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just when u thought it was safe to sub sch....Follow

#1 Dec 03 2007 at 2:36 PM Rating: Decent
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Hey, I don't know if anyone noticed this at all.......I just finally got my sch to lvl 10 (and let me tell you, it was like an LSD flashback. I forgot what it was like to be weak). Of course as soon as I got my new abilities, I ran and attached it to my rdm. Apparently theres more than just a boost to magic skills while using light/dark arts. There's also an increased/decreased MP cost. This is outside of strategem use all together, and although I haven't finished testing it, this is what I've come up with so far:

Cure4 costs 88mp
using light arts it's cost is reduced to 80mp
while using dark arts increases the cost to 106
thats an 8 down and 18 up, just for using the job ability.

Thunder3 costs 128mp
dark arts reduces it to 116
heres the killer....light arts increases the cost of thunder3 to 154mp!
thats 12 down and 30 up!!!!!
As an Elvaan RDM, its enough just to hold on to my MP and balance the convert

Can you imagine getting into a situation where your timer hasn't cooled down and all of a sudden you have to switch gears? granted, it's not too often that anyone yells to the rdm, "hey, can you toss out a quick thunder3 on this monster!" but some of us (namely myself) like to toss a few nukes in with the healing and freshness cycles as long as its viable. There are soo many potential benefits to subbing sch as a mage......or rather, there are soo many benefits to subbing sch on blm or whm, cause frankly, attaching it to a rdm just seems like its gonna be even more work than we put into it already......at least I'll still have have enough HP to lose while i pick a strategem.

Edited, Dec 4th 2007 4:24am by RowenHero
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#2 Dec 03 2007 at 2:37 PM Rating: Good
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#3 Dec 03 2007 at 2:44 PM Rating: Good
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edited for math errors, geez. As far as it making sense......I really feel like the penalty is a bit steep for some of those spells. There's plenty enough reason to switch between light and dark arts just with the bonuses to magic skills and strategems without imposing an 18mp penalty just because you had to toss out a cure4 right after doing a dark art sleep2 on a nasty link. Also, something annoying.....one of the benefits to rdm/whm is that u can convert->divine seal->cure4 yourself and keep going, but you couldnt really justify using penury to do that, not with a 4 minute cooldown.

I dunno, all in all I'm just saying subbing sch for rdm is gonna be much less of a blast than I had originally hoped

Edited, Dec 4th 2007 4:40am by RowenHero
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#4 Dec 03 2007 at 5:11 PM Rating: Good
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Don't thump my booty. :(
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#5 Dec 03 2007 at 5:18 PM Rating: Good
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I kinda hate to break it to you, but 106-88 is 18, not 8.
#6 Dec 04 2007 at 1:05 AM Rating: Excellent
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@BastokFL Thank god someone else noticed that before me XD The fact of the matter is, it makes sense you would get a bigger penalty then u do a helpful, otherwise, it might overpower SCH and make it useless to switch from light/dark <.<
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#7 Dec 04 2007 at 10:29 PM Rating: Excellent
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Just one question, I haven't leveled sch or I'd test it myself. Can you cancel the art effect?
#8 Dec 04 2007 at 10:39 PM Rating: Excellent
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the only way i managed to cancel it outside of just switching arts, was to zone into a different area
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#9 Dec 04 2007 at 10:41 PM Rating: Good
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Lunali wrote:
Just one question, I haven't leveled sch or I'd test it myself. Can you cancel the art effect?


Nope you can't other than through zoning. The situation doesn't really arise where you want to cancel it, at least on main. They overwrite each other, and are on 1 minute reuse times, so in general you can just switch to the one you need.
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#10 Dec 04 2007 at 11:05 PM Rating: Excellent
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You can't cancel it you can only switch between the 2, and they don't wear off in time (unless it's some ridiculously long duration). You have to zone or something to get rid of them.

RowenHero wrote:
Can you imagine getting into a situation where your timer hasn't cooled down and all of a sudden you have to switch gears? granted, it's not too often that anyone yells to the rdm, "hey, can you toss out a quick thunder3 on this monster!" but some of us (namely myself) like to toss a few nukes in with the healing and freshness cycles as long as its viable.


Well, for WHM and BLM, that's not really a big deal BLM is always going to be in Dark Arts, and White Mage will always be in Light Arts.

Red Mage though, it's not that hard, you basically just have to think ahead. Drop enfeebles from Dark Arts, then if you're main healing, you switch up and end the fight in Light Arts for Curing.

Even if you do have to toss out an emergency cure and Light Arts isn't up... You bite the bullet and cast from Dark Arts, 18 MP is not that much really, especially considering that the rest your spells costs are reduced from Arts. If you're in Light Arts and want to cast a nuke... just don't... Wait a couple seconds for Dark Arts to come back, doing immediate damage is only really important in burn parties, and you aren't nuking in burn parties anyway.

Edited, Dec 5th 2007 1:07am by KodoReturns
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#11 Dec 05 2007 at 4:27 AM Rating: Excellent
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It's another one of those situational subs..
It will be pretty good in merit against Greater Colibris, just for RegenII and the Light Arts abilities.
Also very good for nuke/drain/aspir/bio with the boost to elemental and dark magic skill.

As a downside, with 1 minute recasts you'll only be doing one thing at a time...
#12 Dec 05 2007 at 9:36 AM Rating: Excellent
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My SCH is only 12, but even after just a few levels of dunes I can tell how restricting the 1min recasts on Light/Dark Arts can be, especially as RDM/SCH. However, you need to look at how often you'd need to switch. A RDM/SCH could safely stay under Light Arts the majority of the time. The only times you'd need to switch would be for Gravity,Bind,Blind,Sleep,Nuke,Drain,Aspir,Bio. The latter four, you would want to cast under Dark Arts unless in an extreme emergency, so as to get the skill boost. The former four spells all have rather low spell costs, so even with leaving LA up 100% of the time and casting these at +20% mp cost, the -10% savings of Cures, Refresh, Haste, etc would likely cancel them out. I'd be far more concerned about the penalty to recast timers than the mp cost penalty.

And as mentioned, BLM could keep DA up 100%. WHM and SMN could keep LA up 98%, swapping to DA every minute for Aspir on applicable mobs.

Edited, Dec 5th 2007 12:36pm by PavFeira
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#13 Dec 05 2007 at 9:53 AM Rating: Good
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Enfeebles like Paralyze, Silence and Slow have to be done under Dark Arts too.
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#14 Dec 05 2007 at 9:59 AM Rating: Decent
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agree with above. as 44sch you're not constantly swapping. to be honest im dark artsall the time and only swap to light arts when ppl start going yelolw, or to cast regen2 on the tank or regen2ga on the pt, then right back to drk arts.

the problem is when you have dark arts active, and cant swap back yet, the mp cost is high but the real problem is whm spells seem to take FOREVER to cast. when your nin uti is down, they go red fast,and a never ending cure 3 is the last thing you need. this has happened rare enough, but it happens

as for rdm/sch i see them doing the opposite of sch/blm. keeping light arts active most of the time so refresh cost less to cast and you fc will be even faster. then swpping to dark arts to cast a nuke or two, then right back to light.

and dont forget, dark arts will raise your elemental magic to B+ (at 75) and thats before all your + ele magic gear.
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#15 Dec 05 2007 at 10:06 AM Rating: Excellent
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snky wrote:
Enfeebles like Paralyze, Silence and Slow have to be done under Dark Arts too.

As SCH, WHM/SCH, BLM/SCH, etc etc, yes.

As RDM/SCH, Dark Arts will not boost a RDM's enfeebling skill **** you S-E), and thus gives no boosts to white enfeebles (Slow Para Silence etc). So you can stick with Light Arts for the MP and casting time bonuses.
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#16 Dec 05 2007 at 10:54 AM Rating: Excellent
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For RDM, when you're partying, you'd be mostly on light arts for slow, paralyze, dia, refresh, haste, stoneskin, cures, regens, etc. You could flip to dark arts for a short interval for Sleeps, gravity, bind, poison, blind, drain, aspir, or nukes. If you only need to cast and odd blind or poison II or drain, its really no big deal to eat the penalty.

On the other hand if you're solo as /SCH, odds are you're mostly on Dark arts, for sleeps, bind, gravity, drain, aspir, and nukes. Just flip to light arts for a short interval for refresh, haste, cures, stoneskin, etc.


Eating the penalty is not so bad for RDMs, if you stay mostly in the correct art in the first place, you come out ahead.

+20% slow cast (cast speed and recast) Our fast cast trait mitigates this and we still come out ahead.

+20% mp cost We tend to have an mp surplus compared to other mages.


For WHMs its not so bad either since they'll almost exclusively be in light arts, with occasional flips for drain, aspir, or black enfeebles. 10% faster casting and -10% mp cost = win.
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#17 Dec 05 2007 at 1:08 PM Rating: Decent
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VERY GOOD POINT! does the 'getto' fast cas of sch add t a rdm fastcast? or does their fc overight it...

i thought i d this proven by trying sch/rdm. i had fc1 then i remembered i had warlok mantel(increases fc with rdm sub) and that did increase the casting speed but was it added to the normal benifit of sch, or did fc just take over completly. ill have to test when i get home.
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#18shadpoo, Posted: Dec 05 2007 at 1:11 PM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) this thread is stupid why does it exist
#19 Dec 05 2007 at 1:53 PM Rating: Good
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I don't see RDM/SCH being useful for most merit parties. If you're at the colibri camp, you should have more than enough MP already. I often sub retarded things like /COR and /BRD there, and still never drop below 50% MP. If it is needed for the colibri camp, your DDs are probably sponging big time or you're curing inefficiently or something. Basically there's something wrong. It wouldn't be useful for other camps either, like thickets or mire, because you're usually going to want /WHM for either curaga or status cures. With that said, it would be ideal if you were in a party with 2+ WHM or /WHMs and didn't need sleepga. It also has obvious applications for endgame. I could see this being incredible at sea, in particular. Usually at sea, I do nothing but nuke the entire time, and almost everything can be aspired. A lot of sky and sea gods I wasn't terribly useful for either, and the higher elemental skill would be a welcomed asset.
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#20 Dec 05 2007 at 2:02 PM Rating: Decent
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I don't see RDM/SCH being useful for most merit parties


so are you saying that 10% less mp cost, B+ elemental skill, 1/2MP cost every 4 min, 30 recast time on aspir every 4 min are bad things??.

if you sill have 50% MP when subbing COR in merits partys you're doing something wrong, like not doing enough...

Edited, Dec 5th 2007 5:04pm by sideways
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#21 Feb 06 2008 at 11:18 PM Rating: Decent
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sideways wrote:
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I don't see RDM/SCH being useful for most merit parties


so are you saying that 10% less mp cost, B+ elemental skill, 1/2MP cost every 4 min, 30 recast time on aspir every 4 min are bad things??.

if you sill have 50% MP when subbing COR in merits partys you're doing something wrong, like not doing enough...

Edited, Dec 5th 2007 5:04pm by sideways


Maybe he merits with 2 bards? DD's that don't sponge up mp for their epeens? Dalmatica? Deulist's Chapeau? or.. All of the above and thus gets a steady mp regen of 9/tic and only really needs to cast Dia II/III on each bird and the odd cure IV after pecking flurry...

**** with just bard x2 sanction refresh and smart DD's I get bored at colibri camp and afterawhile randomly cast spells to be reflected for some entertainment.
#22 Feb 07 2008 at 1:27 AM Rating: Decent
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I see RDM/SCH being extremely nice at G.Colibri and Troll camps. Neither really has any need for -nas and the 10% mp saving on Haste/Refresh plus the addition of Regen II (I'd KILL to get this spell on RDM main) is just full of awesomeness. Not to mention the ability to throw a good nuke/drain/aspir once every min or so (switch dark, nuke, switch white).

Anyone tried this vs mamajool lizards? I know skoffin's would **** you up but if you were at north camp, or just the top level of the nyzule camp you should be ok.
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#23 Feb 12 2008 at 8:13 AM Rating: Default
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I hope you don't honestly think COLIBRI are hard to heal for. Before the colibri camp, people merited at mamool, sky, or KRT; all of which were tremendously difficult. Maybe I seriously underestimate how terrible the standard mage is.

sideways wrote:
if you sill have 50% MP when subbing COR in merits partys you're doing something wrong, like not doing enough...
Um... earth to noob: what else is there to do? Everyone is hasted. I throw out some dias and occasional sleeps. Whoopie. Seriously, is this a joke? It's not like I have to cure AoEs, statuses, refresh people, or enfeeble... This is absolutely nothing compared to what's demanded of me at the easiest of endgame events...
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Nevarie wrote:
Maybe he merits with 2 bards? DD's that don't sponge up mp for their epeens? Dalmatica? Deulist's Chapeau? or.. All of the above and thus gets a steady mp regen of 9/tic and only really needs to cast Dia II/III on each bird and the odd cure IV after pecking flurry...

**** with just bard x2 sanction refresh and smart DD's I get bored at colibri camp and afterawhile randomly cast spells to be reflected for some entertainment.
Decent DDs, decent MP management, and a few pieces of +HMP are all you need. I don't have a dalmatica or deulist's, so you can cut the **** If you can't keep up, then either your party is terrible or you're the one to blame. Usually I have sanction refresh, and about half the time a BRD. Usually the BRD doesn't even bother with ballad though (who would, when your MP is always full?). Eventually I just start nuking too. The real kicker is when I get a merit party with a NIN or PLD in it. You can pretty much finish your haste cycle and go AFK in those parties.

Amateurs are seriously lowering the bar if they can't handle it. I main healed as SCH with FIVE DDS and I was still above 50% MP the majority of the time. It wasn't even remotely difficult either; they rarely broke stoneskin...

saevellakshmi wrote:
Anyone tried this vs mamajool lizards?
I wouldn't use RDM/SCH, unless you already have AoE curing in the party. They can seriously **** over your MP and create a dangerous situation. It does work pretty well though, for the few situations where you do not need -nas or curaga.
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#24 Feb 12 2008 at 10:28 AM Rating: Good
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Can you imagine getting into a situation where your timer hasn't cooled down and all of a sudden you have to switch gears?


Heh, it does bug you when you forget about doing it on some spells. Though I only did it to a big spell on one occasion still, makes you check twice ^.^
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#25 Feb 12 2008 at 1:41 PM Rating: Good
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- I hope you don't honestly think COLIBRI are hard to heal for. Before the colibri camp, people merited at mamool, sky, or KRT; all of which were tremendously difficult. Maybe I seriously underestimate how terrible the standard mage is.


I'm a little sad that mamool, deco weapons in sky, and KRT are seen as hard now. Harder? Yeah.. but let's not go overboard here. Somewhere in this completely unfounded elitist attitude you've taken up.. you've managed to prove you're just as much a newb as the people you are complaining about.

While you had a point later in the post.. I found it really hard to take you seriously after that opener.

Step down off the high horse, chief. You need a serious reality check. There's always someone bigger, badder, smarter, faster, stronger.. than you. You should remember that from time to time.

Please proceede to make fun of my post count and or spelling/grammar/opinion.. becuase lord knows what would happen to you if you're precious forum rep was a little tarnished. Espcically with the serious ammount of rimjobbing you get by the pup's.

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#26 Feb 28 2008 at 10:48 AM Rating: Default
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ok im SCH 37 / blm and well tbh i'm usualy on dark arts with the ecception of the party invite to main heal and that dont happen often so i chould see a RDM/SCH probably sticking to light arts 95% of the time ( only switching for

aspir gravity para ect..) to answer your other question the only ways to get rid of the arts effect is to 1 zone 2 die 3 warp (same as zoning but alot of ppl arent very bright on that) on that not i still think that its effect of

bringin all of your skills up to a B makes the losses worth while eccpecialy for RDM and having lots of C and D skills it whould help them alot eccpecialy their nuking and healing skills they will probably notice a diffrence in their drain and aspir's also over all SCH is a great sub for lots of jobs just a matter of learning how to play it because as easy as it looks it honestly aint that easy

but im out thanks have fun and take care all!
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#27 Feb 28 2008 at 12:39 PM Rating: Good
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I hope you don't honestly think COLIBRI are hard to heal for. Before the colibri camp, people merited at mamool, sky, or KRT; all of which were tremendously difficult. Maybe I seriously underestimate how terrible the standard mage is.


lol. There's a few funny things about this that I could point out, but it's been done already.

Natey still has no clue that it's the melees that make a merit PT difficult, not the mage. Nice to see that some things never change around here.
#28 Feb 28 2008 at 6:16 PM Rating: Good
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I hope you don't honestly think COLIBRI are hard to heal for. Before the colibri camp, people merited at mamool, sky, or KRT; all of which were tremendously difficult.


Sky birthed the first TP burn parties (hai2u RNG nerf...damnit, my FFXI friends are getting to me, I used 1337 slang!). So no, they weren't difficult.
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#29 Feb 28 2008 at 7:00 PM Rating: Decent
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Ketaru wrote:
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I hope you don't honestly think COLIBRI are hard to heal for. Before the colibri camp, people merited at mamool, sky, or KRT; all of which were tremendously difficult.


Sky birthed the first TP burn parties (hai2u RNG nerf...damnit, my FFXI friends are getting to me, I used 1337 slang!). So no, they weren't difficult.


If you can't see why weapons > Colibri, you haven't fought weapons in awhile. Tremendously difficult is an overstatement, though.
#30Yipyap, Posted: Mar 01 2008 at 3:05 PM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) lol well i Main healed Colbri with BST/SCH and gaudy with sanction refresh so if your saying colibri are hard to main heal that whould be a total phail statement because it was super easy for me (lolwhm) jk <.< about the whm thing hahaha funny laugh you know >_> ok but ya colibri are super easy to heal for
#31 Mar 01 2008 at 5:51 PM Rating: Good
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Yipyap wrote:
lol well i Main healed Colbri with BST/SCH and gaudy with sanction refresh so if your saying colibri are hard to main heal that whould be a total phail statement because it was super easy for me (lolwhm) jk <.< about the whm thing hahaha funny laugh you know >_> ok but ya colibri are super easy to heal for


Yipyap wrote:
LOL! Well, I main healed Colibri with (a) Beastmaster subbing Scholar, using a Gaudy Harness with Sanction. If you're trying to say that Colibri are hard to heal, that statement is complete **** and shows what a horrible player you are. I had no problem doing it with little difficulty. Some random jibberjabber that really doesn't make sense.


I said that main healing on weapons was more difficult than main healing Colibri, but that doesn't make Colibri difficult (or weapons) difficult to heal. The last time I fought weapons in a six person party was years ago, but even decent challenge weapons can be annoying when they AoE damage+stun you. What can Colibri do? Peck you...

#32xXSaphieraXx, Posted: Mar 02 2008 at 1:16 AM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) read the post below
#33 Mar 02 2008 at 1:40 AM Rating: Decent
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RDM/SCH could be very good indeed, it takes a bit of practice though, also you want to line up when you are going to cast each spell for instance i'll use dark arts at the start of the fight, get all my enfeebles in, then switch to light arts for curing, by the time the fight ends I'll be able to use dark arts again at the start of the new mob. I know that sounds a bit crazy considering you'll never know when you need to use one or the other but its worth a try, I think tossing in a one or two cure IV"s while under dark arts isn't so bad considering overall you'll be saving more mp than what you actually had to sacrifice just for that. Just takes practice, practice makes perfect thats all gl with it.
#34 Mar 02 2008 at 1:53 AM Rating: Default
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Well personally I want sch sub purely for regenII. Unless your in a merit static, you will be forming with some unorthodox set-ups.
Yesterday for example had 2X sam/war and a war/nin. (and the customary 2Xbrd I wont lvl without these days) While seigan + third eye is wonderful etc etc it simply isn't as good as ichi/ni, on top of this I decided to keep myself awake I would refresh the brd/whm and haste the brd/nin also. Thus 2Xrefresh, 4Xhaste + healing etc on elvaan mp meant I had to use convert once in the 2 hour party. Had I been /sch I reckon I could've got away with never using it (I like not using it).

Point is at some point you will find yourself in a situation where /sch would've done a better job, you really want to get to that situation and find you don't have the sub available for it?

P.S while I can't deny main healing a colibri burn is quite arguably the most boringly easy exp in the game and certainly doesn't "need" /sch, any of you playing melee also will know that about 30-40% of pick-up RDM tend to fail at it and you end up going 10+ seconds without haste every cycle and he/she usually end up riding convert. I believe every rdm should have /sch lvld just to make an easy job easier (currently 18sch and counting).
#35 Mar 02 2008 at 6:49 AM Rating: Good
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Yesterday for example had 2X sam/war and a war/nin. (and the customary 2Xbrd I wont lvl without these days)


What is wrong with the player base today?!?! It just eats a small piece of my heart hearing someone say they wont party without two bards, or two of anything for that matter.
Customary?? No my friend this isn't custom, it's ridiculous saying you wont join a party without having two bards in it.

Edited, Mar 2nd 2008 9:50am by jayfly
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#36 Mar 02 2008 at 6:59 AM Rating: Good
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jayfly wrote:
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Yesterday for example had 2X sam/war and a war/nin. (and the customary 2Xbrd I wont lvl without these days)


What is wrong with the player base today?!?! It just eats a small piece of my heart hearing someone say they wont party without two bards, or two of anything for that matter.
Customary?? No my friend this isn't custom, it's ridiculous saying you wont join a party without having two bards in it.

Edited, Mar 2nd 2008 9:50am by jayfly


Or he can do whatever he wants and we can avoid the stupid **** that will indubitably ensue. If he only wants to party with 2 Bard, let him. Just don't party with him. Whatever.
#37 Mar 02 2008 at 11:52 AM Rating: Default
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What is wrong with the player base today?!?! It just eats a small piece of my heart hearing someone say they wont party without two bards, or two of anything for that matter.
Customary?? No my friend this isn't custom, it's ridiculous saying you wont join a party without having two bards in it.


Duno about the rest of the player base but I for one actively hate being a refresh/haste **** If I want merits/fun I go solo on BLM, if I want fast merits/boredom I go 2Xbrd with rdm. I don't see that as being a problem. I'm sure if I didn't have BLM lvl'd I probably would accept invites with 1 or less BRDs for a merit party, but as I have aternatives, I don't.
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