A New Stratagem! -Idea-Follow

Ok since I'm noticing SCH seems to get a ton of hate, partially b/c it can nuke as well as main heal, making them do more than a WHM probably would for the duration of one battle, given that the SCH takes full advantage of Light and Dark Arts.

My Idea is that for SCH to get a stratagem that allows them to Erase all hate from any target in pt. Make it so this stratagem cannot be used in SCH's AoE effect, and to catagorize it under Enhancing Magic. Also set its recast timer to 3 Minutes allowing it to not be used too often or too little. Let me know what you think and how useful that would be.

Edited, Mar 2nd 2008 8:45pm by Saphiera

meh i think it could be a good idea given more thought into its function and use i guess

my strategem idea was to make sch more useful in mana burn parties
which is...
making the next selected spell to be one tier higher
making sch able to cast tier 4 nukes every four minutes or even have spells no one else have such as
garity II, bind II, aspir II, drain II (i think drk have drain and aspir II, not sure)
and spells that are more viable in situations such as sleep II
now just like the aoe strategem i figure this strategem would be limited to certain spells especially ones that just arent even created

what do you all think of that?

Well at this point you cant use a stratgem on another player. I could actually see how it would be nice though. Allow the next spell casted to not give hate to the sch at all. Make it low level and give /sch another bonus. Could you imagine blm/sch doing Freeze with no hate once every 4 mins. Could be interesting. Of course the whole stratagem ability needs a bit of tweaking(i personally think 4 charges,10,30,50,70) but whatever.

Its a nice idea tho.

I understand, getting hate is a bad thing, but this could possibly solve the problem of not having any defensive buffs. And it will help schs walk the hate line even better.

Assecetion(sp)+Cure IV+(stratagem)= Hate free super curega

I can count the number of times I AoE'd cure spells during battle.

Campaign Cure IVing the NPCs.
Cure I whenever I was bored on Imps.

That's it. If I'm subbing White Mage, Curaga II is usually more than enough after a battle. If we were fighting something with damaging AoEs, I might hit the party with a Cure IV after the battle, but I don't have to worry about hate then.

Really, a no-hate Stratagem isn't necessary. Tanks keep hate off near full-heal Benedictions. Just play smart and you don't need a no-hate move. If you play really bad, just keep a Thief around.

I'd rather they give us something useful.

Except for... something like snarl? Or super jump? Of course that leaves you with the tiny residual hate that any /ja creates, but would fit the bill for what OP is saying here.



I'm not saying it's a good or likely idea, but removing hate from yourself is not exactly groundbreaking territory, dragoons have been doing it literally for years, bst for months, and, come to think of it, thf have been removing enmity with accomplice for months as well. Granted, it doesn't remove all enmity, but it does

Now if you mean removes in the sense that it doesn't go anywhere else, well then obviously snarl and accomplice are out, but super jumps definitely fits the bill no matter what, and is the oldest of those ja as well.

Edited, Mar 5th 2008 1:39pm by iheartninja

Magicentric version of Tick Attack could be very interesting, and add to the appeal of Scholar.

Good job with taking the quote out of the context of the entire post.

Put simply so you can't confuse it: giving Scholar the ability to remove all of their enmity (or remove all of another player' enmity) encourages poor playing by the Scholar, Black Mage (chain nuking) and other players who should regulate their own hate generation. Thief has already been established as the "hate machine" in the sense of dictating where hate is placed (as show by SE's buffs to Trick Attack and addition of Accomplice). They can't remove the hate, just move it.

Whatever point you had was moot once you took my comment out of context.

I didn't even read the rest of the post.

You still haven't explained how this is encouraging poor playing. DDs are there to deal damage, right? So how is an ability that allows them to do their job encouraging poor playing?

Yes, of course riding the hate-line, and doing your best not to draw aggro is something everyone should learn. But claiming that hate manipulation "encourages poor playing" is being incredibly short-sighted.

You might as well claim that Paladins "encourage poor playing" because they hold hate so well that DDs don't have to worry about holding back. Yes, of course that's a ridiculous statement- when the DD's aren't worrying about holding back, they can focus their efforts into pumping out as much damage as they can. Their playing isn't better or worse, they're merely shifting thier concentration to match the circumstances.

Is -enmity equipment in the game to make up for players who don't understand the hate threshold, or is it in the game to allow players more freedom to do their jobs without pulling hate?

These area all similar concepts. Dealing with enmity (whether by avoiding it, shedding it, or grabbing it) is a major strategic point of this game. You're simply ignoring the larger picture when you claim that hate manipulation "encourages poor playing".





SE has been tossing enmity manipulation to several jobs recently. First, there's the BRD merit songs. Then PUP got Ventriloquy. Now BST has snarl. Really, enmity manipulation is probably the biggest support area that hasn't been fully utilized yet, and from SE's recent additions, I think they realize that.

Seriously, why should THF be the only job that can manipulate enmity? Sure, they can be the best at it, but by no means do they deserve a monopoly.

Giving enmity manipulation to SCH makes sense because it's something that's unique to a mage job, and because it opens up whole new ways to to play (which is something you'd expect from master strategists).



Again, can you explain why THF or /thf should have a monopoly on hate manipulation? Every other aspect of this game can be fully covered by more than one job, even if they accomplish the same task differently.

I totally agree that the original suggestion would by awkward to introduce as a stratagem. I would even agree that adding a hate removal ability isn't "neccesary" either.

But it is definitely a useful ability, and it is a unique ability.



Well, giving such a spell/ability/whatever to SCH would only marginally infringe on THF's niche. While a THF would remain a support/DD, a SCH would be more of a pure support. Similar to how COR and BRD function- one can DD as well as support, while the other is more focused.



Yeah, as a stratagem, something like this would work better, as stratagems only work on the SCH who uses them. However, I disagree that hate shedding abilities for other party members is out of the question.

You know, it's really difficult to understand whether you actually read anything because you're not responding to anything I posted at all. You keep regurgitating the same ridiculous stance that I've provided example after example showing how retarded it is. Personally, I'm getting sick of repeating myself, and I'm beginning to think that you're just too thick to understand the mechanics of this game, let alone have an opinion on it worth correcting.





This is the first time you've clearly stated your point. Until now you've just been on a tirade against hate manipulation in general "encouraging bad players". I've given example after example of why that statement is ridiculous, but now that you're changing your tune, maybe we can get somewhere.

You're right, allowing a SCH to remove ALL hate from a party member would be going overboard. The only thing I've been trying to point out is that some form of hate manipulation could be a possible addition to the job.

Furthermore, if the only thing your so adamantly opposed to is TOTAL hate removal, then the OP's idea isn't "bad any way you slice it"- it merely needs to be adjusted to be viable.

Your ending question to your post proves you're not even reading what I have to say, or you'd have realized that never once have I been discussing TOTAL hate removal. In every instance, I've described hate manipulation- not complete hate removal.



They are both aspects of enmity control. One is direct, the other is indirect, but they are both related. If you don't understand that, then you have no business playing this game, let alone trying to comment on it's mechanics.





No, bad players are bad because they rigidly stick to one playstyle, no matter the situation. Good players know how and when to adapt themselves. Here, I'll add yet another example that you'll probably ignore:

A DRK has to play differently depending on what job is tanking his party. If there's a PLD tank, the DRK doesn't have to hold back as much as if he has a NIN tank. Furthermore, if he sees that the PLD isn't holding hate well, then he must adjust his playstyle further to compensate, resulting in holding back more.

A bad DRK is the one who will not take these things into account when attacking the mob.



Just because one method exists to deal with such a situation doesn't mean that other methods can't be implemented as well. You're just being short sighted and closed minded. Your imagination is pathetic.

Besides, SE already stated that it wants jobs to grow horizontally, not vertically. This means two things: 1) jobs are going to have an expanded range of tasks they can complete. Inevitably, that means more jobs are going to have similar abilities- hence why I believe SE is currently giving more jobs enmity manipulation abilities. 2) Adding similar abilities means that SE is going to implement new ways to perform the same tasks. That's why we have a DNC, who is a healer, but does so in a different way from any other healer in the game. Sure, people were healing just fine before DNC, but that's no excuse for SE to never try something different.



And yet they added it, didn't they? What does that tell you about SE's thinking process? What does it say about the similarities between your priorities for FFXI and SE's priorities for FFXI?

Seriously, answer that because maybe if you do, it'll open your eyes to how things work in this game, and how they are likely to work in the future.



I'm going to give you the common courtesy of specifically answering your question in the hopes that you'll have the decency to actually return the guesture this time.

I don't think they need an ability that "completely" removes enmity. I never once claimed that they did. This entire time I've been in support of an enmity manipulation ability, but I never once said it should remove ALL hate.

A pair of spells that function similarly to BRD's Adventurer's Dirge and Foe Sirvante would fulfill that nicely.

In during lulz.

http://ffxi.allakhazam.com/db/jobs.html?fjob=20;mid=1200942520313707395;page=2;howmany=50#m1204343571255859992

lulz Practice what you preach? ')





On topic: AoE regen and stoneskin are better ways to control enmity accumulation. An enmity-altering charge could be interesting; PUP and SMN already have zero enmity abilities. Being able to clear someone's hate entirely is retarded though.

That's like spraying air freshener on sh*t. It's still sh*t, and it still smells. This thread blows. You're one to talk about grasping at straws.

Edited, Mar 8th 2008 6:07am by Nateypoo

Here, just to try and get us on the same page, these are the comments that prompted my initial objection:






While I concede that removing hate from party members doesn't dissuade ignoring the hateline, it certainly doesn't do anything to specifically encourage it either. Encouraging implies that someone not riding the hate-line will out-perform someone who is, or show some other performance bonus. What it comes down to, though, is that any DD who's actually paying attention will realize they don't have to hold back as much and will continue to meet, or exceed, the performance of the "poor player".

Does that make any sense?


I also just want to point out that hate manipulation in any form will only assist in "locking" the mob onto the tank, so the two situations aren't different at all.





I was never really specific on what I think would be an optimal enmity management ability, but simply a buff that either accelerates hate loss or slows down hate loss would seem approprite. It would be like giving the target an extra piece of -/+ enmity equipment. It's merely moving the hate threshold around instead of abolishing it completely.




See above on why your repeated use of the word "encourage" keeps setting me off.



It's not irrelevant, it's an example of how people have to base their playstyle off of the hate threshold. Anything you do regarding hate management changes the hate threshold and requires you to adjust how you're playing. It shows that even intelligent players would benefit from additional enmity manipulation abilities in this game.



I guess my view of SCH was more in line with SE's description of them as a strategist and tactician. While hate manipulation isn't exactly "new" ground in this game, it definitely is a rarely used aspect.

Like I pointed out before, there are a ton of jobs in this game that can Sleep enemies. SE keeps tossing sleep out like halloween candy. Lately they've also started to give out some enmity altering abilities, so it leads me to believe that they're looking to expand such an under-utilized aspect of the game. I think SCH is a better candidate for such an ability than any other job in the game right now, especially when SCH seems so unfocused. It really doesn't have a defined place right now, and an ability like this may start to solidify the job and make it stand out compared to other mages.

Time to add unproductively and nit pick at these statements(Cire's more that Nateypoo).

Technically, DRG can shed from 35%-50% or all his hate via jumps, except the bare min hate an enemy will have to stay agroed :P

To reduce someone else's hate we also have the 2hr Super Jump(only half for the person we clear).

Lastly, can't a BST charm something and uncharm it?(this one is just needlessly reaching, as it is outside the scope of the conversation)

CireXF asked me to defend my statement and I did. My reasoning was clear in the first reply I made to CireXF. Maybe you missed that, but I feel Thief is the job that should have the best enmity related abilities. Keep ignoring it if you want.

Yes, I used red underlined text twice to place emphasis on my point. CireXF had added additional situations and arguments that weren't relevant to what I had originally said. I wanted the reason for my disagreement known. Continue trying to stir something up, I really do enjoy it.

The first comment could be interpreted in ways I didn't intend. My logic wasn't that Accomplice is only used on bad players. I was still thinking of an ability in the mode of a Stratagem that could be used more often than Accomplice. Not logical, as we have both agreed; that's too often. As it stands, Accomplice can be used to save a player who had to step over the line to keep the party alive or enable a DD to deal more damage. The second comment was still in that general line of thought. Hate removal in itself isn't detrimental, but the amount can be (which we both agree about).

I was fairly certain that you hadn't given specifics, but I always could've missed it, since I clearly haven't read your posts. This idea is something I wouldn't be opposed to. I like how it's something that is in the game mechanics, but not already utilized by another job.

It was irrelevant to my initial objection. I didn't want to back myself into a corner while my focus was on idea X but then have something else come back to bite me in the ass whenever a comment is made about how "I'm against hate management" or something like that. I attempt to do my best to focus on a specific topic because when you start looking at the entirety of things, there are always exceptions and ways to confuse something you stated.

I feel there are a few differences in the enmity-sleep argument, but I understand your what you mean. "Why is hate management required to be specific to a job when many jobs can sleep?" I don't disagree that an enmity-changing ability seems like something SE could give Scholar (I think I said that somewhere) as it is tactics, but it would act in a different manner or be weaker than Accomplice. For the first update, I feel this update will focus on fixing what many players have said are wrong with the job (Stoneskin, Blink, Charges&Timer, Helix Spells) before adding anything groundbreaking. Is an enmity-ability a possibility? Of course. There are many things that are a possibility, but we'll never see half of them.