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Job Adjustments ManifestoFollow

#302 Aug 29 2011 at 9:28 PM Rating: Good
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You must have missed the last 9 years where anything RDM melee related is ridiculed into the ground and the performance level of what RDM could do has always been in protestation.

The idea was to actually make a full on 'Best Geared vs Best Geared' comparison to figure out how far behind RDM was, taking things like spellcasting time into account.

It's nearly impossible to do that without some sort of shortcut on both ends.
#303 Aug 29 2011 at 9:51 PM Rating: Default
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You must have missed the last 9 years where anything RDM melee related is ridiculed into the ground and the performance level of what RDM could do has always been in protestation.


I did what any sane person would've done: ignored it.

I've never understood why people care so much about such things... RDM isn't your girlfriend, there is no need to get so offended on its' behalf. I assure you that it's just as good at melee as it's going to be, all the sh*t talk on all the forums doesn't make it any less. If it's actually giving you problems in-game, there's two reasons: either you're using it in a situation where it's counterproductive (HNM, letting pt suffer at expense of meleeing, etc.), or you're playing with @#%^s. You can fix both pretty easily.

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The idea was to actually make a full on 'Best Geared vs Best Geared' comparison to figure out how far behind RDM was, taking things like spellcasting time into account.


This is entirely subjective. Even with exact melee damage numbers in a completely controlled environment, how much weight do you give to the spells we cast, and the spells we can potentially cast?

This is why RDM's are constantly disappointed.. they focus on one aspect of the job and complain that they're not as good at it as they think they should be, disregarding everything else the job is capable of in their equations of balance (if they even consider it at all).

All in all I miss the days when everyone ******* about how overpowered RDM was.. if anything, it showed that they actually understood the job, if only a little.

Edited, Aug 30th 2011 12:01am by LyltiaofLakshmi
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rdmcandie wrote:
RDM can attain an almost static 50% reduction to recast time, SCH can over shoot this for a total of 60% reduction under Alacrity (provided you are wearing loafers and keeping dark weather on yourself)

rdmcandie wrote:
MACC is a joke, any job with access to mage gear can hit close the MACC cap on legion mobs, which is why my BRD/RDM can land slow/para/blind despite having only 150 skill (from /RDM.)
#304 Aug 30 2011 at 12:34 AM Rating: Default
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So much truth in that, but I say let the children dream for the day they can hit like a WAR and main heal.
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#305 Aug 30 2011 at 1:13 AM Rating: Excellent
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You mean essentially what Blue Mage is becoming?
#306 Aug 30 2011 at 4:47 AM Rating: Default
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RDM has access to their entire spell list at all times; BLU has a wider variety of spells that must be severely curtailed into a useable list that locks you out of casting after changing them. In effect, BLU is able to excel in an aspect of their choosing by locking their access to all the others; SCH is very similar, albeit not as restrictive.

I see no reason to complain, nor how it has anything to do with RDM.
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rdmcandie wrote:
RDM can attain an almost static 50% reduction to recast time, SCH can over shoot this for a total of 60% reduction under Alacrity (provided you are wearing loafers and keeping dark weather on yourself)

rdmcandie wrote:
MACC is a joke, any job with access to mage gear can hit close the MACC cap on legion mobs, which is why my BRD/RDM can land slow/para/blind despite having only 150 skill (from /RDM.)
#307 Aug 30 2011 at 5:03 AM Rating: Decent
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Hyrist wrote:
LyltiaofLakshmi wrote:
Or just look up the stats and do some math?



Math equates nothing for human judgement or error. Using it as your sole method of data gathering treats your players like robots which is both inaccurate and just plain terrible behavior.

Actual testing, especially in the case of Red Mage takes testing beyond raw math data and gives back the whole picture.

Was it wise for RDM to be casting X Spell vs Bursting Y spell or just meleeing?

How likely is it for RDM to commit to WSing at the correct time?

There is a wealth of data that cannot be made simply by punching numbers into a spreadsheet, and the fact that people have taken the game down to that has, frankly, ruined a great deal of fun for me in the genera as a whole.

Let's take another popular genera, like MOBA's, and make a rough Analogy.

Breaking this game down to the spreadsheet has essentially posted all the possible scoreboards in every MOBA fight possible. All you have to do is punch in the right combination of characters with 'insert x gear' in it and your fight outcome is made up for you.

You don't even need to play. Just enjoy your stat sheet and move on.

That's how FFXI is beginning to feel to me. There's no reason to go out and do anything when the effort is weighed, measured, and at it's worst, judged before it's even come to my mind as an idea to do.

What's the point?

At least when you physically do a test like I recommended, the feedback data is more of a scoreboard rather than a spreadsheet.


This is largely the fault of ignorant people.

This misunderstand what parsing / theory crafting is.

Parsing is simply gathering data from a specific event / monster battle, it's not gospel and doesn't prove X vs Y ever. Human's are entirely too random and this game relies too much on human judgement for parsing to ever be remotely accurate in making Job X vs Job Y, or weapon X vs weapon Y type comparisons. Its just a good way to collect data about attack / accuracy / defense, which leads to the second part.

Theory / paper crafting is just taking the data accumulated from parses / analytical methods and using that to determine X possibility from situation Y. It can be used to determine what is possible, not what will actually happen. Theory crafting states that at 5% DA, 100 attacks will produce 105 swings and of those 99.75 [99] will hit. In actuality you can have 101, 110, 120, or 150 swings from 5% DA and of those 80, 100, or 150 that actually hit. It's all random numbers determined by entropy, you can't predict it.

And neither of these can possibly account for the human behind the keyboard, nor the other humans behind the other 17 keyboards, nor the other humans in the same vicinity behind their keyboards. The most important part of playing a MMO is the ~playing~ of the MMO, not the number crunching on excel spreadsheets. An interested attentive player on RDM/NIN will beat out a non-interested inattentive player on WAR/SAM, I've demonstrated this many times over again during the last half dozen years or so. And just because a player is attentive / interested on RDM/NIN does not guaranteed they'll be attentive / interested on WAR/SAM, all players are not created equal, we're not robots and we don't all react the same way. So someone who enjoys and is very good at doing hybrid RDM may not be so good at doing MNK, WAR, DRK, or *gasp* BLU, just do to shear boredom. This is why people need to find what works for them and go with it, provided their group accepts them and their successful in whatever endeavor they take on, and success is measured in enjoyment gained not loot earned. Which beings me to my final point before I duck out again.

The success of an MMO player is not measured in the quantity of *leet* loot obtained, the number of trophy's attained, nor the number of monsters felled. It's measured in the amount of enjoyment they had, we're playing a game after all. Deprive a player of enjoyment long enough and they'll leave, and that is bad for the game. This is not the *special snowflake* argument, as being different just to be different is pretty ignorant (unless someone's enjoyment is from being different, but now we're talking medical issues).

Edited, Aug 30th 2011 11:04am by saevellakshmi
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Lucinus wrote:
when you're hefting something that deadly, you don't miss - mobs get the **** out of the way instead...
#308 Aug 30 2011 at 7:28 AM Rating: Default
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SlashAnonymous wrote:
You mean essentially what Blue Mage is becoming?


BLU can't hit like a WAR, it can cast really hard spells, but that eats into their ability to effectively main heal at the same times.

Christ.
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#309 Aug 30 2011 at 11:00 AM Rating: Good
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Got on the test server.

Any requests on what to try?
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#310 Aug 30 2011 at 12:31 PM Rating: Good
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rdmcandie wrote:
SlashAnonymous wrote:
You mean essentially what Blue Mage is becoming?


BLU can't hit like a WAR, it can cast really hard spells, but that eats into their ability to effectively main heal at the same times.

Christ.


Check out the numbers Heavy Strike is getting on the test server.

What is SE thinking...I have no clue.

Edited, Aug 30th 2011 2:32pm by SlashAnonymous
#311 Aug 30 2011 at 1:00 PM Rating: Excellent
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Out of curiosity, I gave BLU a peek. For 32 MP, 1300+ without CA/Efflux is kinda silly. Did a little shy of 3500 with those. Definitely gonna be another decent update for BLU, and we have no idea what new gear or trials will bring.
#312 Aug 30 2011 at 1:33 PM Rating: Good
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Yeah, Heavy Strike is an Auto Crit spell with a 75% Str Mod that costs 32 MP and has a 30 sec recast time iirc.
#313 Aug 30 2011 at 1:38 PM Rating: Excellent
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Think the recast was closer to 15s, but I also had Wail up.
#314 Sep 01 2011 at 8:00 PM Rating: Excellent
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Hands Ex Rare Lv94
Defense27 MP+50 DEX+8 Dark defense+50 Haste+4%
WAR, MNK, RDM, THF, DRK, BRD, NIN, BLU, COR, PUP, DNC

Back Rare Lv92
Defense8 INT+4 Mag.Atk+4 Adle+6%
WHM, BLM, RDM, BRD, SMN, BLU, PUP, SCH

Waist Ex Rare Lv95
Defense6 Accuracy+6 Evasion+6 Haste+6%
WAR, RDM, THF, PLD, DRK, BST, BRD, RNG, SAM, NIN, DRG, BLU, COR, DNC

Feet Rare Lv92
Defense22 AGI+8 Parry+8 Store TP-3 Haste+4%
RDM, THF, RNG, NIN, COR, DNC


Some items dug up from test server DATs I found interesting. Gonna assume the Addle on the back piece will slow cast time if you start with it on, but it'd otherwise be our best nuke damage back. Other items are mainly some Haste upgrades/GTFO dusk slow, but probably scattered over VW loot pools.
#315 Sep 01 2011 at 9:07 PM Rating: Default
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It would also reduce macc, I'm not too keen on it for stronger stuff at first glance, might not be that bad though but has anyone even quantified addle's -macc?
#316 Sep 01 2011 at 9:54 PM Rating: Decent
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Mistake ~

Edited, Sep 1st 2011 11:54pm by LyltiaofLakshmi
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rdmcandie wrote:
RDM can attain an almost static 50% reduction to recast time, SCH can over shoot this for a total of 60% reduction under Alacrity (provided you are wearing loafers and keeping dark weather on yourself)

rdmcandie wrote:
MACC is a joke, any job with access to mage gear can hit close the MACC cap on legion mobs, which is why my BRD/RDM can land slow/para/blind despite having only 150 skill (from /RDM.)
#317 Sep 02 2011 at 9:16 AM Rating: Decent
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omg dusk item replacements wtf!
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