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Why is SCH hated?Follow

#52 Aug 14 2008 at 3:40 AM Rating: Good
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I really think WHMs are the ones who are most put out by SCH and yet I'm levelling it.. I agree Jing that it's less and less likely that WHMs will now get something to completely redress the balance on ~na's. I can still see there being a 3 min recast on Divine Veil but Yagrush makes that seem less and less likely.
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#53 Aug 14 2008 at 5:53 AM Rating: Decent
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eldelphia wrote:
I really think WHMs are the ones who are most put out by SCH and yet I'm levelling it.. I agree Jing that it's less and less likely that WHMs will now get something to completely redress the balance on ~na's. I can still see there being a 3 min recast on Divine Veil but Yagrush makes that seem less and less likely.


This is a stupid question from a WHM52, but isn't the issue of -na spells already addressed by the fact that WHM/SCH gets 2 charges? I have yet to meet an endgame WHM who isn't subbing SCH unless it's out of laziness (like my wife -.-).

Yes, I understand it's not the same, and I understand also that a perma-Veil makes sense, but will never happen, but I'm still curious.


I really am retarded before my second cup of coffee in the morning.

Edited, Aug 19th 2008 8:05am by Acturus
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#54 Aug 14 2008 at 6:51 AM Rating: Excellent
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Acturus wrote:
This is a stupid question from a WHM52, but isn't the issue of -na spells already addressed by the fact that WHM/SCH gets 2 charges?


Problem is a SCH can Poisonaga every minute post 70, WHM can do that every 10 (less if he/she has merits in Divine Seal recast) post 50.
As /SCH you don't have the Accession stratagem, so you can't -ga status removing spells at all. Unless you use DS.

I really wish SE would do something about WHM. So much for healing specialist when we are clearly inferior to SCH when it comes to support our parties with Erase or -na spells, which is a big part of our healing duty.

That being said, SCH to me is perfectly fine now. BLMs from my LS love to have me in their pt, and I don't honestly see the reason behind all this "hate". Now SE should just go back and readjust other jobs like WHM, BLM and possibly others.

Edited, Aug 14th 2008 4:57pm by Eeri

Edited, Aug 14th 2008 5:15pm by Eeri
#55 Aug 14 2008 at 7:14 AM Rating: Good
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Oh shit, Accession is level 40.

I'm so not with it today. Ignore me.
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#56 Aug 14 2008 at 10:14 AM Rating: Default
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And we don't get everything a SCH has by subbing SCH. We don't get 10% Cure Potency from Aurorastorm. We don't get Phalanxga, Blinkga and Stoneskinga. We don't get Regenga and Regenga II. We don't get a 10 fold increase to our Divine Veil ability, which you also get 10 levels earlier than WHM. We don't get the ability to Protectra, Shellra, or Curaga other parties that we're not in. We don't get Rapture, which can boost Banish when we can't, or Cures far more often than Divine Seal .... which is never used since it's on the same timer as Divine Veil.

Oh, and there's that whole helix, Dark Arts, T4 nukes thing too.


Except SCH doesn't get all that, they get 2-3 of them. If they get stoneskin/phalanx/blinkga, that's all they get. If they want regenga 2, there goes one of the other buffs. If they want AOE status cures, they can't get any of the buffs. (since anything you need a -na-ga on you're going to need every minute or so at least) If they want to protectra/shellra or curaga another party, that takes stratagems, meaning no buff -ga's, no status removal -ga's, nothing else! If they want to enhance banish spells (um, why?) or cures, they can't do any of the previously listed things.

Oh and they can't nuke while healing well, since you need a stratagem to switch to dark adendum, AND one to switch back to white addendum to get na spells, and ANOTHER stratagem before they could buff-ga, cure-ga, status removal-ga, etc.

Yep, light weather cure potency is something WHM doesn't have, but SCH doesn't have 10% cure potency on their body piece. But they definitely aren't using anything in dark arts with light weather up, since it'd up the mp cost and recast of every spell by 20%, and lower the potency or drain/aspir/sleep by 20%. (dark weather vs light weather)

Really, SCH is in no way competition for WHM. Ooooh they can status removal-ga! And they can do so by lowering their healing ability, because -na-gas takes away their aoe buffs or aoe cures! (Or any of the stuff in darks arts!) And frankly, beating WHM in AOE status cures, by giving up protectra/shellra/curaga/ and all the buffs SCH needs to use to make up for the lack of haste and curagas, plus everything on the dark arts side, isn't really a threat at all.
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#57 Aug 14 2008 at 12:16 PM Rating: Good
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louispv, I'll quote this post from the last page in full since everything this guy posts gets rated excellent, I thought maybe he could get through to you.

Kaeko wrote:
One thing I see being overlooked here is playstyle...

There are quite a few posts that try to make their point as to why SCH is or isn't overpowered that use different spell orders or focus on different buffs. How you choose to play SCH will either highlight it's strengths or its weaknesses (yes it has weaknesses). I'll try to give some examples...

Someone mentioned the idea of having to constantly buff while nuking and it wastes charges. This is a very good example of how I would recommend NOT to play Scholar. The more you switch between Light Arts and Dark Arts, the less efficient you become. If you want to be a buffer, then buff. If you want to nuke then nuke! If you constantly switch, your efficiency lowers drastically due to wasted charges.

Scholar is very versatile in that it can be an excellent buffer or a very capable nuker (while being very efficient MP wise in either type); however, you have to pick which you want to be at an event! You can't do both at the same time. I rarely ever switch Arts at an event... I'm either a healer or a DD and it's chosen before the fight starts. If someone important dies in 1 role, I can quickly switch to the other and act as a temporary or even full replacement - that is the benefit of having a SCH.

One example is on Ixion with low #s, I use SCH as a full time main healer due to MP efficiency coupled with extreme amounts of enmity down gear (spam cure 4). If we're in a bad zone like say Grauberg, I may have to quickly kill an Elemental at the beginning. I can quickly switch to Dark Arts, kill the Elemental with nukes (you rarely see BLMs on Ixion and melee can't quickly kill elementals - SCH is pretty much the only magic damage in a typical Ixion setup), then switch back to full time healing again in Light Arts. I'm basically only switching from Light to Dark or vice versa at the beginning (choosing my role), when someone in the opposite role falls and needs to be replaced, or in emergencies like quickly killing adds. I'm not changing roles all the time... it's not efficient.

If you choose to play SCH in a fashion which has you constantly changing Dark and Light Arts in normal play during fights, you will find yourself extremely limited by your Charge count and Arts recast timer. However, if you pre-define, or just have an idea of your main starting role and stick to that Art, you'll find yourself extremely MP efficient and unique. In the event of an emergency or bad death on an important player, you can easily switch over. Switching roles on SCH is not something you want to do often since it costs charges, but it can be extremely useful if you know when to switch.

Define the role of your SCH first. This will dictate your style of play and your use of both Arts. After that, you can work on your playstyle - hopefully one which highlights the strengths of SCH, not its weaknesses. Personally, my SCH is almost always in a buffer/healer role at events; if something bad happens like an add, I can switch to Dark Arts and quickly fix it (especially with 2hr, which is much stronger when using Dark rather than Light Arts in my opinion). My resist rates are too high to be useful as a full time nuker, but SCH is good at handling non-HNM mobs like adds. I'll main role in Dark Arts for soloing and manaburn setups usually, but then fall back to Light Arts if we need to stop DD due to death issues or something of that sort. Again, I'm pre-defining my role, but realizing I can switch if the situation dictates - I'm not wildly switching roles in normal play!

**********

Also to compare BLM and SCH. In events, it's better to Horde BLMs rather than SCHs. Think of it like increasing and diminishing returns. If you have to pick just ONE of either, SCH probably fits better. If you have to pick 6, you'd want more BLMs than SCHs. You start to get alot of redundency with multiple SCHs, but you can never have enough Stuns from BLMs usually. Also, Ga3 is more potent with more BLMs. Scholar isn't going to replace BLM on HNM and key events because SCH has like diminishing returns when you add too many while BLM is like the opposite. When you compare the jobs individually, and not in bulk, SCH is a stronger job though in my opinion.
So please, drop your argument about how SCH can't do all of those things because it can. I didn't say it can do every single thing back to back in a row, that wouldn't even make sense. It sounds like you need to learn how to play SCH if you don't know when to stop blowing your charges on buffs and save them for Na spells: aka: imps, soulflayers, skeletons, etc.

And why on earth are you talking about Prot and Shell like they are limiting factors? They're 30 min spells, you'll have 28 minutes of pure freedom after using them, or 27.5 if you count cast times.
#58 Aug 14 2008 at 4:38 PM Rating: Default
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louispv, I'll quote this post from the last page in full since everything this guy posts gets rated excellent, I thought maybe he could get through to you.


Ummmm, he's saying "Don't try and switch abck and forth between healing and nuking, because you'll suck." That's obvious. That in no way applies to me, as I'm saying SCH can't, while only saying in light arts, do everything people are saying it can. Like this stuff, where someone says SCH can do all of this at once:

Quote:
And we don't get everything a SCH has by subbing SCH. We don't get 10% Cure Potency from Aurorastorm. We don't get Phalanxga, Blinkga and Stoneskinga. We don't get Regenga and Regenga II. We don't get a 10 fold increase to our Divine Veil ability, which you also get 10 levels earlier than WHM. We don't get the ability to Protectra, Shellra, or Curaga other parties that we're not in. We don't get Rapture, which can boost Banish when we can't, or Cures far more often than Divine Seal .... which is never used since it's on the same timer as Divine Veil.

Oh, and there's that whole helix, Dark Arts, T4 nukes thing too.


And it's a simple fact, that they can only do 2-3 of those at once, which is completely fair, not all of it at once, which would be broken.

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So please, drop your argument about how SCH can't do all of those things because it can. I didn't say it can do every single thing back to back in a row, that wouldn't even make sense. It sounds like you need to learn how to play SCH if you don't know when to stop blowing your charges on buffs and save them for Na spells: aka: imps, soulflayers, skeletons, etc.


Even if you don't switch over to dark arts, SCH can't do most of what you say it can. Even JUST buffing and ehaling, it'd use all it's stratagems on buffs. A SCH would never ever drop stoneskinga, especially on those monsters, who love AOE spells, multihit WS's and AOE ws's. Against those enemies, shadows aren't stopping ga2-3's, aren't stopping frentic rip, and your only defense is stoneskinga. (and lets not get into seigan and third eye) Especially since, unlike WHM, you can't counter a aga spell with a curaga, without using a stratagem. They also CAN'T drop enspell-gas unless they like their party doing 10+% less damage over time. WHM has haste, and doesn't have such a worry, and would be better at that. Then, when the party inevitably does take damage, they need regenga2, or a curaga to heal that up, so there goes another stratagem, and they might have phalanxga'd before the damage so they have less to heal later.

If they were saving their stratagems for AOE silena (which is rediculous, since only the guy with hate needs silena immediately, once he's silenced you have 3-4 shadows to start silenaing others.) the party would be taking far more damage from not having haste help their utsu recasts, taking far more AOE damage from missing stoneskinga, dealing far less damage due to a lack of haste/enspellgas, and the SCH then has no way to heal everyone before the next AOE because they have no stratagems for curagas or regengas. Being better at AOE status removal than WHM, by being far worse at healing and buffing than WHM isn't really a threat to WHM.

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And why on earth are you talking about Prot and Shell like they are limiting factors? They're 30 min spells, you'll have 28 minutes of pure freedom after using them, or 27.5 if you count cast times.


Because they only last 30 minutes, and very very few parties only last 30 minutes. Sure at the start of the party you can cast them with your stored up stratagems, but when theyw ear off, you are back at one stratagem a minute, and have to choose, "Hmmm do I want to put up stoneskinga to save me hundreds of mp curing the damage on everyone, and make them all take more damage over time from lower magic/physical defense, or do I want to cast protectra/shellra, and lower the damage every time they get hit for the next half hour, but have to blow hundreds of mp healing them when they don't have stoneskinga for the next 3 minutes?" When your party is trying to go nonstop for 6 hours, that really adds up over time.

WHM heals better than SCH. WHM buffs better than SCH. WHM raises better than SCH. SCH can aoe status removal better than WHM by getting even worse at the things WHM is better at. WHM could use -na-ga's as spells, yes, but on a whole WHM is already barely threatened by SCH at all.
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#59 Aug 14 2008 at 5:46 PM Rating: Decent
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xXxNaobixXx wrote:
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Most people that don't care are the ones that don't have real time put into a job that had its toes stepped on.


I think that the ppl that don't care, are the ones that both, understand what scholar really does and can do, AND understand that sch, whm, blm, rdm, ALL have their place, strong points, etc. and thus, know that none of the above are obsolete, they all have their places and uses, and not even a sch can take that from them.


I think the people that don't care are the ones that have SCH leveled in addition to those other jobs. LOL

If I was a career BLM or WHM, I wouldn't be happy with SCH being able to do some things better than me, along with the versatility of switching to a completely different role and excelling at that as well. Fact of the matter is, I'd have to bust my balls to gear my BLM just to barely outdamage a 75 SCH in assorted AF/AH gear. It just doesn't make any sense.

If SCHs weren't so strong in each role, and able to do things the SPECIALISTS can't, this would be moot. Only thing that really saves WHMs is their ability to sub /SCH and get most of the benefits of Light Arts (other than status removal) and the fact they have Haste and SCH doesn't. If you're anything other than completely pimped out as BLM, only thing keeping you in the alliance for most fights is Stun (not that this wasn't true anyways since melee zerging the majority of HNMs became the norm, but meh).

As far as RDM goes, I never bothered meriting Phalanx II, and I'm glad I didn't at this point.




Edited, Aug 14th 2008 10:07pm by ScarShiva
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#60 Aug 14 2008 at 9:15 PM Rating: Excellent
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I don't normally say things like this, but seriously... louispv, you're an absolute idiot.

louispv wrote:
Ummmm, he's saying "Don't try and switch abck and forth between healing and nuking, because you'll suck." That's obvious. That in no way applies to me, as I'm saying SCH can't, while only saying in light arts, do everything people are saying it can. Like this stuff, where someone says SCH can do all of this at once:

Quote:
And we don't get everything a SCH has by subbing SCH. We don't get 10% Cure Potency from Aurorastorm. We don't get Phalanxga, Blinkga and Stoneskinga. We don't get Regenga and Regenga II. We don't get a 10 fold increase to our Divine Veil ability, which you also get 10 levels earlier than WHM. We don't get the ability to Protectra, Shellra, or Curaga other parties that we're not in. We don't get Rapture, which can boost Banish when we can't, or Cures far more often than Divine Seal .... which is never used since it's on the same timer as Divine Veil.

Oh, and there's that whole helix, Dark Arts, T4 nukes thing too.


And it's a simple fact, that they can only do 2-3 of those at once, which is completely fair, not all of it at once, which would be broken.


Where, in that entire quote that you highlighted, did the poster say anything about SCH doing all of that at once? Secondly, you keep trying and trying to justify that SCH as it stands right now is perfectly balanced, when you have a plethora of people from the BLM and WHM sides, as well as a few SCHs, that admit that SCH got a bit too much with the last update.

Accession at Lv.40 alone is enough to justify some ****** off WHMs. You essentially get Divine Veil 10 levels before "FFXI's premiere healer", and you can do it once every two minutes (at that level) at most. That's a farcry better than WHMs, who have to sacrifice their ability to enhance Cure potency in order to do the same thing once every 10 minutes.

At Lv.55, Rapture basically acts like a Divine Seal once every 1:20 at most, since you have 3 charges at that level. You basically took WHMs "Divine Veil" and "Divine Seal" abilities and completely trounce them.

The most important thing for a WHM is managing their MP. WHMs don't tend to run around spamming Curaga III and Cure V at a whim, as you seem to think in your deluded little universe. The only thing that WHM clings to that keeps them in favor is Haste, and nothing else. Other than that, and the ability to Raise III, a SCH can effectively with proper management of their strategems do everything a WHM can do, only better.

And that's not counting your little pocket storm, either.


louispv wrote:
Even if you don't switch over to dark arts, SCH can't do most of what you say it can. Even JUST buffing and ehaling, it'd use all it's stratagems on buffs. A SCH would never ever drop stoneskinga, especially on those monsters, who love AOE spells, multihit WS's and AOE ws's. Against those enemies, shadows aren't stopping ga2-3's, aren't stopping frentic rip, and your only defense is stoneskinga. (and lets not get into seigan and third eye)


Only defense is stoneskinga? How about... Silence? Amazing how well that stops those annoying -ga II and -ga III nukes. Or perhaps having a smart PLD that uses Shield Bash? Or a DRK/BLM to cast Stun? People had to live for awhile without the benefit of Stoneskinga against those type of mobs (unless they actually had a SMN to use Earthen Ward). Trust me, Stoneskinga isn't an absolute must. It's just another plus on SCHs plate.

Phalanxga. Very powerful damage reduction (moreso than RDM meritted ability, Phalanx II), and you get to AoE it and provide better protection without merits than a RDM can, unless perhaps they have 5/5 in Phalanx II. Then the Phalanx II might be comparable to SCH AoE Phalanx. Except, of course, SCH get to do this at Lv.66 using /RDM instead of RDM having to be Lv.75 with appropriate merits. Phalanx lasts 3 minutes. At Lv.66, when SCH get Phalanx, they gain a strategem charge every 1:20. Four levels later, they get one charge every minute. Not like it's a huge ordeal using a charge for a spell that has a duration twice as long as it takes to get the charge back.


louispv wrote:
Especially since, unlike WHM, you can't counter a aga spell with a curaga, without using a stratagem. They also CAN'T drop enspell-gas unless they like their party doing 10+% less damage over time. WHM has haste, and doesn't have such a worry, and would be better at that.


Yes, WHM have Haste. Thank God, or they'd be completely shelved, for the most part.. and once again, WHMs don't just run around spamming Curagas.

Oh, and En-spells duration is 3 minutes. You'd have to use 2 charges every 3 minutes to keep Phalanxga and Enspellga on the entire party. Really not a problem, since you get 2 charges in 2:40 at Lv.66 when Phalanxga becomes available. You'd be able to keep Phalanxga and Enspellga on the entire party while still having a charge to burn for an emergency Curaga or AoE status removal.


louispv wrote:
Then, when the party inevitably does take damage, they need regenga2, or a curaga to heal that up, so there goes another stratagem, and they might have phalanxga'd before the damage so they have less to heal later.


-ga isn't the answer to everything. If you're a SCH doing healing duties, you're thinking like a WHM. The smart WHM, and by extension, smart SCH, would cure the tank, cast a Regen II on another hurt PT member, then a Regen I on a slightly less hurt party member, and maybe a couple more supplemental Cures. Not go, "ZOMG DAMAGE CURAGA!" and take hate.


louispv wrote:
If they were saving their stratagems for AOE silena (which is rediculous, since only the guy with hate needs silena immediately, once he's silenced you have 3-4 shadows to start silenaing others.) the party would be taking far more damage from not having haste help their utsu recasts, taking far more AOE damage from missing stoneskinga, dealing far less damage due to a lack of haste/enspellgas, and the SCH then has no way to heal everyone before the next AOE because they have no stratagems for curagas or regengas. Being better at AOE status removal than WHM, by being far worse at healing and buffing than WHM isn't really a threat to WHM.


This just makes absolutely no sense and I am now dumber from having read it.

Nix the whole Stoneskinga fetish you have, kill the absolutely retarded idea of "Silenaga" and save it for something like "Paralynaga", and think like a WHM when you're making your arguments. A smart SCH can perform much better than a WHM can, with the only exceptions being Haste and Raise III.

Jesus, you talk like the PT is getting bombed by AoE stuff every 10 seconds. If that's the case, even Haste for Utsu recast isn't going to do much good to anyone.


louispv wrote:
Quote:
And why on earth are you talking about Prot and Shell like they are limiting factors? They're 30 min spells, you'll have 28 minutes of pure freedom after using them, or 27.5 if you count cast times.


Because they only last 30 minutes, and very very few parties only last 30 minutes. Sure at the start of the party you can cast them with your stored up stratagems, but when theyw ear off, you are back at one stratagem a minute, and have to choose, "Hmmm do I want to put up stoneskinga to save me hundreds of mp curing the damage on everyone, and make them all take more damage over time from lower magic/physical defense, or do I want to cast protectra/shellra, and lower the damage every time they get hit for the next half hour, but have to blow hundreds of mp healing them when they don't have stoneskinga for the next 3 minutes?" When your party is trying to go nonstop for 6 hours, that really adds up over time.


See above regarding "SCH thinking like a WHM when performing a WHM role", and "Stoneskinga isn't SE's gift to Vana'diel". People live without the benefit of Stoneskin all the time. Trust me... not having Stoneskin isn't a huge liability.


louispv wrote:
WHM heals better than SCH. WHM buffs better than SCH. WHM raises better than SCH. SCH can aoe status removal better than WHM by getting even worse at the things WHM is better at. WHM could use -na-ga's as spells, yes, but on a whole WHM is already barely threatened by SCH at all.


SCH heals more efficiently, ergo better, than WHM. SCH buffs more effectively than WHM, with the exception of Haste. SCH can AoE status removal better than WHM without having to sacrifice doing anything that they can already do. You just have to start thinking like a smart SCH instead of a ******.

WHM is probably more threatened by SCH than BLM, for the simple fact that Haste and Raise III is the only thing they have to hold on to.

Alibi: a WHM/SCH can use Penury/Cure V for some very effective and MP efficient healing, once every 2 minutes at best.
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#61 Aug 15 2008 at 1:09 AM Rating: Default
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The most important thing for a WHM is managing their MP. WHMs don't tend to run around spamming Curaga III and Cure V at a whim, as you seem to think in your deluded little universe. The only thing that WHM clings to that keeps them in favor is Haste, and nothing else. Other than that, and the ability to Raise III, a SCH can effectively with proper management of their strategems do everything a WHM can do, only better.


And curagas 1 and 2, because obviously the SCH/RDM has those...
And the regens that are bumped up a rank while their mp cost stays the same via merits. (for instance regen 1+ merits almost equals regen 2 for 15 mp, no scratch that, 13 mp, light arts and all.) Oh and not having to sacrifice a stratagem every time they want protectras.

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And that's not counting your little pocket storm, either.


Well that's not counting the nice cure potency+10% body piece for WHM, too! It's also not counting that the weather spell has an mp cost and a casting time, and a rather short duration requireing recasts often. Same as phalanx in fact, meaning it must have it's mp cost and casting time used 10 times every half hour, which quikly adds up!

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Only defense is stoneskinga? How about... Silence? Amazing how well that stops those annoying -ga II and -ga III nukes. Or perhaps having a smart PLD that uses Shield Bash? Or a DRK/BLM to cast Stun? People had to live for awhile without the benefit of Stoneskinga against those type of mobs (unless they actually had a SMN to use Earthen Ward). Trust me, Stoneskinga isn't an absolute must. It's just another plus on SCHs plate.


Because silence does ever so much against cursed sphere, or blood saber, eh? And it stops multihit WS's like frentic rip, rushing drub, and pecking flurry, now, I presume. Yes people got by those before stoneskinga, when their healers had cheap effective curagas, haste for getting shadows back up after they're stripped, and flash, none of which SCH has. Or ****, if the healer was a SMN like you said, they might very well have had stoneskinga!
"Have the BLM or PLD stun it." HA! Yes because we all know how often they get invites.

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Oh, and En-spells duration is 3 minutes. You'd have to use 2 charges every 3 minutes to keep Phalanxga and Enspellga on the entire party. Really not a problem, since you get 2 charges in 2:40 at Lv.66 when Phalanxga becomes available. You'd be able to keep Phalanxga and Enspellga on the entire party while still having a charge to burn for an emergency Curaga or AoE status removal.


Okay, lets go about this logically. You have 30 stratagems in 30 minutes, yes? Well 28, because you need protect and shellra, unless casting each spell 6 times is somehow mp efficient. Well then to keep an enspell up, there goes another 10, and another 10 for phalanxga (which you used in the exact same arguement I made, just replacing stoneskinga with phalanxga) So 8 left for aoe status removal, aoe cures, enhancing cure potency, regenga, stoneskinga, blinkga, Oh sh*t we need sleeps, and everything else they have to do.
You're telling me, that a SCH, assuming he never AOE'd a cure, or any buff but phalanx and enspells, is only removing 8 statuses in half an hour? Well then, how is that such an incredible advantage? You really ought to be removing the **** status from 2-3 people anyway, and they're paying double cost for it, they save a grand total of 5 seconds and 8-40 mp on the single extra status effect removal they got! And that's still assuming the enemy only used 8 status effects in half an hour.

Quote:
-ga isn't the answer to everything. If you're a SCH doing healing duties, you're thinking like a WHM. The smart WHM, and by extension, smart SCH, would cure the tank, cast a Regen II on another hurt PT member, then a Regen I on a slightly less hurt party member, and maybe a couple more supplemental Cures. Not go, "ZOMG DAMAGE CURAGA!" and take hate.


Alright, so 110 mp for curaga 2 is less effective than an 79 mp cure IV for the tank+32 mp regen II+13 mp regen I+ just to be conservative, a single cure II 22 mp. So 110 mp from a WHM vs 146 mp for all the spells the SCH'd cast+ about 3-4 times as much casting time? (by which point there's new damage that needs healing, most likely, new statuses to remove, or buffs wearing, etc.) So 84 mp from cure III and the AOE stratagem is so much less effective than 146 mp and all that casting time, both of which would be from the SCH? Sorry, but curagas are more efficient, faster, and since any competent healer, with any emnity- at all, isn't going to pull hate with a curaga II on 2-3 people, a managable level of hate, to boot.

Quote:
This just makes absolutely no sense and I am now dumber from having read it.

If it makes no sense, you might consider learning english, since it's quite simple. SCH can't do everything at once. Everything the SCH does, means he can't do the rest of the stuff he might do for the entire duration till a new stratagem.

Quote:
Nix the whole Stoneskinga fetish you have,

and according to you replace it with phalanxga, changing nothing.

Quote:
kill the absolutely retarded idea of "Silenaga" and save it for something like "Paralynaga",

And what has paralyzga again? EXP/Merit monsters have harmless stuff, like blindga, silencega, poisonga, and slow. Only things in endgame, where cure V is more than enough reason for WHM over SCH, have nasty paralyzega, breakga, etc that must be removed immediately.

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and think like a WHM when you're making your arguments.

So spend more mp, and WAY more time, to do the same thing you could do faster, cheaper and easier another way?

Quote:
A smart SCH can perform much better than a WHM can, with the only exceptions being Haste and Raise III.


And aoe cures, and cure V for emergencies, and flash, and better regens. You know, **** near every ability of a healer except status effect removal.

Quote:
Jesus, you talk like the PT is getting bombed by AoE stuff every 10 seconds. If that's the case, even Haste for Utsu recast isn't going to do much good to anyone.

No, I'm assuming that the party is hit with an aoe, OR a staus effect, OR a buff wears at some point during 3 minutes, which is pretty much garanteed to happen. If the buff wears, you need to recast it, meaning nothing that uses a stratagem for another whole minute. If the party is hit with a status effect, then nothing else that uses a stratagem for an entire minute! If the party is hit with an AOE, and you don't want to waste far more mp, and far more time than you actually have, nothing else that uses a stratagem for an entire minute!

Quote:
SCH heals more efficiently, ergo better, than WHM. SCH buffs more effectively than WHM, with the exception of Haste. SCH can AoE status removal better than WHM without having to sacrifice doing anything that they can already do. You just have to start thinking like a smart SCH instead of a ******.

WHM is probably more threatened by SCH than BLM, for the simple fact that Haste and Raise III is the only thing they have to hold on to.

And everything here is just blatantly wrong. They can do one of those things at a time, and if two or more need doing, have fun sitting with an enfeeble/ in low hp/unbuffed for however many minutes as stratagems you need to use. (With the only exception being doing things single target, which removes SCH's advantage over WHM. And it puts them behind WHM in curing HP since WHM's curagas are stratagem free.)

Now the important bit:
Quote:
Where, in that entire quote that you highlighted, did the poster say anything about SCH doing all of that at once? Secondly, you keep trying and trying to justify that SCH as it stands right now is perfectly balanced, when you have a plethora of people from the BLM and WHM sides, as well as a few SCHs, that admit that SCH got a bit too much with the last update.


Because SCH is perfectly balanced. It functions just as it should. Mages are ****** that they are no longer alone at what they do, but that doesn't mean SCH is broken.

The mage jobs need buffs to get to where they should be over SCH, rather than "tied" with SCH. But that's the point, they need buffs. Nerfing SCH does nothing but break a balanced job. Guess what, before SCH was added, the mage jobs already needed buffs. Had SCH never been added? The mage jobs still would have needed buffs. It's rediculous to say "Mage jobs are broken, and SCH isn't, so lets break SCH too!" I know misery loves company, but the solution is, "Lets boost all these mage jobs who've gone unchanged since before zilart!"

Edited, Aug 15th 2008 5:26am by louispv
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#62 Aug 15 2008 at 2:02 AM Rating: Decent
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I'm not understanding this Regen, WHM merit argument you're making. Me for example, I have maxed group 1 merits and I don't have Regen merits. I maxed Cure Cast Speed like every single WHM should, and then I chose between Barspells and Regen. I decided to max Barspells. Also, I'm 3/5 on Relic armor and don't have the body piece. So, maybe if I keep at it I can get ahead of what SCH does with Regen at level 40.

And just for clarification, if I didn't merit Barspells or get the relic armor, SCH would have better barspells. They have better barspells from level 10-74 regardless.
Quote:
The mage jobs need buffs to get to where they should be over SCH, rather than "tied" with SCH. But that's the point, they need buffs. Nerfing SCH does nothing but break a balanced job. Guess what, before SCH was added, the mage jobs already needed buffs. Had SCH never been added? The mage jobs still would have needed buffs. It's rediculous to say "Mage jobs are broken, and SCH isn't, so lets break SCH too!" I know misery loves company, but the solution is, "Lets boost all these mage jobs who've gone unchanged since before zilart!"
You make this far too complicated. It's really very simple. You have two jobs. One focuses only on white magic, no black magic at all, so that they are the best at it. The other focuses on only black magic, no white magic at all, so that they are the best at it. Then you have a job who works on both to gain more versatility, except they are way too far up the list.

Tell me what spell Black Mage learns at level 75. The job that ONLY focuses on Black Magic, when they reach the pinnacle of their skill, level 75. They learn Thunder IV. Somehow, SCH gets that. It would be like you getting Reraise 3, the only spell WHM gets at level 75 after focusing ONLY on white magic the entire time. Explain to me how SCH should get RR3 and you can justify having Thunder IV.

It's not balanced, and it's not functioning perfectly. Now the other jobs certainly need major buffs, but so far there's no word of this yet. All we can be sure of is that next update SCH will get group 1 merits, and the new Nyzul relic will be revealed. After that, they will get group 2 merits, AF+1 and relic armor aswell. So, SCH is just going to get better. There's no way it could be perfectly balanced now, it's supposed to be underpowered now, it's not even done yet.

Edited, Aug 15th 2008 5:19am by JingWoo
#63 Aug 15 2008 at 3:06 AM Rating: Default
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OK lets back track a minute.... Before the update it was lolsch.... trust me thats when I had to compete with blms for gob pets to get to 75 SOLO yes thats right sch couldnt buy a pty invite... after the update everyone cries foul. Whm and Blm both seem to have the same problem neither job has ever had competition in their respective fields curing and nuking now theres a job that can compet with both. (If you think sch can surpass whm or blm youre delusional) Cure V **** near hate free mega cure bomb... I dare a Sch to Rapture Cure IV bomb a pld at khim or tiamat and think there not gonna get mushed. Regen III RRIII Raise III Haste Repose Teleport spells all set whm apart from sch. Be honest cure V is the Shi....t. I have leveld blm and honestly most blms are just plain retarded the whole OMGZ Sch > Blm comes from one location and one location only ................... wait for it ................ the pudding camp this argument is dead and over. Nuking anything that matters in this game (puddings do not matter) Blm > Sch by leaps and bounds.... SE is not going to nerf sch I hate to inform you but the job is only going to get better.... If i recall correctly didnt bards have a cry fit when cors popped up?
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#64 Aug 15 2008 at 3:28 AM Rating: Decent
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Quote:
Whm and Blm both seem to have the same problem neither job has ever had competition in their respective fields curing and nuking now theres a job that can compet with both.
Are you really trying to say that WHM has never known what it feels like to have competition? What about ... RDM? Also, DNC has alot of very nice tricks as a healer, like not having to rest ever or having every cure used be instant speed. That job is not done yet either, so we'll see what happens with that. Also PUP got all Na spells, Cure V, Regen III, and limitless MP. What happens if SE fixes the AI like every PUP is begging them to do?

For as long as I've played WHM, it's been in the middle of fierce competition for it's slot in any party and only shined fully on harder endgame fights.

Edited, Aug 15th 2008 6:26am by JingWoo
#65 Aug 15 2008 at 3:34 AM Rating: Excellent
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Quote:
If i recall correctly didnt bards have a cry fit when cors popped up?


no, you got real bards confused with the bandwagon merit onry bards
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#66 Aug 15 2008 at 7:51 AM Rating: Good
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Quote:
And curagas 1 and 2, because obviously the SCH/RDM has those...
And the regens that are bumped up a rank while their mp cost stays the same via merits. (for instance regen 1+ merits almost equals regen 2 for 15 mp, no scratch that, 13 mp, light arts and all.) Oh and not having to sacrifice a stratagem every time they want protectras.


You know, I levelled WHM from 1-60 on Kaetara before I retired her, and I never had to worry about Curagas as much as you seem to. I really tried to avoid using Cure IV, too. I had all the nice little -enmity items and such, but really.. I just didn't see the need to cast it. Your argument about Protectra that you are clinging to is irrelevant. One charge every 30 minutes when you regain them at the rate of one per minute is paltry. The only thing I will grant you in the way of Protectra/Shellra is that WHMs can merit and gain access to Protectra/Shellra V.

You seem to be laboring under the thought that I am speaking about endgame events. I'm not. I'm talking about standard XP/Merit groups. As Kaeko said, when it comes to endgame, you want the specialists because, well, they're specialists. You're gonna want a WHM to main heal for Cure V, and the occasional Curaga. You'd want a SCH for AoE status removal and AoE buffs. When it comes to your standard, run-of-the-mill XP/Merit party, there is absolutely nothing that a WHM/BLM can do that a SCH can't do better.. except Haste and Raise III.


louispv wrote:
Well that's not counting the nice cure potency+10% body piece for WHM, too! It's also not counting that the weather spell has an mp cost and a casting time, and a rather short duration requireing recasts often. Same as phalanx in fact, meaning it must have it's mp cost and casting time used 10 times every half hour, which quikly adds up!


Well, since you're counting, throw in your Sublimation while you're at it. WHMs don't get Refresh without a RDM, last time I checked.


Quote:
Because silence does ever so much against cursed sphere, or blood saber, eh? And it stops multihit WS's like frentic rip, rushing drub, and pecking flurry, now, I presume. Yes people got by those before stoneskinga, when their healers had cheap effective curagas, haste for getting shadows back up after they're stripped, and flash, none of which SCH has. Or ****, if the healer was a SMN like you said, they might very well have had stoneskinga!
"Have the BLM or PLD stun it." HA! Yes because we all know how often they get invites.


My God, you're an idiot. You tell me to learn English? I said Silence stops -ga II and -ga III nukes. Cursed Sphere is not a nuke. Bomb Toss is not a nuke. Multi-hit TP moves like Frenetic Rip, Rushing Drub, and Pecking Flurry are also not nukes. While we're at it, Frenetic Rip, Rushing Drub, and Pecking Flurry aren't AoE, so no need for using a Curaga after them.


louispv wrote:
You're telling me, that a SCH, assuming he never AOE'd a cure, or any buff but phalanx and enspells, is only removing 8 statuses in half an hour? Well then, how is that such an incredible advantage? You really ought to be removing the **** status from 2-3 people anyway, and they're paying double cost for it, they save a grand total of 5 seconds and 8-40 mp on the single extra status effect removal they got! And that's still assuming the enemy only used 8 status effects in half an hour.


Because WHMs can only AoE status removal 3 times an hour by sacrificing their Cure Potency JA. As in, they can't use it for potency. As in, they have to wait 10 minutes to have a shot at using it again. That's the absolute best they can offer, unless they fully merit it and get it down to 9 minutes by giving up their Regen Potency, Barspell, or Cure Cast merits, which just isn't worth it. SCH can take those 8 strategems that we set aside and be able to AoE status cure 4 times and still have 4 Cure Potency strategems. Or, they can AoE status cure 4 times, AoE Cure 2 times, and have 2 Cure Potency strategems. WHM can't touch that. Not even close.


Quote:
Alright, so 110 mp for curaga 2 is less effective than an 79 mp cure IV for the tank+32 mp regen II+13 mp regen I+ just to be conservative, a single cure II 22 mp. So 110 mp from a WHM vs 146 mp for all the spells the SCH'd cast+ about 3-4 times as much casting time? (by which point there's new damage that needs healing, most likely, new statuses to remove, or buffs wearing, etc.) So 84 mp from cure III and the AOE stratagem is so much less effective than 146 mp and all that casting time, both of which would be from the SCH? Sorry, but curagas are more efficient, faster, and since any competent healer, with any emnity- at all, isn't going to pull hate with a curaga II on 2-3 people, a managable level of hate, to boot.


OK, let's talk Curagas. Curaga II is, in effect, an AoE Cure III. It will restore ~180 HP to party members within the area of effect, not counting any potency effects from Light Staff, Noble's Tunic, etc. It costs a WHM 120mp to cast Curaga II. It costs 88mp to cast Cure IV. If the tank gets hit with Frenetic Rip, you're not going to cast Curaga anything to heal the damage. You're going to cast an appropriately tiered single-target Cure.

Let's assume you got hit with some random AoE TP move that did ~300 damage to the whole PT. Use a strategem, cast Regenga II, and throw the tank a Cure II or Cure III. Problem solved. The Regen II will restore ~240hp to everyone over the course of one minute, wherein you will have your strategem charge back. The additional Cure II or Cure III will push the tank a bit ahead since they are tanking. You'll spend a grand total of ~107mp and have the PT sufficiently healed to be able to continue.


louispv wrote:
SCH can't do everything at once. Everything the SCH does, means he can't do the rest of the stuff he might do for the entire duration till a new stratagem.


One minute isn't a huge ordeal. Really.


louispv wrote:
And aoe cures, and cure V for emergencies, and flash, and better regens. You know, **** near every ability of a healer except status effect removal.


AoE cures.. meh. "Better Regens" only applies to Regen III for WHMs, which they can't AoE. Haste, Flash, and Raise III, sure.


louispv wrote:
No, I'm assuming that the party is hit with an aoe, OR a staus effect, OR a buff wears at some point during 3 minutes, which is pretty much garanteed to happen. If the buff wears, you need to recast it, meaning nothing that uses a stratagem for another whole minute. If the party is hit with a status effect, then nothing else that uses a stratagem for an entire minute! If the party is hit with an AOE, and you don't want to waste far more mp, and far more time than you actually have, nothing else that uses a stratagem for an entire minute!


You're also assuming that the SCH has no more than one strategem charge at any given time, and that anything the SCH does will force them to wait another minute to get that charge back. Sorry, but that just isn't the norm. If you spend 2 charges to AoE Phalanx and Enspell, you'll have both of those charges back a minute before those effects wear off. You'll also have 2 other charges leftover after casting them for whatever else. For every minute that passes that you don't get hit by an AoE whatever, you get another charge.

You're also assuming that you're going to be the only one casting Cures, which implies a NIN tank. If you're using a NIN tank, a lot of damage is going to be mitigated by shadows, and if you have a PLD tank a lot of stress is going to be taken away from you since they can cure themselves.

If a SCH is brought into a PT to main-heal, then they should do exactly that. Phalanxga and Enspellga would take a secondary seat to healing, and would be cast only in circumstances where you have the charges to spare for them. They're handy to have, but not an absolute necessity. Protect/Shell consume two charges every 30 minutes, AoE as necessary, with the occasional Phalanxga or Enspellga thrown in as appropriate.


louispv wrote:
Because SCH is perfectly balanced.


No. It's not. You're saying the other mage jobs need buffs to put them above SCH, "where they should be". I say SCH should never have been given so much to be above the other mage jobs, because they are specialists at what they do. What SCH needed was a buff that gave them unique applications that made them valuable, rather than a buff that gave them everything that makes the other jobs what they are, rendering them near obsolete.

Awhile back, you posted something along the lines of, "SCH needed a buff because there was no reason to invite a SCH because they were worse than WHM or BLM at everything." If WHMs and BLMs were to get this buff, then you would be back in the same boat of, "SCH are weak because WHM and BLM do everything better than we can", which is a faulty mentality. Yes WHM and BLM should do everything better than a SCH, because they are specialized and SCH isn't. That's the biggest issue.


Edit: had to double-read my post and fix some faulty math.

Edited, Aug 15th 2008 10:07am by Kaetara
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#67 Aug 15 2008 at 8:23 AM Rating: Good
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I wish some people would understand that SCH is not RDM.
SCH is supposed to specialize in both White and Black magic, just not both at the same time.
There is no reason for BLMs to be ******* since they had zero competition in their spot (namely serious Magic damage), even tho there were other 17 jobs.

Still BLM and WHM need some revisiting now, as they are the original Black and White jobs and need an edge over an hybrid.
#68 Aug 15 2008 at 3:43 PM Rating: Decent
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Quote:
No. It's not. You're saying the other mage jobs need buffs to put them above SCH, "where they should be". I say SCH should never have been given so much to be above the other mage jobs, because they are specialists at what they do. What SCH needed was a buff that gave them unique applications that made them valuable, rather than a buff that gave them everything that makes the other jobs what they are, rendering them near obsolete.


Okay, lets again think about it for a second. If SCH had never gotten the buff, they'd still be where they were in lol territory. And then BLM and WHM got the buffs they deserve. Now SCH isn't even unlocked anymore by anyone new because it's an incredibly worthless job. And then SCH would be given the exact same buff they got in reality, and NO ONE WOULD CARE, because BLM and WHM have always been better than SCH. And then you'd be balanced!

It's unfortunate that SE fixed SCH before WHM and BLM, but if it hadn't been SCH fixed first, then any fixes they did down the road would NEVER get rid of the lolSCH stigma. I mean DRG STILL had the LOL-DRG stigma all the way till the 2hander update, and they'd never been lol at all, just slightly worse than others.

Or look at PUP. For the first few months, they were horrible, because there was tier 1 npc sold parts and almost nothing else! People came up with LOL-PUP at that point. PUP then got tier 2 attachments, ENM60 parts, ashu talif parts and now aprts off Ob, and are FANTASTIC when played correctly. When played correctly, using the right frame and the right attachments, and the right maneuvers, PUP can tie most other DD's. (since they can give att bonuses, acc bonuses, haste, magic attack bonus, etc to their pets with attachments unlike other pet jobs.) But they're still LOL-PUP because for the first few months they blew! Because they were legitamately gimp the first few months, they will forever be almost unplayed and seen as gimp, long after they stopped being gimp!

EDIT: had to fix "I'm a morons" and add PUP

Edited, Aug 16th 2008 12:37am by louispv
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#69 Aug 15 2008 at 5:01 PM Rating: Decent
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HAW HAW HAW!!! I just had this experience last week with these two know it alls. Saying SCH is overpowered and all that. Of course, I did the scholarly thing and tried to educate them on the limitations of SCH. 4 charges...that's it for 4 minutes. Can't pop off a Accession cure without a charge, so you save one person and that's it sometimes. A whm always has curaga. R3 too, which the know it alls say: R2 is more than enough...but still it is a little better. Yeah it's cool to be able to silena everyone at once and then slap SS on everybody, but don't let buffs wear for another few minutes because I used Light Addemendum so I can only cast a group protectra. Now I know the SCH bashers are gonna say "With SS up who needs shell?" Question is, how do I save the party with everyone's hp bar in the red? I can't...unlike a whm after those charges are gone I'm extremely stuck. Oh, that's just the limitations of SCH if I'm just doing the whm thing....if I throw in some SCH spells, or BLM shananigans it's yet another story.
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#70 Aug 15 2008 at 9:03 PM Rating: Decent
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Quote:
Now I know the SCH bashers are gonna say "With SS up who needs shell?" Question is, how do I save the party with everyone's hp bar in the red?



I'm a 66 sch and I love the job too. But then I have a 75 blm and whm so the easy way around this dilemna is easy. Sub whm and you have DS curaga 2. SMN and BLMs have done fine with just that. Our accession, rapture, etc just made our life so much easier. I feel bad for smn that are going to have to xp as /whm. ;;

#71 Aug 15 2008 at 11:06 PM Rating: Decent
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Only reason I can remotely see people "hating" scholar....

Scholar cant cast Haste....and we know how many times people "depend" on haste.

RDM,WHM,SMN can all cast haste and heal.
BLM usually will out nuke anyone and can cast stun. Usually AOEs are nice but usually not event friendly.

RDM,WHM,SMN,BLM can be fully functional at their job at all times.

So all in all SCH is missing Haste, other than that it can nuke fairly well, heal amazingly and buff quite nicely.


If you are taken care of as far as haste though and need another Healer/Buffer or nuker, SCH is awesome. If you are lacking refresh/ballad or haste, you will usually fill these in first before needing another healer/nuker. Also I will say that WHM/BLM/RDM still get some the nicest gear SCH hasnt gotten yet(Dalmy set etc.)
If SCH gets some armor to give them refresh they will be helped a bit. Also not giving SCH haste and Stoneskin out of the box was a nice idea. As a RDM and SCH can heal just about as good as a WHM, having WHM with haste and other spells earlier was nice for keeping them around. Obviously SCH being more hybrid than BLM and WHM makes it harder to "like". However look at RDM, without refresh and their enfeebs they might be forgotten. SCH is a hybrid, it is an AMAZING support, and baring all the necessary slots are filled(Haste,Enfeeb,Refresh/Ballad), like I said SCH fits in nicely. Its kinda like our various gear threads with all the new jobs.


SCH.DNC,BLU,COR,PUP THIS SH*T IS SITUATIONAL

Edited, Aug 16th 2008 3:05am by Silvra
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#72 Aug 15 2008 at 11:12 PM Rating: Decent
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HAW HAW HAW!!! I just had this experience last week with these two know it alls. Saying SCH is overpowered and all that. Of course, I did the scholarly thing and tried to educate them on the limitations of SCH. 4 charges...that's it for 4 minutes. Can't pop off a Accession cure without a charge, so you save one person and that's it sometimes. A whm always has curaga. R3 too, which the know it alls say: R2 is more than enough...but still it is a little better.

Right, exactly. Scholar has four charges. Each one of those which recharges in the space of 1 minute. Unless you're using all four strategems in the space of a minute, you're likely to have one available. You only need two Strategems for AoE Protect/Shell, leaving one free for your Stoneskin. That gives you a spare you can save for those AoE status cures.

Quote:
Yeah it's cool to be able to silena everyone at once and then slap SS on everybody, but don't let buffs wear for another few minutes because I used Light Addemendum so I can only cast a group protectra.

Not entirely sure where you're going with this argument. With Light Arts up you can access almost every major White Mage ability save for tier 3 Regen and Raise. With a White Mage support job (There's no rule that says you have to use RDM) you have access to Curaga without using charges as well. The only tradeoff with a white mage sub is the loss of Phalanxga and Enspells, but if you're playing as a healer those skills are less important anyway.

Quote:
Now I know the SCH bashers are gonna say "With SS up who needs shell?" Question is, how do I save the party with everyone's hp bar in the red? I can't...unlike a whm after those charges are gone I'm extremely stuck.

Unlike a white mage who can't AoE status cure except on a 10 minute timer, and ultimately by throwing away their cure potency buff. Again, each SINGLE strategem is on a 1 minute timer and Scholar can have FOUR of them saved up and ready to use. It's extremely unlikely, unless you're over-nuking or wasting them on unnecessary buffs that you will not have at least one strategem available.

If you play Scholar like a healer, there is nothing a white mage can do that Scholar can't besides R3, Haste and their own merit-specific skills. Nadda. Zip. Scholar doesn't even have access to Group 1 merits yet, and already there's a big gap in ability. With a possible reduction in Strategem recasts, or perhaps the ability to increase our maximum strategem limit Scholar could trump White Mage forever in merit parties.

Add to this the ability to cast Helix spells for massive damage using Klimaform, storm spells and Modus Veritas and you not only have an extremely capable healer, but also a DD. Two slots combined into one.
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#73 Aug 16 2008 at 10:30 AM Rating: Decent
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Eeri wrote:
I wish some people would understand that SCH is not RDM.
SCH is supposed to specialize in both White and Black magic, just not both at the same time.
There is no reason for BLMs to be ******* since they had zero competition in their spot (namely serious Magic damage), even tho there were other 17 jobs.

Still BLM and WHM need some revisiting now, as they are the original Black and White jobs and need an edge over an hybrid.



Wait.. did you just say SCH was a "specialist hybrid"? You don't see a problem with this in terms of game balance?

SCH is a touchy subject, to be honest. Before the update, SCH were terribly weak. They needed a buff desperately to be able to stay in the game. I am not contending this issue. The problem is that the buff they were given put them too close to the line that WHMs and BLMs establish being the "premiere" healers/nukers in FFXI. WHMs don't have the luxury of being able to nuke, nor do BLMs have the luxury of being able to heal, however a SCH can heal just as effectively as a WHM can and by switching Arts, which requires no separate levelling of another job or running to a Mog House to switch jobs, can nuke just as effectively as a BLM.

SCH should be a lot like RDM. A RDM can heal very efficiently, but they still don't have a lot of the options that WHM have unless they /WHM, and even then they don't get a full compliment of status removal spells. They never gain the ability to AoE any status removal spell, and they don't gain access to any Protectra/Shellra higher than Tier II. They never gain the ability to cast any Regen or Raise higher than Tier I. On the BLM side, RDM never gain the ability to cast any nuke higher than Tier III, or get any JA that gives them a 20% boost to their magic damage. Without /BLM, they don't gain access to Sleepga, and they never gain access to Sleepga II. What made RDMs desirable in PT was Refresh, their A+ enfeebling skill, and nearly limitless MP supply with proper management of Convert. Face it.. RDMs were (and perhaps still are) "Refresh whores".

SCH get, in effect, Protectra IV and Shellra IV, a full compliment of status removal spells that they can AoE much more effectively than a WHM, Regen II (that can be AoE), Raise II, all the Tier IV nukes, Sleepga II (with Manifestation), Ebullience for potency increase, incredible DoT with Helix spells, their own form of Refresh in Sublimation, the ability to enhance themselves with Storm spells for weather effects, and Klimaform for increased magic accuracy in conjunction with the aforementioned weather spells. They can do all of this regardless of their subjob choice, which only adds more to the list.

SCH didn't need all that. What they needed was something unique so that WHM and BLM, being specialists, still held a firm grip on the top spot for healing and nuking, however SCH would be desired for their unique things to bring to a PT.
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#74 Aug 16 2008 at 10:37 AM Rating: Decent
Scholar
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3,769 posts
Quote:
SCH should be a lot like RDM.


So take away everything they got and give them regain, so they can be regain whores? Sorry, but that's not a job by itself, that's a single spell you need to level to 75. At least RDM had A enfeebling, convert, and refresh, SCH would just have regain and nothing else!

Actually SCH gets
Quote:
SCH get, in effect, Protectra IV and Shellra IV, a full compliment of status removal spells that they can AoE much more effectively than a WHM, Regen II (that can be AoE), Raise II,

or this
Quote:
all the Tier IV nukes, Sleepga II (with Manifestation), Ebullience for potency increase, incredible DoT with Helix spells, their own form of Refresh in Sublimation, the ability to enhance themselves with Storm spells for weather effects, and Klimaform for increased magic accuracy in conjunction with the aforementioned weather spells. They can do all of this regardless of their subjob choice, which only adds more to the list.

They can't do both at once, and if they try they fail misserably, and fall far behind WHM and BLM. The only way SCH beats WHM or BLM is mp efficiency, over long periods of time, and if they are switching, even just every half hour or so, they didn't have enough time to beat BLM or WHM at anything.

Quote:
Add to this the ability to cast Helix spells for massive damage using Klimaform, storm spells and Modus Veritas and you not only have an extremely capable healer, but also a DD. Two slots combined into one.

Fail arguement is fail. Healing SCH trying to nuke fail at both.

The helixes don't work on anything IT++ or above, since they're almost directly INT based, they MUST have a weather spell up or they do about half damage (and if you're curing with light weather, well, good luck with any nonlight helix), and modus veritas doesn't enhance the damage of helixes at all. (And it's on the same timer as the divine seal/veil you despise.) Not to mention, there can only be one helix on the enemy at once, so any spell casting from the SCH after the first is worthless, if SCH wasn't given tier 4's as everyone seems to believe they shouldn't have. (God forbid there be a second SCH there, he'd be really worthless) Plus, without modus veritas, the monster will probably die before half the damage from the spell is done, making it one of the least mp efficient spells in the game.

"SCH should have just been left with helixes, and left nuking to BLM" is the dumbest arguement this side of creationism. Since you all seem to have realized "And they can nuke, too" is bullsh*t, and have since moved on to "Well they can helix too"

What people don't seem to understand about SCH is the massive freaking limitations of it.

The obvious stratagem recharge everyone seems to ignore on the new effect stratagems. (the non addendum stratagems) I've gone over it, and everyone just ignores it, but hey, doesn't make it not there. (A good SCH can only use his 8 free stratagems/half hour on everything they do combined., as a recap, after 70. And they get @#%^ all before that.)

That SCH has a D skill in all magic skills without an arts up. Yes they should always have one up, but since half your skills stay D, you MUST switch arts to use half your spell list, ignoring for a moment the mp cost, casting/recasting penalties.

The fact that to get half of their spell list they must first use two job abilities, and then another 2 if they want to switch back! For example, you switch to dark arts to cast a helix (since it won't land if you don't) doesn't take stratagems, right, and you can just switch back to light arts? Wrong, you need to use a stratagem to get the -na/raise/reraise spells back! Lets not even get into what it takes to get dispel or tier 4's or sleep 2 then switch back!

The fact that Helices do absolute crap damage without a weather spell first, essentially doubling the cast time and adding 30 more mp to the cost.

The fact that weather boosts essentially don't work until you have sea obi's. (10% chance of a 10% bonus= 1% boost if the random number generator plays in your favor)

The fact that klimaform is only up for 1/3 of the time, if up at all. The fact that klimaform ISN'T magic acc+20, it's magic acc+20 for spells of ONLY the weather effect on the SCH. (Meaning thunderstorm enhances the thunder 4 spell, and nothing else, not drain, not aspir, not sleep, not enfeebles, not cures, not buffs, JUST thunder 4.) That of course means they also must keep a weather spell up or get no buff. (bye bye 60 extra mp other mages don't need to spend!) It also means if they wanted magic acc for another element, they'd need to waste more mp and time casting another weather spell! (Assuming you could even get another weather spell and another nuke off in the time left on klimaform anyway)

SCH has an assload of restrictions, it's not nearly as powerful as people think. Yes, other mage jobs could use buffs, but SCH really isn't so great that it's an outrage. I can maybe understand BLM's outrage, they went from the only magic DD in the game to having competition. But WHM was already competing with RDM and SMN, it's not like before SCH you got instant anon invites and after SCH you get nothing!

Edited, Aug 16th 2008 2:45pm by louispv

Edited, Aug 16th 2008 2:58pm by louispv
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#75 Aug 16 2008 at 2:06 PM Rating: Default
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62 posts
Kaetara wrote:
I don't normally say things like this, but seriously... louispv, you're an absolute idiot.


I will second that motion. Is it just me or does this guy get off listening to himself whine like a 3 yr old.... Ahhhh gotta love morons...</3

Louis if your reading this I made an account instead of just reading forums as i usually do JUST to post to say that. I look forward to hearing you whine when SE nerfs SCH... just for s**ts and giggles^^ Stop trying to play the "SCH doesnt have it so good" BS. at least 89% of FFXI players know its been over done. BLM's literally SEETHE at the sound of SCH. Be glad theres a place for SCH outside of pts, unlike DNC.

Edited, Aug 16th 2008 7:05pm by SukasaOfCarbuncle
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#76 Aug 17 2008 at 4:14 AM Rating: Excellent
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176 posts
Quote:
SCH has an assload of restrictions, it's not nearly as powerful as people think. Yes, other mage jobs could use buffs, but SCH really isn't so great that it's an outrage. I can maybe understand BLM's outrage, they went from the only magic DD in the game to having competition. But WHM was already competing with RDM and SMN, it's not like before SCH you got instant anon invites and after SCH you get nothing!


Strategems should not be thought of as a restriction, but as a benefit. I usually compare it to something like meditate. Let's assume strategems did not exist, but you still had access to light arts, dark arts, and sublimation. You have cure IV, you have regen II, you have a form of refresh, and you have B+ magic skill in every area. This is more than enough to handle healing/enfeebling in a typical exp PT (lol smn can do it).

Once you add strategems into the equation, you have the ability to become the best job at damage prevention. Capped phalanxga and stoneskinga mean that the party takes very little damage from the mob, if any at all. If a mob somehow manages to break through this and actually hurt your PT, then you can still cast cures and regens like everyone else. Did you know that cure III is the most commonly used cure and regen II is the most MP efficient regen spell?

You don't even need Cure V or R3. The purpose of cure V is to cure a large amount of HP with little enmity to the healer. However, if the tank isn't taking a large amount of damage, they're not gonna lose as much hate either and won't need as powerful a cure. SCH's raw cure power is obviously lower than WHM, but their style of main healing (i.e. damage prevention) is generally superior. WHM only gets invited because haste is better than enspells in contributing to higher damage output and faster exp.

Finally, I have a little rant about how to use your charges in exp. Use stoneskinga a lot, especially on nin tanks and merit PTs. Stoneskin blocks 350 damage to everybody and prevents the mob from interrupting their utsusemi while costing far less mp than curing similar amounts of HP. It also creates the sort of buffer you need to rest longer than other main healers. Regen IIga should only be there to bring up party HP after they suffer a big AoE and after you reapply stoneskin. Phalanxga is the spell you cast when your strategem timers are full and you feel like you need to do something. Enspellga should be up full-time, because it's the only thing you can do in whm mode that contributes directly to kill speed. In a typical party, I usually cast stoneskinga once or twice and enspellga once every 3 minutes - keeping an extra charge or 2 handy for emergencies or the dreaded protect/shell rebuff. Most of the time, no one gets hit for awhile, and with a BRD I'm usually sitting on top of a full sublimation stock at near max mp. Ridiculous.

I took war up shortly after I finished SCH to 75 and have partied with many of them on my way there. Frankly, they all suck. Most play it like a whm subjob with only cure spam and use sublimation as an excuse not to rest. Or, they take it upon themselves to nuke their mp down the drain, kind of like those BLUs that spend all their mp on one fight and rest for the entire next fight. Sch is hated because the people that know what it can do are disgusted by how overpowered it is while the majority of those that do lvl it have no clue on how to use it to its full potential.
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#77 Aug 17 2008 at 10:53 AM Rating: Good
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444 posts
Kaetara wrote:
Wait.. did you just say SCH was a "specialist hybrid"? You don't see a problem with this in terms of game balance?


Yes and no (respectively xD).
But what game balance? Is there a game balance in FFXI? Aren't we supposed to work together?
Scholar is FFXI version of the old-style Sage class. This class was supposed to be able to cast both White and Black magic. With no penalties.
But if SE was really to introduce Sage like that, it would have given SCH infinite stratagems. Hence why we only have four.
And we do have penalties if we chose to specialize in White or Black magic. We become incapable of casting high-tier spells of the non active Art, and our proficiency in that school of Magic reaches the bottom of the sea. We still have 1 minute of recast for each of the Arts, so we can't freely switch between them without thinking first.
We can't buff, heal, nuke and debuff as freely as a lot of people think. We have timers and penalties.
It's like if SMN got 4 BloodPact charges, each one with 1 min recast.
It might DD, heal and buff with no penalties, but it would be limited by MP.
Guess what, SCH has MPs too. Yes we have Sublimation, but so has /SCH.
BLM and WHM need an improvement for they are the true specialists, but SCH is not unbalanced.
SCH and DNC are the fruit of really original concepts, way more than BLU, COR and PUP.

The real problem is: there is very very little room for new and unique things in this game that SE can do for all the jobs.
We have: healing, magic damage, melee damage, enhancement, debuffing.
There can be only a given number of combinations between these elements, and after 6 years of life I honestly think we used them all.
SE could have created yet another hybrid ala RDM but we really didn't need that, do we?

There's nothing wrong with SCH imho, and I hope everyone will see this when SE will finally adjust WHM and BLM.

Edited, Aug 17th 2008 9:08pm by Eeri
#78 Aug 17 2008 at 5:32 PM Rating: Decent
Scholar
***
3,769 posts
Quote:
Scholar is FFXI version of the old-style Sage class. This class was supposed to be able to cast both White and Black magic. With no penalties.


Exactly! It has to be better in white and black magic than RDM. Unlike a RDM, SCH can't set themselves up to melee, and do about half the melee damage of a DD job. Unlike RDM, SCH isn't the best tank in the game vs magic spamming enemies, nor is it a respectable tank against everything else. Unlike RDM, they don't have an A+ in enfeebling, and tier 2 enfeebles. (or tier one for that matter) Since they only have white and black magic, they need to be better at it than RDM, and unfortunately, that means being close to the specialists.
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Maybe if we wait long enough, he'll tell us about how he walked barefoot uphill through snow both ways in Uleregand and defeated the evil Snoll Tzar with nothing but a stack of pebbles. Men were men back then. Mithra were men, too, but they don't talk about that.

Mellowy is awesome, now.
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#79 Aug 17 2008 at 11:14 PM Rating: Decent
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2,976 posts
Quote:
Fail arguement is fail. Healing SCH trying to nuke fail at both.

The helixes don't work on anything IT++ or above, since they're almost directly INT based, they MUST have a weather spell up or they do about half damage (and if you're curing with light weather, well, good luck with any nonlight helix), and modus veritas doesn't enhance the damage of helixes at all. (And it's on the same timer as the divine seal/veil you despise.) Not to mention, there can only be one helix on the enemy at once, so any spell casting from the SCH after the first is worthless, if SCH wasn't given tier 4's as everyone seems to believe they shouldn't have. (God forbid there be a second SCH there, he'd be really worthless) Plus, without modus veritas, the monster will probably die before half the damage from the spell is done, making it one of the least mp efficient spells in the game.
I've seen quite consistent damage dealt using Helices on exp mobs. And yes, I know that Modus Veritas doesn't affect damage but it does affect speed, which is more important at higher levels because monster's don't last as long. The ability allows us to get the full damage far easier than waiting on the normal tics. It's not difficult to macro out healing gear for nuke gear, and it takes just a few moments to switch from Light to Dark arts. If your party is going to die in such a short space of time, perhaps it's time to find players who know how to time their shadows better.

Agreed, Modus Veritas is once every ten minutes, but you're playing as a HEALER and should not be expected anything less of. If you were playing as a nuker, you'd use Addendum: Black and blast away with Tier 4's as well.

To illustrate my point on helix damage. I saw an xp mob (Mamool Ja) hit with Cryohelix for around 150 damage. Multiply that by the ten tics you get in a minute and that's a juicy 1500 damage. Modus Veritas doubles that damage, but halves it's duration, letting the Scholar deal heavy damage once every ten minutes for a fraction of the MP of a tier 4 nuke.

Edited, Aug 18th 2008 3:18am by Crystan
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#80 Aug 17 2008 at 11:45 PM Rating: Decent
Scholar
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656 posts
Legendary Thread

My SCH is currently 51, and i Plan on taking it to 75.

I Quit BLM a while back because of the AU exp areas limiting Most merit/exp-to-75 parties as mainly many DD and few mages types.

Quit WHM a while back too because JUST doing WHM stuff was really boring. Kudos to the 5 WHM out there, because I have no idea how they do it every day as career WHM's but a great big pat on the back to you for being there.

Same with BLM, you die up there in sky, sea, etc. and are not guaranted a exp/merit party to regain that lost exp, especially in an event/fight/whatever where many deaths happen and sometimes a RIII just insnt available because of "having to save MP since the battle is still going on." Much respect to you guys too.

I am at 38 WHM and a 39 BLM and quit BLM for mainly the same reason as WHM, along with the fact that once i reach a higher level, ill be forced to solo or BLM manaburn, and I dont find either fun considering I'm not online as much as I used to be.

Sadly SCH is hated for the right reasons, wrong reasons whatever, but Im gonna keep pressing onto 75 because I can finally have some fun again on this game just like I did when I lvl'd THF as my first 75, and COR as my third 75.

If it makes the SCH haters feel any better, ive been 51 for the past three weeks and cant find a PT or form one to save my life because of the lack of tanks/main nuker/healer, etc.

And if it makes the SCH lovers feel any better, I just simply love this job ^ ^

take care everyone.
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#81 Aug 19 2008 at 8:18 AM Rating: Good
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1,011 posts
Holy crap. People are still on this?

I can't say much about black mage, I've never leveled it. But I'm a career white mage. Or at least I was. Leveled scholar, really liked it, but it can be a very complex job to play.

I still prefer white mage if I know I'm 100% main healing. -Enmity control, +Cure Potency, and Cure V. -na ga spells are a rare problem. I know on sch most healers will beat me out on a -na spell to the tank before I get a ga spell out.. and if we have a 1 healer/1 tank in an endgame setup... my -na ga spell will effect 1 or 2 people and have no effect on others.

In a merit party situation.. I can think of Imps and Skoffins. Both of which happen to really spam their moves.. and in most cases.. I'd rather just keep the enspells/stoneskin/phalanx up and single out each -na spell... it's harder to do.. requires more work, but I think more effective.

I pray for a white mage in my endgame ls. Then I can have fun on scholar doing other things like helix's and nuking to some degree. Or maybe focusing more on support.
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#82 Aug 19 2008 at 8:31 PM Rating: Good
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1,996 posts
I look at it this way. If I had to start over right now and wanted to level ONE job that could be a 'difference maker' for my linkshell, what would it be? If you ask 100 people to pick out of rdm, blm, whm, and sch and 90 pick sch, then yeah, objectively it appears to be too powerful. I don't think thats the case though, at least to that degree.


If you really want to see what's going on and what it would take to 'bring sch down a notch', just look at SE's history of buffs and nerfs:

multihit WS nerf which kept everyone from leveling mnk and using relic knuckles

then everyone leveled ranger

ranger nerf

then everyone leveled ninja or war/nin

tp floor removed and dagger damage increased

a few war/nin and ninja went to thf but still not enough

2h buff

now everyone went out and had to level sam, drg, drk, etc

new jobs introduced.....but nobody played them, especially COR

Cor buffs were given a HUGE boost compared to bard songs. Each roll more powerful than TWO songs to go along with 1k slugshots.

new jobs introduced......but nobody played them, especially SCH.

SCH given a huge boost.


Seriously, could it be any more apparent that SE simply nerfs the jobs everyone has at 75 and buffs the 'useless' jobs in order to make perfectionists level yet another job? It has nothing to do with 'balance'. It's all about making someone put in another 3 months to level yet another job and then spend 2 years to acquire gear for that job so they can be 'the best'. Seriously, go look at the +attack numbers that COR can get compared to bard. Are they going to be nerfed because they are better? No chance, because as good as they are nobody plays COR. If anything I bet they get a really nice af2 buff piece in the update just to make more people level it.


So if you really have something against SCH and think its too powerful.....level it. When it becomes the most popular job on the planet SE will swing the nerf bat whether its needed or not just so you will have to make the climb again in order to contribute.
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#83 Aug 20 2008 at 6:52 AM Rating: Good
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7,451 posts
BarberofSeville wrote:

multihit WS nerf which kept everyone from leveling mnk DRG and using relic knuckles Penta Thurst.

then everyone leveled ranger

ranger nerf

then everyone leveled ninja MNK or war/nin

FIFY

Nobody liked MNK back before 2005 because of our low spike damage. The multi-hit WS nerf was more for the DRGs who could spam Penta Thrust at level 49.

However, all the bandwagon RNG came to MNK because the "discovery" of DoT was finally happening in the 6 months or so prior to ToAU.

The more you know! *cue music and logo*

Edited, Aug 20th 2008 10:52am by Acturus
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#84 Aug 20 2008 at 11:44 AM Rating: Decent
Scholar
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3,769 posts
Quote:
then everyone leveled ninja MNK or war/nin


A lot of them went NIN, too. Why level a DD job when you can get a garanteed party invite as a tank that DD's?

Though it was almost all RNG-> BLM and they didn't go BLM-> melees till ToAU and BLM party exclusion.

Edited, Aug 20th 2008 3:43pm by louispv
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Maybe if we wait long enough, he'll tell us about how he walked barefoot uphill through snow both ways in Uleregand and defeated the evil Snoll Tzar with nothing but a stack of pebbles. Men were men back then. Mithra were men, too, but they don't talk about that.

Mellowy is awesome, now.
Quote:
I'm sorry. My hoovercraft is full of Summoners. As soon as I claim a thread, they just flood out and cover the whole place. Slippery suckers, those Summoners.
#85 Aug 21 2008 at 4:59 AM Rating: Default
15 posts
I have both RDM and WHM leveled and hope to level SCH one day after I've seen my hero Momotarutaru shine during Dynamis.
Every job has its pro's and cons but you will get an invite for exp or merits anytime.

People always have an opinion to give about a job that they did not level. Ignore them lol.
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