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What would you like to see for your job: Red Mage Edition!Follow

#102 Mar 14 2013 at 5:37 PM Rating: Decent
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I want RDM to be a desired party job as well, but I want temper all for myself. I think there are much better ways to make RDM a desired party job.


Regardless, self-only melee spells like Temper are not the way to go about it, and it's pretty much the one entirely new capability that RDM has gotten in their post-75 spell repertoire (and it's only really "new" if you ignore the fact that they could have just given RDM innate Double Attack and accomplished the exact same thing) so it really stands out as a point of critique for me. Just about everything else is something that was either given away to other jobs later and/or those other jobs can already do better.

Edited, Mar 15th 2013 4:53am by Fynlar
#103 Mar 15 2013 at 11:59 AM Rating: Excellent
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While it's easy to understand why the ability to cast it on others would up the job's desirability, the real issue with its self-only status is that RDM's melee brings nothing worthwhile.

Mechanically, it helps make up for us potentially casting a lot alongside Fast Cast. More damage, more TP, and thus not as lulzy as we used to be. However, since our damage component will never, ever, and justifiably so, match more dedicated DDs, the martial component simply needs more unique aspects that people would both appreciate and, in turn, tolerate our lacking output. I mean, we can all agree the -resist aspect of T2 Enspells are a joke, right? So, as long as SE thinks stuff like that is okay, then yes, it's easy to see Temper being squandered.

Now, I'm not against party members ever receiving the effects of the spell, but I'd ultimately prefer it being some sphere aspect from the RDM, a buff copying JA, or simply something where whacking the same mob as the RDM passes it over. This avoids the cycle blues while also trimming situations where it's just, "Buff us, drop from alliance, and outside cure..." which you know would happen on non-instanced endgame content. It may seem like a selfish desire, but it's also an attempt at the bigger picture.

For now, I'm kind of hesitant to see how Rune Fencer pans out, as it's almost sounding like melee RDM without cures and the ability to tank at present. At that point, it's basically RNF, SCH, and BLU mocking the job as their own variety of hybrid.
#104 Mar 20 2013 at 1:38 PM Rating: Decent
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Fynlar wrote:
Almalieque the Most Awesome wrote:
I want RDM to be a desired party job as well, but I want temper all for myself. I think there are much better ways to make RDM a desired party job.


Regardless, self-only melee spells like Temper are not the way to go about it, and it's pretty much the one entirely new capability that RDM has gotten in their post-75 spell repertoire (and it's only really "new" if you ignore the fact that they could have just given RDM innate Double Attack and accomplished the exact same thing) so it really stands out as a point of critique for me. Just about everything else is something that was either given away to other jobs later and/or those other jobs can already do better.

Edited, Mar 15th 2013 4:53am by Fynlar


I'm not suggesting that self-only melee spells like Temper are the way to make RDM more party friendly. I'm suggesting that self-only melee spells like Temper should remain self-only. If the goal is to enhance RDM's party relevance, there are other ways to do so.
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#105 Apr 23 2013 at 7:36 PM Rating: Good
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I'm not suggesting that self-only melee spells like Temper are the way to make RDM more party friendly. I'm suggesting that self-only melee spells like Temper should remain self-only. If the goal is to enhance RDM's party relevance, there are other ways to do so.


I'd just prefer for them (for once) to fix their **** that's already broken before they pile on more and more broken ****

Buuuuuuut maybe that's just me
Necro Warning: This post occurred more than thirty days after the prior, and may be a necropost.
#106 Apr 23 2013 at 8:01 PM Rating: Good
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Fylnar wrote:
I'd just prefer for them (for once) to fix their sh*t that's already broken before they pile on more and more broken sh*t

Buuuuuuut maybe that's just me


You're not the only one. The problem is that we are all divided on how things should be fixed. Instead of picking something in the middle ground (or even better yet, best of both worlds), SE decides to develop stuff that's the "worst of both worlds". It appears that SE doesn't know how to react to a divided and capricious player base.
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#107Evokerofsorts, Posted: May 28 2013 at 2:39 PM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) So, everyone's had a chance to see Rune fencer essentially get regen, bar spells, enhance spikes, and refresh, which I'm completely fine. At what point do you think the RDM community will consider nerfing rdm. I personally think taking away all RDM regen spells, bar spells, and enhance spikes would fit nicely for the job. Not so much stoneskin, blink, and aquaveil, but the spikes. Any redmage that wants to use those spells more likely than not will be subbing whm or sch anyway. They can even sub RUN if they want to for those abilities, RDM needs to be put front lines already.
#108 May 28 2013 at 3:01 PM Rating: Excellent
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Seriha wrote:
Sorry, but taking things away from the job is the last thing it needs right now.


Just quoting myself because it didn't sink in the last time, I guess.
#109Evokerofsorts, Posted: May 28 2013 at 6:46 PM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) No, I heard you the first time, I'm still saying things need to go. You want it's place up front, drop some **** it can honestly live without. All the stuff I'm trying to get rid of are spells that it could live without.
#110 May 29 2013 at 10:51 AM Rating: Decent
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Seriha wrote:
Seriha wrote:
Sorry, but taking things away from the job is the last thing it needs right now.


Just quoting myself because it didn't sink in the last time, I guess.


This..
Evokerofsorts wrote:
No, I heard you the first time, I'm still saying things need to go. You want it's place up front, drop some sh*t it can honestly live without. All the stuff I'm trying to get rid of are spells that it could live without.


Only if those spells hindered progress, not because YOU don't use them. I always use regen and absolutely RELY on ice spikes, front or back line.
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#111 May 29 2013 at 2:47 PM Rating: Excellent
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It's bad enough people feel we'd be demolished by AoEs simply stepping to the front, as well. Removing a portion of our defensive tools does nothing to alleviate that concern.

My long standing thought on the whole phobia that a buffed RDM would do "too much" if they got more has held the usual counters:
1) We literally can't do multiple things at once. Melee timers pausing when we cast and the global delay pretty much assures this.
2) MP is not infinite. Abyssea is "over" and Delve certainly doesn't thrive on temp item use. You won't be nuking and curing heavily even if you swap in refresh gear during brief idle periods. Convert is still on a long timer.
3) Our toolbox is still limited by the variety of other classes. We won't hit 100 TP in 5s or less like two-handers in high buff scenarios, as an example. THFs can Feint. DRGs can Angon. If anything, this more a testament that RDM needs more unique stuff for itself instead of putting it all in sub range or removed.

Either way, if SE has any interest in us not being a SCH-1, they'll need to be aggressive with changes. A couple NMs reacting differently to some enfeebles others can cast is not a "fix" to RDM.
#112 May 29 2013 at 3:23 PM Rating: Decent
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Seriha wrote:
Either way, if SE has any interest in us not being a SCH-1, they'll need to be aggressive with changes. A couple NMs reacting differently to some enfeebles others can cast is not a "fix" to RDM.


With GEO getting enfeebling skills, I wounder how this will all result.
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#113 May 30 2013 at 4:49 AM Rating: Excellent
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Yeah, I did a bit of a facepalm as they're basically replicating the SCH overlap with GEO now. I suspect a C rating or so, but gear has gobs of MACC nowadays. Potential irony in that with the one buff set centered on the GEO, they might be more tempted to swing away on certain foes, though I haven't bothered to look in on their club selection to see how well they could handle Realmrazer and the like.

Edit: According to a recent post, they're getting C+ skill, or 378 at 99. Looking up gear, a top-end would probably resemble the following...

Head: Fea's Coronal - DEF:30 INT+7 MND+7 Magic Accuracy+8 Enfeebling magic skill +10 Elemental magic skill +10
Body: Manasa Chasuble - DEF:45 MND+13 CHR+13 Magic Accuracy+7 Enhancing magic skill +12 Enfeebling magic skill +12 Adds "Refresh" effect
Hands: Yaoyotl Gloves - DEF:59 INT+13 MND+13 CHR+13 Magic accuracy+15 "Magic Atk. Bonus"+15 Enmity-6
Legs: Morrigan's Slops +1 - DEF:44 MP+50 STR+10 INT+10 MND+10 Magic Accuracy+8 Enmity-6 Set: Enhances "Magic Atk. Bonus" effect
Feet: Spurrina Nails - DEF:29 MP+50 MND+8 Magic Accuracy+6 Enfeebling magic skill +13
Ear1: Lifestorm Earring - MND+4 Enmity-1 Set: Magic Accuracy+12
Ear2: Psystorm Earring - INT+4 Enmity-1 Set: Magic Accuracy+12
Back: Ogapepo Cape +1 - DEF:20 Magic accuracy+11 Occ. quickens spellcasting +3%

The waist, neck, and ring slots will basically be INT or MND depending, as well as the casting weapon probably being a chatoyant staff or better depending on dedication to MACC. Tallying up the importants of the listed, though, I get...

MACC +67
Enfeebling +35
INT +34
MND +55

Since I'm not seeing a perceived Enfeebling/MACC formula on either wiki for Enfeebling skill, let's just presume GEO will get 378 + 67 + 35 + 17 or 27.5 = 497 or 507.5 MACC before adding the unlisted sources. I haven't accounted for augmented gear potential, either. In general, RDM can wear a lot of these items, too, but this is probably where I'd say Immunobreak steps in to bridge the gap if resists are actually a concern.

Edited, May 31st 2013 4:12pm by Seriha
#114 May 31 2013 at 5:22 PM Rating: Default
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RDM front lines /SAM, /NIN/, /BLU, absorb damage increase physical dmg output,

RDM back lines /BLM, /WHM, /SCH, every enhancement I'm talking about dumping. Minus two tiers of regen, /cry.

You guys are saying the correct things, and I'm glad you dig into my ideas. I reaffirm my stance, only change I suggest now, is that rdm absolutely HAS to get abilities that brings it front line. Convert is a stupid long timer true, but 5 minutes seems too good. The mirror ability I mentioned think should be share a timer with convert. Convert dropped to 5 minutes.

Mirror as a reminder mitigates dmg for 5 minutes like a stance, adding dmg absorbed by party members to hp/mp/tp respectively. That would bring rdm front and center to any fight, couple that with feather, aura, I truly do not see any more problems the job could have. You're talking about enfeebling skill with Geo, and Sch. You should be happy, every new trait they add to them that feels like they are stepping on rdm's toes is allowance to step forward. The problem sits at "how players use rdm" vs "How they want to use rdm" that's what causes the development team the most grief, their ideas suck on all fronts for job advancement, the reason that is, is because people use rdm for sticking enfeebles and doing things other jobs should be better at doing. Unsure what new abilities to add are.

Step away from the enfeebling skill, RDM needs abilities. This competing for enfeebling/macc with other jobs is why the job won't get anywhere, it has way more to offer, I honestly feel rdm is where it needs to be magically. It is, and has always been it's non existent front line. There are no jobs that does anything close to mirror, feather, or aura.

I want to know, why is keep ice spikes/blaze spikes/shock spikes and regens? It's not even that good, and you can get it from subbing whm/blm. That's stripping like less 5% off a job that it can get back from a sub. and its a path towards better abilities. Redmage has too many situational abilities, and nothing that truly defines it. I liked how it felt like an emergency back up support job that people were happy to have, in party situations. It's no longer a main refresher, never was a hardcore nuker, or healer, never was a DD, it should still be recognizable in a party. Rune fencer is able to be front lines as a tank, rdm needs support tanking abilities. Enfeebling shouldn't be a rdm's trump card either, Sorry. there are 22 jobs that want places in parties too.

Enhancement

Edited, May 31st 2013 8:14pm by Evokerofsorts

Edited, May 31st 2013 10:19pm by Evokerofsorts
#115 May 31 2013 at 6:54 PM Rating: Excellent
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Okay, so you feel they're worthless abilities. Why remove them? Apparently there must be some measure of worth to them, otherwise it wouldn't even be on the radar. So, while I'll agree that new and potentially drastic additions are needed to break people out of old mentalities, again, taking things away from the now accomplishes nothing other then potentially alienating those who liked those "useless" things.

Perhaps I should say one of my goals is to make RDM less sub reliant. There's at least some flexibility with /WHM and /SCH for status cures, but nuking is pretty much /SCH only as well as melee being /NIN territory due to the superiority of DW. Measuring the game in niche instances like, "Okay, I can /BLU here and super tank via Cocoon!" is not the way to go in getting us desirability. Nor is funneling off the few things we might have. Having a 400+ HP safety net from AoEs can be huge, something most other jobs can't reliably sub for or reactively need a WHM to temporarily replicate after taking damage. A dead RDM, no matter how OP we're spun, does nothing. Conversely, all that stuff "we can do on our time/not in my party" like solo in Campaign is fundamentally useless in the grand scheme because its efficacy plateaus at a pitifully low level. Party synergy is important, but at the same time, so is avoiding the trap of just being a pre-zerg buffer and getting kicked out of the alliance to let everyone else work. All the little pieces need to come together so we're finally that even mesh of Warrior, White Mage, and Black Mage... not the skewed mess we are now.

To be a successful hybrid, the job needs the tools. You could gear like a WHM, BLM, or WAR, but there are still parts missing, nevermind the inventory nightmare trying to do that all at once and doing it well yields. Do people not invite BLMs because RDM has spike spells? Is WHM excluded because RDM has Stoneskin? No and no. They have their own tools. Hybridization is its own element of specialization, which means people need to shake the tired, "Jack of all trades, suck at them all!" that's been the perceived MO for years. So, think of it this way, RDMs are cookies without sugar. They still have all those other ingredients that can make a cookie a cookie, but without that sugar? It's a pretty bitter cookie. We need sugar, not more ingredients removed.
#116 Jun 01 2013 at 4:43 PM Rating: Default
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Evok wrote:
Step away from the enfeebling skill, RDM needs abilities. This competing for enfeebling/macc with other jobs is why the job won't get anywhere, it has way more to offer, I honestly feel rdm is where it needs to be magically. It is, and has always been it's non existent front line. There are no jobs that does anything close to mirror, feather, or aura.


False. Creating other enfeebling jobs is what have been holding RDMs back magically.

Evok wrote:
I want to know, why is keep ice spikes/blaze spikes/shock spikes and regens? It's not even that good, and you can get it from subbing whm/blm.


That's absurd.

1. Ice spikes IS THAT GOOD. I literally survive off Ice Spikes. Have you ever used it?
2. I don't want to have to sub whm or blm to use regen or ice spikes.. I primarily use those spells when I melee solo, which is not idea to sub a mage job.

Evok wrote:
I liked how it felt like an emergency back up support job that people were happy to have, in party situations. It's no longer a main refresher, never was a hardcore nuker, or healer, never was a DD, it should still be recognizable in a party. Rune fencer is able to be front lines as a tank, rdm needs support tanking abilities. Enfeebling shouldn't be a rdm's trump card either, Sorry. there are 22 jobs that want places in parties too.

Enhancement


RDMs should always be the "Jack of the trades". SE needs to adjust RDM to fit whatever content is current. The primary issue is that the "Jack of trades" doesn't fit well in a max/min elitist environment. As a RDM, I want to be able to transfer from main healing, to nuking, to enfeebling, to crowd control, etc. That's the purpose of RDM. As long as SE continues to fail RDM, i.e. not giving RDM unique procs, etc. RDMs will always be placed
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#117 Jun 02 2013 at 1:37 AM Rating: Default
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1. There aren't enough functions in the battle mechanics to give exclusively to one job, bard, cor, RDM, SCH, geo, all competing in the enfeebling department and being able to do DMG in their own unique way. (lol except bard).

If any job would be able to come forward to melee of those jobs itd be COR and RDM. Again, Other enfeebling jobs, improves the game, it was retarded back in 05 when only two jobs that could refresh and dispel were RDM and BRD. It's not something you want the job to be known for, corsair is all kinds of badass.

2.Yeah, when you solo, sub dancer dammit. Rune fencer has both those spells and has DMG and defense, only no cures, no nukes. It'd be wonderful if they snatched RDM regens and blah spikes and gave us something awesome instead. I know you're skeptical because in your mind the chances of SE giving us anything better than ice spikes and Regen is slim right?

RDM should be the jack of all trades, I can't wait til it gets abilities and spells that doubles its enspell DMG, and gives it EnHanced DMG absorption allowing it close range, I can't wait for it to get a sword enhanced enfeeble that remains on a foe by auto attacking. Sounds like something the job should be able to do, if only they'd stop considering this job too powerful, but then maybe they could nerf a thing or two that really isn't a part of their innate party features or something a seasoned redmage could honestly live without, so it no longer looks like red Mage has so much.

Edited, Jun 2nd 2013 3:45am by Evokerofsorts
#118 Jun 02 2013 at 6:34 AM Rating: Decent
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Evo wrote:
1. There aren't enough functions in the battle mechanics to give exclusively to one job, bard, cor, RDM, SCH, geo, all competing in the enfeebling department and being able to do DMG in their own unique way. (lol except bard).


Yes there are. Remember back in the day when people argued that there couldn't be tier II enfeebling spells because of the way enfeebling was set up.... Yea, about that. Conceptually, it's not difficult. There are various ways you can buff and enfeeble without jobs stepping on each other toes. Look at the number of enfeebles and buffs that are mob only.

Evo wrote:
2.Yeah, when you solo, sub dancer dammit


That wouldn't give me ice spikes now would it? You are still hindering my ability to solo with no good reason other than "you don't use it".

Evo wrote:
Rune fencer has both those spells and has DMG and defense, only no cures, no nukes. It'd be wonderful if they snatched RDM regens and blah spikes and gave us something awesome instead.


So, now you want to pigeon hole me a certain sub job as opposed to having the versatility defined in the job? No thanks. There is no one fit SJ for all. /dnc is a great SJ for DDs because it replenishes hp; however, as a mage, I still live off of MP.

Evo wrote:
I know you're skeptical because in your mind the chances of SE giving us anything better than ice spikes and Regen is slim right?


Not at all. It's just an asinine idea that shouldn't ever happen. Your solution is completely irrelevant to the problem.

Evo wrote:
RDM should be the jack of all trades, I can't wait til it gets abilities and spells that doubles its enspell DMG, and gives it EnHanced DMG absorption allowing it close range, I can't wait for it to get a sword enhanced enfeeble that remains on a foe by auto attacking. Sounds like something the job should be able to do, if only they'd stop considering this job too powerful, but then maybe they could nerf a thing or two that really isn't a part of their innate party features or something a seasoned redmage could honestly live without, so it no longer looks like red Mage has so much.


So, I finally see what you're saying, but you're completely off the mark. If your goal is to nerf RDM in order to get powerful stuff that wouldn't "over power" RDM, then you would have to pick spells/abilities that are powerful. You can't claim that regen and spikes do nothing and offer them up for something powerful. You would have to remove something like convert and/or refresh, not something that you get subbing another job. The fact that you can get the same spells from other jobs only furthers the point on why RDM should have them anyway.

As for your desires of close range, RDM has always had that ability, but the player base pushed it away. The necessary changes to make RDM melee more appealing to the crowd base isn't as extreme as you describe. For example, change the calculation of enspell II dmg from enhancing upon casting the spell as opposed to equipped would do wonders. It doesn't have to be "double". Make RDMs work to excel like other jobs. That's the reason why it was never popular in the past. No one wanted to work for it. People want to equip a Joy-Toy and start swinging. It doesn't work that way.
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#119Evokerofsorts, Posted: Jun 02 2013 at 3:19 PM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) I'm looking over redmage, I'm gonna throw in make archery, dark magic, and divine magic to F instead of E won't make much of a difference and those are only used for claims anyway.
#120 Jun 03 2013 at 4:38 AM Rating: Excellent
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Minor changes like upping club and shield aren't going to do a thing about perception.

And while I'll agree other jobs have their own issues, this is pretty much when I'll say, "If you care about them that much, start a thread specific for them elsewhere." It's too common an issue for RDM threads to get muddied by the "But, <insert other job>...! It's more important!" rhetoric.
#121 Jun 03 2013 at 6:43 AM Rating: Decent
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With the creation of the last 5 or so jobs, it is evident that the ******* of abilities to differentiate/alter RDM has always existed. At this point, I think its a difference of visions for RDMs. Either that or SE just doesn't care anymore.
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#122 Jan 03 2014 at 5:19 AM Rating: Excellent
With 2013 behind us and 2014 just starting, what would you like to see come to the Red Mage job? Has Adoulin changed the proverbial Jack of All Trades in a way that you do or don't like? Is there an unresolved issue that you think they still need to fix?
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#123 Jan 05 2014 at 2:36 PM Rating: Decent
Enspell Damage calc changed.

<400 Skill = (E*5)/100 + 5
>400 Skill = (E*6)/100 + 10

450 Skill
<400 = 27.5
>400 = 37

Applicable for RDM, RDM/SCH, SCH/RDM. T2 would be same base working to its max (37*2 or w/e at the end.)

Should represent about 30% of average damage (based on Eminent Set + weapon) for RDM.
And I reckon close to 15-20% of average damage for bigger DD's if they are given via Accession.

Which is about where the old formula had enspells sitting @ the 75 cap.

There was a time when maximizing your enspell damage and accuracy was a definitive staple of good rdm melee output...today this is no longer the case...I think I actually lose damage by casting it now. (probably not of course.)

Edited, Jan 5th 2014 3:40pm by rdmcandie
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#124 Jan 05 2014 at 2:44 PM Rating: Excellent
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Applying MACC to ilvl weaponry was a good hybrid-friendly step, I feel. As such, a bit more gear better tailored toward RDMs or all hybrids on the whole wouldn't hurt. The new RoE stuff is still a solid step in getting people up to speed, of sorts, even if flirting a bit with my dislike of inventory clutter.

Some formula reworks are long overdue, though. I'm not just talking about the 500 cap on Enhancing, but more how stuff curves up. Enfeebles are still lacking in desirability beyond gimmick fights like the Delve NMs with GEO offering some unique stuff RDM can't at present. Age old "merits to scrolls" request applies.

Job identity is still a thing, though, which means more unique and useful spells and JAs need to happen.
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