Forum Settings
       
« Previous 1 2 3 4 5
Reply To Thread

What would you like to see for your job: Red Mage Edition!Follow

#1 Sep 29 2012 at 4:31 PM Rating: Excellent
Since the job forums have been pretty inactive for awhile, I thought I'd start a new topic in each devoted to things you'd like or wish that Square Enix would do with each job. They can be legitimate things you'd like to see, or they could be absurd, and, while they can be, they don't have to be any serious or groundbreaking changes you think each job needs, just something you think would improve them a bit in some form. Just try to keep the topic clean and drama free (emphasis on try). Just have some fun with this and let your ideas soar.

This one is going to probably be the most troublesome one given the discussions that pop up, but a return to predominantly RDM only buffs and debuffs would be beneficial. Give them the ability to cast Hastega, naturally AoE Regens and Refreshes, remove White Mage from Addle, and give them the ability to cast Temper on other players. Seriously, Temper should not be usable only on the Rdm. That's just not cool Square Enix.
____________________________
Lady Jinte wrote:

Vlorsutes' Negotiation Skill rises 0.2 points
Vlorsutes' Observant Parent Skill rises 0.3 points
Vlorsutes' Argument Diffusing Skill rises 0.1 points

#2 Sep 29 2012 at 9:59 PM Rating: Good
Guru
Avatar
*****
11,147 posts
On a universal scale, I'd want to see all magical buff durations increased. If it means slightly higher MP costs, so be it. I'm talking like 10 minutes or more without needing Composure or any other gear.

Gonna disagree with party-cast Temper (surprise?!) but can understand why people want it. Instead, I'd rather SE rescind their stance on RDM basically becoming a sphere hub for specific buffs. The gist here would be that Haste, Phalanx, Refresh, Regen, Gain, Enspell, Barspells, and Temper could all affect everyone within a 10 yalm radius of the RDM. For each spell the RDM has up, triggering the ability to apply the sphere would apply a 1 MP/tick drain per spell active on the RDM. So, if you have 9 spells up, you're losing 9 MP/tick. Actually casting a spell on someone would take priority, so even if you move out of range, they'd keep the buff(s). So, if people REALLY want Temper, they'll have to concede to keeping a RDM with AoE range, which shouldn't surprise others on where I'm heading next...

Yup, more incentive to melee. Cycles are one of the reasons that hurt this, and with the above largely curbing that, we're left to tackle the other cumulative aspects. First would be better gear, ideally of the hybrid slant without compromising stats from either mage or melee. This will also help alleviate inventory issues a bit. While I'm okay with spells mirroring melee traits like Temper does Double Attack, I don't think 2 levels of Attack/Accuracy Bonus and full Fencer would destroy the game. Unlocking EX sword WS would be nice, too.

Now, I've got more up my sleeve, and regulars may even recall such things, but the above are what I'd consider pretty basic and a good start to laying a foundation for RDM to then diversify itself from other jobs with. People need to get over the old solo days, RDMs stealing WHM's job, it's not a melee because it has mage in the name, or whatever other spiteful BS that gets shoveled at the job any time it dares raise a hand to cry foul. Until its foundations as a hybrid are established without needing prestige gear or HNM drops, skewing toward whatever aspect is dangerous.

Edit: And the oldie, but goodie, in a similar universal vein: All merit spells and abilities are scroll or naturally learned.

Edited, Sep 30th 2012 12:43am by Seriha
____________________________
Violence good. **** bad. Yay America.
#3 Sep 30 2012 at 7:48 PM Rating: Default
Jack of All Trades
******
29,628 posts
Temper should absolutely be a party cast spell. Right now it has lol-status because it cannot be cast on anyone where it would be useful to have it (this is considering the fact that at least 99% of RDMs either don't bother meleeing or suck *** whenever they try) and therefore a lot of people, even RDMs themselves, don't even know about the spell or bother to get it. There seems to have been only one real intended purpose for Temper, and that was to try to ween RDMs off Joyeuse.

This doesn't apply to RDM specifically, but I think that Enhancing Magic should have more of an effect on spells where it currently has none. For instance, with Barspells and Gain- and Boost- spells, having higher skill increases both the potency and duration of the spells. This kind of thing should be extended toward other spells, particularly Haste. ****, even if it's just a duration increase that'd be swell.

Cure 5.
#4 Sep 30 2012 at 10:35 PM Rating: Excellent
Guru
Avatar
*****
11,147 posts
My only caution in suggesting Enhancing Magic skill affect durations would be how it'd fudge with the Emp set and Composure buffing others. Spellcast users may be able to conveniently wiggle around that, but not everyone uses such or even can. Basically, whatever happens would have to match or exceed the set bonus, but that'd also carry to other jobs while leaving us with a useless set bonus. Then again, I always felt it should've given JA haste to Composure.

Will still never get behind advocating a Temper cycle, though. Always a SMN and Ifrit if they really want it, or even my earlier suggestion if sticking to RDM. Don't really think Cure V is needed post-healing magic adjustment, either. We're just still kinda stuck on SE throwing OP mobs at us without buffs present.
____________________________
Violence good. **** bad. Yay America.
#5 Oct 01 2012 at 6:59 AM Rating: Decent
The All Knowing
Avatar
*****
10,152 posts
Quote:
Temper should absolutely be a party cast spell. Right now it has lol-status because it cannot be cast on anyone where it would be useful to have it (this is considering the fact that at least 99% of RDMs either don't bother meleeing or suck *** whenever they try) and therefore a lot of people, even RDMs themselves, don't even know about the spell or bother to get it. There seems to have been only one real intended purpose for Temper, and that was to try to ween RDMs off Joyeuse.


I disagree with a Temper cycle. I understand your point and it is logical, but creating those types of cycles are the reason why RDMs are in the situation that they are in now. A lot has to do with the stigma attached to melee. I remember RDMs gearing for tanking, something completely laughable years before. If SE continues to enhance RDM in ways such as Temper, it's only a matter of time before people will "catch on" and join the bandwagon.
#6 Oct 01 2012 at 9:00 AM Rating: Decent
Jack of All Trades
******
29,628 posts
Quote:
My only caution in suggesting Enhancing Magic skill affect durations would be how it'd fudge with the Emp set and Composure buffing others. Spellcast users may be able to conveniently wiggle around that, but not everyone uses such or even can. Basically, whatever happens would have to match or exceed the set bonus, but that'd also carry to other jobs while leaving us with a useless set bonus. Then again, I always felt it should've given JA haste to Composure.


AF3 set would probably still excel in that regard (if we're only talking buff duration here). I was really thinking more toward just natural, learned Enhancing skill, not having to totally optimize it with gear.

For instance, Bar- Gain- and Boost- spells all start out at a 3 minute duration, but as Enhancing skill increases, these eventually go up to 5 minutes. Just little things like that, is what I'm saying should be applied to all those 3-minute buffs. No matter what your Enhancing is, Haste is always the same 3 minutes.

Quote:
I disagree with a Temper cycle. I understand your point and it is logical, but creating those types of cycles are the reason why RDMs are in the situation that they are in now.


What situation? The one where they're not invited into groups partly because whatever few useful post-75 melee buffs they get are self-only?
#7 Oct 01 2012 at 9:28 AM Rating: Good
Avatar
****
7,547 posts
I think Enhancing magic skill should increase potency of all enhancing magic spells. Including Haste.
I think all Enhancing Magic spells should be compatible with Accession.
I think Enfeebling Magic skill should increase potency and MACC, so we are not punished for needing more skill gear to land enfeebles.
I think All Merit spells should be scrolls. With new merits affecting Composure, and Sabateur should be implemented.
I think RDM should be placed on All sword EX WS.
I think RDM should be placed back onto armor that it used to share with THF MNK and the like.
I think RDMs new Enhancing spells should be castable on others (primarily temper, and gains)

But other than that, I think RDM is just fine as it is. It has no place in the meta game, but that isn't the job that sucks, its just poor game design on the job inclusion front. Because of Proc systems you don't really get that bring whatever type endgame, because bring whatever doesn't work, even if in groups that aren't aiming for max efficiency.

Edited, Oct 1st 2012 11:29am by rdmcandie
____________________________
HEY GOOGLE. **** OFF YOU. **** YOUR ******** SEARCH ENGINE IN ITS ******* ****** BINARY ***. ALL DAY LONG.

#8 Oct 01 2012 at 5:03 PM Rating: Excellent
Guru
Avatar
*****
11,147 posts
Fynlar wrote:
Quote:
My only caution in suggesting Enhancing Magic skill affect durations would be how it'd fudge with the Emp set and Composure buffing others. Spellcast users may be able to conveniently wiggle around that, but not everyone uses such or even can. Basically, whatever happens would have to match or exceed the set bonus, but that'd also carry to other jobs while leaving us with a useless set bonus. Then again, I always felt it should've given JA haste to Composure.


AF3 set would probably still excel in that regard (if we're only talking buff duration here). I was really thinking more toward just natural, learned Enhancing skill, not having to totally optimize it with gear.

For instance, Bar- Gain- and Boost- spells all start out at a 3 minute duration, but as Enhancing skill increases, these eventually go up to 5 minutes. Just little things like that, is what I'm saying should be applied to all those 3-minute buffs. No matter what your Enhancing is, Haste is always the same 3 minutes.


Before wikis started picking up, I recall being one of the people who pointed out Barspell duration scaling and how it was like somewhere around level 55 that the minimum cap gave way to scaling. As long as whatever scaling doesn't require 500+ sets, I'd be okay with it. SCH skates by on Embrava in part because their gloves enhance the stratagem in a single slot, whereas we need 5 to do the same, albeit a bit more with the bonus of the feet on top. And while /SCH is my favored mage sub, I'd like to avoid it becoming the must via Accession much like we're shackled to /NIN if we ever engage things.

I'd rather just skip the middle-man and universally bump all skills by default in this respect. Potency is another can of worms, of which the same cautionary tale would be extended. You think other people would care if the RDM had to recast Haste every 5 minutes instead of 6 if it meant another 1%? No, they'd want their 1% and tell us to stop ******** in the process. It's not far off from why I've not wanted Haste II, especially as a RDM-exclusive. I fully understand the potential power, but I'd also like some get for my give, and that "get" means not outright parroting WHMs or SCHs and nothing more. But if people really want more potency on some things, then just shoot for more tiers. SE needs to get over the spell cap eventually, no sense pandering to their laziness and complicating the issue with even more formulas.

Edited, Oct 1st 2012 7:06pm by Seriha
____________________________
Violence good. **** bad. Yay America.
#9 Oct 01 2012 at 7:14 PM Rating: Good
The All Knowing
Avatar
*****
10,152 posts
Fynlar wrote:
What situation? The one where they're not invited into groups partly because whatever few useful post-75 melee buffs they get are self-only?


No, the situation where people are waiting on RDMs to have the ability to dual wield GAXEs with an A+ rating before effectively meleeing or even attempting to melee. I think we all agree now that melee is part of RDM, but they aren't DDs. So, as long as SE continues to release spells and abilities that hinder the ability to melee in a party, people wont even bother and the ones that try will mostly suck.

What SE needs to do is to continue to create self buff abilities and spells such as Temper, composure self buffs, etc. to promote RDM melee. Once a few good RDMs demonstrate how to do it properly, other RDMS will jump on the bandwagon, just like with RDM tanking.
#10rdmcandie, Posted: Oct 02 2012 at 8:46 AM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) Players have been proving RDM is a capable melee for years, and the communities perception on it has not changed. It has nothing to do with what SE releases for RDM or does not release for RDM. It has to do with the fact that there are half a dozen jobs dedicated to just dealing damage, and they are better than RDM.
#11 Oct 02 2012 at 1:25 PM Rating: Good
Avatar
***
2,227 posts
Change resist petrify to Resist Enfeebles and actually make it work. Apart from the obvious benefit to soloing it would help get RDM's a place back in the alliance. If everyone gets hit with sleep/para/petrify/breakga the RDM could have a chance to resist it and clean up the WHMs/Tanks.
____________________________
[ffxisig]188740[/ffxisig]
Busa's Cloth Guide 1-100
Zaredx wrote:
Gjallihorn + Carnwenhan = Green Ranger's Flute! DRAGONZORD!
#12 Oct 02 2012 at 2:34 PM Rating: Decent
The All Knowing
Avatar
*****
10,152 posts
Since there is no action going on in this forum, I will humor you.


RDD wrote:
Increasing RDM's ability to melee will not make it a desired job, for frontline or backline work. The only viable way to make RDM desirable is to diversify its casting role, and truly make it a party support job that offers unique buffs.


I wasn't arguing in reference of making it a more desirable job. I was stating that enhancing RDM melee attributes will increase RDM melee, while making spells such as Temper with the ability to cast on others will hinder RDM melee.

RDD wrote:
Players have been proving RDM is a capable melee for years, and the communities perception on it has not changed. It has nothing to do with what SE releases for RDM or does not release for RDM. It has to do with the fact that there are half a dozen jobs dedicated to just dealing damage, and they are better than RDM.


Almalieque wrote:
I think we all agree now that melee is part of RDM, but they aren't DDs.


Again, that's the problem. RDM Melee != DD. If you want to put out uber damage and out DD everyone, then pick a DD job. That's not to say that a RDM shouldn't be in a DD slot, just don't be offended if you don't out DD anyone. RDM melee in the true sense of "Jack of all trades" is not being the uber DD, but the ability to deal note worthy damage.

RDD wrote:
RDM at its core is designed to buff the party through direct enhancements and indirect enhancements in the form of enfeebles.


Smiley: lol Yea, you just made that up. RDM has been a single target/self buff caster since the beginning of the game. It's clear from the RDM spell collection, that RDMs were never meant to be the primary party buffer. Their lack of AoE for buffing is similar to the lack of WS's and damage for melee and the lack of the highest tiers elemental spells for nuking. Hence, "Jack of all trades".

RDD wrote:
The biggest hurdle for RDM is that it no longer has that unique buffer role,
RDM never had a unique buffer role. RDM was chosen because of their ability to maintain MP.

RDD wrote:
On the enfeebling side, the fact that spells do not land, or are virtually ineffective when they do (such as paralyze against Iron Giants), is what is crippling the desire to bring RDM. Compounding the issue is the lack of procs for a RDM, it has no procs that make it required, like say a BLU. Even its unique spells in the T2 enfeeble department are left off the list.


I agree with this statement.





Edited, Oct 2nd 2012 10:40pm by Almalieque
#13 Oct 02 2012 at 3:41 PM Rating: Excellent
Guru
Avatar
*****
11,147 posts
Damage is just the "easy" way to get peoples' attention. It may also be king in this game, but that's also because encounters tend to be poorly designed. Regardless, it's not the only avenue that can be explored to bolster melee acceptance, and I'll just copypasta a post I made here Sept. 8 with such a possibility.

Promoting situations of just spamming spells can be simply cycling of a different flavor while naturally diminishing swing time even if you were "allowed" to engage a target. Time and again I've argued that time we spend casting is time we can't melee, thus naturally parsing lower and thus being less effective if actually trying to be a diverse class. To add further insult, if you forgo all that and just swing away, you're still inferior to other jobs. Now, Fast Cast and Temper somewhat alleviate this, but not nearly enough to get anyone to notice or anyone outside of non-melee-hater RDM to care.

So, in short, if we're really keen on throwing stances around, I'd just like to reiterate my old charge-like idea rooted in Enspells. One stance will favor will upping buff potency/duration and cures. The other would benefit nuke and enfeeble potency. In a perfect setting, you'd start off in the first stance to get your party set up, then switch to the second once everyone's buffed (for hopefully 15 minutes or more). All you'd have to do is land a hit 3 times or more on a mob to get the best effect of either side for your next appropriate spell. Boom, we can finally do a bit of everything with the buff output being comparative to staff swapping.

Add a few more minor traits, some new debuffs (while scrolling T2s), improve our gear/WS selection a bit, and maybe traits that give TP for (de)buffs and we're more on track for being our own unique entity. Backlining still has its advantage of safety and lesser interaction, but stepping up would also finally have its benefits.


Not covered there, but add a trait where landing a WS adds duration and maybe some potency to all currently inflicted enfeebles.

Everyone will still get what they want, but with more duration and potency. Giant chunks of the job's skill set wouldn't be collecting dust only to be used solo or in the-now-useless Campaign. "Fine" or whatever regurgitated bull about the job's martial status would mean people wouldn't care when you engage. They still very much do because it isn't fine. No amount of being a selfish **** and just doing what you want to anyway will change numbers, especially outside of the parse vacuum, that support the naysayers. The damage war will never be won, but I'll be damned if you can't add utility to it.
____________________________
Violence good. **** bad. Yay America.
#14 Oct 02 2012 at 5:33 PM Rating: Good
The All Knowing
Avatar
*****
10,152 posts
I was not focusing on one specific way for promoting RDM melee. I'm with you, I would rather add utility than damage. In any case, adding additional buff spells that can be cast on others do not help that motive.
#15 Oct 02 2012 at 6:02 PM Rating: Excellent
Guru
Avatar
*****
11,147 posts
Was ranting more at RCD in sort of our perpetual state of disagreement, if only because I loathe that "fine" opinion going uncontested when most other public opinion speaks contrary, for better or worse. Basically, what few glory stories have trickled in over time came from the RDMs themselves and not people who'd partied with them sticking up for 'em.
____________________________
Violence good. **** bad. Yay America.
#16 Oct 02 2012 at 6:57 PM Rating: Excellent
Avatar
***
1,033 posts
rdmcandie wrote:
Players have been proving RDM is a capable melee for years, and the communities perception on it has not changed. It has nothing to do with what SE releases for RDM or does not release for RDM. It has to do with the fact that there are half a dozen jobs dedicated to just dealing damage, and they are better than RDM.
If that were true, then 2-handers should never really gotten an update. Indeed, two handed weapons were appropriately powerful in the hands of properly skilled players, but the update made everyone sit up and take notice. Had that update not come, it might have taken forever for everyone to accept 2-handed weapons' efficacy, much like WAR's DD efficacy pre-ToAU.

Likewise, RDM melee has always been perfectly capable in skilled hands... except RDM has never had any updates that made the larger population sit up and take notice.

rdmcandie wrote:
The only way to make RDM desired for melee roles would be to increase the damage out put of RDM to be on par with these DD jobs, which won't and shouldn't ever happen due to RDM's pile of additional role playing abilities.
Why do we keep giving this overweening consideration to damage classes' standing? BRD, WHM, SMN, COR, SCH and DNC (to include GEO soon enough), run the gamut of support capabilities. What could RDM bring to the table without infringing on these already existing support classes, that are in comparison fewer in number and availability than DDs?

rdmcandie wrote:
RDM at its core is designed to buff the party through direct enhancements and indirect enhancements in the form of enfeebles. The skill set supports this, the abilities support this and the gearing options support this. Healing, nuking, melee are all secondary skill sets that apply after the buffing/debuffing.

The biggest hurdle for RDM is that it no longer has that unique buffer role, any job can sub RDM and provide support in the buffing sense nearly as well as RDM, the only notable exception being Refresh 2, and arguably Phalanx 2. On the enfeebling side, the fact that spells do not land, or are virtually ineffective when they do (such as paralyze against Iron Giants), is what is crippling the desire to bring RDM. Compounding the issue is the lack of procs for a RDM, it has no procs that make it required, like say a BLU. Even its unique spells in the T2 enfeeble department are left off the list.
I will agree that RDM has always been enhancing-oriented, but the class was never an effective party buffer, unless you count effective as spending MP on each person, one at a time. Since the start, BRD has always been able to offer much of what we do far more economically, and then cam the CORs, DNCs, and SCHs.

The Community Rep's tragically-mistranslated summary underscored RDM's specialty for enfeebling, which we're all aware is something of a joke and, in it's way, was a dangerous mistake. They tried to specialize a job in enfeebling in a game where any genuinely effective enfeebling undermined the player/monster dynamics they'd intended. In fact, RDM's specialization in enfeebling is of a misnomer, as several other jobs had access to more powerful or unique enfeebles long before even merits were introduced.


RDM's powers may lay in enhancing, but the core of it's design lay in it's ability to take care of itself. It was never a secret that a properly buffed RDM is hard to kill, such that in most party scenarios, no other healer, buffer, or tank (back when we used tanks), would ever really have to worry about protecting the RDM; it left the RDM to stand in where someone went down until they got back up again, or maybe stall adds until the party was ready, or (and I don't feel this was ever fully explored), pull with near impunity.

That's the job's truest strength and function: it's ability to stand on it's own.

rdmcandie wrote:
Increasing RDM's ability to melee will not make it a desired job, for frontline or backline work. The only viable way to make RDM desirable is to diversify its casting role, and truly make it a party support job that offers unique buffs.

(by unique I mean in terms of magic schools, not unique as in something completely unto its own. Temper being party targeted for example is unique to White Magic buffs, but is a shared buff with a Corsairs roll.)
The only problem here is that what you're insisting on has already been tried: the developers have been prioritizing magic on RDM since the game's launch. It's magic has steadily gotten more attention than any of it's non-magical characteristics. Indeed, it was magic ability that enabled yesteryear's famous solos, it was magic that briefly replaced WHM as healer post-ToAU. Even amid the devs' crusade to humble RDM, more attention has been given to the magic than the melee.

As I mentioned, there remains the issue of any efficient support addition to RDM infringing on currently existing, and more genuinely specialized support classes. If it's not efficient, we risk being put back in the shackles of buff cycles yet again.


Leaving aside improvements to enfeebling and combat powers, any return to large-scale events will come when the devs start rewarding game play that caters to RDM's strength.
____________________________
Level 75 Scruffy/37 Nerfherder

"The reasonable man adapts himself to the world, the unreasonable one persists in trying to adapt the world to himself. Therefore, all progress depends on the unreasonable man."

- George Bernard Shaw
#17 Nov 18 2012 at 12:39 AM Rating: Decent
**
482 posts
Firstly, I've never been a melee RDM. I wouldn't bash anyone that follows that route or enjoys it. That is the power of the job to be diverse.

That being said, I did/do enjoy being a backline RDM. Back in the old days of xp (pre-pink bird expansion), it was fulfilling for me to cycle enfeebs on mobs. Refresh on mages, assist with hastes if needed, enfeebs...wash repeat. Even moving on to Sky/Sea/Dynamis I found time to enfeeb. The few times I was able to clip Suzy with silence (more so doing her 2hr) was one of the awesome-sause days of lv75.

Now, I don't want to go back to long dragged out xp parties and what not. Those days are to be left in the past, but ****...can't we get enfeebling magic to work worth a **** on the current content. More so in a way that makes the job semi-needed/desired again for events? I think the idea of scaling potency would be worthwhile. Does SE really think content would be completely broken if they allowed the one job they established as the master enfeebling specialist to operate like they said it should?

Also...yes for making changes to enhancing magic as stated above.
____________________________
Jophiel wrote:
Pack your own lunch and bring nothing but Pixie Stix and Pop Rocks and get your liberty on.
Necro Warning: This post occurred more than thirty days after the prior, and may be a necropost.
#18 Nov 18 2012 at 7:47 AM Rating: Decent
The All Knowing
Avatar
*****
10,152 posts
I will give you the same courtesy that you gave for RDM-melee, but Enfeebling was a "cheap toy" that SE gave us to make us feel more useful. It was fun during the IT++ days, but we were never the "Master of Enfeebling" as people proclaimed. We were just the best class suited for the job.

This was an argument that I've been making for years. SE gave us an "A+" in enfeebling, but nothing to support it. All of our enfeebles were learned by other jobs (at the same time) and we actually had less job specific enfeebling magic than jobs like BLM. We had diaga, dispel and gravity. Diaga being completely useless, dispel being outdone by a brd, leaving us only with gravity (which prior to the -evasion boost, was only useful in kiting).

In Sky, we had to be completely decked out just to have a chance at landing a spell. Just to have the /whm land it right after you.

The truth is, anyone could have enfeebled and giving us the A+, just gave us that task to do it. SE made some steps in making us the "premiere enfeebler" with the T2 merits, but without changing the efficacy of enfeebling on mobs, it was short. Now, with the upcoming changes in enfeebling, there's potential beneficial changes.

However, times have changed since then and it's now a day late and a dollar short. As the board accurately stated, enfeebling is the wrong direction for RDM. Unless SE will allow us to cripple the mobs, what we need to see are things that benefit the group.
#19 Nov 18 2012 at 9:05 AM Rating: Decent
Avatar
****
7,547 posts
The problem with Enfeebling is that any job with the enfeebling skill is capping their teir 1 enfeebles. The mechanics of how enfeebling magic scale are built on the 75 cap, Back at the 75 it was ok to have caps structured around the DMND/DINT mechanic, as the accuracy separation was there. RDM was likely the only job that could not only land spells but land them for full value. In the basic sense of the point we are level 99 jobs playing with level 75 mechanics.

Now most jobs can pile on enough MACC/MND or MACC/INT gear to cap out enfeebles and have them land at a rate that isn't really different than RDM. Essentially if a mob isn't immune nearly any job can be successful at enfeebling. My BRD/RDM is as accurate magically and as potent as my RDM simply because of the amount of MACC and <Stat> gear RDM is essentially as good as a subjob as a main job.

On the topic of T2 enfeebles the scaling on them is terrible. Slow 1 is over 2 times more effective vs MP as Slow II. (1.92% per MP vs SlowII5/5 .82) The end result is a whopping .4 seconds of difference on a standard mob attack rate. This is not glaring enough to warrant a required presence. With WHM BLM and SCH all offering more, the fact that the T2 enfeebles are not really any better than their T1 counterparts, and the fact that SCH WHM and BLM all bring other benefits that negate the difference out right. It goes without saying that RDM is in dire straits.

The only way to fix this is to address the issues with the code, mainly it being capped essentially at 75. SE needs to do the same thing with healing, in the sense that after 75 skill applies in increasing the caps higher. This gives RDM a better overall spell, than other jobs, but more importantly better than /RDM. As long as I can offer everything I can as 99RDM with my 99BRD/RDM w, and then my BRD stuff on top...you will never solve the problem.

Fic the mechanics, fix the job. Same applies to enhancing. SE has left RDM's top 2 magic schools capped at 75 content, more and more jobs are now passing those caps.
____________________________
HEY GOOGLE. **** OFF YOU. **** YOUR ******** SEARCH ENGINE IN ITS ******* ****** BINARY ***. ALL DAY LONG.

#20 Nov 18 2012 at 1:30 PM Rating: Excellent
Guru
Avatar
*****
11,147 posts
Still say you're not gonna see glaring differences in potency even if SE did make Enfeebling skill matter more. WHM, BLM, SCH, and even DRK have a modest chunk of +skill gear of their own.

So, really, if they want enfeebling to be RDM's thing, they've pretty much gotta do the following:
1) Current T2 merits becomes scrolls, learned at say 55+ with MP costs significantly lowered.
2) Introduce T3 versions 90+.
3) Rework ALL of our merits. Change all the T1 MACC to one category, keep Convert, add Enfeebling Magic Duration Up (20%/lvl), add Enhancing Magic Duration Up (20%/lvl), T2s would be Enfeebling Magic Potency Up, JA Haste from Composure (5%/lvl), +Enspell damage (20%/lvl), MP Efficiency Up (-5% MP cost/lvl)
4) Add more enfeebles like the TP move addle/reverse TP bonus, the inverse to Gain spells, fiddling with level correction in our favor, actual AoE versions (even if at diminished potency), etc..
5) Give RDM a native trait where any damaging WS they land slightly ups the potency of all currently inflicted enfeebles and increasing their duration by 20s.
6) Change this laughing stock of a new 2hr into 60s of Saboteur if they insist on it being exclusive to enfeebling.

Then you might be able to call the job a ******* enfeebler.
____________________________
Violence good. **** bad. Yay America.
#21 Nov 18 2012 at 3:07 PM Rating: Decent
The All Knowing
Avatar
*****
10,152 posts
Seriha wrote:
Still say you're not gonna see glaring differences in potency even if SE did make Enfeebling skill matter more. WHM, BLM, SCH, and even DRK have a modest chunk of +skill gear of their own.

So, really, if they want enfeebling to be RDM's thing, they've pretty much gotta do the following:
1) Current T2 merits becomes scrolls, learned at say 55+ with MP costs significantly lowered.
2) Introduce T3 versions 90+.
3) Rework ALL of our merits. Change all the T1 MACC to one category, keep Convert, add Enfeebling Magic Duration Up (20%/lvl), add Enhancing Magic Duration Up (20%/lvl), T2s would be Enfeebling Magic Potency Up, JA Haste from Composure (5%/lvl), +Enspell damage (20%/lvl), MP Efficiency Up (-5% MP cost/lvl)
4) Add more enfeebles like the TP move addle/reverse TP bonus, the inverse to Gain spells, fiddling with level correction in our favor, actual AoE versions (even if at diminished potency), etc..
5) Give RDM a native trait where any damaging WS they land slightly ups the potency of all currently inflicted enfeebles and increasing their duration by 20s.
6) Change this laughing stock of a new 2hr into 60s of Saboteur if they insist on it being exclusive to enfeebling.

Then you might be able to call the job a @#%^ing enfeebler.



....SE translation "Deordorize II"...

Think about it. If SE didn't do any work on redefining the game years ago when they decided to push enfeebling onto RDM, you think they will do it now? Their answer was "A+" then made our tier II spells merits.. I think they are doing this on purpose just to read the forums for lulz...
#22 Nov 18 2012 at 7:32 PM Rating: Good
Guru
Avatar
*****
11,147 posts
Let a girl dream in these darkest of nights. ;_;

Edited, Nov 18th 2012 8:32pm by Seriha
____________________________
Violence good. **** bad. Yay America.
#23 Nov 18 2012 at 8:27 PM Rating: Decent
The All Knowing
Avatar
*****
10,152 posts
Good ideas though.. but too much sense, need to throw in a gravity III somewhere in there..
#24 Nov 19 2012 at 10:18 AM Rating: Decent
Avatar
****
7,547 posts
Seriha wrote:
Still say you're not gonna see glaring differences in potency even if SE did make Enfeebling skill matter more. WHM, BLM, SCH, and even DRK have a modest chunk of +skill gear of their own.

So, really, if they want enfeebling to be RDM's thing, they've pretty much gotta do the following:
1) Current T2 merits becomes scrolls, learned at say 55+ with MP costs significantly lowered.
2) Introduce T3 versions 90+.
3) Rework ALL of our merits. Change all the T1 MACC to one category, keep Convert, add Enfeebling Magic Duration Up (20%/lvl), add Enhancing Magic Duration Up (20%/lvl), T2s would be Enfeebling Magic Potency Up, JA Haste from Composure (5%/lvl), +Enspell damage (20%/lvl), MP Efficiency Up (-5% MP cost/lvl)
4) Add more enfeebles like the TP move addle/reverse TP bonus, the inverse to Gain spells, fiddling with level correction in our favor, actual AoE versions (even if at diminished potency), etc..
5) Give RDM a native trait where any damaging WS they land slightly ups the potency of all currently inflicted enfeebles and increasing their duration by 20s.
6) Change this laughing stock of a new 2hr into 60s of Saboteur if they insist on it being exclusive to enfeebling.

Then you might be able to call the job a @#%^ing enfeebler.


1) I agree, they should have never been merits to begin with, and their scaling needs to be much higher. But in order to do this they need to change how the enfeebling skill works with spells, it is the only realistic approach to adjusting the scaling. At present Slow II isn't even worth 1/5 really compared to Slow I. Same applies to Para and Blind. SE needs to have the current cap capable of being exceeded. The easiest way is to have enfeebling skill affect the value of the spell. This also gives RDM slightly stronger T1 enfeebles than WHM or SCH, (due to gearing options), and much higher levels than /RDM (as it should be but is not)

2) Agreed, with T4 versions of Dia and Bio.

3) Some of those seem a little excessive, but you are on the right line of thinking, in fact the same courtesy should apply to other jobs such as BLM whose merit spells are a little behind the times, and could be exchanged for other things. (we might get lucky with new merits though, if they ever implement them who knows.)

4) Adding new enfeebles should only be done after enfeebling itself is fixed mechanically. Piling crap on crap doesn't mean better crap it just means more crap. The single largest issue facing RDM is the fact that enfeebling and enhancing are playing with level 75 mechanics, in a level 99 world.

5) I don't particularly like this, I could see a specific WS performing this function, but I don't think it should apply to every single WS. However utility WS's often serve no purpose, as melee elitests care only for damage and not utility. I think something like this would be better served as a enspell trait, that offers a small chance to reset debuffs/dots associated with that element that are on the mob. (from all sources.)

To better explain. Enblizzard could be used to reset paralyze, frost, (ice)helix (forget the name).

6) Yes this ability is a slap in the face, it is insulting, even more so it is insulting that SE keeps trying to tell us that we don't know what we are talking about, and that it is vastly different than ES. Personally I would rather see something that draws on the essence of RDM. Some sort of super enspell.
Elemental Infusion
The next cast offensive spell is applied to the RDM's weapon for the duration of the effect.
Duration 30 seconds
Recast 1 Hour (or w/e they set the recasts at I can't be assed to look).

Essentially this allows a RDM to use say Blizzard 4 as an enspell for 30 seconds. It is kind of like how mystic knight could apply any spell to their weapon in FF5 (i think it was 5).

They could have at least tried to be creative, and with the enhancement buff they had something decent going, but then they came back with ES-3. Waste of space...

____________________________
HEY GOOGLE. **** OFF YOU. **** YOUR ******** SEARCH ENGINE IN ITS ******* ****** BINARY ***. ALL DAY LONG.

#25 Nov 19 2012 at 4:05 PM Rating: Excellent
Guru
Avatar
*****
11,147 posts
Main reason I went for every WS on the idea is that it allows every RDM to get it, no questions asked, no prestige weapons required, and it could even be tiered to improve as leveled and maybe even merited if those ever did get reworked. So, while the thought of like-element Enspells boosting their element is sensible, I also see the issue of on mobs where you want to keep Slow on, for example, they may be resistant to both the debuff and the element itself. This is where Immunobreak could come in handy, as once you get it on, you can keep it on through persistent activity, not to mention getting the most bang out of Saboteur. Computationally, I'd say it'd also be easier on the game to run the addition every WS as opposed to every normal hit landing--not that many tend to card about the back-end of things.

Anyway, I won't argue against the T2s getting a better INT/MND curve, but I still think tying potency to skill is a bad idea with people only noticing small percentages in longer term encounters where we're also looking at some outright being useless due to TP Move Normal Attack-itis. Actually giving RDM unique debuffs also lessens the need for such since nobody else would be able to emulate the effects.

More to Enspells, though, I still want to see a null-elemental WS that adopts your enspell property for damage and skillchain slots. It could even outright make the target vulnerable to MBs of that element for the usual window after. In the end, I just don't want to see enfeebling be considered spellcaster-only in execution, which the sad excuse of the new SP has me fearing where SE is lurking in their thought process and the likely chicken and egg scenario of the whole melee debacle.
____________________________
Violence good. **** bad. Yay America.
#26 Dec 07 2012 at 4:59 PM Rating: Default
Avatar
38 posts
Red Mage I feel is facing a much bigger issue that the community and the devs seem to be addressing, and I've noticed something that I'm pretty sure would be the step in the best direction towards fixing red Mage to be the job that everyone wants it to be. The problem the community is saying is the job is wrong it should be front lines to DD but also be able to cast effectively, while the devs say it is too powerful. You both are right, currently red mage has Elemental skill lower than dark knight, but higher tier nukes, And enhancing magic is doesn't need or use in common play. What I recommend is taking away red Mage tier 4 nukes as well as the enspells, blink, aqua veil, phalanx, stoneskin, and all bar spells. Now, I know I'm gonna be hung upside down for this but here me out. Red Mage in place of those spells should be given job traits already in the game, as well as a few new ones to properly balance the job. red Mage should be versatile, but it can't be because SE gave them too many spells and now it's a lopsided job. Leaning more towards a mage only with a mix between black and white magic, which was fine until scholar showed up.

1. Fencer I, II, and III. A bonus they could use, to deal more DMG per WS.

2. Shield mastery I, II, and III. Defensive bonus so RDM is further encouraged to use Shield and increase their tp gain. (PLD had better be seeing shield mastery V, if this is to work...)

3. Occult Ocumen I, II, and III. Grants tp bonus for them casting elemental or dark magic. Again this is to increase their tp gain, for if they choose magic offensive.

4. Defense bonus I, II, III. They have magic defense bonus I, II, and III. It should be even.

4. Feather lvl 60(new RDM spell). Halves attack power, doubles attack speed, halves tp gain, inhibits targets tp gain. RDM is an enfeebling fighter, fencer. Which to my knowledge should be a really fast ****. (self cast only) only works while RDM is striking, similar to drain sambas.

5. Triple Cast(RDM only job trait) - occasionally casts elemental spell again at no additional mp cost. Give it a high activation rate. Originally double cast seemed enough, but considering that RNG gets double shot, while COR gets triple shot because it's the weaker more inaccurate job, I figured give SCH a double cast charge or trait with lower activation rate and call it even.


6. Chaotic Cruelty( Rdm, Sch, Drk job trait) - halves mp cost of elemental spells but doubles enmity gain. This is to fix the problem rdms had with tranquil heart by giving you a way to gain enmity, as oppose to losing it. Does wonders for Drk as well considering I'm trying to give them rdm's tier 4 nukes and they don't have the mp to afford it. No need to include dark magic, as thats mostly absorb spells and their hate is perfectly fine. I register this is dangerous for SCH, but they are the job that are able to scan hate, and already have several hate shedding/dispersing abilities, could use a few more. Also occult Ocumen would need to be doubled its current stats to be where it is now with this trait.

7. Make temper level 40, it's a very Good spell. it should really get new rdms to start meleeing. It's Double attack goes off enfeebling skill, and yeah, that's pretty low at that level anyway. Lower the cap needed a little so it caps at 20% double attack by lvl 60 and it's a win.

8. Aura lvl 80(self cast only). Grants double attack, haste, regen, and regain. Now this is probably where your certain I've lost my mind, but keep in mind all the defensive and offensive spells I requested to be taken from redmages book. To keep it not broken, it needs to remain self cast only. This spell does not stack with the spell regen, this does not stack with regain, this does not stack with temper, this does not stack with haste. If this spell is cast it overwrites the other 4 but the other 4 cannot overwrite this. This is to Leviate having to cast those spells independently. Let it cost more than all four spells combined its worth it. 100 mp, and standard enspell duration.

9. Mirror flip lvl 40(job abilty) - Converts DMG from targets next attack, and converts it MP/HP . Recast 3 minutes. Could be longer, any longer than 5 minutes and it would force redmages out of the front line fight, losing its usefulness. I imagine the animation would be a mirror in front of redmages appearing, and after the redmages is hit the mirror flips vertically facing RDM and shatters into sparkling shards and restores RDM's HP/MP. I'm thinking make it share a timer with convert, 2 mirror flips = 1 convert. maybe make it odd timer 3:15 so it's 3 mirror flips = 1 convert. Anything to give RDM an incentive to go front lines and have hate.

10. Magic burst bonus I, II, and III. Benefit for losing tier IV nukes. Maybe let triple casting lets all 3 spells receive max DMG during magic burst.

11. Skill chain bonus I, II, and III. Red Mage is weak as ****. It's benefits should come from its rapid succession of moves similar to how its 2 hour chainspell works,


Basically what I'm doing here is making RDM faster, close range, and farther from SCH, BLM, and WHM territory. By taking away RDM ability to do all those enhancements ive made it faster and stronger physically and magically, without pulling it from its core elements of play. Taking away its ability to buff party members it gives room for job traits It rightfully deserved like advanced shield mastery, occult Ocumen, skill chain bonus, magic burst bonus, and fencer. Feather and Aura combined allows Rdm to fight with melees, without simply feeding tp with little return. Feather would also be a much wanted new enfeeble that has felt like a missing part of its role. RDM is the jack of all trades, it should act like it. Seeing RDM meleeing at lightning speed, reflecting dmg and triple casting, would definitely give it a personality of its own. Also I feel it would compliment chainspell very nicely. Add all that, and I'll take that 1 hour elemental seal with open arms.

The job doesn't need ANY more magic enfeebles, it's so boring currently. If you want to nuke/enfeeble better sub BLM. Heal status ailments, curing, and dmg resist /WHM. Increased potency in enhancement, /SCH or /SMN. RDM needs to lose all the baggage, no T3 enfeebles, no barspells, no T4 nukes, no weak sauce enspells, no defensive magic. You can get all of those spells by subbing other mage subs and most people who want those spells either will simply play that job or sub job that has it anyway. Rdm never needed it, and if we want real changes to the job, we have to ask for this nerf. Adding new magic enfeebles is just another band aid on an incorrectly designed job. It's suppose to be front line.

If you feel this is too good, well I offer more nerfs to RDM such as lowering overall STR, CHR, AGI, MP, HP. Mp isn't really an issue considering how endgame RDM is a job that supposedly never runs out of mp. It just pains me that everyone wants things for RDM but no one thinks we have so much, what are we willing to sacrifice if it's too powerful. This will put red Mage where it needs to be between BLM and WHM. Behind WAR, in front of SCH, and right next to BLU.








Edited, Dec 7th 2012 6:18pm by Evokerofsorts

Edited, Dec 7th 2012 6:24pm by Evokerofsorts

Edited, Dec 7th 2012 11:12pm by Evokerofsorts

Edited, Dec 7th 2012 11:35pm by Evokerofsorts

Edited, Dec 8th 2012 3:29pm by Evokerofsorts
« Previous 1 2 3 4 5
Reply To Thread

Colors Smileys Quote OriginalQuote Checked Help

 

Recent Visitors: 1 All times are in CST
Anonymous Guests (1)