RDM's role in end-gameFollow

I have a LS mate who has been playing more and more as SCH in our Aby fights and has just now started talking about how RDM is dying as a necessity for anything endgame, what with Atmas giving more Refresh than RDM could dream of, and SCH/RDM being able to handle support better than RDM, and I guess even Tier II enfeebles not being used as much as they used to.

So, my question, because RDM was my favorite job back in like, 20004, is what does a RDM do in end-game situations these days that other jobs don't do better?

I hope this question isn't met with groans...I'm very curious.

RDM is in a tough spot (primarily one of the reasons I left the game) It really doesn't bring anything to the table anymore. Chainspell stun isn't overly needed anymore (mostly because mobs just resist it so much over time, and RDM native Dark skill is on the break point of being useful with the cast.)

It shines in lower man groups as it always has, as do most hybrids (DNC, PUP, BLU) but for the most part in any large group event it is entirely replaceable by several other jobs. Especially now with /BLM offering stun to mage jobs who couldn't traditionally get away with /DRK. SCH/BLM WHM/BLM for example.

The enfeebling adjustment might help some...but unless SE address the issues with Enfeebling outside of just being able to land it will be a stretch there as well, as presently the issue with enfeebles is not whether or not they land, but whether or not the have any practical value being used.

Effects should be scaling with Enfeebling skill as well as MACC, But sadly they continue to be scaled from MND INT, which SCH WHM and BLM all have in great abundance as well.

Without a clear cut defining power, RDM will be woefully inferior as time progresses. But this is only a recent issue coinciding with the new higher levels. Prior to this period RDM was always needed because it had efficient use in a group, and it wasn't directly updated simply because it has always had that 75-80% efficiency compared to other classes.

Until SE addresses the 99/49 factor for many jobs, they will continually be opted out for more specialized roles.

Thats the point of tying it to the Skill system. It allows you to push the cap higher without destroying the current state of the game. Essentially it allows the classes with native skill to land slightly more often, and with it a slightly more potent enfeeble. Which in a game of min/maxing is welcome, there is a reason why you take the WAR over a RDM to melee because it has a statistical advantage in terms of ability/skills. RDM is not a bad melee, it can hold its own very well, but why go for the B level when you can get the A level.

The same would apply to RDM in an enfeebling aspect. Provided SE also changed the value of enfeebling, as presently outside of Dia III and maybe Slow II the rest are just not worth using as their effect is either very minimal (Blind/Gravity) or only works in a minimal capacity (Paralyze not being able to interrupt TP moves for example). On top of which the costs for the higher tier spells are absolutely atrocious compared with the effect vs the T1 spells cost/effect value.IMO I think the values are somewhat fair, but they cap to soon. The MP cost however needs to be lowered substantially. Like 15-20 MP for Para II especially if this new system is designed around spamming the spell to get a better chance at it landing.

Enfeebling is just all kinds of messed up to be honest, and I completely agree that the merits should be scrolls, and they should have been scrolls from day 1. Not only because it seems like a second thought system, but its a system in which you can not attain all the spells at any desirable level. (IMHO no spells should be merits merits should be used to enhance the effects of spells/abilities not grant spells.)

However because the root issues with enfeebling are almost impossible to change in the current game the only solution to give RDM anykind of unique positional roll is to enhance its value as the best enfeebling caster. Which can only really be attained by applying its skill advantage into the equation.

This is a similar adjustment to what they did with Healing Magic to "rebalance" the valuation of the natural healers against that of those attaining that value via sub job selection. (and if I can gloat was the idea I pitched on the SE general forum months before they implemented it =D shameless plug)

To be honest I think they should do something similar with enhancing magic as well, increasing potency of enhancements based on skill level. Meaning RDM can cast haste a little bit better, or cast a little bit better of a Refresh than say a SCH/RDM.

Lastly I think RDM needs the following changes to the class itself.

1) It needs to be put back on light heavy armor (back in the day it used to appear on chain like armor with WAR's DRK's PLD's)
- Outside of light leather gear RDM has been placed on cloth type armors for too long, it has been 25 levels. If you look at the gear increments of RDM as levels progress it varies between periods of caster heavy, and melee heavy options. This is no longer the case.

2) It needs to be able to somehow cast its buffs on more targets than one at a time (without needing /SCH and without some Aura based ability)
- I believe some type of single target spell that takes its buffs and applies them to others. Meaning you buff yourself up to a certain point (which can be done very fast) and you then cast this spell onto a specific target (party only) and apply all buffs from yourself to that target. So instead of having to cycle our spells over and over we do it once on ourselves and then cast 1 spell 5 times on the rest of our group. This spell should have a decent casting cost, 100-200MP, and be on a 15-20 second recast.
(in addition the duration of the buffs is based on the duration it would be on the RDM which is slightly higher than what we see currently.)

3) A clear purpose. RDM has never really had a clear purpose outside of old school meripo. Otherwise it has always been an in between class, a decent nuker/healer/melee, but it has no defined role. I like to compare RDM to DNC I feel it is the closest comparison to a hybrid job (BLU imo isn't as much of a hybrid because it can not really change roles on the fly due to spell setting). DNC has many similar tools, applied in a different way, it can be a decent healer, decent melee, and decent buffer/debuffer. But it also has a clear defined role in the game as well. It is arguably one of the best evasion tanks in the game.

I think RDM needs something like this, it needs to have a defined position that it can excel at while at the same time provide its secondary options. We used to have a role like this. Arguably RDM was the best tank in the game at one point, for overall survivability and hate control. It could cap total hate faster than PLD, and took less hits than NIN. Of course this didn't work to great with zergs as the RDM took 3-4 minutes to cap hate, but /THF side stepped this.

When SE took this away, RDM really lost any meaningful purpose for being in endgame, and that just so happened to coincide with the release and re-release of many endgame events.

I dunno I feel like I am rambling. RDM is broken it has been for many years, and the largest reason it can't be fixed is because the community is polarized between casting and melee, with few who see that both are decent and its a defined role that we can excel at that is missing.

Well, let's get hypothetical. How would you have Enfeebling skill affect Slow II? Every 5 points being 1%?

I just kinda think you could skip the malarky and jump up to Slow III at that point, hopefully something in the 50-55% range prior to gear and Saboteur. I'm sure it'd be a lot easier to implement, too. I'd even be okay with SCH getting Slow II under Addendum: White to help bridge a gap between enfeeblers not-RDM assuming merits ever go to scroll state.

Otherwise, the benefit of some skill-tweak system needs to be noticeable. Changing heals or SCH's Regens stands out, not because they were subtle, but because they were drastic changes. And I've long been of the mind that RDM's needed drastic changes to shake it out of the funk established and worsened since the 75-cap era. I'll agree other new jobs "stole" some potential thunder, but that doesn't mean all avenues have been explored yet. Though, it should also hammer home the difference between those who want to be RDMs and not SCHs.

Exactly which is why SE must define them as a specialist in some role. Enfeebling makes the most sense due to the skill, Enhancing makes a ton of sense due to its skill but otherwise really the only role they could seemingly fill is tanking. But SE can't do that without a huge overhaul to the job, or adjusting enfeebles to draw big hate again...(although this would limit SCH's BLM's WHM's ability to apply enfeebles which may be what RDM needs TBH).

@ Seriha.

I think you know I don't like responding to you, mostly because you are the queen of begging for handouts and I can't think of a single time where you did not ask for a new buff to RDM. But like the Healing magic issue you seem to be under the impression that we need "new" spells. RDM doesn't need new spells. It needs a reason to cast the ones it has, and it needs to be the best in doing so.

The only way to do this is to

1) Ease RDM casting load (which has been started but is not complete)
2) Tie Enfeebling potency into Skill AND relevant stats
3) Tie Enhancing potency

those stats are RDM's only native stats that are better than other jobs, and making the RDM the best in those avenues is the only way to ever give the job a hope at relevancy.



Every 5 maybe not every 10-15 sure. It is the same practice they employed with the Cure spell line. Jobs with natural skill have innate abitlity to cast those spells better. As it stands a WHM SCH heck even a BLM is capping all T1 enfeebles and landing them as often as a RDM. This is wrong. Another tier of spells isn't going to fix the problem because enfeebles themselves have been more or less pointless going on 2 years now.

Enfeebling needs to be fixed and RDM needs to be the one who can cast it the best. The only way to do this is to increases the potency value of enfeebles and make them effective. Effectiveness is indifferent of job. a TP move will never be paralyzed regardless what job puts paralyze on the enemy. This should be the first issue addressed. The second is to set RDM above other jobs by making its enfeebles the best (at T1 level thus carrying over to T2 maybe T3 if it ever comes out).

The fact is that Skill has to be the deal breaker it needs to be applied to increase spells above the cap. Regardless of RDM having sole access to T2 spells the fact is not all can be taken at one time, and jobs like BLM SCH and WHM are matching the T1 spells at cap with less the skill. and in some cases (SCH/RDM) using what should be half level spells at full effect, of a RDM.

That is what is wrong. Its not the spell options, it is the low level capping which RDM should be able to over come. The only way to do this is to attach Skill based potency to the effect of the spell while making the spells useful and required.

Which isn't going to happen anytime soon.


Edited, Jul 22nd 2012 8:19pm by rdmcandie

You aren't going to fix RDM at all. Unless you completely restructure the game to support RDM being unique in a role, or by restructuring RDM in its entirety from the ground up to fill a unique role in the current game.

Which isn't going to happen because SE continues to take parts of RDM and give them to new jobs. It started with BLU, it continued with DNC and SCH and now it is going to continue with GEO and FEN (or w/e the other new job is).

RDM can not be saved because there is no place for it in the game. Hybrids have no place when there are a half dozen better choices for filling particular roles.

This argument has run its course, as usual you are oblivious to the actual issues. There is nothing wrong with the job directly, the issue is the limiting nature of the game mechanics and the only way to increase RDM's relevance is by adjusting those limiting mechanics.

Instead of begging to become a one-trick pony with value in this event or that event, maybe it should be considered that the game simply needs events that cater to hybrids.

RDM shines in events such as Besieged, Campaign or Bastion, where it's self-support powers and survivability free it from reliance on party dynamics in a place where said dynamics were a liability. Obviously, PLD, BLU, DNC, and to a degree, even DRK do well in these settings. Walk of Echoes had potential to give hybrid classes a place to live up to their potential, but couldn't reconcile their desires for individualistic and cohesive party play. As a result, WoE ended up with mobs to dangerous to be handled the way you would in Campaign or Besieged, and players largely had to resort to old, party-dependent tactics for success.

Instead of pigeon-holing the job for the hope of giving it a place at other tables, give it a table where it sits at the head.

Perhaps the raw quantity provided by party play can't be eliminated, but maybe outclassed.

Events like Campaign brought a unique spin in that they actually rewarded individual and unconventional behavior. Sticking to the role of "DD" or "healer" or "buffer" didn't net the same points that one might gain from strapping on a less common sub and committing to more self-supporting actions. The highest scoring didn't DD or tank, but meleed, tanked, buffed self and others, healed self and others, as well as debuff. All this while providing mobs challenging enough that one could still stand a chance of losing if anyone was trying to skate. Applying a similar point system to future events would reward natural hybrids (that don't have to accustom themselves to an odd subjob to branch out their abilities), and discourage typical party roles, without necessarily abandoning cooperative efforts.

There could also be applied an inverse proportionality to rewards; the larger the group/alliance, the harder the opponent and fewer the drops, the smaller the group, the opponent's difficulty and powers scale to match and potential spoils increase.

I know this is an old post, but Just a quick 2 cents on the topic:

Honestly, a good RDM can solo most anything in the game still, so the class is not bad, it's a very powerful and versatile class.

... However, our the RDM state in the game is currently influenced by "necessity" (or lack there of). So I came up with an idea to "FIX" RDM's current state in the game.

Introduce a RDM "charge" system.

My idea is to let you build charges from each major debuff landed (Bio/Dia/Para/Slow/blind) and when the charges are full, you can expend them much like a DNC can use finishing moves to create a final "Boom" of a specific magical element via a job ability (there would be one JA for each element). Make the RDM finishing moves be "procs" in the events we play today, and tada, you have demand for RDM again, essentially making debuffs take the place of "steps" to create a sort of ranged-dancer class.

I imagine the damage of each fully-charged final boom should be roughly 90% of what a tier V nuke. Since the final boom would be JA based, it would be limited so it doesn't become overpowered, but easy to tie to enemy proc lists. It could have heavy modifying factors like "does more damage depending on the number of debuffs currently afflicting the target", to rationalize things like Bio, para, slow, etc, instead of just using "bio" over and over again.

Lets face it, this would not imbalance RDM, but it'd add some needed versatility without overlapping with DNC too much, and make it relevant again by getting it invites for procs, while also side-stepping the "RDM needs harder hitting nukes / heals" bs we see on the forums all the time.


Edited, Sep 7th 2012 3:10pm by FUJILIVES

Can't really say I lean toward it for two reasons. 1) It's basically immunobreak with a damage component. 2) No martial benefit.

1 basically means it, yes, is spamming enfeebles, which brings with it the usual host of issues ranging from land rate, potency, and overall lack of debuff variety for RDM.

2 hinges more on me wishing to see all of RDM's aspects better equalized and synergistic. Promoting situations of just spamming spells can be simply cycling of a different flavor while naturally diminishing swing time even if you were "allowed" to engage a target. Time and again I've argued that time we spend casting is time we can't melee, thus naturally parsing lower and thus being less effective if actually trying to be a diverse class. To add further insult, if you forgo all that and just swing away, you're still inferior to other jobs. Now, Fast Cast and Temper somewhat alleviate this, but not nearly enough to get anyone to notice or anyone outside of non-melee-hater RDM to care.

So, in short, if we're really keen on throwing stances around, I'd just like to reiterate my old charge-like idea rooted in Enspells. One stance will favor will upping buff potency/duration and cures. The other would benefit nuke and enfeeble potency. In a perfect setting, you'd start off in the first stance to get your party set up, then switch to the second once everyone's buffed (for hopefully 15 minutes or more). All you'd have to do is land a hit 3 times or more on a mob to get the best effect of either side for your next appropriate spell. Boom, we can finally do a bit of everything with the buff output being comparative to staff swapping.

Add a few more minor traits, some new debuffs (while scrolling T2s), improve our gear/WS selection a bit, and maybe traits that give TP for (de)buffs and we're more on track for being our own unique entity. Backlining still has its advantage of safety and lesser interaction, but stepping up would also finally have its benefits.

You might be able to solo 2/3 KI's but without procs its a hit or miss,
You will likely not be able to solo the lightning armor feeder NM
You will probably not be able to solo Briarius due to his abilities.

Ideal setup

WHM+NIN/WAR+WAR or
SCH (with good healing+%) + NIN/WAR +WAR.*



*WHM and SCH are best because they can most quickly top up the HP of the NIN following the Zombie debuff falling off. Which is very very important.* (RDM can be used but it is not really reliable due to the Zombie ability)

(WAR only needed for the feeder NM's and even then it only covers 3 procs.)