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Dark Ixion CloakFollow

#1 May 10 2009 at 8:04 AM Rating: Good
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So I'm looking ahead to the future, and I wonder about DI's Cloak, it seems to me like it could have some potential in stats, but it could just as easily be a more expensive Vermy with regen on it. So is the cloak just a more expensive enhanced vermy useful when you're idling and not expecting to be hit, or does it have applications for nuking and/or enfeebling?
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#2 May 10 2009 at 1:10 PM Rating: Decent
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I wouldn't even put Ixion Cloak in the same category as Vermillion Cloak... it's SO much better. Let's look at the stats...

Vermillion cloak
[Body] All Races
Cannot Equip Headgear DEF: 46
MP +10 MP +1% Evasion -10
Adds "Refresh" effect
Lv. 59 MNK / WHM / BLM / RDM / PLD / BRD /
RNG / SMN / BLU / PUP / SCH

vs.

Ixion cloak Rare
[Body] All Races
Cannot Equip Headgear
DEF: 43 INT +13 MND +13 CHR +13
Magic Accuracy +5
Adds "Regen" and "Refresh" effect
Lv. 74 WHM / BLM / RDM / BRD / SMN / BLU /
PUP / SCH

+13 MND, +13 INT & Magic Accuracy +5 and you're asking if it has applications for nuking and/or enfeebling? Bottom line, yes. This cloak is godly. If you can obtain it, or afford it, it's definately a nice piece... however the price tag is rather high... There really are no disadvantages for any caster who chooses to use this cloak, only advantages.
#3 May 10 2009 at 1:30 PM Rating: Good
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Ixion's Cloak utility has been diminished as new gear has been added to SCH.

Most of the time; you'd want to idle in AF1 Hat and AF2 Body. This combination will make Sublimation have the equivalent of 4MP/Tick.
This leaves Ixion Cloak little room as an idle piece. Typically you'd only want to wear it between charges and while holding a full charge for whatever reason; which is a very small portion of the time.

As for nuking. AF1 Hat and Errant offer more damage; and they both have room to upgrade further (+1 on either or both). You could even replace the errant with a "Weskit" Royal Redingote for more damage.
So for nuking Ixion will only offer a small boost at M.Accu and be trumped at damage by the other combinations.

In short, Ixion Cloak is just a nice thing to have; holding second place in most of what we do. However, the price tag associated with it does not justify the marginal improvement and extra hassle for idling it offers.
I'd only get it if I didn't have AF2 Body, or it was free from the ls, or like throwing money away.

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#4 May 10 2009 at 6:27 PM Rating: Good
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I still use mine pretty commonly even though I have the relic body. It's a solid piece, particularly for Helix spells where might need just a smidge more accuracy to land, but going to AF body would give you a drop in damage. It's pretty rare I'm riding Sublimation second to second, either. So, even if it comes out to something like 70 more MP in a 10 minute span despite other swaps, it's still MP I wouldn't have had.

I've seen people blow money on far less, personally. Get it and try it. Sell it back if you don't think it fits your style. I'll never be making a Weskit style ACP body, myself. Even then, I'd never use that for a Helix.
#5 Jun 02 2009 at 4:51 PM Rating: Decent
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Scholar has B+ Elemental magic skill with Dark Arts. So I'd recommend Scholar's Mortarboard/Scholar's Gown combo or you'd be resisting a whole lot.

+1 Gown, and Mortarboard gives you +15 Dark arts skill, including elemental magic and +8 INT. Assuming 1 M. Acc = .9 skill, With cloak, You're trading off 10.5 skill for 5 extra int. And if you're a Taru, that int isn't going to be a huge deal and non tarus can make up the loss int from Cloak with food or in other parts of the gear.

If you're lucky enough to get Argute M Board, you can get +22 Elemental Magic skill paired with AF body, which puts you about on par with a Black Mage's base elemental magic skill.






Edited, Jun 2nd 2009 5:59pm by Dekusutaa
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#6 Jun 07 2009 at 9:22 PM Rating: Decent
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To me personally, Ixion and vermies provide more use than ppl seem to give them credit for. Apparently everyone seems to be so on top of constant sublimation use, that there is only a 30 second window to ever need to use a vermy/ixion. (Practicality seems to show otherwise though)

However, I'll list my personal preferences for use of my ixion cloak which I do make quite of bit of use of even though i also have argute gown. I will also disclaim that I do an aweful lot of soloing, therefore am constantly on my feet, runnin, and on the go.

Scenario 1: My average sublimation complete grants ~ 270 mp. If I am less than 270 mp away from my total MP cap (around 900-1k) then I will not yet utilize my sublimtation store. Instead, I use my ixion cloak to get that mp up.

Scenario 2: If Sublimation is actively pulling, common sense tells us to utilize AF hat and argute gown while it is in process. So no ixion there.

Scenario 3: If I'm running around a place like sky (hellotoyou magic aggro!) and want to activate sublimation, then I put on Ixion Cloak, Garden Bangles, and Orochi Nodowa for a 2-3 HP/tic Regen, thus virtually nullifying the negative draw back of losing HP (since you can't put up stoneskin). I also apply this to when Im running around and don't really have time to put stoneskin up atm, especially in Sea or if im doing IX'Aern fights, fortitudes, or prudences. Every digit of HP counts when you're taru, with no stoneskin, losing HP, and in midfight with something that doesn't play nice.

I have 2 idling macros; one of which applies relic body with af hat for the 4/tic, for when i have stoneskin up, or don't care about the hp loss, and prefer the quicker sublimation stocking; the other macro being the ixion for the reasons mentioned above.


Personally I see no reason to use ixion for a nuking/helix piece, as there are far too many other nuking combinations out there, all of which surpass ixions nuking usage. AF hat + Morgana's cotehardie; AF hat + Errant/Mahatma; Yigit; or for anti-resists, af gown + either af hat or elite beret/(+1). Pretty much, there is no nuking scenario where ixion would out perform other gear, and honestly, the other said gear is incredibly cheap. AF coat is free, errant is like 30-60kish, morgana's is down to 200-300kish on my server (i could see how that's a lil pricey for some, but certainly much cheaper than ixion). So I jus don't even consider Ixion Cloak a nuking piece; simply a glorified vermy that happens to give scholars something they actually need more than a rdm or blm would, which is that regen to combat our sublimation pulling.
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#7 Jun 07 2009 at 11:06 PM Rating: Default
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>.> 1st... omfg why necrobumps?

2ndly:
xXxNaobixXx wrote:

To me personally, Ixion and vermies provide more use than ppl seem to give them credit for.

From an MP standpoint, Ixion and vermy will both never offer anything more than 10 MP ever few minutes. It can't. It is literally and mathematically impossible to do otherwise.

xXxNaobixXx wrote:

Scenario 1: My average sublimation complete grants ~ 270 mp. If I am less than 270 mp away from my total MP cap (around 900-1k) then I will not yet utilize my sublimtation store. Instead, I use my ixion cloak to get that mp up.

1: If you're taru, you don't have both 1100 HP and 1k MP. I have almost the best possible gear and MP merits. I alternate back and forth from 600-1100 HP and from 700-900 MP. I generally sit on the 1100 HP mark though with around 700 MP.
2: All Ixion's is doing at this point is allowing you to be somewhat lazy. If you're nearly full MP and have a full sublimation charge, the argument for ixion's cloak holds less weight, as that MP stored up just isn't that important to you at the time. If you have relic body, the argument goes down even further, as you would actually restore and maintain your MP at a more efficient rate, should you dump the charge and begin charging anew. To add to that statement, if you were to USE the surplus of MP you have at the time, that extra MP you have stored is then not wasted whatsoever. If you so desire to gain that extra 10 MP on the downtime between sublimations while having relic body for charging, that's your own prerogative.

xXxNaobixXx wrote:

Scenario 2: If Sublimation is actively pulling, common sense tells us to utilize AF hat and argute gown while it is in process. So no ixion there.

Scenario 3: If I'm running around a place like sky (hellotoyou magic aggro!) and want to activate sublimation, then I put on Ixion Cloak, Garden Bangles, and Orochi Nodowa for a 2-3 HP/tic Regen, thus virtually nullifying the negative draw back of losing HP (since you can't put up stoneskin). I also apply this to when Im running around and don't really have time to put stoneskin up atm, especially in Sea or if im doing IX'Aern fights, fortitudes, or prudences. Every digit of HP counts when you're taru, with no stoneskin, losing HP, and in midfight with something that doesn't play nice.

1: It's "pooling" not "pulling".
2: If you can't maneuver sky without agroing via casting *while still casting the same spells you would anywhere else*, then please practice until you can. If you still cannot master it, please go home. I'm in sky quite often. I'm rarely not on a mage job. I never take oils or powders. I'm never in a situation where I even MIGHT agro something via magic. It's simple once you learn the proper distance for magic agro and also the behaviors it will always follow. *If you would get the "xxx cannot see the Decorative Weapon." message while trying to cast on that mob, he won't see you casting on yourself.*
3: If you're doing anything that matters, unless you're not /RDM or /WHM, you should have stoneskin applied at all times. Failure to do so is borderline retarded. It's saved my @$$ more times than an auto-regen trait would *especially with how little I would have that piece equipped*.

xXxNaobixXx wrote:

I have 2 idling macros; one of which applies relic body with af hat for the 4/tic, for when i have stoneskin up, or don't care about the hp loss, and prefer the quicker sublimation stocking; the other macro being the ixion for the reasons mentioned above.

I also have 2 idle macros: 1 used when sublimation is charging, 1 used when it's not. Rather than use a refresh body piece, however, I stock up on damage mitigation. Defense and evasion are useful in such a build. I'm rarely in this gear set however, as I'm usually casting something and therefore in the respective gear set. Because of this fact, I argue that vermy/ixion offers actually less than 10 MP every few minutes. Just because sublimation isn't chugging along doesn't mean I stop doing whatever I may be doing. I continue to cast, and you better believe that a refresh body piece will NOT be a part of any of those actions.

xXxNaobixXx wrote:

Personally I see no reason to use ixion for a nuking/helix piece, as there are far too many other nuking combinations out there, all of which surpass ixions nuking usage. AF hat + Morgana's cotehardie; AF hat + Errant/Mahatma; Yigit; or for anti-resists, af gown + either af hat or elite beret/(+1). Pretty much, there is no nuking scenario where ixion would out perform other gear, and honestly, the other said gear is incredibly cheap. AF coat is free, errant is like 30-60kish, morgana's is down to 200-300kish on my server (i could see how that's a lil pricey for some, but certainly much cheaper than ixion). So I jus don't even consider Ixion Cloak a nuking piece; simply a glorified vermy that happens to give scholars something they actually need more than a rdm or blm would, which is that regen to combat our sublimation pulling.

I agree and raise you a relic hat for resistances. As I've said in a previous thread, I'm currently working on a full INT build even for resistant situations, so even AF body/relic hat are rare to see my **** body.

SCH doesn't NEED the regen of ixion's cloak. It's nice if you don't have relic body, but don't use words like "need" when talking about a very situational gear that is marginally better than some pieces and greatly overshadowed by an easy-to-achieve superior piece.

Once again... it's "pooling" and not "pulling". Sublimation takes HP, converts it into MP, and stores it in a "pool" not a "pull". Same concept as the "Treasure Pool" that mobs drop things into.
#8 Jun 08 2009 at 12:47 PM Rating: Decent
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Quote:
1: If you're taru, you don't have both 1100 HP and 1k MP. I have almost the best possible gear and MP merits. I alternate back and forth from 600-1100 HP and from 700-900 MP. I generally sit on the 1100 HP mark though with around 700 MP.


So if you know that your hp and mp "alternate" back and forth, why assume mine doesn't? If you'd like i'll provide screenshots just for you.


Quote:
2: To add to that statement, if you were to USE the surplus of MP you have at the time, that extra MP you have stored is then not wasted whatsoever.


If i have to force myself to "use" the surplus of mp i have at the time so that im not wasting my sublimation mp, I would still be "wasting" my mp casting spells to get the surplus gone if im doing it for the sole purpose of burning away the mp to make room for a full stock of sublimation.

Quote:

2: If you can't maneuver sky without agroing via casting *while still casting the same spells you would anywhere else*, then please practice until you can. If you still cannot master it, please go home. I'm in sky quite often. I'm rarely not on a mage job. I never take oils or powders. I'm never in a situation where I even MIGHT agro something via magic. It's simple once you learn the proper distance for magic agro and also the behaviors it will always follow. *If you would get the "xxx cannot see the Decorative Weapon." message while trying to cast on that mob, he won't see you casting on yourself.*


lol. You're antics and semantics are cute, I'll admit. Anyone "can" maneuver sky jus to get a skin off. Going out of my way to find a place to do that when im not even fighting anything but am tryin to get somewhere is just absurd and pointless. Sure its not like its gonna take 15 mins out of my time to do it, but its pointless. Why waste the mp and time it would take to put up a stoneskin as im running from the main entrance of sky to say.... Zip, when i can toss on an ixion cloak, and other pieces of Regen gear, get the same effect as having stoneskin on, without wasting the time, or mp to accomplish it? Is that really laziness? or efficiency and common sense? Work smarter not harder.


3: If you're doing anything that matters, unless you're not /RDM or /WHM, you should have stoneskin applied at all times. Failure to do so is borderline retarded. It's saved my @$$ more times than an auto-regen trait would *especially with how little I would have that piece equipped*.

If you think I need to keep up Stoneskin for solo's like Ulli, Despot, or ix'mnks and other things of that nature at all times or i'm borderline retarded then perhaps you should learn how to stop getting hit so much. No doubt that having a skin up is obviously a plus, and absolutely can save your life, but making the statement you did jus makes you much more retarded than the ppl you're calling retarded. Either way im not here for the epeen contest and silly alla arguments that you consistently start.

Quote:

I agree and raise you a relic hat for resistances.


Good catch and addition, you finally contributed something positive to a thread. Good job.

Quote:
SCH doesn't NEED the regen of ixion's cloak. It's nice if you don't have relic body, but don't use words like "need" when talking about a very situational gear that is marginally better than some pieces and greatly overshadowed by an easy-to-achieve superior piece.


Again, semantics. We don't even NEEED to be playing the game. Stop trying to make ppl believe that dessert means a hot sweaty sandy area with no acclimatizations. Every piece of gear is situational, none of it is needed, and noone "needs" to be shown that. Oki admittedly some ppl do, but that's not the point lol.

Quote:
Once again... it's "pooling" and not "pulling". Sublimation takes HP, converts it into MP, and stores it in a "pool" not a "pull". Same concept as the "Treasure Pool" that mobs drop things into.


I need to get you enrolled in a Bachelor's program for semantics; don't worry, you'd fly through it np. Though you are correct, in the "pooling" example you gave, i personally refer to is as pulling and shall continue to do so for other reasons, But I humbly accept your correction.


I'd also like to mention that Ixion cloak has actually been a deciding factor in a few of my solos in instances where i wuz already in Orange HP, (no sublimation "pooling" for me) and didn't have enough mp to continue finishing the fight. The only reason i was able to recover and eventually get back on my feet and regain ground was because of the regen/refresh i got from the cloak and other pieces that i mentioned previously. Either way I digress. I'm more than happy to settle this at the "To each his/her own" level. I simply wanted to share other degrees of usage that the OP may not have considered.
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#9 Jun 09 2009 at 7:28 AM Rating: Decent
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If anyone is arguing semantics, you're the culprit by arguing the definition of the word "need". I'm simply stating that I disagree with your opinion that Ixion's cloak is a must have piece of equipment for a SCH. I stated reasons why I believe so.

I doubt you can honestly say that you're always in a situation where you never have anything that you COULD cast that would be useful. I'm sure there are times when you hold off on the slightly less important spells in order to conserve MP. I know you do because I do so myself as have all other mages I've come across in the 7 years I've played this game. Those spells aren't wasteful, there are just others that are more important that you prioritize. My example of using your MP to reach the point where you can dump a full charge and not overflow any of it was hinting at casting this other less important spells. You're not wasting your MP by doing so. As I said before, however. Doing so will restore your MP at a faster rate over time than simply sitting with sublimation fully charged and using the ixion's cloak to top off. You have the same amount of MP for it. You have MP coming in faster. My question to you is this: If you spend 10 MP and end up with 700 MP afterwards, or spend 150 MP and end up with 700 MP afterwards, which scenario is more utilized?


Regarding maneuvering sky: The beauty of it all is that once you truly learn how to maneuver sky and when and where to cast spells, you realize that you really don't ever have to go out of your way to do so. I simply involves keeping track of all of your surroundings. There are ample opportunities to get a sneak cast off when trekking to ulli. Plenty of times you can cast stoneskin no matter where you're heading. It's child's play once you learn it.

Regarding being hit: Can you honestly say you don't get hit? I avoid taking hits quite often, but I won't even attempt to say it doesn't ever happen. The thing is, when it does happen, I am not expecting it. That's why I say that if you don't keep stoneskin up constantly, you're nigh retarded. The only situation where I know when and why I'm going to be taking damage is a meripo. Other times catch me completely by surprised and are usually linked to someone else's actions.

I can't count how many times I've been soloing something w/ a considerable amount of HP and a melee in a PT w/ me decides he should help kill it. By the time he understands why I'm ****** at him, I'm reduced to <10% HP after a full stoneskin and with a few cures as well.

Other times, I'll have been nuking something such as suzaku for a large portion of the fight, built up a considerable amount of hate, and the tanks all die. Guess who the birdy wants to eat then.

My standing on the item: Is ixion's cloak useful? Absolutely. Is it so useful that it's worth the cost with SCH being the only job that truly utilizes it? Absolutely not.
#10 Jun 09 2009 at 10:43 AM Rating: Excellent
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Banggugyangu wrote:

I also have 2 idle macros: 1 used when sublimation is charging, 1 used when it's not. Rather than use a refresh body piece, however, I stock up on damage mitigation.


What body piece and/or head piece do you apply when you're in Idle but not charging Sublimation?

I have a Vermillion Cloak left over from the days when it was more useful (it's pretty much only a SCH idle piece now), and both of my idle macros are both predominantly Damage Down (Earth Staff, Jelly Ring, Cheviot Cape, Orochi Nodowa), but one has AF hat/Argute Gown, and the other has Vermy.

I absolutley agree with the statements you've made from day 1 that an Auto-Refresh body piece for a SCH is more a luxury than a necessity, but what other option is there to equip on the body for the times when Sublimation isn't charging and you're idle?
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#11 Jun 10 2009 at 2:12 AM Rating: Decent
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Quote:
I can't count how many times I've been soloing something w/ a considerable amount of HP and a melee in a PT w/ me decides he should help kill it. By the time he understands why I'm ****** at him, I'm reduced to <10% HP after a full stoneskin and with a few cures as well.


omg i know what you mean ><. I can't stand when this happens. Its gotten to the point now where i simply don't even bother to help my LS with things like Aw'Euvhi's for ls limbus anymore simply for that reason. Someone with butterknives, not paying one bit of attention to what's going on around them, and swinging like a blender at anything that moves. We actually have an infamous quote in our LS now because of it: "Prestige, MPKin our mages since day 1!"

Quote:
As I said before, however. Doing so will restore your MP at a faster rate over time than simply sitting with sublimation fully charged and using the ixion's cloak to top off. You have the same amount of MP for it. You have MP coming in faster. My question to you is this: If you spend 10 MP and end up with 700 MP afterwards, or spend 150 MP and end up with 700 MP afterwards, which scenario is more utilized?


I actually agree with you quite a bit here. The times when im not doing this though, is not when im 250 mp from being full and my stock is 270, (that's worth "wasting" the 20 leftover mp to keep sublimation constantly flowing). Its when im 10, 30, 50 or so from cap, and situation dictates that it would make more sense to not use yet, and wait a few more seconds until i drop a nuke or something that opens my gap large enough to warrant droppin the stock.

Quote:
My standing on the item: Is ixion's cloak useful? Absolutely. Is it so useful that it's worth the cost with SCH being the only job that truly utilizes it? Absolutely not.


Had you started off even remotely close to this statement previously, I prolly wouldn't have an argument with you what-so-ever. But your demeaning connotation proved otherwise. My standing, is that ppl do the monkey see monkey do, and think/say/preach, that a vermy/ixion is only useful for the 30 seconds in between sublimation uses, which is false. This image that ppl present to others is misguiding, and understates the practicality of the piece of gear. As you said, is it needed? no, not by a long shot, useful, absolutely. Luxury item? sure, but isn't all gear? is it worth getting? answerable only to the eye of the beholder. If you make enough gil that tossing 2.5ish mil at it is chump change, then obviously yes. If its hard to come by, then most likely not. Either way, its not reason to intentionally understate the capability and usefulness of said piece of gear.

My points with sky weren't that i can't find a place to cast skin, but that taking the mp, or time to cast skin while running around sky from island to island with absolutely 0 chance of a mob hitting you, is pointless, and thus causes me to go "out of my way" to do something that is not needed, where as jus putting up ixion cloak and 2 other regen pieces is not only easier, less time consuming, but makes quite a bit more sense, as well as have the same effect as putting up skin and having argute gown and hat on, without wasting the time/mp to do so. Forgive me, im an efficiency *****.


Either way though, We're at the point of kicking a dead horse, So I digress ^,^
To each his own, as is the case with nearly all things in ffxi.




Edited, Jun 10th 2009 3:13am by xXxNaobixXx
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Blm: 75, Sch: 75, Rdm: 75, Nin: 75, Smn: 72

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#12 Jun 10 2009 at 7:49 AM Rating: Decent
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xXxNaobixXx wrote:
butterknives

omfg butterknives is my new favorite word

Quote:

I actually agree with you quite a bit here. The times when im not doing this though, is not when im 250 mp from being full and my stock is 270, (that's worth "wasting" the 20 leftover mp to keep sublimation constantly flowing). Its when im 10, 30, 50 or so from cap, and situation dictates that it would make more sense to not use yet, and wait a few more seconds until i drop a nuke or something that opens my gap large enough to warrant droppin the stock.

Usually, when I'm faced with the same situation, I need to refresh my reraise or protect/shell/various other buffs anyway. Even a couple of those are enough to pop me just below a full charge.

Quote:

Had you started off even remotely close to this statement previously, I prolly wouldn't have an argument with you what-so-ever. But your demeaning connotation proved otherwise. My standing, is that ppl do the monkey see monkey do, and think/say/preach, that a vermy/ixion is only useful for the 30 seconds in between sublimation uses, which is false. This image that ppl present to others is misguiding, and understates the practicality of the piece of gear. As you said, is it needed? no, not by a long shot, useful, absolutely. Luxury item? sure, but isn't all gear? is it worth getting? answerable only to the eye of the beholder. If you make enough gil that tossing 2.5ish mil at it is chump change, then obviously yes. If its hard to come by, then most likely not. Either way, its not reason to intentionally understate the capability and usefulness of said piece of gear.

The only problem I have with this I'll explain with an example preceded by a small explanation:
My THF is also 75. I am far less tolerant of THF gear than I am of any other job. It's far easier to botch THF than most other jobs.

I came across a THF once that was using p.harpe and Heartsnatcher. I asked why he had a heartsnatcher. He said he thought it was good. I proceeded to inform him that it's utter garbage and he should just drop it now. He asked what he should use. I stated that Blau dolch is by far the most useful dagger in the entire game, and if a THF is putting together a weapon combo post-72, blau dolch should be included. This is widely accepted as fact in the THF community *NOT OPINION*. He ran to the auction house and bought one. I joined a party a few days later and he was in it. I asked how he liked the blau dolch. He said, "It's so amazing!!!". 5 minutes into the party.. I noticed he's main handing the blau......... Nuff said?

The problem is that people either won't understand that ixion's cloak should only be used in this or that situation, or will be too lazy to switch. They'll full-time it because someone said it's good.

Quote:

My points with sky weren't that i can't find a place to cast skin, but that taking the mp, or time to cast skin while running around sky from island to island with absolutely 0 chance of a mob hitting you, is pointless, and thus causes me to go "out of my way" to do something that is not needed, where as jus putting up ixion cloak and 2 other regen pieces is not only easier, less time consuming, but makes quite a bit more sense, as well as have the same effect as putting up skin and having argute gown and hat on, without wasting the time/mp to do so. Forgive me, im an efficiency *****.

I usually pop celerity and penury when I'm casting skin in sky. Cast time on it is extremely short w/ celerity and the MP cost is barely worth mentioning.

Quote:

Either way though, We're at the point of kicking a dead horse, So I digress ^,^
To each his own, as is the case with nearly all things in ffxi.


I have other games we could play w/ dead horses.... >.>

*edit* acturus, I use Wonder Kaftan in between charges for idle body piece. Being taru, HP helps a lot. I'm hopefully soon to replace that with goliard body, however, which will also be my default healing/buffing body piece. I'm way past the stoneskin cap w/o errant body so haste = yesprzu.

Edited, Jun 10th 2009 10:50am by Banggugyangu
#13 Jun 10 2009 at 10:47 AM Rating: Excellent
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Banggugyangu wrote:
*edit* acturus, I use Wonder Kaftan in between charges for idle body piece. Being taru, HP helps a lot. I'm hopefully soon to replace that with goliard body, however, which will also be my default healing/buffing body piece. I'm way past the stoneskin cap w/o errant body so haste = yesprzu.

Cool, thank you.
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#14 Jun 10 2009 at 11:46 AM Rating: Excellent
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For a second there I thought he was speaking of Taru level 1 RSE. The idea of watching a fully geared 75 in that made me lol.

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#15 Jun 17 2009 at 1:11 PM Rating: Decent
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Personally i use ixi cloak almost full time, and make sure im getting refresh. Rather that combo then sublimation.
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#16 Jun 18 2009 at 8:56 AM Rating: Decent
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Gerkin wrote:
Personally i use ixi cloak almost full time, and make sure im getting refresh. Rather that combo then sublimation.


With you having RDM leveled to 75, I can't understand how you could justify this... >.>

Also, as stated earlier, Ixion's cloak has no place in nuking gear due to AF body being superior for resists and even NQ errant body being superior for damage. There really aren't any situations that would call for this piece as a middle-of-the-road body piece.
#17 Jun 18 2009 at 10:37 AM Rating: Default
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Quote:
Personally i use ixi cloak almost full time, and make sure im getting refresh. Rather that combo then sublimation.


SCH's asking for Refresh while not weakened make me cry.
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#18 Jun 18 2009 at 11:41 AM Rating: Decent
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just cuz you have an ability doesnt mean you have to use it. Sublimation with the right setup is 4 hp to mp a tick, refresh on with ixion cloak is 4 mp a tick. the difference? the refresh doesnt stop, its a constant 4 MP hitting your pool every tick. With sublimation you get the same effect, only have to use the ability to get it out of it, then wait 30 seconds to start refreshing urself again. Theres downsides, like if you get hit too hard you have to use the ability, wait 30, then start over again. The only time it is 100% superior is when you are at 100% MP, and can burn through a few hundred of it with instant sublimation, but other than the start of a fight, how often are you at 100% or even close on MP. Theres down time, "being a 75 rdm" i know a good rdm wont have it off me as long as the recast is between using your charge and not. Honestly, if i have a good red mage, ill get more MP over time than using sublimation full time.

And dont argue its an MP sink for a red mage. How often do you really have MP issues on red mage. I do very rdm intensive events, often, and i wouldnt think twice about refreshing my scholar whos backing me up.

Now if you want to argue that its a fantastic ability when there is no rdm in the party, thats fine and ill agree with you. But in my case, if there is no rdm in the party, guess who has to go job change to rdm?
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#19 Jun 18 2009 at 12:00 PM Rating: Decent
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I personally do not have Dark Ixion Cloak for my SCH. The reason is because I dont have 2-3 millions to spend just for regen. As I have better other options for helix/nukes.

However I think having a refresh piece is important. Even though I have Argute Gown , I still use V.cloak pretty regularly.

My idle macro is the following :

/equip main "Terra Staff"
/equip neck "Orochi Nodowa" (SP?)
/equip body "Vermillion Cloak"
/equip head "Sch. M.board +1"
/equip body "Argute Gown"


When Sublimation is charging I leave Relic body/AF head on, when it's fully charged I hit the macro again to swap in V.cloak. When I use sublimation I hit another time and it swaps back Relic/AF.

I like to keep my macros simple and in 1-2 pallets , so I dont have two macros for idling.

I imagine Ixion Cloak would be nice in solo kited fights such as Ix'Aerns and JoForti..etc

Hope my macro helped you guys :)
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#20 Jun 18 2009 at 1:11 PM Rating: Good
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I was under the assumption that Ixion/Vermy + Sublimation is more effective over time than Scholar's Mortarboard + Sublimation.
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#21 Jun 18 2009 at 10:52 PM Rating: Good
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Gerkin wrote:
jSublimation with the right setup is 4 hp to mp a tick, refresh on with ixion cloak is 4 mp a tick. Honestly, if i have a good red mage, ill get more MP over time than using sublimation full time.

And dont argue its an MP sink for a red mage. How often do you really have MP issues on red mage. I do very rdm intensive events, often, and i wouldnt think twice about refreshing my scholar whos backing me up.


You do realize you're essentially making the RDM spend 40MP so you so you can get the equivalent of a 1HP/Tick regen, yes?
This is even worse than a RDM asking another RDM for refresh. You're trading a >> FREE << ability for one that costs 40MP, casting time, and focus for pretty much the same effect.

And all the things about "sublimation being unreliable" can be said about having the need of an outside person keeping up an ephemeral buff on you.


But why do I even bother? Your marginal MP gains are obviously more important than any other mage.
Maybe you step it up and ask your RDM to single target Protect/Shell IV instead of you -Gaing them; since it costs you MP and we can't have that.
Or maybe even get a second SCH to give you Weather/Blink/stoneskin; so you don't have to cast those on yourself.

See where I'm getting at?
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#22 Jun 19 2009 at 4:41 AM Rating: Decent
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Tyjet wrote:
I was under the assumption that Ixion/Vermy + Sublimation is more effective over time than Scholar's Mortarboard + Sublimation.


How exactly did you arrive at that assumption?
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#23 Jun 19 2009 at 5:57 AM Rating: Decent
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Acturus wrote:
Tyjet wrote:
I was under the assumption that Ixion/Vermy + Sublimation is more effective over time than Scholar's Mortarboard + Sublimation.


How exactly did you arrive at that assumption?


THAT assumption is correct. It's also a moot point when the SCH receives Argute gown.

Gerkin, during my 30 seconds of downtime, I give up a possible 40 MP. Refresh, however, would cost that RDM 40 MP every cast.

That's 40 MP spent for 150 gained. My sublimation gives me 240 MP. That's 240 MP gained with no MP spent. In order to match the MP gained by sublimation, I would have to take 2 refreshs. That would be 300 MP gained and 80 MP spent. I'm usually not main healing... RDMs handle that *unless it's something a WHM needs to handle*. If a RDM is main healing and you take his MP because you're too princess to use your own MP restoring ability, you should be kicked in your empty ballsack.

At least you didn't argue stoneskin cost, however...
#24 Jun 19 2009 at 9:14 AM Rating: Default
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You are not listening. If the RDM isnt having MP issues casting refresh on yourself then there is no math about how much mp it gives you vs sublimation, because its constant. Its simply 3mp a tick non stop with at the most 5 seconds of downtime in between casts, with instantly accessible, usable MP as its ticking. At least listen to my point before jumping on the bandwagon and saying stupid ethug sh*t like "makes me cry" or "kicked in ur empty ballsack" or whatever, you may sound cool to the other bandwagon scholars but you sound like a @#%^ing idiot otherwise.

again, IF THE RDM NEVER RUNS INTO MP ISSUES ITS A MOOT POINT ON MP COST, i cant stress that enough. IM A RDM, ITS MY MAIN JOB, I REFRESH SCHOLARS. Theres nothing "Princess" about it, its not hypocritical, its just MY PREFERENCE, and thats all i said it was. I really dont care how you spend your days playing scholar because the difference is minor, but quit flying off the handle every time someone says they play a little different than you.

Banggugyangu wrote:
Gerkin, during my 30 seconds of downtime, I give up a possible 40 MP. Refresh, however, would cost that RDM 40 MP every cast.

That's 40 MP spent for 150 gained. My sublimation gives me 240 MP. That's 240 MP gained with no MP spent. In order to match the MP gained by sublimation, I would have to take 2 refreshs. That would be 300 MP gained and 80 MP spent. I'm usually not main healing... RDMs handle that *unless it's something a WHM needs to handle*. If a RDM is main healing and you take his MP because you're too princess to use your own MP restoring ability, you should be kicked in your empty ballsack.


Edit to touch on this. You do realize your RDM is probably hasting and refreshing everyone in that party. YOU SHOULD BE MAIN HEALING, because about 60% of the time the RDM is gonna be midcast when someone needs a cure, casting haste or refresh. A good RDM can keep up without issue, with a scholar backup they shouldnt have to. What the **** are you doing on scholar if your in a pt with rdm, and hes doing all the healing? Of course youd think your MP isnt worth ****, cuz it sounds like with you playing, it isnt. My RDM never has MP issues, my scholar does. Does that mean that the 80 MP the rdm casts on me (which doesnt ever run him out of MP) is worth the scholar having MP on tap at all times without using a ******** ability to get the same effect and worrying about curing himself etc so he can be on point for status effects and curing. ******************

Edited, Jun 19th 2009 10:20am by Gerkin
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#25 Jun 19 2009 at 1:44 PM Rating: Default
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"My RDM never has MP issues, my scholar does"

"a bullsh*t ability"


You make me cry.
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#26 Jun 21 2009 at 4:16 PM Rating: Decent
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Gerkin wrote:
At least listen to my point before jumping on the bandwagon and saying stupid ethug sh*t like "makes me cry" or "kicked in ur empty ballsack" or whatever, you may sound cool to the other bandwagon scholars but you sound like a @#%^ing idiot otherwise.


What are you talking about? If anyone here is acting like a butthurt e-thug it's you. Not once have I used a censored word on this topic; you're the only one who has done as such.

Quote:
IF THE RDM NEVER RUNS INTO MP ISSUES ITS A MOOT POINT ON MP COST


If you care to read my post; MP cost is not the only thing you're depriving said RDM. Casting times and focus are probably way more important to a good rdm than MP.

And not only did you fail to address this point; but you even added more fuel to it on your next remark:

Quote:
YOU SHOULD BE MAIN HEALING, because about 60% of the time the RDM is gonna be midcast when someone needs a cure, casting haste or refresh.


Maybe you should stop being so adamant about refreshing the scholar then? hmmm...

And I don't know you; but I've never been in a situation where I have a good RDM in my party as a SCH where I'm also forced to "Main" heal.

Quote:
A good RDM can keep up without issue, with a scholar backup they shouldnt have to. What the **** are you doing on scholar if your in a pt with rdm, and hes doing all the healing?


If your RDM can keep up without issues; then why on the world would you have the SCH heal when it can do better things with their time/MP.

You also fail to realize that refreshing the SCH then asking him to heal with the MP he leeched off you is both redundant and pointless.

Quote:
Of course youd think your MP isnt worth ****, cuz it sounds like with you playing, it isnt.


Actually, it sounds like you think your MP isn't worth anything. I value my MP both as a SCH and a RDM. And I can guarantee you that using Sublimation + Refresh will net a larger MP available on both jobs than using double Refresh.


Quote:
a bullsh*t ability to get the same effect and worrying about curing himself etc so he can be on point for status effects and curing.


Please quit SCH. You're a disgrace to the job. I can't even believe you said "Worring about curing himself" when a SCH should always have SS up. Nor I can believe you called it a ******** ability. Seriously; just quit.

And while we're at it: stop wasting MP as a RDM as well. Just because you're not having MP issues doesn't mean you're being efficient nor helpful. Nuke more, enfeeble more, cure outside people.
Heck; even hasting the SCH is a better use the MP and/or time than refreshing him.


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#27 Jun 22 2009 at 6:13 AM Rating: Decent
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Drakonite wrote:

You do realize you're essentially making the RDM spend 40MP so you so you can get the equivalent of a 1HP/Tick regen, yes?


Wrong.
You're losing 4HP per tic with sublimation with AF hat and relic body. You're gaining 1HP per tic with ixion cloak and refresh. The net effect is that you're gaining 5HP per tic.

Now, if you take into account that in the duration of refresh (2:30, or 190 seconds) you'd have to cast regen, which lasts 75 seconds, (190/75 = 2.5) 2.5 times, you're spending (15*2.5 = 38) 38 MP. So overall you're losing 2 MP from having refresh and ixion instead of sublimation and AF hat/relic body. If you take into account that you can rest without casting stoneskin if you use the refresh/cloak option there's a pretty clear winner on the MP front.

Edit: However, you'd probably have stoneskin up in most situations anyway, so you can't really factor that in (you'd be AOEing it if you're main healing and keeping it up for safety in solo). However, you're still only 2MP down from using refresh AND you have to factor in how sublimation will stop if you drop below 50% HP.

tl;dr no clear winner.

Edited, Jun 22nd 2009 10:22am by Innuendoze
#28 Jun 22 2009 at 7:01 AM Rating: Good
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Innuendoze wrote:
Drakonite wrote:

You do realize you're essentially making the RDM spend 40MP so you so you can get the equivalent of a 1HP/Tick regen, yes?


Wrong.
You're losing 4HP per tic with sublimation with AF hat and relic body. You're gaining 1HP per tic with ixion cloak and refresh. The net effect is that you're gaining 5HP per tic.

Now, if you take into account that in the duration of refresh (2:30, or 190 seconds) you'd have to cast regen, which lasts 75 seconds, (190/75 = 2.5) 2.5 times, you're spending (15*2.5 = 38) 38 MP. So overall you're losing 2 MP from having refresh and ixion instead of sublimation and AF hat/relic body. If you take into account that you can rest without casting stoneskin if you use the refresh/cloak option there's a pretty clear winner on the MP front.

Edit: However, you'd probably have stoneskin up in most situations anyway, so you can't really factor that in (you'd be AOEing it if you're main healing and keeping it up for safety in solo). However, you're still only 2MP down from using refresh AND you have to factor in how sublimation will stop if you drop below 50% HP.

tl;dr no clear winner.


If you can't factor in Stoneskin, why are you factoring in Regen?
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#29 Jun 22 2009 at 8:53 AM Rating: Decent
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Acturus wrote:

If you can't factor in Stoneskin, why are you factoring in Regen?


Because you'd only have to cast regen for the sublimation option, whereas you'd probably have stoneskin up in all situations.

Edited, Jun 22nd 2009 12:53pm by Innuendoze
#30 Jun 22 2009 at 10:18 AM Rating: Decent
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Stoneskin isn't factored because if SCH is healing and stoneskining the tank party, then they'll have stoneskin up full time whether they want to or not. And if they're getting their nuke on, they need stoneskin up every bit as much as the blms do. Now, their sublimation means their stoneskin will break more often when they get hit by AoEs. But, it's complicated to try to quantify that, so just forget about it.

Obviously what you use is situational. But I do wonder what all of you scholars do. I know what good scholars do in good shells. They're main healing / stoneskinga for the tank party. Or they're nuking and weathering the blms. In either case, sch gear selection is **** poor. Not being a sch myself, but being a whm and blm...there's no way you don't buff and heal in your Ixion Cloak if you have it, its going to add like 40 HP to your stoneskin over gown + mortarboard. Nuking? Ixion still probably best, AF2 gown + AF1 mortarboard = gross. At least you have some int on there. Even using fastcast charges on your nukes, each nuke is going to lose you 1-2 ticks. AoE stoneskin will lose you 5 ticks. Healing too, only cure V, and plus, who gives a smeg. Now if you're nuking though, the rdm is probably overworked from casting 5 refreshes, so yeah, leave him be, so who cares if you save a couple MP, have mercy on him. Gerkin doesn't get to nuke on SCH though, because he can just bring his blm if we don't need a sch in the tank party...

It doesn't take more than casting a few spells per refresh cycle to kill any alleged advantage. One AoE buff, that's 5 extra MP sacrificed on the sublimation altar. It adds up. Whether you're nuking or your healing and buffing, you should be doing gear swaps, and those will hurt your ticks.

Also, don't forget that every second you forget to eat your MP tank, and every second you forget to turn sublimation back on, you're hemorrhaging 4 MP a tick. (3 if you're macros swap your body piece to a refresh piece) You really riding those timers to the microsecond? And yet still managing to pay attention to healing and status cures and AoE buff rotations? That's highly impressive, are you some sort of robot? If so what other powers do you have? And do you use them for good, or for awesome? Threatening bloody vengeance on Allakhazam of all places, because somebody doesn't play like you, that counts as neither good nor awesome, I'm sorry to inform you.

Having the rdm refresh you costs him at most 40 MP, a fair ways less than 40 on average thanks to conserve MP. Meanwhile, it saves you easily 40 MP unless you're swapping in Cloak between sublimation, AND you have robotic concentration and never miss a second between eating your MP charge the instant its full, or between restarting sublimation once you can. And yes, transferring X MP from the rdm, in exchange for > X MP on the sch, is a fair trade. What would the rdm do with it? Cure? The SCH can cover cures just one time per cycle, just one cure III the rdm doesn't cast and the rdm comes out ahead on MP, as does the sch, and everybody wins. He can even make that one cure happen while the rdm is casting refresh, then there, you're other hilariously stupid problem is solved (tanks die every time your failmage tries to cast refresh somebody). Even if it was a straight conversion of 40 mp for 40 MP...here's a PSA "I'm a redmage, I can use convert, you can't, so play safe".

He's not saying you're bad for using sublimation, he's saying they're probably equal, and he has a personal preference. You're saying any deviation from the bandwagon should be punished by lynching, and you're swearing bloody vengeance on him, howling at the moon with blood curdling fury. How dare he take a refresh and gain some MP, when he can gain almost as much by using a JA, he just has to use a bot to make sure he doesn't waste any sublimation ticks! How DARE he. Like he's dragging your job into the mud, when in fact, he's an endgame scholar, he convinces endgame shells to use it for endgame activities, and it holds its own. That must anger you, to think that some shells don't think sch is the ********* job in the game, how badly he has harmed you. I can see why you're so outraged and frothing at the mouth. We take scholars to Odin and other serious fights. The SCH and WHMs are always running on empty, I have to SV Ballad them near the end to keep them curing and suchlike. The rdms have to convert near the end, but by the end of the fight they're still sitting on half of their newly converted MP pool. To suggest that those 40 MP to keep the scholars focused on their JOBS is going to break their MP balance is beyond laughable. To suggest that the tanks would die because the backup healer is casting one extra refresh is even worse.
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#31 Jun 22 2009 at 11:12 AM Rating: Good
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Innuendoze wrote:
Acturus wrote:

If you can't factor in Stoneskin, why are you factoring in Regen?


Because you'd only have to cast regen for the sublimation option, whereas you'd probably have stoneskin up in all situations.


We're ignoring Stoneskin because it negates the HP loss associated with Sublimation.

If Stoneskin is "up all the time," why exactly does a SCH need to cast Regen on himself?
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#32 Jun 22 2009 at 11:14 AM Rating: Good
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Rofl..

Love how topics always stray away from the OP topic.

For Dark ixion's cloak, I completely agree it does have its uses and can help get you out of a pinch or keep mp topped off while traveling. Is it game breaking, not even close. But it does add to your efficiency.

As for the argument between Naobi and Banggu about traveling to Ulli. (i realize its a burried topic now and gerkin's ignorant comments deserve much more attention >.>) I'm personally along the same lines as Naobi. Theirs no reason to cast more magic than needed when surrounded by magic agro mobs. I know you said that..
Quote:
If you can't maneuver sky without agroing via casting *while still casting the same spells you would anywhere else*, then please practice until you can.

Would the same point be true that if you know what your doing the need for SS is moot?

anyways. On to gerkin...

Assuming your main healing and you have that rdm in your pt. s/he is likely doing full haste and refresh rotations, right? At least by your description of a good rdm, on top of that he should be doing ALL the enfeebs, as well as back up healing. So all the sch is doing is healing? Where as the rdm is allegedly doing quadruple the work? If this rdm is doing SOOoooo much work, why would you seriously want to impose more work on them? Especially considering that your doing jack sh*t.

This is the point everyone is making. To pull more from the rdm is taking away their attention to other things they could be doing.. OR!! actually evening out the amount of effort your both doing.

Do find it funny how much you glorify Rdm. Yes, i have a respect for the job and give it props where its due. But you seem to believe that it pulls so vastly ahead of sch, if at all. Besides DoT kiting and higher enfeeb skill, it really has no advantage.


Their is a time to receive refresh, but those instances are very far inbetween.

Ex. Yesterday we did Early Bird, once the Wyrm takes flight keeping HP high enough to keep sublimation up can be troublesome. So once he takes flight i request refresh until it comes down. At that point its back to sublimation.

You can play anyway you want to play. But dont go preaching "Bandwagon" this and "Bandwagon" that, when its got nothing to do with bandwagons, but rather self efficiency and relieving stress of others.
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#33 Jun 22 2009 at 12:26 PM Rating: Good
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Quote:
Obviously what you use is situational. But I do wonder what all of you scholars do. I know what good scholars do in good shells. They're main healing / stoneskinga for the tank party. Or they're nuking and weathering the blms. In either case, sch gear selection is **** poor. Not being a sch myself, but being a whm and blm...there's no way you don't buff and heal in your Ixion Cloak if you have it, its going to add like 40 HP to your stoneskin over gown + mortarboard. Nuking? Ixion still probably best, AF2 gown + AF1 mortarboard = gross. At least you have some int on there. Even using fastcast charges on your nukes, each nuke is going to lose you 1-2 ticks. AoE stoneskin will lose you 5 ticks.

Ixion Cloak can be replaced with Errant body and Errant hat for the purpose of stoneskin.

Also, if you're nuking, you should be in AF body because it gives you +15 Elemental skill while under the effects of Dark Arts.

Scholar can also do more than what you give them credit for.

Edit: lolol I said skillchains instead of stoneskin. D:

Edited, Jun 22nd 2009 3:42pm by Tyjet
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#34 Jun 22 2009 at 1:03 PM Rating: Excellent
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StubbyStumps wrote:
So I'm looking ahead to the future, and I wonder about DI's Cloak, it seems to me like it could have some potential in stats, but it could just as easily be a more expensive Vermy with regen on it. So is the cloak just a more expensive enhanced vermy useful when you're idling and not expecting to be hit, or does it have applications for nuking and/or enfeebling?


I figure I'll put in my opinion on Ixion Cloak.

It gives +13 INT/MND, Refresh, Regen, and MACC +5. These are the only stats I find useful for SCH. Its a nice well rounded body piece and that's where it ends for me.

Ok I want some INT? Errant Body + Scholar's M.board = 14 INT
So if I'm after decent INT amount Ixion loses.

Ok I want some MND? Errant Body + Goliard Chapeau/Argute M.board = 15 MND
Those are a bit harder to come by for some so Errant Body + Head = 13 MND
So if I'm after decent MND amount Ixion loses or at best matches cheaper alternatives.

Ok so I want some Refresh Armor? Vermillion does the same thing.
So if I'm after Refresh Armor, Vermillion does the same thing but at 25-30% of the cost and can be used 16 levels earlier.

Ok so now I want some MACC? Scholar's Gown = +15 Elemental/Enfeebling/Dark Skill
Well Scholar's Gown alone gives me 10 more MACC while in dark arts. So unless you enfeeble in Light Arts where this actually beats any other combos.
For me this is moot because I don't enfeeble past Dia II in Light Arts.

Ok so what's left? Regen.
There is no other body a SCH can use that gives you Regen Effect. So Ixion wins hands down here. My problem is I tend to full time Stoneskin which means the Regen is negated, so this isn't really a win for me.

Bottom line, Ixion Cloak can be beat or matched by other relatively easy and cheaper gear with the exception of enfeebling in Light Arts and the Regen it gives. Is that worth 2mil(Bismarck) to you? It isn't to me.

Oh I almost forgot the argument but what if you just want a well rounded body? I don't skimp on the gear I bring to exp or events. That means I'd still have everything else with me for some reason or another.

Edited, Jun 22nd 2009 2:06pm by Zagen
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#35 Jun 22 2009 at 5:16 PM Rating: Default
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If there's anything ******** about Sublimation, it's the fact that it won't stack with Refresh but stacks just fine with Ballad/Evoker's.

Yes, I'm always going to hate that until they change it, which I'm sure they never will, but I dun care.
#36 Jun 22 2009 at 9:35 PM Rating: Decent
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Zaredx wrote:
Not being a sch myself, but being a whm and blm...there's no way you don't buff and heal in your Ixion Cloak if you have it, its going to add like 40 HP to your stoneskin over gown + mortarboard.

Ridiculous. You have macros for a reason. Macro in Errant/Mahatma for body and relic/Errant/Mahatma for head when casting SS. Why would you assume that a well-geared SCH would be incompetent and cast in the gear you listed? Is that what you would do? I have to assume so, which almost negates anything further you suggest.
Zaredx wrote:
Nuking? Ixion still probably best, AF2 gown + AF1 mortarboard = gross. At least you have some int on there. Even using fastcast charges on your nukes, each nuke is going to lose you 1-2 ticks.

Wrong. Absolutely wrong. I nuke in AF body/Errant body and AF+1/relic mortarboards, depending on the situation. Resist rates determine how I mix and match. Regardless, I out-class Ixion.

There are instances when it's useful, sure, but it's not worth its price tag. It's not doing much more than a vermy.

But I have a question:
Zaredx wrote:
Or they're nuking and weathering the blms.

Do other SCHs do this? When I'm doing a LS event, I commit to one Art or the other, more or less. I'm either Dark or Light, so I don't hop back and forth too often(unless there's an emergency of some sort). Do you guys Stormsurge the BLMs and then swap back over to nuke? Is their 7 INT and storm effect going to do more for the group than the extra nukes you can churn out with double the strategem charges available to you? I'm just curious.

Edited, Jun 23rd 2009 12:36am by order
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#37 Jun 22 2009 at 10:45 PM Rating: Good
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Quote:
Do other SCHs do this? When I'm doing a LS event, I commit to one Art or the other, more or less. I'm either Dark or Light, so I don't hop back and forth too often(unless there's an emergency of some sort). Do you guys Stormsurge the BLMs and then swap back over to nuke? Is their 7 INT and storm effect going to do more for the group than the extra nukes you can churn out with double the strategem charges available to you? I'm just curious.


I'm the same, and I've had some people gripe at me over it. From the enmity perspective, me minimizing their damage either through the slight INT boost or forcing Obi procs can mean whether or not a mob turns from our tanks and either kills the BLM or puts a dent in the rest of our alliance. And short of good MBs, me using some Parsimony'd T4s would match or exceed their added damage for close to the same MP cost.

Though, the one time I may willingly swap around is if I'm main healing Dynamis and a pack of aspirable mobs are slept together. Low MP? Not anymore~
#38 Jun 23 2009 at 5:10 AM Rating: Excellent
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Seriha wrote:
Quote:
Do other SCHs do this? When I'm doing a LS event, I commit to one Art or the other, more or less. I'm either Dark or Light, so I don't hop back and forth too often(unless there's an emergency of some sort). Do you guys Stormsurge the BLMs and then swap back over to nuke? Is their 7 INT and storm effect going to do more for the group than the extra nukes you can churn out with double the strategem charges available to you? I'm just curious.


I'm the same, and I've had some people gripe at me over it. From the enmity perspective, me minimizing their damage either through the slight INT boost or forcing Obi procs can mean whether or not a mob turns from our tanks and either kills the BLM or puts a dent in the rest of our alliance. And short of good MBs, me using some Parsimony'd T4s would match or exceed their added damage for close to the same MP cost.

Though, the one time I may willingly swap around is if I'm main healing Dynamis and a pack of aspirable mobs are slept together. Low MP? Not anymore~


I'm in the same boat. Not to demonize those SCHs who remain versatile in the middle of events, but the overwhelming majority of events that players engage in pigeon-hole jobs into roles. We have three SCHs in my Dynamis shell, I am perma-Light Arts because I have the best cure setup (and we're usually short healers), and the other two are perma-Dark Arts because their nuking setups are nearly on par with our BLMs. That's not to say they won't swap to Light Arts here and there, or that I won't swap over myself, but generally speaking, we're pegged into roles because it helps the overall fluidity of the run.

Like everything else in FFXI, you're either adequate at everything, or good at one thing.
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#39 Jun 23 2009 at 7:50 AM Rating: Excellent
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Quote:
Do other SCHs do this? When I'm doing a LS event, I commit to one Art or the other, more or less. I'm either Dark or Light, so I don't hop back and forth too often(unless there's an emergency of some sort). Do you guys Stormsurge the BLMs and then swap back over to nuke? Is their 7 INT and storm effect going to do more for the group than the extra nukes you can churn out with double the strategem charges available to you? I'm just curious.


Typically; switching is only in cycles. In this example, switching Arts and doing AoE weathers every 3 minutes costs 2 stratagems (One for Accession, one to get Add:Black back).

If you have 3-5 BLM's in your party; then doing AoE will usually be more MP efficient. And of course, 10% damage (On top of Stormsurge's bonus) on each will do more total damage than keeping your stratagems to yourself.
Doing this cycle is also nice to recast Light-based buffs (Stoneskin, Blink) instead of casting them in dark arts; so that's another small plus.

If you have like only 2 BLM's in your party; just single target them in Dark Arts.

Quote:
And short of good MBs, me using some Parsimony'd T4s would match or exceed their added damage for close to the same MP cost.


This is nothing short of delusion. 2 Parsimony's is the equivalent of a free nuke.
1 nuke every 3 minutes cycle will not outdo an extra 10% (+ Stormsurge) on 4-5 members for the whole 3 minutes duration.
Each BLM only needs to cast an aproximate of 2 nukes every 3 minutes to match or outdo self-stratagems. Everything else is added damage.

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#40 Jun 23 2009 at 8:46 AM Rating: Decent
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and the other two are perma-Dark Arts because their nuking setups are nearly on par with our BLMs.


Not to take anything away from scholars potential, but gear choices arent the best. If their nuking setup is anywhere close to your blms, you need new blms.
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#41 Jun 23 2009 at 10:06 AM Rating: Good
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Gerkin wrote:
Quote:
and the other two are perma-Dark Arts because their nuking setups are nearly on par with our BLMs.


Not to take anything away from scholars potential, but gear choices arent the best. If their nuking setup is anywhere close to your blms, you need new blms.


This is pretty harsh. The BLMs mentioned might not be dedicated BLMs, not hardcore BLMs, or the events the LS does doesn't benefit BLM much.

To say a BLM is gimp because a SCH is getting close to their damage is ignorant, the difference is BLM/RDM has +2INT and +12MAB over a SCH/RDM at base stats. Now you could say well BLM has better gear options and that is somewhat true, they get Morrigan's Set, Z. Mitts +1, and Sorcerer's ring but that's where it ends when you take into account +MAB Redingote beats NQ Weskit.

Discounting Morrigan's for your Average BLM, and lets give them Z.Mitts+1(to be really nice) and Sorc Ring That means they have +3 MAB over a SCH using Ebullience and the SCH will have +3INT over the BLM so you can see where it gets real close.

Edit: I forgot BLM gets the JSE Ammo so they can do 10% more damage for 4 minutes out of every 30 minutes. Assuming they get the drop every week, which is a big assumption since the drop rate is low.

Edited, Jun 23rd 2009 11:17am by Zagen
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#42 Jun 23 2009 at 10:40 AM Rating: Decent
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order wrote:

Wrong. Absolutely wrong. I nuke in AF body/Errant body and AF+1/relic mortarboards, depending on the situation. Resist rates determine how I mix and match.


Zagen wrote:
Gerkin wrote:
Quote:
and the other two are perma-Dark Arts because their nuking setups are nearly on par with our BLMs.


Not to take anything away from scholars potential, but gear choices arent the best. If their nuking setup is anywhere close to your blms, you need new blms.


This is pretty harsh. The BLMs mentioned might not be dedicated BLMs, not hardcore BLMs, or the events the LS does doesn't benefit BLM much.

To say a BLM is gimp because a SCH is getting close to their damage is ignorant, the difference is BLM/RDM has +2INT and +12MAB over a SCH/RDM at base stats. Now you could say well BLM has better gear options and that is somewhat true, they get Morrigan's Set, Z. Mitts +1, and Sorcerer's ring but that's where it ends when you take into account +MAB Redingote beats NQ Weskit.

Discounting Morrigan's for your Average BLM, and lets give them Z.Mitts+1(to be really nice) and Sorc Ring That means they have +3 MAB over a SCH using Ebullience and the SCH will have +3INT over the BLM so you can see where it gets real close.

Edit: I forgot BLM gets the JSE Ammo so they can do 10% more damage for 4 minutes out of every 30 minutes. Assuming they get the drop every week, which is a big assumption since the drop rate is low.

Edited, Jun 23rd 2009 11:17am by Zagen


Against anything worthwhile, he even said he casts in a full elemental skill build. If Ele skill build scholars are matching the blms for damage, the blms need to work harder.
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#43 Jun 23 2009 at 11:01 AM Rating: Good
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Gerkin wrote:
Against anything worthwhile, he even said he casts in a full elemental skill build. If Ele skill build scholars are matching the blms for damage, the blms need to work harder.

I respond to a comment about how SCH gets "not the best" gear choices and you retort with he said in full elemental skill... reread what you quoted from, it doesn't mention the 2 perma-Dark Arts SCHs are using full elemental sets.

What is worthwhile to you? To me Dynamis, Sky(no Kirin), random NMs, lesser HNMs, and to a lesser extent Puddings since I exp on them are "worthwhile" and in all 3 of those cases I can match most of the BLMs and beat out a few of them. Don't get me wrong I still lose by a good amount to a pimped out Morrigan's BLM but that's about what it takes to beat me by a decent margin(100+ damage).

The only thing a SCH will lose out by a large margin on assuming both SCH and BLM have decent gear is against CoP Wyrms or anything that a 320/120 or 330/130 builds are suggested to have.

Edit: I don't have Sea yet but I'm working on that so to that I'll add Sea and Limbus to my "worthwhile" list, neither of which is something where a SCH needs a full elemental set to preform as a nuker.

Edited, Jun 23rd 2009 12:04pm by Zagen
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#44 Jun 23 2009 at 11:14 AM Rating: Decent
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Gerkin wrote:
Quote:
and the other two are perma-Dark Arts because their nuking setups are nearly on par with our BLMs.


Not to take anything away from scholars potential, but gear choices arent the best. If their nuking setup is anywhere close to your blms, you need new blms.


Hm... I tend to do things w/ some of the best geared BLMs you'll ever find. I generally end up being around the top of all magic parses for all events. Albeit, I am nearly at the pinnacle of a specific damage build that I'm finding more and more to be the supreme selection for a SCH.

I like that you called me bandwagon, seeing as how I was one of the first level 75 SCHs. If anything, I drove a wagon that others decided they should jump on because they saw it was heading somewhere good.

Let me say this: if I'm in a party with a RDM, the RDM is main healing. This isn't to say that RDM either is better at main healing than SCH or has less to do, because neither of those are necessarily true *though neither is the inverse*. I'm simply saying that if I'm in a meripo, there's no RDM. If I'm in an end-game event of some sorts, then I'm focusing on maximizing both my own and the damage of all the BLMs in my PT.

On the note of switching arts, I find it most beneficial and efficient to poll your BLMs about which obis they have. I follow a strict rule of "No obi = No Weather". Sea is a requirement of the LS and not having obis on a BLM is either bad luck or laziness *usually the latter*. Because of this, I rarely switch arts as I usually cast 2 hailstorms and 2 thunderstorms. One hailstorm is on myself.

PT structure for end-game is generally BLMx2-3 SCHx1-2 RDMorBRD and COR. If there are 2 SCHs, each hailstorms himself and then tackles a BLM *generally thunderstorm*. If 2 SCHs, alternating klimaform for high-resist mobs is very effective. *I prefer to ditch all stratagems except alacrity during klimaform simply for raw damage output.*

For flan-a-burns: If I'm in a PT w/ BLMs, my tier 4 spells match some of the best BLMs you'll have ever seen. A recent one with a BLM using top-notch gear *including novio* compared unresisted damage on bliz 4 to be me losing out by 8 damage. If you're going to argue that he needs better gear, you're foolish, because BLM gear doesn't really get much better than what he had to offer.

Gerkin, you're going to be very offended by my next statement, but frankly, I don't care. You may cry a little; might cut yourself some, but in the end, you'll realize that this is a game and it doesn't matter that someone ****** you off a bit. The statements you've made in this thread make it obvious to me that you fail at SCH. It seems that in your eyes, SCH is basically a RDM with a couple different toys to play with. Perhaps yours is indeed just that. I myself made my SCH into something more, as did many others who have posted here. Don't generalize me into the same bowl of suck that you're swimming in.
#45 Jun 23 2009 at 11:44 AM Rating: Default
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Banggugyangu wrote:
The statements you've made in this thread make it obvious to me that you fail at SCH. It seems that in your eyes, SCH is basically a RDM with a couple different toys to play with. Perhaps yours is indeed just that. I myself made my SCH into something more, as did many others who have posted here. Don't generalize me into the same bowl of suck that you're swimming in.


I said that. Look at my job list, if im on sch or rdm im a healer, if it calls for a nuker im on blm. I never said otherwise. In fact, my only statement was that i prefer ixi cloak and refresh from rdm, because my scholar is VERY focused as a backup to a red mage in a tank party. If im on scholar its either /drk the one time we fought PW for aoe stunning lamps, or as a /Na mage, curing the rest of the time. Thats why its 75, fills in the tiny gap i have between rdm and blm. You can critique me all you want, or use all ur funny little internet lines, but the fact is, you're just mad that i play the job different than you, that i didnt jump on the bandwagon, and flip out on anyone that mentions anything different than how i play. I didnt say you were wrong for using sublimation, i just said i prefer it my way, and i only play with people in my LS, and none of the RDMs have any issue, or gripe with refreshing me. So what does it really matter? If you dont agree, do i have to hear about it?
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#46 Jun 23 2009 at 12:03 PM Rating: Good
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It was a figure of speech. I was thinking Dynamis, which is hardly a test of skill builds. Yes, I'm sure our BLMs nuke the pants off our SCHs, but I don't care because I filter everyone's damage except my own. Blame my melee ways.
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#47 Jun 23 2009 at 12:06 PM Rating: Excellent
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Ridiculous. You have macros for a reason. Macro in Errant/Mahatma for body and relic/Errant/Mahatma for head when casting SS. Why would you assume that a well-geared SCH would be incompetent and cast in the gear you listed? Is that what you would do? I have to assume so, which almost negates anything further you suggest.


I'm saying you should be swapping gear in order to cast your spells...and if you are swapping gear out, you're going to be missing ticks of your sublimation while you cast, so you can't run numbers assuming you are full timing your sublimation gear, since you'd have to be dumb to do so. I should have been more clear, when I said "No way you don't buff in your Ixion Cloak if you have it" I also meant to imply "Or Errant otherwise". You apparently have taken it as "Since you're not swapping in stoneskin gear, it's better to be full timing Ixion Cloak instead of Sublimation gear", which is not what I was saying at all. I'm saying that since you're swapping in MND gear, you're going to lose those ticks while its casting. Now of course, none of those points of MP really matter...you'll never see a SCH struggle because they lost those ticks of sublimation/refresh while they were buffing. But I've never seen a RDM struggle when Princess Gerkin makes it so they have to refresh 4 people instead of 3, so there you go I guess? It's all horribly pointless and I don't see why you're all getting so mad about it.

And anyways, as an FYI, a hume SCH/RDM with semi-decent gear can easily reach the stoneskin cap, you don't need Goliard Head + Mahatma Body do to it. Ixion, or NQ Errant head+body, AF legs, Errant Feet, NQ water staff, P.Rope, even +3 MND rings, that'll get you to the cap. Throw a rainbow cape on and a strap and upgrade your rings, you can even make the 380 cap for a stone gorget. It'll be costly one way or the other to reach the 410 cap for gorget + mufflers, but I think that's pretty uncommon, to have a tank with both coordinating with a scholar to swap gear in when the sch gives them stoneskin. If it happens, that's impressive, though I'm not entirely sure it's worth the effort on the PLDs part!

As for nuking, I thought 1 or 2 int for 5 m.acc was a decent trade, if you're not going full out m.acc or full out int. If I'm wrong and there is no middle ground on damage vs. accuracy then fine, I'm not a scholar I wouldn't know, but my point wasn't that you should nuke in Ixion Cloak no matter what, it was that you should never nuke in Argute Gown. That is, just reinforcing that no matter what role you are playing, you will be doing gear swaps.

Finally, I'm also not saying it's worth the money, because it's a rip off for what it gives you. But if you're in an HNMLS, you probably can get one for points, instead of 10 bajillion gil. In that case, the extra MP in a party situation seems pretty decent for a week or two worth of points, considering it's reasonably close to the best you can nuke with in situations where you don't need to cap out your acc, and it's certainly going to cap your stoneskin out. It'll also be better to cure in, by the way. Sure, your errant + goliard has more MND, but VIT is important too when casting Cure V, if not as much as MND is, take it from a whm. Probably doesn't affect Cure IV at all, but meh ;)

Edited, Jun 23rd 2009 4:16pm by Zaredx
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#48 Jun 23 2009 at 1:01 PM Rating: Good
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Acturus wrote:


We're ignoring Stoneskin because it negates the HP loss associated with Sublimation.

If Stoneskin is "up all the time," why exactly does a SCH need to cast Regen on himself?


You're quite right, I only realised this after posting that. D'oh.
#49 Jun 23 2009 at 1:21 PM Rating: Good
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Zaredx wrote:

And anyways, as an FYI, a hume SCH/RDM with semi-decent gear can easily reach the stoneskin cap, you don't need Goliard Head + Mahatma Body do to it. Ixion, or NQ Errant head+body, AF legs, Errant Feet, NQ water staff, P.Rope, even +3 MND rings, that'll get you to the cap.


Just Nitpicking but Errant Slops > AF Legs for Stoneskin because Enhancing gets divided by 3. 7 Points > 5 Points towards Stoneskin cap.
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#50 Jun 23 2009 at 1:46 PM Rating: Decent
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The bolded stuff is similar to what i was going to type before but didnt >.>

Banggugyangu wrote:
Gerkin, you're going to be very offended by my next statement, but frankly, I don't care. You may cry a little; might cut yourself some, but in the end, you'll realize that this is a game and it doesn't matter that someone ****** you off a bit. The statements you've made in this thread make it obvious to me that you fail at SCH. It seems that in your eyes, SCH is basically a RDM with a couple different toys to play with. Perhaps yours is indeed just that. I myself made my SCH into something more, as did many others who have posted here. Don't generalize me into the same bowl of suck that you're swimming in.


Rofl! ^^ I like this


Banggu and I dont seem to agree on everything, maybe its because i need to step up my "game" or maybe he's too one sided about his decisions.. But one things for sure, he reads Gerkin pretty well. Banggu from what I gather is more of a dark arts Sch, so i'm sure he can attest easily to how well we can perform. I have above average nuking gear and I already hit on par or surpass most blm's i'm with(not in all scenerios). As for healing, as far as mp efficiency goes i can easily out last rdm or whm. And the rdm's and whm's I'm comparing myself to have varying degrees of good to amazing gear.

I'll reiterate, but for the sch community as a whole!

Banggugyangu wrote:
Don't generalize me into the same bowl of suck that you're swimming in.
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#51 Jun 24 2009 at 5:25 PM Rating: Good
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ElVendi wrote:
Banggu and I dont seem to agree on everything, maybe its because i need to step up my "game" or maybe he's too one sided about his decisions.. But one things for sure, he reads Gerkin pretty well. Banggu from what I gather is more of a dark arts Sch, so i'm sure he can attest easily to how well we can perform. I have above average nuking gear and I already hit on par or surpass most blm's i'm with(not in all scenerios). As for healing, as far as mp efficiency goes i can easily out last rdm or whm. And the rdm's and whm's I'm comparing myself to have varying degrees of good to amazing gear


I am indeed a dark arts SCH. If I'm doing something *other than meripo* that requires me to be healing in some form, I'll use my WHM. As potent as my SCH happens to be at it *and quite potent it is indeed* my WHM absolutely demolishes it. For meripo, omfg SCH is fricken easy button.

For all things damage, however, I'll reiterate this while doing my best to not be a braggart. You'll be hard pressed to find a BLM that tops me. Saying that SCH's choices are abysmal is an ignorant comment. A SCH's MP pool should easily match an equally geared BLM's MP pool in damage. You just have to re-think how you gear up.

Gerkin, why not just level WHM and go /SMN? You can get more MP/sec that way and be much more potent in the main healing field.
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