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#27 Jun 22 2009 at 6:13 AM Rating: Decent
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Drakonite wrote:

You do realize you're essentially making the RDM spend 40MP so you so you can get the equivalent of a 1HP/Tick regen, yes?


Wrong.
You're losing 4HP per tic with sublimation with AF hat and relic body. You're gaining 1HP per tic with ixion cloak and refresh. The net effect is that you're gaining 5HP per tic.

Now, if you take into account that in the duration of refresh (2:30, or 190 seconds) you'd have to cast regen, which lasts 75 seconds, (190/75 = 2.5) 2.5 times, you're spending (15*2.5 = 38) 38 MP. So overall you're losing 2 MP from having refresh and ixion instead of sublimation and AF hat/relic body. If you take into account that you can rest without casting stoneskin if you use the refresh/cloak option there's a pretty clear winner on the MP front.

Edit: However, you'd probably have stoneskin up in most situations anyway, so you can't really factor that in (you'd be AOEing it if you're main healing and keeping it up for safety in solo). However, you're still only 2MP down from using refresh AND you have to factor in how sublimation will stop if you drop below 50% HP.

tl;dr no clear winner.

Edited, Jun 22nd 2009 10:22am by Innuendoze
#28 Jun 22 2009 at 7:01 AM Rating: Good
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Innuendoze wrote:
Drakonite wrote:

You do realize you're essentially making the RDM spend 40MP so you so you can get the equivalent of a 1HP/Tick regen, yes?


Wrong.
You're losing 4HP per tic with sublimation with AF hat and relic body. You're gaining 1HP per tic with ixion cloak and refresh. The net effect is that you're gaining 5HP per tic.

Now, if you take into account that in the duration of refresh (2:30, or 190 seconds) you'd have to cast regen, which lasts 75 seconds, (190/75 = 2.5) 2.5 times, you're spending (15*2.5 = 38) 38 MP. So overall you're losing 2 MP from having refresh and ixion instead of sublimation and AF hat/relic body. If you take into account that you can rest without casting stoneskin if you use the refresh/cloak option there's a pretty clear winner on the MP front.

Edit: However, you'd probably have stoneskin up in most situations anyway, so you can't really factor that in (you'd be AOEing it if you're main healing and keeping it up for safety in solo). However, you're still only 2MP down from using refresh AND you have to factor in how sublimation will stop if you drop below 50% HP.

tl;dr no clear winner.


If you can't factor in Stoneskin, why are you factoring in Regen?
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#29 Jun 22 2009 at 8:53 AM Rating: Decent
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Acturus wrote:

If you can't factor in Stoneskin, why are you factoring in Regen?


Because you'd only have to cast regen for the sublimation option, whereas you'd probably have stoneskin up in all situations.

Edited, Jun 22nd 2009 12:53pm by Innuendoze
#30 Jun 22 2009 at 10:18 AM Rating: Decent
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Stoneskin isn't factored because if SCH is healing and stoneskining the tank party, then they'll have stoneskin up full time whether they want to or not. And if they're getting their nuke on, they need stoneskin up every bit as much as the blms do. Now, their sublimation means their stoneskin will break more often when they get hit by AoEs. But, it's complicated to try to quantify that, so just forget about it.

Obviously what you use is situational. But I do wonder what all of you scholars do. I know what good scholars do in good shells. They're main healing / stoneskinga for the tank party. Or they're nuking and weathering the blms. In either case, sch gear selection is **** poor. Not being a sch myself, but being a whm and blm...there's no way you don't buff and heal in your Ixion Cloak if you have it, its going to add like 40 HP to your stoneskin over gown + mortarboard. Nuking? Ixion still probably best, AF2 gown + AF1 mortarboard = gross. At least you have some int on there. Even using fastcast charges on your nukes, each nuke is going to lose you 1-2 ticks. AoE stoneskin will lose you 5 ticks. Healing too, only cure V, and plus, who gives a smeg. Now if you're nuking though, the rdm is probably overworked from casting 5 refreshes, so yeah, leave him be, so who cares if you save a couple MP, have mercy on him. Gerkin doesn't get to nuke on SCH though, because he can just bring his blm if we don't need a sch in the tank party...

It doesn't take more than casting a few spells per refresh cycle to kill any alleged advantage. One AoE buff, that's 5 extra MP sacrificed on the sublimation altar. It adds up. Whether you're nuking or your healing and buffing, you should be doing gear swaps, and those will hurt your ticks.

Also, don't forget that every second you forget to eat your MP tank, and every second you forget to turn sublimation back on, you're hemorrhaging 4 MP a tick. (3 if you're macros swap your body piece to a refresh piece) You really riding those timers to the microsecond? And yet still managing to pay attention to healing and status cures and AoE buff rotations? That's highly impressive, are you some sort of robot? If so what other powers do you have? And do you use them for good, or for awesome? Threatening bloody vengeance on Allakhazam of all places, because somebody doesn't play like you, that counts as neither good nor awesome, I'm sorry to inform you.

Having the rdm refresh you costs him at most 40 MP, a fair ways less than 40 on average thanks to conserve MP. Meanwhile, it saves you easily 40 MP unless you're swapping in Cloak between sublimation, AND you have robotic concentration and never miss a second between eating your MP charge the instant its full, or between restarting sublimation once you can. And yes, transferring X MP from the rdm, in exchange for > X MP on the sch, is a fair trade. What would the rdm do with it? Cure? The SCH can cover cures just one time per cycle, just one cure III the rdm doesn't cast and the rdm comes out ahead on MP, as does the sch, and everybody wins. He can even make that one cure happen while the rdm is casting refresh, then there, you're other hilariously stupid problem is solved (tanks die every time your failmage tries to cast refresh somebody). Even if it was a straight conversion of 40 mp for 40 MP...here's a PSA "I'm a redmage, I can use convert, you can't, so play safe".

He's not saying you're bad for using sublimation, he's saying they're probably equal, and he has a personal preference. You're saying any deviation from the bandwagon should be punished by lynching, and you're swearing bloody vengeance on him, howling at the moon with blood curdling fury. How dare he take a refresh and gain some MP, when he can gain almost as much by using a JA, he just has to use a bot to make sure he doesn't waste any sublimation ticks! How DARE he. Like he's dragging your job into the mud, when in fact, he's an endgame scholar, he convinces endgame shells to use it for endgame activities, and it holds its own. That must anger you, to think that some shells don't think sch is the ********* job in the game, how badly he has harmed you. I can see why you're so outraged and frothing at the mouth. We take scholars to Odin and other serious fights. The SCH and WHMs are always running on empty, I have to SV Ballad them near the end to keep them curing and suchlike. The rdms have to convert near the end, but by the end of the fight they're still sitting on half of their newly converted MP pool. To suggest that those 40 MP to keep the scholars focused on their JOBS is going to break their MP balance is beyond laughable. To suggest that the tanks would die because the backup healer is casting one extra refresh is even worse.
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#31 Jun 22 2009 at 11:12 AM Rating: Good
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Innuendoze wrote:
Acturus wrote:

If you can't factor in Stoneskin, why are you factoring in Regen?


Because you'd only have to cast regen for the sublimation option, whereas you'd probably have stoneskin up in all situations.


We're ignoring Stoneskin because it negates the HP loss associated with Sublimation.

If Stoneskin is "up all the time," why exactly does a SCH need to cast Regen on himself?
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#32 Jun 22 2009 at 11:14 AM Rating: Good
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Rofl..

Love how topics always stray away from the OP topic.

For Dark ixion's cloak, I completely agree it does have its uses and can help get you out of a pinch or keep mp topped off while traveling. Is it game breaking, not even close. But it does add to your efficiency.

As for the argument between Naobi and Banggu about traveling to Ulli. (i realize its a burried topic now and gerkin's ignorant comments deserve much more attention >.>) I'm personally along the same lines as Naobi. Theirs no reason to cast more magic than needed when surrounded by magic agro mobs. I know you said that..
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If you can't maneuver sky without agroing via casting *while still casting the same spells you would anywhere else*, then please practice until you can.

Would the same point be true that if you know what your doing the need for SS is moot?

anyways. On to gerkin...

Assuming your main healing and you have that rdm in your pt. s/he is likely doing full haste and refresh rotations, right? At least by your description of a good rdm, on top of that he should be doing ALL the enfeebs, as well as back up healing. So all the sch is doing is healing? Where as the rdm is allegedly doing quadruple the work? If this rdm is doing SOOoooo much work, why would you seriously want to impose more work on them? Especially considering that your doing jack sh*t.

This is the point everyone is making. To pull more from the rdm is taking away their attention to other things they could be doing.. OR!! actually evening out the amount of effort your both doing.

Do find it funny how much you glorify Rdm. Yes, i have a respect for the job and give it props where its due. But you seem to believe that it pulls so vastly ahead of sch, if at all. Besides DoT kiting and higher enfeeb skill, it really has no advantage.


Their is a time to receive refresh, but those instances are very far inbetween.

Ex. Yesterday we did Early Bird, once the Wyrm takes flight keeping HP high enough to keep sublimation up can be troublesome. So once he takes flight i request refresh until it comes down. At that point its back to sublimation.

You can play anyway you want to play. But dont go preaching "Bandwagon" this and "Bandwagon" that, when its got nothing to do with bandwagons, but rather self efficiency and relieving stress of others.
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#33 Jun 22 2009 at 12:26 PM Rating: Good
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Quote:
Obviously what you use is situational. But I do wonder what all of you scholars do. I know what good scholars do in good shells. They're main healing / stoneskinga for the tank party. Or they're nuking and weathering the blms. In either case, sch gear selection is **** poor. Not being a sch myself, but being a whm and blm...there's no way you don't buff and heal in your Ixion Cloak if you have it, its going to add like 40 HP to your stoneskin over gown + mortarboard. Nuking? Ixion still probably best, AF2 gown + AF1 mortarboard = gross. At least you have some int on there. Even using fastcast charges on your nukes, each nuke is going to lose you 1-2 ticks. AoE stoneskin will lose you 5 ticks.

Ixion Cloak can be replaced with Errant body and Errant hat for the purpose of stoneskin.

Also, if you're nuking, you should be in AF body because it gives you +15 Elemental skill while under the effects of Dark Arts.

Scholar can also do more than what you give them credit for.

Edit: lolol I said skillchains instead of stoneskin. D:

Edited, Jun 22nd 2009 3:42pm by Tyjet
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#34 Jun 22 2009 at 1:03 PM Rating: Excellent
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StubbyStumps wrote:
So I'm looking ahead to the future, and I wonder about DI's Cloak, it seems to me like it could have some potential in stats, but it could just as easily be a more expensive Vermy with regen on it. So is the cloak just a more expensive enhanced vermy useful when you're idling and not expecting to be hit, or does it have applications for nuking and/or enfeebling?


I figure I'll put in my opinion on Ixion Cloak.

It gives +13 INT/MND, Refresh, Regen, and MACC +5. These are the only stats I find useful for SCH. Its a nice well rounded body piece and that's where it ends for me.

Ok I want some INT? Errant Body + Scholar's M.board = 14 INT
So if I'm after decent INT amount Ixion loses.

Ok I want some MND? Errant Body + Goliard Chapeau/Argute M.board = 15 MND
Those are a bit harder to come by for some so Errant Body + Head = 13 MND
So if I'm after decent MND amount Ixion loses or at best matches cheaper alternatives.

Ok so I want some Refresh Armor? Vermillion does the same thing.
So if I'm after Refresh Armor, Vermillion does the same thing but at 25-30% of the cost and can be used 16 levels earlier.

Ok so now I want some MACC? Scholar's Gown = +15 Elemental/Enfeebling/Dark Skill
Well Scholar's Gown alone gives me 10 more MACC while in dark arts. So unless you enfeeble in Light Arts where this actually beats any other combos.
For me this is moot because I don't enfeeble past Dia II in Light Arts.

Ok so what's left? Regen.
There is no other body a SCH can use that gives you Regen Effect. So Ixion wins hands down here. My problem is I tend to full time Stoneskin which means the Regen is negated, so this isn't really a win for me.

Bottom line, Ixion Cloak can be beat or matched by other relatively easy and cheaper gear with the exception of enfeebling in Light Arts and the Regen it gives. Is that worth 2mil(Bismarck) to you? It isn't to me.

Oh I almost forgot the argument but what if you just want a well rounded body? I don't skimp on the gear I bring to exp or events. That means I'd still have everything else with me for some reason or another.

Edited, Jun 22nd 2009 2:06pm by Zagen
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#35 Jun 22 2009 at 5:16 PM Rating: Default
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If there's anything ******** about Sublimation, it's the fact that it won't stack with Refresh but stacks just fine with Ballad/Evoker's.

Yes, I'm always going to hate that until they change it, which I'm sure they never will, but I dun care.
#36 Jun 22 2009 at 9:35 PM Rating: Decent
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Zaredx wrote:
Not being a sch myself, but being a whm and blm...there's no way you don't buff and heal in your Ixion Cloak if you have it, its going to add like 40 HP to your stoneskin over gown + mortarboard.

Ridiculous. You have macros for a reason. Macro in Errant/Mahatma for body and relic/Errant/Mahatma for head when casting SS. Why would you assume that a well-geared SCH would be incompetent and cast in the gear you listed? Is that what you would do? I have to assume so, which almost negates anything further you suggest.
Zaredx wrote:
Nuking? Ixion still probably best, AF2 gown + AF1 mortarboard = gross. At least you have some int on there. Even using fastcast charges on your nukes, each nuke is going to lose you 1-2 ticks.

Wrong. Absolutely wrong. I nuke in AF body/Errant body and AF+1/relic mortarboards, depending on the situation. Resist rates determine how I mix and match. Regardless, I out-class Ixion.

There are instances when it's useful, sure, but it's not worth its price tag. It's not doing much more than a vermy.

But I have a question:
Zaredx wrote:
Or they're nuking and weathering the blms.

Do other SCHs do this? When I'm doing a LS event, I commit to one Art or the other, more or less. I'm either Dark or Light, so I don't hop back and forth too often(unless there's an emergency of some sort). Do you guys Stormsurge the BLMs and then swap back over to nuke? Is their 7 INT and storm effect going to do more for the group than the extra nukes you can churn out with double the strategem charges available to you? I'm just curious.

Edited, Jun 23rd 2009 12:36am by order
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#37 Jun 22 2009 at 10:45 PM Rating: Good
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Quote:
Do other SCHs do this? When I'm doing a LS event, I commit to one Art or the other, more or less. I'm either Dark or Light, so I don't hop back and forth too often(unless there's an emergency of some sort). Do you guys Stormsurge the BLMs and then swap back over to nuke? Is their 7 INT and storm effect going to do more for the group than the extra nukes you can churn out with double the strategem charges available to you? I'm just curious.


I'm the same, and I've had some people gripe at me over it. From the enmity perspective, me minimizing their damage either through the slight INT boost or forcing Obi procs can mean whether or not a mob turns from our tanks and either kills the BLM or puts a dent in the rest of our alliance. And short of good MBs, me using some Parsimony'd T4s would match or exceed their added damage for close to the same MP cost.

Though, the one time I may willingly swap around is if I'm main healing Dynamis and a pack of aspirable mobs are slept together. Low MP? Not anymore~
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#38 Jun 23 2009 at 5:10 AM Rating: Excellent
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Seriha wrote:
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Do other SCHs do this? When I'm doing a LS event, I commit to one Art or the other, more or less. I'm either Dark or Light, so I don't hop back and forth too often(unless there's an emergency of some sort). Do you guys Stormsurge the BLMs and then swap back over to nuke? Is their 7 INT and storm effect going to do more for the group than the extra nukes you can churn out with double the strategem charges available to you? I'm just curious.


I'm the same, and I've had some people gripe at me over it. From the enmity perspective, me minimizing their damage either through the slight INT boost or forcing Obi procs can mean whether or not a mob turns from our tanks and either kills the BLM or puts a dent in the rest of our alliance. And short of good MBs, me using some Parsimony'd T4s would match or exceed their added damage for close to the same MP cost.

Though, the one time I may willingly swap around is if I'm main healing Dynamis and a pack of aspirable mobs are slept together. Low MP? Not anymore~


I'm in the same boat. Not to demonize those SCHs who remain versatile in the middle of events, but the overwhelming majority of events that players engage in pigeon-hole jobs into roles. We have three SCHs in my Dynamis shell, I am perma-Light Arts because I have the best cure setup (and we're usually short healers), and the other two are perma-Dark Arts because their nuking setups are nearly on par with our BLMs. That's not to say they won't swap to Light Arts here and there, or that I won't swap over myself, but generally speaking, we're pegged into roles because it helps the overall fluidity of the run.

Like everything else in FFXI, you're either adequate at everything, or good at one thing.
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#39 Jun 23 2009 at 7:50 AM Rating: Excellent
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Quote:
Do other SCHs do this? When I'm doing a LS event, I commit to one Art or the other, more or less. I'm either Dark or Light, so I don't hop back and forth too often(unless there's an emergency of some sort). Do you guys Stormsurge the BLMs and then swap back over to nuke? Is their 7 INT and storm effect going to do more for the group than the extra nukes you can churn out with double the strategem charges available to you? I'm just curious.


Typically; switching is only in cycles. In this example, switching Arts and doing AoE weathers every 3 minutes costs 2 stratagems (One for Accession, one to get Add:Black back).

If you have 3-5 BLM's in your party; then doing AoE will usually be more MP efficient. And of course, 10% damage (On top of Stormsurge's bonus) on each will do more total damage than keeping your stratagems to yourself.
Doing this cycle is also nice to recast Light-based buffs (Stoneskin, Blink) instead of casting them in dark arts; so that's another small plus.

If you have like only 2 BLM's in your party; just single target them in Dark Arts.

Quote:
And short of good MBs, me using some Parsimony'd T4s would match or exceed their added damage for close to the same MP cost.


This is nothing short of delusion. 2 Parsimony's is the equivalent of a free nuke.
1 nuke every 3 minutes cycle will not outdo an extra 10% (+ Stormsurge) on 4-5 members for the whole 3 minutes duration.
Each BLM only needs to cast an aproximate of 2 nukes every 3 minutes to match or outdo self-stratagems. Everything else is added damage.

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#40 Jun 23 2009 at 8:46 AM Rating: Decent
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and the other two are perma-Dark Arts because their nuking setups are nearly on par with our BLMs.


Not to take anything away from scholars potential, but gear choices arent the best. If their nuking setup is anywhere close to your blms, you need new blms.
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#41 Jun 23 2009 at 10:06 AM Rating: Good
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Gerkin wrote:
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and the other two are perma-Dark Arts because their nuking setups are nearly on par with our BLMs.


Not to take anything away from scholars potential, but gear choices arent the best. If their nuking setup is anywhere close to your blms, you need new blms.


This is pretty harsh. The BLMs mentioned might not be dedicated BLMs, not hardcore BLMs, or the events the LS does doesn't benefit BLM much.

To say a BLM is gimp because a SCH is getting close to their damage is ignorant, the difference is BLM/RDM has +2INT and +12MAB over a SCH/RDM at base stats. Now you could say well BLM has better gear options and that is somewhat true, they get Morrigan's Set, Z. Mitts +1, and Sorcerer's ring but that's where it ends when you take into account +MAB Redingote beats NQ Weskit.

Discounting Morrigan's for your Average BLM, and lets give them Z.Mitts+1(to be really nice) and Sorc Ring That means they have +3 MAB over a SCH using Ebullience and the SCH will have +3INT over the BLM so you can see where it gets real close.

Edit: I forgot BLM gets the JSE Ammo so they can do 10% more damage for 4 minutes out of every 30 minutes. Assuming they get the drop every week, which is a big assumption since the drop rate is low.

Edited, Jun 23rd 2009 11:17am by Zagen
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#42 Jun 23 2009 at 10:40 AM Rating: Decent
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order wrote:

Wrong. Absolutely wrong. I nuke in AF body/Errant body and AF+1/relic mortarboards, depending on the situation. Resist rates determine how I mix and match.


Zagen wrote:
Gerkin wrote:
Quote:
and the other two are perma-Dark Arts because their nuking setups are nearly on par with our BLMs.


Not to take anything away from scholars potential, but gear choices arent the best. If their nuking setup is anywhere close to your blms, you need new blms.


This is pretty harsh. The BLMs mentioned might not be dedicated BLMs, not hardcore BLMs, or the events the LS does doesn't benefit BLM much.

To say a BLM is gimp because a SCH is getting close to their damage is ignorant, the difference is BLM/RDM has +2INT and +12MAB over a SCH/RDM at base stats. Now you could say well BLM has better gear options and that is somewhat true, they get Morrigan's Set, Z. Mitts +1, and Sorcerer's ring but that's where it ends when you take into account +MAB Redingote beats NQ Weskit.

Discounting Morrigan's for your Average BLM, and lets give them Z.Mitts+1(to be really nice) and Sorc Ring That means they have +3 MAB over a SCH using Ebullience and the SCH will have +3INT over the BLM so you can see where it gets real close.

Edit: I forgot BLM gets the JSE Ammo so they can do 10% more damage for 4 minutes out of every 30 minutes. Assuming they get the drop every week, which is a big assumption since the drop rate is low.

Edited, Jun 23rd 2009 11:17am by Zagen


Against anything worthwhile, he even said he casts in a full elemental skill build. If Ele skill build scholars are matching the blms for damage, the blms need to work harder.
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#43 Jun 23 2009 at 11:01 AM Rating: Good
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Gerkin wrote:
Against anything worthwhile, he even said he casts in a full elemental skill build. If Ele skill build scholars are matching the blms for damage, the blms need to work harder.

I respond to a comment about how SCH gets "not the best" gear choices and you retort with he said in full elemental skill... reread what you quoted from, it doesn't mention the 2 perma-Dark Arts SCHs are using full elemental sets.

What is worthwhile to you? To me Dynamis, Sky(no Kirin), random NMs, lesser HNMs, and to a lesser extent Puddings since I exp on them are "worthwhile" and in all 3 of those cases I can match most of the BLMs and beat out a few of them. Don't get me wrong I still lose by a good amount to a pimped out Morrigan's BLM but that's about what it takes to beat me by a decent margin(100+ damage).

The only thing a SCH will lose out by a large margin on assuming both SCH and BLM have decent gear is against CoP Wyrms or anything that a 320/120 or 330/130 builds are suggested to have.

Edit: I don't have Sea yet but I'm working on that so to that I'll add Sea and Limbus to my "worthwhile" list, neither of which is something where a SCH needs a full elemental set to preform as a nuker.

Edited, Jun 23rd 2009 12:04pm by Zagen
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#44 Jun 23 2009 at 11:14 AM Rating: Decent
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Gerkin wrote:
Quote:
and the other two are perma-Dark Arts because their nuking setups are nearly on par with our BLMs.


Not to take anything away from scholars potential, but gear choices arent the best. If their nuking setup is anywhere close to your blms, you need new blms.


Hm... I tend to do things w/ some of the best geared BLMs you'll ever find. I generally end up being around the top of all magic parses for all events. Albeit, I am nearly at the pinnacle of a specific damage build that I'm finding more and more to be the supreme selection for a SCH.

I like that you called me bandwagon, seeing as how I was one of the first level 75 SCHs. If anything, I drove a wagon that others decided they should jump on because they saw it was heading somewhere good.

Let me say this: if I'm in a party with a RDM, the RDM is main healing. This isn't to say that RDM either is better at main healing than SCH or has less to do, because neither of those are necessarily true *though neither is the inverse*. I'm simply saying that if I'm in a meripo, there's no RDM. If I'm in an end-game event of some sorts, then I'm focusing on maximizing both my own and the damage of all the BLMs in my PT.

On the note of switching arts, I find it most beneficial and efficient to poll your BLMs about which obis they have. I follow a strict rule of "No obi = No Weather". Sea is a requirement of the LS and not having obis on a BLM is either bad luck or laziness *usually the latter*. Because of this, I rarely switch arts as I usually cast 2 hailstorms and 2 thunderstorms. One hailstorm is on myself.

PT structure for end-game is generally BLMx2-3 SCHx1-2 RDMorBRD and COR. If there are 2 SCHs, each hailstorms himself and then tackles a BLM *generally thunderstorm*. If 2 SCHs, alternating klimaform for high-resist mobs is very effective. *I prefer to ditch all stratagems except alacrity during klimaform simply for raw damage output.*

For flan-a-burns: If I'm in a PT w/ BLMs, my tier 4 spells match some of the best BLMs you'll have ever seen. A recent one with a BLM using top-notch gear *including novio* compared unresisted damage on bliz 4 to be me losing out by 8 damage. If you're going to argue that he needs better gear, you're foolish, because BLM gear doesn't really get much better than what he had to offer.

Gerkin, you're going to be very offended by my next statement, but frankly, I don't care. You may cry a little; might cut yourself some, but in the end, you'll realize that this is a game and it doesn't matter that someone ****** you off a bit. The statements you've made in this thread make it obvious to me that you fail at SCH. It seems that in your eyes, SCH is basically a RDM with a couple different toys to play with. Perhaps yours is indeed just that. I myself made my SCH into something more, as did many others who have posted here. Don't generalize me into the same bowl of suck that you're swimming in.
#45 Jun 23 2009 at 11:44 AM Rating: Default
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697 posts
Banggugyangu wrote:
The statements you've made in this thread make it obvious to me that you fail at SCH. It seems that in your eyes, SCH is basically a RDM with a couple different toys to play with. Perhaps yours is indeed just that. I myself made my SCH into something more, as did many others who have posted here. Don't generalize me into the same bowl of suck that you're swimming in.


I said that. Look at my job list, if im on sch or rdm im a healer, if it calls for a nuker im on blm. I never said otherwise. In fact, my only statement was that i prefer ixi cloak and refresh from rdm, because my scholar is VERY focused as a backup to a red mage in a tank party. If im on scholar its either /drk the one time we fought PW for aoe stunning lamps, or as a /Na mage, curing the rest of the time. Thats why its 75, fills in the tiny gap i have between rdm and blm. You can critique me all you want, or use all ur funny little internet lines, but the fact is, you're just mad that i play the job different than you, that i didnt jump on the bandwagon, and flip out on anyone that mentions anything different than how i play. I didnt say you were wrong for using sublimation, i just said i prefer it my way, and i only play with people in my LS, and none of the RDMs have any issue, or gripe with refreshing me. So what does it really matter? If you dont agree, do i have to hear about it?
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#46 Jun 23 2009 at 12:03 PM Rating: Good
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7,451 posts
It was a figure of speech. I was thinking Dynamis, which is hardly a test of skill builds. Yes, I'm sure our BLMs nuke the pants off our SCHs, but I don't care because I filter everyone's damage except my own. Blame my melee ways.
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milich wrote:
Quote:
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MNK ~ SMN ~ SCH
#47 Jun 23 2009 at 12:06 PM Rating: Excellent
Sage
**
992 posts
Quote:
Ridiculous. You have macros for a reason. Macro in Errant/Mahatma for body and relic/Errant/Mahatma for head when casting SS. Why would you assume that a well-geared SCH would be incompetent and cast in the gear you listed? Is that what you would do? I have to assume so, which almost negates anything further you suggest.


I'm saying you should be swapping gear in order to cast your spells...and if you are swapping gear out, you're going to be missing ticks of your sublimation while you cast, so you can't run numbers assuming you are full timing your sublimation gear, since you'd have to be dumb to do so. I should have been more clear, when I said "No way you don't buff in your Ixion Cloak if you have it" I also meant to imply "Or Errant otherwise". You apparently have taken it as "Since you're not swapping in stoneskin gear, it's better to be full timing Ixion Cloak instead of Sublimation gear", which is not what I was saying at all. I'm saying that since you're swapping in MND gear, you're going to lose those ticks while its casting. Now of course, none of those points of MP really matter...you'll never see a SCH struggle because they lost those ticks of sublimation/refresh while they were buffing. But I've never seen a RDM struggle when Princess Gerkin makes it so they have to refresh 4 people instead of 3, so there you go I guess? It's all horribly pointless and I don't see why you're all getting so mad about it.

And anyways, as an FYI, a hume SCH/RDM with semi-decent gear can easily reach the stoneskin cap, you don't need Goliard Head + Mahatma Body do to it. Ixion, or NQ Errant head+body, AF legs, Errant Feet, NQ water staff, P.Rope, even +3 MND rings, that'll get you to the cap. Throw a rainbow cape on and a strap and upgrade your rings, you can even make the 380 cap for a stone gorget. It'll be costly one way or the other to reach the 410 cap for gorget + mufflers, but I think that's pretty uncommon, to have a tank with both coordinating with a scholar to swap gear in when the sch gives them stoneskin. If it happens, that's impressive, though I'm not entirely sure it's worth the effort on the PLDs part!

As for nuking, I thought 1 or 2 int for 5 m.acc was a decent trade, if you're not going full out m.acc or full out int. If I'm wrong and there is no middle ground on damage vs. accuracy then fine, I'm not a scholar I wouldn't know, but my point wasn't that you should nuke in Ixion Cloak no matter what, it was that you should never nuke in Argute Gown. That is, just reinforcing that no matter what role you are playing, you will be doing gear swaps.

Finally, I'm also not saying it's worth the money, because it's a rip off for what it gives you. But if you're in an HNMLS, you probably can get one for points, instead of 10 bajillion gil. In that case, the extra MP in a party situation seems pretty decent for a week or two worth of points, considering it's reasonably close to the best you can nuke with in situations where you don't need to cap out your acc, and it's certainly going to cap your stoneskin out. It'll also be better to cure in, by the way. Sure, your errant + goliard has more MND, but VIT is important too when casting Cure V, if not as much as MND is, take it from a whm. Probably doesn't affect Cure IV at all, but meh ;)

Edited, Jun 23rd 2009 4:16pm by Zaredx
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#48 Jun 23 2009 at 1:01 PM Rating: Good
Scholar
**
508 posts
Acturus wrote:


We're ignoring Stoneskin because it negates the HP loss associated with Sublimation.

If Stoneskin is "up all the time," why exactly does a SCH need to cast Regen on himself?


You're quite right, I only realised this after posting that. D'oh.
#49 Jun 23 2009 at 1:21 PM Rating: Good
Guru
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365 posts
Zaredx wrote:

And anyways, as an FYI, a hume SCH/RDM with semi-decent gear can easily reach the stoneskin cap, you don't need Goliard Head + Mahatma Body do to it. Ixion, or NQ Errant head+body, AF legs, Errant Feet, NQ water staff, P.Rope, even +3 MND rings, that'll get you to the cap.


Just Nitpicking but Errant Slops > AF Legs for Stoneskin because Enhancing gets divided by 3. 7 Points > 5 Points towards Stoneskin cap.
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#50 Jun 23 2009 at 1:46 PM Rating: Decent
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109 posts
The bolded stuff is similar to what i was going to type before but didnt >.>

Banggugyangu wrote:
Gerkin, you're going to be very offended by my next statement, but frankly, I don't care. You may cry a little; might cut yourself some, but in the end, you'll realize that this is a game and it doesn't matter that someone ****** you off a bit. The statements you've made in this thread make it obvious to me that you fail at SCH. It seems that in your eyes, SCH is basically a RDM with a couple different toys to play with. Perhaps yours is indeed just that. I myself made my SCH into something more, as did many others who have posted here. Don't generalize me into the same bowl of suck that you're swimming in.


Rofl! ^^ I like this


Banggu and I dont seem to agree on everything, maybe its because i need to step up my "game" or maybe he's too one sided about his decisions.. But one things for sure, he reads Gerkin pretty well. Banggu from what I gather is more of a dark arts Sch, so i'm sure he can attest easily to how well we can perform. I have above average nuking gear and I already hit on par or surpass most blm's i'm with(not in all scenerios). As for healing, as far as mp efficiency goes i can easily out last rdm or whm. And the rdm's and whm's I'm comparing myself to have varying degrees of good to amazing gear.

I'll reiterate, but for the sch community as a whole!

Banggugyangu wrote:
Don't generalize me into the same bowl of suck that you're swimming in.
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#51 Jun 24 2009 at 5:25 PM Rating: Good
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629 posts
ElVendi wrote:
Banggu and I dont seem to agree on everything, maybe its because i need to step up my "game" or maybe he's too one sided about his decisions.. But one things for sure, he reads Gerkin pretty well. Banggu from what I gather is more of a dark arts Sch, so i'm sure he can attest easily to how well we can perform. I have above average nuking gear and I already hit on par or surpass most blm's i'm with(not in all scenerios). As for healing, as far as mp efficiency goes i can easily out last rdm or whm. And the rdm's and whm's I'm comparing myself to have varying degrees of good to amazing gear


I am indeed a dark arts SCH. If I'm doing something *other than meripo* that requires me to be healing in some form, I'll use my WHM. As potent as my SCH happens to be at it *and quite potent it is indeed* my WHM absolutely demolishes it. For meripo, omfg SCH is fricken easy button.

For all things damage, however, I'll reiterate this while doing my best to not be a braggart. You'll be hard pressed to find a BLM that tops me. Saying that SCH's choices are abysmal is an ignorant comment. A SCH's MP pool should easily match an equally geared BLM's MP pool in damage. You just have to re-think how you gear up.

Gerkin, why not just level WHM and go /SMN? You can get more MP/sec that way and be much more potent in the main healing field.
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