggugyangu wrote:
Too many I've come across w/o obis... nuff said?


Rofl! Gawd if i have to explain to one more "blm" about how weather effects work.. You would think that they knew this already...
____________________________
Bst75, Sch75, Brd75, War75, Rdm75, Sam 75
#18 May 31 2009 at 9:36 PM Rating: Decent
Scholar
***
1,346 posts
Acturus wrote:


I think that limitations on both Arts recast and Strategem recast is about the only thing keeping Scholar from being completely broken as a job class.

It's the standard practice in FFXI, either do one thing well, or do more than one thing not as well.


Nothing changes with my suggestion insofar as it doesn't allow a Scholar to do the Light magic side and Dark Magic side at no cost or concurrently, it only lessens the burden of switching between both arts a bit.

I'm not suggesting for the removal of the limitation as I clearly outlined not wanting a 5th charge, as having that would probably be a huge boost, but to 1st, boost the merit category which always seemed out of place/too weak to me (-2s timer reduction affecting only grimoire but not stratagem recast) and making a scholar slightly better/more efficient at switching between both arts.


I venture to guess that even with 50 second stratagem recharge timers and 40 second Arts recast, it would be fairly easy to hit up against those timers in the same Tartaruga fight which first revealed this frustration to me but those timers would sure make it easier to time and strategize a nuke phase and buff phase rather than trading off an aoe storm spell for an enhanced nuke or tier3>tier4 nuke or vice versa.


Edited, May 31st 2009 10:48pm by Dekusutaa
____________________________
[ffxisig]185131[/ffxisig]

Converse MP Calculations
Reply To Thread

Colors Smileys Quote OriginalQuote Checked Help

 

Recent Visitors: 7 All times are in CDT
Anonymous Guests (7)