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#52 Jul 18 2011 at 11:50 AM Rating: Good
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The only thing that was holding Whm back in the first place at 75 was their lack of accuracy. I'm pretty sure that's no longer an issue now with our higher combat skills. They'll just have to eat sushi instead of pizza.

And Brd? Well the only thing we really have over Bard now are enspells. Their TP set consists of either pieces we wear or pieces that are better. WS sets, they blow us out of the water and the ability to augment Hetacomb did not help that argument.

At 75 our big advantage that boosted us to the playing field was the joyeuse. Now every job can grab their own equivalent of the joyeuse and for most jobs the weapon isn't even that great.
#53 Jul 18 2011 at 12:13 PM Rating: Decent
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Ok then. I'll pass that along the group.

Still. There's little to dissuade someone from going in there and getting their floors done. The monster difficulty with a level 90 team is laughable, even with the harder monster types.

Get it done man.

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I mean really, out-DD'd by BRD and WHM? In case you haven't heard, Abyssea's over, man.


AH HAHAHAHAAHAHAH AHAHAH HA HAAAA... that was a good one.

Oh, wait, you were serious? *laughs harder.*

Tell that to Sobek Camp, or every other possible bottle neck. Or how about the trade macro spammers at spawn nms? Abyssea may be complete, but it'll likely never be over. Abyssea is the new Dynamis, it'll be around for years after it's content will be considered 'outdated'.

Edited, Jul 18th 2011 2:18pm by Hyrist
#54 Jul 18 2011 at 12:33 PM Rating: Default
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Tell that to Sobek Camp, or every other possible bottle neck. Or how about the trade macro spammers at spawn nms? Abyssea may be complete, but it'll likely never be over. Abyssea is the new Dynamis, it'll be around for years after it's content will be considered 'outdated'.


It's over in the sense that it was the primary endgame focus for the majority of the community; everything's been figured out, it's just an exercise in farming things now. Of course we'll all be in Abyssea for some time to come, but my point is that people need to stop using Abyssean job performance as the baseline for their comparisons. Sure, BRD can pull some sick numbers in Abyssea.. but so can every other job, so who cares? People need to stop and realize it for what it is; just another event where some jobs are more useful than others, and not get completely bent out of shape that X job isn't as useful as Y job, or that since X job isn't useful in Abyssea, it sucks and needs to be buffed. I'd think that SE's recent announcements regarding the future direction of the game would make it abundantly clear that you're all getting worked up over midgame content; that, and look at how much gear was obsoleted by Abyssea.. we have 9 more levels to go and haven't even seen the real endgame content yet, what makes you think everything in Abyssea is going to stay relevant?

As for Sobek camp, who cares? I've been farming Colorful Abyssites in Misareaux for the past 2 weeks for Colorless Souls, and I've been averaging 1-2 Molted Peiste Skins per hour, to the point where they're going to waste because VNMs @#%^ing suck... and that's single-target killing stuff and doing my own chests. There's certainly no reason to ever camp Gukumatz again, as far as I'm concerned.

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At 75 our big advantage that boosted us to the playing field was the joyeuse. Now every job can grab their own equivalent of the joyeuse and for most jobs the weapon isn't even that great.


And now we have Almace... and if my own experience getting a Joyeuse back in 2006 is even halfway indicative of how difficult it was to obtain, Almace is, if anything, easier to get.

Edited, Jul 18th 2011 2:39pm by LyltiaofLakshmi
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rdmcandie wrote:
RDM can attain an almost static 50% reduction to recast time, SCH can over shoot this for a total of 60% reduction under Alacrity (provided you are wearing loafers and keeping dark weather on yourself)

rdmcandie wrote:
MACC is a joke, any job with access to mage gear can hit close the MACC cap on legion mobs, which is why my BRD/RDM can land slow/para/blind despite having only 150 skill (from /RDM.)
#55 Jul 18 2011 at 12:56 PM Rating: Good
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I got my Joyeuse with a Samurai tank...

Charby is not hard or time consuming.
#56 Jul 18 2011 at 1:03 PM Rating: Decent
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SlashAnonymous wrote:
I got my Joyeuse with a Samurai tank...

Charby is not hard or time consuming.

Got mine with a THF tank, personally.

And even if it is easier to get, using Almace as the model for melee progress is like saying "it's okay! We get Excalibur!" It's just not so readily obtainable that it makes a reasonable example for the validity of RDM melee past 75.
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#57 Jul 18 2011 at 1:16 PM Rating: Default
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I got my Joyeuse with a Samurai tank...

Charby is not hard or time consuming.


Neither is Almace! And Samurai tank in 2006 would've required a lot of help on the support end... I don't wanna hear about how easy Charybdis is now, of course it is.

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And even if it is easier to get, using Almace as the model for melee progress is like saying "it's okay! We get Excalibur!" It's just not so readily obtainable that it makes a reasonable example for the validity of RDM melee past 75.


Excal takes 150mil or 6 months farming Dynamis 5 days a week; Almace takes 0 gil (unless you buy pops to speed it up; maybe 10mil at most if you're in a hurry) and about 20-30 hours for all of the trials. Saying Almace isn't readily obtainable is laughable enough; comparing it to Excalibur is just @#%^ing stupid.

Like I've said so many times before, how many of you got your Duelist's Chapeau in your first month after joining a Dynamis LS back in the day? Yeah, not very many I'm sure; and Almace is so beyond D.Chapeau in terms of value... why does everyone still think Empyreans are hard or time consuming >.>

Edited, Jul 18th 2011 3:22pm by LyltiaofLakshmi
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rdmcandie wrote:
RDM can attain an almost static 50% reduction to recast time, SCH can over shoot this for a total of 60% reduction under Alacrity (provided you are wearing loafers and keeping dark weather on yourself)

rdmcandie wrote:
MACC is a joke, any job with access to mage gear can hit close the MACC cap on legion mobs, which is why my BRD/RDM can land slow/para/blind despite having only 150 skill (from /RDM.)
#58 Jul 18 2011 at 1:36 PM Rating: Decent
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LyltiaofLakshmi wrote:
Quote:
And even if it is easier to get, using Almace as the model for melee progress is like saying "it's okay! We get Excalibur!" It's just not so readily obtainable that it makes a reasonable example for the validity of RDM melee past 75.


Excal takes 150mil or 6 months farming Dynamis 5 days a week; Almace takes 0 gil (unless you buy pops to speed it up; maybe 10mil at most if you're in a hurry) and about 20-30 hours for all of the trials. Saying Almace isn't readily obtainable is laughable enough; comparing it to Excalibur is just @#%^ing stupid.

Like I've said so many times before, how many of you got your Duelist's Chapeau in your first month after joining a Dynamis LS back in the day? Yeah, not very many I'm sure; and Almace is so beyond D.Chapeau in terms of value... why does everyone still think Empyreans are hard or time consuming >.>

Edited, Jul 18th 2011 3:22pm by LyltiaofLakshmi
What's stupid is dichotomizing levels of obtainability. Almace may still be a great deal easier to obtain than Excalibur, but until everyone's sporting one and popping off Chant du Cygne in parties as easy as putting on socks, I remain doubtful of your claim. And as easy as it is to obtain, Joyeuse is still easier. But, that's beside the point.

The point of the comparison is as follows: 1) despite relaxed requirements, Almace remains on the far end of obtainable melee weaponry, and, due to it's (lack of) presence, is not a powerful example of the state or RDM melee equipment. Four years ago, you would not have said RDM melee was okay simply because the job could eventually get Morrigan's Robe, would you?

2) The devs have historically had a way of attaching RDM to symbolic pieces of gear. Thus far they have given us access to a few endgame swords, which means nothing since our presence on said weapons simply speaks to an image, an aesthetic befitting RDM. It doesn't say much to count the endgame items that we can equip, it's more accurate to examine all the gear and weapons in between (Auction House items, drops from lesser NMs/quests/events), to honestly portray RDM melee.

And frankly, melee promotion for the job is sketchier now than it was before the cap raise.
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#59 Jul 18 2011 at 1:42 PM Rating: Decent
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Even without jumping on to the EMP train, BRD only out DD's RDM because it has its own unique buffs. Put a RDM and a BRD in the same group and both will be parsing about equal. WHM only out DD's a RDM because it has access to more current weapons (easy access) as RDM was left off Daggers, and their WS slightly out shines our because it is 7 hit vs 6 hit.

Even then the gap between WHM and RDM is so small it boarders on mundane, and requires the WHM to give up nearly every form of MP endurance to achieve, a RDM can go SS, RR, GH sub nin or war and still have Refresh 2 and Convert. WHM can put those atma's on but if not /NIN or /WAR they won't even be on the same playing field, and if they sub those their MP durability takes a huge **** shit all over the place, unless they are spamming Mystic Boon, in which case RDM will pull ahead by using a Damaging WS.


You all argue the versatility of RDM then **** on it because a WHM in a pure DD role out parses us, when they have to sacrifice nearly everything of their core job to do so. Yet a RDM can still safely buff others, heal others, nuke for mb's or straight nuke, without a majo impact on their DD output, and without having to /heal or worry about MP durability.

Christ do you guys even know what you want?
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#60 Jul 18 2011 at 1:50 PM Rating: Default
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Almace may still be a great deal easier to obtain than Excalibur, but until everyone's sporting one and popping off Chant du Cygne in parties as easy as putting on socks, I remain doubtful of your claim.


You remain doubtful because the playerbase isn't swimming in Almaces? That's some faulty logic, because there's many more factors involved in that statistic than simply how obtainable Almace is. As evidence of this, I point you to the overall number of Empyreans obtained across all servers, and particularly that of the Kannagi, which happens to share the exact same trials as Almace. Funny how when you add Kannagi and Almace together, it is far and away the path with the most completed Empyreans? Perhaps the fact that most people opt for Kannagi over Almace might have something to do with it, or the fact that most RDMs just don't ever bother meleeing in the first place?

Flawed conclusions are not a reason to remain doubtful, they are merely an excuse.

Quote:
The point of the comparison is as follows: 1) despite relaxed requirements, Almace remains on the far end of obtainable melee weaponry, and, due to it's (lack of) presence, is not a powerful example of the state or RDM melee equipment. Four years ago, you would not have said RDM melee was okay simply because the job could eventually get Morrigan's Robe, would you?


If 20-30 hours is too taxing on you to obtain the strongest sword in the game for RDM, well, I don't know how you managed to accomplish anything before Abyssea... Almace is just as powerful as it's going to be, regardless of how many people own one.

And again with the WTF comparisons.. Morrigan's Robe to Almace? What the **** who do you know that got Morrigan's Robe in 3 weeks of Salvage?

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2) The devs have historically had a way of attaching RDM to symbolic pieces of gear. Thus far they have given us access to a few endgame swords, which means nothing since our presence on said weapons simply speaks to an image, an aesthetic befitting RDM. It doesn't say much to count the endgame items that we can equip, it's more accurate to examine all the gear and weapons in between (Auction House items, drops from lesser NMs/quests/events), to honestly portray RDM melee.


So tired of this **** If you're gonna wear AH gear on any job, you're gonna be mediocre, even for heavy DDs, period, end of story. Your entire train of thought on this assumes that melee RDMs are mouthbreathers incapable of playing the game much further beyond bidding at the AH; and despite all the evidence in various forums supporting this, I choose to believe better.

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And frankly, melee promotion for the job is sketchier now than it was before the cap raise.


...clearly no idea what you're talking about.
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rdmcandie wrote:
RDM can attain an almost static 50% reduction to recast time, SCH can over shoot this for a total of 60% reduction under Alacrity (provided you are wearing loafers and keeping dark weather on yourself)

rdmcandie wrote:
MACC is a joke, any job with access to mage gear can hit close the MACC cap on legion mobs, which is why my BRD/RDM can land slow/para/blind despite having only 150 skill (from /RDM.)
#61 Jul 18 2011 at 2:12 PM Rating: Decent
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Your entire train of thought on this assumes that melee RDMs are mouthbreathers incapable of playing the game much further beyond bidding at the AH


Um a lot of the gear RDM uses to melee in is bought from the AH. A few notable items being Dusk/+1 hands, Dusk/+1 feet, Calamenec Trousers, Keen Ring. Pretty much the entirety of our WS sets.

Granted there are a lot of items a RDM should go after (Goliard, Goading Belt, Alamace (or Twi Knife), K2-4 or DA+10 (depends on atma choices), Suppa, Brutal, Atheling, Raja's Ring, Brisk Mask.

All relatively easy to get, but **** I still see RDM's melee in mage gear so really its pretty common to see gimp be seen as the standard.
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#62 Jul 18 2011 at 2:14 PM Rating: Decent
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Almalieque wrote:
That's not "plenty of reasons", but one, "aesthetics". If you believe the player base is more aesthetic than practical, you're sadly mistaken. You should visit our other RDM thread where RDM is claimed to be "mostly useless" because it has a 3:5 kill ratio on certain mobs.
You'd be surprised. Seeing as I've personally witnessed the pre-reqs for this so-called hybrid apocalypse (hybrid classes that were stuck to heals or buffing given the option to be melee capable if specced/geared for it), only to see said apocalypse never come to be, I'll disagree with you. You had a few people who stayed away from those classes because they didn't want to be heal and buffbots for endgame finally level those classes because said changes opened possibilities that did not exist before. Aside from that, not much of a change.

Choice and possibilities are a good thing.

Edited, Jul 18th 2011 4:19pm by Ruisu
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#63 Jul 18 2011 at 2:19 PM Rating: Default
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Um a lot of the gear RDM uses to melee in is bought from the AH. A few notable items being Dusk/+1 hands, Dusk/+1 feet, Calamenec Trousers, Keen Ring. Pretty much the entirety of our WS sets.


Yeah I know, moreso just pointing out how ridiculous it is to assume that any RDM that is halfway serious about meleeing would have zero access to 'endgame' gear like Zelus, Goading, etc. =P

(Because finding a MNK and a WHM and a brew is hard, amirite?)
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rdmcandie wrote:
RDM can attain an almost static 50% reduction to recast time, SCH can over shoot this for a total of 60% reduction under Alacrity (provided you are wearing loafers and keeping dark weather on yourself)

rdmcandie wrote:
MACC is a joke, any job with access to mage gear can hit close the MACC cap on legion mobs, which is why my BRD/RDM can land slow/para/blind despite having only 150 skill (from /RDM.)
#64 Jul 18 2011 at 3:02 PM Rating: Good
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rdmcandie wrote:
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Your entire train of thought on this assumes that melee RDMs are mouthbreathers incapable of playing the game much further beyond bidding at the AH


Um a lot of the gear RDM uses to melee in is bought from the AH. A few notable items being Dusk/+1 hands, Dusk/+1 feet, Calamenec Trousers, Keen Ring. Pretty much the entirety of our WS sets.



What are you using for your Dex build WS?
#65 Jul 18 2011 at 3:10 PM Rating: Decent
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No I agree, any RDM that is semi serious should be looking into attaining the pretty easily obtained items that are available. However most RDM's would prefer to **** and moan and expect an SE handout. While my 80% number is likely not entirely accurate when comparing against DD who give a @#%^, Ive on numerous occasions been top of the parse as RDM (all be it against not as geared DD). **** I have posted parses here from abyssea that show just that and that is when I had no access to any atma's at all.

Fact: Most players in this game are not geared very well
Fact: Most players in this game do not eat food

While RDM might not stack up as well to equally minded gear nazis, a well geared melee RDM is still going to be on par or better then the majority of this game. While in the small % of well geared food eating players it is not that good, the overwhelming majority of this game is not well geared and food eating.

A RDM that actually cares to be a strong DD will preform close to or above the majority of DD in this game.

When all is said and done however it doesn't matter because the stigma is RDM melee is sh*t terrible, because it isn't a top contender in the top geared/food eating %. The "regular" folks assume that a RDM with great gear, eating meat is still going to be worse then a WAR who is using full AF+2 when the difference is actually fairly minimal.

This thread is a testament to that, you have several people whining they can't out DD a pimp WHM, a WHM who has to sacrifice much much more to attain that, then a RDM. Said WHM is not useful in the role the job is meant to play, yet a RDM is still parsing close to them while near infintely able to debuff,buff,nuke,heal as needed.

In the end it is evident that players like Alma, Hyrist, Shadow, Sae, Ser, will never be truly satisfied with the jobs performance at any level, because either they want to argue for versatility, or damage. RDM is a competent melee, it could use some upgrades in certain slots, (namely riding us of Dusk +1 requirements) and access to EX Weaponskills, but overly it is not that bad off, and loses very little to be able to do what it does.

Sure a well geared WHM can take a well geared RDM on the melee parse, but that RDM is going to be offering more to the group in way of utility in the end. If you can't see this, then you are blind, and as pathetic as the majority of the game who think RDM is terrible DD because it isn't a top teir DD. It is sightly behind where it was at 75, and comparison to WHM is stupid, because a WHM gives up everything else it does, to be able to top a RDM.


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What are you using for your Dex build WS?


LOL DEX build. Gear Attack, and only attack. Dex was cool when we couldn't cap ddex for crits, and didn't have the ACC to land all 6 on Evis. Attack gear in WS + Meat. If you doing it any other way, you doing it wrong.




Edited, Jul 18th 2011 5:11pm by rdmcandie
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#66 Jul 18 2011 at 3:14 PM Rating: Decent
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Clarification: At 75 what WERE you building for Dex?
#67 Jul 18 2011 at 3:21 PM Rating: Decent
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@ 75 I didn't gear for DEX much at all, because I generally subbed WAR or BLU (depending on mob and if healing breeze was of more utility then me getting zerk) and used Vorpal, if I was /NIN Then Id gear for DEX in slots that the amount of ATK gained was weaker then the amount of accuracy and cutting the DDEX. Such as ring slots, (2 x 5 DEX rings at the time was about the best you could do as it offered 10Dex towards ddex as well as 5 ACC.)

But now, its all about capping or getting as close as you can to the pdif cap.

Edited, Jul 18th 2011 5:24pm by rdmcandie
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#68 Jul 18 2011 at 3:24 PM Rating: Decent
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In the end it is evident that players like Alma, Hyrist, Shadow, Sae, Ser, will never be truly satisfied with the jobs performance at any level, because either they want to argue for versatility, or damage.


I prefer it more to 'staying thirsty' but honestly, in this section, makes a Tall Order in the Manifesto I do not beleive they can meet, with how their track record is with making RDM stingy.

Just like any other player in this game, I'm constnatly looking to improve myelf, and I'm constnatly looking for SE to make updates and improvements to my favorite job class.


Also, what do you plan to do outside Abyssea when you're no longer caping dDex? Cause the majoirty of my days are not spent in Abyssea yet. And, likely, I'll be on Blue Mage inside it unless I'm in there for kicks/brews. (*takes picture of the jaw drop*)


I was challenged to a 75 parse and when I explained my current deffiency to WS gear (I mainly have attack pieces, lacking sea torques and gorgets, etc.) They told me to not bother until I had a decent 75 WS set.

So I'm mulling over a old 75 evisceration set.

Edited, Jul 18th 2011 5:26pm by Hyrist
#69 Jul 18 2011 at 3:29 PM Rating: Decent
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Same set up. Voidwatch, WoE, and the new Dyna bosses are about the only areas where we see a need to increase our dex and acc for evis. But for those im typically /blm, simply because my melee utility as a RDM is not as good as my support utility, considering MP is not infinite there, and my Cure 4's and refresh cycles are highly relevant.
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#70 Jul 18 2011 at 3:35 PM Rating: Good
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It doesn't really matter if RDM becomes some damage powerhouse, to be frank. The only way it could possibly matter is if the gimpiest gimp RDM was comparable to an Ukon WAR, which would cause a bandwagon shift to using RDM as DD for everything (until it got nerfed a week later). Short of that, you have heals and DDs don't, therefore you have an incentive to be pushed hard toward a support role. That is all the playerbase will see, so any damage buffs don't really matter outside of lowman play, because RDM won't ever be equal in damage output to an equally-geared DD (I don't doubt a pimped Almace RDM could stomp your average pickup DD if they tried), so that point is pretty moot.

The only way RDM can justify a move to the frontline is an ability that enhances the role they were invited for (enhancing/enfeebling based on the manifesto) being dependent on having TP and/or your weapon drawn. I wouldn't get my hopes up, though, since SE hasn't indicated anything about doing so.
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#71 Jul 18 2011 at 3:39 PM Rating: Good
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Lower levels of WoE is still consitered in my "OK" areas to melee, because honestly, it's a race against the clock and at that point, all damage you can push out is worthwhile. Sleeps and curing is often abundant in my group as we've an overage of hybrids.

Still, if we're pushing "Just Attack" at that point, aside from the 75 gear I'll keep some of what I've got. (plenty of easy AH attack gear for RDM, just not much of it has haste.) I'll do a more right comparison however when I'm further along in gear/weaponry and we get Gain Dex/Str, which may be enough on its own.

Quote:
The only way RDM can justify a move to the frontline is an ability that enhances the role they were invited for (enhancing/enfeebling based on the manifesto) being dependent on having TP and/or your weapon drawn. I wouldn't get my hopes up, though, since SE hasn't indicated anything about doing so.


Honestly, I've ceased to care.

I put it this way. If SE fills the order they say about making us better buffers, than whatever melee buffs spells we receive can assist us as well, at better duration.

Any enfeebles that enhance physical performance does the same.

They only way they could mess it up is to skip both sections entirely, in which case it will likely fail to reach the vision they describe in both senses and RDM will sink further into being a joke job, only there to serve a role better suited by a bot. (Unless you're lowmanning, then, it's fun.)

I'm back to 'wait'(And this time waiting means working on my Blue Mage) and see mode.

Edited, Jul 18th 2011 5:48pm by Hyrist
#72 Jul 18 2011 at 3:56 PM Rating: Excellent
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Oh, I gave up this fight a while ago. This is just my inner-RDM-fan talking. I've already started leveling COR because I don't have much faith that SE will restore RDM to usefulness without making it a bore to play, even though I actually kind of like playing a buffer job.
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#73 Jul 18 2011 at 3:56 PM Rating: Decent
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Out of curosity Hyrist wht jobvs are they comparing this "real 75 WS" set too? WAR? DRG? MNK? SAM? jobs that all benefit from using STR mods to boost both WSM and Pdif, to go along with their near capped ACC and likely /WAR berserk.

RDM doesn't fit WS gear like other jobs exactly because it needs ATK, ACC, and WSM. With WSM being the least efficient of the bunch. (for multi hits) Infact pretty much any job with a non STR mod on their WS fits ATK/ACC/WSM in that order, because well ATK will do more for you in the end. (and chances are they are /NIN and not /WAR so have no berserk.)
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#74 Jul 18 2011 at 4:00 PM Rating: Decent
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I'm going to have to disagree with pretty much everything you just said; y'all need to stop feeling sorry for yourselves, seriously... we got plenty of amazing things from 75>90, including huge boosts to both our melee and nuking games.

I mean really, out-DD'd by BRD and WHM? In case you haven't heard, Abyssea's over, man.


We got absolutely nothing for our melee side from 75 to 90, the sole exception is CDC and only cause SE decided to stick us on the sword with PLD and WAR, they could of just as easily stuck us on the dagger and we'd be really screwed. We were conveniently left off the Magic Sword WS, really the WS that's dINTx2, 50% MND and magic based, that replenishs HP based on damage, we're left off that yet WAR and DRK get it.

Mage side is tier IV nukes, great but BLM got tier V as did SCH, so the relative balance didn't change, they both also got access to convert which was the one thing that really set RDM apart.

"Enfeebling" was ... addle? Could mention Break but BLM got that and at an earlier level and it doesn't work on any NM's, really just Bind V2. Saboteur used to be awesome, then SE nerfed the **** out of that on NM's, bye-bye 70%+ Slow II and 30% Defense Down.

"Enhancing" is ... wait ... let me think .. Refresh II! OMG we're back to the arguments of 2003/2004 and refresh <can I have it> spam. Thankfully the other mages got Refresh 1 so their not making us into their refresh whore.

Healing is ... absolutely nothing. A BLM/WHM is better support at 90 then a RDM, they have Sleepga I / II along with Aspir / Drain / Haste / -na / Curaga / Cure IV. Only thing their missing is Regen II, which is nice but not breaking in any sense.

And that about sums on RDM from 76 to 90.

Ask anyone around here, I'm a very big supporter of RDM melee, to the point that I merited 8/8 Enhancing Magic to make my enspells stronger and more accurate. I also went 8/8 Elemental magic once the upped the cap because contrary to what some people think, I actually do enjoy playing the mage side and blowing stuff up while laughing in god-like mirth. But I'm not gonna lie here, RDM as a job is serious hurting because it has nothing a WHM/RDM or BLM/RDM or even SCH/RDM can't do better. Heck BRD/WHM's start surpass us now that MP's no longer an issue. I'm the main RDM in my shell, and while I came to events exclusively as RDM in the beginning, once we got really good at smashing NM's I started coming BLU because RDM just wasn't needed. Sometimes when we're farming Sobek or other moderate difficulty NM I'll come RDM/NIN and mix it up a bit, this is more cause on such days we're really relaxed and people come on their off jobs / builds.

Anyhow don't want to rant, but RDM is in no way shape or form good right now. SE has basically wrote us out of the game on purpose, all because they didn't want to see a RDM/NIN making videos of himself soloing Briarus / Sobek / Apandamek and Azdaja.

Edited, Jul 18th 2011 10:05pm by saevellakshmi
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#75 Jul 18 2011 at 4:10 PM Rating: Decent
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Anyhow don't want to rant, but RDM is in no way shape or form good right now. SE has basically wrote us out of the game on purpose, all because they didn't want to see a RDM/NIN making videos of himself soloing Briarus / Sobek / Apandamek and Azdaja.


You mean all things a NIN/DNC or DNC/NIN can solo?

The reason SE is hesitant, is clearly for one reason, they have no idea what direction to push RDM in. Ever faction of the RDM player base is screaming for something different,some want enhancing, some enfeebling, some nuking, some healing, some melee. SE has to choose carefully which to buff, because if they buff them all you will see groups of RDM and nothing but RDM.

Edited, Jul 18th 2011 6:12pm by rdmcandie
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#76 Jul 18 2011 at 4:11 PM Rating: Good
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RDM doesn't fit WS gear like other jobs exactly because it needs ATK, ACC, and WSM. With WSM being the least efficient of the bunch. (for multi hits) Infact pretty much any job with a non STR mod on their WS fits ATK/ACC/WSM in that order, because well ATK will do more for you in the end. (and chances are they are /NIN and not /WAR so have no berserk.)


Sav, what's your take on this? Starfox had a similar approach in his STR building but I'm trying to figure out the balance specifically for a 75 Evisceration set. In the end I'm wondering if it's worth going out and grabbing a few choice pieces over what I have (Palwhan's feet over Ogres+1, contemplating turning ACP body into a mock Hauby, debating camping the Dobsonflys or grabbing the AKD hat for WS, etc.)

Also, worth taking the hit on Dex on Evisceration to use Alky's?
#77 Jul 18 2011 at 4:12 PM Rating: Decent
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RDM WS is the same as every other job's WS, you stack stats in the appropriate mannor. We have access to strong swords but no strong sword WS (sans Emp). We have access to two strong dagger WS but no strong daggers to go with them (@90). We have plenty of MAB, INT, MND and nuking gear, yet the WS that could benefit the most from it we don't have access to. For the WS's we do have access to we don't strong STR / DEX / Attack / Acc gear available to us in comparison to what something like DNC / BLU / BRD / THF get. We're not even in the same sport, much less the same league as WAR / DRK / DRG / SAM / MNK / PUP. I've pimped Death Blossom out as much as possible, same with Evisceration. Gear we should be on, like Alcide (MNK THF BST RNG NIN BLU COR PUP DNC) we're not. And thus we're stuck using level 75 era gear while the rest of the jobs have moved on to level 90 era super gear. Seriously if we just had access to Sang Blade then this would largely be a moot point, we would TP in haste gear and WS in our nuking set, problem solved.
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#78 Jul 18 2011 at 4:16 PM Rating: Decent
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We got absolutely nothing for our melee side from 75 to 90, the sole exception is CDC and only cause SE decided to stick us on the sword with PLD and WAR, they could of just as easily stuck us on the dagger and we'd be really screwed.


Absolutely nothing? So I guess reducing buff cycles on party members by half doesn't help your melee DoT at all, eh... Zelus Tiara doesn't make it (much) easier to hit gear haste cap... How about Atheling Mantle, pretty sure that's the go-to back piece for just about every DD, and RDM's on it... I seem to recall a Hachimaki with a **** ton of accuracy and sword skill... not to mention a variety of 75+ accessories like +7 rings, +3 earrings... more Enhancing skill to buff enspells... I could go on.

Absolutely nothing? Only you're intentionally ignoring things to support your preconceived conclusions.

Also, the way you make it sound, SE somehow insulted RDM by giving it access to Almace? I am confused by this, and you're not the first person to allude to it either. Explain.
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rdmcandie wrote:
RDM can attain an almost static 50% reduction to recast time, SCH can over shoot this for a total of 60% reduction under Alacrity (provided you are wearing loafers and keeping dark weather on yourself)

rdmcandie wrote:
MACC is a joke, any job with access to mage gear can hit close the MACC cap on legion mobs, which is why my BRD/RDM can land slow/para/blind despite having only 150 skill (from /RDM.)
#79 Jul 18 2011 at 4:17 PM Rating: Decent
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except I out WS my pretty well built SAng set up using 75 era ATK+ gear and evis, in and out of abyssea. SAngblade is good for brews, good in solo farms, thats about it, its hardly the write home paycheck we need as a WS.

Seriously Hyrist, gear for Attack thats it. In anything where you see **** WS's you are probably better off "mageing" it.
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#80 Jul 18 2011 at 4:19 PM Rating: Good
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Seriously if we just had access to Sang Blade then this would largely be a moot point, we would TP in haste gear and WS in our nuking set, problem solved.


One grace in this, as I see it, is what they talked about on Dark Knight.

Magic Weaponskills as they stand right now are laughable, but it seems as if they're going to be changing that if they're pushing this "Magical WS Damage" aspect for them.

So there is a (slim) chance of them making WS adjustments on our end as well.

But yea, I rolled my eyes at not having native Sanguine Blade.
#81 Jul 18 2011 at 4:23 PM Rating: Decent
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Sav, what's your take on this? Starfox had a similar approach in his STR building but I'm trying to figure out the balance specifically for a 75 Evisceration set. In the end I'm wondering if it's worth going out and grabbing a few choice pieces over what I have (Palwhan's feet over Ogres+1, contemplating turning ACP body into a mock Hauby, debating camping the Dobsonflys or grabbing the AKD hat for WS, etc.
Also, worth taking the hit on Dex on Evisceration to use Alky's?


Depends on the WS, but generally speaking we are a very low attack job, borderline 1.0 Ratio vs LV 95+ mobs like low and that is a place you never want to be. I've found +attack to work better then +DEX / STR on WS's like Evis / Vorpal / DeathBlossom. It gets a bit different with CDC, about 1 DEX to 3 attack. I'm currently building a CDC WS set but only after I'm finished with BLU as I should have a lv 85 Almace soonish.

And no for Evis / DCD don't use Alky's, but for Vorpal / DB their great. I'd hate to default back to Tarasque Mitts +1 (12 attack) but unless I find some nice +DEX piece stashed somewhere then that's what I'll have to use on RDM. Ogre +1 are for DB, but the new Rager Ledelsons (12 Attack 10 Acc) are a good choice for Evis / Vorpal / CDC, And Lithe Boots look good for CDC (6 DEX). I'll also use the +Sword skill head, I might make a MKD head for CDC, not sure yet. For Body you have good ole trusty AJ, its 18 attack 3 acc, heard to beat for a job as attack deprived as we are. I've tried ACP mini-hauby and I found that the AJ did more for DB / Evis / Vorpal. Legs are tumbler trunks for 18 attack and 5 DEX, really hard to heat that. Neck / Waist are the WS torques / belts, nearly impossible for other jobs to beat them, much less us. back is Atheling Mantle, one of the few new super DD pieces we can wear. Rings are good ole trusty Rajas + either the Atk +7 Acc +3 one, or a DEX+5 one for CDC. Earrings are ole Suppa / Brutal. That should just about cover it.
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lolgaxe wrote:
Nothing in this game is impossible if you set yourself to the task of actually doing it. Even dumb people can only hold you back for so long.


Lucinus wrote:
when you're hefting something that deadly, you don't miss - mobs get the **** out of the way instead...
#82 Jul 18 2011 at 4:32 PM Rating: Default
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Hyrist wrote:
Quote:
Seriously if we just had access to Sang Blade then this would largely be a moot point, we would TP in haste gear and WS in our nuking set, problem solved.


One grace in this, as I see it, is what they talked about on Dark Knight.

Magic Weaponskills as they stand right now are laughable, but it seems as if they're going to be changing that if they're pushing this "Magical WS Damage" aspect for them.

So there is a (slim) chance of them making WS adjustments on our end as well.

But yea, I rolled my eyes at not having native Sanguine Blade.


Yeah it was kinda a no-brainer. The WS screams RDM, its not crazy high damage but has an amazing bonus effect of keeping you alive. That and I can get 1100+ on it with BLU/NIN and no special atma's or MAB sword(RR/VV/Apoc) + Isador / STR Shamshir+2. RDM would be able to push much higher then that with all nuke gear we have. Literally Sang blade is a tier IV nuke in a WS.

And I'm loling hard at the idea of "shortening out cycles". How out of fckign touch with the game are you? Did anyone miss the point that we don't do cycles anymore cause ... their simply not needed. Now I love having a 11min haste and a crazy long enspell / phalanx / refresh, self buffing is awesome. But honest, its been almost three months since I last was needed to cast Refresh II / Haste / Phalanx II or well anything. It's just not needed. We're looking at doing VWNM's and those are crazy hard, but again SE screwed us by making they tier III / IV's resistant to basically everything. That and their drop rates are so bad that it makes salvage look generous.
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lolgaxe wrote:
Nothing in this game is impossible if you set yourself to the task of actually doing it. Even dumb people can only hold you back for so long.


Lucinus wrote:
when you're hefting something that deadly, you don't miss - mobs get the **** out of the way instead...
#83 Jul 18 2011 at 4:40 PM Rating: Decent
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And I'm loling hard at the idea of "shortening out cycles". How out of fckign touch with the game are you? Did anyone miss the point that we don't do cycles anymore cause ... their simply not needed. Now I love having a 11min haste and a crazy long enspell / phalanx / refresh, self buffing is awesome. But honest, its been almost three months since I last was needed to cast Refresh II / Haste / Phalanx II or well anything. It's just not needed


Well we can just extend that to the logical conclusion and say RDM isn't needed at the moment, period... but as I stated above, anyone who judges a job by what it offers to Abyssea is rather shortsighted. There will come a time in the near future where it will matter, count on it.

Anybody with any kind of sense realized long ago that main reason RDM couldn't keep up with melee DoT in standard PTs was because of their heavy casting load, not because of gear limitations. Lol right back at ya, son.
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rdmcandie wrote:
RDM can attain an almost static 50% reduction to recast time, SCH can over shoot this for a total of 60% reduction under Alacrity (provided you are wearing loafers and keeping dark weather on yourself)

rdmcandie wrote:
MACC is a joke, any job with access to mage gear can hit close the MACC cap on legion mobs, which is why my BRD/RDM can land slow/para/blind despite having only 150 skill (from /RDM.)
#84 Jul 18 2011 at 4:42 PM Rating: Good
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Also, the way you make it sound, SE somehow insulted RDM by giving it access to Almace? I am confused by this, and you're not the first person to allude to it either. Explain.


Probably the same reason the majority rolled our eyes at Sagasinger.

Giving us toys without pourpose is frustrating due to the stigma surrounding our melee aspects. Without a reason, a utility, to take the front lines with these prized posession, the items get looked at as just trophies to groups and we get tossed in bottom priority for all of it.

Makes it a touch more frustrating in each step in trying to push that performance. (And I like to push what I can do no matter what it is.)

Think how more desirable Sagasinger would be if it allowed us to rip high tier buffs of of difficult NMs, and we had a Utility that would allow us to actually be more useful in the front lines with it?

I probably would still not use it against Voidwatch NMs, but I could imagine quite nice to use against quite a few differn't Abyssean NMs.

And who knows, maybe they'll add more NMs that make it worthwhile to use the weapon on.

But aside from that... there's really no tie in to get these things.
#85 Jul 18 2011 at 5:18 PM Rating: Default
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Giving us toys without pourpose is frustrating due to the stigma surrounding our melee aspects. Without a reason, a utility, to take the front lines with these prized posession, the items get looked at as just trophies to groups and we get tossed in bottom priority for all of it.


The reason is to deal damage, and lots of it.. what more do you need? Our magical utility is unaffected by range, so it's not like you lose out by being in melee range, the damage is the added utility.

...this is also the part where i mention Enspell II, but stop because i'm laughing too hard, also maybe crying a little, who knows.
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rdmcandie wrote:
RDM can attain an almost static 50% reduction to recast time, SCH can over shoot this for a total of 60% reduction under Alacrity (provided you are wearing loafers and keeping dark weather on yourself)

rdmcandie wrote:
MACC is a joke, any job with access to mage gear can hit close the MACC cap on legion mobs, which is why my BRD/RDM can land slow/para/blind despite having only 150 skill (from /RDM.)
#86 Jul 18 2011 at 6:01 PM Rating: Decent
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rdmcandie wrote:
The reason SE is hesitant, is clearly for one reason, they have no idea what direction to push RDM in. Ever faction of the RDM player base is screaming for something different,some want enhancing, some enfeebling, some nuking, some healing, some melee. SE has to choose carefully which to buff, because if they buff them all you will see groups of RDM and nothing but RDM.
Can you please stop bringing up that already-debunked claim into the conversation? As I said, the hybrid apocalypse is a myth.
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#87 Jul 18 2011 at 7:40 PM Rating: Decent
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You say it's fair for a Whm to out DD us, RDD, because they have to sacrifice so much to do so, but let me ask you this?

Why don't we have the ability to sacrifice our MP to DD as well?

If a whm can out DD us by sacrificing a lot of it's MP then where is our retardedly expensive enspell then to act the same in return?

Yes, whm has to sacrifice convert and refresh to DD, but at the same time on the list of jobs you would invite to DD Rdm is pretty much lower then Whm if both are geared well.

It's like saying that Rangers back in 2004 should of out DDed everyone because they had to "pay" for their damage.

That's really only ultimately fair if everyone else has the same opportunity to sacrifice something to increase their damage as well.
#88 Jul 18 2011 at 7:57 PM Rating: Decent
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Ruisu wrote:
rdmcandie wrote:
The reason SE is hesitant, is clearly for one reason, they have no idea what direction to push RDM in. Ever faction of the RDM player base is screaming for something different,some want enhancing, some enfeebling, some nuking, some healing, some melee. SE has to choose carefully which to buff, because if they buff them all you will see groups of RDM and nothing but RDM.
Can you please stop bringing up that already-debunked claim into the conversation? As I said, the hybrid apocalypse is a myth.



Ya cus RDM/SCHx5 RDM/DRK couldn't kill Byakko every 2 hours......(@75 Cap)
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#89 Jul 18 2011 at 8:08 PM Rating: Decent
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Ya cus RDM/SCHx5 RDM/DRK couldn't kill Byakko every 2 hours......(@75 Cap)


Haha yeah I remember doing this, was a lot of fun!
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rdmcandie wrote:
RDM can attain an almost static 50% reduction to recast time, SCH can over shoot this for a total of 60% reduction under Alacrity (provided you are wearing loafers and keeping dark weather on yourself)

rdmcandie wrote:
MACC is a joke, any job with access to mage gear can hit close the MACC cap on legion mobs, which is why my BRD/RDM can land slow/para/blind despite having only 150 skill (from /RDM.)
#90 Jul 18 2011 at 9:06 PM Rating: Decent
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LyltiaofLakshmi wrote:
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Ya cus RDM/SCHx5 RDM/DRK couldn't kill Byakko every 2 hours......(@75 Cap)


Haha yeah I remember doing this, was a lot of fun!


ya and was when kitty pants were like 8mil on drop + 2 mil for the fight (+2mil if the guy didnt have a pop)
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#91 Jul 18 2011 at 10:17 PM Rating: Good
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saevellakshmi wrote:
Neck / Waist are the WS torques / belts, nearly impossible for other jobs to beat them, much less us.
Anguinus Belt beats the Ele. Belt by a margin, especially since we're att deprived.
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#92 Jul 18 2011 at 11:10 PM Rating: Decent
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Doesn't the Cuchulain's Belt beat that though except for when we need the accuracy?
#93 Jul 18 2011 at 11:34 PM Rating: Good
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SlashAnonymous wrote:
Doesn't the Cuchulain's Belt beat that though except for when we need the accuracy?
CDC maybe, not really on Evis, it's about even.
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#94 Jul 19 2011 at 9:50 AM Rating: Decent
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http://wiki.ffxiclopedia.org/wiki/Anguinus_Belt

If we needed the accuracy then yeah I'd agree, but 15 attack 1 DA vs 0.1 fTP, kinda depends. 3.45 fTP vs 3.35 comes out to 2.98% difference. I can see 15 attack and 1 DA doing that considering how low our attack is at. If your single wielding then its a 4.2% difference, belt would probably beat out 15 attack 1 DA then.

I've had my eyeball on that belt for awhile, might look to getting it, but I had planned on getting the Cuch belt once I had CDC. Inside abyssea though I'd want to stay with attack / fTP belt because your going to have so much DEX that 6 more isn't gonna add much vs a percentage like attack / fTP.




Edited, Jul 19th 2011 3:55pm by saevellakshmi
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lolgaxe wrote:
Nothing in this game is impossible if you set yourself to the task of actually doing it. Even dumb people can only hold you back for so long.


Lucinus wrote:
when you're hefting something that deadly, you don't miss - mobs get the **** out of the way instead...
#95 Jul 19 2011 at 2:26 PM Rating: Good
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The DA is easy enough to calculate. +1% chance to add +1 fTP per hand which averages about a +.02 fTP increase while dual wielding if my math is correct.

Looks like the rate down trolls are back, time for a round of green.
#96 Jul 19 2011 at 3:05 PM Rating: Decent
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For Gorget/Belts I assume really Soil/Snow covers most of our current needs?
#97 Jul 19 2011 at 7:13 PM Rating: Good
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saevellakshmi wrote:
http://wiki.ffxiclopedia.org/wiki/Anguinus_Belt

If we needed the accuracy then yeah I'd agree, but 15 attack 1 DA vs 0.1 fTP, kinda depends. 3.45 fTP vs 3.35 comes out to 2.98% difference. I can see 15 attack and 1 DA doing that considering how low our attack is at. If your single wielding then its a 4.2% difference, belt would probably beat out 15 attack 1 DA then.
I was just looking at dual-wielding when I figured Anguinus was better, really.
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#98 Jul 20 2011 at 9:13 AM Rating: Good
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*looks at OP. Skims entire thread*

Looks like I haven't missed anything. Good thing I told myself to level WAR and PLD.
#99 Jul 20 2011 at 1:29 PM Rating: Default
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saevellakshmi wrote:

The big feeling I get from SE is their afraid of enabling another Avesta. Of giving the job anything that could possibly make it stronger in any sense, out of fear that someone will find a way to abuse it to solo super NM's. And until this fear is removed, RDM will never ever ~ever~ get anything of substance. Avesta did some amazing things, but no single player hurt the job more then he did.


Why would they care at this point in the game? SE has tried to make things more and more casual. It's no longer an issue to solo things. BLU and NIN can solo a lot of the NM's in Abyssea, why is that allowed and not nerfed if SE is worried about extreme soloers? I think your mind is stuck in the past when RDM's served a real purpose, not like now.
#100 Jul 20 2011 at 1:56 PM Rating: Good
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What I see as a 'wtf' moment is if THF and BLU can both be given utilities that make their relatively low TP damage effect into more useful contributions, why can they not do so for Red Mage to encourage more availability for their martial side?
#101 Jul 20 2011 at 3:36 PM Rating: Decent
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Neither of those jobs are invited for DMG, they are invited to (THF) Tank and/or TH (proc Blue), (BLU) to Proc Yellow.

Thats it, they are no more useful then RDM, if BLU didn't have its own unique procs, it would be just as useless to people, If THF didn't have THF or the ability to TH, then it would not be used over DNC, or NIN as the preferred Evade tank.
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