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Mathmatical comparison Redingote vs MahatmaFollow

#1 Mar 26 2009 at 5:10 PM Rating: Good
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Oki, so here' s the math that i have for comparing the new augmented body armor VS Mahatma Houppelande (current most damaging scholar body piece).

_______________________________________________

Scholar tests

With Mahatma Houppelande (INT +11)

w/o uggy, obi, or food
[136(my INT) - 89 (Pudding INT) = 47] x2 + 541(thunder IV base)= 635)
MAB [1.15 (HQ staff) 1.2 (base trait) = 1.38] + .12 (mufflers, moldy, yigit boots) = 1.50]

Result: 952.5
-------------------------
/w Uggy, no obi, no food

[133(my INT) - 89 (Pudding INT) = 44] x2 + 541(thunder IV base)= 629)
MAB [1.15 (HQ staff) 1.2 (base trait) =1.38] + .20 (uggy, mufflers, moldy, yigit boots) = 1.58]


Result: 993.82
--------------------
/w uggy, /w obi,no food

[128(my INT) - 89 (Pudding INT) = 39] x2 + 541(thunder IV base)= 619)
MAB [1.15 (HQ staff) 1.2 (base trait) 1.1 obi =1.518] + .20 (uggy, mufflers, moldy, yigit boots) = 1.718]

Result: 1063.44
-------------------------
/w uggy, /w obi, /w food

[135(my INT) - 89 (Pudding INT) = 46] x2 + 541(thunder IV base)= 633)
MAB [1.15 (HQ staff) 1.2 (base trait) 1.1 obi =1.518] + .20 (uggy, mufflers, moldy, yigit boots) = 1.718]

Result: 1087.49
------------------------

*** added merited Hailstorm:

hailstorm with no uggy, no obi, no food


w/o uggy, obi, or food
[143(my INT) - 89 (Pudding INT) = 54] x2 + 541(thunder IV base)= 649)
MAB [1.15 (HQ staff) 1.2 (base trait) = 1.38] + .12 (mufflers, moldy, yigit boots) = 1.5]

Result: 973.5
-------------------------
hailstorm with uggy, obi, food


[142(my INT) - 89 (Pudding INT) = 53] x2 + 541(thunder IV base)= 647)
MAB [1.15 (HQ staff) 1.2 (base trait) 1.1 obi =1.518] + .20 (uggy, mufflers, moldy, yigit boots) = 1.718]

Result: 1111.54
______________________________________________-
With Redingote( +5 INT, +4 MAB)

w/o uggy, obi, or food
[130(my INT) - 89 (Pudding INT) = 41] x2 + 541(thunder IV base)= 623)
MAB [1.15 (HQ staff) 1.2 (base trait) = 1.38] + .16 (BODY, mufflers, moldy, yigit boots) = 1.54]

Result: 959.42
---------------------------------
/w Uggy, no obi, no food

[127(my INT) - 89 (Pudding INT) = 38] x2 + 541(thunder IV base)= 617)
MAB [1.15 (HQ staff) 1.2 (base trait) =1.38] + .24 (uggy, Body, mufflers, moldy, yigit boots) = 1.62]


Result: 999.54
---------------------------
/w uggy, /w obi, no food

[122(my INT) - 89 (Pudding INT) = 33] x2 + 541(thunder IV base)= 607)
MAB [1.15 (HQ staff) 1.2 (base trait) 1.1 obi =1.518] + .24 (Body, uggy, mufflers, moldy, yigit boots) = 1.758]

Result: 1067.10
--------------------------
/w uggy, /w obi, /w food

[129(my INT) - 89 (Pudding INT) = 40] x2 + 541(thunder IV base)= 621)
MAB [1.15 (HQ staff) 1.2 (base trait) 1.1 obi =1.518] + .24 (Body, uggy, mufflers, moldy, yigit boots) = 1.758]

Result: 1091.71

------------------------
*** added merited Hailstorm:

w/o uggy, obi, or food with hailstorm
[137(my INT) - 89 (Pudding INT) = 48] x2 + 541(thunder IV base)= 637)
MAB [1.15 (HQ staff) 1.2 (base trait) = 1.38] + .16 (BODY, mufflers, moldy, yigit boots) = 1.55]

Result: 980.98
----------------------
Hailstorm /w uggy, /w obi, /w food

[136(my INT) - 89 (Pudding INT) = 47] x2 + 541(thunder IV base)= 635)
MAB [1.15 (HQ staff) 1.2 (base trait) 1.1 obi =1.518] + .24 (Body, uggy, mufflers, moldy, yigit boots) = 1.758]

Result: 1116.33

____________________________________________________________________


Conclusion: If nothing changes from SE's current discription and allowance of us adding the 2 augmented stats that they currently say is allowed, this new body piece will trump our current most damaging body piece in every way. For all you die hard (NO BUT SCHOLARS COAT IS BETTAR!!!), yes... WHEN you are actually encountering resists.


If any errors are found, please let me know so they can be adjusted asap and made correct. Thanks for your assistance in keeping the numbers right!


Edit1: adjusted figures
Edit2: added Merited Hailstorm benefits
Edit3: Adjust figures, took out Novio MAB +7


Edited, Mar 26th 2009 6:40pm by xXxNaobixXx

Edited, Mar 26th 2009 9:34pm by xXxNaobixXx
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#2 Mar 26 2009 at 5:41 PM Rating: Good
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That is a pretty cool body piece, I actually hadn't even seen it yet. It's very nice to hear we will have an option besides Errant for nuking. I would like to point out that its not exactly our "best" nuking option on many things though, but way more balanced than Morganas.
#3 Mar 26 2009 at 6:10 PM Rating: Excellent
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Yigit Boots are MAB +2 you have them as +7

Quote:
(mufflers, moldy, yigit boots)


Mufflers: MAB +5
Moldy: MAB +5
Yigit Boots: MAB +2
Total: +12

Not +17 or 0.17

Unless you're getting MAB +5 somewhere else.

Edited, Mar 26th 2009 7:13pm by Zagen
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#4 Mar 26 2009 at 6:36 PM Rating: Decent
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Quote:
this new body piece will trump our current most damaging body piece in every way.


Not every way; it still doesn't NQ Errant for Helixes. So we can't quite get rid of Errant yet.

/nitpick

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#5 Mar 26 2009 at 8:05 PM Rating: Good
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Quote:
I would like to point out that its not exactly our "best" nuking option on many things though, but way more balanced than Morganas.



Ah yes, I always forget about Morganas, and you are absolutely correct. Over time, I have pretty much thrusted the idea of Morgana's as a viable body piece from my mind, simply due to the inconsistancy. There were too many times during testing where i'd have to take out dmg pieces for skill pieces to fight resists (something i admittedly don't like to do lol). So even though Morgana "can" outdamage mahatama, it doesn't outdamage it in the long scheme of dmg over time, thus i still consider mahatma to be on top.



Quote:
Not every way; it still doesn't NQ Errant for Helixes. So we can't quite get rid of Errant yet.

/nitpick


MAB also effects helices, and in many incstances of my tests, (uggy vs enlightened chain, or obi vs pen rope for example) the MAB did better, so it is actually quite possible that the body will even out do errant in helix dmg. but the dmg formula for helix is still rather..... "unconfirmed" of sort.

But again, this varies on many levels PER PERSON due to their specific gear setup. Either way, I still wouldn't give up Mahatma either, simply for the HMP, which scholar will never have enough of ^,^


Quote:

Mufflers: MAB +5
Moldy: MAB +5
Yigit Boots: MAB +2
Total: +12

Not +17 or 0.17

Unless you're getting MAB +5 somewhere else.


BAAAAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHH

great catch, and thank you >< this is a huge huge difference that needs to be fixed.

EDIT: figured out that the extra 7 MAB was from the Novio that I had in the equation. It has now been removed for simplicity.




Edited, Mar 26th 2009 9:50pm by xXxNaobixXx
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#6 Mar 26 2009 at 8:29 PM Rating: Good
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xXxNaobixXx wrote:
MAB also effects helices, and in many incstances of my tests, (uggy vs enlightened chain, or obi vs pen rope for example) the MAB did better, so it is actually quite possible that the body will even out do errant in helix dmg. but the dmg formula for helix is still rather..... "unconfirmed" of sort.


That's weird the only time I've noticed MAB > INT is when it was say MAB +5 vs. INT +2 both in my calculations and in practice to see how accurate the calculations are. In other words when it was more than 2 MAB per 1 INT lost. Also this is assuming you're already above the target's INT.
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#7 Mar 26 2009 at 10:25 PM Rating: Decent
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Can't we not wear morrigans...
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#8 Mar 27 2009 at 7:14 AM Rating: Good
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Quote:
Ah yes, I always forget about Morganas, and you are absolutely correct. Over time, I have pretty much thrusted the idea of Morgana's as a viable body piece from my mind, simply due to the inconsistancy. There were too many times during testing where i'd have to take out dmg pieces for skill pieces to fight resists (something i admittedly don't like to do lol). So even though Morgana "can" outdamage mahatama, it doesn't outdamage it in the long scheme of dmg over time, thus i still consider mahatma to be on top.


Like I said there are situations where Morgana's will outperform Errant. Puddings, ZNM, assault, anything below IT++, are some examples that come to mind. Since I spend 95% of me time doing things where Magic skill/acc isnt a big issue, Morganas always is in my inventory. I would never consider using it on a tough sea/sky god, or an HNM though, even with capped elemental skill merits, Hailstorm, Klimaform, and an Ice spell.

Quote:
MAB also effects helices, and in many incstances of my tests, (uggy vs enlightened chain, or obi vs pen rope for example) the MAB did better, so it is actually quite possible that the body will even out do errant in helix dmg. but the dmg formula for helix is still rather..... "unconfirmed" of sort.


Errant Hpl.: 10INT

Redingote : 5INT 4MAB

Difference: 5INT vs 4MAB

First off, please tell me you dont helix with Sea Obi on. Helix ALWAYS gets weather and day bonus even without the Sea Obis. That means by equipping them, you are missing out on 5INT from Penitent's/Argute Belt. You should go try Penitents a few times I think you will really enjoy the added 5INT.

But he is right, MAB does effect Helix, but its not enough to warrant a 4MAB -> 5/6INT trade. 1INT outshines 1MAB any day on Helix, I am almost certain that goes for any DMG level. Of course the higher you go the more of a difference you see. With my Helix, on puddings at 235ish damage without feet equipped, if I use Goliard Clogs (4INT) I get 241. If I exchange them for Yigit Crackows (3INT 2MAB) I get 242. In this situation, 2MAB barely barely trumps 1INT. I find this similarly true with Uggi vs enlightened. 3INT vs 8MAB, Uggi wins by 3dmg which I imagine shows that 2MAB is very similar to 1INT for Helix. 10INT from Errant, or 11INT from Mahatma will very easily beat 5INT 4MAB from Redingote on Helices.

I'm definately not saying this piece wont be worthy of a SCH, because I think nearly every SCH would want a body with 5INT 4MAB...I'm just pointing out that on easy mobs, I will continue to wear Morgana's because of how well its performed for myself in the past. On anything tough, hnm, sky, etc, I will continue to use AF body+1. I will definately be considering this piece for the inbetween areas where neither of those two options shine. Currently I use Yigit Gomlek and Errant for "Midnukes" such as Omega, sky trigger mobs, sea mobs, where skill isnt a huge issue but -Macc definately hurts. From the above Testing, Redingote will be a great upgrade for Midnukes for me.

#9 Mar 27 2009 at 7:08 PM Rating: Good
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Quote:
Can't we not wear morrigans...


Morrigan's Robe:
http://wiki.ffxiclopedia.org/wiki/Morrigan%27s_Robe

Correct, Scholar cannot wear this.

However, they are not talking about Morrigan's Robe.

They are taling about Morgana's Cotehardie:
http://wiki.ffxiclopedia.org/wiki/Morgana%27s_Cotehardie

Scholar can wear this.
#10 Mar 28 2009 at 1:31 AM Rating: Decent
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lol Thanks Annalise.. I was really confused why they were talking about blm stuff >.>;
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#11 Mar 28 2009 at 6:52 AM Rating: Good
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Most welcome =)
#12 Mar 28 2009 at 1:43 PM Rating: Decent
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HQ Staff isn't +15MAB, it's a 15% damage bonus.

Redoing the first calc only:

w/o uggy, obi, or food

Damage = ((136-89)x2 + 541)*1.15(HQ modifier)*(100+20(/rdm)+12(MAB Gear))/100
Damage = 963.93

(Quick Edit - I see you did it as 15% bonus, but only to the base MAB - still needs to be applied to the 12 from gear)

Edited, Mar 28th 2009 3:47pm by Radecx
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#13 Mar 29 2009 at 6:32 AM Rating: Decent
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Quote:
First off, please tell me you dont helix with Sea Obi on. Helix ALWAYS gets weather and day bonus even without the Sea Obis. That means by equipping them, you are missing out on 5INT from Penitent's/Argute Belt.


No i don't, and yes you are correct in that all helices automatically gain the day/weather bonuses without needing any obi's to proc it. It was merely a comparison of INT/MAB to show that helices are not only affected by INT.


Quote:
I'm definately not saying this piece wont be worthy of a SCH, because I think nearly every SCH would want a body with 5INT 4MAB...I'm just pointing out that on easy mobs, I will continue to wear Morgana's because of how well its performed for myself in the past. On anything tough, hnm, sky, etc, I will continue to use AF body+1. I will definately be considering this piece for the inbetween areas where neither of those two options shine. Currently I use Yigit Gomlek and Errant for "Midnukes" such as Omega, sky trigger mobs, sea mobs, where skill isnt a huge issue but -Macc definately hurts. From the above Testing, Redingote will be a great upgrade for Midnukes for me.



Ya, I agree, and i think that we're both highlighting the same similarities and agreeing on the same things, just in different ways. For me, almost all i do is "midnuke" to high, so therefore, morganas is simply not worth the inv-1, so i don't bother carrying it. I'm quite sure that given my merits and supporting gear, using a morgana's on nonresistant mobs wouldn't be a problem in the least; but again, that doesn't fall too much into my personal "category of gameplay".


Quote:
HQ Staff isn't +15MAB, it's a 15% damage bonus.

Redoing the first calc only:

w/o uggy, obi, or food

Damage = ((136-89)x2 + 541)*1.15(HQ modifier)*(100+20(/rdm)+12(MAB Gear))/100
Damage = 963.93

(Quick Edit - I see you did it as 15% bonus, but only to the base MAB - still needs to be applied to the 12 from gear)



I'm not clearly sure of what you're trying to point out here. I agree the HQ staff isn't +15 mab, but a 15% dmg bonus, hence:

Quote:
[1.15 (HQ staff) 1.2 (base trait) = 1.38]

this being shown prior to the actualy MAB via gear:
Quote:
.12 (mufflers, moldy, yigit boots) = 1.50]


Was there a mistake I made in the damage formulas? or are you reiterating/supporting and just further elaborating something I have already done?

I am, admittedly, not 100% used to using the damage formula regularly, and honestly, im feeling like im missing something because i know I do much more dmg on puddings than what comes out on paper using the formula. Thanks again for your help in making this is accurate as possible.
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#14 Mar 29 2009 at 7:51 AM Rating: Decent
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Quote:
No i don't, and yes you are correct in that all helices automatically gain the day/weather bonuses without needing any obi's to proc it. It was merely a comparison of INT/MAB to show that helices are not only affected by INT.


Ah I see, I was hoping you didn't, I just read your post to mean that on helices obi vs penitents the obi wins. Another thing, sea obis aren't exactly MAB but rather 10% increase in damage for day/weather, capping at 25% increase. That is mainly why I was wondering what you were getting at with the Obi vs Penitents. But either way you look at it, the new body piece will never be a better Helix piece than Errant, let alone Mahatma.

Anyways, I'm still torn between this piece and a THF/COR/SMN piece. Like I said before, I generally don't fight many Mid-resisting mobs so I am not sure how much use I will get out of this. Merits, some ZNM, Assault, Salvage, Einherjar, Dynamis, anything in sky that isnt a god, anything in sea that isnt JoL, and generally any mob that's soloable I prefer Morganas. Sky, some ZNM, and HNM all require 320 build so AF/AF+1 is required. I suppose situations I would use this would be limbus, soloing when I have Burn on (puddings seem to love to spam Burn, so spellcast swaps me to mid-resist, and on tougher things when I have Klimaform up (this is basically the reason I'm considering this piece).

It really is unfortunate that there are very few combos for the augment gear that will flat out trump another endgame piece. Honestly, these pieces need another option. And who knows maybe they will. Something on the lines of, 1) Choose 2 from the category they have released with the MAB, DA, DW etc AND 2) Choose 1 from another Category with options like 10-20MP, 10-20HP, 1 of any single Attribute, and maybe another few small upgrades to make these pieces more specialized the way we choose them. I don't know about you but if I could have this piece I'd be pretty excited:

30MP 5INT 5MND 4MAB 4Macc

MP on a nuking piece, not something we SCH get very often.
#15 Mar 31 2009 at 12:59 PM Rating: Decent
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Just as a check - Puddings take +64/256 magic damage, so normal nuke for 1000 does 1250 - however, the bonus from staff is applied to ALL mab, not just that from traits, which is what I was getting at.

As a sanity check one myself, I cast thunder IV 2x on the same spider just outside whitegate, once with Jupiter's Staff, once with Vulcan's (to maintain +INT from bugard+1, but having no effect on potency)

Tests done on BLM, since I can get more MAB to make the difference more notable.

Using no latent gear to ensure standard across testing.

INT: 79+50 (3 merits)
MAB: 32 (Base) + 26 + 10 (merits)

BLM/WHM

<staff> | Bugard + 1 | - | Phantom
Ree's | Prudence | Moldy | Novio
Morrigan | Morrigan | Tamas | Snow
Gleeman | Sorc. Belt | Mahatma | Yigit

ThunderIV w/ Jupiter: 1333
ThunderIV w/ Vulcan: 1160

1160*1.15 = 1334

However, the staff bonus comes into play fairly early in the equation and gets floored a few times, understandable to drop 1 damage.

Using http://bash.e3b.org/FFXIcmd/index.php backsolver to find spider int, I get ~54 for both values.

If I work forwards from 54 INT, using your formula and my stats, Jupiter's TIV should be, ignoring flooring for now:

Damage = (75*2+541)*(1.15*1.32+0.36)
Damage = 691 * (1.518+0.36) = 691*1.878 = 1297.698

The extra damage comes from 0.36 being multiplied by 1.15, for

Damage = 691 * (1.518 + 0.414) = 1335.012

For Single Target ThunderIV, assuming no MB, YourINT > TargetINT but less than undetermined breakpoint, from http://wiki.ffxiclopedia.org/wiki/Calculating_Magic_Damage :

Damage = Floor(Floor(Floor(Floor(Floor(Floor((YourINT-TargetINT)*2+541)*(Resist Multiplier))*(StaffBonus))*(DayWeatherBonus))*((100+YourMAB)/(100+TargetMDB)))*(TargetDamageAdjust))

ResistMultiplier: 1/(2^n) n = 0 for no resist, 1 for half, 2 for 1/4, etc
StaffBonus: 1.10 for matching NQ, 1.15 for HQ
DayWeatherBonus: 1.1 for Day or Single Weather, 1.2 for Day and Single Weather, 1.25 for Double Weather, 1.35 for Day+Double Weather
MAB/MDB: Self explanatory, just to note that +1 MAB != +1% damage after the first point
TargetDamageAdjust: 1+<mob adjust> - ie, +64/256 for puddings, -64/256 for Ahriman

Edit: Sentence Structure Cleanup

Edit2: Forgot Potency Merits >.>, couple more typos

Edited, Mar 31st 2009 3:01pm by Radecx

Edited, Mar 31st 2009 3:18pm by Radecx
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#16 Apr 03 2009 at 7:44 AM Rating: Decent
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xXxNaobixXx wrote:
Hailstorm /w uggy, /w obi, /w food

[136(my INT) - 89 (Pudding INT) = 47] x2 + 541(thunder IV base)= 635)
MAB [1.15 (HQ staff) 1.2 (base trait) 1.1 obi =1.518] + .24 (Body, uggy, mufflers, moldy, yigit boots) = 1.758]

Result: 1116.33


I'm just curious what you tested here. Was it supposed to be Blizzard IV, or not w/ obi, or what?
#17 Apr 03 2009 at 9:19 AM Rating: Good
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You guys would save yourself alot of trouble if you simply used this calculator.

Can easily demonstrate that Redingote beats Errant on TIV's but not on Helixes with this.
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#18 Apr 03 2009 at 9:39 AM Rating: Excellent
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Drakonite wrote:
You guys would save yourself alot of trouble if you simply used this calculator.

Some of us like to do the math ourselves. It helps us understand the "why" and "how" behind the "what".
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#19 Apr 03 2009 at 7:35 PM Rating: Decent
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Hellbringerx wrote:
I'm just curious what you tested here. Was it supposed to be Blizzard IV, or not w/ obi, or what?


Hailstorm from a fully merited-stormsurge grants +7 INT. The spell used is thunder IV, so you'd get the storm benefit of 7 INT, but NOT the obi bonus. The obi bonus displayed is if the corresponding day of the week happened to be thundersday while getting hailstorm for the INT bonus from a scholar.

Quote:
Can easily demonstrate that Redingote beats Errant on TIV's but not on Helixes with this.


Thank you for posting that!!! I've never seen that before but am very glad you put it up. I'll definitely make use of it. I did notice, however, that even with that, the numbers still don't add up to the practical numbers that show up in the game ; ; but at least the numbers are closer to the games numbers than my math was lololol So i'm obviously missing something... or a few things.


Quote:
Some of us like to do the math ourselves. It helps us understand the "why" and "how" behind the "what".


Ya, I gotta admit, I do too. I was definitely one of the "why?" kids. I always questioned authority and almost never accept something at face value until i've plucked it apart and put it back together.
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#20 Apr 06 2009 at 5:54 PM Rating: Decent
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Quote:
[1.15 (HQ staff) 1.2 (base trait) = 1.38]

this being shown prior to the actualy MAB via gear:
Quote:
.12 (mufflers, moldy, yigit boots) = 1.50]


Are you trying to say: MAB trait: +20, MAB gear: +12, HQ Staff?

In that case, it's 20+12=32; 1.32*1.15=1.518

In your calculation, you're excluding MAB gear from the staff bonus.
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