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silly Helix questionFollow

#1 Jun 26 2008 at 4:57 AM Rating: Good
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Almost to the point where I can finally wear my torques. Are helix elemental or enfeebling spells ? I would be tempted to say elemental because they look a lot like the BLMs elemental enfeebles ...
#2 Jun 26 2008 at 6:29 AM Rating: Decent
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Elemental Also i think ONLY INT affects it so you wont need torques that give +elemental magic skill. Correct me if im wrong.
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#3 Jun 26 2008 at 7:43 AM Rating: Good
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Quote:
Are helix elemental or enfeebling spells ?


No, they are not considered enfeebling spells. Think of it more like an elemental nuke over time. Heavily effected by Intelligence and Magic Attack Bonus.


Quote:
Elemental Also i think ONLY INT affects it


I'm not saying you're wrong, so please don't take it that way, but I'd just like to add that Magic Attack Bonus also increases dmg on the spell.

So just as an example, I would use Vicious Mufflers over errant/mahatma cuffs, and Uggy Pendant (if its procable) over Enlightened Chain for a lil bit more dmg increase.



Edited, Jul 10th 2008 9:26am by xXxNaobixXx
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#4 Jun 26 2008 at 8:20 AM Rating: Decent
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xXxNaobixXx wrote:
Quote:
Are helix elemental or enfeebling spells ?


No, they are not considered enfeebling spells. Think of it more like an elemental nuke over time. Heavily effected by Intelligence and Magic Attack Bonus.


Quote:
Elemental Also i think ONLY INT affects it


I'm not saying you're wrong, so please don't take it that way, but I'd just like to add that Magic Attack Bonus also increases dmg on the spell.

So just as an example, I would use Vicious Mufflers over errant/mahatma cuffs, and Uggy Pendant (if its procable) over Prudence Torque for a lil bit more dmg increase.

Edited, Jun 26th 2008 8:45am by xXxNaobixXx


Thanks for the input, honestly im only 48 SCH so i havn't had a chance to play around with Helixes yet. I thought only INT+ affected them but i would'nt be surprised if MAB affects it too.
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#5 Jun 26 2008 at 9:47 AM Rating: Decent
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Quote:
Elemental Also i think ONLY INT affects it



Quote:
I'm not saying you're wrong, so please don't take it that way, but I'd just like to add that Magic Attack Bonus also increases dmg on the spell.

So just as an example, I would use Vicious Mufflers over errant/mahatma cuffs, and Uggy Pendant (if its procable) over Prudence Torque for a lil bit more dmg increase.


While INT is the major factor in what unresisted damage a Helix will do, and MAB does affect the damage as well, Elemental Magic skill will affect its resist rate. The more skill you wear for anything the more accurate the spell will be. Think of it as a balancing act. Do you want the +30dmg from your INT if it means -50dmg from your lack of skill?
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#6 Jun 26 2008 at 11:21 AM Rating: Default
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oh wow...such poor information im sorry OP.

helix are elemental nukes, as you can get elemental skill ups by casting them...

also they are heavily affected by int b/c its a straight check between your int and the mob's int. while magic attack *does* help its not enough to equip say...yigit body over errant body or vicious mufflers over errant hands or yigit hands. think of it this way. if magic attack = a % increase of dmg(disputable) and a helix will land for 100-150 depending a 5% increase is only 5 to 7.5 dmg extra.

a simple test: find a weak cheesy mob and cast helix in yigit body, grav it/bind it then cast the same helix in the same gear but switch out the yigit body for errant hpl. while the 5% does increase the dmg(you can cast w/o a body to see the diff) the errant hpl. will far outperform it.

and elemental skill is good to prevent resists but its more likely that if your having problems with that, the mob's int is too high to do much damage in the first place.
#7 Jun 26 2008 at 6:36 PM Rating: Decent
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ok Thanks for the input. Could not test skill ups ( to determine school ) in the first place all magics are capped from other jobs

Thx for input
#8 Jun 27 2008 at 10:46 AM Rating: Excellent
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Quote:
oh wow...such poor information im sorry OP.


Interesting you say this yet only reiterate the exact same information already posted, just more drawn out.

Quote:
while magic attack *does* help its not enough to equip say...yigit body over errant body or vicious mufflers over errant hands or yigit hands.


From the tests i've done in mount zhayolm (sp?) on erucas, wamoura princes, and trolls near the gate, mufflers out dmged errant cuffs, uggy (obviously) out dmged enlightned chain, and of course, Obi out damaged Penitent's Rope.





Edited, Jul 10th 2008 9:27am by xXxNaobixXx
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#9 Jun 27 2008 at 3:58 PM Rating: Decent
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The formula suspected on the wiki is:

((YourINT -1) - EnemyINT) + 25 * Weather Bonus * Magic Attack Bonus)

I don't personally believe this to be completely accurate, but assuming that it's close, as EnemyINT and YourINT get closer, INT is more important than magic attk. For times when there's a great difference then Magic attk is more important.

In most situations where it's worthwhile to actually use a helix, Magic Attk will probably be more important than INT. I'm only level 69 though, and haven't gone out to test with some of the big ticket level 70's gear.
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#10 Jun 28 2008 at 12:03 PM Rating: Decent
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using the forumla on wiki: ((YourINT -1) - EnemyINT) + 25 * Weather Bonus * Magic Attack Bonus) and then adding staff boosts you can start putting real numbers out there to compare. so lets compare errant, vicious mufflers, and yigit respectivly in the same situation.

errant -(120-1-50) +25 X 1.1 X 1.27 X 1.15 = 151.0157
mufflers -(115-1-50) +25 X 1.1 X 1.32 X 1.15 = 148.6122
yigit -(120-1-50) +25 X 1.1 X 1.29 X 1.15 = 153.3939

120 is my max int atm, 50 is an assumtion of mob int(a weak/non mage/non HNM mob) 1.07 is the magic attack of moldy earring and yigit boots plus 20 from rdm sub is 1.27, 1.12 is the magic attack swapping out errant hands for vicious mufflers and 1.32 is the magic attack with rdm sub. here we see errant hands > vicious mufflers and yigit hands > both

errant - (120-1-20) +25 X 1.1 X 1.27 X 1.15 = 199.2122
mufflers -(115-1-20) +25 X 1.1 X 1.32 X 1.15 = 198.7062
yigit -(120-1-20) +25 X 1.1 X 1.29 X 1.15 = 202.3494

a weaker mob; we see that vicious mufflers still fall behind with yigit hands still out placing both

errant - (120-1-80) +25 X 1.1 X 1.27 X 1.15 = 102.8192
mufflers - (115-1-80) +25 X 1.1 X 1.32 X 1.15 = 98.5182
yigit -(120-1-80) +25 X 1.1 X 1.29 X 1.15 = 104.4384

this is a stronger mob, maybe a mage, with 80 base int. results are typical. yigit > errant > mufflers

as the int of the mob gets lower producing higher # dmg the magic attack will boost it more b/c of the nature of %'s. however, this does not mean that vicious mufflers are better, in fact they are worse as the formula shows. as the mob gets harder int becomes EVEN MORE a factor for the dmg.

mathmatically proving vicious mufflers are not better than errant. i'm sorry if this peice of equipment took u a while to get or was a pain to get. however, this does not make it the end all hand equip. further more, sch can not equip a
philomath stole, so i would appreciate it if u stopped trolling the forums.

edit: my int is 120, i forgot some peices of equip and what my base int was(64+56). also worked in magic attack from rdm sub job.

Edited, Jul 7th 2008 6:50pm by XIglooX
#11 Jun 30 2008 at 8:00 AM Rating: Good
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Or perhaps that's not exactly what the damage formula for helices are. It all looks great on paper, now go TEST IT. If you like, I'll be more than happy to video/screenshot all the difference in dmg with gear and provide proof.

Quote:
so i would appreciate it if u stopped trolling the forums.


Don't accuse me of trolling to cover up your falsities.

Quote:
...my post corrected the following things: helix being enfeebling magic, int < magic attack, and the use of an ele torque.


Like I said, all of which was cleared up before your post. All you did is reiterate it with a lot more text.



Edited, Jul 1st 2008 7:50am by xXxNaobixXx
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#12XIglooX, Posted: Jul 01 2008 at 10:16 AM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) get over yourself, instead of admitting defeat you surmise that this might not be the helix forumla, rich really.
#13 Jul 07 2008 at 9:04 AM Rating: Decent
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