Forum Settings
       
Reply To Thread

Job Adjustments ManifestoFollow

#152 Aug 19 2011 at 7:18 AM Rating: Default
**
785 posts
I edited all skills/stats down to Rdm level and added +15 accuracy for Rdm. the DA on chimeric is considered always on.

EDIT: @Sunrider: I really hope Spontaneity is recast time as well or I'm probably only going to be using it on nukes.

Edited, Aug 19th 2011 10:20am by Neisan
#153 Aug 19 2011 at 11:27 AM Rating: Good
Scholar
Avatar
***
1,649 posts
Seriha wrote:
Veering away from marginal mathematical semantics, Temper coming at 95 as basically a DA spell. Hoping it's at least 15%, possibly scaling with Enhancing skill. In the event it can be cast on others, really hope its base duration is at least 5 minutes.

I'm having strong doubts this actually counts as "Double Attack", particularly when you considering the wording when it says "Occasionally Attacks Twice"
____________________________

#154 Aug 19 2011 at 12:21 PM Rating: Excellent
Avatar
***
1,033 posts
I'm worried about whether it'll stack with En-spells, to say nothing of it's co-existence with Double Attack.

I'm not fond of yet another spell to add to the cycle in the hopes of bumping up melee, but it's got potential if (as Seriha mentioned), it's potency scales up with skill.
____________________________
Level 75 Scruffy/37 Nerfherder

"The reasonable man adapts himself to the world, the unreasonable one persists in trying to adapt the world to himself. Therefore, all progress depends on the unreasonable man."

- George Bernard Shaw
#155 Aug 19 2011 at 12:47 PM Rating: Excellent
Guru
Avatar
*****
10,679 posts
Well, I'd like to lean toward standard Double Attack if only because we've never seen OAT and the like on anything not a weapon and this could easily be a translation burp. And if it is OAT, what would it do to weapons like Joyeuse? Overwrite the ~45%? Stack? Strongest wins? In comparison, COR's Fighter's Roll is DA, and rather potent on 11 with a WAR (24%).

Edited, Aug 19th 2011 2:47pm by Seriha
#156 Aug 19 2011 at 12:53 PM Rating: Excellent
***
3,059 posts
Hyrist wrote:
Does the spreadsheet count in the 4% Double attack, consitering it's an enspell dependent latent?

Just give the sword a constant 4% DA and it will.

Hyrist wrote:
Also, probably a bad call using PLD standards as we've a B rating, not an A+
You input your current skill.

rdmcandie wrote:
Let me guess you just plugged it into a spread sheet....

Spreadsheets will more than likely be just as accurate as any ad-hoc math we would do, if not more accurate.


Edited, Aug 19th 2011 1:01pm by jlejeune
____________________________
"And I'm prepared to passionately argue this point until nothing makes sense anymore. If that doesn't work, then the hours upon hours of whining will." -Red Mage Statscowski

Saggo of Garuda Lakshmi
#157 Aug 19 2011 at 12:55 PM Rating: Good
Avatar
****
4,354 posts
All great questions, really.

SE has a pretty varied track record for our buffs. Like, when we belitteled composure before we realized it was tripple, then Tier II enspells turned out to be total crap.

On a side note, it's SOOO easy to flare up =10 with on hyperbole post. I love it.

*popcorn*

Edited, Aug 19th 2011 2:55pm by Hyrist
#158 Aug 19 2011 at 1:02 PM Rating: Excellent
Avatar
***
1,033 posts
Hyrist wrote:
All great questions, really.

SE has a pretty varied track record for our buffs. Like, when we belitteled composure before we realized it was tripple, then Tier II enspells turned out to be total crap.

On a side note, it's SOOO easy to flare up =10 with on hyperbole post. I love it.

*popcorn*

Edited, Aug 19th 2011 2:55pm by Hyrist

Haters gon' hate.

Anyway, one more thing that bugs me is this spell's range. Wishing on a star it's self-only.
____________________________
Level 75 Scruffy/37 Nerfherder

"The reasonable man adapts himself to the world, the unreasonable one persists in trying to adapt the world to himself. Therefore, all progress depends on the unreasonable man."

- George Bernard Shaw
#159 Aug 19 2011 at 1:04 PM Rating: Excellent
***
3,059 posts
Hyrist wrote:
All great questions, really.
I'm just wondering why we didn't another way to cure. While I'm all for Cure V, I know others what something different for image, uniqueness, whatever flavor of the day. But anything would have been nice.

Temper has potential, and it's a new spell that directly influences damage, but lots of little things that have already been mentioned can make or break it.
____________________________
"And I'm prepared to passionately argue this point until nothing makes sense anymore. If that doesn't work, then the hours upon hours of whining will." -Red Mage Statscowski

Saggo of Garuda Lakshmi
#160 Aug 19 2011 at 2:42 PM Rating: Decent
Avatar
****
4,354 posts
jlejeune wrote:
Hyrist wrote:
All great questions, really.
I'm just wondering why we didn't another way to cure. While I'm all for Cure V, I know others what something different for image, uniqueness, whatever flavor of the day. But anything would have been nice.

Temper has potential, and it's a new spell that directly influences damage, but lots of little things that have already been mentioned can make or break it.



I'm more of the mind that they're holding off to figure in adjustments to enfeebles. If our enfeebles offset the need for curing on the larger level, then there's no need to add heavily to our cure capacity, and they can just tack on perhaps a higher level regen.

Or maybe an enfeeble that could occasionally restore surrounding members. So I'm more of the mind they're in the conceptual stage of adjustments, and, honestly, as things start to phase out of Abyssea, as well as the level cap rising increasing the ease of abyssea, that desire for heavy curing won't feel as imperative.

But as far as Scholar goes, they got one in the form of their 'brave'.

I'm on hiatus until September though due to billing issues and vacation coming up. I figured a desaturation break from the game while they started listing off update for RDM again would make me feel less frustrated overall. But I'm still wondering to what degree "Temper" will be. If it's high, I'm going to be quite delighted.

Quote:
Anyway, one more thing that bugs me is this spell's range. Wishing on a star it's self-only.


My hopes are on self-only, Accession-able.

Edited, Aug 19th 2011 4:43pm by Hyrist
#161 Aug 19 2011 at 6:03 PM Rating: Excellent
***
3,059 posts
Hyrist wrote:
If our enfeebles offset the need for curing on the larger level, then there's no need to add heavily to our cure capacity, and they can just tack on perhaps a higher level regen.
Until they stop making random immunities to debuffs, enfeebling will never make up for lack of curing. Nor will another tier of Regen, welcome though it would be, Regen is too slow to make up for Cure IV being our only reactive heal.

A regen-like spell, ~100 HP tick, low duration, etc, I could live with that. Still, this Cure V WHMonry BS SE just pulled is stupid.
____________________________
"And I'm prepared to passionately argue this point until nothing makes sense anymore. If that doesn't work, then the hours upon hours of whining will." -Red Mage Statscowski

Saggo of Garuda Lakshmi
#162 Aug 19 2011 at 6:12 PM Rating: Good
***
2,890 posts
In Neisan's defense, RDM has a pretty bad attack deficiency compared to other melee orientated jobs. Having B skill and not getting "uber" gear kinda does that. Accuracy isn't nearly as bad as it used to be due to composure and Pizza (VT+), on anything T or under you'd be using meat. I've noticed better damage with my STR +9 Attack +20 (24.5) sword then my chim flueret on things that are VT outside abyssea. The nerf to Chim Flueret really hurt. I play on getting both a DA+10 and an OaT sword for my off hand, but I'm gonna see how temper works first.

Something lots of people didn't factor in when doing the comparison is how DA / OaT work in respect to stacking. DA will stack with other DA, OaT doesn't stack with DA or TA. Inside Abyssea rolling with VV / Apoc / RR, you have 15 TA 10 DA and whatever from gear / trait, typically 15~20 on PLD and BLU. In those cases the OaT and Multi-Hit weapons lose much steam, but outside abyssea without those atma's and on a RDM who doesn't have godly DA/TA gear, and who gets bonus damage on-hit, those multi hit weapons start to make sense.

And yeah, I'm salivating over being able to add +20 STR (10 Attack) on demand. Temper sounds nice, probably 10~15% DA effect, but god please not like SE do something stupid like "on first hit only", and make it act like gear in that it's on during weapon skills. Composure + AF2 boots and cape will ensure a long duration, and I'm pretty sure it's gonna be self-cast, like enspell and Gain-STR.
____________________________
RoTZ: Complete DM: O
CoP: Complete AN: O
99 SAM, RDM, BLU, WAR, PLD, DRK

lolgaxe wrote:
Nothing in this game is impossible if you set yourself to the task of actually doing it. Even dumb people can only hold you back for so long.


Lucinus wrote:
when you're hefting something that deadly, you don't miss - mobs get the **** out of the way instead...
#163 Aug 19 2011 at 7:08 PM Rating: Good
Avatar
****
4,354 posts
Quote:
Until they stop making random immunities to debuffs, enfeebling will never make up for lack of curing. Nor will another tier of Regen, welcome though it would be, Regen is too slow to make up for Cure IV being our only reactive heal.


Fairly certain regardless of player outcry their going to nail the point home that White Mage is supposed to be the go to solo healer for anything important, and if you want to try to cover healing without it, you're going to have to invite more than one mage to split the duty on top of other things.

This feeling that this is SE's approach to healing and trying to keep varied jobs all around is so solid in my gut that it's occasionally nauseating. But oddly, I don't care that Solo healer jobs are on a shortage, specialized healing tends to be the least desired of all roles in MMOs.

I've always liked the concept of learning how to adapt and share roles between classes, as well as be able to invite jobs for several reasons aside from just one. If SE is trying to encourage this, then a heavy handed approach to healing and other duites as far as making them something that should be shared among players and not just forced to one mage who does it all (or enough to justify not inviting more) kinda... makes me feel better about SE's wonky approach to MMOs in general.
#164 Aug 19 2011 at 8:17 PM Rating: Default
Avatar
****
4,770 posts
My money is on Temper being able to be casted on party members. SE stated recently their plans for RDM were to introduce new powerful enfeebles. It makes no sense to boost melee power for us when the focus is mage orientated via gear/skills. So while Temper can be casted on RDM just like haste, it will be used as a buff for DD's in parties. There goes the buff rotation once again.
#165 Aug 20 2011 at 8:10 AM Rating: Excellent
Avatar
***
1,569 posts
ShadowedgeFFXI wrote:
My money is on Temper being able to be casted on party members. SE stated recently their plans for RDM were to introduce new powerful enfeebles. It makes no sense to boost melee power for us when the focus is mage orientated via gear/skills. So while Temper can be casted on RDM just like haste, it will be used as a buff for DD's in parties. There goes the buff rotation once again.
We need to eliminate cycles, not add to them...
____________________________
Products of boredom: 1 2 3 4 5
Besieged
Hopes for FFXIV: Fencer | Red Mage
#166 Aug 20 2011 at 10:27 AM Rating: Good
***
2,890 posts
Ruisu wrote:
ShadowedgeFFXI wrote:
My money is on Temper being able to be casted on party members. SE stated recently their plans for RDM were to introduce new powerful enfeebles. It makes no sense to boost melee power for us when the focus is mage orientated via gear/skills. So while Temper can be casted on RDM just like haste, it will be used as a buff for DD's in parties. There goes the buff rotation once again.
We need to eliminate cycles, not add to them...



Shadow isn't looking to be the RDM casting the spell, he's looking to be the melee receiving it.

SE's focus is on BOTH melee and mage side now, they've come out and said it.
Quote:
As was stated in the preface of the job adjustments concept, the core concept of these adjustments is to make each job useful in HNM fights as well as other battle-related content. That said, we mentioned that the job adjustments will focus on party structuring, but that doesn’t mean that we will not be looking into the sword-wielding proficiency of red mages. We are actually planning adjustments to red mage’s proficiencies in the upcoming version update.


Quote:
Planning to add these during the next version update. However, this isn’t going to be the tier-III version, we are thinking about a different type of En-spell.


Quote:
We will be looking into both of these along with the weapon skills revamp.


SE will be adding stuff for us on both our mage and melee sides. They've already created the Gain-Stat line, which are self target and highly dependent on Enhancing Magic. Nearly all "RDM" buffs are self cast only, Barspells, Enspells, Phalanx, Gain-Stat, and most likely Temper. Other targetable spells are usually shared between RDM and WHM with Refresh being the odd one out, yet now that's castable from sub so WHM's, SCH's and BLM's can use it to their hearts concent. The last one is Refresh II which SE gave us cause they were giving BRD a new Ballad.

Personally I want a metric fck ton of enhancement spells that can be aoe'd or have aura effect. That alone would fix so many issues, both community and class wise.
____________________________
RoTZ: Complete DM: O
CoP: Complete AN: O
99 SAM, RDM, BLU, WAR, PLD, DRK

lolgaxe wrote:
Nothing in this game is impossible if you set yourself to the task of actually doing it. Even dumb people can only hold you back for so long.


Lucinus wrote:
when you're hefting something that deadly, you don't miss - mobs get the **** out of the way instead...
#167 Aug 20 2011 at 12:10 PM Rating: Default
Avatar
****
4,770 posts
Ruisu wrote:
We need to eliminate cycles, not add to them...


I know that, that's why I said here's another buff rotation implying SE new use for us is to be a buff ***** again. Honestly if you think about it, we really don't have a lot to do anymore. If anyone thinks that Temper won't be exploited by DD's, you're fooling yourselves.
#168 Aug 20 2011 at 6:18 PM Rating: Excellent
Guru
Avatar
*****
10,679 posts
Just wish the update would get here so I could level and test some of this stuff. Too many questions surrounding Temper that exist only because SE is SE. x.x
#169 Aug 20 2011 at 9:41 PM Rating: Excellent
***
1,624 posts
I'd be fine if it were self cast only, but able to be made area effect with /sch. Actually, I'd prefer it that way. I'd rather not deal with the party cycle BS again.
____________________________
Deedlitchan-Bismark server
Female Elvaan 90 rdm/(drk, pld, war, blu, dnc)
75 drg/(rdm, blu, war, sam, drk, pld)
90 drk/(sam, blu, rdm, war, dnc)
San d'Oria-Rank 10
#170 Aug 21 2011 at 12:39 AM Rating: Decent
***
2,890 posts
Deedlitchan wrote:
I'd be fine if it were self cast only, but able to be made area effect with /sch. Actually, I'd prefer it that way. I'd rather not deal with the party cycle BS again.


I that's what all of us are wanting. Use it as a self buff when in melee mode, but also have the option to buff everyone if we're in support mode. If it's made to work like Haste / Refresh then we'd be stuck using it exactly like Haste / Refresh, in that it would be a buff to every ~other~ melee job in the game.

IDK about you guys but am I the only one drooling at Gain-STR. That's pretty epic outside of Abyssea, RDM's don't exactly cap fSTR / Ratio very often.
____________________________
RoTZ: Complete DM: O
CoP: Complete AN: O
99 SAM, RDM, BLU, WAR, PLD, DRK

lolgaxe wrote:
Nothing in this game is impossible if you set yourself to the task of actually doing it. Even dumb people can only hold you back for so long.


Lucinus wrote:
when you're hefting something that deadly, you don't miss - mobs get the **** out of the way instead...
#171 Aug 21 2011 at 1:42 AM Rating: Excellent
Guru
Avatar
*****
10,679 posts
Kind of indifferent on it since our TP gear is still a bit antiquated. STR, DEX, and AGI will certainly be situational on the martial front, but the ATK/STR the spell offers doesn't quite remedy current shortcomings on its own.

In terms of TP gear, I'd like to see our Head, Body, Hand, and Feet slots improve. Aside from Dusk's meager attack, all the slots currently offer without using an add-on reward is Haste if trying to cap it. ACC can be a concern again post-Abyssea, as well as solid ATK ratings if not /WAR or /DRK with respective JAs up. It'd show SE is keeping a better eye on us if we could improve on that with other custom-tailored things like +Enspell, Subtle Blow, or even Sphere effects that people might want us to be offering. I'm still crabby over Calmacec Trouser's -ACC since every other job has better Haste options on the legs with other stats on top.
#172 Aug 21 2011 at 10:40 AM Rating: Default
Avatar
****
4,770 posts
It appears some of the veteran RDM's agree with me even though they're hoping I'm wrong. Realistically we have to go off SE's track record. This isn't about what I want or what you want. You also have to consider that SE is racist and caters to their JP playerbase first. COR barely has any DD gear because most COR's are BRD's in disguise. COR/whm FTL! SE lumps RDM into the same support role. It doesn't matter that they give us a few melee spells or job abilities because... wait for it... wait for it some more... it isn't in their plans to change our status quo. But people that disagree say, look at this or that. Well explain how DRK is still learning black magic? Does SE make any real attempt to make their nukes useful for anything worth a **** beyond solo?

So in recap, we have COR's that sub /whm and are BRD clones.

RDM's that have some DD spells like STR and Temper and en-spells, but no gear to use it.

DRK's who now have tier III nukes yet never use them for anything except soloing maybe for fun.

SE's logic speaks for itself. You can rate me down like you keep doing, but it doesn't change these facts. You guys who are pro-temper/self cast only are clearly delusional as SE's record does not support your stance at all.
#173 Aug 21 2011 at 11:01 AM Rating: Excellent
Guru
Avatar
*****
10,679 posts
To basically say to that what I've said to some of the anti-melee on the OB: Given SE's long-standing career of FFXI **** ups big and small, implying they somehow got RDM "right" after its initial early-game issues is folly.

Basically, they're historically horrible at fixing their wrongs, but to assume it could never happen just because it's taken so flippin' long is equally folly. Things might not be righted for a job in one update alone (See: PUP), but as long as the game is actually updated, that potential will always exist. If you just want to roll over and silence yourself for fear of the language barrier and such, well, that's your choice. JPs have their nuts for all jobs, too.
#174 Aug 21 2011 at 5:48 PM Rating: Decent
Avatar
***
1,569 posts
ShadowedgeFFXI wrote:
Well explain how DRK is still learning black magic? Does SE make any real attempt to make their nukes useful for anything worth a **** beyond solo?

So in recap, we have COR's that sub /whm and are BRD clones.

RDM's that have some DD spells like STR and Temper and en-spells, but no gear to use it.

DRK's who now have tier III nukes yet never use them for anything except soloing maybe for fun.
COR is the victim of one of the core flaws of this game: the fact there's not enough classes going around to cover heals. THAT is why there are players that go COR/WHM and just spam buffs and heal. Healing having no penalty at all when subbed (the way nuking and dark magic do) has done nothing to help. It'd be another story if amount healed was really affected by healing skill, as well as Esuna and the -na's chances of landing being affected by healing skill. Then you'd find COR in a situation where they can use whatever sub they want because subbing a healing job won't do much for them or their group.

Problem is, BRD would then have next to nothing because their normal use as back-up heals/status removal would be dead. Busy work created by 2-minute songs can only do so much for them. So then they'd have to work on BRD's lacking depth outside of songs to create a real playable model. Then you'd have the RDMs and SCHs that are crying for cure V crying even harder because this would nerf their healing.

Which brings about another error in design, that being that status removal is bloody rare in this game. Between WHM and DNC, there's not much else to go by (SMN would count too, were it not for the blood pact timer). Maybe BRD could get a status removal song to compensate.

My point is the situation is delicate and complicated as all **** because FFXI has been built on a very faulty foundation. While I'm not shy about scrapping stuff and doing things over if it means overall improvement, SE may not think that way.

PS: If SE was really catering only to the JP players, we'd probably see a lot more progress on the melee front, because the JP players also want RDM melee (殴り赤) to be viable.

Edited, Aug 21st 2011 7:48pm by Ruisu
____________________________
Products of boredom: 1 2 3 4 5
Besieged
Hopes for FFXIV: Fencer | Red Mage
#175 Aug 21 2011 at 8:38 PM Rating: Good
Avatar
****
4,354 posts
RDM SMN SCH DNC BLU PLD PUP DRG


Not enough jobs to cover heals, really?

No, the problem is with the playerbase not wanting to invite hybrid jobs over damage dealers, so they want to pigeonhole as few support jobs as possible onto a group so the DDs can focus ONLY on DD instead of actually having to use other aspects of their job.

There's more than enough cures in the game as it stands. People just need to actually USE them.
#176 Aug 21 2011 at 8:47 PM Rating: Decent
Avatar
***
1,033 posts
Pretty much what Hyrist said, the assumed shortage of healing classes is a fallacy. The game could half the jobs in the game could be primarily healers, yet there'd still be a shortage simply because the shortage lay in people interested in playing healing roles, particularly dedicated healing roles.

____________________________
Level 75 Scruffy/37 Nerfherder

"The reasonable man adapts himself to the world, the unreasonable one persists in trying to adapt the world to himself. Therefore, all progress depends on the unreasonable man."

- George Bernard Shaw
#177 Aug 21 2011 at 11:02 PM Rating: Good
***
3,059 posts
Being a healing class a primary healer doesn't automatically make.

Portions of the game are on easy mode, sure. But only portions, and only after immoderate accommodations.

I'm sick of Cure IV spamming. Just because it's viable doesn't mean it's practical.
____________________________
"And I'm prepared to passionately argue this point until nothing makes sense anymore. If that doesn't work, then the hours upon hours of whining will." -Red Mage Statscowski

Saggo of Garuda Lakshmi
#178 Aug 22 2011 at 4:17 AM Rating: Default
Avatar
****
7,481 posts
Quote:
Spreadsheets will more than likely be just as accurate as any ad-hoc math we would do, if not more accurate.


I am not debating that, I just doubt the posters understanding of the game mechanics.
____________________________
HEY GOOGLE. **** OFF YOU. **** YOUR ******** SEARCH ENGINE IN ITS ******* ****** BINARY ***. ALL DAY LONG.

#179 Aug 22 2011 at 6:43 AM Rating: Good
Avatar
***
1,569 posts
Hyrist wrote:
RDM SMN SCH DNC BLU PLD PUP DRG

Not enough jobs to cover heals, really?
I'll admit that I'm looking at this from the 6-man party perspective. SMN is not going to be main healing a party just because of carby + favor. Blood Pact timers get in the way and /WHM doesn't help much until past a certain level due to lack of access to cures at the baseline (which means that rather than compliment a SMN's ability to heal, /WHM makes healing on SMN possible without the extended stops due to BP timers). BLU, SCH and RDM have what's needed to main heal (granted, BLU has to wait much longer to be able to main heal a group), which is complimented by /WHM. PUP's lacking control of the automaton (not to mention those internal cooldowns on casting) mean you're not seeing them main heal a party. PLD requires specific gear and/or being a tarutaru. DRG has to sub WHM in order to get those heals out, needs specific gear to increase the healing threshold for the wyvern and has to wait until 90 to be able to directly order the wyvern to let loose a healing breath (which means no, DRG is not main-healing FoV/GoV parties or colibri parties).
Quote:
No, the problem is with the playerbase not wanting to invite hybrid jobs over damage dealers, so they want to pigeonhole as few support jobs as possible onto a group so the DDs can focus ONLY on DD instead of actually having to use other aspects of their job.
You focus on damage dealing when you're DPS. You focus on healing when you're a healer. You focus on tanking when you're a tank. Multi-tasking is "admirable" and all, but that's what it always comes down to. Cures for emergencies are good, and even better when a mechanic is in place to facilitate them. That's not what I'm talking about, though. I'm talking about the fact that outside of WHM, there's no one else who can take over the main healer slot. Sadly, Final Fantasy as a whole has crammed its main healing potential into one job. That alone is why so many people are asking for RDM and SCH to get Cure V. I may not agree with it , but I do see what is causing the problem.
Quote:
The assumed shortage of healing classes is a fallacy. The game could half the jobs in the game could be primarily healers, yet there'd still be a shortage simply because the shortage lay in people interested in playing healing roles, particularly dedicated healing roles.
This is very true, but again, the issue is compounded when your main healer is boiled down to one job out of twenty.

You're right, though. At the risk of annoying the anti-WoW crowd, there's thirty specs in WoW, five of which are healing specs (Holy Paladins, Resto Druids, Resto Shaman, Holy Priests, Discipline Priests), but Healer is still one of the more difficult slots to fill (only thing harder to fill is tank). My point is that you don't have to have a Holy Paladin, or a Disc Priest, or a Resto Shaman. Any of them can be the healer in a group, and all heal at equivalent capacity. That's not what we have in FFXI. It's pretty much WHM and the jobs that could possibly "support" it in combat, and might be able to cover for one if the content is "easy" enough.

Hyrist expects the masses to overlook a job's lacking damage because of the extra heals. And as I've mentioned over and over again, it's been tried and it fell flat on its face. You need not look further than RDM to see it (or if you want another example, Ret Paladins between the launch of Burning Crusade and the release of Sunwell Plateau).

Simply put, it's a "people" problem created by gameplay and group dynamics.

Edited, Aug 22nd 2011 9:10am by Ruisu
____________________________
Products of boredom: 1 2 3 4 5
Besieged
Hopes for FFXIV: Fencer | Red Mage
#180 Aug 22 2011 at 9:36 AM Rating: Good
***
3,059 posts
rdmcandie wrote:
I am not debating that, I just doubt the posters understanding of the game mechanics.
The same accusation has been levied at you many times.
____________________________
"And I'm prepared to passionately argue this point until nothing makes sense anymore. If that doesn't work, then the hours upon hours of whining will." -Red Mage Statscowski

Saggo of Garuda Lakshmi
#181 Aug 22 2011 at 9:44 AM Rating: Default
Avatar
****
4,770 posts
People get upset when I say that BLU is RDM v2,but it's true. BLU was created form the ground up to be that melee/mage caster. Some RDM's want to try and convince me that evne JP RDM's want to melee. I call b.s. on that. The majority of ALL RDM's don't want to melee. Notice I said the majority and their reasons are all different. My reasons are simple. I have BLU now and it does better damage, is more respected, and offers me a different role than typical RDM backline style which I like too. Some RDM's want to assume that because we get a single spell like Temper, that means SE is planning to move us up to the front lines in some capacity. Meanwhile smart RDM's point out we lack the gear and there is no plans to change that. Dumb RDM's argue we can do it already showing parses that pretend to make it self evident. I'm not attacking someone's playstyle here or preference, but it's just not realistic to expect SE or the player base to accept you. Other jobs like BLU do it better than us and are accepted in that slot by the majority. Most people believe in the hardest DD's+a few support, equally win. Any job that can't put out instant damage like NIN(tanking they do fine) or RDM falls short of a superb DD in the majority's eyes.

If my words aren't to be believed, think back to the earlier years back when our presence was required for enfeebling. Dispeling a crab sure pumped up the DD's DPS didn't it or removing shell off a target for the BLM's to nuke. Now RDM's primarily heal more than anything else. Temper and a str absorb spell isn't going to account for crappy gear choices and limited faith in us by the player base.
#182 Aug 22 2011 at 12:00 PM Rating: Excellent
Avatar
***
1,569 posts
ShadowedgeFFXI wrote:
People get upset when I say that BLU is RDM v2,but it's true. BLU was created from the ground up to be that melee/mage caster.
As a poor attempt to replace what could have been fixed and improved upon. Monster magic and a scimitar don't even begin to touch the magic fencer RDM is and should be.
Quote:
Some RDM's want to try and convince me that even JP RDM's want to melee. I call b.s. on that.
The Naguri Aka Madoushi (AKA 殴り赤魔道士, AKA Melee RDM) threads on the JP side of the offical forums beg to differ. Most of them ask for en-<enfeeble> and higher enspell damage. Some chime in asking for more WS access, others ask for gear. The suggestions and their requests are there, contrary to what you may want to believe.

Edited, Aug 22nd 2011 2:00pm by Ruisu
____________________________
Products of boredom: 1 2 3 4 5
Besieged
Hopes for FFXIV: Fencer | Red Mage
#183 Aug 22 2011 at 12:31 PM Rating: Excellent
Guru
Avatar
*****
10,679 posts
Quote:
The majority of ALL RDM's don't want to melee.


And this is where I ask how you might be aware of the activities and thoughts of all RDMs on any given server at any given time. Language barriers aside, forums don't even begin to tap into the majority opinion as some are unaware, don't care to post, or might even be afraid to. Yes, I'll admit I know RDMs from Fairy/Sylph who have no interest in meleeing, but I also know those who do. Ultimately, I strive for the option to be there and not get ridiculed into obscurity because some might be too lazy to gear for it, come to the realization they might've been wrong about its feasibility, or just want to be stubborn twats who want to pick fights with people they'll never play with just because.

Otherwise, the job's been sitting on a proverbial chicken and egg scenario when it comes to how people have played it over the years.
#184 Aug 22 2011 at 12:35 PM Rating: Decent
Avatar
****
4,354 posts
jlejeune wrote:
Being a healing class a primary healer doesn't automatically make.

Portions of the game are on easy mode, sure. But only portions, and only after immoderate accommodations.


Completely irrelevant.

In every instance in which it would not be 'easy mode', White Mage should be a required invite, or, the duty itself can be split between available classes.

What WHM has over every other class is burst healing. Endurance healing all the other listed classes above can assist with endurance healing situations, (Not to mention some other jobs, like Dancer, Blue Mage, and Puppetmaster can assist with burst healing as well.)

In an 18 man run:

Tank Party: WILL have a WHM.

Nuking Party: RDM + SCH can heal it fine without taking away from the party.

Melee Party: Dancer can cover most issues here, supplemental with DRG on healer wyvern if you're concerned, or have the PUP use Soulsoother.

All mage jobs can also cure across party if needed.

Rotate in and out your Cor and BRD in and out of party for buffs and you can technically have all 20 jobs in an 18 member alliance.


Any 6 man group can be covered by multiple combinations of the above listed jobs.

The problem is people don't WANT to. Not that they cant. Their whining because they want a single individual to shoulder the brunt of the work, therefore also the brunt of the blame if something goes wrong.

When it comes down to the argumetns for Cure V on SCH and RDM:
Melees want easymode play.

Mages want invite rate for less effort.


Neither are valid enough in my opinion to outweigh the benefits of enforcing a more varied support system, and actually forcing players to have to think about defense as well instead of just what's the best DPS combo for a specific situation.

The cure deficiency is an illusion, RDM and SCH do not need to be better healers. What they need is to be more defined in their specific roles, not grayed out further by reapplying the "Healer" stamp on their foreheads. Giving them Cure V before the former is achieved will solidify the latter.

Edited, Aug 22nd 2011 2:40pm by Hyrist
#185 Aug 22 2011 at 2:57 PM Rating: Good
***
3,059 posts
The offhand dismissal of irrelevancy ignores the fact that Cure IV is only sufficient in those easy portions of the game, and only just so. A spell that at best eeks out 500 HP isn't enough. A double attack on many NMs does that much, inside and out, let alone figuring the high-powered abilities and the insane ways they now get TP.

As it is, Cure IV barely cuts it as an endurance tool, let along as a reactive/burst cure. And then, RDM and SCH can't use a subjob to augment further. DNC/WHM gets 4 and all Waltzes. PUP/WHM gets 4 and a (sometimes brain dead) Auto. BLU gets 4 and Embrace. DRG gets 4 and wyvern. RDM gets 4 and... Waltz III? Healing Ruby? Ascension (which kills the timer on our only useful cure)? Not only is Cure IV barely sufficient, RDM and SCH get the short end of the stick.

Not only are we poor supplemental healers, we are supposed to be primary healers, capable of being a back-up healer should the WHM be unable to heal or a WHM can't be fielded for any given event.

That's really the crux of the argument, isn't it? Whether we should be primary healers? Whether you want us to be primary healers? People tend to forget or ignore that in our many incarnations in this game alone, we could suitably replace a WHM. Not augment, not support, not supplement, but replace. At greater risk and less efficiency, as it should be. This concept dates all the way back to FF 1. Endurance healing only is a relatively new concept wave. To say we're not deficient healers because paired with a SCH we can heal the nuking party is patently preposterous.

That's good game design. A "required" invite shouldn't be held by a single job, but a handful of jobs catering to various styles and efficiencies. WHM is the most powerful healer, the most efficient healer, the risk management healer. I want a WHM to many events. But there are times, many times, when my friends and I simply can't field a WHM, where we can't rely on theorycrafted situations of perfect setups or 18-man alliances with every job.

One could argue the times when Pink Mages where the better option, and we were, or when nuking and melee wasn't truly a legitimate role, which it often wasn't. But that's hardly the case now. The brute-force MP tools we had are open to WHMs and the playerbase knows it. Paradigms won't wildly shift back to ToAU days. RDM is still free to nuke or melee, or just plain old support.

Now, what's holding us back from melee is triggers, and issues with gear selection and WS availability, but it's a credible choice. The only thing holding us back on nuking is triggers, and even then we still do respectable damage. What's holding us back at healing is the innate tools we lack. A stark contrast to melee and nuking.

Cure V is simply the most obvious choice, and easiest to implement. It wouldn't reduce uniqueness as so feared, especially since Red Mage wasn't all that unique to begin with. It wouldn't detract from WHM, with its myriad amount of tools and spells now. It wouldn't enforce a Pink Mage view for either RDM or SCH. It wouldn't prevent players from building a melee playstyle, that several outspoken players here are so fond of.

But ultimately any reactive/burst spell would do. I rather like the idea of a Cure IV-like spell with an additional short but powerful regen.

Even melee enthusiasts understand that RDM has a concept to uphold and don't want SE straying, otherwise you all would level other hybrid-melee jobs and ignore RDM.





In short, it's a very real, and very relevant, situation. Cure IV barely covers the damage done by many NMs, Abyssea or no. RDM works feverishly to cover endurance curing, and still looses out on the tools all the other jobs enjoy. All the while, the job concept from games immemorial is that we're second best healer, possibly edged out only by SCH due to them lacking a martial side. We should not have to be paired with another job just to do ours. And ultimately, improving our healing side of the RDM trifecta won't reduce the effectiveness of the sides others enjoy, nuking or meleeing.

As it's been said, we're playing Final Fantasy, not just any generic MMO.
____________________________
"And I'm prepared to passionately argue this point until nothing makes sense anymore. If that doesn't work, then the hours upon hours of whining will." -Red Mage Statscowski

Saggo of Garuda Lakshmi
#186 Aug 22 2011 at 4:09 PM Rating: Decent
**
824 posts
Quote:
WHM has Cure V/VI with their fixed low enmity values for a very specific reason; if you're fighting something where you need that sort of sustained Cure horsepower, that's WHM territory. Plain and simple. WHM has one purpose in the game, and that's making people not die. If they were to outsource it to other jobs.. sure, WHM would still be a great healer, and would have some specific tricks to make it desireable, but the fact is that it would quickly be relegated to DRK/DRG/PUP/etc status; general purpose jobs with niche abilities for niche situations. It would steal much of WHM's thunder, and given that those DD jobs are still quite capable on their own terms, WHM is nigh useless outside of tossing cures at meatshields. Thus, no other job is going to be allowed to step on its toes. I mean, if RDM and SCH were granted Cure V, they would instantly ascend to WHM-level tank-healing power, and still retain all of their other considerable abilities; WHM would instantly be relegated to the backseat they rode in for most of the game's life, and we'd be right back to Colibri; and to that, I say no ******* thanks.

Just to be clear, the only reason any of you want Cure V is because of Abyssea, and seriously? That **** is over and done; it may still have most of the relevant gear at this point, but as time progresses, it's going to be just one more endgame event like Dynamis, Salvage, etc. Asking for major adjustments to game balance based on wanting to homogenize all 20 jobs into the 4-5 that are most efficient for one event is retarded, end of story.


TL;DR version: Greedy, greedy RDMs want to gut WHM (again) just so they can mainheal in Abyssea. Sad.
____________________________
rdmcandie wrote:
RDM can attain an almost static 50% reduction to recast time, SCH can over shoot this for a total of 60% reduction under Alacrity (provided you are wearing loafers and keeping dark weather on yourself)

rdmcandie wrote:
MACC is a joke, any job with access to mage gear can hit close the MACC cap on legion mobs, which is why my BRD/RDM can land slow/para/blind despite having only 150 skill (from /RDM.)
#187 Aug 22 2011 at 4:31 PM Rating: Good
***
3,059 posts
Yes. Role diversity is so very greedy.
____________________________
"And I'm prepared to passionately argue this point until nothing makes sense anymore. If that doesn't work, then the hours upon hours of whining will." -Red Mage Statscowski

Saggo of Garuda Lakshmi
#188 Aug 22 2011 at 4:55 PM Rating: Good
**
654 posts
jlejeune wrote:

That's good game design. A "required" invite shouldn't be held by a single job, but a handful of jobs catering to various styles and efficiencies.


But Cure 5 isn't the answer to that.

Adding Cure 5 to Rdm and Sch isn't catering to "various styles and efficiencies." It's just turning how those 2 jobs cure into White Mage -1.

Really, if you want Cure 5 just invite a white mage. Saying you can't find a white mage might of been a good example in 2006, but when you can level a job to 90 in under a week easily it's hardly fair to condemn 2 jobs style of play to be that of an inferior White Mage when you can just as easily get a real one with the click of a few buttons.

Ideally the solution to White Mage getting all the invite is actually to add more jobs that specialize in healing in new and unique ways. I mean FFXI has 1, maybe 2 healing specialists, while even WoW has 5. There certainly are possibilities out there for new and unique healing jobs.

Short of that not happening the next best solution is making other forms of Defense besides healing and tanking actually worth something, aka enfeebling. Really, I wouldn't mind enfeebles so insanely broken that SE couldn't give us Cure 5 since it would let us put Whm out of business, but they would actually have to create some meaningful enfeebles for that to happen first.

If that doesn't happen then specialized cures for each job would be more ideal then cure 5. Our biggest issue isn't as much as we need cure 5 as it is that we need another timer. Alternating C4 and C3 is just pathetic HPS compared to what other jobs can do and should be improved, but Cure 5 is a bit overkill for the issue and can really hamper the future potential of our enfeebles.

At last resort we should get Cure 5 over nothing, but at that point the devs are just being extremely lazy and encouraging homogenization of styles of play.


Edited, Aug 22nd 2011 6:57pm by SlashAnonymous
#189 Aug 22 2011 at 6:03 PM Rating: Decent
Avatar
***
1,569 posts
SlashAnonymous wrote:
Ideally the solution to White Mage getting all the invite is actually to add more jobs that specialize in healing in new and unique ways. I mean FFXI has 1, maybe 2 healing specialists, while even WoW has 5. There certainly are possibilities out there for new and unique healing jobs.
In the interest of working with what we have, the only real snag I can think of would be just how limited the current combat engine is. That's not counting staying within the FF theme when creating new approaches to healing.

I don't know if the game can handle a 85% HoT/15% burst healer, or a mitigation-based healer. ****, I don't even think the game would be able to handle "smart heals". Would be interesting, though, to see say SCH become a HoT-based healer when using Light Arts, introduce Green Mage and make it the mitigation-based healer, and so on.

Edited, Aug 22nd 2011 8:07pm by Ruisu
____________________________
Products of boredom: 1 2 3 4 5
Besieged
Hopes for FFXIV: Fencer | Red Mage
#190 Aug 22 2011 at 6:21 PM Rating: Excellent
**
654 posts
Well the biggest limitation off the top of my head is the set duration for ticks which kind of limits regen type spells in a small way.
#191 Aug 22 2011 at 6:46 PM Rating: Default
**
824 posts
Quote:
I don't know if the game can handle a 85% HoT/15% burst healer, or a mitigation-based healer. ****, I don't even think the game would be able to handle "smart heals". Would be interesting, though, to see say SCH become a HoT-based healer when using Light Arts, introduce Green Mage and make it the mitigation-based healer, and so on.


The game already has a damage mitigation specialist, it's called SCH.
____________________________
rdmcandie wrote:
RDM can attain an almost static 50% reduction to recast time, SCH can over shoot this for a total of 60% reduction under Alacrity (provided you are wearing loafers and keeping dark weather on yourself)

rdmcandie wrote:
MACC is a joke, any job with access to mage gear can hit close the MACC cap on legion mobs, which is why my BRD/RDM can land slow/para/blind despite having only 150 skill (from /RDM.)
#192 Aug 22 2011 at 6:58 PM Rating: Good
***
2,890 posts
SlashAnonymous wrote:
Well the biggest limitation off the top of my head is the set duration for ticks which kind of limits regen type spells in a small way.


And all Regen spells are Enhancing Magic not Healing Magic. This is very important when you consider RDM can get 50~80%+ bonus duration to enhancing spells cast on "other people". I've done this with Regen II, it works as advertised. Regen II simply isn't strong enough, Regen IV maybe, but not Regen II. It's also why I insist on any super HoT spell having its potency based on enhancing magic, this way it'll scale as you stack more of something we have tons of. At 80Hp/tick for 30s (10 tics) that is 800HP, very similar to Cure V. With a 80% bonus duration you get 18 tics or 1440HP but over 54s, slightly shorter then a full min. Even at 50Hp/itck for 500HP in 30s, with the same 80% bonus duration you get a 900HP heal over 54s. And while that's not enough to main heal someone, its certainly enough to reduce the casting of the main healer, or to take care of melee's and other non-tanks. Your still missing out on the huge AOE cures, but that is squarely in the territory of WHM and SCH. Although the ability to AOE our regen (to AOE all our enhancing spells) would allow you to do that some of the time, but not always.
____________________________
RoTZ: Complete DM: O
CoP: Complete AN: O
99 SAM, RDM, BLU, WAR, PLD, DRK

lolgaxe wrote:
Nothing in this game is impossible if you set yourself to the task of actually doing it. Even dumb people can only hold you back for so long.


Lucinus wrote:
when you're hefting something that deadly, you don't miss - mobs get the **** out of the way instead...
#193 Aug 22 2011 at 8:52 PM Rating: Decent
Avatar
****
7,481 posts
LyltiaofLakshmi wrote:
Quote:
WHM has Cure V/VI with their fixed low enmity values for a very specific reason; if you're fighting something where you need that sort of sustained Cure horsepower, that's WHM territory. Plain and simple. WHM has one purpose in the game, and that's making people not die. If they were to outsource it to other jobs.. sure, WHM would still be a great healer, and would have some specific tricks to make it desireable, but the fact is that it would quickly be relegated to DRK/DRG/PUP/etc status; general purpose jobs with niche abilities for niche situations. It would steal much of WHM's thunder, and given that those DD jobs are still quite capable on their own terms, WHM is nigh useless outside of tossing cures at meatshields. Thus, no other job is going to be allowed to step on its toes. I mean, if RDM and SCH were granted Cure V, they would instantly ascend to WHM-level tank-healing power, and still retain all of their other considerable abilities; WHM would instantly be relegated to the backseat they rode in for most of the game's life, and we'd be right back to Colibri; and to that, I say no @#%^ing thanks.

Just to be clear, the only reason any of you want Cure V is because of Abyssea, and seriously? That sh*t is over and done; it may still have most of the relevant gear at this point, but as time progresses, it's going to be just one more endgame event like Dynamis, Salvage, etc. Asking for major adjustments to game balance based on wanting to homogenize all 20 jobs into the 4-5 that are most efficient for one event is retarded, end of story.


TL;DR version: Greedy, greedy RDMs want to gut WHM (again) just so they can mainheal in Abyssea. Sad.


And the hierarchy of healing would change how? WHM has higher MP efficiency in their heals being able to cap with great ease @ +50%, WHM has the most MP efficient heals in the game with the Regen line, they have cureskin, they have the best barspells, protects, shells, they have all the -na's natively. While at the same time either benefiting from Fast Cast (that stacks with their generous amount of cure speed cast increase), Refresh, Convert from /RDM, or Fast Cast, MP cost Reduction (on all heals) secondary Curaga 4 (to go with their native version and the upcoming Curaga V), or -ga skins/blinks, and sublimation.

RDM nor SCH can not compare to that, and even with Cure 5 a RDM must chose between longer MP sustainability and greater support ability (from /SCH) or /WHM for all the required -na's while giving up on MP saving abilities, and aoe buffing.

WHM has and will always be the best healer, regardless of RDM and SCH getting cure 5 or not, because WHM is designed to do one thing well, and the others are not. WHM will be fine, unless of course you are basing your entire argument on EXP oriented groups in which case, why even waste your breath discussing an insignificant portion of the game.
____________________________
HEY GOOGLE. **** OFF YOU. **** YOUR ******** SEARCH ENGINE IN ITS ******* ****** BINARY ***. ALL DAY LONG.

#194 Aug 22 2011 at 9:33 PM Rating: Good
**
654 posts
Because Stona (and Viruna atm) is a required -na spell for most things?

Really, if you need to /whm as Rdm, then you shouldn't bring a Rdm for the job

Edited, Aug 22nd 2011 11:40pm by SlashAnonymous
#195 Aug 22 2011 at 10:27 PM Rating: Default
**
824 posts
Quote:
And the hierarchy of healing would change how?


WHM is not the preeminent healer because they can cure large amounts of damage at once, although that helps; it's because they can do so with low fixed-enmity spells, allowing them to do so much longer without their enmity reaching dangerous levels. Have you ever wondered why Cure IV gives such nasty amounts of enmity? It's because SE wants you to bring a WHM to fights where that much damage is flying around. If you give that to RDM and/or SCH, you take away the best thing WHM has going for it. Sure, WHM still has Afflatus, better cure potency (marginally, at this point), and cure cast; but that's it, while RDM still has their nukes, enfeebles, and melee capability, and SCH still has their nukes, metamagic, and buffs.

How does this not seem horribly imbalanced and unfair to WHM? How can you not see that this would make WHM the least desired of the jobs able to heal?

The RDM community as of late seems to have forgotten what their job is about, which is trading the single proficiency of a specialist for access to pretty much every proficiency the game has to offer at a decent level. You're not supposed to be able to deal damage on the level of a dedicated DD; you're not supposed to be able to mainheal a party against tough NMs; you're the guy who can leverage your considerable pool of abilities (more than any job in the game) to cover gaps as they appear.

Between all the ******** about melee and curing, I'm more and more convinced you guys have no understanding of game balance and just want to be able throw RDMs at everything and call it a day. (Not that you can't already.. which makes all the ******** even more /facepalm-inducing)
____________________________
rdmcandie wrote:
RDM can attain an almost static 50% reduction to recast time, SCH can over shoot this for a total of 60% reduction under Alacrity (provided you are wearing loafers and keeping dark weather on yourself)

rdmcandie wrote:
MACC is a joke, any job with access to mage gear can hit close the MACC cap on legion mobs, which is why my BRD/RDM can land slow/para/blind despite having only 150 skill (from /RDM.)
#196 Aug 22 2011 at 10:35 PM Rating: Default
Avatar
****
4,770 posts
Seriha wrote:
Quote:
The majority of ALL RDM's don't want to melee.


And this is where I ask how you might be aware of the activities and thoughts of all RDMs on any given server at any given time. Language barriers aside, forums don't even begin to tap into the majority opinion as some are unaware, don't care to post, or might even be afraid to. Yes, I'll admit I know RDMs from Fairy/Sylph who have no interest in meleeing, but I also know those who do. Ultimately, I strive for the option to be there and not get ridiculed into obscurity because some might be too lazy to gear for it, come to the realization they might've been wrong about its feasibility, or just want to be stubborn twats who want to pick fights with people they'll never play with just because.

Otherwise, the job's been sitting on a proverbial chicken and egg scenario when it comes to how people have played it over the years.


You and I both know there is no way to prove this statement to each others mutual satisfaction. I think my point that BLU took the hybrid mantle is more plausible than any forum testimonies. Think how many RDM's took up BLU and gave up on RDM melee long ago. I'd be willing to bet my life savings most RDM turned BLU hybrids don't care anymore about RDM melee. I can't even fathom why anyone would want to melee on RDM when BLU is our melee mode already. haste gear/ACC/STR/cool traits,enfeebs, buffs, cures, and sword play. Seriously, I know there are some differences between the 2 jobs, but look at how closely they mimic each other.

Both jobs have MP and very similar attributes while naked.(Don't give me crap about set point bonuses either)
Both jobs use swords.
Both jobs have cures, buffs, and enfeebling magics. (cure IV, dispel, sleeps, stoneksin etc)

Honestly I think some people just like to be difficult. The only major differences I see between RDM and BLU not counting gear is En-spell, Composure, and Convert. They both can cure, buff, enfeeble and sword fight. I'm trying to be serious here. Why should SE bring RDM to the front lines to do the same thing BLU already does?
#197 Aug 22 2011 at 11:29 PM Rating: Good
Guru
Avatar
*****
10,679 posts
I don't doubt that BLU, in part, is SE learning from their mistakes regarding RDM. However, I just don't subscribe to the belief that RDM's martial aspects are a lost cause when those "cool traits" can be emulated through MP use much like Temper is looking to. However, that's not the only thing that needs to be done, but what needs to be done isn't exactly reinventing the wheel, either.
#198 Aug 23 2011 at 2:11 AM Rating: Decent
Avatar
****
4,770 posts
Seriha wrote:
I don't doubt that BLU, in part, is SE learning from their mistakes regarding RDM. However, I just don't subscribe to the belief that RDM's martial aspects are a lost cause when those "cool traits" can be emulated through MP use much like Temper is looking to. However, that's not the only thing that needs to be done, but what needs to be done isn't exactly reinventing the wheel, either.


I wish we could argue these issues objectively on this forum. There are some people that are holding out for a miracle and I kinda feel sorry for them for not seeing that it's futile. I'm not even sure what you're asking for Serhia. You speak so vague like your fishing for rate ups. I don't believe anything is possible for RDM beyond soloing improvements for melee of course. It's not that SE can't do anything, it's just they can't do anything without ruining the balance. I don't care what anyone says on this forum. If RDM were to be equal to BLU in all the important ways, BLU's would be in less demand overall. RDM's could still backline, but BLU's hybriding nature would be diminished. I don't think many of the RDM's understand that. You would think we should know this considering we stole main healer away from WHM for quite a bit of time or even tanking better than PLD's on HNM. I like to see some serious discussion on how RDM would change the playing field for a lot of other jobs if they were ever pushed to the front by SE. I really believe that's the conversation we need to have first.

Despite all my previous statements on this forum, I'm more concerned about job balance than anything else. If you believe we have a balanced back-line right now, let me know. I don't agree, all I see is WHM,BLM, and SCH honestly. I see like 12-14 melee classes, a few misc(brd,cor,pup), and the rest back line. I'm really interested in how anyone could possibly say we aren't needed in back more. Or that RDM's move to the front wouldn't step on DNC or BLu's toes.
#199 Aug 23 2011 at 4:09 AM Rating: Decent
Avatar
****
7,481 posts

Quote:
WHM is not the preeminent healer because they can cure large amounts of damage at once, although that helps; it's because they can do so with low fixed-enmity spells, allowing them to do so much longer without their enmity reaching dangerous levels. Have you ever wondered why Cure IV gives such nasty amounts of enmity? It's because SE wants you to bring a WHM to fights where that much damage is flying around. If you give that to RDM and/or SCH, you take away the best thing WHM has going for it. Sure, WHM still has Afflatus, better cure potency (marginally, at this point), and cure cast; but that's it, while RDM still has their nukes, enfeebles, and melee capability, and SCH still has their nukes, metamagic, and buffs.


and this would change the Hierarchy of healing how?

Quote:

WHM still has Afflatus, better cure potency (marginally, at this point), and cure cast; but that's it


and native -na spells, cureskin, best barspells, best protect/shell, regen IV, Curaga 4 and 5. On top of this they can /RDM can have more MP longevity than a RDM, or they can /SCH and have more MP longevity then a RDM, and better MP savings tools than a SCH.

A RDM gets -na and -ra spells from WHM, thats it, -na and -ra spells, it has less MP durability, weaker heals, slower heals, less mitigation. Even with C5 this remains true, so again I ask, the game would change how? other than allowing groups who have only a RDM healer available a chance to succeed without needing to have someone level yet another job that they may or may not like to play.
____________________________
HEY GOOGLE. **** OFF YOU. **** YOUR ******** SEARCH ENGINE IN ITS ******* ****** BINARY ***. ALL DAY LONG.

#200 Aug 23 2011 at 8:11 AM Rating: Good
Guru
Avatar
*****
10,679 posts
It's not that I intend to be vague, but rather it'd be more like I'm repeating myself for the umpteenth time after a good number of years without SE really nibbling. I'll chirp on the OB as appropriate, but just like here you'll have some blindly on the Cure V train and nothing you say will change their mind despite SE themselves saying they'd like to look at alternatives first. Of the alternatives that exist now, people want to scratch tooth and nail against it because it might involve strategy shifts or inviting another mouth to feed with loot.

Regardless, if you're bored, I've babbled more on our martial "baby steps" here. It's a 5 month old post, though. Not much has changed, sure, but the general points should still remain.

Perhaps the only thing I didn't quite hint on was how I said RDMs could mirror BLU when it came to traits. As we both know, BLU can set Double Attack for 10%. Temper should hopefully be that and them some, with an MP cost on top. In the future, I wouldn't be surprised if BLU can get Crit traits, and in turn, so should we get a Crit spell. And while this risks agitating the cycle blues, I still believe any single-target buff should last at least 5 minutes before Composure and other bonuses. The cumulative MP cost should ultimately be what makes continued main healing or excessive nuking difficult if you're trying to maintain the buffs. Do that while addressing most, if not all of the points brought up in the link and we'll be in a better place before getting fancy with things like integrating debuffs into melee itself and other things we could utilize regardless of position in the party.

Edited, Aug 23rd 2011 10:12am by Seriha
#201 Aug 23 2011 at 10:59 AM Rating: Decent
Avatar
****
4,354 posts
Quote:
And the hierarchy of healing would change how?


You want party role availability, I want job invite variance. If you make it so the player base has the choice to make the simplest, dumbest combination available and exclude the more powerful curing for a stronger support job, they will, every time hands down.

I'll make this flat out plain for you: If Temper is a party cast, and RDM got Cure V, you can kiss WHM's party slot goodbye a wide chunk current content, regardless on how much of a better healer WHM is.

This isn't so much a problem with 'who's the better cure' as 'who's the better overall support' and if you give the other mage jobs cure V you will break WHM because in most other circumstances the bells and whistles WHM gets to it's healing is not only unnecessary, in come cases (Cure VI) It's too costly to use regularly.

So no, the more I argue this, and the more update notes I see, the more adamant I am against RDMs and SCHs getting Cure V as it stands right now. RDMs and SCH should not be competing for the solo healer slot. The slot itself is a pox against mages as causes a neglect of hybrids and pigeonholes jobs that offer a lot more than simple healing to picked and judged upon by the desire to have as fewest people covering support and recovery as possible.

In my opinion, the concept of a single healer should die. It's fictitious in every situation aside from the 'easy' content that is fine the way it is.

Every event of difficulty typically has two or more heal-capable jobs of various type. In which case instead of saying "main" and "support" healing as everyone says, healing more or less could be categorized between "Burst" and "Endurance" healing.

RDM and SCH, the job premise in how they are constructed from the ground up, work BEST as endurance healing. If you give them burst healing on top of that their other contributions will overshadow WHM in everything but the most difficult of situations. Players tend to go bare minimum in terms of healing in favor of more damage and RDM and SCH can contribute to that (Sch is going to get a huge boost to that at 99 due to being able to sub RDM and get haste.)

Put flatly, it dosen't matter how good WHM is at curing at this point. If RDM or SCH can 'do the job' on their own they will get forced into that position and WHM will be find itself excluded again due to overkill and not enough other offensive support. Every job that can cure besides WHM has something holding them back to make sure this isn't the case. It's by design. And I've seen the positive effects on the player base. We're seeing more of other jobs together.

I'm fine for making SCH and RDM better at endurance healing, give RDM Regen III and IV and give Sch a "Helix" type cure. Do not give them burst healing. There are other jobs right now that can do that, should be doing that, and should be invited because they can contribute on that end, rather than be ignored because their damage output isn't the best compared to a job that ONLY deals damage.

SE is re-balancing the jobs keeping both specialists and hybrids in mind. And right now I'm in support of what I'm seeing. I'd rather see them give RDM and SCH something more attuned to their specific styles of play than give them a simple fix that can be potentially very toxic to their efforts to make each job worthwhile on their own merits, rather than by competing directly with others. There should be no fear for a RDM and WHM to be in a party together. Or a SCH and WHM, or a DNC and RDM, or a any other support combination that really makes Cure V on SCH and RDM unnecessary.

Right now, you're telling me they shouldn't be grouped together like that, and that's where we'll never agree.
Reply To Thread

Colors Smileys Quote OriginalQuote Checked Help

 

Recent Visitors: 19 All times are in CST
Anonymous Guests (19)