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Why is SCH hated?Follow

#27 Jul 13 2008 at 3:54 PM Rating: Excellent
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SE actually thought, imo SCH is was RDM was supposed to be.


No, it is not, as red mage comes with decent melee skills and scholar almost has jack in that department. That said, I've been referring to scholar not as scholar, since the skills it comes with go way overboard with what the traditional scholar job class has had in past FFs, as Sage instead.
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#28 Jul 18 2008 at 3:46 AM Rating: Decent
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YashasThoughts wrote:
Kirin Cerb or any other endgame event if I tried to nuke on sch all I would get is a ton of resists.


Well, my SCH isn't 75, but I do know that flat-out nuking HNMs are just one part of BLM not the whole kit and kaboodle. When it comes to EXP, buffs, healing, MP, BCs, etc. SCH makes BLM seem like "oh is that all you got".
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#29 Jul 18 2008 at 3:53 AM Rating: Decent
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xXxNaobixXx wrote:
I think that the ppl that don't care, are the ones that both, understand what scholar really does and can do, AND understand that sch, whm, blm, rdm, ALL have their place, strong points, etc. and thus, know that none of the above are obsolete, they all have their places and uses, and not even a sch can take that from them.


Oh, I don't think the other jobs are completely obsolete. I said all but obsolete, which from my interpretation of the saying means pretty darn close to it.

I mean, personally I think a WHM/SCH would be a better healer than SCH/anything for instance. It's just that FFXI is losing that thar balance in Magetropolis.
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#30 Jul 18 2008 at 4:38 AM Rating: Default
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WHMs need to quit worrying about being replaced by SCH.

Hey, i dont think that'll EVER happen, for the simple reason of teles, R3, and Regen III, along with whm's ability to pump out cure +32% lol. Its just never gonna happen. Anyway, if it does, then it does, but i think SE will do some nerfing/fixing before whm and blm go to waste.
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#31 Jul 18 2008 at 6:40 AM Rating: Decent
lvl the job for yourself and you'll realize it's not as overpowered as you think... whm has almost no competition in the main heal department for years...


there's been how many different jobs that do melee dmg??

it's just another job that PLAYERS are lvling... don't hate the job cause you didn't choose to lvl it like they did...

strategems are a bigger limiting factor than anyone seems to realize..

sure, sch can nuke big, but from a standstill on my blm, i toss up buffs (sskin phx blink pro/shell II) and start nuking freely with gear swaps being the only thing (besides enmity) slowing me down...

get on sch and (i'll use blm comparison first) buff up in light arts (same 5 spells)
change to dark arts, use a strategem for add/black for tier IVs, parsimony for 50% mp cost, oops, now self weather cause i'm toting around obisx8 now i finally get to cast.
in that time, blm could have easily cast 2 spells and started resting again for the next volley. (mind you that you have to consider the extra enmity from all the ja swapping /strategem usage as well...
ok wear more enmity gear, right? now you're sacrificing even more dmg.. add argument about ebullience being too strong on top? now sch has just used 3 charges to get off one tier IV spell...

sublimation is almost moot because you miss out on refresh and you lose sskin durability or mp from regens in order to maintain it.. and sublim. is only ~500mp/10 minutes on sch whereas refresh is 600 without the mp/skin costs..

intense macro management for anyone without a windower, to say the very least.

back to work for me tho.. i'll touch on healer role of sch on my lunch break..
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#32 Jul 18 2008 at 12:11 PM Rating: Good
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ZacheusofGilgamesh wrote:
get on sch and (i'll use blm comparison first) buff up in light arts (same 5 spells)
change to dark arts, use a strategem for add/black for tier IVs, parsimony for 50% mp cost, oops, now self weather cause i'm toting around obisx8 now i finally get to cast.
in that time, blm could have easily cast 2 spells and started resting again for the next volley. (mind you that you have to consider the extra enmity from all the ja swapping /strategem usage as well...
ok wear more enmity gear, right? now you're sacrificing even more dmg.. add argument about ebullience being too strong on top? now sch has just used 3 charges to get off one tier IV spell...


Assuming there's no cool down involved in your scenario (which would be a bogus comparison anyway for this scenario), JAs are instant. SCH popping Light Arts and buffing is only MARGINALLY slower than BLM/RDM buffing.

Now, you got 3 JA's to hit before you start nuking. Which two can easily be combined into one in the first place. If it really takes you that much longer, I suggest SCH isn't the issue. Sure, it may add a few SECONDS before you start casting, but the fact SCH can fire off more nukes with the same MP pool before they have to rest more than makes up for it. Ya know, because while that quick to cast BLM is resting before you do, you're still nuking.

Think about it.

Edited, Jul 18th 2008 3:12pm by Jereth
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#33 Jul 18 2008 at 6:52 PM Rating: Decent
jareth wrote:
Assuming there's no cool down involved in your scenario (which would be a bogus comparison anyway for this scenario), JAs are instant. SCH popping Light Arts and buffing is only MARGINALLY slower than BLM/RDM buffing.

Now, you got 3 JA's to hit before you start nuking. Which two can easily be combined into one in the first place. If it really takes you that much longer, I suggest SCH isn't the issue. Sure, it may add a few SECONDS before you start casting, but the fact SCH can fire off more nukes with the same MP pool before they have to rest more than makes up for it. Ya know, because while that quick to cast BLM is resting before you do, you're still nuking.

Think about it.


now you think about it... those 3 JAs add enmity and us strategems... the biggest argument against sch is they're overpowered because of the charges they can use.. they are more limiting than people that haven't lvl'd sch.. realize..
yes, you can blink out the jas, but when you use light arts to put up buffs (otherwise 20% more cast time and mp cost) u have to use another charge to put add/black back up. then use a charge for whatever it is you're doing...

the argument against sch being able to switch roles at the flip of a switch is still ENTIRELY limited by charges and more importantly enmity. by the sounds of your argument, you're using very non resistant mobs to compare sch to blm... fine, but i'm assuming you're very aware that the amount of effort and time spent to ready a decent nuke on harder mobs (applying weather and klimaform takes significantly longer (3min recast on klima and 37mp cost on weather that wears off every 3 mins and klima that wears off after 1 min)

sch just will not compare in endgame when the big nukes are needed 'NOW'

yes, sch can (if given the right amount of prep time) take just about any 1 spell in their ******** and cast it better than any other job in FFXI in at least 80% of the game.

however, it comes at a cost, and that cost is larger and more limited than people truly realize.
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#34 Jul 19 2008 at 3:13 PM Rating: Decent
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ZacheusofGilgamesh wrote:
now you think about it... those 3 JAs add enmity and us strategems... the biggest argument against sch is they're overpowered because of the charges they can use.. they are more limiting than people that haven't lvl'd sch.. realize..
yes, you can blink out the jas, but when you use light arts to put up buffs (otherwise 20% more cast time and mp cost) u have to use another charge to put add/black back up. then use a charge for whatever it is you're doing...

the argument against sch being able to switch roles at the flip of a switch is still ENTIRELY limited by charges and more importantly enmity. by the sounds of your argument, you're using very non resistant mobs to compare sch to blm... fine, but i'm assuming you're very aware that the amount of effort and time spent to ready a decent nuke on harder mobs (applying weather and klimaform takes significantly longer (3min recast on klima and 37mp cost on weather that wears off every 3 mins and klima that wears off after 1 min)


Your argument was the time factor and enmity.

I addressed the time factor only because that was only issue worth addressing. I didn't bother with enmity because it's moot. Even on BLM I can stack up a lot of enmity minus gear and pull hate with one nuke in a pt just as easy. Nukes get hate, JAs get hate, either way you're getting hate, end of story.

I'm referring to non HNM/Gods here, as my first post would suggest. And I assume you're aware of the posts of SCH out-parsing BLMs and even the post on this board that speaks of doing not too shabby on JoL.

Now, nobody ever said SCH can flip rolls every 3 seconds to healer and nuker all day long. But they can flip roles by tossing a couple of JAs without having to change jobs to cater to circumstances as needed. They are two jobs in one really and no where near as gimped as RDM (if you think SCH can't nuke, try RDM lol) when it comes to the nuking side of it AND the healing side of it (minus haste). But, you act like we talk about flipping roles at the drop of a hat. Well, at least I'm not, but you can flip if you need to.

I don't think SCH is evil. Mine's 21, and I'm taking it to 37 for RDM, and I very well may take it to 75. I gotta level /DRK and /BLU for RDM first though. Personally, I don't hate SCH, but things aren't quite as balanced as they used to be when a SCH can outparse a BLM except with gods et al.

Remember, BLM is a specialty nuker here. Not a general purpose job. So, if you call that balance, then I'd also like Utsesumi: San, Silence, Dokumori: Ni, and Jubaku: Ni on my NIN while we're at it and DRKs should get tp as quick as SAM.

Edited, Jul 24th 2008 1:24pm by Jereth
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#35 Jul 20 2008 at 7:43 PM Rating: Decent
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OK I am a 75 BLM and I am leveling SCH (Only 13 right now).

Really I do not have a problem with SCH, I like it but the resists from mobs are awfull. The only SCH I have seen outdamage me is one with the Elemental Obi's and thats because he can throw weather up on him self. I am sure if I had the Obi's I would easily have matched his damage or done more than he was.

All SCH does for me is highlight how bad BLM has become over the years.

Right now for 90% of the game we are a forgotten and unwanted class. Whilst our initital damage out shines everyone, our damage over time SUCKS, it sucks BAD that combined with our MASSIVE downtime from resting has just removed us from most of the game it is that simple.

Not only that but SE seems to punish us for the fact that we are BLM because of what BLM can do in a group. Basicly the do not know how to handle the damage output from a large group of BLM mages so they nerf the individual BLM to try and solve the problem.

What BLM really needs right now is a massive removal of there downtime (More hMP and maybe Refresh too), maybe a small damage increase and conserve MP kicking in 100% of the time. I think that would likey see us re-invited to PTs.
#36 Jul 20 2008 at 9:34 PM Rating: Decent
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ZacheusofGilgamesh wrote:
now you think about it... those 3 JAs add enmity and us strategems... the biggest argument against sch is they're overpowered because of the charges they can use.. they are more limiting than people that haven't lvl'd sch.. realize..
yes, you can blink out the jas, but when you use light arts to put up buffs (otherwise 20% more cast time and mp cost) u have to use another charge to put add/black back up. then use a charge for whatever it is you're doing...

the argument against sch being able to switch roles at the flip of a switch is still ENTIRELY limited by charges and more importantly enmity. by the sounds of your argument, you're using very non resistant mobs to compare sch to blm... fine, but i'm assuming you're very aware that the amount of effort and time spent to ready a decent nuke on harder mobs (applying weather and klimaform takes significantly longer (3min recast on klima and 37mp cost on weather that wears off every 3 mins and klima that wears off after 1 min)

sch just will not compare in endgame when the big nukes are needed 'NOW'

yes, sch can (if given the right amount of prep time) take just about any 1 spell in their ******** and cast it better than any other job in FFXI in at least 80% of the game.

however, it comes at a cost, and that cost is larger and more limited than people truly realize.


Dude.. ok.. I need to remain civil and not lash out here...

Allow me to whip out a calculator and do some quick math.. {/sigh}, I thought we were past the need for this stupidity..

SCH/RDM gains Fast Cast II, which grants casting time -15%.

Stoneskin
Spell cost: 29 MP
Casting time: 7 seconds

29 MP increased by 20% results in 34.8MP spent. We'll assume SE rounds up. You spend 35mp per Stoneskin, a 6 point increase.

Base cast time of 7.0 seconds reduced by 15%: (7*0.15) = 1.05 seconds reduced, for a casting time of 5.95 seconds. Apply the penalty for being in Dark Arts and you get (5.95*0.20) = 1.19 seconds penalty, resulting in a finishing cast time of 7.14 seconds.

Really, is a 6 MP increase to spell cost and 0.14 second increase to casting time THAT much of a penalty to have to deal with? Blink and Phalanx will be even more negligible, since the MP cost and casting time is less than Stoneskin.

Now, let's take a look at Thunder IV!

Thunder IV
Spell cost: 171 MP
Casting time: Irrelevant

Being in Dark Arts grants a 10% reduction to MP cost! {All right!}

(171*0.10) = 17.1 MP saved, reducing the cost (without Parsimony) to 153.9. Assuming SE rounds up, you cast Thunder IV for 154mp, as opposed to 171. But that's not all!

(154*0.50) = 77 MP! That results in a net reduction of 94mp from the spell cost. This is MUCH more noticable than a 6mp penalty for casting Stoneskin while under Dark Arts.

If you still think that SCH is required to swap back into Light Arts to rebuff then you must be daft.


If you're not retarded and don't try to swap between Arts just for things like Stoneskin/Blink/Phalanx and just take the penalty, the strategem charge "limitation" is almost completely irrelevant. Yeah, you can't just blow a huge wad using Ebullience and Parsimony and Celerity on every single spell, but you can easily work with what you have to get chain 5 and 6 on Ebony Puddings solo. The only thing stopping you from being able to chain higher is your kill speed.


YashasThoughts wrote:
Sch in no way at all steps on the toes of RDM or BLM period at things like Kirin Cerb or any other endgame event if I tried to nuke on sch all I would get is a ton of resists.


BLM on Kirin? {I don't understand.} BLM on Cerberus? {Thanks for the offer, but I'll have to pass.}

Most people just throw a bunch of melees at Kirin and drop him in less than a minute before he has a chance to start summoning his buddies these days. As for Cerberus, he's highly resistant to elemental magic anyway, meaning BLMs hardly even have a place there. Same thing goes for Khimaira, as well.

At any rate, every single BLM that has ever brought any argument to bear that SCH is overpowered has admitted that SCH can't do diddly against endgame HNMs when it comes to nuking power! Get that through your thick skull. However, it is almost inevitable that with future updates SCH will be able, with gear and merits, to break the elemental skill required to nuke effectively. Until then, in any mid-game situation, SCH completely trounces BLM in MP efficiency, which means they get to deal more damage on a single MP pool than a BLM can.

Remember, damage/mp is more important than damage/spell.


xXxNaobixXx wrote:
I think that the ppl that don't care, are the ones that both, understand what scholar really does and can do, AND understand that sch, whm, blm, rdm, ALL have their place, strong points, etc. and thus, know that none of the above are obsolete, they all have their places and uses, and not even a sch can take that from them.


I hate to keep bringing him up, but Kaeko has already mentioned that, were he a developer, he would believe a nerf is in order for SCH. He doesn't really care simply because he has BLM and SCH levelled and can swap to whichever job suits him more, but he has been using SCH very much in endgame and has enough experience to know what he's talking about.

SCH can nuke almost as effectively as a BLM while offering a LOT more versatility. That's why BLMs everywhere are annoyed.
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#37 Jul 21 2008 at 12:42 AM Rating: Decent
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you can easily work with what you have to get chain 5 and 6 on Ebony Puddings solo.


Finally figured it out... I finally get why Blms hate sch so much... Epeen Envy while soloing is not a good reason to hate a job.

No but Seriously the limitation on Strategems is much more significant than you care to admit and then you have the audacity to call someone daft who plays the job for telling you a FACT. you say the strat cost is irrelevant your example fails and hard. So I will give you a better one.

Party mount z... lets face it everyone there probably knows you and will invite you to not have to compete for monsters... Right?

Sch
Blm
Blm
Blm

Start of fight light arts addendum white... why addendum white for RRII oh yea then youre gonna blow another charge to shellIV your pty if youre competent oh wait then another for which ever weather spell EVERYONE wants .... thats what III charges there correct.... well time to nuke Dark arts addendum black wait wait wait that all 4.... ok ok ok for arguments sake lets say you cast rr II before you got to camp so you only blew through III charges well hmmm lets see first nuke /ja "Ebullience" right right because we have to get big numbers to show up all the long term blms right..... actually ..... NO.

Sorry for the rant but im sick of whiney **** blms coming to the sch forums and complaining that were overpowered when they dont even have the job to sub levels... go level the job to 75 and see for yourselves or shut up. You dont see us posting on your forums calling you gimp.... SE added a new flavor of Kool Aid enjoy it. Were the Sam to your War just another form of the same deal with it ........ or quit.

Edited, Jul 21st 2008 4:44am by YashasThoughts
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#38 Jul 21 2008 at 3:54 AM Rating: Decent
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In light of all this, people sure love me as a SCH :o. I went from 62 to 67 without seeking. People would just send me an invite. The two times I partied with a BLM. I turned them into a nuking machine with storm spells. I've had BLMs do 545 Aero IIIs and 700 Thunder IIIs. 636 Blizzard IIIs. (Nevermind that I've done a 709 blizzard III. Only because of Hailstorm + Ebullance)

I can only imagine what I can do for them with storm spells + tier IVs. BLMs should try to remember, Dark Arts is dead outside of Mount Z and a.subterraine. We suffer the effects of the antinuke attitude from SE too.
#39 Jul 21 2008 at 6:46 AM Rating: Default
rational thinking seems to only be coming from those who have at least lvld scholar to at least 40+

one thing that keeps getting miscalculated is the mp50% JAs penury and parsimony

they don't -50% on top of the 10% already given
spell cost w/out arts/2 NOT spell cost -10% then/2

1 minute recast on strategems, yes, but they don't recharge individually, they are all on a stacked timer; use 4 charges, wait 4 minutes to get all 4 back.

spell casting times 20% penalty is on top of normal casting time (when using the wrong arts) the 15% is cut off the top of that.. it's noticeable without timing it.

any competent sch will be buffing the blms with weather too, that uses up more of our mp

pro/shell IV there goes some more

sublimation is nearly moot(except when you have it charged at the start of a fight) considering ur sskin takes the hit for getting mp back and you need to recast it and cure yourself when an AoE does rip thru ur weak sskin from sublimation eating it.

yea regen is more mp efficient, but more than likely, not applicable in most cases and you'll be using 20% extra mp fee on top of cure II/IIIs

blm can be much more fluidly played while sch has to fumble with many extra macros (those of you who haven't lvld sch don't even bother arguing this)

yea, blm needs to rest more often, but will land spells harder and faster than a scholar ever will. imo a sch that isn't resting when all 4 charges are used up is somewhat of a waste anyways, so they need to rest too. and are more limited because of this (in order to achieve the whined about mp efficiency)

stop the hate, sch still has to put up with the we don't want nukers.

stun cycle still is a large nich that blm fills as well, sch/drk is not very viable for this, please don't go there.

prolly leaving stuff out, but break's over..

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#40Acturus, Posted: Jul 21 2008 at 8:15 AM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) /thread
#41 Jul 21 2008 at 8:25 AM Rating: Good
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YashasThoughts wrote:

Sch
Blm
Blm
Blm

Start of fight light arts addendum white... why addendum white for RRII


I was unaware you had to cast that every four minutes.

Quote:
oh yea then youre gonna blow another charge to shellIV your pty if youre competent


Uh-huh... And you're replacing a half hour duration buff every four minutes, amirite?

Quote:
oh wait then another for which ever weather spell EVERYONE wants .... thats what III charges there correct....


It lasts three minutes. That means ONE of your precious four charges needs to be devoted to weather, which is also helping you. Waaaaah.

Quote:
well time to nuke Dark arts addendum black wait wait wait that all 4.... ok ok ok for arguments sake lets say you cast rr II before you got to camp so you only blew through III charges well hmmm lets see first nuke /ja "Ebullience" right right because we have to get big numbers to show up all the long term blms right..... actually ..... NO.


Strategems that aren't parsimony are not what you want to use.

Quote:
Sorry for the rant but im sick of whiney **** blms coming to the sch forums and complaining that were overpowered when they dont even have the job to sub levels... go level the job to 75 and see for yourselves or shut up. You dont see us posting on your forums calling you gimp.... SE added a new flavor of Kool Aid enjoy it. Were the Sam to your War just another form of the same deal with it ........ or quit.


The difference is, the job IS overpowered. You want to argue that you're "not as strong" as a BLM, but the fact is, it's not all about damage/nuke. SCH's MP efficiency is insane. Pure madness.

It's overpowered in other ways, as well. SCH's status removal ability makes my WHM cry.

But wait, I just mentioned SCHs doing two different things in the same post, so, someone's going to be like, "BUT THEY CAN'T DO BOTH AT THE SAME TIME! CHARGES LIMITATION!" and feel like they've really outsmarted me.

The issue with SCH isn't that it can do all of them at the same time, because it can't. The issue is that the job is so maddeningly versatile that it's game-breaking. You nuke better than BLMs, and you remove status effects better than WHMs.

The job is broken.
#42 Jul 21 2008 at 9:14 AM Rating: Decent
stop using the pudding camp as comparison for blm vs sch.


the charges limitation even exists when sch/rdm is not buffing members etc, so stop saying that it's not a limitation when you haven't lvld the job..

mind you, that in order to buff blms with weather (every 3 minutes) klimaform (every 3 minutes) to keep only these 2 buffs up (you'll need to swap to light arts to gain access to accession) then use another charge each cycle to get addendum black back up (that's 3 charges every three minutes, leaving 1 charge for a scholar to use parsimony for a single mp efficient nuke every four minutes...

sch that aren't doing this are gimping the party they are in.

i'm pretty sure that a large majority of the scholars out there outparsing the blms are career blms using the best of their gear and macro skills in order to maximize and make their blm brethren cry bloody murder.
even with the newly added numerist pumps, sch still falls short of the 320/120 mark

even when they do hit that mark (read above again) they'll still be limited to 1 parsimonied nuke/4 minutes.

now, as you can see from my sig, I have several mage jobs to bring to an event yet i'm still being asked to come blm to everything except einerjhar unless some rdms can't show up, and i come as that sometimes. imo besides hastega, smns should be alot more ****** than the blms are except for the fact that they're less relied on for BP:ward and more often invited for their BP:rage since the scholar update. (yay for smns)

if there's a stun order for a big fight, i'll be blm everytime (besides CSstun situations) my whm is 65 still, but here's where i see the issue of whm's whining and for now i can justify that at least a little bit. As an admin of my current linkshell, I still see myself preferring blms for the dual purpose of stuns and nuking while being quite self sufficient (more acc on aspir and drains is bigger than you think (if you have the skill gear too).

rdm will always be the #1 support for a party with it's huge mp efficiency (can /sch too for even better results and a side note of attaining 320/120 with /sch)

events with large amounts of crowd control, sch will be asked to save charges for bind/gravity (in order for this to be effective 2 charges per cast [alacrity & manifestation will be used) blm will still be relied upon (as well as rdm) for sleepgas and let's not forget the new whm toy, repose.

hate free dmg over a really long fight? yep, smn still has a niche to fill there too with physical BP and merit BPs too (blm /logout /snore)



the thing is, in a well organized shell, sch will NOT be asked to be a nuker as there are plenty of capable blms out there for this duty. will they back-up nuke when crowd control and backup healing is under control? yes, as would any GOOD rdm. (mag acc merits AND now with /sch being capable of the 320/120 cap that blms swear by)

if you're replaced by a sch in your LS (for a nuking position) chances are, your blm or your blm's gear, sucks. fix it and stop ranting on the forums.

pick apart my post, I welcome it. I'll proceed to come back and point out where your argument needs some work and we'll start over :)

thanks for reading
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#43 Jul 21 2008 at 9:41 AM Rating: Excellent
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One thing I see being overlooked here is playstyle...

There are quite a few posts that try to make their point as to why SCH is or isn't overpowered that use different spell orders or focus on different buffs. How you choose to play SCH will either highlight it's strengths or its weaknesses (yes it has weaknesses). I'll try to give some examples...

Someone mentioned the idea of having to constantly buff while nuking and it wastes charges. This is a very good example of how I would recommend NOT to play Scholar. The more you switch between Light Arts and Dark Arts, the less efficient you become. If you want to be a buffer, then buff. If you want to nuke then nuke! If you constantly switch, your efficiency lowers drastically due to wasted charges.

Scholar is very versatile in that it can be an excellent buffer or a very capable nuker (while being very efficient MP wise in either type); however, you have to pick which you want to be at an event! You can't do both at the same time. I rarely ever switch Arts at an event... I'm either a healer or a DD and it's chosen before the fight starts. If someone important dies in 1 role, I can quickly switch to the other and act as a temporary or even full replacement - that is the benefit of having a SCH.

One example is on Ixion with low #s, I use SCH as a full time main healer due to MP efficiency coupled with extreme amounts of enmity down gear (spam cure 4). If we're in a bad zone like say Grauberg, I may have to quickly kill an Elemental at the beginning. I can quickly switch to Dark Arts, kill the Elemental with nukes (you rarely see BLMs on Ixion and melee can't quickly kill elementals - SCH is pretty much the only magic damage in a typical Ixion setup), then switch back to full time healing again in Light Arts. I'm basically only switching from Light to Dark or vice versa at the beginning (choosing my role), when someone in the opposite role falls and needs to be replaced, or in emergencies like quickly killing adds. I'm not changing roles all the time... it's not efficient.

If you choose to play SCH in a fashion which has you constantly changing Dark and Light Arts in normal play during fights, you will find yourself extremely limited by your Charge count and Arts recast timer. However, if you pre-define, or just have an idea of your main starting role and stick to that Art, you'll find yourself extremely MP efficient and unique. In the event of an emergency or bad death on an important player, you can easily switch over. Switching roles on SCH is not something you want to do often since it costs charges, but it can be extremely useful if you know when to switch.

Define the role of your SCH first. This will dictate your style of play and your use of both Arts. After that, you can work on your playstyle - hopefully one which highlights the strengths of SCH, not its weaknesses. Personally, my SCH is almost always in a buffer/healer role at events; if something bad happens like an add, I can switch to Dark Arts and quickly fix it (especially with 2hr, which is much stronger when using Dark rather than Light Arts in my opinion). My resist rates are too high to be useful as a full time nuker, but SCH is good at handling non-HNM mobs like adds. I'll main role in Dark Arts for soloing and manaburn setups usually, but then fall back to Light Arts if we need to stop DD due to death issues or something of that sort. Again, I'm pre-defining my role, but realizing I can switch if the situation dictates - I'm not wildly switching roles in normal play!

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Also to compare BLM and SCH. In events, it's better to Horde BLMs rather than SCHs. Think of it like increasing and diminishing returns. If you have to pick just ONE of either, SCH probably fits better. If you have to pick 6, you'd want more BLMs than SCHs. You start to get alot of redundency with multiple SCHs, but you can never have enough Stuns from BLMs usually. Also, Ga3 is more potent with more BLMs. Scholar isn't going to replace BLM on HNM and key events because SCH has like diminishing returns when you add too many while BLM is like the opposite. When you compare the jobs individually, and not in bulk, SCH is a stronger job though in my opinion.

Long Post ;o

Edited, Jul 21st 2008 1:46pm by Kaeko
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#44 Jul 21 2008 at 10:23 AM Rating: Excellent
I admit I was seeing red when scholar first came out. As a whitemage I was already feeling the squeeze of Merit Parties in TOAU harping the virtue of ONE MAGE, FIVE MELEE mentality. In case you've been living under a rock, that one mage is hardly ever a whitemage. I was already feeling like my whole body of time leveling and gearing and learning how to be a whitemage was time wasted because all anyone seemed to want of me was Raise III and teleporation. Then Scholar came out at the height of that feeling, and all seemed lost.

However, I don't blame scholars for being scholars. My anger was directed at SE for not supporting the jobs it origenally came out with in light of all this new candy - dandy "be everything" jobs it recently started adding (bluemage, scholar, corsair, dancer).

I have been leveling Scholar myself, its 37 now, and a sub it to my whitemage now about half the time I am doing things (the other half of the time I still use /smn because it does have its own advantages in certain situations). I think its fun to level, because it is like leveling whitemage and blackmage at once sort of (and I leveled blackmage and whitemage already so it's a little bit nostalgic and allows me to keep playing a mage).

I'm not against the job's abilities, but I do feel like SE owes something more to the mage jobs being left behind. There's a lot of things they could do to balance things out, or offer advantages to jobs that have been around since the beginning. They haven't done any of them really. I don't think merited ablities count for balancing either - because the whole game isn't just what you can do at level 75, its what you can do on the way up, and how well you can merit an invite to parties TO come up the levels, and feeling like you're doing something worthwhile when you do. Sure, I love my Devotion (10 min timer is nice, but its almost 25 merits to get there - that's 250,000 xp - a long time to wait and a lot of work for an ability you still at best can only use ever 10 minutes) I hate that Divine Veil and Seal are on the same timer. Its ridiculous that the abilities have to share like that - you're essentially giving up one for the other every time, and its never enough to really make the difference - because most monsters that AoE status SPAM that and 1 group removal ever 10 minutes is a tease more than it is an ability.

So...yes, when I see a scholar do it ever other moment ... I do feel sad that my best isn't enough to match something effortless by another job. It does make me a little resentful - but again, not towards the Scholar in question, towards SE for forgetting about the rest of us.
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#45 Jul 21 2008 at 10:36 AM Rating: Decent
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I think that one of the remaining saving graces for WHM is haste. Scholar doesn't have Haste, and for that reason, it limits the amount of people who would take a SCH instead of a WHM (subbed SCH, perhaps), in those "1 mage, 5 melee" parties.

But yeah, I think WHM does need to get something.
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#46 Jul 28 2008 at 9:56 AM Rating: Good
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Quote:
I think that one of the remaining saving graces for WHM is haste. Scholar doesn't have Haste, and for that reason, it limits the amount of people who would take a SCH instead of a WHM (subbed SCH, perhaps), in those "1 mage, 5 melee" parties.
Unfortunatley, Haste is easily replaced in a RDM-healed party who would have Convert and Refresh to boot. White Mage's were heavily redundant in merit parties before SCH even walked through the door, and now we're superceeded even further thanks to a near-permanent Divine Veil and superior buffs (Stoneskin/Phalanxga). The few things white mage had to their name (Namely Raise III, Haste and Cure V) can be done by either RDM or SCH for far easier parties, and SCH get's capable nukes as well.

A big one on the WHM hit-list can be obtained by any 40+ SCH, Regenga, putting WHM's on the endangered species list. All said and done, SCH really is the king of both BLM and WHM with their only downsides being a short recast timer for their Strategems.

Quote:
if you're replaced by a sch in your LS (for a nuking position) chances are, your blm or your blm's gear, sucks. fix it and stop ranting on the forums.
A few points that should be made here. Firstly SCH gets helices which can deal as much damage as AMII magic spells (BLM Merit abilities) using Modus Veritas, and obtains those long before 75 comes around. Secondly, they can permanently alter the weather effects around them for a constant 10% damage burst to every spell they cast with the corresponding Obi equipped (On top of any day bonus). The only place they may suffer on are some HNMs where the drop in Elemental Skill becomes far more apparent. But make no mistake, a Scholar can and often does closely match a BLM for nuke damage.

It's no surprise my next level 75 mage will be a Scholar.

Edited, Jul 28th 2008 2:03pm by Crystan
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#47 Aug 09 2008 at 1:37 AM Rating: Good
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So how many of you that do not have SCH leveled have been kicked out of your event LS's or been told to stay in your MH because they found a SCH to replace you?

I'll admit that SCH is a very flexible and strong job. Through my experience though, it does infact have its limitations. For each strength there is a weakness, for every inch of flexibility there there are restrictions.

The hating starts with the people that completely ignore the negative aspects of the job, coincidentally usually people that haven't leveled to 40 if at all. Stratagems get burned up a lot faster than you think. Putting up buffs at the beginning of a PT may seem like a small thing, but you find yourself chasing your timers and tryin to keep up until someone has to **** and you get a 4+min break. After that you usually just start the cycle again. Blah blah blah, blah blah (Four more paragraphs you won't read because you don't agree with it.)

In the end it really doesn't make a difference if SCH is better at something than X-Job. None of you have a signed contract from SE stating you will forever reign supreme at w/e it is that you do. Not all new jobs have to be crappy just so you can feel better for yourself. I can't wait until another expansion and I hope it has even stronger jobs. -

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Firstly SCH gets helices which can deal as much damage as AMII magic spells (BLM Merit abilities) using Modus Veritas

If dINT checks out in our favor we can out damage AM2. Basically a very weak mob. Also Modus Veritas does not add damage to a Helix. It speeds up the damage over time. ie Twice as much DMG per tick, but with half the duration.

Edited, Aug 9th 2008 9:41am by Kilnor
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#48 Aug 09 2008 at 5:50 AM Rating: Good
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I'll admit that SCH is a very flexible and strong job. Through my experience though, it does infact have its limitations. For each strength there is a weakness, for every inch of flexibility there there are restrictions


At 75, scholar's main weakness is that it doesn't get invited to merit PTs as often due to lack of haste. Other than that, scholar is a little more difficult to play compared to the other mage jobs due to using very versatile JAs in conjunction with the largest active spell list in the game.

You could argue that the job is very dependent upon it's support job for buffs and enfeebles and that strategem timers are a limitation, but once you hit level 68 you have every spell that matters with rdm sub. Also, once you hit 70, strategem timers are cut to an almost negligible 1 minute. Then, you quickly start learning R2, RR2, and tier4 nukes. It almost made me feel guilty for having them.

Scholar isn't necessarily weak before those levels either. It has enough magic skill to land spells reliably on anything if you're not overcamping. Sublimation makes it independent of the need for refresh. It has early access to both erase and dispel, and a few powerful tricks like accession + regen II and enspellgas. Throughout it's entire lvling career, scholar is the 2nd best enfeebler, nuker, and (arguably) healer.

There are no significant weaknesses. The only people that will be replaced by SCH are the ones with other mage jobs who actually lvl it. I inadvertently replaced my own BLM for everything but JoL, dynamis-xarcabard, and transportation.
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#49 Aug 09 2008 at 10:07 AM Rating: Decent
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Quote:
Unfortunatley, Haste is easily replaced in a RDM-healed party who would have Convert and Refresh to boot. White Mage's were heavily redundant in merit parties before SCH even walked through the door, and now we're superceeded even further thanks to a near-permanent Divine Veil and superior buffs (Stoneskin/Phalanxga). The few things white mage had to their name (Namely Raise III, Haste and Cure V) can be done by either RDM or SCH for far easier parties, and SCH get's capable nukes as well.


See that's where you're wrong. A SCH will be keeping at the least stoneskinga, an enspellga, and either regen2 ga or phalanxga depending on party set up. Those are 3 minute duration buffs. Meaning every stratagem is already used. At one minute recast on stratagems, every single one is used to keep those 3 up already. Therefore, they can't use status effect removal-gas, or one of those buffs will drop, and SCH really needs them all to keep up with WHM as a healer. (Need an enspellga for more damage since they have no haste, need stoneskinga since their regens are weaker and again because of no haste for utsu recasts. And it's even MORE important if there's melees not subbing NIN, along with phalanxga.)

So really they only get EITHER superior buffs (which I'd argue, since haste alone replaces enspellgas AND stoneskinga in functionality) OR status effect removal-gas at the cost of their healing ability. And if they need a curaga, whoo there goes even more buffs and -na-gas!

Really, WHM could use -ga versions of -na spells, but since they get everything SCH gets by subbing SCH, they really aren't threatened by SCH at all. A WHM/SCH nowadays can heal a merit party just as well as a RDM can, as soon as they hit 75. (as opposed to after a bunch of merits and relic body aquisition before) Thanks for the fantastic subjob Square!
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#50 Aug 09 2008 at 10:30 AM Rating: Excellent
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Scholar continues to be a hot debate topic, with it's refined ability for versatility which superceeds any job to date. The problem to answer towards the OP's question is that people react to Scholar in different lights. Unfortunately there are some who lash out directly at Scholar job players for something not within their control. This is not right and I honestly think Scholar needed it's abilities to become an asset to the now 20 jobs.

The problem all the Scholars need to see, which I see a lot of people just blindly taking direct offense and defending is that yes Scholar is the focus of some hatred at the moment. For the most part while it seems like some direct bigotry towards the Scholar base, it's towards Square-Enix for the manner of which things were implemented.

Most of the FFXI mage player base will agree that Scholar indeed needed something. I played it before the update and it drove me insane leveling it, especially soloing. Most players are fine with Scholar's ability and while some call current their abilities and update overpowered, it's in direct correlation to what was given to other jobs. (well I only speak for most >.>)

I do agree that Scholar has received a lot of unfair comments and bias nature toward the job. Most of this is from little content being added to the other jobs broken areas for years and there is some envy and resentment. Definitely a needed update to Scholar, just unfair to the other jobs who've waited for years to be back in their prime.

Hopefully Square-Enix used this time to monitor the exact differences they need to make up in the other mages. While some Scholar's here believe the game in the mage world is fine as it is, the truth they need to swallow is that it isn't. That the prior mage jobs do need to be rebalanced so that each job plays their part completely clear and have their own individual strengths. Enough of the "you can gather up 10 BLMs vs. 10 SCHs.."or "in this <insert specific event> SCH can't match <insert mage job>" or "but <insert mage job> gets <insert merit ability>", which aren't even valid debates.

The point is to my insanely long post is that each job wants to feel specific and unique from 1-75 which indeed needs to be rebalanced. Some are taking offense to being a job that forced rebalancing of other mages but get over it, it's an MMORPG, it happens. Scholar's also should not receive the heat for what great assets they are because it was a necessity to make them a viable component of the game.
#51 Aug 14 2008 at 1:30 AM Rating: Good
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Really, WHM could use -ga versions of -na spells, but since they get everything SCH gets by subbing SCH, they really aren't threatened by SCH at all.
I'm just surprised anyone is actually thinking that this fix is coming after the release of Yagrush. There is no fix to Na spells coming for WHM. A relic weapon WHM can outdo a SCH in status removal, otherwise SE just crowned SCH the king of the Na spells despite the fact that they don't even get them without an Addendum. Last I checked, 16 WHMs had Mjollnir in the last census. It's also just ironic as **** considering the new relic weapons "enhance each jobs signature ability," and ours is 10x weaker than your non-signature ability lol. I wonder what you guys get for your weapon.

And we don't get everything a SCH has by subbing SCH. We don't get 10% Cure Potency from Aurorastorm. We don't get Phalanxga, Blinkga and Stoneskinga. We don't get Regenga and Regenga II. We don't get a 10 fold increase to our Divine Veil ability, which you also get 10 levels earlier than WHM. We don't get the ability to Protectra, Shellra, or Curaga other parties that we're not in. We don't get Rapture, which can boost Banish when we can't, or Cures far more often than Divine Seal .... which is never used since it's on the same timer as Divine Veil.

Oh, and there's that whole helix, Dark Arts, T4 nukes thing too.
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A WHM/SCH nowadays can heal a merit party just as well as a RDM can, as soon as they hit 75. (as opposed to after a bunch of merits and relic body aquisition before) Thanks for the fantastic subjob Square!
It is a great subjob, I think it's funny that's the only thing SE will claim that they planned for the job. Yeah right, it's the only thing they didn't mess up.

Edited, Aug 14th 2008 4:29am by JingWoo
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