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#52 Aug 31 2011 at 9:22 AM Rating: Decent
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This is why nobody likes you Alma; playing semantics is not debating or even arguing, and that's all you ever do. Poorly, I might add.
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rdmcandie wrote:
RDM can attain an almost static 50% reduction to recast time, SCH can over shoot this for a total of 60% reduction under Alacrity (provided you are wearing loafers and keeping dark weather on yourself)

rdmcandie wrote:
MACC is a joke, any job with access to mage gear can hit close the MACC cap on legion mobs, which is why my BRD/RDM can land slow/para/blind despite having only 150 skill (from /RDM.)
#53 Aug 31 2011 at 10:40 AM Rating: Decent
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Just jumping in here.

BLM: Stuns and Sleepga for CC.

WHM: Curaga's, Stona, and Divine Seal

SCH: Nukes, Endurance Curing, Status Cures, Buff Cycles, AoE Buffs, Spot AoE Sleepga II for specific situations.


sh*t's situational, but I prefer /SCH. All this crazy talk about 'OMG YOU'VE GOT TO SWITCH ARTS AND ADDENDUMS IT"S SO HARD" Is kinda stupid. I've a basic macro set that mirrors between light and dark adendums and 2 single "Light/Dark" Swaps for when I need to change gears, which ISN'T frequently.

In situations in which I would need Sleepga, typically there's already a BLM and/Or BRD or other /blms. To be flatly honest, with Breakga now in the works, Crowd control beyond the lower number of targets has pretty steadily slipped form our hands role wise. And stun is a gimick, the only reason you should be bringing yourself /blm for stun is is you're intending to CSS sometime in the event.

The situations in which you'd logically use /WHM is also narrowing. Again, Stona is the main concern here. There's little else provided unless you want to CS Curaga 2 when, honestly, Stoneskinga is more frequent, conserves more MP and PREVENTS the damage rather than tries to recover it. Then there's the AoE of a Regen II that last longer than normal with AF3+2 and between the two you don't end up missing those Curagas.

You guys can parade around what is 'best' all you like. I'm rather finished caring what the crowd thinks at this point. Talking with some of you is enough to take the enjoyment out of the game for me and I honestly don't need that.

But whatever you're going to find as your most preferred subjob is entirely subjective to what you do in the game. I like /SCH because it gives me a varied toolset, and is the biggest bonus to my nuking game I can have without sacrificing the whole of my status removals. But I'm not afraid to switch off if I need to.


But I'm getting really tired of the people preaching the way other people 'should' play the game as if it was doctrine. I think either the level of excessive, obsessive arguing on both sides has either reached an entirely new low, or I'm just supersaturated and sick of people who think insults make their opinions stronger or more correct.
#54 Aug 31 2011 at 11:04 AM Rating: Default
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Hyrist wrote:
And stun is a gimick

Are we even playing the same game?
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IcookPizza wrote:

I think RDM's neurotic omniscience is sooooooo worth including in any alliance.
#55 Aug 31 2011 at 11:23 AM Rating: Default
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Cid thereis no point arguing, especially with people that list nukes as an added advantage of /SCH.
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#56 Aug 31 2011 at 11:45 AM Rating: Default
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Well to be fair if you're I'm heading out to just chain-nuke things on RDM, like say for doing some magian trials, then /SCH is preferred simply for the MP endurance it offers over other subs. It makes it easier to make it to the next Convert while dropping tier IV nukes along the way without slowing down in low refresh situations.

That aside, you're probably right. Anyone who sees stunning party wrecking TP moves as a gimmick, well... I can't think of anything nice to say.
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IcookPizza wrote:

I think RDM's neurotic omniscience is sooooooo worth including in any alliance.
#57 Aug 31 2011 at 12:24 PM Rating: Good
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cidbahamut wrote:
Hyrist wrote:
And stun is a gimick

Are we even playing the same game?


Cid, how many stun abilities are in this game now?

How many jobs have the capacity to stun? or Sleep, for that matter?

Are you going to seriously @#%^ing tell me that you, specifically must ABSOLUTELY be the person to alter your subjob so you can stun a monster outside of CSS when so many other jobs have it available?

If you answer yes, then you are delusional. Stun is a gimick on RDM. You use it for CSS or to be 'one more person' on a stun rotation. For as much as you claim it would save people's ass. It would do so regardless of who casts it, and there are other benefits for the party RDM could be doing in any situation where it's not imperative that RDM be the one to have stun.

If you're in a situation in which you as a RDM frequently need to cast stun then you were brought specifically for that role or your other mages are simply not on the ball. Same goes for Sleepga. There's simply no point in having RDM be the point man for sleep suppression unless you are not confident in your mage allies to do so. Between Bard, Black Mage, Blue Mage, and at the most desperate times Scholar there is no reason why a RDM should be expected to carry these spells outside of specific situations like low-manning or in the absence of most if not all of the aforementioned jobs.


Again, CSS and Stun Rotation being niche exceptions for stun.


It's seriously not worth talking to you Cid. You either take words or arguments completely out of context and supplant them into situations where you can strawman or red herring or you dive into insults.
#58 Aug 31 2011 at 12:31 PM Rating: Default
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Getting pretty defensive there aren't you?

You said stun was a gimmick. That's bullsh*t. Stun saves lives. The end.

Carry on with your tirade now.
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IcookPizza wrote:

I think RDM's neurotic omniscience is sooooooo worth including in any alliance.
#59 Aug 31 2011 at 12:32 PM Rating: Default
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All this crazy talk about 'OMG YOU'VE GOT TO SWITCH ARTS AND ADDENDUMS IT"S SO HARD" Is kinda stupid.


Not a single person has said this, you haven't been reading.

Quote:
You guys can parade around what is 'best' all you like. I'm rather finished caring what the crowd thinks at this point. Talking with some of you is enough to take the enjoyment out of the game for me and I honestly don't need that.


Quote:
But I'm getting really tired of the people preaching the way other people 'should' play the game as if it was doctrine. I think either the level of excessive, obsessive arguing on both sides has either reached an entirely new low, or I'm just supersaturated and sick of people who think insults make their opinions stronger or more correct.


What do you think this is, exactly? Looks kinda preachy to me... and calling someone's argument delusional and then railing against people who insult others makes it hypocritical, too!

This isn't how you take the high road Hyrist, although I'm sure you think so. The high road is over there, not reading and not posting this sort of drivel.

And yeah, @#%^ing lol @ Stun being a gimmick.

Edited, Aug 31st 2011 3:10pm by LyltiaofLakshmi
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rdmcandie wrote:
RDM can attain an almost static 50% reduction to recast time, SCH can over shoot this for a total of 60% reduction under Alacrity (provided you are wearing loafers and keeping dark weather on yourself)

rdmcandie wrote:
MACC is a joke, any job with access to mage gear can hit close the MACC cap on legion mobs, which is why my BRD/RDM can land slow/para/blind despite having only 150 skill (from /RDM.)
#60 Aug 31 2011 at 12:35 PM Rating: Decent
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Stun > then AoE phalanx and Stoneskin, therefor /BLM > /SCH in most situations, if not all. SCH is a gimmick sub with the biggest benefits to it being unusable on RDM.
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#61 Aug 31 2011 at 12:38 PM Rating: Default
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Between Bard, Black Mage, Blue Mage, and at the most desperate times Scholar there is no reason why a RDM should be expected to carry these spells outside of specific situations like low-manning or in the absence of most if not all of the aforementioned jobs.


I hate to break it to you, but low-manning is the new norm; if you're the guy who brings 6+ people to anything outside Voidwatch, you are in the distinct minority, so don't throw these old, tired circa 2009 arguments out there and expect them to stick, because we know better.
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rdmcandie wrote:
RDM can attain an almost static 50% reduction to recast time, SCH can over shoot this for a total of 60% reduction under Alacrity (provided you are wearing loafers and keeping dark weather on yourself)

rdmcandie wrote:
MACC is a joke, any job with access to mage gear can hit close the MACC cap on legion mobs, which is why my BRD/RDM can land slow/para/blind despite having only 150 skill (from /RDM.)
#62 Aug 31 2011 at 1:18 PM Rating: Good
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rdmcandie wrote:
Stun > then AoE phalanx and Stoneskin, therefor /BLM > /SCH in most situations, if not all. SCH is a gimmick sub with the biggest benefits to it being unusable on RDM.

That's awful, awful logic.
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#63rdmcandie, Posted: Aug 31 2011 at 9:51 PM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) But is correct. SCH lost its usefulness to RDM when we got a decent set of gear to nuke in. Hell /SMN is better for nuking because of the INT boost alone.
#64 Aug 31 2011 at 11:31 PM Rating: Good
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But is correct. SCH lost its usefulness to RDM when we got a decent set of gear to nuke in. Hell /SMN is better for nuking because of the INT boost alone.


For heavy nuking scenarios, no, /SCH is still the best when /NIN isn't necessary; you get Dark Arts, Parsimony, and Aspir to stretch your MP further, and you get Drain and Storms to help with damage.. /SMN doesn't come close.
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rdmcandie wrote:
RDM can attain an almost static 50% reduction to recast time, SCH can over shoot this for a total of 60% reduction under Alacrity (provided you are wearing loafers and keeping dark weather on yourself)

rdmcandie wrote:
MACC is a joke, any job with access to mage gear can hit close the MACC cap on legion mobs, which is why my BRD/RDM can land slow/para/blind despite having only 150 skill (from /RDM.)
#65 Aug 31 2011 at 11:37 PM Rating: Default
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eh been a while since I nuke solo'd, ill take your word for it, been using my BLM for those much much easier and faster.
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#66 Sep 01 2011 at 1:20 AM Rating: Excellent
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The speed bump from Dark Arts alone beats out /SMN (and /BLM) for nuking, nevermind Alacrity or even Parsimony. I'm not saying Stun is a gimmick, it's quite handy all things considered, but it's just not needed in a lot of things. It doesn't help that without a stun rotation, odds are you're in the middle of some other cast when it would be useful to use, heavily reducing the effectiveness of picking a sub solely to have Stun "just in case". /SCH gives phenomenal nuking boosts while being 90% of /WHM. And it still replicates several BLM tools, with a minor hit for on relying on JAs. Unless you plan to poke things with a really sharp stick or need to set up for Stun specifically (i.e. Apademak's leveling), /SCH is a pretty damn useful default sub, lots of nifty tools.
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#67 Sep 01 2011 at 2:24 AM Rating: Default
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LyltiaofLakshmi wrote:
This is why nobody likes you Alma; playing semantics is not debating or even arguing, and that's all you ever do. Poorly, I might add.


What semantics?

rdmcandie wrote:
eh been a while since I nuke solo'd, ill take your word for it, been using my BLM for those much much easier and faster.


.........
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Almalieque wrote:

I'm biased against statistics
#68 Sep 03 2011 at 11:47 AM Rating: Good
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I hate to break it to you, but low-manning is the new norm; if you're the guy who brings 6+ people to anything outside Voidwatch, you are in the distinct minority.


Same 2009 logic still applies: You don't bring overly much of what you need.

If your low man tank is a dancer with multiple stuns and you're overloaded on cures, Stun isn't a factor, you're just blowing cooldowns overlaping and building resistance quicker.

You both are also missing the essential reason why I call Stun a Gimick on RDM. Sokay, I didn't explain it correctly.

It's a "Oh oh, me too! I can sub for stun!" That's the gimick. This mentality of having it just to get into groups. You don't get /blm for stun alone, you get it for the same reasons as you subbed BLM in 2009. The only thing that's changed is that you don't have to walk back out to swap back to /drk for stun anymore when people want you to CSS.

But in this regard, so many other jobs do it better now, and /sch offers more to the party than stun alone does. (Read: The problem isn't that /sch is a bad subjob. See below.)

I'm not talking just our nuking game either, though that still keeps /sch ahead in that regard.

I'm talking the full of the utility.

You talk about AoE Phalanx and Stoneskin not being as good as a stun. I Agree. But in the case where you have stunners (and Stun is so readily available that you should have at least one without loosing a RDM's subjob with it. Bare minimum BLU is there for procs.) That AoE Stoneskin is an extra line of defense.

But that's not the end of it either.

You're completely overlooking Aspir, Drain (At auto-beyond capped skill rating), emergency Sleepgas (Granted, takes some getting used to using the stratagems quickly. Train in Campaign though, you'll get the hang of it.) and most importantly, status cures.

You sacrifice a lot in utility just for Stun and Sleepga. Sure, Stun saves lives, but so do a lot of other methods, and there are a lot of other jobs that can use stun as well.


So we get to the reason why it's such a 'gimick'.

It's a stopgap. We have no debuff to deal with TP moves so we default to a subjob that has one? I view that as a flaw in RDM's design, considering the trend. Either give us Stun natively or some other ability that takes the edge off of TP attacks. I've been pushing that suggestion for quite a while now.

I'm not saying stun is not useful. But the truth of the matter is, we're using it as a crutch. It's a gimick to pull attention away from the problem RDM currently is having with debuffing due to SE's current love of making everything a TP move. And we use it as a way to get into groups.

The preference for it, is a symptom of a greater underlining problem for RDM. And when that problem gets addressed, it'll fall by the wayside just like it was before.

Make more sense now? It's not as if I don't use it when it's needed. But I see the trend for what it is.

Edited, Sep 3rd 2011 1:49pm by Hyrist
#69 Sep 03 2011 at 3:48 PM Rating: Default
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Correct me if I'm wrong, but can't Red Mage can get Stun's recast timer lower than any other job?
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IcookPizza wrote:

I think RDM's neurotic omniscience is sooooooo worth including in any alliance.
#70 Sep 03 2011 at 4:03 PM Rating: Decent
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What you call a gimmick, I call the Support Job system working as intended. /shrug
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rdmcandie wrote:
RDM can attain an almost static 50% reduction to recast time, SCH can over shoot this for a total of 60% reduction under Alacrity (provided you are wearing loafers and keeping dark weather on yourself)

rdmcandie wrote:
MACC is a joke, any job with access to mage gear can hit close the MACC cap on legion mobs, which is why my BRD/RDM can land slow/para/blind despite having only 150 skill (from /RDM.)
#71 Sep 03 2011 at 4:55 PM Rating: Decent
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cidbahamut wrote:
Correct me if I'm wrong, but can't Red Mage can get Stun's recast timer lower than any other job?


RDM is as far as I know the only job that can natively (with gear) drop the recast to half. All you need is like 10% has on top of 50% fast cast (hat/coat/traits) and haste (15%) (technically more since it is fastcast*haste and not addative.)

LyltiaofLakshmi wrote:
What you call a gimmick, I call the Support Job system working as intended. /shrug


and one of the best damage mitigation spells in the game.
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