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#27 Aug 29 2011 at 2:08 PM Rating: Decent
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Situational. For any mob that requires a WHM, you will not be able to duo-box AND do crowd control at the same time.


I do this every day.

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Again, situtational. cure+stoneskin is the shiznit, definitely, but being able to AoE pro V, Shell V, phalanx, cure IV and/or Stoneskin before, or during a fight is definitely worth the strategem.


For all your railing against laziness, presenting Pro/Shell as things that make strategems worthwhile to WHM is curious. WHM/SCH doesn't get Phalanx. Afflatus Stoneskin > Accession Stoneskin. Phalanx isn't worth the time to cast unless you're Whisker burning / Cleaving. In other words, Accession is largely useless for WHM in today's game, making /SCH's only real benefit MP efficiency.

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It's called a macro. It's lazy because you're willing to forfeit other pros for being /sch under the argument of having to "hit extra buttons" on a spell that you will rarely have to ever use.


Laziness has nothing to do with it; changing Addenda via macros with /wait commands takes 3 seconds minimum, and given that /SCH addenda spells are the kind that tend to be time-sensitive (-nas, Dispel, Sleep)... /SCH becomes a much less attractive subjob when switching between addenda is necessary, just as SCH main becomes much less attractive as a main job in the same situations.

When 2boxing, as I do and I know Fynlar does, these distinctions only become more pronounced. It's the same reason why Refresh is so very rarely worth casting when /RDM; 110 net MP over 2.5 minutes (when your gear is restoring 350MP over the same window) just isn't that great, and there's just usually better things to be doing with your time, like casting SS/Blink, running ahead and pulling the next mob, etc.

It really just boils down to the fact that WHM barely needs MP conversation from their subjob at all anymore; and if they do, Convert more than covers it, making Refresh a waste of time.

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Well news flash, if the bonus of LA is negligible, then also the traverse effect of DA. This means a few extra spells in DA wont be a big deal.


Actually no, as the penalties for casting out of Arts are double that of the benefits of casting in Arts. You don't do much research, do you?

Edited, Aug 29th 2011 4:15pm by LyltiaofLakshmi
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RDM can attain an almost static 50% reduction to recast time, SCH can over shoot this for a total of 60% reduction under Alacrity (provided you are wearing loafers and keeping dark weather on yourself)

rdmcandie wrote:
MACC is a joke, any job with access to mage gear can hit close the MACC cap on legion mobs, which is why my BRD/RDM can land slow/para/blind despite having only 150 skill (from /RDM.)
#28 Aug 29 2011 at 4:09 PM Rating: Decent
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Nothing worth saying that Lyl didn't already. How am I gonna curb my boredom between classes, now?
#29 Aug 30 2011 at 12:29 AM Rating: Good
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I'm talking about the overall best sub for ALL mages. My argument is that /SCH is overall generally the best sub for any given mage at any given time. This does not mean it is the best 100% of the time, but if you had to choose just ONE sub to level, it should be SCH.


But that is not true at all

WHM/RDM can cure longer in the majority of situations (noted in the link I posted above, that you probably didn't click.) That makes RDM the best sub overall for WHM. Not SCH.

Probably the biggest reason to /SCH doesn't even work with RDM, and since skill levels are meaningless in the majority of situations, the -MP cost is trivial, the fast cast doesn't even benefit RDM.

The only reason a RDM would want to /SCH now is for AoE Stoneskin and maybe Phalanx or enspells.

BLM is default, since RDM sucks at healing for the most part anyway (although it can heal +1 seals nm's and some +2 nm's with relative ease with an evade tank). It offers more in a group situation then WHM, and in a low man situation, stuns can save wipes.

BLM/SCH - gets nothing, at all. /WHM here for low man group play (until 96 when /RDM gives haste), /RDM for solo, and large group events.

/SCH is pretty much the worst mage sub for these mage jobs most of the time, it has some neat tricks, but WHM clearly is better with /RDM (click the link) For RDM /BLM and /WHM are about even and SCH can't match what they offer (Stona, Bar spells/ Stun). For BLM it will be RDM but is currently WHM for its ability to main heal a duo with an evade tank.

Stop posting your personal beliefs as fact, the ability's of all the jobs when subbed do not support your opinion.


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#30 Aug 30 2011 at 1:44 AM Rating: Good
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The only reason a RDM would want to /SCH now is for AoE Stoneskin and maybe Phalanx or enspells.
For a /SCH-relevant scenario... Stoneskinga+Phalanxga is solid. I like how either spell can circumstantially take more strategem priority than the other from fight to fight; no idea why that slightly tickles me... it's f*cking two spells for pete's sake.

Anyway, Early Bird Catches the Wyrm immediately strikes me as a /SCH fight. The art-juggling in that fight is straightforward yet flexible and messy; effective yet fun.

RDM/sch can help tank the air part pretty well.

Mainly hanging around in light arts for Phalanxga/Stoneskinga/Blink/Cure bomb/helping regen... and then arbitrarily switching to dark arts to dish nukes... maybe a little bio/poison action... who knows? It's as if RDM/sch's role in that fight is to be as disorganized and MP-aggressive as possible. Love it!

But yea, for most of Vanadiel nowadays, /SCH isn't optimal.
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#31 Aug 30 2011 at 4:05 AM Rating: Default
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Fynlar wrote:
No, it's not equivalent.


Oh, since you put it that way.. Smiley: oyvey

They are the same.


Fynlar wrote:
Most of the enemies do not deal 3-4k damage with a single hit. It's done with a combo, such as a double attack + crit -> immediate TP move. If I'm not casting something stupid like Refresh, I can often squeeze in a cure in time to prevent a death. Perhaps that concept is unfamiliar to you because you cast too much fluff?


It doesn't matter if it's one move or a combo. If you're able to duobox, crowd control and prevent your other character from dying from a 3-4k damage hit/combo, then you can cast refresh. There really isn't any way around it. If you have enough time to cast sleep on a mob that is there, then you have time to cast refresh when you don't need to sleep a mob. It takes more time and effort to sleep a mob then it does refreshing yourself.

Fynlar wrote:

You keep saying these kinds of things, but that doesn't make them inherently correct.


You're right, it's correct because it's correct. I'm just stating the truth.

Fynlar wrote:

The few times MP would be a problem, having Convert makes it not a problem.

What is so hard to understand about this?


Think about it......

You are saying that MP is hardly an issue. Then you say that convert is the BEST MP tool... If MP is hardly an issue and Convert is soooo great, then chances are, other MP alternatives would suffice. Else, Convert isn't as great as you claim or MP is a greater issue than what you're making it out to appear.

Fynlar wrote:
Ok then?

Even if I never use Convert at all, I still find /RDM generally more useful due to having Sleeps/Dispels that aren't locked behind JAs.


Which would only matter if you actually had to sleep/dispel often.

Fynlar wrote:

When did I ever say that it was?


You said all of /sch is about MP conservation, so how are all of those traits/abilities about MP conservation.
#32 Aug 30 2011 at 4:16 AM Rating: Default
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Lyltia wrote:
I do this every day.



If you do, then I assure you that cure V/VI isn't necessary, which was the point of the comment.

Lyltia wrote:
For all your railing against laziness, presenting Pro/Shell as things that make strategems worthwhile to WHM is curious. WHM/SCH doesn't get Phalanx. Afflatus Stoneskin > Accession Stoneskin. Phalanx isn't worth the time to cast unless you're Whisker burning / Cleaving. In other words, Accession is largely useless for WHM in today's game, making /SCH's only real benefit MP efficiency.


I stated several times that I'm referencing to over all sub and that in his scenario, /sch is probably not idea.

Lyltia wrote:
When 2boxing, as I do and I know Fynlar does, these distinctions only become more pronounced. It's the same reason why Refresh is so very rarely worth casting when /RDM; 110 net MP over 2.5 minutes (when your gear is restoring 350MP over the same window) just isn't that great, and there's just usually better things to be doing with your time, like casting SS/Blink, running ahead and pulling the next mob, etc.


Which means there isn't a need to ride convert. If you are netting so much MP that you don't even need refresh, then you don't need to use convert every 10 minutes.

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It really just boils down to the fact that WHM barely needs MP conversation from their subjob at all anymore; and if they do, Convert more than covers it,making Refresh a waste of time not necessary


My point exactly.
Lyltia wrote:
Actually no, as the penalties for casting out of Arts are double that of the benefits of casting in Arts. You don't do much research, do you?


Which means the benefits are more than what you're leading on if double it makes a really big difference. Else, it would be just a speed bump.
#33 Aug 30 2011 at 4:23 AM Rating: Default
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rdmcandie wrote:
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I'm talking about the overall best sub for ALL mages. My argument is that /SCH is overall generally the best sub for any given mage at any given time. This does not mean it is the best 100% of the time, but if you had to choose just ONE sub to level, it should be SCH.


But that is not true at all

WHM/RDM can cure longer in the majority of situations (noted in the link I posted above, that you probably didn't click.) That makes RDM the best sub overall for WHM. Not SCH.

Probably the biggest reason to /SCH doesn't even work with RDM, and since skill levels are meaningless in the majority of situations, the -MP cost is trivial, the fast cast doesn't even benefit RDM.

The only reason a RDM would want to /SCH now is for AoE Stoneskin and maybe Phalanx or enspells.

BLM is default, since RDM sucks at healing for the most part anyway (although it can heal +1 seals nm's and some +2 nm's with relative ease with an evade tank). It offers more in a group situation then WHM, and in a low man situation, stuns can save wipes.

BLM/SCH - gets nothing, at all. /WHM here for low man group play (until 96 when /RDM gives haste), /RDM for solo, and large group events.

/SCH is pretty much the worst mage sub for these mage jobs most of the time, it has some neat tricks, but WHM clearly is better with /RDM (click the link) For RDM /BLM and /WHM are about even and SCH can't match what they offer (Stona, Bar spells/ Stun). For BLM it will be RDM but is currently WHM for its ability to main heal a duo with an evade tank.

Stop posting your personal beliefs as fact, the ability's of all the jobs when subbed do not support your opinion.




I was going to respond to each of your comments, but I'll just say that you're a tool.

You all can't say that MP isn't an issue then turn around and want /rdm for convert. That's stupid. /SCH offers way more crap for any mage job than any other sub can ESPECIALLY for RDM. If you don't suck as a RDM, then you should be switching between black and white magic and /sch is the only sub that allows you to do that.
#34 Aug 30 2011 at 5:28 AM Rating: Good
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It doesn't matter if it's one move or a combo. If you're able to duobox, crowd control and prevent your other character from dying from a 3-4k damage hit/combo, then you can cast refresh. There really isn't any way around it.


Well, no, you're not necessarily correct. But even if you were, the fact is that I don't bother doing it because I don't need to. Convert is enough and takes care of the job with far less effort.


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You're right, it's correct because it's correct. I'm just stating the truth.


There's a big difference between being the only person who thinks they are correct and actually being correct. You haven't quite made it to the exalted latter group yet.


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Think about it......

You are saying that MP is hardly an issue. Then you say that convert is the BEST MP tool... If MP is hardly an issue and Convert is soooo great, then chances are, other MP alternatives would suffice. Else, Convert isn't as great as you claim or MP is a greater issue than what you're making it out to appear.


Sure, other MP alternatives might suffice. But you haven't given me a good reason as to why I should bother to use them when Convert adequately fulfills whatever need I might have in Abyssea.


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Which would only matter if you actually had to sleep/dispel often.


And I do, because I like to be able to handle things on my own that would otherwise take a second mage to deal with. Kind of an important lowman philosophy, you know


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You said all of /sch is about MP conservation, so how are all of those traits/abilities about MP conservation.


The FC on Light Arts is a non-factor for WHM because /RDM also gets it naturally. It does not set it apart from /RDM.


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If you do, then I assure you that cure V/VI isn't necessary, which was the point of the comment.


Again, if your claims of RDM+BRD duo in Abyssea are accurate, it means that 1) you only know about joke mobs, or 2) you take an eternity DoT kiting tough mobs to death because you sure as **** aren't tanking them. Try that argument again once you've actually fought something worth a ****.


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Which means there isn't a need to ride convert. If you are netting so much MP that you don't even need refresh, then you don't need to use convert every 10 minutes.


WHMs typically would not just dump their MP in order to use a Convert. The original discussion on =10 was about RDM mains though, who have many more options for MP dumping that aren't total wastes, such as nukes. (WHM has Holy, but you can't exactly rapidfire effective Holy casts)


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Which means the benefits are more than what you're leading on if double it makes a really big difference. Else, it would be just a speed bump.


Again, not necessarily.


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You all can't say that MP isn't an issue then turn around and want /rdm for convert.


Again, yes we can.


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If you don't suck as a RDM, then you should be switching between black and white magic and /sch is the only sub that allows you to do that.


Yep, RDM definitely was not employing both white and black magic prior to the release of WotG. Those times I was churning out both Cures/Hastes as well as nukes/Sleeps/Binds must have all been in my head.


I think I've just about had it with this thread. Boredom I like, but my mind can only tolerate so much stupid before it starts overloading with more ferocity than any synergy furnace you've ever seen.
#35 Aug 30 2011 at 7:27 AM Rating: Decent
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I think I've just about had it with this thread. Boredom I like, but my mind can only tolerate so much stupid before it starts overloading with more ferocity than any synergy furnace you've ever seen.
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#36 Aug 30 2011 at 11:54 AM Rating: Decent
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More and more I'm convinced Alma hasn't actually played since 2009; never before have I seen someone argue so vehemently in favor of outdated information and tactics.
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rdmcandie wrote:
RDM can attain an almost static 50% reduction to recast time, SCH can over shoot this for a total of 60% reduction under Alacrity (provided you are wearing loafers and keeping dark weather on yourself)

rdmcandie wrote:
MACC is a joke, any job with access to mage gear can hit close the MACC cap on legion mobs, which is why my BRD/RDM can land slow/para/blind despite having only 150 skill (from /RDM.)
#37 Aug 30 2011 at 1:04 PM Rating: Excellent
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I know a thread has gone downhill when I'm actually siding with RCD on something.
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#38Almalieque, Posted: Aug 30 2011 at 2:04 PM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) Thanks, because at least RDD is a well known troll, you're actually trying to be serious. You're simply full of trash. I will admit, not intentionally, you're just combining various scenarios to make one argument. You simply can not be fighting anything worth that REQUIRES you to be casting cure V/VI to the point where casting refresh will cause death and still be able to do crowd control and dispel while duo boxing. Those are all different scenarios, but you jump to one freely to counter an attack on another scenario as if they are one.
#39Almalieque, Posted: Aug 30 2011 at 2:08 PM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) I guess I'm just ahead of the pack.... It's no different than when I argued the same stuff people are arguing now about RDM melee back in 2003+. Funny how that works.
#41 Aug 30 2011 at 3:27 PM Rating: Decent
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I was referring to status removals, protectra, drain, etc. Don't you remember when people had to make decisions between subbing whm or blm for status removals,protectra/shelra, curaga or asprir, drain and sleepga? Really? With /SCH, you get all of them.


Too bad you still can't fluidly switch between them due to all the good stuff requiring stratagems/Addenda.

I've always preferred to just figure out what the group needs and just /WHM if it needed status heals. By the way, back then there were -na spells that /SCH still would not give, and Stona also will not be subbable by /SCH even at 99. Stona might not have been as important back at 75 cap, but in Abyssea there is actually rather a lot of stuff that will petrify you.

If I would absolutely need Sleepga, even nowadays, I will use /BLM instead of /SCH. It's not worth having to fire DA+Addendum+Manifestation just to use a Sleepga, not to mention the fact that it kills your Sleep recast.

If I was taking a nuking role, I would then use /SCH for the Elemental skill boost.


Quote:
You simply can not be fighting anything worth that REQUIRES you to be casting cure V/VI to the point where casting refresh will cause death and still be able to do crowd control and dispel while duo boxing.


You keep jumping to that point; it must really bother you how other people can pull something off that you apparently cannot.

Anyway, when Cure 5/6 spamming, having to cast *anything* other than Cures is a risk. Even Sleeps/Dispels. However, there are such things as justified risks. Refresh just isn't one of them.

Really can't explain it any more simply than that.


Quote:
I guess I'm just ahead of the pack.... It's no different than when I argued the same stuff people are arguing now about RDM melee back in 2003+. Funny how that works.


Yep, you must be really sure of yourself. Must explain why you've had to chronicle all the times you've been agreed with in your signature, like it's an event worth marking on a calendar.
#42 Aug 30 2011 at 4:19 PM Rating: Default
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Besides, that mob must not be so uber if you have time to handle links and duo box at the same freakin time.


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You simply can not be fighting anything worth that REQUIRES you to be casting cure V/VI to the point where casting refresh will cause death and still be able to do crowd control and dispel while duo boxing.


You keep saying this, and all it does is point out to those of us that aren't horrible at the game that you have no idea what you're talking about.

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I have, because you're giving up other bonuses from SCH for additional MP that you admit that you don't need.


As I already pointed out, /SCH offers WHM nothing outside MP efficiency. Accession is useless. If you think otherwise, you clearly haven't played the job and are therefore talking out of your ***.

Alma, The only way you're ahead of your time is if the future involves the machines taking over and sticking us all in a computer simulation of 2009.

Edited, Aug 30th 2011 6:27pm by LyltiaofLakshmi
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rdmcandie wrote:
RDM can attain an almost static 50% reduction to recast time, SCH can over shoot this for a total of 60% reduction under Alacrity (provided you are wearing loafers and keeping dark weather on yourself)

rdmcandie wrote:
MACC is a joke, any job with access to mage gear can hit close the MACC cap on legion mobs, which is why my BRD/RDM can land slow/para/blind despite having only 150 skill (from /RDM.)
#43 Aug 30 2011 at 9:34 PM Rating: Excellent
Almalieque wrote:
Well, for some stupid reason, talking about your job's update in a job update thread is "out of topic" and I had already created this post while it was being locked, I'm "transferring" the topic to here. Take it or leave it.


The reason I had locked it and said that it was going off-topic was that it had been derailed from a general job adjustments topic to people arguing about the proper use of Convert and other things that had nothing to do with the original subject of that topic.

As for this topic, I want you all to avoid insults aimed at other people. If you have an issue with what's being discussed, then debate the information they're giving. There's no need for comments just telling people to shut up or things like that. If you don't like what the person has to say, then debate what they're saying, don't throw jabs at the person.
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#44Almalieque, Posted: Aug 30 2011 at 10:14 PM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) Crap, I thought you were done...
#45 Aug 30 2011 at 11:18 PM Rating: Decent
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That's a stupid excuse. If I had to choose between being able to hit a macro to cast a spell vs not having the spell, I think we know what the best choice is.


I prefer just having the crucial spell(s) I need without requiring any JAs to use it :D


Quote:
There you go again, now you're in a group. Before you were in a duo, before that you were duo boxing. You keep changing scenarios to counter points. There isn't a 100% overall better sub, everything is situational so finding a scenario to counter another scenario will not disprove a sub being an overall best mage sub in general.


Last I checked, 2 characters still make a party and/or group. It's an all-inclusive term.

And hey, what is that? "There isn't a 100% overall better sub"? Let's look at your OP again:
OP wrote:
Everyone knows that /SCH is the best overall mage sub, period.

My, we're not even off the first page yet and you're already contradicting yourself.


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Yea... you got me wrong. It's not that you CAN'T do something, but that you CAN do something and you're full of trash saying that you can't.

If you can spare 3 seconds every 30 seconds then you can spare 5 seconds ever 2.5 mins. You may claim that it isn't worth it, but you mathematically can not say that doing so will cause death. Especially given the seconds lost in transition for duobox.


It can though, and often has. I have had people die before due to casting Refresh, Stoneskinga, Auspice, and other fluff spells. You can pratter away all you want about how that can't happen, but it does, and you would know this if you've ever actually fought anything meaningful in Abyssea.

It's rather a big part of why I've stopped casting a lot of them during a serious fight. I've had to evaluate what's worth casting and what isn't, and Refresh did not make the cut.

Also, Sleep usually isn't used in the middle of serious fights (smart people will pull NMs to an area where you won't keep getting aggro every 10 seconds, you see) so you can stop making casting time comparisons between Sleep and Refresh.
#46 Aug 30 2011 at 11:47 PM Rating: Decent
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Fynlar 1 Alma 0!

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And hey, what is that? "There isn't a 100% overall better sub"? Let's look at your OP again:
Quote:
OP wrote:
Everyone knows that /SCH is the best overall mage sub, period.


My, we're not even off the first page yet and you're already contradicting yourself.



(granted i think I said this several posts ago, but gj Fynlar.)
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#47 Aug 31 2011 at 1:26 AM Rating: Default
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Lyltia wrote:
You keep saying this, and all it does is point out to those of us that aren't horrible at the game that you have no idea what you're talking abou


You're totally missing the point. It's not that you can't do something, it's that you're exaggerating a scenario as if you can't do something else, when in fact you can.


If you're casting cure V/VI out of pure necessity to the point where casting refresh would cause someone to die, then so would casting sleep on mobs every 30 seconds. The mob doesn't go into "easy mode" based on what spell you're casting.

Lyltia wrote:
As I already pointed out, /SCH offers WHM nothing outside MP efficiency. Accession is useless. If you think otherwise, you clearly haven't played the job and are therefore talking out of your ***.

Alma, The only way you're ahead of your time is if the future involves the machines taking over and sticking us all in a computer simulation of 2009.


My entire argument has been about /sch for every job, not just whm. Even if /sch were "useless" for whm, that still wouldn't disqualify it for being the best mage sub.

Simply saying something is useless doesn't make it so. The bottom line is that /sch gives you more tools for both black and white magic for any given job. The primary times when /sch wouldn't be idea is if you're needing a specific spell that /sch doesn't give you.
#48 Aug 31 2011 at 2:03 AM Rating: Default
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Fynlar wrote:
I prefer just having the crucial spell(s) I need without requiring any JAs to use it :D


You're talking in circles, we already established that you don't NEED them, but when you do, you sub BLM, not RDM.

Fynlar wrote:
Last I checked, 2 characters still make a party and/or group. It's an all-inclusive term.


No it's not. You said that you based your sub based on what the group needs. You said your duo partner is a Monk, so it will never change, therefore, you were referring to an entirely different scenario. Unless that is, you forget what a MNK is capable of every time you play and you have to research it to see if anything changed.

Fynlar wrote:
And hey, what is that? "There isn't a 100% overall better sub"? Let's look at your OP again:
.......

My, we're not even off the first page yet and you're already contradicting yourself.


Why you think that is contradictory is beyond me. Just shows your lack of understanding.

The first quote said 100%, which means in every scenario. I've stated numerous times on this page that there is no one job that is perfect in EVERY scenario. I even stated numerous times that /SCH isn't probably the best sub for WHM + MNK combo. That does not in any way keep it from being the best overall mage sub. Crap, like I said in my previous post, it can be the worst sub for WHM and still be considered the best overall mage sub..

You're grasping at straws now.... I guess that's a good sign of you actually quitting like you said you were.

Fynlar wrote:
It can though, and often has. I have had people die before due to casting Refresh, Stoneskinga, Auspice, and other fluff spells. You can pratter away all you want about how that can't happen, but it does, and you would know this if you've ever actually fought anything meaningful in Abyssea.



But you said that you don't allow people to die, so who's contracting themselves now? You're once again changing the scenario. If people ARE dying from those spells, then yes, any spell at that time can cause death. You claimed that no one dies. The mob doesn't know what spell you're casting. You are either able to cure or you aren't. If 5 seconds away from curing will cause someone to die, then it doesn't matter if that spell were cure, refresh, haste or protect.

So, you can pretend all you want that somehow the game favors one spell over another, but it doesn't work that way. 5 seconds is 5 seconds.

Fynlar wrote:
It's rather a big part of why I've stopped casting a lot of them during a serious fight. I've had to evaluate what's worth casting and what isn't, and Refresh did not make the cut.


Not saying that it should have, just points out that you don't have an MP issue, because if you did, you would cast it. Convert alone wont cut out an MP issue. It'll help you in the times when you might be out of MP, but that's not the same as an "MP issue". Constantly being low on MP isn't the same as being low on MP every once in a while.

Fynlar wrote:
Also, Sleep usually isn't used in the middle of serious fights (smart people will pull NMs to an area where you won't keep getting aggro every 10 seconds, you see) so you can stop making casting time comparisons between Sleep and Refresh.


That's EXACTLY MY POINT.. You don't need sleep, so stop acting like needing sleep in the middle of a SERIOUS fight is necessary. You don't need it, therefore, having to program DA in your macro to sleep a mob is negligible.

If for whatever reason you're having to cast sleep every 10-30 seconds on a mob, then you have time to cast refresh.


It's really that simple, pick one.
#50 Aug 31 2011 at 4:51 AM Rating: Decent
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Quote:
If you're casting cure V/VI out of pure necessity to the point where casting refresh would cause someone to die, then so would casting sleep on mobs every 30 seconds. The mob doesn't go into "easy mode" based on what spell you're casting.


Okay, so assume equal chance of tank death when casting Refresh or Sleep, fair enough. Now, look past that and determine what each spell does for you. Refresh, adds a small amount of MP over time that may help, but most likely won't; Sleep, if I don't cast it, everyone dies.

Also consider that if I run out of MP, i still have other tools available to me, such as meds/Benediction, but if I don't cast Sleep, everyone dies.

It's pretty obvious that Refresh is an unnecessary risk, and Sleep is absolutely vital to success.

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My entire argument has been about /sch for every job, not just whm. Even if /sch were "useless" for whm, that still wouldn't disqualify it for being the best mage sub.


Regardless of how much you've contradicted yourself in this very thread (you spent several posts arguing that /SCH is best overall for WHM, and now this), the fact remains that the 2 best buffs for use with Accession are either outdated (Refresh) or outclassed (Stoneskin). Everything else about /SCH is MP efficiency.

The point is, it's subjective depending on your playstyle (although at this point in the game, a playstyle that makes heavy use of /SCH for their mages is questionable indeed), and trying to argue something that is pretty much impossible to prove beyond a doubt to others (it being subjective and all) to the degree which you've pursued it here is folly.
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rdmcandie wrote:
RDM can attain an almost static 50% reduction to recast time, SCH can over shoot this for a total of 60% reduction under Alacrity (provided you are wearing loafers and keeping dark weather on yourself)

rdmcandie wrote:
MACC is a joke, any job with access to mage gear can hit close the MACC cap on legion mobs, which is why my BRD/RDM can land slow/para/blind despite having only 150 skill (from /RDM.)
#51 Aug 31 2011 at 5:19 AM Rating: Default
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Lyltia wrote:
Okay, so assume equal chance of tank death when casting Refresh or Sleep, fair enough. Now, look past that and determine what each spell does for you. Refresh, adds a small amount of MP over time that may help, but most likely won't; Sleep, if I don't cast it, everyone dies.

Also consider that if I run out of MP, i still have other tools available to me, such as meds/Benediction, but if I don't cast Sleep, everyone dies.

It's pretty obvious that Refresh is an unnecessary risk, and Sleep is absolutely vital to success.


Here's the thing. I never said it wasn't worth casting. I even said I switched back from /rdm back to /sch just because I didn't need refresh or convert. My point, which it appears you see now, you can't claim that one causes death and the other one doesn't.

The simple fact that you axed refresh from your spells to cast (which used to be the #1/#2 spell in the game along with haste) means MP is not an issue. Even as a RDM, I hardly get anyone asking me for refresh II. MP is just not a big issue like before, which means convert is nothing more than a preference MP tool, nothing to push /rdm over any other job. Especially when other jobs do just fine not being /rdm.

Lyltia wrote:
Regardless of how much you've contradicted yourself in this very thread (you spent several posts arguing that /SCH is best overall for WHM, and now this), the fact remains that the 2 best buffs for use with Accession are either outdated (Refresh) or outclassed (Stoneskin). Everything else about /SCH is MP efficiency.


Please point out the contradiction because you're clearly confused. First of all, this topic started off as main RDM subbing sch. Fynlar came into this bringing up WHM. I still believe /sch is the best mage sub for whm, but being so doesn't mean it's the best in EVERY scenario. Being in a duo is much different than being in a LS alliance event. And yes, my LS (which i rarely participate in due to my schedule) does LS events every week.

My counter to you was even if it WERE NOT(not that isn't) the best sub for WHM, it still doesn't disqualify it as being the best mage sub.

If /sch is about MP efficiency for any job, then you simply fail. There's too many tools that I listed several times already that's not directly "mp efficiency". Unless I'm reading ffxiclopedia wrong, you get a better recast time but worse casting time with /sch and vice versa with /rdm.

Lyltia wrote:
The point is, it's subjective depending on your playstyle (although at this point in the game, a playstyle that makes heavy use of /SCH for their mages is questionable indeed), and trying to argue something that is pretty much impossible to prove beyond a doubt to others (it being subjective and all) to the degree which you've pursued it here is folly.


Once again, I'm not arguing that one sub is perfect for every scenario. I'm arguing if you were to look at every scenario and tally up which sub would win in each scenario, then /sch would win overall.

It goes back to the race argument. One can argue a specific race is over the best given EVERY scenario, but depending on your playing style and what you do, just like everything else in this game, it's situational.

Edited, Aug 31st 2011 1:20pm by Almalieque
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