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Why does an RDM cap Ice Magic merits?Follow

#202 Sep 08 2011 at 7:48 AM Rating: Decent
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Vlorsutes wrote:
In short, the reason your name was mentioned and not the others was because the side they've been arguing on is by and large the standard way that most Red Mages play the game (their merits are the "standard", what gear they advocate swapping in for debuffs is the "standard", and so on), whereas you are that other side of the argument, the one that is advocating doing things in a way other than what is considered the "standard". I must stress that I'm not saying that your method is wrong or anything like that, I'm just saying that how you do it is different than what is considered the norm, and as such the burden of proof rests with you, which is why I recommended you have empirical evidence.

I didn't mention the others only because the information they've been giving is that norm, and the evidence already exists and can likely be found in multiple areas, so they don't necessarily have to post that information (though in some cases in this topic alone they have anyway). If the sides were flip-flopped I'd be saying the same thing to RDD or Fyn or Lyltia or whoever was debating on the "against the norm" side.


I don't know where to start.

First, I don't even think you know what I'm arguing. I'm specifically referring to concept, not the norm or what should be the norm.

Second, you're basically saying that you don't think for yourself. If everyone follows a norm, you will automatically side with them because everyone else does it, regardless on how stupid, inaccurate or hypocritical it may be.
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#203 Sep 08 2011 at 8:49 AM Rating: Excellent
For your first point, I really don't know anymore. As much as the subject of the debate has bounced around, I've seriously lost track.

For your second point, that's not true at all. When I play any of my jobs, I aim for the norm at first, then tailor it to my personal play style if that in any way deviates from the "standard". Rarely do I ever have to deviate from the standard though just because of how solid that standard has come to be due to all the testing that people have done to come to that conclusion. However, should I go to a forum and say that I do "this" as opposed to "that", I'm going to bring evidence to support why I choose to go with my choice rather than the standard. I'm going to want to say why I choose to go with what I want rather than just say that I go with what I do and leave it at that.

That's why a lot of people, like RCD, have been "asking" for you to support your claims with numbers, because then maybe they can see why you believe what you do, and, if it's logical and reasonable, it might sway them, and if there's a mistake, they can point it out and perhaps sway you. In my opinion, having tangible evidence that you can lay out for people is the best way to go about a debate of any kind, and in a situation where someone is bringing forth something new, then the burden of proof lies on them to support their claims.
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#204 Sep 08 2011 at 10:18 AM Rating: Decent
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Vlorsutes wrote:
For your first point, I really don't know anymore. As much as the subject of the debate has bounced around, I've seriously lost track.


My argument is the concept that you can't max/min every stat for a job at any given time. You have to choose what you value to be important. That is based on what you're doing and how you're doing it. I was never arguing that meriting slow II outweighed 1 slow II with a mnd set. I argued that based on what I'm fighting and how I'm fighting, it's not necessary to get the job that I'm doing, done. You can't act like MND gear is so necessary and choose not to merit 8 mnd. You're doing nothing but picking and choosing, which is exactly what I'm doing.

Vlorsutes wrote:
Rarely do I ever have to deviate from the standard though just because of how solid that standard has come to be due to all the testing that people have done to come to that conclusion.


This is what I mean.. the "norm" changes a lot, not because of new stuff, but because someone decided to think outside the box and everyone jumped on the bandwagon. Unless you're doing the SAME exact thing the SAME exact way, your "norm" SHOULD be different.

Vlorsutes wrote:
That's why a lot of people, like RCD, have been "asking" for you to support your claims with numbers, because then maybe they can see why you believe what you do, and, if it's logical and reasonable, it might sway them, and if there's a mistake, they can point it out and perhaps sway you. In my opinion, having tangible evidence that you can lay out for people is the best way to go about a debate of any kind, and in a situation where someone is bringing forth something new, then the burden of proof lies on them to support their claims.


Once again, I WAS NEVER DEBATING Ice spikes and/or merited slow II was better than a mnd build. So there is no "swaying" or "evidence". I stated how I play, you either take it or leave it. If you want to compare it to how you play, then you go out test it. I have no interest in your numbers, because they are all "play-play" and people continuously use "math" to disprove each other. If it were accurate, that couldn't happen.
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#205 Sep 08 2011 at 10:37 AM Rating: Decent
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So in other words, the only reason you've been posting is to bait people into questioning the motives behind what appears to be a subpar playstyle so that you can post essays detailing how stupid they are for questioning you, while bragging about what an individual and outside-the-box thinker you are.

Sounds rather trollish to me.
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RDM can attain an almost static 50% reduction to recast time, SCH can over shoot this for a total of 60% reduction under Alacrity (provided you are wearing loafers and keeping dark weather on yourself)

rdmcandie wrote:
MACC is a joke, any job with access to mage gear can hit close the MACC cap on legion mobs, which is why my BRD/RDM can land slow/para/blind despite having only 150 skill (from /RDM.)
#206 Sep 08 2011 at 10:42 AM Rating: Decent
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But it is accurate, and the math the game uses supports that accuracy. You have offered nothing but eyeballing and guess work. All of which has been wrong. (outside the fact that people who force dump MP just to use convert on a timer are silly people)

I am still curious as to know your data on Ice Spikes Para effect being stronger than Para 1 and Para 2. I will make it very easy for you. Para 1 caps at about 20%, and para II around 40%, if you can show me data that has Ice spikes para procing more than 40% of the time I will be inclined to believe you. Personally I don't think it goes much higher than 15% but its been a while since I used Ice Spikes so have no parse data on hand to compare with.
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#207 Sep 08 2011 at 3:39 PM Rating: Excellent
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I'll have to reparse, but if you're talking capped out accuracy, I do beleive there was old data suggesting that Ice Spikes goes as far as 45% on cap. I forget where though so until I've got an accurate parser and do some data.

The biggest problem with gathering accurate data on Ice Spikes is that the effect of it landing is hidden. You don't know it's landed until the first time it procs the paralyze effect, so there's no way to adequately guess how often it is actually paralyzing.

And no, player tests don't work out too well in this case cause SE has been known to **** with the game mechanics in PVP to some degree. (might give a good base to guess though.)

But there are a lot of boasts trying to say that Ice Spikes is more potent than Paralyze II. And even I do have to state that Ice Spikes seems much more potent than 15% on average.

If you want I can hop into ballista and try to confirm it on a weekend, but likely not this one.
#208 Sep 08 2011 at 10:12 PM Rating: Decent
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Personally I don't really care. Im just making a point that Alma is talking out his ass, and when asked to back it up with numbers he can't and won't.

I don't even play, my buddy has my account I might hop on here and there to say hi to old friends but I don't even leave my MH most of the time. Im over FFXI, I could care less if Ice Spikes had a 100% para rate or 0%.

But I figure no one else around here stands up to spreading misinformation. Its like the breakfast club in here.

a brain, an athlete, a basket case, a princess and a criminal. Ill leave you to decide which is which.

But ya man go for it, im sure it will just be filled under irrelevant because Para II + Shock Spikes still mitigates more damage.
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#209 Sep 08 2011 at 10:19 PM Rating: Good
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You can't act like MND gear is so necessary and choose not to merit 8 mnd.
Swapping attribute gear takes about .1 seconds.
Swapping attribute merits takes about 1-2 days.

Attribute gear (MND, INT, STR, etc) is readily swappable...
It's fairly stupid to not take advantage of that kind of accessibility.

Attribute merits (MND, INT, STR, etc), on the other hand, should be applied with a "fulltime" philosophy.

Merits are broader and more relaxed:
I personally merited 5/5 VIT.
I have survivability merits, cuz I can always equip more DD if need be.


Some people merit 5/5 STR.
They have DD merits, cuz they can always equip more survivability if need be.


Gear isn't broad nor relaxed.
If you're casting a MND spell and not wearing all the MND gear you possibly can, you're dumb.

Edited, Sep 9th 2011 2:08am by IcookPizza
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#210 Sep 08 2011 at 10:44 PM Rating: Default
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If your casting a MND spell and not wearing all the MND gear you possibly can, you're dumb.


**** that if I am casting slow II or Para II Id eat the % and keep my DT/Fastcast .2 seconds is really not worth eating an extra bunch of damage, im sorry I don't agree with this, maybe some MND gear, but with belts/backs/rings/necks/legs/feet/hands spoken for with DT gear and head/body for fast cast, not much left for MND, that and my next WS comes sooner, its not worth the 1 + (* random as para) extra attack(s) saved every 45 attack rounds (on average).

Just saying, it is not dumb, its just being more efficient.
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#211 Sep 09 2011 at 12:05 AM Rating: Good
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If you're casting a MND spell and not wearing all the MND gear you possibly can, you're dumb.
I was trying to cover frontline and backline in one sentence.

I had about 14 free slots (out of 16) to "possibly" gear MND when backline, about 10-12 free slots when DD meleeing, and about 6-8 free slots when pdt-soloing.

I know I'm getting those numbers wrong (lol) but you get what I mean.

I guess the Captain-Obviousy-thing I was trying to say the first time was
Quote:
If you ignore the advantage of any of your equipment slots, you can and will die.
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#212 Sep 09 2011 at 12:10 AM Rating: Decent
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I would agree but.. you only have to wear the gear for a split second when you start casting, and when the spell fires. It's entirely possible to maintain capped DT- in Precast, and delay the Midcast gear to equip right before the spell fires. You just have to put some effort into it.

And it only really matters if you're bloodtanking anyway; if you're using shadows it's pretty moot to begin with.

Edited, Sep 9th 2011 2:13am by LyltiaofLakshmi
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rdmcandie wrote:
RDM can attain an almost static 50% reduction to recast time, SCH can over shoot this for a total of 60% reduction under Alacrity (provided you are wearing loafers and keeping dark weather on yourself)

rdmcandie wrote:
MACC is a joke, any job with access to mage gear can hit close the MACC cap on legion mobs, which is why my BRD/RDM can land slow/para/blind despite having only 150 skill (from /RDM.)
#213 Sep 09 2011 at 12:31 AM Rating: Default
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Ya but i wouldn't spend an hour configuring a melee XML built around 2 spells who's potency doesn't really scale well. In the end it doesn't make any real quantifiable difference.


(also just to note since im not a big editor of stuff ive already written after its been replied to: It is not 45 attack rounds, it is 15 attack rounds over 45 seconds, which is still a long time.)

In the end its not really worth my time to write extensive macros for a marginal decrease in damage received, its not optimal, but really not worth the effort. Ill concede you would have a longer life expectancy, although marginally. Fast Cast gear works for me as it gives up to a 3% increase to my damage, and thus kills mobs 3% faster, and in the end by rights gives me 3% increase to survivability.

But im not going to lie technically precasting/midcasting/endcasting proper sets is better, but for personal time efficiency, I can't be assed. =) Although I still wouldn't say its dumb not to, it is a colossal waste of time vs reward for something that is niche. it is more efficient to do it, but certainly is not dumb.

What is dumb is stamping your feet arguing that it is wrong, offering nothing to support why or why not, then proceeding to tell everyone that they are dumb because your way is obviously best because you have a BRD that sings wicked buffs like Madrigal and Minuet over March and um...March. Then claim that discredits your downfalls as a RDM, even though everything you claim is better because you have a BRD, is still not as good as it can be, with a BRD. That is dumb.
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#214 Sep 09 2011 at 5:11 AM Rating: Decent
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LyltiaofLakshmi wrote:
So in other words, the only reason you've been posting is to bait people into questioning the motives behind what appears to be a subpar playstyle so that you can post essays detailing how stupid they are for questioning you, while bragging about what an individual and outside-the-box thinker you are.

Sounds rather trollish to me.


Let me refresh your memory.

People started listing their merit selections.

I listed my merit selection.

People question my slow II merits, saying equipping mnd is better.

I responded that I equip mnd in mage mode, but for the mobs that I fight in melee mode along side a brd and elegy, that extra mnd isn't necessary.

I never once hinted that I was a special individual thinking outside the box. I said that's how the "norm" changes.

RDD wrote:
But it is accurate, and the math the game uses supports that accuracy. You have offered nothing but eyeballing and guess work. All of which has been wrong. (outside the fact that people who force dump MP just to use convert on a timer are silly people)


The ONLY thing that I have argued is that merited slow II and elegy is better than a non merited slow II and mnd gear.

All you have done is created an argument that was never existent, then claimed that I'm not supporting an argument that I never made..

RDD wrote:
I am still curious as to know your data on Ice Spikes Para effect being stronger than Para 1 and Para 2. I will make it very easy for you. Para 1 caps at about 20%, and para II around 40%, if you can show me data that has Ice spikes para procing more than 40% of the time I will be inclined to believe you. Personally I don't think it goes much higher than 15% but its been a while since I used Ice Spikes so have no parse data on hand to compare with.


My statement wasn't intended to make you believe anything. It was an observation of mine I don't care if you believe it or not. Paralyze is random.

RDD wrote:
Personally I don't really care. Im just making a point that Alma is talking out his ass, and when asked to back it up with numbers he can't and won't.


Read above two statements.

ICP wrote:
Gear isn't broad nor relaxed.
If you're casting a MND spell and not wearing all the MND gear trying to access all of the you possibly can, you're dumb.


MND is MND is MND is MND. It doesn't matter where it comes from. I'm willing to bet most RDMs don't even use gain mnd. So how can you come at me talking about not accessing mnd. It doesn't matter.



Edited, Sep 9th 2011 1:12pm by Almalieque
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#215 Sep 09 2011 at 7:26 AM Rating: Decent
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Almalieque wrote:

The ONLY thing that I have argued is that merited slow II and elegy is better than a non merited slow II and mnd gear.

Well no sh*t Sherlock. Carnage Elegy alone is better than a fully merited Slow II with capped dMND. That doesn't change the fact that you're still dumb for not making use of MND gear.

I still want to hear how much +MND you're using when you cast Slow II.

Edited, Sep 9th 2011 12:53pm by cidbahamut
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#216 Sep 09 2011 at 7:56 AM Rating: Good
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Almalieque wrote:
LyltiaofLakshmi wrote:
So in other words, the only reason you've been posting is to bait people into questioning the motives behind what appears to be a subpar playstyle so that you can post essays detailing how stupid they are for questioning you, while bragging about what an individual and outside-the-box thinker you are.

Sounds rather trollish to me.


Let me refresh your memory.

People started listing their merit selections.

I listed my merit selection.

People question my slow II merits, saying equipping mnd is better.

I responded that I equip mnd in mage mode, but for the mobs that I fight in melee mode along side a brd and elegy, that extra mnd isn't necessary.

I never once hinted that I was a special individual thinking outside the box. I said that's how the "norm" changes.

Actually they were questioning why your merits were such crap, particularly your T1 merits. Slow II only came up because it seems you don't gear swap while you melee because you're in "Melee mode", which essentially means you're intentionally being lazy/being a gimp about it.

No one really cares that you choose to do this, just realize if you make a testimony out of it, be prepared to be criticized over it.

Alma wrote:
The ONLY thing that I have argued is that merited slow II and elegy is better than a non merited slow II and mnd gear.

This doesn't matter at all. You should be putting on MND gear anyway to increase the potency of Slow II, regardless of Elegy.

If you don't want to, that's fine. Just don't say it doesn't mat--

Alma wrote:
MND is MND is MND is MND. It doesn't matter where it comes from. I'm willing to bet most RDMs don't even use gain mnd. So how can you come at me talking about not accessing mnd. It doesn't matter.

Smiley: oyvey
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#217 Sep 09 2011 at 8:01 AM Rating: Decent
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So I assume because you use gain mind you have a macro that swaps in max enhancing skill, actually no you probably don't considering your position on at least swapping head and body on all casts for fast cast items.

Edited, Sep 9th 2011 10:02am by rdmcandie
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#218 Sep 09 2011 at 8:38 AM Rating: Good
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Well, speaking personally, I most certainly don't worry over my mind.

I've lost that ages ago.
#219 Sep 09 2011 at 8:52 AM Rating: Good
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Well, speaking personally, I most certainly don't worry over my mind.

I've lost that ages ago.
Speaking of LSD.
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#220 Sep 09 2011 at 9:36 AM Rating: Good
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I wish.

Mostly just exhaustion. I don't sleep well, at all. And I tend to shy away from sleep aids as 1. They don't don't work on me STAYING asleep which is the problem, 2 I always feel groggy.

So by about this time in the week I'm loopy until after work today, which I go pass out for a while.
#221 Sep 09 2011 at 9:42 AM Rating: Decent
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you should smoke a bunch of weed.
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#222 Sep 09 2011 at 9:50 AM Rating: Decent
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1. Don't Smoke nor Drink (often.) Due to a seriously bad history of substance abuse in my family. That and with smoking, my lungs aren't so good to begin with.

2. Even when I did toke, it really didn't do much for me. Outside forum arguments I'm pretty laid back to begin with.

Xenith...

what server are you on these days?

Edited, Sep 9th 2011 11:51am by Hyrist
#223 Sep 09 2011 at 9:57 AM Rating: Decent
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Lakshmi.
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#224 Sep 09 2011 at 10:51 AM Rating: Good
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It's not that hard to carry MND gear these days. Hell, the only MND-specific pieces I have are rings and the JSE neck. Everything else doubles/triples in utility for something, especially when you look at AF3+1|2. Even if the boost is nomimal, MND is the easiest set to make with the smallest inv footprint. Not equipping MND, "melee" or "mage" mode, is just plain nonsensical.
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#225 Sep 09 2011 at 10:57 AM Rating: Good
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*baps Jlejeune*

Dude!

*passes a 'bowl' over to him.*

Dude...

Free your MIND!
#226 Sep 09 2011 at 11:20 AM Rating: Excellent
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No!

ok.
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#227 Sep 09 2011 at 1:59 PM Rating: Default
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People, can't you see that this no different than the anti-melee argument back in the day where people argued that if you didn't cast every single spell with staffs, then you were gimp. Swapping out to staffs would cause you to lose TP. So therefore melee is stupid. If you're fighting anything to where the staff bonuses actually matter, then you probably aren't meleeing.

Cid wrote:
Well no sh*t Sherlock. Carnage Elegy alone is better than a fully merited Slow II with capped dMND. That doesn't change the fact that you're still dumb for not making use of MND gear.

I still want to hear how much +MND you're using when you cast Slow II.


How does that make me dumb? If your primary concern is stroking your epeen on how much MND you can stack as opposed to the effect of slow on the mob, then yes, you're absolutely correct. You said yourself, that elegy alone is better than any merited slow II with mnd gear. Sooooooooo with such a bonus, dMND isn't any longer an issue for me and what I'm doing, if you're looking at the effect of slow of the mob. If it got to the point where that additional dMND mattered, I probably wouldn't be meleeing the mob.

As I said, I just equip as much MND as I can, to include gain mnd, in mage mode. I don't know how much that is, because it has been a while and I haven't logged on since I left Kuwait.

CARTH wrote:
Actually they were questioning why your merits were such crap, particularly your T1 merits. Slow II only came up because it seems you don't gear swap while you melee because you're in "Melee mode", which essentially means you're intentionally being lazy/being a gimp about it.

No one really cares that you choose to do this, just realize if you make a testimony out of it, be prepared to be criticized over it.


Funny.. People say that they were **** because I didn't merit convert, then later admit Convert was overkill and not necessary, just an easy way to regain MP. Yea, "total crap".....

I do gear swap in melee mode, I've only said that A MILLION TIMES already. Your failure to comprehend the conversation isn't at any fault of mine.

Carth wrote:
This doesn't matter at all. You should be putting on MND gear anyway to increase the potency of Slow II, regardless of Elegy.

If you don't want to, that's fine. Just don't say it doesn't mat--


That's d*mb. Just like with refresh.. you can't whine and complain about needing convert and then never refresh. Refreshing is like adding mnd to slow. It helps and benefits, but is it really necessary it after other bonuses such as refresh atmas/auto refresh and elegy? No, it's not.

You can pretend that you max out mnd all you want but answer me this. Did you max out your MND merits and cast gain mnd? I'm sure you didn't, so don't give me this **** about needing to cap mnd until you do it and with every other stat that you use. Oooops, that's physically impossible... hmmmm I guess you're in a dilemma.

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#228 Sep 09 2011 at 2:04 PM Rating: Default
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Alllllmmmaaaaa.

Just drop it. Not worth bickering about. Everyone's going to play the way they want. Everyone's going to have their own beliefs and opinions.

Less fury more furry!

*Calls in the Mithra dancers (with a Male for Alma)*
#229 Sep 09 2011 at 2:15 PM Rating: Decent
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Alma you're so silly.

Having a pocket Bard doesn't make it ok to be gimp make bad decisions.

You keep bringing up MND merits too, as if these are things you can switch out on every spell like you can with gear. That's silly. Besides, dMND caps at 75 which shouldn't be unreasonable to achieve without MND merits if you bother to gear yourself correctly. That's not even getting into the issue of stat merits not being tied to which job you're on, or the fact that those other stats provide more overall benefits than putting you closer to capping dMND while casting naked.
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#230 Sep 09 2011 at 2:39 PM Rating: Good
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Almalieque wrote:
People, can't you see that this no different than the anti-melee argument back in the day where people argued that if you didn't cast every single spell with staffs, then you were gimp.

As a person who had been arguing in those arguments, this is nothing like this. In fact I'd go as far to say its insulting and the very reason why RDMeleers are looked down upon.

I'm posting from a phone so the rest isn't worth replying too.
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#232 Sep 09 2011 at 3:48 PM Rating: Good
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Yeah cause stalking and Harassing is SUCH a smart thing to do.

Let's just drop it, seriously. It's a giant clutter to the forums.
#234 Sep 09 2011 at 4:21 PM Rating: Good
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MND is MND is MND is MND
Yes, yes, yes, and strongly disagree.
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#235 Sep 09 2011 at 4:31 PM Rating: Decent
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Wait everyone stop....
Hyrist passed the bowl like 10 posts ago....

... ... ... ...

Jeeeeesus, Jlejeune, how long have you been puffing that? Jiminy Cricket!
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#236 Sep 09 2011 at 9:27 PM Rating: Decent
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Alma its not that anyone really cares that you play the way you do. Its that you are trying to tout the way you play as optimal, when it is not optimal. It is mediocre, at best. **** your pocket BRD even gives you mediocre songs, your merits are mediocre, your disregarding of basic gear swaps that add damage and mitigation is proof of medicrocy.

Its not that your choice of play is invalid, its that your belief in it being optimal is incorrect. You have no supporting evidence that it is optimal (largely because none exists).

No one cares what you do with your time, but stop posting misleading and incorrect information as fact. Nothing you do is optimal, and you should stop claiming it to be as such.

Your next post should be this.

"I NOW know my way is not optimal, but this is what I do. I have been successful in my own way, but just know there are more efficient alternatives, but what I have here is at least a base building block to start with. There is a lot of room for tweaking and optimization so take this advice not as the best way to go, but as a starting point."
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#237 Sep 09 2011 at 9:34 PM Rating: Default
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Hyrist wrote:
Yeah cause stalking and Harassing is SUCH a smart thing to do.

Let's just drop it, seriously. It's a giant clutter to the forums.


If you don't like it post elsewhere, carrying on in one topic is not cluttering the forums at all, it is an extended discussion with 1 **** who is teaching us how to play mediocre RDM. Let him teach us how to disregard everything that is clearly better, so we can all play in mediocre land together.

Plus it amuses me and as long as I am amused I am not trolling you, I am sure Lyl is especially pleased by this.


Actually I am going to expand this:

Forums need threads like this. They thrive on them. They are beneficial in several ways.

1. They keep boards clean. The amount of stuff actually discussed in here could have been 3-4 threads, while it is lost under some personal sniping (on all sides including me, ok a lot by me.) There has been some good stuff discussed, we learned that it takes 45 seconds for a Slow II @ 5/5 to show a benefit over a 1/5 slow II. We learned Fast Cast and AFv3 can combine for an average (average spell load) 5% damage increase. We learned that /SCH is not always the best subjob, for all mages, so it can't be the best, but it is the most versatile. We learned that Convert is just a tool, use it when you need to.

2. They allow people to vent.
People like to vent, threads like this that are direct but indirect, as in we have decent discussions over a variety of points, for others to throw in additional things that bug them about this or that. It started with Convert, and Subjobs, it moved to merits, and then on to other stuff because people kept adding additional talking points. Lots of people have been discussing their points, and recommendations and has actually made for good discussion.

3. Entertainment.
=2 has seen much higher traffic, a lot of people have not even posted, they have just been watching the "drama" unfold, most probably ignore the numerical discussions and follow the quips and jabs. Threads like this provide a show, while at the same time a good discussion. I learned a good deal, and I don't even play, I crunched numbers on Slow, Fast Cast AFv3 because I was curious as to the worth/loss was after reading this. I was kind of surprised at the numbers. Its been a good thread and its provided knowledge, and entertainment.

Threads like these help keep forum communities going.


Edited, Sep 10th 2011 12:04am by rdmcandie

Edited, Sep 10th 2011 12:06am by rdmcandie
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#238 Sep 09 2011 at 11:42 PM Rating: Decent
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That's d*mb. Just like with refresh.. you can't whine and complain about needing convert and then never refresh.


What's really dumb is how you keep using this argument like it'll become correct if you say it often enough. One of the only things that might possibly be dumber is how I keep trying (in vain) to refute it.

Let's say that Convert gave you one million MP whenever you used it. Surely, that's more than enough MP for 10 minutes, right? Of course it is; you can't even possibly spend that much MP in 10 minutes. (Before some **** comes in and says SMN/RDM could do it with Astral Flow, shut up. :| ) Would you still be using Refresh after that? I somehow doubt it.

Now, let's "convert" that scenario back into reality. Convert doesn't give THAT much MP. But, it STILL gives me more than enough MP to the point where I don't need to use Refresh.

Simply put, in a MP-intensive scenario on my WHM where atmas alone aren't enough,
1) Refresh alone doesn't give me enough MP
2) Convert alone gives me more than enough
3) If I'm already getting more than enough, I don't need to expend further effort to get more MP

Ergo, YES, I *can* need Convert and not need Refresh.

Edited, Sep 10th 2011 7:58am by Fynlar
#239 Sep 10 2011 at 12:00 AM Rating: Default
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There is more to it than just that though. Healing is spammy as hell, its the same reason I have always put BLU's dead last on a refresh cycle. Refresh does not work well with spam, it is a spell that provides an MP buffer, when you are spamming it is not that great, or even useful. It takes 2.5 minutes for 150 MP, when you are spamming 100+ every few seconds, refresh is pretty useless.

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#240 Sep 10 2011 at 12:40 AM Rating: Good
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Threads like these help keep forum communities going.


You cross the line when you start saying you're going to spread this harassment bullsh*t into game, am I clear?

Unlike FFXI, you don't (need to)pay to be here. It's a privilege not a right. And while Alma needs to learn to drop it, you guys seriously need to learn to ignore her and stop fanning the flames. I've tried to change the tone and keep things light hearted, but it simply goes to far when it crosses the line into stalking and harassing people in game or anywhere outside the places you normally interact.

You can try to tell me that I can go someplace else but that logic works both ways. You don't have to read her post, you don't have to argue with her. And choosing to continue fighting on and on and on is trolling and flamebaitng

Rog made the same mistake thinking sniping and being crude can be offset by the amount of benefit he can contribute. You don't see them giving him any more chances, do you?

You can **** at each other on the forums until Vol locks it, I don't care all that much. But keep it contained here. You start stalking people you don't like and it's a harassment lawsuit waiting to happen. And I'm fairly sure the Zam network won't want to be caught up in it.

Some **** you don't even joke about.

Edited, Sep 10th 2011 2:42am by Hyrist
#241 Sep 10 2011 at 1:03 AM Rating: Decent
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Get off the soapbox Hyrist, it was all for the lulz.
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RDM can attain an almost static 50% reduction to recast time, SCH can over shoot this for a total of 60% reduction under Alacrity (provided you are wearing loafers and keeping dark weather on yourself)

rdmcandie wrote:
MACC is a joke, any job with access to mage gear can hit close the MACC cap on legion mobs, which is why my BRD/RDM can land slow/para/blind despite having only 150 skill (from /RDM.)
#242 Sep 10 2011 at 5:55 AM Rating: Decent
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There is more to it than just that though. Healing is spammy as hell, its the same reason I have always put BLU's dead last on a refresh cycle. Refresh does not work well with spam, it is a spell that provides an MP buffer, when you are spamming it is not that great, or even useful. It takes 2.5 minutes for 150 MP, when you are spamming 100+ every few seconds, refresh is pretty useless.


Actually it's just 110 MP per cast (or 140 if you bother to pack a Grapevine Cape around, which I totally would if I had one just for its name and what the name refers to), due to subtracting 40 to cast it.

But yeah, that's one of the reasons I don't bother regularly using it anymore on WHM/RDM and I've already mentioned it before, only for him to argue against that too (apparently, since I "don't have time" to cast Refresh, I also "shouldn't have time" to cast the things I subbed /RDM for, such as Sleeps and Dispels). I probably COULD get away with casting it if I really wanted to, but unnecessary risk for no benefit isn't something I like to make a habit of as a healer. As I've said, whenever I'm in a situation where I have to spam Cure 5/6, anything else I cast that isn't a Cure is a potential risk.

Figured I wouldn't bother bringing that point up again though; that's apparently a little too much for some people to handle. Right now I'll settle for attempting to dispel just one ridiculous notion at a time before moving on to the next
#243 Sep 10 2011 at 6:09 AM Rating: Default
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Cid wrote:
Having a pocket Bard doesn't make it ok to be gimp make bad decisions.


If I didn't have the mnd gear, the macros and never used either, then I would be gimp and/or making bad decisions. Since I do have the gear, the macros and use them, just not on stuff where it matters, you can not legitimately call me gimp or making "bad decisions".

Cid wrote:
You keep bringing up MND merits too, as if these are things you can switch out on every spell like you can with gear. That's silly. Besides, dMND caps at 75 which shouldn't be unreasonable to achieve without MND merits if you bother to gear yourself correctly. That's not even getting into the issue of stat merits not being tied to which job you're on, or the fact that those other stats provide more overall benefits than putting you closer to capping dMND while casting naked.


That's the point. You have to make decisions. You're acting like MND is any different from INT or STR. Do people change those merits? Are those players only playing one job? NO, but they still chose to merit a certain stat. So it makes no difference what stat you merit, no stat is universal as helpful for EVERY job.

If MND is such a big deal to you, then you would not only merit MND, but use gain mnd. Since you do neither, you're simply making a decision.

Carth wrote:
As a person who had been arguing in those arguments, this is nothing like this. In fact I'd go as far to say its insulting and the very reason why RDMeleers are looked down upon.

I'm posting from a phone so the rest isn't worth replying too.


As a person who was one of the few defending RDM melee, I can say it was exactly like this. Not only that, but the inv. argument. The argument was that they didn't have room to carry melee gear because of all of the other gear that they carried. I countered that they didn't need all 8 staves, full int, full mnd, etc. to fight lolcolibris. It's the same exact argument now.

Ly wrote:
Anybody know which server Alma plays on? I've got FRAPS, a spare character slot, and some free time.


If you were to see me online, 9/10 it's my brother and that wont tell you anything because he "borrows" gear from my other retired brother who had every single good drop gear.

Quote:
Alma its not that anyone really cares that you play the way you do. Its that you are trying to tout the way you play as optimal, when it is not optimal


I give you props for being persistent. You know good and well that my argument was never implying that what I was doing was optimal, but quite the opposite. The whole argument is that you don't NEED to carry your optimal gear for every single thing you do. You're basically killing a fly with a hammer, completely unnecessary. You know this, but are consistent and attempting to turn stuff into fictional arguments. Bravo.

ICP wrote:
...anyone know Alma's address? alrighti'llstop


You're going to come over to Iraq? I'll be waiting for you.. :)


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Almalieque wrote:

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#244 Sep 10 2011 at 6:15 AM Rating: Excellent
"For the lulz" or not, I don't want anyone making threats about going to someone else's server or worse to harass an individual. It's one thing to talk about their play style on the forums, but it's another matter entirely to even suggest that you'd do that sort of thing. I've been giving everyone a good deal of leniency in here, but comments like that are out of line.


Edited, Sep 10th 2011 8:18am by Vlorsutes
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#245 Sep 10 2011 at 7:33 AM Rating: Default
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I agree that is ridiculous, I assumed it was a joke. But not after saying for the lulz. Why do you care how he plays. It doesn't matter how he plays, what matters is spreading false information to people who ask questions. He could run around naked if he wanted to, but don't say it is optimal when it is not. I honestly though you were joking, but not anymore...thats absurd.
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#246 Sep 10 2011 at 8:04 AM Rating: Decent
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Almalieque wrote:

If I didn't have the mnd gear, the macros and never used either, then I would be gimp and/or making bad decisions. Since I do have the gear, the macros and use them, just not on stuff where it matters, you can not legitimately call me gimp or making "bad decisions".

Wait, so you have the gear but simply refuse to make use of it? That's even worse.

Almalieque wrote:

If MND is such a big deal to you, then you would not only merit MND, but use gain mnd. Since you do neither, you're simply making a decision.

*I* make use of GainMND thank you very much. No one is saying "yes you must increase MND to the exclusion of every other stat ever in all situations". We're saying "put on your **** MND build when you cast Slow, you lazy gimp". It's not about MND specifically, it is about gearing yourself properly.
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#247 Sep 10 2011 at 8:40 AM Rating: Decent
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Fynlar wrote:
Quote:
That's d*mb. Just like with refresh.. you can't whine and complain about needing convert and then never refresh.


What's really dumb is how you keep using this argument like it'll become correct if you say it often enough. One of the only things that might possibly be dumber is how I keep trying (in vain) to refute it.

Let's say that Convert gave you one million MP whenever you used it. Surely, that's more than enough MP for 10 minutes, right? Of course it is; you can't even possibly spend that much MP in 10 minutes. (Before some **** comes in and says SMN/RDM could do it with Astral Flow, shut up. :| ) Would you still be using Refresh after that? I somehow doubt it.

Now, let's "convert" that scenario back into reality. Convert doesn't give THAT much MP. But, it STILL gives me more than enough MP to the point where I don't need to use Refresh.

Simply put, in a MP-intensive scenario on my WHM where atmas alone aren't enough,
1) Refresh alone doesn't give me enough MP
2) Convert alone gives me more than enough
3) If I'm already getting more than enough, I don't need to expend further effort to get more MP

Ergo, YES, I *can* need Convert and not need Refresh.

Edited, Sep 10th 2011 7:58am by Fynlar



You're misunderstanding me. The fact that you can "need" convert and not "need" refresh supports my claim that you don't necessarily "need" anything that inherently benefits you.

VLo wrote:
"For the lulz" or not, I don't want anyone making threats about going to someone else's server or worse to harass an individual. It's one thing to talk about their play style on the forums, but it's another matter entirely to even suggest that you'd do that sort of thing. I've been giving everyone a good deal of leniency in here, but comments like that are out of line.


Trust me, I don't see them making it on post here in Iraq... but they can try.

Cid wrote:

Wait, so you have the gear but simply refuse to make use of it? That's even worse.


Pay attention. I'm not wearing the same gear in Mage Mode fighting something worth while as I do a not so worthwhile mob while melee. It's just not necessary.

Cid wrote:
*I* make use of GainMND thank you very much. No one is saying "yes you must increase MND to the exclusion of every other stat ever in all situations". We're saying "put on your **** MND build when you cast Slow, you lazy gimp". It's not about MND specifically, it is about gearing yourself properly.


That's the thing. I am. If I'm meleeing a "hard hitting" double attacking mob, I'm more concerned fast cast, haste and defense than I am mnd. MND is low on my priority, especially when I have a freakin brd.

That's not gimp, it's being situational aware. If you're using the same gear and every scenario, you simply fail.

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#248 Sep 10 2011 at 10:04 AM Rating: Decent
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You're misunderstanding me. The fact that you can "need" convert and not "need" refresh supports my claim that you don't necessarily "need" anything that inherently benefits you.


What I *need* is enough MP to keep adequate Cure5/6 spam going when even atmas aren't enough. Convert provides this, Refresh does not. Simple as that.

Your claims of what I do and do not "necessarily" need are completely irrelevant to the actual scenario. Convert gets the job done just fine on its own, so that's what I use. Really don't see how this is such a hard concept to grasp.
#249 Sep 10 2011 at 10:45 AM Rating: Default
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Trust me, I don't see them making it on post here in Iraq... but they can try.


I did my tours in Afghanistan, thanks, you can stop bringing it up every chance you possibly get, serving is a privilege and an honor, not some merit badge for you to be flashing at people on the internet constantly... and this doesn't even make sense within the context of what you're replying to anyway, you don't read very well do you? Good ol' eleven-alpha.

Quote:
"For the lulz" or not, I don't want anyone making threats about going to someone else's server or worse to harass an individual. It's one thing to talk about their play style on the forums, but it's another matter entirely to even suggest that you'd do that sort of thing.


You even **** at Alma yourself for preaching stupid **** without backing it up with numbers... I suppose offering to run a parse for it to give it some concrete data to back up its ridiculous claims is completely, totally out of line?

Honestly, look at my **** sig, do you really think I don't have better things to be doing with my FFXI time than simply harassing some forum-mouthbreather?

If anyone is to blame for how ridiculous this **** is getting Vlor, it's definitely you for letting it go on when you should've locked and banned the first time you decided to post. Y'know, instead of getting dragged into it. The part where you actually apologized to it was rather priceless, I suppose your boss gave you ****
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rdmcandie wrote:
RDM can attain an almost static 50% reduction to recast time, SCH can over shoot this for a total of 60% reduction under Alacrity (provided you are wearing loafers and keeping dark weather on yourself)

rdmcandie wrote:
MACC is a joke, any job with access to mage gear can hit close the MACC cap on legion mobs, which is why my BRD/RDM can land slow/para/blind despite having only 150 skill (from /RDM.)
#250 Sep 10 2011 at 10:53 AM Rating: Decent
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Fynlar wrote:
Quote:
You're misunderstanding me. The fact that you can "need" convert and not "need" refresh supports my claim that you don't necessarily "need" anything that inherently benefits you.


What I *need* is enough MP to keep adequate Cure5/6 spam going when even atmas aren't enough. Convert provides this, Refresh does not. Simple as that.

Your claims of what I do and do not "necessarily" need are completely irrelevant to the actual scenario. Convert gets the job done just fine on its own, so that's what I use. Really don't see how this is such a hard concept to grasp.


It's not a hard concept, we're talking about two different things now. I'm not saying that you do or don't need anything. I'm saying that if you're ever in the situation that you're describing, then you're supporting my argument.

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#251 Sep 10 2011 at 11:01 AM Rating: Decent
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I did my tours in Afghanistan, thanks, you can stop bringing it up every chance you possibly get, serving is a privilege and an honor, not some merit badge for you to be flashing at people on the internet constantly... and this doesn't even make sense within the context of what you're replying to anyway, you don't read very well do you? Good ol' eleven-alpha.


WTF?

They wanted my location, I gave it. WTFRU talking about? Admin said something about physical threats. I replied.. they are not likely to get in the gates. This is because of security... which means I'm safe and not concern of any Internet threats.

That was you that took stuff out of context.

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