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#152 Oct 13 2011 at 12:26 AM Rating: Decent
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No no, I agree with you on the concept that one weapon can be 'the best' but at this point even the damage discrepancies are too far apart to make things like Saga Singer and the new TP drain Sword to seem effective.


Damage isn't the point of those swords, it's being able to remove offensive/defensive buffs (and apply them to yourself), especially vs. targets that are resistant/immune to Dispel (Sagasinger), or being able to directly cripple the target's TP gain through your primary damage source (whatever that thing's called). The latter especially makes anyone who manages to get one useful on the frontlines, no matter the target. I can definitely think of a number of situations where I'd use one or the other over Almace.

Oh yeah and the resistance to Terror on Sagasinger is pretty badass, if i'm soloing/tanking something that uses Terror, I'd definitely use it.

Edited, Oct 13th 2011 2:28am by LyltiaofLakshmi
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#153 Oct 13 2011 at 1:24 AM Rating: Excellent
Something they could potentially do that'd help make Rdm melee better and not "force" them to rely on a single weaponskill from an Empyrean/WoE weapon is adjust the TP modifiers on Death Blossom and/or make it a crit hit weaponskill. Maybe temper it down so that it's not as strong as Vorpal Blade, but it'd allow them to deal higher damage through physical means rather than elemental weaponskills and not force them to use a subjob that might otherwise not be that useful to them. They could go Rdm/Blm or Rdm/Sch or something, thus not sacrificing the tools from those subjobs that make them so beneficial, but they'd have access to a decently powerful WS all the same that'd allow them to still melee effectively. That way it'd affect Rdm specifically but wouldn't really hurt Pld or Blu.
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#154 Oct 13 2011 at 1:45 AM Rating: Good
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It would have to be more powerful then Vorpal Blade to contend without the extra hit from Dual Weild if you're trying to intend it for us on a non Melee subjob, Vol. The issue there is that it's already a hit behind Vopral Blade without the crit chance.

DB does have the 30% MND Modifier to their advantage, but the lower Strength Mod and the loss of hit really hurt it.

Either way, if you're going sub mage it would likely be better as you'll have the advantage of Magical Attack Bonus (more from /blm) for the WS, and the ease of gear swapping for it.

In the end I still believe we should have access to EX weaponskills. It's a dated balance factor that is likely no logner valid in today's game.



@Lyltia if the strenght of the resist Terror is strong enough, I'd wear it even if I wasn't tanking a Terror using mob. Terror is just as dangerous for mages as it is for melee if the range is wide enough. Slap it onto idle gear or take the hit in potency just to make sure you're at the ready.

Still. You cant sacrafice a ton of damage just to have a utility. And Sagasinger if I remember correctly does not overwrite enspells so you'd have to sack that to use it's effect, though you could manually deactivate that if that was the case.

Either way, the utility at the sacrafice of such a large margin of damage isn't exactly a happy medium. I would still like to see a more global improvement on Sword Weaponskills.

I was once on the boat of trying to make a non-damage reason to let RDM melee, but SE made it pretty clear on the official boards that RDM melee is for damage assistance, and that abilities they'll receive to aid it will assist RDM to that end. So if we're looking for ways to make our Melee a utility, we're going to have to look at utility swords themselves. Thankfully, we have a good number of them now to choose form, albiet at the sacrifice of enspells. (But most higher end mobs resist enspells to **** anyways so I guess that's not a big issue.)
#155 Oct 13 2011 at 2:14 AM Rating: Excellent
Unless I'm mistaken, the Str mod on the two are identical, then it has the additional Mnd mod to it as well. I know that those by themselves wouldn't boost them over Vorpal Blade, but doing that would allow you to still put out decent sword damage without being dependent on your subjob like you would with trying to get Vorpal Blade. I know it's not something that'd solve everything, but it would help a bit.
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#156 Oct 13 2011 at 3:43 AM Rating: Decent
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Cool, go play Corsair then - they've already got both of those and we can really deal without the redundancy.


LOL the same could be said about melee, healing, nuking, and pretty much everything RDM does in general. Love how default to go play X job. The same thing people have been telling RDM's who wished to melee to do for years.
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#157 Oct 13 2011 at 8:08 AM Rating: Good
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Notice the one you're not talking about, RCD, Enfeebeling.

You can increase EVERY aspect that's secondary to Red Mage, as well as support, by flushing out that role!

Need more heals? Not if the monster cant deal damage worth a sh*t.

Need more nuking power? Debuff it's magical defense and resistance.

Need more physical damage? layer on those defense debuffs.

And guess what? That's a form of supporting your party, or even alliance!


We need to stop believing the way to success is to emulate the exact same thing every other job does as a path to success. It hasn't work for nine years and it won't now. There is a clear, open, unpolished yet easily understandable path for this job to follow. It was the path we were supposed to be walking for this decade and have failed due to lack of being unique and effective in that role.

You want to go ahead and play like you're another job than what you are? Request away. Maybe you'll get lucky.

But Red Mage is an enfeebeler. Not a healer, not a nuker, not a melee, most definitely not an AoE buffer: These are things we do to fill gaps in the group after our debuff line is cast. Haste and Refresh? THEY are gimmicks. Powerful gimmicks, mind you, but are still gimmicks. They've been used as to shoe us in for parties and for endgame events to bandaid against our terribly inadequate main function for years.

Turning that bandaid into a splint solves nothing for the class. If you want to turn RDM into something respectable for endgame you're going to have to fix the bone: Our enfeebling diversity and mechanics.




Edited, Oct 13th 2011 10:09am by Hyrist
#158 Oct 13 2011 at 8:21 AM Rating: Good
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Vlorsutes, Lord of Stuff wrote:
Unless I'm mistaken, the Str mod on the two are identical, then it has the additional Mnd mod to it as well. I know that those by themselves wouldn't boost them over Vorpal Blade, but doing that would allow you to still put out decent sword damage without being dependent on your subjob like you would with trying to get Vorpal Blade. I know it's not something that'd solve everything, but it would help a bit.


*checks* Why did I think DB had a 20% str mod? Anyways, you're correct on the stats. The issue here is you're not thinking of this as a complete package.

We're losing not one hit under vorpal, but two by being one hit under vorpal and then taking out the offhand hit when we swap out of a dual wielding subjob.

Vorpal Blade as it is isn't respectable as a damaging WS, it's just what Sword Has that fills the bill. You would have to make Death Blossom a natural 4 hit and retain its modifiers for it where it was when you had it /nin or /dnc. And by then, it would pass up Vorpal blade.

And of course, that doesn't change the fact that our Magical WSes would be more convenient of a use considering we're already tight in the gear department. A magical WS that would deal better-than-vorpal-blade damage and modified by our nuking gear allows us to ditch a fully dedicated WS set and use most of our nukeset instead.

But sadly all the good ones on sword are EX anyways, so the first change would have to come from that department. Unless you want to make DB the first ever multi-hit magical WS that could Double Attack and crit I'd be down for something like that though I doubt the mechanics can be done that way.
#159 Oct 13 2011 at 9:29 AM Rating: Excellent
Hyrist wrote:
Vlorsutes, Lord of Stuff wrote:
Unless I'm mistaken, the Str mod on the two are identical, then it has the additional Mnd mod to it as well. I know that those by themselves wouldn't boost them over Vorpal Blade, but doing that would allow you to still put out decent sword damage without being dependent on your subjob like you would with trying to get Vorpal Blade. I know it's not something that'd solve everything, but it would help a bit.


*checks* Why did I think DB had a 20% str mod? Anyways, you're correct on the stats. The issue here is you're not thinking of this as a complete package.

We're losing not one hit under vorpal, but two by being one hit under vorpal and then taking out the offhand hit when we swap out of a dual wielding subjob.

Vorpal Blade as it is isn't respectable as a damaging WS, it's just what Sword Has that fills the bill. You would have to make Death Blossom a natural 4 hit and retain its modifiers for it where it was when you had it /nin or /dnc. And by then, it would pass up Vorpal blade.

And of course, that doesn't change the fact that our Magical WSes would be more convenient of a use considering we're already tight in the gear department. A magical WS that would deal better-than-vorpal-blade damage and modified by our nuking gear allows us to ditch a fully dedicated WS set and use most of our nukeset instead.

But sadly all the good ones on sword are EX anyways, so the first change would have to come from that department. Unless you want to make DB the first ever multi-hit magical WS that could Double Attack and crit I'd be down for something like that though I doubt the mechanics can be done that way.


I know that Vorpal Blade isn't necessarily a top of the line weaponskill, I was just saying that perhaps what they could do would be to adjust how Death Blossom works (its TP modifiers or make it a crit hit ws) to put it more on par with Vorpal Blade so they can have a good weaponskill that isn't Chant du Cygne and doesn't also require them to use a specific subjob. Vorpal Blade's not a bad weaponskill by any means (like the Raging Rush of sword WS, whereas CdC is like Ukko's Fury), but as pointed out, to have this decent WS limits them to subjobs that might not be optimal in all situations.

I'm not saying that it's the only way they could boost Rdm melee capabilities and not adversely affect Pld or Blu, I'm just saying that it's one way they could potentially change.
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#160 Oct 13 2011 at 9:56 AM Rating: Good
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Ok going to correct a few misconceptions about various WS's first and foremost.

One is that Vorpal is indeed a "top of the line" WS, it's all in how you play with the numbers. Its four hits 1.0 fTP with 30% STR mod. The biggest mistake I see with people gearing for these things is they go straight for the WSC and completely ignore attack, and it cripples them. I've pumped out ridiculous vorpals on my WAR just to prove people wrong about this. Naitive access to Vorpal / Sand Blade would instantly fix the WS issue, that or make DB a 1.5 fTP WS with a chance at criting. Although honestly I'd go with the vorpal route, easier and less places for SE to **** up. For mage subjobs situations you have S.Blade, it doesn't care about your main hand weapon nor your off hand weapon.

Next is the issue behind CDC. CDC is an amazing WS, I destroy VWNM's with it and have opened quite a few eyeballs doing so. It takes some playing with but we can get pretty nice damage both inside and outside of abyssea. My only beef is that every other weapon absolutely sucks in comparison. There are some very potent combos you can put together with the Magian weapons, but your limited because without CDC you have absolutely no good sword WS. With us not being on the magian daggers it further limits your selection for using Evis.

Now onto how to get good damage out of your WS's. First and foremost is assuming you have acc under control, you need attack and then more attack. Learn to get good at guesstimating how much defense the targets have and how much attack you need to reach 1.5 ratio, maybe even 2.0 ratio. Same with accuracy, learn to feel when your hitting over 80~85%. These are things your going to learn through lots of self parsing, no other way about it. Now assuming you can get a decent attack, pile on DEX if it's CDC, otherwise STR and more STR. STR counts twice, once for fSTR and again for WSC. fSTR is the equivalent of 25~30% STR WSC, so for Vorpal / DB any STR pieces you use get to count twice. fSTR caps rather high and the chances of most RDM's ever seeing it outside of abyssea are rather low.

A note about accuracy, accuracy is extremely easy to fix now. It used to be our bane back when we were 75, but with the way skill has scales vs monster evasion you will more then likely be capped or near capped with minimal effort. If it's a situation where your missing too much, then switch to Pizza or even Sushi (THF NM's). It's better to wear haste gear and use Pizza / Sushi then to try to use acc gear and eat meat. We don't get enough acc gear and the amount of acc you get from Pizza / Sushi is so great that you'd have to switch out tons of gear to make up for it.

And Hyrist, DB is 30% STR 50% MND three hit 1.15 ftp WS. Meaning under DW your looking at 4.15 worth of fTP before DA / Temper are counted in. Once you get attack up there then focus on STR / MND items, but remember you get more from STR then MND until fSTR cap (fSTR WSC and attack together). Before CDC I had a pretty good DB built and was able to churn out some impressive numbers, although it never quite lived up to what I expected from it.

Finally, RDM isn't about pure damage, if I wanted to do pure damage then I'd come on my WAR, SAM, DRK or BLU. RDM is about combining support with damage dealing. Refresh II the WHM, land Dia III / Slow II / Para II (if it sticks) on the NM and have a Cure IV <stal> macro handy for spamming Cure IV to help the WHM out. I actually find myself healing the WHM and BRD more often then not. (PLD PLD RDM WHM BRD + Other is the usual tank PT). Carry around three tools at least, one for lowering earth resist, one for lowering ice resist and the last for lowering thunder resist. One of my favorite tactics now is to listen on vent for when our two PLD's are coordinating the CDC -> CDC light SC's. If I start the Thunder IV about a second after the first guy goes I can get a very nice MB. If I'm in mid cast then I'll have to resort to the Insta Cast JA for landing it. Next favorite tactic is to toss Suiton (thunder down) onto the NM then Instant cast Thunder IV followed by another Thunder IV, both will land within the 15s time frame for nice damage. My only wish was that it was on a lower timer, 10min is too long. Along with doing this I'm spamming CDC whenever possible. Skin + Phalanx + natural MDB means I actually live longer then our DD's with only our two PLD's being harder to kill. This has been rather evident while killing the add's spawned by the new VWNMs.
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#161 Oct 13 2011 at 9:57 AM Rating: Good
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Sorry. I have a habit of playing devil's advocate with all situations.

There's also something to consider that we're coming near a new tier for skill raitings. We've probably 1 more Weapon Skill per weapon type to go and that can also be used as a solution through creating something new and useful.

Again my goal is to try to find ideas with high possibilities of implimentation. Though, in the case where they're adjusting weapon skills, there can be many solutions implemented at once.

On thing in particular about Magical Weaponskills being boosted as a priority for me is that it will reflect on more than just RDM as a job, but make other jobs perhaps give a nod to them as well. Especially Dark Knight and their new, yet flawed, Scarlet Delirium. Boots to Magical WSes for them paired with adjustments to this ability will make it something usable for them.

We've seen how Magic WSes can be powerful thanks to how Abyssea allowed us to push the stats to incredible levels. SE just needs to up the Ante on it outside of Abyssea.
#162 Oct 13 2011 at 10:04 AM Rating: Good
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Saevell what's your current TP/WS build? (with the interest being more in the latter as I believe I've seen your TP build before)

Edited, Oct 13th 2011 12:04pm by Hyrist
#163 Oct 13 2011 at 2:20 PM Rating: Default
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Notice the one you're not talking about, RCD, Enfeebeling.


No your right I suppose me Capitalizing and Bolding the part in my post that says

Lets these work on all mobs, is no mention to enfeebling spells. How silly of me to not include them in the list of mechanical issues in the game.

Oh wait...

Quote:
We need to stop believing the way to success is to emulate the exact same thing every other job does as a path to success. It hasn't work for nine years and it won't now.


It worked pretty good from 2005-2010. I mean of course you wouldn't notice that because you were to busy being a hero for RDM melee (which was fine at the time too). RDM has always functioned best by emulating other jobs, and because of that emulation it excelled as a solo job. Now it is not emulating anything, and is worthless in mostly every situation that is relevant. (and no healing abyssea is not relevant as my BLM/WHM does it just as well, while providing additional procs.)

Fact of the matter is unless RDM has a viable role in a group it will be useless. You accused me earlier of being stuck in ToAU, while that may be true I am also realistic. RDM will never be sought after for its DD, because SE will never make its DD more viable then a job with 1 dedicated role. It will never be sought after as a main healer for anything of merit because WHM and SCH are unable to preform as many tasks.

The game mechanics are the issue, not the spells, not any of the fluff you try to push as job saving. There is no reason a BLM/WHM should heal as well as my RDM (BLM/RDM in one level) there is no reason SCH should be able to buff as well as us using our own buffs.

Enfeebling is an issue, but it is not the crux of the issue. Fun fact, Hojo and Jubaku do not stack with Slow or Para, fun fact 2 NIN is way more useful then RDM in the current game, fun fact #3, unless SE stops with this self target buff stupidity RDM is not going to be called on for everything.

Back to TOAU for a minute, as much as I **** and moaned about how Melee was viable for nearly half a decade, I enjoyed buffing my group and increasing the potential of DD's. Currently the only "buff" I have that no one else has is Dia III. Which funnily enough COR/RDM can match on its own, while applying its own buffs (take your pick from the long list) oh and in 1 level it will get Haste an Cure 4 to go along with convert and refresh.

Oh then there is BRD/RDM who in one level can give 10tick refresh, 35% haste, 10% def down, or any combination of such stats really.

You think RDM is missing out because Slow and Para do not work on NM's, honestly that is your end all solution to all our issues.

Ahh @#%^ it ill stop here, it is pointless talking to Alma 2.0.


Ahhh what the hell.

Everything you have posted in reply to me screams of "Please don't suggest this lest we be shoe horned into a non melee role again." Hence my original basis for not reading your post earlier. You are afraid you won't be able to use your sword, guess what, I doubt you use it now on anything that is relevant, likely because you don't get an invite because you have a job that is useless in pretty well all content. But soloing is fun too.


Edited, Oct 13th 2011 4:24pm by rdmcandie
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#164 Oct 13 2011 at 3:29 PM Rating: Good
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Ok.

Everything you've said, I've replied to already in previous posts, or is an insult I don't care to get baited to reply to. The difference between Alma and I is I do know when to stop. You wish to be completely immovable in your beliefs, that's your prerogative.

I'd like to believe that eventually you'll catch up to the current meta of the game soon. However, if it's taken you this long to catch up to issues that's been in existence since sky, and still have a ToAU "must get into 6 man party" mentality, I hold little hope.



Edited, Oct 13th 2011 5:32pm by Hyrist
#165 Oct 13 2011 at 3:56 PM Rating: Good
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rdmcandie wrote:
It worked pretty good from 2005-2010. I mean of course you wouldn't notice that because you were to busy being a hero for RDM melee (which was fine at the time too). RDM has always functioned best by emulating other jobs, and because of that emulation it excelled as a solo job. Now it is not emulating anything, and is worthless in mostly every situation that is relevant. (and no healing abyssea is not relevant as my BLM/WHM does it just as well, while providing additional procs.)
What's this emulation you speak of? Magic of a WHM, magic of a BLM, melee of a... some job (probably more like PLD). It still emulates other jobs plenty, just not on the same tier, which actually, is how it was meant to play. What's the problem?

rdmcandie wrote:
Fact of the matter is unless RDM has a viable role in a group it will be useless.
And people die when they are killed. You aren't saying anything revelatory here. The same could possibly held true of any other job, especially so if RDM comes to infringe upon it.

rdmcandie wrote:
RDM will never be sought after for its DD, because SE will never make its DD more viable then a job with 1 dedicated role.
So it's okay that melee never become viable for potential compromise to DDs, but you want healing to be buffed, despite the potential compromise to WHM?

rdmcandie wrote:
It will never be sought after as a main healer for anything of merit because WHM and SCH are unable to preform as many tasks.
So because WHM and SCH are less versatile (as in: more specialized), RDM has no chance of overtaking them in their native roles? Imagine that.

rdmcandie wrote:
The game mechanics are the issue, not the spells, not any of the fluff you try to push as job saving. There is no reason a BLM/WHM should heal as well as my RDM (BLM/RDM in one level) there is no reason SCH should be able to buff as well as us using our own buffs.
I do indeed agree that the core mechanics are flawed. But, while there is an inherent problem with Healing skill, the only problem with SCH buffing is that SCH exists. From the moment it was introduced to the game, it was very visibly RDM's back line equivalent: AoE where we're self/single target, magical boosts where we're more leveled out, maritally weak where we're visibly stronger... staff access where we're lacking. Several of SCH's attributes (Accession in particular), had been proposed by players for RDM several years before SCH was ever introduced, and yet SCH got those additions, RDM didn't. RDM's problem is that SCH is there at all.

But, there's not really any going back--SE won't simply take SCH out of the game and hand over it's powers just to make RDM more magically relevant. Rather than throwing a bunch of similar powers on RDM, creating potentially harmful overlap, better still to accentuate the differences between the two, and push to make them relevant.

Finally, as flawed as mechanics are for healing, so too are they flawed for enfeebling, a flaw which hinders event invites as much as any healing or buffing problems. No reason fixing enfeebling issues on HNMs is less relevant than fixing healing.

rdmcandie wrote:
Enfeebling is an issue, but it is not the crux of the issue. Fun fact, Hojo and Jubaku do not stack with Slow or Para, fun fact 2 NIN is way more useful then RDM in the current game, fun fact #3, unless SE stops with this self target buff stupidity RDM is not going to be called on for everything.
Very good? RDM never should get called on for everything, no job should.

If Hojo and Jubaku don't stack with Slow and Para, that might be something that could use changing to promote tandem efforts. The devs aimed to provide alternatives, but only ended up forcing discrimination in that respect.

Enfeebling isn't the crux of the issue, but it would make a ton of difference were it addressed.

rdmcandie wrote:
Back to TOAU for a minute, as much as I **** and moaned about how Melee was viable for nearly half a decade, I enjoyed buffing my group and increasing the potential of DD's. Currently the only "buff" I have that no one else has is Dia III. Which funnily enough COR/RDM can match on its own, while applying its own buffs (take your pick from the long list) oh and in 1 level it will get Haste an Cure 4 to go along with convert and refresh.
Since when has having shared buffs stopped us from being considered for support. WHM has always gotten Haste before RDM, but since '04, RDM was always the first job looked at for the spell; exclusivity of support spells was never the problem. If you love buffing your allies that much, you'll stop worrying about what unique and precious new toy you have, and simply get to buffing them, meanwhile the COR might not mind subbing another job. Two buffers can exist in the same party. They don't necessarily oppose each other.

rdmcandie wrote:
Oh then there is BRD/RDM who in one level can give 10tick refresh, 35% haste, 10% def down, or any combination of such stats really.
So the specialized support class is really good at it? And better with support powers form a sub? Really? Wow.

Again, the BRD doesn't have to /RDM, and you're not lost for purpose if he does. Unless you get laughed out of parties for meleeing or nuking or, you know... enfeebling.

rdmcandie wrote:
You think RDM is missing out because Slow and Para do not work on NM's, honestly that is your end all solution to all our issues.
And you think RDM is missing out because it doesn't have Cure V and AoEs, and talk as if that's the end-all solution.

rdmcandie wrote:
You are afraid you won't be able to use your sword, guess what, I doubt you use it now on anything that is relevant, likely because you don't get an invite because you have a job that is useless in pretty well all content. But soloing is fun too.
That's a red herring. If RDM is barred form meleeing in parties now, it's sure as **** not because support/healing is at all compromised. Get invited to heal/support and pull out your sword and expect to either be kicked or cursed out to the back line.

Really, there's nothing you've complained about that doesn't have several different solutions. Reading and re-reading your post, all it sounds is that you're mad RDM is no longer the supremely popular Pink Mage. You've been talking under this assumption that the job's salvation lay in support, when it was never even good at support. All the job ever had was Refresh and Fast Cast to shore up it's abundant inefficiencies.

You call yourself a realist, but you're blind to the job's first and most obvious strength--the ability to take care of itself--instead clinging to all it's weakest attributes.



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#166 Oct 13 2011 at 5:02 PM Rating: Default
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why do you people always put it back to Parties? Parties are irrelevant, groups of people for endgame is relevant, and RDM is not effective in any role in current endgame. (except for nuking).

Edited, Oct 13th 2011 7:04pm by rdmcandie
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#167 Oct 13 2011 at 5:40 PM Rating: Excellent
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Anywhere you want to play is relevant, and I'm pretty **** sure being on RDM as I have for my shell's recent Voidwatch endeavors has been helpful in all capacities save melee. Could some things be better? Sure. Not effective? I wonder what game you're playing. Actually, I'd be interested in seeing a screenshot of your current VW Abyssite KIs.
#168 Oct 13 2011 at 6:43 PM Rating: Default
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I don't even play.
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#169 Oct 13 2011 at 8:52 PM Rating: Good
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This explains the dated viewpoints...

RCD: We may disagree, but I encourage you to get back into the game if you can. Even if RDM is having difficulties, it's been improving somewhat.

/SCH is starting to fill in with more abilities, such as now getting Helixes (albeit, weaker ones) and more 'storm' abilities starting to fill in, which pair well with the fact that Kilmaform is subabble and not restricted. I think you'd enjoy those aspects nicely.

It might do you well to play a bit of Voidwatch too and see what we mean about monsters bypassing instead of simply resisting spells.

At the very least reactivate to jump into the test server, so you can see these changes at they're happening. It's quite interesting, and a fun alternative to gear grinding.

Edited, Oct 13th 2011 10:56pm by Hyrist
#170 Oct 13 2011 at 9:11 PM Rating: Default
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hahahhaha w/e you say champ, a month ago you were calling me a wagon jumper because I leveled DNC BLM WHM BRD. You know why I leveled these jobs...because every one of them is more useful in the game to my friends...ie. the people I played with on a daily basis. The job I didn't use my lvl 90 RDM

You know why it didn't get used?

Because my BLM/WHM healed as well as it and nuked better than it.
Because my WHM/SCH healed better and buffed better.
Because my DNC/NIN melee'd better and tanked better.
Because my BRD/WHM healed and supported better.

During RoZ I had RDM for these things, During CoP i had RDM for these things, During ToAU i had RDM for these things, during WoTG I had RDM for these things.

And in 1 level you can add COR/RDM, BLU/RDM, SMN/RDM to jobs that are more useful. It isn't that RDM does not have the tools, it is that SE is imposing limitations to healing, enfeebling, and enhancing magics as far as RDM is concerned.

And unless this issue is fixed properly (ie. not new fluff added on to a foundation that is not sound. Would you rather a foundation of cement? or of sand) I won't play RDM anymore because it is inefficient for anything, and many jobs /RDM are way more useful to a group, and offer just as much if not more than Rdm does.

You need to get out of your RDM is useful mindset, because it is not, unfortunately, but it isn't, and it is not because we do not have the tools, it is because our tools are limited for no real reason. This includes healing, enfeebling, enhancing, and your precious Melee.

I am all for better melee less time casting, but not at the cost of our utility or job identity and currently our job identity is nothing(not even jack of all trades), and our utility is diminishing every update and the next will leave us with Refresh II and Dia III.

But ya everything is kosher in RDM land, just toss us more sh*t on a foundation that isn't stable. 100 more enfeebles please even though you keep making mobs immune to enfeebles. 50 new self buffs please, even though we can not use them to buff our allies.

If you honestly think our issue is lack of abilities tell me so I can stop replying to you.

Edited, Oct 13th 2011 11:29pm by rdmcandie
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#171 Oct 13 2011 at 10:52 PM Rating: Good
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Everything you've said, I've replied to already in previous posts, or is an insult I don't care to get baited to reply to. The difference between Alma and I is I do know when to stop. You wish to be completely immovable in your beliefs, that's your prerogative.
#172 Oct 15 2011 at 12:01 PM Rating: Decent
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rdmcandie wrote:
I am all for better melee less time casting, but not at the cost of our utility or job identity and currently our job identity is nothing(not even jack of all trades)
Here's where you majorly err. The job's identity is: 1 part melee, 1 part white magic, 1 part black magic. That's it.

If there was any element or change that jeopardized our job's identity, it was when we went from "melee, white magic, black magic" to "support/mezz" job. If you want it put another way, what should be tertiary aspects of a job were turned into the primary aspects of RDM. And that burden is one we haven't been able to shake off between the blind naysayers that liked their easy invites and Tanaka and Matsui keeping their heads in the sand (and their HNM soloing butthurt that followed). I might also add Yoshida and Mr. I-made-CoP to the list, as they were largely responsible for the RDM empyrean armor and the post-75 job progression (AKA our being kept off Sang Blade and the magian daggers).

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The game mechanics are the issue, not the spells, not any of the fluff you try to push as job saving. There is no reason a BLM/WHM should heal as well as my RDM (BLM/RDM in one level) there is no reason SCH should be able to buff as well as us using our own buffs.
That's not so much a game mechanic but rather the foundation behind the whole game, as your complaint is entirely rooted on the way subjobs work.

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We need to stop believing the way to success is to emulate the exact same thing every other job does as a path to success. It hasn't work for nine years and it won't now.
Depends on where you look and how the class design handles it. It'd be one thing if the aspects of RDM could play nice with each other within the same context instead of what eventually crammed it into a niche because it wasn't useful in any other way to a group.
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#173 Oct 15 2011 at 1:14 PM Rating: Decent
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Depends on where you look and how the class design handles it. It'd be one thing if the aspects of RDM could play nice with each other within the same context instead of what eventually crammed it into a niche because it wasn't useful in any other way to a group.


Useful is really contextual to your group, and subjective to opinions, however.

For example, a great vast number of RDM's call to be a better healer so they can support in HNM endgame, but Saevel already puts into practice a damaging support aspect on his own.

And I find solutions to our healing problem taking to the front lines /dnc outside HNM endgame.

But neither of these really provide a clear 'niche' as you put it that we can declare for RDM itself. And enfeebeling as a set class role, really dosen't exist in this game, as Red Mage is sort of forced to do that on the side of being other functions, like the support aspects RCD desires.

If we flushed enfeebeling more, it would be a 'role' for us, that we can have while our other aspects also improve.

Either way, We need our enfeebles to be more accurate, and in my opinion, more enfeebles that are effective instead just the ones we have. This way, if a monster is say, immune to Debuff "A" We still have B, C, D, and E to varying effectiveness to use, and they will still have an impact. Right now, NMs are bypassing too many at once, leaving primarily Dia III as the only staple to rely upon in that field.


I see your idea that our traditional job identity should be our main. Once I really really forcefully agreed with that, and still believe it's a capable role to use if you can find a group to accept it, and the gear to support it. I love being a generalist.

However, beyond that we need a niche of our own, instead of borrowing off of someone else, so that we're not seen as a redundant mesh of roles that specialists could do better. Better enfeebeling I view would enable us that niche without harming our versatility in doing other things as the group needs or accepts of you.

Edited, Oct 15th 2011 3:15pm by Hyrist
#174 Oct 15 2011 at 1:41 PM Rating: Decent
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Here's where you majorly err. The job's identity is: 1 part melee, 1 part white magic, 1 part black magic. That's it.


No the jobs identity was the fact that it could move into various roles. It at one point was a competant healer, nuker, melee, tank, buff/debuff (support) job.

Now it is a nuker and melee (melee is more effective on lower tier content and Nuking is more effective on higher tier content).

It's support side is heavily lacking due to Enfeebles being either outright resisted or having no effect (do to the nature of mobs attacks/abilities), and our enhancing magic recent additions being self target only. The issue will only compound when /RDM gives access to haste. (due to performance enhancements by jobs I already listed previously).

It's healing side is lacking in comparison to both SCH and WHM, and will soon be on par with anything /RDM, currently it is very slightly ahead of /WHM healing jobs due to convert. SCH has rapture, and the upcoming regen adjustments, an WHM has everything.

It's tanking ability was nerfed hard a long time ago and more or less the nail in the coffin was a recent trait that reduced the enmity gainedon cures (effectively destroying "cure cheat" enmity capping).

RDM's niche was (and should still be) the fact that it could seamlessly transition from healer to nuker, to melee, to support with gear swaps (and neutral subjob selections such as /DNC, /NIN or /SCH) no other class in the game offers the kind of versatility RDM has. SCH is limited to Arts, BLU is limited to spell sets, SMN is limited to -perp cost (and lengthy ability timers), PUP is limited to Auto set up (which requires reactivation if a change is needed) DRG is limited by subjob, DNC is limited in TP use. RDM is the only "hybrid" that can seamlessly change roles with simple gear swaps.

The issue is that Our current roles have more or less been limited to melee or nuking, healing is pretty weak in content that matters, our support options are virtually nonexistent in the current game, and as stated earlier, tanking has long since expired.



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#175 Oct 15 2011 at 3:29 PM Rating: Good
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Hyrist wrote:
Useful is really contextual to your group
I disagree. Useful generally applies to most if not all situations. The group should not be a factor barring freak occurrences or really odd compositions. There's a reason my stance on RDM is more focused on player choice rather than the group choosing your role for you. In Ruisu World, that means that if you choose to heal, you should be useful doing so, same thing for DPS and nuking. That's not how RDM plays, and people are so conditioned to cramming (if non-RDM) or being crammed (if RDM) into "support" and heals that we have individuals running around asking for these very things because aside from that the job lacks a real focus, gimmick or theme. I don't blame players for being confused. After all, we're the job that's called fencer and duelist but get AF sets loaded with mage stats.

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Either way, We need our enfeebles to be more accurate, and in my opinion, more enfeebles that are effective instead just the ones we have. This way, if a monster is say, immune to Debuff "A" We still have B, C, D, and E to varying effectiveness to use, and they will still have an impact. Right now, NMs are bypassing too many at once, leaving primarily Dia III as the only staple to rely upon in that field.
The problem here is more the fact that the FF-brand enfeebles are pretty powerful in terms of MMO debuffs, and because of that there are few places they can go. That's largely why you have things come out lackluster like Break. The other half of the problem is that instead of doing more things along the route of Slow and Addle, too many of them function in terms of absolutes. Para procs, you take no damage. Para doesn't proc, you take damage. Amnesia lands, you can't use TP moves and JAs. Amnesia misses, you can use TP moves and JAs. Silence lands, mob can't cast spells. Silence gets resisted, mob can cast spells. Notice the pattern? It's all "is" or "is not".

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However, beyond that we need a niche of our own, instead of borrowing off of someone else, so that we're not seen as a redundant mesh of roles that specialists could do better.
At the very baseline, the job was created borrowing stuff from others. It's a guy with a sword and some magic. Now, the application of what it has borrowed could be useful in defining RDM and giving it flavor, but that's more for the devs to chew on (though I do have my own ideas on how that would work).
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#176 Oct 15 2011 at 4:00 PM Rating: Decent
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Not to mention RDM is pretty subjob dependent in order to be more efficient in certain roles.

BLM, WHM, SCH are all subjobs for use in a more mage roll, with each being used for a specific reason, to benefit us more in a specific art we want to focus on. WHM for overall best healing role options, BLM for overall best utility options, and SCH for a balance of each with limitations.

WAR, BLU, DNC are all subjobs we use in a more melee offensive category with an option to provide additional support (DNC)

NIN I keep this separate as it is kind of a neutral sub, it has great potential offensively in a melee role, and it has the capacity for a more reserved caster role when holding NM's or soloing etc.

Everything about RDM is borrowed from other jobs, and we pick and choose a plethora of jobs to use to get additional benefits from. RDM is not cut and dry like THF/NIN, or WAR/SAM, or SAM/WAR, or the like. RDM has reason to sub almost every job in the game in some capacity from (ex. /COR in old meripo for COR roll if running 2x BRD, (or even BRD COR))

RDM is all about taking from other jobs. It is funny you are pleased with Temper, which is a direct rip off from WAR's native DA trait. Yet are opposing the fact that RDM should be on the same level elsewhere. Such as getting cure V (or my preferred method of adjusting caps on C1-C4). Allowing all our buffs to be accessioned. Other jobs are pulling ahead of is in all departments, some are moving in leaps and bounds.

I promise you if SE does not fix RDM enhancing, enfeebling and healing before the next cap increase, RDM will not be asked for anything with BRD SMN COR offering everything a RDM can, and then some. It doesn't need new fluff, it needs its mechanics to be fixed. The limits imposed on us because of Soloing, and bad mob design by SE (Colibri for the most part) have vastly limited us, and until the mechanics are fixed you can apply all the bandaids you want, and the problem will not go away.


Edited, Oct 15th 2011 6:01pm by rdmcandie
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#177 Oct 15 2011 at 7:27 PM Rating: Decent
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I disagree. Useful generally applies to most if not all situations.


You'll get no argument from me that a Generalist is not useful. The argument you will get from others is that a generalist is not useful enough in the presence of a team of specialists.

Quote:
The problem here is more the fact that the FF-brand enfeebles are pretty powerful in terms of MMO debuffs, and because of that there are few places they can go. That's largely why you have things come out lackluster like Break. The other half of the problem is that instead of doing more things along the route of Slow and Addle, too many of them function in terms of absolutes. Para procs, you take no damage. Para doesn't proc, you take damage. Amnesia lands, you can't use TP moves and JAs. Amnesia misses, you can use TP moves and JAs. Silence lands, mob can't cast spells. Silence gets resisted, mob can cast spells. Notice the pattern? It's all "is" or "is not".


Then break tradition. It's not as if we haven't with the Gain Spells, or nearly Sch's entire unique spell library. I'm not looking for absolute enfeebles when I try to suggest what SE does to fill their proclamation that we're getting new enfeebles. I'm looking for something that will work like slow and Addle and passively weaken the monsters attacks, the degree to which depending on the function of the spell itself.

Quote:
RDM is all about taking from other jobs. It is funny you are pleased with Temper, which is a direct rip off from WAR's native DA trait. Yet are opposing the fact that RDM should be on the same level elsewhere. Such as getting cure V (or my preferred method of adjusting caps on C1-C4). Allowing all our buffs to be accessioned. Other jobs are pulling ahead of is in all departments, some are moving in leaps and bounds.


Our Temper, isn't a double Attack trait, it's a spell. It has to be maintained, where as DA is passive.

I'm not saying we shouldn't be good healers, I'm saying it should probably come with that same catch Temper does. The spell Cure V is a highly potent, no consequence healing bomb. The spell itself is broken. And while that's excusable on WHM I don't think it would on RDM or SCH.

And while I liked your idea about adjusting cures better on Healing Magic, I don't beleive it would help us in the end due to our low healing skill.
That, and I don't believe nerfing sub curing is the answer.

Yes, we need to be better healers than Melee/RDM or BLM/RDM, but lets do that by making ourselves better, not nerfing others.

And if SE has a more unique solution than Cure V, I say let them do it first.

Quote:
I promise you if SE does not fix RDM enhancing, enfeebling and healing before the next cap increase, RDM will not be asked for anything with BRD SMN COR offering everything a RDM can, and then some. It doesn't need new fluff, it needs its mechanics to be fixed. The limits imposed on us because of Soloing, and bad mob design by SE (Colibri for the most part) have vastly limited us, and until the mechanics are fixed you can apply all the bandaids you want, and the problem will not go away.


My call is that we need at least 2 out of the 3, but I would like to see all 3, with more flexibility tied to our main job than just a subjob. (Yes, we're going to need to be able to swap our subjobs too, I just believe that a generalist like RDM should have more tied to its main job that makes it better, instead of always resorting to subjob benefits. We've been latching onto subjob updates to make RDM better for years now.)

Enhancing is in the air depending on how enfeebling and healing are regarded I believe that the priority among the three should be our Enfeebleing, followed by our Curing, then our Enhancing last. Enhancing itself is a hard knot to untwist, but it's no where near as critical as getting our enfeebles to work and be effective on TP moves, and getting or healing being functional enough to keep up with the next cap rise.

Edit, to clarify Enhancing's problem: Enhancing is such a tough problem because SE makes it one. You call for Acession, but if we're going to be able to AoE our buffs, why not just make them straight AoE? Give us a line of AoE buffs to give to players instead of sticking to /sch for it. As you said, other jobs already have this. As to what spells we could do that with, that's an entire topic on its own.


Our opinions on the raw issues are not all that dissimilar. We both want RDM to become stronger in those three departments. We just want RDM buffed in different ways.



Edited, Oct 15th 2011 9:33pm by Hyrist
#178 Oct 15 2011 at 7:50 PM Rating: Decent
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Our Temper, isn't a double Attack trait, it's a spell. It has to be maintained, where as DA is passive.


So? We have to maintain haste, refresh, dia. All things that come with passive traits (exception being haste to an extent but DW fills the same role, refresh has auto refresh, dia has ATK boost tiers.)

Temper should be an AoEable buff (via /SCH) as all our self buffs should be. However I do not think it should be castable on others directly. There is no reason for it to be limited to RDM alone. At all.

Quote:

Our opinions on the raw issues are not all that dissimilar. We both want RDM to become stronger in those three departments. We just want RDM buffed in different ways.


Well I don't think my idea is so much a buff, rather a fix on some things SE has messed up (some have been compounding for years). Personally I think RDM has all the tools to efficient in many roles. The biggest issue is they are locked out (buffing) or they are severely limited (enfeebles) or they are severely misrepresented (healing, specifically regarding the ever lasting issue of healing magic having no real effect at all on heals.)

Just to comment more on the healing cap change. What this would do is allow /WHM and /RDM with cure 4 to heal at current levels. Increasing the healing cap of the spells for jobs with C1-C4 will allow these jobs to achieve a higher cap through MND and Healing magic skill (the only skill that has no real effect on the spells it is associated with). This is a direct buff to RDM SCH WHM (and to an extent PLD). It allows RDM and SCH to have a native big heal, it also provides WHM with a 3rd big heal, at the cost of a large increase in enmity gained through its use.

Long story short, it impacts all healing main jobs in a positive way, and has no impact on jobs who sub them for the cures.

Any other solution to me is folly. C5 i not needed (it is just the easiest fix). We don't need a new cure or new healing gimmick.

It is not only RDM who is under the gun, and if people figure out how to use to /RDM jobs in cohesion (ie. BRD/RDM COR/RDM SMN/RDM BLU/RDM) all with a cure 4 (or better) even WHM might have a fight on its hands.

Giving all jobs access to refresh, convert, haste, cure IV is a huge change, it almost allows any job to fill in as a support healer, and if you have enough support healing, you don't need any main healing. Especially when the potential support healing bring the crazy as buffs they have, and 3/4 i listed all have a natural refresh to stack with /RDM refresh.

Again I hate to quit harping the point, but the issue is the mechanics in the game, not the tools RDM has. SE needs to fix how self buffs react with Accession (for all jobs with relevant buffs), they need to fix enfeebles so RDM can actually have a form of consistent mitigation, and they need to fix healing, healing is probably the most important on that list, followed by enhancing.
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#179 Oct 15 2011 at 11:56 PM Rating: Decent
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@Difference of opinion on Temper. Honestly, I don't see SE filling this request. You may not agree with the logic behind it, and that's fine. But I seriously doubt SE will be changing their viewpoint. And there's no point only going halfway in making it an AoE. It just marries RDM to /SCH by making the it less versatile than it should be if it's to be a Party buff. It's a half fix. If we're going to be a party buffer, make it more mechanically feasible.

Quote:
Giving all jobs access to refresh, convert, haste, cure IV is a huge change, it almost allows any job to fill in as a support healer, and if you have enough support healing, you don't need any main healing. Especially when the potential support healing bring the crazy as buffs they have, and 3/4 i listed all have a natural refresh to stack with /RDM refresh.


I feel as if you're overestimating the impact of this, but I understand the fear. Even so, fixing the mechanics does nothing for our future game, and we need to keep that in mind as well.

We need to have more added to our kit simply because there's going to be more challenges ahead. We're already seeing some of that in the way monsters no only are resistant to Debuffs Such as Slow and Paralyze, which needs to be addressed, but how they're flatly bypassing it as well. Even if Paralyze and Slow worked at full capacity, there's going to be NMs in which this kit does nothing and our enfeebles are back to that frustratingly limited scope.

Quote:

Again I hate to quit harping the point, but the issue is the mechanics in the game, not the tools RDM has. SE needs to fix how self buffs react with Accession (for all jobs with relevant buffs), they need to fix enfeebles so RDM can actually have a form of consistent mitigation, and they need to fix healing, healing is probably the most important on that list, followed by enhancing.


The number one priority to me is the gaping hole in our debuff line that does not passively address TP moves. That is a tool we severely lack. TP moves is the crux behind all hard NM fights and we have nothing native to mitigate that. And with SE creating more NMs that do less Auto Attacking and more "This is a TP move without a name." Even after our enfeebeling spells get fixed, and they should. We've still got our hands tied.

You want to solve this becoming a buff job. That's one approach they can do, though I think relying on Accession is an inadequate means for doing so. We're already limited to really Cycling about 2 buffs with it at base, so even if we did have a wider variety of buffs we could Accession it still severely hampers the full scope of what you could offer to the party.

I want to see a more monster-centric approach. We buff the whole alliance by weakening the monster. It's got better scaling in the long run, and if we're fixing enfeebles, we might as well take full advantage of the fix, and have more than just Dia making the monster hurt more. It's not a gimmick of it works.

It's possible that both solutions could be implemented. Either way RDM needs something to solidify its position at this point, and instead of arguing with one another on it, I would like to hear some feedback from SE, as to the ideas they have, so we can weigh in on those.
#180 Oct 16 2011 at 12:04 AM Rating: Decent
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Hyrist wrote:
You'll get no argument from me that a Generalist is not useful. The argument you will get from others is that a generalist is not useful enough in the presence of a team of specialists.
To avoid going into that topic again, I will only say that RDM is overdue for being dragged into the new century of hybrid design. I'll leave it at that.

Quote:
I'm not looking for absolute enfeebles when I try to suggest what SE does to fill their proclamation that we're getting new enfeebles. I'm looking for something that will work like slow and Addle and passively weaken the monsters attacks, the degree to which depending on the function of the spell itself.
I'd first suggest that the silly "Dia and Bio overwrite each other" thing be done away with. Then I'd adjust Bio's attack down to make it more noticeable (and to help it count as a mitigation tool). I'd buff Blind's Acc down effect and notably increase its land rate. If allowed to, I'd even make it a percentage based on enfeebling skill and with the same land rate as Dia.

Now, let's look at what are standard non-absolute debuffs:

01) Attack Down - Bio
02) Defense Down - Dia
03) Accuracy Down - Blind
04) Cast Time Increases - Addle
05) Action Time Increases - Slow
06) Critical Hit vulnerability -
07) Magic Attack Down -
08) Magic Defense Down -
09) Magic Accuracy Down - Addle
10) Resistance Down - Enspell II's
11) Movement Speed Down - Gravity
12) Evasion Down - Gravity
13) Increase Damage Taken -
14) Attribute(s) Down -
15) Resource Gain Down OR Destruction of Resource -

I made the above based off what I've seen in FFXI as well as WoW, Lineage II, RO and CoH. Listing off the top of my head only the spells that are native to our job, RDM is technically at 8/15 using this list. Even then, 1 and 2 are exclusive from one another as of right now. 12 wouldn't really count given Gravity's short duration and long recast timer, and 10 is borderline laughable based on how Enspell II's interact with our melee model. So we're actually 5/15 going by the list. We could take a crack at trying to fill the list later, though.

That being said, I was getting at the fact that the Final Fantasy debuffs are mostly absolutes. There's very little in terms of hindrance and mitigation. This is not helped by the fact that for years most strategies have revolved around avoiding as much damage as possible.

Quote:
I promise you if SE does not fix RDM enhancing, enfeebling and healing before the next cap increase, RDM will not be asked for anything with BRD SMN COR offering everything a RDM can, and then some. It doesn't need new fluff, it needs its mechanics to be fixed.
Wait, is this the same RCD that was telling me RDM was fine close to two years ago when I was saying RDM was founded on faulty mechanics? Color me surprised. >.>

Edited, Oct 16th 2011 6:23pm by Ruisu

Edited, Oct 16th 2011 10:33pm by Ruisu

Edited, Oct 17th 2011 9:06am by Ruisu
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#181 Oct 16 2011 at 12:18 AM Rating: Decent
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Wait, is this the same RCD that was telling me RDM was fine close to two years ago when I was saying RDM was founded on faulty mechanics? Color me surprised. >.>


RDM was fine 2 years ago at the 75 cap, it was a capable melee, nuker, healer, support job, **** it was even a tank. Now it is none of the above.

Granted the foundation has been shaky for a long time, and that is why i said this.
Quote:
rather a fix on some things SE has messed up (some have been compounding for years)


Player base opinion (Healing vs Melee 2 years ago) is a minimal factor. All that matters is the soft numbers on each aspect. RDM was fine then, however the only way to make it fine now is to stop imposing limitations on it that do not need to be there.

(this includes EX WS on Sword AND Dagger, Healing, Enfeebles, Enhancement, and **** one could argue DoT's since the general premise of a DoT is a status affliction which can be tied to enfeeblement (/SCH helps in this area on the test server id think.)

but ya 2 years changes things especially over 20 levels, and with how SE has been limiting certain game aspects.
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#182 Oct 16 2011 at 9:28 AM Rating: Decent
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I have left rdm sitting in the dust for about a year now, only leveling it when bored.

I was going to just quit it, but after playing with Tunga on my thief and whm, I'm thinking Rdm is going to be the better choice to do Tunga for KI. Earth resist set + resist petrify stacking(not really counting on that)+ tunga low hp and rdm has marginally better ki proc than thf made the decision to lug rdm up to 95.

When done, I'll drop it again until some 1% situation where rdm will be the better choice.

My opinion is that I really didn't like to play rdm in pre-abyssea endgame, but its good to see it making a comeback in VW; hatred of buff cycles/pink mage + removing tanking + accessionless buffs + nothing new or special = the job I first fell in love with and hit 75 is like an old discarded toy; broken and withered away from age, mistreatment, and malcontent.

I applaud career Rdms and know that some smallish % of rdms make their job worthwhile and shine, but they are pretty few and far between and its just not me to make the crappy rdm job my main. You either love rdm and have fun playing it with friends regardless of SE, or you quit it. The job certainly isn't optimal or even uniquely special at this point in the game.

I also dislike these long-winded posts about what does or doesn't need to happen because SE usually does some ass-backward completely random thing that either does or does not work out and its pointless to stress it. Its like saying the pawn in chess should move like a rook; well, we don't make the rules. Just play the game let your pawn checkmate the king or sacrifice it for your queen.
#183 Oct 16 2011 at 12:58 PM Rating: Default
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Ruisu wrote:

09) Magic Accuracy Down - Addle

Fixed that for you.
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I think RDM's neurotic omniscience is sooooooo worth including in any alliance.
#184 Oct 16 2011 at 1:31 PM Rating: Good
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It's an incomplete list there, honestly. And if I wasn't under a migraine at this moment I'd probably rewrite the list.

Things like Magical Evasion Down (Death Blossom) enemy critical hit rate, enemy TP bonus (or TP penalty), Regeneration prevention (Disease) can also be included. Though, some of these are included in other jobs or should be the realm of other jobs (Stat negatives are done between BLM and DRK with a good number of them subbed.)

But yes, a full enfeeble list both defensively and offensively would be really appreciated on RDM. Fix the ones we have, but flush out some more so that even if the boss is immune to some of them, (Like those aligned to a particular element, like Ice or Fire) we still got a wide list of debuffs that ARE still effective.

Quote:
To avoid going into that topic again, I will only say that RDM is due to being dragged into the new century of hybrid design. I'll leave it at that.

Hybrid play kind of identifies me as a player: I've always worked to function magic and physical works. (And Yes, I'm leveling Blu on my spare time. Spell hunting is time consuming.) It's reflective in most if not all my gameplay from single-player to multiplayer. I love being a generalist. And it's not hero complex either. I rather hate the spotlight. I just like being helpful in all aspects, having a toolset wide enough to work in multiple fields. (I play a Soldier in Borderlands, all my FF characters that are flexible typically get turned into hybrids, etc.)

Perhaps it stems from the fact that I don't like being caught unprepared or in a situation where I absolutely have to shoulder the responsibility onto someone else. But whatever the case, I can never seem to be content playing a job that lacks tools to be flexible and self sufficient. Red Mage is ALL about being self-sufficient. It just needs to be to a degree that scales better for groups than it does for us. Debuffs do that, granted, so do buffs, but it has a much more limited scale. (Max 6 people compared to max 18 people.)
#185 Oct 16 2011 at 4:13 PM Rating: Good
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Hyrist wrote:
enemy critical hit rate
This is generally trivial. Unlike other games where you can gear to make yourself immune to crits, enemy crit is not something you can control or foresee (or even effectively measure, for that matter) in FFXI.
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enemy TP bonus (or TP penalty)
This falls under resource gain down.
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Regeneration prevention (Disease)
This is an absolute, which is why I kept it out.

cidbahamut wrote:
Ruisu wrote:

09) Magic Accuracy Down - Addle

Fixed that for you.
Noted and added. 5/15, then.

Edited, Oct 16th 2011 6:25pm by Ruisu
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#187 Oct 16 2011 at 4:25 PM Rating: Good
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Ruisu wrote:
This is generally trivial. Unlike other games where you can gear to make yourself immune to crits, enemy crit is not something you can control or foresee (or even effectively measure, for that matter) in FFXI.


Sure we can control it. We'd just have to give up one of the other "Other" category merits to get it. I'm pretty sure it's on a couple pieces of gear too. PLD gear, possibly.
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#188 Oct 16 2011 at 4:27 PM Rating: Good
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StylinOfGilgamesh wrote:
Sure we can control it. We'd just have to give up one of the other "Other" category merits to get it. I'm pretty sure it's on a couple pieces of gear too. PLD gear, possibly.
Well, crit immunity as I know it is a combination of Evasion, Parry and Block rates. When all three are raised up to a certain level, you effectively push critical hits off the melee table. I'm guessing you're talking about gear that says something along the lines of "lowers chance of critical hits on you"?
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#189 Oct 16 2011 at 7:03 PM Rating: Excellent
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Ruisu wrote:
Well, crit immunity as I know it is a combination of Evasion, Parry and Block rates. When all three are raised up to a certain level, you effectively push critical hits off the melee table. I'm guessing you're talking about gear that says something along the lines of "lowers chance of critical hits on you"?


That's what I assumed Hyrist was talking about, given the context. You have a point about boosting defensive skills but decreasing enemy critical hit rate is more universal.

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#190 Oct 17 2011 at 7:10 AM Rating: Good
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StylinOfGilgamesh wrote:
That's what I assumed Hyrist was talking about, given the context. You have a point about boosting defensive skills but decreasing enemy critical hit rate is more universal.
True, but I guess my own bias against potential inventory clutter creeps in. Admittedly, there's not much in the sense of tank gear in FFXI nowadays outside of PDT/MDT gear (which in other games is based off Defense or Armor ratings, leaving tank gear itemization open to boosting Parry/Eva/Block individually or through a blanket stat like WoW's old Defense stat).

Edited, Oct 17th 2011 9:10am by Ruisu
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#191 Oct 21 2011 at 10:33 AM Rating: Decent
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Hyrist wrote:
Saevell what's your current TP/WS build? (with the interest being more in the latter as I believe I've seen your TP build before)

Edited, Oct 13th 2011 12:04pm by Hyrist

Here's my WS set for CDC,

Main: 85 Almace Dex +10
Sub: Shamshir +3 +20 Attack +10 STR
Ranges: Aureole Magic Accuracy +8

Swapable Gear

Head: Theia's hairpin Dex +6 Acc +9
Neck: Rancor Collar Crit +5% Acc +6
Ear1: Hollow Earing Dex +2 Acc +3
Ear2: Brutal DA+5
Body: Assault Jerkin, Attack +18 Acc +3: Been debating to spend the gil on the Antares harness for more Dex
Hands: Warlocks' +1 Dex +6
Ring1: Thundersoul ring Dex +7
Ring2: Rajas Dex +5 Str +5
Back: Atheling mantle Attack +20 DA+3
Waist: Cuchulain's belt Dex +6 Attack +10
Legs: Tumbler trunks Dex +5 Attack +18
Feet: Lithe boots Dex +6

I have a ridiculous amount of accuracy on CDC due to DEX and ACC often being on the same pieces. What I'm having issues with is maintaining a high attack. Most commonly used food is buffalo steak but I keep pizza on hand.

Something very interesting is happening, I'm looking at 81+53 DEX for 134 total. For anything with 84 or less AGI we'd be capping dDex crit hit rate of +15% (5% being absolute base). For anything with 94 or less AGI then we'd still be hitting high and within the area of best improvement (1DEX = approx 1% crit). I speculate that this is why CDC does such amazing damage once you start unreal amounts of DEX, your starting to hit the highest dDEX bonus's and the most criticals.
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#192 Oct 21 2011 at 11:58 AM Rating: Default
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Quote:
Something very interesting is happening, I'm looking at 81+53 DEX for 134 total. For anything with 84 or less AGI we'd be capping dDex crit hit rate of +15% (5% being absolute base). For anything with 94 or less AGI then we'd still be hitting high and within the area of best improvement (1DEX = approx 1% crit). I speculate that this is why CDC does such amazing damage once you start unreal amounts of DEX, your starting to hit the highest dDEX bonus's and the most criticals.


What is there to speculate about? It's a 3-hit critical WS with a primary DEX mod, of course capping dDEX by way of stacking the primary mod is what's making it deal good damage.

Also, crit rate from dDEX caps at 20%, not 15%.
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rdmcandie wrote:
RDM can attain an almost static 50% reduction to recast time, SCH can over shoot this for a total of 60% reduction under Alacrity (provided you are wearing loafers and keeping dark weather on yourself)

rdmcandie wrote:
MACC is a joke, any job with access to mage gear can hit close the MACC cap on legion mobs, which is why my BRD/RDM can land slow/para/blind despite having only 150 skill (from /RDM.)
#193 Oct 21 2011 at 1:56 PM Rating: Good
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LyltiaofLakshmi wrote:
Quote:
Something very interesting is happening, I'm looking at 81+53 DEX for 134 total. For anything with 84 or less AGI we'd be capping dDex crit hit rate of +15% (5% being absolute base). For anything with 94 or less AGI then we'd still be hitting high and within the area of best improvement (1DEX = approx 1% crit). I speculate that this is why CDC does such amazing damage once you start unreal amounts of DEX, your starting to hit the highest dDEX bonus's and the most criticals.


What is there to speculate about? It's a 3-hit critical WS with a primary DEX mod, of course capping dDEX by way of stacking the primary mod is what's making it deal good damage.

Also, crit rate from dDEX caps at 20%, not 15%.


Ok I know your trying to be snide, but your failing hard.

The speculation is about whether +Atk more more +Dex would enhance over all damage, specifically what happens when dDex > 40 and how that changes the weight of Dex vs Atk. The rule of thumb is 3 attack = 1 DEX when determining what piece to use, this might change as dDex >40 happens, but Dex added over dDex=50 does absolutely nothing to your crit rate. This also applies once we get Gain-DEX which would be approx 25 Dex, that's a pretty big chunk and might have us reconsidering WS gear options.

And no dDex caps at +15%, you have 5% as base floor. A dDEX of -100 still gives you a 5% crit rate, a dDex of +50 gives you a 20% crit rate, thus dDex bonus is 0~15%.
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Lucinus wrote:
when you're hefting something that deadly, you don't miss - mobs get the **** out of the way instead...
#194 Oct 21 2011 at 2:02 PM Rating: Decent
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That's because the crit rate floor is 5%, not the dDEX aspect; there is a difference.
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rdmcandie wrote:
RDM can attain an almost static 50% reduction to recast time, SCH can over shoot this for a total of 60% reduction under Alacrity (provided you are wearing loafers and keeping dark weather on yourself)

rdmcandie wrote:
MACC is a joke, any job with access to mage gear can hit close the MACC cap on legion mobs, which is why my BRD/RDM can land slow/para/blind despite having only 150 skill (from /RDM.)
#195 Oct 21 2011 at 3:02 PM Rating: Decent
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LyltiaofLakshmi wrote:
That's because the crit rate floor is 5%, not the dDEX aspect; there is a difference.


Umm you just contradicted yourself.

I said that the floor was 5% and dDEX caps at +15%. Notice the plus sign in-front of the 15, it means addition. Then you had to try to be a smart **** and say dDex caps at 20%, which it doesn't as dDex is added. Its likes saying the fSTR cap for my Almace is 71 and not +14. If you had -100 dDex then your crit would be 5% (assuming no other additives), thus while dDex crit would be +0% your base crit, merits and gear would still stack and yield you a 10% (5/5 Crit Merits) minimum crit rate, 15% if you had the Tonbery necklace. With dDEX capped and my merits / gear my crit rate would be 30%, dDEX floored would be 15%. Thus dDex cap is +15%.

Crit rate is,
5% + fDex + Merits + Gear

fDex is dDex with a curve, buried deep in BG they actually mapped out the formula. First 20 does next to nothing, second 20 does up to 5%, last 10 is 1 DEX = 1%.

No such thing as "dDex aspect" or whatever you want to call it in an attempt to back out.

Really don't see how to explain it any other way, its basic math, basic as in the kind you learn in 1st grade, 3rd at the latest.

-=Edit=-

Actually if you REALLY want to split hairs then dDEX cap isn't 15 nor 20, its 50. dDex doesn't give you crit hit, it's only the difference between your Dex and the targets Agi, and like dSTR it's only a number used as an in put for the actual formula to determine the bonus. fDex would be having the cap of 15% and the floor of 0% while dDEX is between 0 and 50.

Edited, Oct 21st 2011 9:29pm by saevellakshmi

Edited, Oct 21st 2011 9:29pm by saevellakshmi
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lolgaxe wrote:
Nothing in this game is impossible if you set yourself to the task of actually doing it. Even dumb people can only hold you back for so long.


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#196 Oct 21 2011 at 4:18 PM Rating: Decent
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http://seaseaseaseasea.livejournal.com/2008/01/06/ read up, it is 20% from Dex only that is the cap you are arguing the same thing but one is using retarded math his 5% floor is based on dDex too. It is a 20% Cap to crit from dDex.
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#197 Oct 21 2011 at 10:40 PM Rating: Decent
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rdmcandie wrote:
http://seaseaseaseasea.livejournal.com/2008/01/06/ read up, it is 20% from Dex only that is the cap you are arguing the same thing but one is using retarded math his 5% floor is based on dDex too. It is a 20% Cap to crit from dDex.


Umm no, dDex cap is 50 period, fDex is +15.

Just because someone posts something on a LJ (seriously ... a LJ) doesn't mean its gospel.

And you do know I had that research since shortly after it was posted. It shows that scaling of fDEX from +5 ~ +15 and a crit hit rate of 5 ~ 24 (pre 5/5 crit merits).

Saying dDex cap is 20 is like saying fSTR cap is 71.... its functional but not exactly correct. This whole sidebar is because LL above wanted to get snide and show her ignorance.
Like I said, Crit hit Rate is

5 + fDex + Merits + Gear

Edited, Oct 22nd 2011 4:53am by saevellakshmi
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Nothing in this game is impossible if you set yourself to the task of actually doing it. Even dumb people can only hold you back for so long.


Lucinus wrote:
when you're hefting something that deadly, you don't miss - mobs get the **** out of the way instead...
#198 Oct 21 2011 at 11:42 PM Rating: Decent
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Quote:
This whole sidebar is because LL above wanted to get snide and show her ignorance.


I dunno man, you're the one hurling insults and calling names; I just made a statement, which is no less true after you spent multiple posts ranting over it than it was before.

All your nonsense about dDEX aside, DEX > all (besides raw CritRate+ of course) for CDC on RDM, all the time, every time; and the only way Gain-DEX will ever hold a candle to Gain-STR is if it's pushing you into that +40~50 range in your TP gear.. even then I'm skeptical.

I have to ask though, if you're so knowledgable about how dDEX works, why would you find it necessary to speculate that stacking DEX is responsible for great CDC numbers? Obvious **** is obvious, etc.
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rdmcandie wrote:
RDM can attain an almost static 50% reduction to recast time, SCH can over shoot this for a total of 60% reduction under Alacrity (provided you are wearing loafers and keeping dark weather on yourself)

rdmcandie wrote:
MACC is a joke, any job with access to mage gear can hit close the MACC cap on legion mobs, which is why my BRD/RDM can land slow/para/blind despite having only 150 skill (from /RDM.)
#199 Oct 22 2011 at 12:53 AM Rating: Good
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LyltiaofLakshmi wrote:
Quote:
This whole sidebar is because LL above wanted to get snide and show her ignorance.


I dunno man, you're the one hurling insults and calling names; I just made a statement, which is no less true after you spent multiple posts ranting over it than it was before.

All your nonsense about dDEX aside, DEX > all (besides raw CritRate+ of course) for CDC on RDM, all the time, every time; and the only way Gain-DEX will ever hold a candle to Gain-STR is if it's pushing you into that +40~50 range in your TP gear.. even then I'm skeptical.

I have to ask though, if you're so knowledgable about how dDEX works, why would you find it necessary to speculate that stacking DEX is responsible for great CDC numbers? Obvious sh*t is obvious, etc.


Because fDex isn't linear. First 20 dDex do absolutely nothing, second dDex do very little, its only the final 10 that you really get your money's worth.

You can't make blanket statements like DEX > All, Atheling Mantle beats out any DEX back piece currently available, that alone disproves your statement. It's a balancing act, if your pDiff is too low then jacking up WSC is less effective, jacking up WSC in and of itself is often not nearly as effective as jacking up pDiff on multi hit WS's.

I've been getting CDC numbers that are above what I should be getting, 2K CDC's on EM~T monsters outside abyssea as a RDM/NIN. My belief is the DA stacking combined with hitting the highest tier of dDex is whats responsible for this.

Also 70 dDex gives you no extra crit then 50 dDex, so while DEX is good for enhancing crits there is a limit that you'll reach very fast.

This is all relevant because monsters do not have ridiculous AGI. Need to find a good aiming point to hit dDex 50 without going too far over and wasting other potential stats.
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Lucinus wrote:
when you're hefting something that deadly, you don't miss - mobs get the **** out of the way instead...
#200 Oct 22 2011 at 10:18 PM Rating: Decent
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Yeah my statement was too blanket, you're right there; what I should have said is that DEX > all up to the dDEX cap, as maximizing your crit rate is by far the most important consideration. If you're fighting weak stuff sure, go for Attack, Double Attack, STR, etc. in the slots where its possible to drop DEX and maintain your dDEX.

Also, DEX over the +50 isn't totally worthless, as CDC is 60% DEX mod, and the accuracy doesn't hurt either; so if anything, it's better to overshoot on DEX than to undershoot given how much Crit% you lose from being only a couple points under the cap. All in all it's a pretty easy WS to gear for compared to Blade: Hi, where you have to juggle more stats to find that sweet spot.

Edited, Oct 23rd 2011 12:25am by LyltiaofLakshmi
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rdmcandie wrote:
RDM can attain an almost static 50% reduction to recast time, SCH can over shoot this for a total of 60% reduction under Alacrity (provided you are wearing loafers and keeping dark weather on yourself)

rdmcandie wrote:
MACC is a joke, any job with access to mage gear can hit close the MACC cap on legion mobs, which is why my BRD/RDM can land slow/para/blind despite having only 150 skill (from /RDM.)
#201 Oct 22 2011 at 10:45 PM Rating: Decent
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LyltiaofLakshmi wrote:
Yeah my statement was too blanket, you're right there; what I should have said is that DEX > all up to the dDEX cap, as maximizing your crit rate is by far the most important consideration. If you're fighting weak stuff sure, go for Attack, Double Attack, STR, etc. in the slots where its possible to drop DEX and maintain your dDEX.

Also, DEX over the +50 isn't totally worthless, as CDC is 60% DEX mod, and the accuracy doesn't hurt either; so if anything, it's better to overshoot on DEX than to undershoot given how much Crit% you lose from being only a couple points under the cap. All in all it's a pretty easy WS to gear for compared to Blade: Hi, where you have to juggle more stats to find that sweet spot.

Edited, Oct 23rd 2011 12:25am by LyltiaofLakshmi


I didn't say totally worthless, but it's value is diminished. It's still a 60% WSC and +acc.

Honestly though the acc is less valuable, your TP set is what will dictate your food selection and our WS sets already have more acc then our TP sets. I'm looking for more attack currently.
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lolgaxe wrote:
Nothing in this game is impossible if you set yourself to the task of actually doing it. Even dumb people can only hold you back for so long.


Lucinus wrote:
when you're hefting something that deadly, you don't miss - mobs get the **** out of the way instead...
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