Job Adjustmentｓ ManifestoFollow

Obligatory counterpoints:



Swap it in to cast buffs, change back to melee gear after? (It's 2011 and we still have to tell people to use gearswaps...?)



If you can't acquire a +2 set for a job you take seriously enough to bitch about incessantly on the forums...

Composure is not a toy. Learning how to take advantage of it to the fullest is RDM 101.

I know many people who actually did consider it a steaming pile of crap for that reason, at least before AF3+2.

This speaks volumes about how you look at the job. Frontline and backline RDM is not the distinction that should be made; There are RDMs that are prepared to leverage any of their trades according to the needs of strategy, whether it be meleeing, nuking, buffing, healing, stunning, crowd control, enfeebling, kiting, tanking, pulling, saccing, or any of the various combinations of the above; and RDMs who only bother with the aspects of the job they think are valuable/enjoyable (and curiously enough, tend to look down on other players who choose to utilize the aspects of the job they themselves shun).

As such, every spell/ability fits our 'jack of all trades' role, as they are all useful in various circumstances.

On a related note, I know Saevel likes to paint anyone that disagrees with him/her as a non-RDM that just wants RDM to cycle buffs forever, but the simple fact is that a great RDM has the gear/skill to cover whichever angle will get the job done faster/safer/more efficiently. If you're the type that refuses to cycle buffs when cycling buffs is what your party needs, or just flat-out refuses to come as RDM for that reason, you are a sh*tty RDM. Period.

And furthermore, why is cycling buffs even a problem anymore? Enhancing duration is doubled, drastically reducing the frequency at which you have to cycle; and the old XP format when cycling endlessly was the only way to keep your party going is long dead. The instances in which you'd find yourself cycling are drastically reduced in frequency, duration, and effort, and chances are good that it will be alleviated further with more duration+ gear at the very least. It really just seems to me like you're bitching just to bitch, as per usual.

So what you're saying is that you're opposed to actually helping your party. Got it.

Then go level a job you enjoy.

The solution to relieving the tedium of maintaining buff cycles is not to stamp your feet and scream at SE to never ever ever give you a spell that can be cast on others ever again. The solution is to stamp your feet and scream for SE to give you the tools to make maintaining buffs trivially easy such that they're not such a burden. Would you people be all up in arms if Temper was castable on others with a 30 minute duration like how Protect and Shell are? I think not, but please, feel free to correct me in that assumption and illustrate your commitment to ensuring you are not contributing to your party.

The job dosen't function the way advertised and described.

So Cid suggest you abandon the job and level something different.

GREAT way to fix the job. Let's just delete it!

And before you say "Well some people like RDM being a cycle based single target healer."

Some people also like watching child porn, or getting kicked in the nads by kleets. Doesn't mean it's fun in the conventional sense.

Single Target buffing the entire party seems like an exerosize in tedium, no matter how you try to phrase it. There's only two solutons: One, encourage RDM to try to focus on one person's heavy buffs in priority (And don't tell me it dosen't exist already, thats' what we have in a refresh/haste priority list.)

Or, you become an AoE buffer, in which case, you're pretty much a Bard or Corsair.

If we're going to be a single target buffer, lets have better support for giving a SINGLE target better buffs. I've no problem shooting specific buffs to specific people. But if we get more single target buffs the tedium of this is going to get even worse. And there's a sizeable concern among both front and back line Red Mages about the tedium of single target buffs.

The new JA won't help all that much with it even as it stands. Crying about temper not going the way of haste is laughable to me because people who desired it that way, weren't thinking of the long term development of the job and what adding a spell like that to the party list would impact it.

It's just a shortsighted "Oh I want another melee buff to cycle and be important again!" cry. And honestly, if we're wanting to support a party better in melee performance, debuffs would be better over buffs, as one cast covers an entire party's or sometimes even an alliance's performance.

Again, I'm in support of a singular ability that blanket effects our buffs to give to another. Then any arguments about self target spells and set ups is kind of irrelevant, and we DO end up meeting the manifesto in the buffing sense. And gives our solo/duelist fashion a twist to be able to bestow it upon a party member.

Or you're playing tank party RDM vs. HNM?

Savvy individual... lol.

Some are more open about it than others, but yeah, this pretty much sums it up.

I'm starting to wonder what the percentage of people complaining about cycling buffs having full +2 armor is, because it really can't be overstated how much less obnoxious it is with the increased duration.

And before anyone posts anything even vaguely resembling "not everyone has full +2, it's hard, etc.", stop wasting your time posting here and go get it already. There isn't a single piece that's remotely difficult or time-consuming to acquire.

Only on cast.

Cactuar and Goblin suck, both as fights and repop/KI requirements. Just getting to fight the tiger is tedium on Sylph between the buffalo and tiger itself almost always seeing 2+ groups at them the times I've gone for myself and others. Sure, you could try to skip the buffalo step and buy hides off the AH if available, but some aren't keen on paying 80k+ just to see a pool of WHM seals load.

And what you consider "handing things out" is more of an attempt to cement job identity. Even if one might try to cling to the Manifesto, there's that nagging "But..." that, aside from a gross lack of party buffing spells, accomplishing an actual distinction from WHM does indeed involve fishing up a particular set of gear. In comparison, WHMs can still be decent healers without their own +2 set, it just builds upon the concept instead of being a requirement.

Overall, cycles aren't a problem that's rooted in gear. Equipment may mask the problem, but it's really the short, default durations and no natural growth through leveling that is the issue in contrast to Barspells, that while having a default duration, do indeed grow with Enhancing skill. Abyssea trivializing the leveling process doesn't change that and on some server somewhere you can have a first-job RDM slogging it through leveling and limit breaks where all the spiffy gear isn't just going to be falling into their lap unless they're lucky. You might not care about him, feel he has to earn his stripes, or whatever, but it's basically the difference between working to eventually, maybe have fun with your job and having fun while working to better your job. And I at least hope we've established cycles aren't fun.

*Cough*

You know you just agreed with everything I've been saying for the past 6+ years.


Strawman, I never said anything of the sorts. There IS a group of individuals out there who have zero desire to see RDM do anything other then cycled buffs on them (the players, not the RDMs). They come on here and on the official forums and try to tell us "our place", Shadow is one of these, Cid is another. We've been chasing them off for a long time. I like to use Shadow as a prime example, because he doesn't play RDM. He used to play RDM, gave up and moved to Blue Mage. Ever since his point has been "don't melee on RDM, just cycle buffs, SE should give all the RDM orientated melee buffs to BLU instead". He's said this in various forms over the past couple of years.

Now I'll entertain any discussion or even debate, provided it's rational and even headed. I refuse to entertain trolls and rarely respond to them anymore. Unfortunately Alla doesn't have an Ignore poster option, at least not one that I can find. There is no problem with someone wanting to play RDM using the mage only tools, just as there is no problem with someone wanting to play RDM using the melee only tools. Both would be missing out on the full capabilities but to each his / her own. My beef comes when one or the other rants and raves on how the other is "doing it wrong" and tries to force their play style onto the other. I liken it to the bible thumpers who walk around telling everyone their wrong unless they do what the bible thumper says.


You know, I swear I've said something that sounds a whole lot like this, many times over again. RDM is about White Magic + Black Magic + Melee, it's all three and thus a great RDM will have all three tool sets ready.


When has this ~EVER~ come from my fingers? I didn't want to cycle MORE buffs then we already do, as in don't have SE add more to the list. I'd prefer if Accession worked with Haste / Refresh II so I can just get them all out at once. But that not withstanding, I do cycle haste / refresh, not because I like it but because it's needed (or rather was needed).


That is a recent development and a greatly appreciated one at that. But it means absolutely nothing if SE just stacks more cycled buffs on top of us. Anytime saved from longer durations is lost from having more buffs to cycle. Them not making Temper a cycled spell is a step in the right direction. Them not making it aoe-able is a sad thing. Potentially they'll give us a JA that aoe's our next self cast buff, we'll just have to wait and see. I'd prefer that or a way to "Aura" our spells so that anyone within range gets the effects, this would virtually cement us a place near the front but also allow us a spot in the back.


Ahh and now it really comes out. LoO just can't let the ghost die can it. Why don't you step away from your sock puppet and let everyone know that this is a personal vendetta.


Where do people get this impression that I'm "Melee Onry" on RDM? Seriously I play both sides equally, and in actuality I tend to play the mage side more due to the events I bring my RDM on. I have a full enfeebling / nuking / convert / enhancing build, I have the subs leveled, hell I'm practically plastered to /SCH most of the time. I even have the item for Aquaveil for Accession on blink tanks, had Phalanx II merits until PLD's Phalanx become stronger. I'm for equal utility between all our facets, and right now the one suffering the most is the melee side. Just because some people chose not to utilize it doesn't mean it doesn't exist or isn't valid. It's just as valid as our Healing, Buffing, Nuking, Crowd Control and Enfeebling aspects.

Edited, Aug 26th 2011 12:05pm by saevellakshmi

I'll just inform my boss that I can't make it to work today because I need to farm.

Yet I don't see Composure helping our nuking or healing. Both examples emphasize a gear set tailored for a specific purpose that didn't exist without it, yes, but the point I was trying to make was WHMs aren't so reliant on a specific set for something that should be native if SE is trying to pimp the RDM class as a buffer.

Conveniently omit my second paragraph if you wish, but I have no problem with gear enhancing a job's aspects when it's not a requirement to even introduce it as an aspect, hence why I called needing a +2 set a lesser variant of the CDC issue. WHM, however, doesn't need their set or an empyrean/relic/mythic weapon to be a decent WHM. It helps, sure, but I'm not exactly seeing alternatives for RDMs and buff durations for everyone but themselves, nor do I want to see a slew of items only for the purpose of extending durations (which would probably include WHM and SCH, thus defeating the purpose of creating a niche). WHM was just fortunate enough to receive native tools to emphasize their position and thus not absolutely need specific gear. RDM hasn't been so lucky.

Overall, I wish certain people would stuff that "pride" in accomplishment or grossly minimizing the hurdles players not themselves can experience due to both RL and in-game conditions. Setting personal goals is fine, especially in the interest of bettering of your character. The problems arise when said people think they're superior because they did something first or someone bringing up issue is just whining just because they happened to put up with it. They can play the, "Oh, you're just trying to be a bleeding heart, martyr, white knight, moral fag!" or whatever card if they want, but just because a problem might not be a problem to them doesn't mean it isn't a problem. So, if it isn't obvious yet, fixing RDM's problems solely through gear isn't a solution, it's a band-aid.

You can pretty much call the higher tier cures their potency traits. At 75, 20% cure potency wasn't too difficult for WHMs to get, with more if you were willing to fiddle with the Medicine Ring latent. Maybe a bit expensive when Noble's was first introduced, but it and Shining Cloth eventually crept down. Meanwhile, even their +1 head goes toward that purpose, as well as some accessories both exclusive and not. Correlating to RDM, our +1 feet and the cape aren't really a game changer, nor does a near-6 minute Haste stand out as much as an 1100+ cure (especially in dispel/overwrite-happy situations).

I'm not burnishing anything about saying cycles suck, though, and their overall effect on the job's ability to branch out is indeed a consequence. I'm not the only person here who hates cycles. I'm not the only one who understands that if SE were to pursue the Manifesto in earnest, more cycles will be misery without some universal attention to duration and application methods. I'll "think of the children" as much as I want, thanks. Some of 'em might even appreciate it.

What effort are you talking about? Please don't tell me your so naive that you think Temper and a few minor buffs are clues to anything game changing. The longer duration of buffs isn't exactly a melee upgrade either. The reason being it applies to all facets of RDM including more time to heal and other mage duties. Show me some real proof by SE like gear and no AF3 +2 doesn't do sh*t for us except for the above mentioned duration boost which I already pointed out. All you have are hunches based on delusions of grandeur. I explained to you before that the balance of back-line jobs is already terribly unbalanced. You seriously think that SE would take steps to bring RDM to the front line in any capacity? How many years has it been seriously?

There is always hope Saevell. As FFXI continues to lose subscribers like with their latest stunt with billing, maybe they'll listen to the people still left. If RDM is EVER accepted to the front lines in any hybrid capacity(IE requested, like a BRD used to be requested), I have no doubt whatsoever that the game will be so changed that ALL mages and jobs will be on the front line just like an offline FF game. I'm sorry I had to shatter your dreams, but it's not healthy in live in a fantasy world.

I highly doubt you'll even respond to me at this point. You can say what you want about me, but I'm debating facts here. All you have is wishful thinking. Show me a shred of proof. Proof= real changes, not your typical JP DEV who laughs after each question and is so vague, there are 1,000 possibilities to what the guy was saying in the first place. You want to run your mouth, fine... prove what you claim for once.

I can confirm that the future exists.

There are hoverboards, and Tab soda.

That's essentially what he is saying by making such claims. I personally won't pretend to know what will happen, but I do know that there are more variables besides our one class. Honestly what he is arguing is nothing but a pipe dream, however my own personal bias might be blocking my judgment. RDM has been far too versatile to nail down to one single role. Yet my thought process only considers what your typical RDM does, not the minority. Lastly I think it's important to say that while I gave up on RDM in a hybrid role(cuz of BLU) that doesn't mean I want the job to change for what I use it now. For RDM's to be accepted on the front lines in any capacity, SE will have to re-balance our mage role in the backline which will cause resentment with a lot of RDM's now. Those are just a few of the reasons why I'm against a hybrid role upgrade. I understand wanting to do something different though, that's why there are more jobs to play. The logic of some RDM's is that they want to hybrid on RDM when other jobs already do it. Well I'd like to be a master NIN DD like the class is designed in FF lore, but I'm stuck being a pseudo DD and tank. The point is that SE must have balance to a MMO and unlike an offline rpg, some roles get adjusted for the worse.

So after reading this last batch of posts, let me get this straight...

1. After complaining about being stuck in cycles, people want spells to be cast on others in order to cast cycles now that we no longer have cycles?

2. Somehow melee buffs aren't melee buffs because they aren't ideal and/or perfect?

3. Composure is a toy?

4. Most RDMs don't want to melee even though melee is the main thing that differentiates that class from other class, say SCH?

I seriously don't understand the vast majority of you "RDM's". I honestly believe only a few of you actually get it. Fortunately, I've seen progress throughout the years.

Personally, the proc thing kind of screwed over RDM, but at the cost of allowing me to actually play a RDM and not some bootleg WHM or BLM. If I'm in a group environment, people aren't as critical of my game play.

I absolutely love composure and how it only affects the caster... eff everyone else. That's what a brd and cor is for. Don't get me wrong, I don't mind having some special RDM buffs, but I prefer having a clear "role". If SE wants to make RDM the special "buffer" class, then I want everything. On the other hand, I don't want to be "the enfeebler" or "Jack of All Trades" doing buff cycles of 1 or 2 spells. It's either all or nothing in my opinion.



*. I'm actually surprised that no one mentioned Addle being given to WHM.

Powerfull? Seriously?

Sure on paper a job that can melee well and mage well looks powerful, but RDM can not benefit from both arts at the same time, it is limited to either or. Doing both would drastically cut down on the impact of either art.

This is why I said long ago (shortly after SCH introduced the Arts swap) that RDM should have an ability that lets you swap between melee and mage mode, with obvious buffs and debuffs in specific areas. SE kind of attempted this with composure, but with RDM capping recast alone the effective "nerf" to casting is pretty much unnoticeable.

But RDM getting a huge melee buff won't break the job, because you can't really effectively use melee and magic at the same time, and unlike BLU we don't have the secondary tools to even support the notion.

BLU and RDM are not the same, BLU is designed around spell spamming and auto attacking, RDM is designed to apply constant melee OR cast spells. The way that RDM works prevents the combining of the two because of several reasons, most importantly cast lock. A BLU can drop a 4K spell in a secnd and a half, it takes RDM 4-5 seconds to drop a 2K spell. The job would be perfectly fine in balance if SE buffed the tits out of it.



BLUs damage comes from its spells, you don't invite a BLU because of its melee ability, you invite one because the can dump an MP pool and clear 20K of a mobs HP bar, while blood tanking it. BLU's melee ability is about as good as a RDM, outside of abyssea RDM pulls ahead because of Enspells. I have never been out parsed by a BLU in melee damage (in total damage yes, but that is because they kill with spells) and I have played with every level of BLU sh*tty as full AF to balls to the wall BLU's.

The jobs is designed with spell damage as a priority with melee supplementing. RDM is either a melee DD, or a mage (DD) not both. BLU is married to casting spells, where in order for RDM to melee (DD) efficiently it stops casting pretty much entirely.

But humor me, how is RDM going to become super powerful?

Just gonna quote myself from the OB after tinkering some on the test server:

It just came to mind, but with the Test Server allowing you to take your pick at any piece of gear, this might be the prime time to do some REAL testing of RDM's melee performance with peak methods.

Ain't going to be a better way to see it through SE's eyes and settle issues as to exactly what's going on in their heads and see what they're thinking of giving us such weak buffs generally.

I can't get in the game until at least after September due to billing issues and a lack of money, might be until October at least. Is anyone game for trying this?

Hmm. Rats.

Cause the Test server would have been optimum to test specific things in the game like that and dispel rumors or preconceptions... for ANYTHING, honestly.

Go in, test a build/make to check the viability of it, and upon confirmation, chart your genuine game effort to get the gear for your live account.

Math equates nothing for human judgement or error. Using it as your sole method of data gathering treats your players like robots which is both inaccurate and just plain terrible behavior.

Actual testing, especially in the case of Red Mage takes testing beyond raw math data and gives back the whole picture.

Was it wise for RDM to be casting X Spell vs Bursting Y spell or just meleeing?

How likely is it for RDM to commit to WSing at the correct time?

There is a wealth of data that cannot be made simply by punching numbers into a spreadsheet, and the fact that people have taken the game down to that has, frankly, ruined a great deal of fun for me in the genera as a whole.

Let's take another popular genera, like MOBA's, and make a rough Analogy.

Breaking this game down to the spreadsheet has essentially posted all the possible scoreboards in every MOBA fight possible. All you have to do is punch in the right combination of characters with 'insert x gear' in it and your fight outcome is made up for you.

You don't even need to play. Just enjoy your stat sheet and move on.

That's how FFXI is beginning to feel to me. There's no reason to go out and do anything when the effort is weighed, measured, and at it's worst, judged before it's even come to my mind as an idea to do.

What's the point?

At least when you physically do a test like I recommended, the feedback data is more of a scoreboard rather than a spreadsheet.