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#1 Mar 12 2009 at 4:09 AM Rating: Default
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I was invited to a lvl 54 party last night. Its 54, you fight colibri. Its not going to be great at this level, but its better than the alternative, crabs.

Party starts gathering and eventually the pld shows up and gets an invite. 10 seconds later the pld reminds everyone there is no Refresh and then disbands... I'm like sure whatever, and send the pld a tell reminding him the game isn't such serious business that refresh is a reason to leave a party. He reminds me he was defiantly going to die, I remind him I would of died first and I don't care. Thats the end of that conversation.

So we stand around 5/6 for awhile, and eventually a Ninja gets an invite. 10 seconds later the nin reminds everyone there is no Haste, but ensures everyone he is ok with that as long as we don't fight Colibri. /facepalm

Conversation ensues about crabs, and stuff... leader DCes, I wait the obligatory 10 minutes and log out.

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I've leveled enough jobs that this kind of childishness shouldn't bother me anymore. I should have just found a duo party and went and killed more pets.
#2 Mar 12 2009 at 5:19 AM Rating: Default
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No Refresh for a SCH = who cares. No refresh for a PLD = crybaby PLD.

No Haste for a melee = no epeen. No haste for a NIN = crybaby NIN.


@ least you didn't have the same experience as I had last night on DNC.... I get to a PT and the NIN expects me to tank....

...the NIN expects the DNC to tank...

so I ignore him and begin doin my curing thing... and even w/ the garbage THF giving him lol300 damage TA Dancing Edges *@ 62* I'm still pulling hate w/ minor curing to help out the RDM.

10 minutes into the PT... I decide to use a WS.... I time it so it's right after a TADE from the THF... his is 300... mine is 650..... I pull hate.... I tank the whole bird... irritating PT
#3 Mar 12 2009 at 6:14 AM Rating: Excellent
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If there is one thing, Haste to NIN is more important than PLD to have Refresh. You seem to be little overhunting, being able to keep shadows up (with Haste) will save a lot of pain. But for sure, PLD with no Refresh go Q_Q is far more unreasonable; say Hello to Sanction Refresh, Homemade Juices, and Dark Staff.

Quote:

...the NIN expects the DNC to tank...

so I ignore him and begin doin my curing thing... and even w/ the garbage THF giving him lol300 damage TA Dancing Edges *@ 62* I'm still pulling hate w/ minor curing to help out the RDM.

10 minutes into the PT... I decide to use a WS.... I time it so it's right after a TADE from the THF... his is 300... mine is 650..... I pull hate.... I tank the whole bird... irritating PT


Frankly speaking, a NIN that not willing to main tank after 37 should be warning sign that is going to be bad. You should post what gear the THF was wearing :P (it is not too difficult to do 1k+ on DE at a rather low level on birds Smiley: glare)
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#4 Mar 12 2009 at 6:10 PM Rating: Excellent
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Tanking on lolbri at 54 isn't easy. You'll whiff like crazy making holding hate quite tough. I can see where a PLD would demand refresh at that level and a ninja haste.

Plus, if he was going to "defiantly" die doesn't that mean he was simply going to die to spite the party?

Cuz if so, he wins the internet.
#5 Mar 12 2009 at 6:42 PM Rating: Decent
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Tanking on lolbri at 54 isn't easy. You'll whiff like crazy making holding hate quite tough. I can see where a PLD would demand refresh at that level and a ninja haste.

Plus, if he was going to "defiantly" die doesn't that mean he was simply going to die to spite the party?

Cuz if so, he wins the internet.


People are definitely spoiled now. Before updates, ToAU and new gear, there were a lot of parties that we didn't have red mage. We still did it with resting.

With Sanction Refresh + Parade Gorget + MP refresh from trait= 3mp/tick. There should be no complaints from paladin as that's 3 more mp/tick than he would have in a lot of his parties pre-ToAU.

Also there's dancer and /dnc with aspir samba which alleviates a lot of the healing and mp regeneration.
#6 Mar 13 2009 at 3:24 AM Rating: Good
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Quote:
Also there's dancer and /dnc with aspir samba which alleviates a lot of the healing and mp regeneration.


Sadly, that's assuming you're getting a PLD that can actually hit the mob and deal enough damage to get the Aspir effect. I was really excited by that prospect when I was leveling DNC, but I never ever partied with a PLD that was geared to DD-tank. :/
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#7 Mar 13 2009 at 3:44 AM Rating: Good
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carlcarl wrote:
People are defiantly spoiled now. Before updates, ToAU and new gear, there were a lot of parties that we didn't have red mage. We still did it with resting.


FTFY

Also, **** kids, lawn, etc. etc.

brb Ensure
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#8 Mar 13 2009 at 3:51 AM Rating: Excellent
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If I may throw in my pld opinion. As a galka, I have very little mp, enough for maybe 3 cure IIIs and a flash or reprisal(this is 68, 54 was even worse, and I have 2 mp merits) Yea, we're a bit spoiled as far as refresh compared to the plds of old(I leveled to 50 before the '05 price hike) I can manage without refresh, but I make it clear to my parties that there's no way I'll hold hate as well as I could with refresh, since the DDs these days are retarded(GO GO WS before the pld vokes!) and most healers don't give me the chance to cure for hate even when I do have refresh.

I'm not accusing you of anything, I'm just saying that you should consider both sides before you jump down a tank's throat. I love schs as main healers, phalanx is tits. Also, don't give me that darkstaff ********* I carry one around with me, but the only time I ever get a chance to use it is if someone goes afk or if there are too many parties at a camp, otherwise the pulls come in faster than I could switch to the staff, kneel for a tick or two, and get up. This also costs me my TP, and that costs me a Vorpal Blade(DD pld, not a turtle) which is annoying.

I will admit though, there are a lot of primadona plds and nins, but at 54 on birds? It's totally fair for them to expect haste/refresh, because that's over camping, and they're not gonna be able to stay alive/keep hate nearly as well w/o the buffs.
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#9 Mar 13 2009 at 5:17 AM Rating: Default
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Quote:

Sadly, that's assuming you're getting a PLD that can actually hit the mob and deal enough damage to get the Aspir effect. I was really excited by that prospect when I was leveling DNC, but I never ever partied with a PLD that was geared to DD-tank. :/


Aspir Samber only works on things with MP as well :P For commonly killed mobs for exp, only Imps, Crabs, Worms, and Beetles have MP; beastmen type mobs will depend on the beastmen job. (If I have not mistaken, Colibiri even can mimic spells, has no MP; I am going to find that out tonight when I logon, never really checked) Other commonly killed mobs: birds, crawlers, cocktrice, puk all have 0 MP.

Edited, Mar 13th 2009 9:19am by scchan
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#10 Mar 13 2009 at 5:35 AM Rating: Default
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scchan, Mercenary Major wrote:
Frankly speaking, a NIN that not willing to main tank after 37 should be warning sign that is going to be bad. You should post what gear the THF was wearing :P (it is not too difficult to do 1k+ on DE at a rather low level on birds Smiley: glare)


Yeah... I know... I was reliably dumping 1-1.2k SADEs or TADEs when I leveled THF through this part. When I didn't stack *more often than stacked* I would deal 700-800 DEs... so this was a failTHF.
#11 Mar 13 2009 at 6:02 AM Rating: Good
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scchan, Mercenary Major wrote:
Quote:

Sadly, that's assuming you're getting a PLD that can actually hit the mob and deal enough damage to get the Aspir effect. I was really excited by that prospect when I was leveling DNC, but I never ever partied with a PLD that was geared to DD-tank. :/


Aspir Samber only works on things with MP as well :P For commonly killed mobs for exp, only Imps, Crabs, Worms, and Beetles have MP; beastmen type mobs will depend on the beastmen job. (If I have not mistaken, Colibiri even can mimic spells, has no MP; I am going to find that out tonight when I logon, never really checked) Other commonly killed mobs: birds, crawlers, cocktrice, puk all have 0 MP.

Edited, Mar 13th 2009 9:19am by scchan
you can aspir any mob that is a job that can use mp. Colibris are rdms, so they're aspirable.(Imps and worms are blms, beetles and crabs are plds, there are some NM exceptions, but for regular mobs, this stands true)
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Reiterpallasch wrote:
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Am I the only one who clicked on this thread expecting actual baby photos [of Jinte]? o.O

Except if it were baby photos, it would be like looking at before and afters of Michael Jackson. Only instead of turning into a white guy, he changes into a chick!
#12 Mar 13 2009 at 6:18 AM Rating: Good
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Quote:
Quote:

Sadly, that's assuming you're getting a PLD that can actually hit the mob and deal enough damage to get the Aspir effect. I was really excited by that prospect when I was leveling DNC, but I never ever partied with a PLD that was geared to DD-tank. :/


Aspir Samber only works on things with MP as well :P For commonly killed mobs for exp, only Imps, Crabs, Worms, and Beetles have MP; beastmen type mobs will depend on the beastmen job. (If I have not mistaken, Colibiri even can mimic spells, has no MP; I am going to find that out tonight when I logon, never really checked) Other commonly killed mobs: birds, crawlers, cocktrice, puk all have 0 MP.


Yeah, I'm aware that mobs need MP to make Aspir Samba useful. Sorry, didn't make myself clear in my last post - I was replying to the OP as they specifically mentioned crabs and colibri; both of which have MP that can be Aspired.

My point was that there are still a large number of turtle-tank PLDs out there (at least in my experience). Aspir Samba is only worthwhile if the ones using MP can hit the mob and deal enough damage to get a decent return. It's a Refresh option most certainly; the problem is that it requires the frontline to have decent accuracy at the very least. In that sense, it's not a direct MP-gaining device, like Refresh or Ballad, so it demands more from the PLD.

A PLD's MP pool is their hate tool. I can sympathise with a PLD demanding Refresh for this purpose (especially if the party is overcamping). And in this day-and-age, the quick-chain style of partying means that a PLD has little, if any, time to recover significant chunks of that MP back. This can make a party particularly messy if the set-up still calls for a legitimate tank. It's certainly not necessary; a SCH has the tools to keep up with the healing, but I can understand why having a direct source is preferable.

Edited, Mar 13th 2009 10:29am by Secretkeeper
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#13 Mar 14 2009 at 2:04 PM Rating: Excellent
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A lvl54 PLD without refresh against Lesser Colibri will not die but tank **** and the party will run out of mp after 2 mobs.
A lvl54 NIN without haste against Lesser Colibri will tank **** and mostly die.
At those lvl, the NIN will lose all his shadows in a few sec (even fewer if hit by Pecking Furry), will never manage to recast utsusemi: ichi and then blood tank. Unless there is a BRD to elegy.

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#14 Mar 14 2009 at 5:40 PM Rating: Excellent
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Have you ever tried tanking colibri without the ability to have haste and have them elegied and slowed every fight? If you haven't, then you can't say **** about a NIN QQing about not having haste, because on those birds it's the difference between life and dead, especially when overhunting at 54.
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#15 Mar 14 2009 at 11:59 PM Rating: Good
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I've been on both sides of this equation, having NIN and PLD at 75, and SCH at 63.

And I've seen spoiled tanks, rotten mages, and retarded DDs.

Basically, Refresh and Haste DO make things easier, but you can quite easily live without them.

One flaw I DO see is that, at 54, you're overhunting to fight Colibri, and Colibri are NOT fun things for a tank when you're overhunting. You can't use food, they can strip shadows rapidly, they're distressingly accurate, and they're highly resistant to debuffs.

Honestly, you could have chained crabs for better XP and less downtime, and been far less hard on your tank.

Still that would have been true WITH OR WITHOUT Haste or Refresh.

There is a lot of people who take something that is a GOOD IDEA, and make it a REQUIREMENT, then will spend a completely retarded amount of time rabidly trying to ensure their XP parties have all these elements.

For instance, I once saw a RDM shouting in Whitegate, asking for two people who had BRD to stop what they were doing and come merit with him. He even said in his shout that DD's and tanks were outright irrelevant. He got some heckle spam for his shouts, and called those who did so 'noobs'. Apparently he had gotten a lot of invites and was sick of 'sub-par' XP parties.

Two hours later, when I returned to Whitegate, he was still shouting, though he had managed to find a bard.

A decent XP party could have earned 30k in 2 hours without 2 BRDs and a RDM. ****, a CRUMMY party could have.

So, even once he got the party setup he was demanding together, he would need minimum of an hour of XP to make up for the time he wasted shouting for it, assuming he found a BRD right away. That's ASSUMING his chosen camp (Birds most likely) wasn't already occupied, and they had free access to all the mobs. Given this was prime time playing time, I seriously doubt it was.

I could see a tank being reluctant to fight colibris at that level. But being reluctant to tank because of a luxury like Refresh? Blech.

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#16 Mar 15 2009 at 12:13 AM Rating: Excellent
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Spoiled tanks, spoiled Bards, spoiled Red Mages...

Unfortunately the number of "spoiled" players goes across the board. Unless you have a very specific party setup it's hard to find players who actually want to team. Sadly, all the days of TP burns has rotted the common sense node of the 'elite' player's brain. Nowadays if you don't have Refresh/Haste/1500+ damage/ZOMG megabuffs, then they're not interested.

I had one guy practically beg me to join his party, then get ****** off because Scholar doesn't have Haste (for some reason he thought we did) and ditched. No one died, we had decent kills, Phalanx/Stoneskin meant hardly any damage taken, but for some reason he just couldn't bear to live without Haste. Pfft, amateurs...

In my day we never had all this fancy crap. WHM was conisidered THE healer, and we used to take mobs which would scare the living crap out of players these days. Remember Rams in Lufaise Meadows? Great Bleat used to take your tanks health to a mere slither by reducing his max HP to something crazily puny. Back then it was about skill. Being able to erase/cure before your paladin takes another hit is something I was immensely proud of.

Or how about weapons in Sky? Healing in a magic aggro zone filled with unfriendies? How about bones parties in KRT? If someone needed a Raise they'd aggro half the cavern on their way back to conciousness! Yeah, I played during the good old days when people actually needed to be good at their jobs. So these spoiled newcomers can kiss my Argute Pants...

/em shakes a stick and moans about those damned kids...

Edited, Mar 15th 2009 4:14am by Crystan
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#17 Mar 15 2009 at 5:25 PM Rating: Excellent
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What about the Processionaire's camp? Or the Bibiki Bay Gob camps?

I think most of the mages these days would have a fit fighting Toramas...

Those days are long gone... And with them a lot of really great players. My wife and my stepdaughter are often saying how good I am at my jobs... I had no choice, in the day, levelwhoring took skill. Now, I can put the controller down on auto-attack/resting and come back to the screen whenever honestly.

I was watching T.V. during my last birds party in East Ronfaure [S]...
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#18 Mar 15 2009 at 6:10 PM Rating: Decent
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It's not 2004 anymore. The "BACK IN MY DAY" argument doesn't fly, sorry. The simple fact is, a PLD performs far better with refresh, and a NIN performs far far better with haste. How well the tank performs is a good barometer of how well the party is doing in many cases - if he can't hold hate, the DDs pull hate and sponge MP. If he's out of MP, the party has to stop to let him rest it back.

Yes, a PLD can tank without refresh, and a NIN can tank without haste - just like a SCH can mainheal without Sublimation or using any strategems. But why? It's horribly inefficient compared to the alternative. I'm sure he's experienced plenty of parties with no refresh, and they most likely all sucked, so he doesn't want to experience that frustration anymore.

"Crap XP is better than no XP" may be true to a small extent, but a lot of us have better things to do with our time and attention than waste them on a fail party. Your party sounds like it was set up to fail (no haste, no refresh, overcamping on birds where most people don't even use food to make up for the overcamping), so he probably recognized that and went back to whatever he was doing while seeking party, hoping for a better setup.

Edit: And lol @ nostalgia goggles, players sucked harder back in the day than they do now. Skillchaining never required talent - you auto-attacked to 100 TP, then waited for your partner to get 100 TP, then you hit your WS macro and went back to auto-attacking. If anything, pure TP burning requires more attention because you WS right at 100 TP, and DD are expected to help tank when they pull hate. More often than not you got a healer who was lazy and just waited til the Torama died to Paralyna/Silena you, or you got an idiot who couldn't time his WS properly and messed up the SC. There's a reason SC+MB is dead in XP parties and it's not just XP/hour or laziness.

It's a much different game now. The last 50% of the mob's life doesn't disappear from a light SC + AM or aga3 MB anymore. The tank is expected to hold hate from 100-0 off of DDs that are spamming WSes, and it just doesn't happen with 60 mp/minute (trait+parade+sanction), not on mobs like birds. Exacerbate that by the fact that birds stop tanks from using food, and the fact that you were trying to fight them at IT+++ levels that way, and I can sympathize a lot with that guy for wanting to get out. I can already tell you how your party would have gone:

-Tank can't hold hate - nin can't keep shadows up because IT++ mob never misses and colibri have low delay, or PLD loses hate easily from getting hit so hard on an overcamp mob and no mp to cure himself with

-DDs pull hate early in fight and tank it from 100-0...with only utsu:ichi, and a 30 second recast due to lack of haste. Can't put shadows back up once they are down because of interrupts, blood tanking til another DD pulls hate and starts blood tanking

-You run out of mp @chain 2 or chain 3 and have to rest

-Eventually someone force DCs, someone else makes an excuse to leave and puts their flag back up

-Either you find some replacements and start back at part 1, or you can't find replacements and party breaks

Edited, Mar 15th 2009 10:38pm by Drexis
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#19 Mar 15 2009 at 7:53 PM Rating: Excellent
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If you want to get to the heart of the matter, consider this:

*****, complain, and blame, everyone but yourself.
I can't even think of a reason the word party still exists in FFXI.
Real parties are actual TEAMS, as in people who actually WORK TOGEATHER.
What the OP discribes isn't a team, its a sad example of what FFXI has become.

Your "party" made no attempt to accomidate to its member's strengths and weaknesses.
Today's "parties" are little more than demanding groups that outright refuse accomidating to its members, instead everyone must accomidate to accepted practices.
Rather than picking an enemy that suits your level and party setup, they simpily refuse to ever consider their strengths and limitations, and how best to use these strengths/shore up weaknesses to accomplish your goals.

In short, parties don't function as a team.
But why should we, after all; it's not like we play with actual people.
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#20 Mar 15 2009 at 11:42 PM Rating: Good
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I bet that at level 54 your Ninja would have died in the first 5 fights, with or without haste. Level 57-58, with SH, is when a Ninja shines on these.

Pally would live with proper support, but EXP would be too slow. The shield starts some blocking at level 57.

Aht Urghan is MINIMUM level 55. And even then it's pushing it.

And no, it is not better than the alternative (crabs) if you can dispel their defense buff.

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#21 Mar 16 2009 at 4:28 AM Rating: Excellent
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Pawkeshup, Assassin Reject wrote:
What about the Processionaire's camp? Or the Bibiki Bay Gob camps?

I think most of the mages these days would have a fit fighting Toramas...

Those days are long gone... And with them a lot of really great players. My wife and my stepdaughter are often saying how good I am at my jobs... I had no choice, in the day, levelwhoring took skill. Now, I can put the controller down on auto-attack/resting and come back to the screen whenever honestly.

I was watching T.V. during my last birds party in East Ronfaure [S]...


I know I'm gonna sound like an old man... but those days were great... I loved leveling my WHM on toramas. I prided myself on the fact that no tank I PT'd w/ ever had a single "XXX is paralyzed." or was restricted once by a silence effect. I don't really even think it took "skill" so much as common sense and a decent attention span.
#22 Mar 16 2009 at 4:57 AM Rating: Excellent
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As a 75 pld and 48 nin (both levelled to those levels in 2006, neither have been levelled since I've returned from a 2 year break, though I've used them both a lot), I can say that I probably would have stuck around on pld, but on nin, would have pressed a different camp, and had that not worked, left.

Justification:
Pld: As others have said, sanction + auto + parade (as long as you're above 85%) does equal 3/tick, and if you're ddpld'ing it, you don't have to cure as much, so... doable. Not the greatest, nor the most fun, but I can see it.

Nin: Admittedly, I'm not the world's greatest blink tank. I'm not bad, but I'm not "omgwtfpwn that nin didnt get hit once in 6 hours" good at it either (2006 was the last time I played, I know, it doesnt work like that anymore) However, birds can be really mean, and, well, going backwards in xp and paying a fair amount of gil to do it is just silly.

Caveat: I would've at least stuck around long enough to try to make something work. "What no <blah>?" and dropping pt is just asinine.

Quote:
And no, it is not better than the alternative (crabs) if you can dispel their defense buff.

^This. If your rdm is good, scissor guard is essentially a free paralyze proc.

Last of all, I agree with the "these damned kids" statements. Toramas, Cato's, Gobs in Bibiki Bay, etc, were some of my favorite things to xp on. I know the /thf days are over b/c it's less efficient, but managing hate right on the line so the light sc could go off perfectly made the grind of xp bearable. ToAU xp to me is practically the same as beating on walls in campaign.

Anyway, my (longwinded as always) 2c.

~Cwellan
#23 Mar 16 2009 at 5:37 AM Rating: Excellent
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I know I'm gonna sound like an old man... but those days were great... I loved leveling my WHM on toramas. I prided myself on the fact that no tank I PT'd w/ ever had a single "XXX is paralyzed." or was restricted once by a silence effect. I don't really even think it took "skill" so much as common sense and a decent attention span.


Torama is one of the best test of healer skill.

While I am not objecting reducing exp to 75, I am not in a favor in making the game too easy -- faster, good; easier, bad. Imps and Colibiri are mistakes. But the bad news is, a lot of fans wanted them. People wanted that bloody I-can-watch-TV-and-get-exp. Smiley: rolleyes
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#24 Mar 16 2009 at 8:45 AM Rating: Excellent
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If your overhunting birds at 54, I suggest you do the birds (Marsh Murre) in Caedarva Mire. The camps are West and East zones from Nashmau. 15min boat ride from Whitegate or 5 minutes run from Azouph Isle Staging Point.

The birds here do not steal food, unlike colibri. Birds here have frontal aoe move which does wind dmg. A single hard hit tp move but nowhere near as deadly as pecking fury. So if the DD stand away from the tank, aoe shouldn't be a problem at all. However I dont suggest going with less than 2 mages because at 54, mobs will hit hard regardless.

A few successful PT's I've had at 54 here included a SCH or two..

PLD, THF/nin, MNK/nin, RNG/nin, SCH, WHM (was awkward setup but managed to pull off good sata's and skillchains)

NIN, DRG/nin, WAR/nin(gaxe), THF/nin, DNC, SCH

NIN, MNK/nin, THF/nin, WAR/nin(gaxe), SCH, SCH (accession enspell 1-15dmg pretty good for dual wielders and h2h)

Chain 4 on avg. Occasional 5's. I got about 6-8k/hr with these pt i've had. It's not tp burn exp but still much better than crabs and is a good alternative to colibri at 54. You will need a competent party to do well here. As I have also had nightmare pt's in this camp at 54.





Edited, Mar 16th 2009 12:50pm by RandomLurker
#25 Mar 16 2009 at 9:07 AM Rating: Good
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3,144 posts
If people want to cry about bad parties then they need to go do coeurls in labarynth at level 60 with no brd and no sushi.

god **** those were the days.
____________________________
75BLM 75PLD 75RDM 75WAR 75MNK 75NIN 75THF 75SAM 75BRD 75RNG 75DRK 75SMN, 75DRG 75DNC 75WHM 75COR 75BST 75BLU 75PUP 75SCH - # of summoner burns = 0

http://sizedd.freeforums.org/

Quote a few months before the mass salvage banning:
couerlmaster wrote:
And stfu with the banstick, this is hardly traceable and so widespread throughout the EG community there's nothing SE can do w/o banning half the EG community on every server


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d0O8qb58bHY
#26 Mar 16 2009 at 10:05 AM Rating: Decent
*
138 posts
"Darkdoom" wrote:
Have you ever tried tanking colibri without the ability to have haste and have them elegied and slowed every fight? If you haven't, then you can't say sh*t about a NIN QQing about not having haste, because on those birds it's the difference between life and dead, especially when overhunting at 54.
What this guy said. At that level to keep hate you *must* be DDing at your best (which is hard in eva gear), or spamming elemental Ninjutsu (but at that level, it's about the same either way). Point is, without Haste you can expect us to either wear eva gear in an effort to preserve some shadows, which let's the mob go everywhere, or we can DD and do our best to hold hate then die when a stray pecking flurry comes in when shadows are down. Haste is even more critical when you're fighting the later colibri versions, as they reflect enfeebles, ruling out NIN slow/blind/para.

This is why I as a 75 NIN and 50 SCH, let everyone know as soon as they attempt to invite me that I have no haste or refresh. Maybe you should notify your party leaders of what you can't do before you get invited, so they can take measures to compensate for that before getting a tank? SCH still isn't a well known job in terms of what it can do, do your job to educate people as they try to invite you.
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