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Ability: Max SublimationFollow

#1 May 24 2009 at 11:53 AM Rating: Decent
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How does Max Sublimation work?

Do you get 10-50 MP as a bonus after a normal charge even if it's noT finished?
Or is it possible to store 10-50 more mp (more then 75% of your HP) which will make it take longer to charge to complete?

I'm sorry but I just don't get it.
#2 May 24 2009 at 12:35 PM Rating: Excellent
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Basicly from my understanding, is you'll gain 10 more MP, for 10 more HP, over the cap.

So say you normally get 250 MP, for 250 HP. With 5/5, you'd get 300 MP, for 300 HP. This will go over the normal cap you'll have.
#3 May 24 2009 at 3:53 PM Rating: Good
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Klownzor is right. Its not a bonus per say.. Just an extension of what you already have. You still have to store those 10-50 extra.

Some would argue that its not a good merit, but less time spending using sublimation the better. as well, when your at full mp and fully stored sublimation, that's an extra 50mp on your total amount.
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#4Requim, Posted: May 24 2009 at 4:34 PM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) IMO, depends on if you have both AF sublimation pieces.
#5 May 24 2009 at 6:13 PM Rating: Decent
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while my sch doesn't have to worry about merits yet, but an extra 50 MP is nice if you are using Sublimation enough.

#6 May 24 2009 at 7:37 PM Rating: Excellent
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Sublimation only matches refresh with 1 piece while it is active, but you'll lose out in the 30 second reuse time. At larger events, you'll typically have a refresh, so it isn't even needed after the first use. It's definitely low on priority.


I would like to point out that a SCH should never ever depend on Refresh after level 60.
Sublimation is virtually free. Refresh costs the RDM 40 mp. Having your RDM lose 40MP every cycle isn't worth you gaining 10~ MP.

Don't ask for refresh; specially at larger events where that MP could be better spent elsewhere.
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#7 May 24 2009 at 7:39 PM Rating: Excellent
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Quote:

I would like to point out that a SCH should never ever depend on Refresh after level 60.
Sublimation is virtually free. Refresh costs the RDM 40 mp. Having your RDM lose 40MP every cycle isn't worth you gaining 10~ MP.

Don't ask for refresh; specially at larger events where that MP could be better spent elsewhere.


This is why I get into parties with bards and cors, it's more interesting that way!
#8 May 24 2009 at 10:30 PM Rating: Excellent
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Requim wrote:
IMO, depends on if you have both AF sublimation pieces.

Sublimation only matches refresh with 1 piece while it is active, but you'll lose out in the 30 second reuse time. At larger events, you'll typically have a refresh, so it isn't even needed after the first use. It's definitely low on priority.

If you do have both AF pieces I would imagine you would be using sublimation significantly more often, so it could easily justify the merits.


I'm sorry.. But I need to completely disagree with your logic here.

Before af head, I can understand taking a refresh for the sake of a higher mp tick. But like it was said, post 60, their are very few times you should ever need to receive it. Their is NO such thing as perfect scenario, so with that said, its highly unlikely that a rdm would be able to keep a perfect refresh cycle with out a gap in between refreshing you. So that 30sec wait is really somewhat irrelevant.

The only times to justifiably take a refresh is because your hp is too low to use sublimation, or you dont have enough mp to SS + sublimation(start) than rest. Otherwise your just wasting a rdm's time and mp when it could be better used elsewhere.

My sublimation max 5/5 gives me a 300~ mp storing ability. So that means rdm would have to cast refresh twice on me just to match that. 80mp... or an ability I can do on my own. Again I'll say it, waste of time and mp. If your rdm's are doing this in your ls it's likely because your sch's suck horrendously.

I will agree though that having both af head and afv2 body help quite a bit. Before you say it though, or someone else does, you would realistically need to keep 1 or both pieces on full time to have it match or beat refresh. Like it was mentioned though, the idea is that Sch is self-sufficient and should be making things easier, not the same old same old that comes with other jobs.


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#9 May 25 2009 at 7:14 AM Rating: Good
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The only times to justifiably take a refresh is because your hp is too low to use sublimation, or you dont have enough mp to SS + sublimation(start) than rest. Otherwise your just wasting a rdm's time and mp when it could be better used elsewhere.


This is pretty much it. Unless you have overkill on whatever you are fighting, your rdm will probably have a lot of other things he could be doing instead of refreshing you.
#10 May 27 2009 at 9:54 AM Rating: Decent
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sublimation merits can be simulated by adding HP gear. They do increase sublimation's efficiency by a decent amount. I view them as wasted merit points, however, because when compared to the potency increase that both helix and MV merits add to our already most efficient spells for many situations, sublimation merits seem to be very overshadowed.

On the note of taking refresh post-60. I only ask for refresh under 1 of 3 circumstances:

1: I am weakened and have the duty of raising a large group of people with or without help.

2: My MP is too low to cast stoneskin.

3: I'm in a time-restricted situation where my MP is far more important than the RDM's MP.

Even when PT'd w/ a BRD and/or COR on end-game situations, I have personally found that making the most of the MP I have is more beneficial most of the time than having a plethora of MP. 4MP/tick sublimation is usually more than enough for whatever I'm doing. I would much rather have macc/mab from a COR and INT from a BRD than another 5-6 MP/tick. Doing so really boosts my damage output by a large amount which in turn reduces my need for repeated casts. All in all, it ends up being about the same MP-wise, but generally, fights go quicker and I have more fun.
#11 May 27 2009 at 8:18 PM Rating: Good
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@Banggugyangu

Pretty much dead on about the only reasons to want refresh. Though, i still dont see refresh > sublimation in those time-restricted scenarios. mp tick, or stored mp is the same thing. But i guess if your trying to look at is it as less effort or less things to worry about than ya sure.

As for those group 1 merits. I wont be the person to say what you "should" merit. When making my decisions it was pretty easy to do. I dont like swapping arts if i can avoid it. So Arts Recast was a waste for me. I contemplated Modus Veritas at one point, but an ability that i can use only 10mins of the time seemed very wasteful, especially when i dont use helix on a regular basis.

As for Helix magic Acc./Att., well that should be a given, and sublimation seemed to be what i would get the most out of because i use it constantly.

Like i said though, my way is not neccesarily the best way. but seemed like the best route to take advantage of both light and dark arts.
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#12 May 28 2009 at 8:11 AM Rating: Excellent
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Personally, I think the Sublimation merits are just so players can see big numbers when they use Sublimation. It's useful on your intial charge, but the appeal of having another 50 mp returned is devalued when you consider you still had to charge it up like normal. For this reason, while I can understand players finding it useful, I've avoided meriting it myself. I prefer to place my merits somewhere they'll be more of a benefit to my playing style.

The no-brainer choice for me was 5/5 Helix merits and 5/5 Modus Veritas. This is mostly because I love maximising the damage my helix spells can do. I have to admit I've not actually bothered with tier 2 merits beyond Stormsurge (which I think is a must for any Scholar). The thought of using up 2 charges for a minimal bonus seem wasteful and would have limited applications.
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#13 May 28 2009 at 1:27 PM Rating: Good
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Personally, the largest benefit I see from the sublimation merits is that they still apply while weakened. It allows me to continue to function autonomously while weakened (though cautiously). Prior to meriting max sublimation, it seemed all but pointless to uses sublimation while weakened as it seemed to max out just seconds after using it. The merits more or less double the total pool.

Edited, May 28th 2009 4:28pm by hellbringerx
#14 May 29 2009 at 4:53 AM Rating: Decent
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Personally, the largest benefit I see from the sublimation merits is that they still apply while weakened. It allows me to continue to function autonomously while weakened (though cautiously). Prior to meriting max sublimation, it seemed all but pointless to uses sublimation while weakened as it seemed to max out just seconds after using it. The merits more or less double the total pool.
The same basic rules apply, however. Sublimation will still stop charging if you drop below 50% hitpoints. If you have particularly low hitpoints, such as when weakened, you need to bear that in mind before weighing up the benefits.
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#15 May 29 2009 at 7:32 AM Rating: Decent
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Sir Crystan wrote:
Quote:
Personally, the largest benefit I see from the sublimation merits is that they still apply while weakened. It allows me to continue to function autonomously while weakened (though cautiously). Prior to meriting max sublimation, it seemed all but pointless to uses sublimation while weakened as it seemed to max out just seconds after using it. The merits more or less double the total pool.
The same basic rules apply, however. Sublimation will still stop charging if you drop below 50% hitpoints. If you have particularly low hitpoints, such as when weakened, you need to bear that in mind before weighing up the benefits.


I'm not really sure what you're getting at here. I wouldn't even consider doing anything before being at full hp and having a minimum of RR2 and SS up. Hitpoints dropping below 50% is basicly a non-issue unless you get hate from something. If you do that, however, ending you sublimation prematurely is the least of your worries ;)
#16 May 29 2009 at 10:09 AM Rating: Decent
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Personally, I think the Sublimation merits are just so players can see big numbers when they use Sublimation. It's useful on your intial charge, but the appeal of having another 50 mp returned is devalued when you consider you still had to charge it up like normal. For this reason, while I can understand players finding it useful, I've avoided meriting it myself. I prefer to place my merits somewhere they'll be more of a benefit to my playing style.

The no-brainer choice for me was 5/5 Helix merits and 5/5 Modus Veritas.


This.

Also, I think something many people overlook is that you don't HAVE to wait for Sublimation to fully charge before using it. Sure, you'll do that prior to a big fight/event, but when you're constantly using it over the course of an EXP party or something, there is no need to wait for a full charge every time.
#17 May 29 2009 at 10:24 AM Rating: Excellent
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I'm sorry if it's been said, I didn't see it as I scanned through the Refresh argument.

Scholars who participate in Salvage get an added benefit for meriting Max Sublimation. If, while under the effect of HP Pathos, you still have 100% HP, your Sublimation will tic off for up to the full amount you have meritted.

In situations where you can cast Stoneskin and have Job Abilities, but don't have HP, you'll still get MP from your Max Sublimation merits. I know my group would sometimes give SCH Magic and Abilities from the starter chest, and having those merits would help, even if it was a small amount.
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#18 May 29 2009 at 10:42 AM Rating: Decent
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Scholars who participate in Salvage get an added benefit for meriting Max Sublimation. If, while under the effect of HP Pathos, you still have 100% HP, your Sublimation will tic off for up to the full amount you have meritted.

In situations where you can cast Stoneskin and have Job Abilities, but don't have HP, you'll still get MP from your Max Sublimation merits. I know my group would sometimes give SCH Magic and Abilities from the starter chest, and having those merits would help, even if it was a small amount.


I dunno if SCH is different or what, but when I try to use Sublimation in Salvage as WHM/SCH when my HP is still reduced, it doesn't work at all, even if I'm at 100% HP with Stoneskin up. The charge immediately stops, and when I use Sublimation again I only get 2 MP back.
#19 May 29 2009 at 11:18 AM Rating: Good
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ElVendi wrote:
I contemplated Modus Veritas at one point, but an ability that i can use only 10mins of the time seemed very wasteful, especially when i dont use helix on a regular basis.


If you're not using helices on a regular basis, you're missing out on a large amount of damage for very little MP. The fact that MV merits actually increase that damage even more for no cost whatsoever is what gives them priority for me. I don't exactly enjoy spending time on something that won't increase my potential.

An example of sublimation for my character.

With a full store on sublimation I get 248 MP back. I have relic body so this takes 186 seconds or 3 minutes 6 seconds to charge. Add 30 seconds to this for a total of 248 MP every 3 minutes 36 seconds. ~1.148 MP per second or ~68.889 MP/minute.

With capped sublimation merits, I would receive 298 MP. This would take 223 seconds or 3 minutes 43 seconds to charge. Add 30 seconds onto this for a total of 298 MP every 4 minutes 13 seconds. ~1.779 MP per second or ~70.672 MP/minute.

This is a very minor benefit from a lot of merit points.
#20 May 29 2009 at 11:27 AM Rating: Good
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Fynlar wrote:
I dunno if SCH is different or what, but when I try to use Sublimation in Salvage as WHM/SCH when my HP is still reduced, it doesn't work at all, even if I'm at 100% HP with Stoneskin up. The charge immediately stops, and when I use Sublimation again I only get 2 MP back.


I can get sublimation ticking as a WHM/SCH with no HP merits with just SS + full HP.

I do know that some items may ***** this up (I haven't really tested which). There is a certain combination of items that will somehow make my subli not tick even at capped HP. I think it was intensifying + walhara or something. I really don't know why it works at certain HP's and it wont at others, I'm guessing it just has to do with rounding values.

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#21 May 29 2009 at 11:48 AM Rating: Decent
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I contemplated Modus Veritas at one point, but an ability that i can use only 10mins of the time seemed very wasteful, especially when i dont use helix on a regular basis.


You don't really merit Modus Veritas because it's incredibly wtfomg useful (although as stated, for an extended fight against something where helices actually land well, it can essentially act as a free near hate-less nuke if you fully merit this), you merit it because your other options are generally worse. >_>
#22 May 29 2009 at 11:55 AM Rating: Default
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Fynlar wrote:
You don't really merit Modus Veritas because it's incredibly wtfomg useful (although as stated, for an extended fight against something where helices actually land well, it can essentially act as a free near hate-less nuke if you fully merit this), you merit it because your other options are generally worse. >_>


I personally consider any ability that can turn a ~2000 damage attack into ~3000 damage to be pretty "wtfomg useful" even if it can be used only once every 10 minutes.
#23 May 29 2009 at 12:03 PM Rating: Decent
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I personally consider any ability that can turn a ~2000 damage attack into ~3000 damage to be pretty "wtfomg useful" even if it can be used only once every 10 minutes.


Those numbers are a bit inflated for most cases/SCHs, but sure.
#24 May 29 2009 at 12:09 PM Rating: Default
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Fynlar wrote:
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I personally consider any ability that can turn a ~2000 damage attack into ~3000 damage to be pretty "wtfomg useful" even if it can be used only once every 10 minutes.


Those numbers are a bit inflated for most cases/SCHs, but sure.


I can honestly say that for the mobs I regularly helix, I see consistant numbers of 175-225 with full durations. That equates to 1750-2250. Fair average would be 200/2000. Just because not everyone can put out numbers like that means that I shouldn't use myself as an example of myself?
#25 May 29 2009 at 12:36 PM Rating: Decent
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I can honestly say that for the mobs I regularly helix, I see consistant numbers of 175-225 with full durations. That equates to 1750-2250. Fair average would be 200/2000. Just because not everyone can put out numbers like that means that I shouldn't use myself as an example of myself?


I don't think helices last for 9-10 ticks even without Modus >_>

Edited, May 29th 2009 4:37pm by Fynlar
#26 May 29 2009 at 1:16 PM Rating: Default
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Fully unresisted helix is initial damage + 9 ticks. That's info that was discovered almost immediately after they patched the original that was random anywhere from 2-13 ticks.
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