Job Adjustmentｓ ManifestoFollow

I'm having strong doubts this actually counts as "Double Attack", particularly when you considering the wording when it says "Occasionally Attacks Twice"

Well, I'd like to lean toward standard Double Attack if only because we've never seen OAT and the like on anything not a weapon and this could easily be a translation burp. And if it is OAT, what would it do to weapons like Joyeuse? Overwrite the ~45%? Stack? Strongest wins? In comparison, COR's Fighter's Roll is DA, and rather potent on 11 with a WAR (24%).

Edited, Aug 19th 2011 2:47pm by Seriha

All great questions, really.

SE has a pretty varied track record for our buffs. Like, when we belitteled composure before we realized it was tripple, then Tier II enspells turned out to be total crap.

On a side note, it's SOOO easy to flare up =10 with on hyperbole post. I love it.

*popcorn*

Edited, Aug 19th 2011 2:55pm by Hyrist

I'm just wondering why we didn't another way to cure. While I'm all for Cure V, I know others what something different for image, uniqueness, whatever flavor of the day. But anything would have been nice.

Temper has potential, and it's a new spell that directly influences damage, but lots of little things that have already been mentioned can make or break it.

Until they stop making random immunities to debuffs, enfeebling will never make up for lack of curing. Nor will another tier of Regen, welcome though it would be, Regen is too slow to make up for Cure IV being our only reactive heal.

A regen-like spell, ~100 HP tick, low duration, etc, I could live with that. Still, this Cure V WHMonry BS SE just pulled is stupid.

Fairly certain regardless of player outcry their going to nail the point home that White Mage is supposed to be the go to solo healer for anything important, and if you want to try to cover healing without it, you're going to have to invite more than one mage to split the duty on top of other things.

This feeling that this is SE's approach to healing and trying to keep varied jobs all around is so solid in my gut that it's occasionally nauseating. But oddly, I don't care that Solo healer jobs are on a shortage, specialized healing tends to be the least desired of all roles in MMOs.

I've always liked the concept of learning how to adapt and share roles between classes, as well as be able to invite jobs for several reasons aside from just one. If SE is trying to encourage this, then a heavy handed approach to healing and other duites as far as making them something that should be shared among players and not just forced to one mage who does it all (or enough to justify not inviting more) kinda... makes me feel better about SE's wonky approach to MMOs in general.

We need to eliminate cycles, not add to them...

I know that, that's why I said here's another buff rotation implying SE new use for us is to be a buff whore again. Honestly if you think about it, we really don't have a lot to do anymore. If anyone thinks that Temper won't be exploited by DD's, you're fooling yourselves.

I'd be fine if it were self cast only, but able to be made area effect with /sch. Actually, I'd prefer it that way. I'd rather not deal with the party cycle BS again.

Kind of indifferent on it since our TP gear is still a bit antiquated. STR, DEX, and AGI will certainly be situational on the martial front, but the ATK/STR the spell offers doesn't quite remedy current shortcomings on its own.

In terms of TP gear, I'd like to see our Head, Body, Hand, and Feet slots improve. Aside from Dusk's meager attack, all the slots currently offer without using an add-on reward is Haste if trying to cap it. ACC can be a concern again post-Abyssea, as well as solid ATK ratings if not /WAR or /DRK with respective JAs up. It'd show SE is keeping a better eye on us if we could improve on that with other custom-tailored things like +Enspell, Subtle Blow, or even Sphere effects that people might want us to be offering. I'm still crabby over Calmacec Trouser's -ACC since every other job has better Haste options on the legs with other stats on top.

To basically say to that what I've said to some of the anti-melee on the OB: Given SE's long-standing career of FFXI @#%^ ups big and small, implying they somehow got RDM "right" after its initial early-game issues is folly.

Basically, they're historically horrible at fixing their wrongs, but to assume it could never happen just because it's taken so flippin' long is equally folly. Things might not be righted for a job in one update alone (See: PUP), but as long as the game is actually updated, that potential will always exist. If you just want to roll over and silence yourself for fear of the language barrier and such, well, that's your choice. JPs have their nuts for all jobs, too.

RDM SMN SCH DNC BLU PLD PUP DRG


Not enough jobs to cover heals, really?

No, the problem is with the playerbase not wanting to invite hybrid jobs over damage dealers, so they want to pigeonhole as few support jobs as possible onto a group so the DDs can focus ONLY on DD instead of actually having to use other aspects of their job.

There's more than enough cures in the game as it stands. People just need to actually USE them.

Being a healing class a primary healer doesn't automatically make.

Portions of the game are on easy mode, sure. But only portions, and only after immoderate accommodations.

I'm sick of Cure IV spamming. Just because it's viable doesn't mean it's practical.

I'll admit that I'm looking at this from the 6-man party perspective. SMN is not going to be main healing a party just because of carby + favor. Blood Pact timers get in the way and /WHM doesn't help much until past a certain level due to lack of access to cures at the baseline (which means that rather than compliment a SMN's ability to heal, /WHM makes healing on SMN possible without the extended stops due to BP timers). BLU, SCH and RDM have what's needed to main heal (granted, BLU has to wait much longer to be able to main heal a group), which is complimented by /WHM. PUP's lacking control of the automaton (not to mention those internal cooldowns on casting) mean you're not seeing them main heal a party. PLD requires specific gear and/or being a tarutaru. DRG has to sub WHM in order to get those heals out, needs specific gear to increase the healing threshold for the wyvern and has to wait until 90 to be able to directly order the wyvern to let loose a healing breath (which means no, DRG is not main-healing FoV/GoV parties or colibri parties).
You focus on damage dealing when you're DPS. You focus on healing when you're a healer. You focus on tanking when you're a tank. Multi-tasking is "admirable" and all, but that's what it always comes down to. Cures for emergencies are good, and even better when a mechanic is in place to facilitate them. That's not what I'm talking about, though. I'm talking about the fact that outside of WHM, there's no one else who can take over the main healer slot. Sadly, Final Fantasy as a whole has crammed its main healing potential into one job. That alone is why so many people are asking for RDM and SCH to get Cure V. I may not agree with it , but I do see what is causing the problem.
This is very true, but again, the issue is compounded when your main healer is boiled down to one job out of twenty.

You're right, though. At the risk of annoying the anti-WoW crowd, there's thirty specs in WoW, five of which are healing specs (Holy Paladins, Resto Druids, Resto Shaman, Holy Priests, Discipline Priests), but Healer is still one of the more difficult slots to fill (only thing harder to fill is tank). My point is that you don't have to have a Holy Paladin, or a Disc Priest, or a Resto Shaman. Any of them can be the healer in a group, and all heal at equivalent capacity. That's not what we have in FFXI. It's pretty much WHM and the jobs that could possibly "support" it in combat, and might be able to cover for one if the content is "easy" enough.

Hyrist expects the masses to overlook a job's lacking damage because of the extra heals. And as I've mentioned over and over again, it's been tried and it fell flat on its face. You need not look further than RDM to see it (or if you want another example, Ret Paladins between the launch of Burning Crusade and the release of Sunwell Plateau).

Simply put, it's a "people" problem created by gameplay and group dynamics.

Edited, Aug 22nd 2011 9:10am by Ruisu

People get upset when I say that BLU is RDM v2,but it's true. BLU was created form the ground up to be that melee/mage caster. Some RDM's want to try and convince me that evne JP RDM's want to melee. I call b.s. on that. The majority of ALL RDM's don't want to melee. Notice I said the majority and their reasons are all different. My reasons are simple. I have BLU now and it does better damage, is more respected, and offers me a different role than typical RDM backline style which I like too. Some RDM's want to assume that because we get a single spell like Temper, that means SE is planning to move us up to the front lines in some capacity. Meanwhile smart RDM's point out we lack the gear and there is no plans to change that. Dumb RDM's argue we can do it already showing parses that pretend to make it self evident. I'm not attacking someone's playstyle here or preference, but it's just not realistic to expect SE or the player base to accept you. Other jobs like BLU do it better than us and are accepted in that slot by the majority. Most people believe in the hardest DD's+a few support, equally win. Any job that can't put out instant damage like NIN(tanking they do fine) or RDM falls short of a superb DD in the majority's eyes.

If my words aren't to be believed, think back to the earlier years back when our presence was required for enfeebling. Dispeling a crab sure pumped up the DD's DPS didn't it or removing shell off a target for the BLM's to nuke. Now RDM's primarily heal more than anything else. Temper and a str absorb spell isn't going to account for crappy gear choices and limited faith in us by the player base.

And this is where I ask how you might be aware of the activities and thoughts of all RDMs on any given server at any given time. Language barriers aside, forums don't even begin to tap into the majority opinion as some are unaware, don't care to post, or might even be afraid to. Yes, I'll admit I know RDMs from Fairy/Sylph who have no interest in meleeing, but I also know those who do. Ultimately, I strive for the option to be there and not get ridiculed into obscurity because some might be too lazy to gear for it, come to the realization they might've been wrong about its feasibility, or just want to be stubborn twats who want to pick fights with people they'll never play with just because.

Otherwise, the job's been sitting on a proverbial chicken and egg scenario when it comes to how people have played it over the years.

The offhand dismissal of irrelevancy ignores the fact that Cure IV is only sufficient in those easy portions of the game, and only just so. A spell that at best eeks out 500 HP isn't enough. A double attack on many NMs does that much, inside and out, let alone figuring the high-powered abilities and the insane ways they now get TP.

As it is, Cure IV barely cuts it as an endurance tool, let along as a reactive/burst cure. And then, RDM and SCH can't use a subjob to augment further. DNC/WHM gets 4 and all Waltzes. PUP/WHM gets 4 and a (sometimes brain dead) Auto. BLU gets 4 and Embrace. DRG gets 4 and wyvern. RDM gets 4 and... Waltz III? Healing Ruby? Ascension (which kills the timer on our only useful cure)? Not only is Cure IV barely sufficient, RDM and SCH get the short end of the stick.

Not only are we poor supplemental healers, we are supposed to be primary healers, capable of being a back-up healer should the WHM be unable to heal or a WHM can't be fielded for any given event.

That's really the crux of the argument, isn't it? Whether we should be primary healers? Whether you want us to be primary healers? People tend to forget or ignore that in our many incarnations in this game alone, we could suitably replace a WHM. Not augment, not support, not supplement, but replace. At greater risk and less efficiency, as it should be. This concept dates all the way back to FF 1. Endurance healing only is a relatively new concept wave. To say we're not deficient healers because paired with a SCH we can heal the nuking party is patently preposterous.

That's good game design. A "required" invite shouldn't be held by a single job, but a handful of jobs catering to various styles and efficiencies. WHM is the most powerful healer, the most efficient healer, the risk management healer. I want a WHM to many events. But there are times, many times, when my friends and I simply can't field a WHM, where we can't rely on theorycrafted situations of perfect setups or 18-man alliances with every job.

One could argue the times when Pink Mages where the better option, and we were, or when nuking and melee wasn't truly a legitimate role, which it often wasn't. But that's hardly the case now. The brute-force MP tools we had are open to WHMs and the playerbase knows it. Paradigms won't wildly shift back to ToAU days. RDM is still free to nuke or melee, or just plain old support.

Now, what's holding us back from melee is triggers, and issues with gear selection and WS availability, but it's a credible choice. The only thing holding us back on nuking is triggers, and even then we still do respectable damage. What's holding us back at healing is the innate tools we lack. A stark contrast to melee and nuking.

Cure V is simply the most obvious choice, and easiest to implement. It wouldn't reduce uniqueness as so feared, especially since Red Mage wasn't all that unique to begin with. It wouldn't detract from WHM, with its myriad amount of tools and spells now. It wouldn't enforce a Pink Mage view for either RDM or SCH. It wouldn't prevent players from building a melee playstyle, that several outspoken players here are so fond of.

But ultimately any reactive/burst spell would do. I rather like the idea of a Cure IV-like spell with an additional short but powerful regen.

Even melee enthusiasts understand that RDM has a concept to uphold and don't want SE straying, otherwise you all would level other hybrid-melee jobs and ignore RDM.





In short, it's a very real, and very relevant, situation. Cure IV barely covers the damage done by many NMs, Abyssea or no. RDM works feverishly to cover endurance curing, and still looses out on the tools all the other jobs enjoy. All the while, the job concept from games immemorial is that we're second best healer, possibly edged out only by SCH due to them lacking a martial side. We should not have to be paired with another job just to do ours. And ultimately, improving our healing side of the RDM trifecta won't reduce the effectiveness of the sides others enjoy, nuking or meleeing.

As it's been said, we're playing Final Fantasy, not just any generic MMO.

Yes. Role diversity is so very greedy.

In the interest of working with what we have, the only real snag I can think of would be just how limited the current combat engine is. That's not counting staying within the FF theme when creating new approaches to healing.

I don't know if the game can handle a 85% HoT/15% burst healer, or a mitigation-based healer. Hell, I don't even think the game would be able to handle "smart heals". Would be interesting, though, to see say SCH become a HoT-based healer when using Light Arts, introduce Green Mage and make it the mitigation-based healer, and so on.

Edited, Aug 22nd 2011 8:07pm by Ruisu

The game already has a damage mitigation specialist, it's called SCH.

And the hierarchy of healing would change how? WHM has higher MP efficiency in their heals being able to cap with great ease @ +50%, WHM has the most MP efficient heals in the game with the Regen line, they have cureskin, they have the best barspells, protects, shells, they have all the -na's natively. While at the same time either benefiting from Fast Cast (that stacks with their generous amount of cure speed cast increase), Refresh, Convert from /RDM, or Fast Cast, MP cost Reduction (on all heals) secondary Curaga 4 (to go with their native version and the upcoming Curaga V), or -ga skins/blinks, and sublimation.

RDM nor SCH can not compare to that, and even with Cure 5 a RDM must chose between longer MP sustainability and greater support ability (from /SCH) or /WHM for all the required -na's while giving up on MP saving abilities, and aoe buffing.

WHM has and will always be the best healer, regardless of RDM and SCH getting cure 5 or not, because WHM is designed to do one thing well, and the others are not. WHM will be fine, unless of course you are basing your entire argument on EXP oriented groups in which case, why even waste your breath discussing an insignificant portion of the game.

WHM is not the preeminent healer because they can cure large amounts of damage at once, although that helps; it's because they can do so with low fixed-enmity spells, allowing them to do so much longer without their enmity reaching dangerous levels. Have you ever wondered why Cure IV gives such nasty amounts of enmity? It's because SE wants you to bring a WHM to fights where that much damage is flying around. If you give that to RDM and/or SCH, you take away the best thing WHM has going for it. Sure, WHM still has Afflatus, better cure potency (marginally, at this point), and cure cast; but that's it, while RDM still has their nukes, enfeebles, and melee capability, and SCH still has their nukes, metamagic, and buffs.

How does this not seem horribly imbalanced and unfair to WHM? How can you not see that this would make WHM the least desired of the jobs able to heal?

The RDM community as of late seems to have forgotten what their job is about, which is trading the single proficiency of a specialist for access to pretty much every proficiency the game has to offer at a decent level. You're not supposed to be able to deal damage on the level of a dedicated DD; you're not supposed to be able to mainheal a party against tough NMs; you're the guy who can leverage your considerable pool of abilities (more than any job in the game) to cover gaps as they appear.

Between all the bitching about melee and curing, I'm more and more convinced you guys have no understanding of game balance and just want to be able throw RDMs at everything and call it a day. (Not that you can't already.. which makes all the bitching even more /facepalm-inducing)

I don't doubt that BLU, in part, is SE learning from their mistakes regarding RDM. However, I just don't subscribe to the belief that RDM's martial aspects are a lost cause when those "cool traits" can be emulated through MP use much like Temper is looking to. However, that's not the only thing that needs to be done, but what needs to be done isn't exactly reinventing the wheel, either.

and this would change the Hierarchy of healing how?



and native -na spells, cureskin, best barspells, best protect/shell, regen IV, Curaga 4 and 5. On top of this they can /RDM can have more MP longevity than a RDM, or they can /SCH and have more MP longevity then a RDM, and better MP savings tools than a SCH.

A RDM gets -na and -ra spells from WHM, thats it, -na and -ra spells, it has less MP durability, weaker heals, slower heals, less mitigation. Even with C5 this remains true, so again I ask, the game would change how? other than allowing groups who have only a RDM healer available a chance to succeed without needing to have someone level yet another job that they may or may not like to play.

You want party role availability, I want job invite variance. If you make it so the player base has the choice to make the simplest, dumbest combination available and exclude the more powerful curing for a stronger support job, they will, every time hands down.

I'll make this flat out plain for you: If Temper is a party cast, and RDM got Cure V, you can kiss WHM's party slot goodbye a wide chunk current content, regardless on how much of a better healer WHM is.

This isn't so much a problem with 'who's the better cure' as 'who's the better overall support' and if you give the other mage jobs cure V you will break WHM because in most other circumstances the bells and whistles WHM gets to it's healing is not only unnecessary, in come cases (Cure VI) It's too costly to use regularly.

So no, the more I argue this, and the more update notes I see, the more adamant I am against RDMs and SCHs getting Cure V as it stands right now. RDMs and SCH should not be competing for the solo healer slot. The slot itself is a pox against mages as causes a neglect of hybrids and pigeonholes jobs that offer a lot more than simple healing to picked and judged upon by the desire to have as fewest people covering support and recovery as possible.

In my opinion, the concept of a single healer should die. It's fictitious in every situation aside from the 'easy' content that is fine the way it is.

Every event of difficulty typically has two or more heal-capable jobs of various type. In which case instead of saying "main" and "support" healing as everyone says, healing more or less could be categorized between "Burst" and "Endurance" healing.

RDM and SCH, the job premise in how they are constructed from the ground up, work BEST as endurance healing. If you give them burst healing on top of that their other contributions will overshadow WHM in everything but the most difficult of situations. Players tend to go bare minimum in terms of healing in favor of more damage and RDM and SCH can contribute to that (Sch is going to get a huge boost to that at 99 due to being able to sub RDM and get haste.)

Put flatly, it dosen't matter how good WHM is at curing at this point. If RDM or SCH can 'do the job' on their own they will get forced into that position and WHM will be find itself excluded again due to overkill and not enough other offensive support. Every job that can cure besides WHM has something holding them back to make sure this isn't the case. It's by design. And I've seen the positive effects on the player base. We're seeing more of other jobs together.

I'm fine for making SCH and RDM better at endurance healing, give RDM Regen III and IV and give Sch a "Helix" type cure. Do not give them burst healing. There are other jobs right now that can do that, should be doing that, and should be invited because they can contribute on that end, rather than be ignored because their damage output isn't the best compared to a job that ONLY deals damage.

SE is re-balancing the jobs keeping both specialists and hybrids in mind. And right now I'm in support of what I'm seeing. I'd rather see them give RDM and SCH something more attuned to their specific styles of play than give them a simple fix that can be potentially very toxic to their efforts to make each job worthwhile on their own merits, rather than by competing directly with others. There should be no fear for a RDM and WHM to be in a party together. Or a SCH and WHM, or a DNC and RDM, or a any other support combination that really makes Cure V on SCH and RDM unnecessary.

Right now, you're telling me they shouldn't be grouped together like that, and that's where we'll never agree.