Race for RedmageFollow

You're so full of BS. You've stated numerous times that you play RDM out of Abyssea. Even though it went from "useless" to the "best job", you've stated that you use it outside abyssea.

Our argument is your choice of words of labeling RDM "useless" INSIDE Abyssea. We want you to define "useless" and explain how RDM is useless. Simply not being the best isn't the same as "useless".

You simply ignore the clarification because you can't. You are a band wagoner so much so, that instead of admitting as such, you tried various arguments to justify it. In doing so, you keep digging yourself further and further in a hole, making false accusations to include BRDs, /whm, /rdm and over all game play.

All of this nonsense for what? You are a band wagoner, just man up, accept it and move on. RDM has plenty of uses in Abyssea. Just because people have access to haste, cure and refresh doesn't mean people will use them, because they aren't. When people shout for {Healing magic}, they are referring to WHM, RDM or SCH. You're simply complaining because RDM isn't the most desired like before, which makes you a band wagoner.

If you're specifically referring to how you play to save time, then you should say so as I asked you several times to differentiate between the two. In that case, that only makes RDM "useless" in how you play, not overall

Then you need to go back and re read this entire thread, I have stated numerous times why RDM is useless in abyssea. I have also stated why it is Useful in the small % of nonabyssean content that is actually relevant. (or possibly relevant in the future if SE continues to release augmented old gear. Which is why me and 2 MNK friends are activly clearing Salvage with me as RDM).

RDM offers nothing in abyssea that can not be achieved by subbing WHM. Enfeebles are redundant, T4 nukes are a drop in the bucket, and it can't reliably heal anything harder than Visions Teir 2 mobs on its own. It has nothing of value inside of abyssea and contributes nothing to a group, except the ability to hold extra pop items and/or prevent drops from going to the ground.

The only valid point you or hyrist have made is RDM is fun. Which I won't deny, I love running around smacking fodder mobs upside the face /NIN farming Dark Rings.

But the fact of the matter is, RDM offers absolutely nothing to a group, and other jobs are faster when playing alone. In an event where time management is everything that is the biggest factor in usefulness. Having to let a mob deaggro then reclaim in hopes of getting lucky on a 2/7 proc chance from a RDM is time consuming and bothersome. Sure I culd run out as RDM/WHM and heal my THF/NIN friend while we duo farm seals, or I an go on my BLM/WHM heal just as efficiently, and bring 4/7 procs.

As for RDM being desired, I think I have been over this enough through the years. Hell you even stole my line. I never played RDM in the "game friendly" way. I was either meleeing in groups, or soloing sh*t in sky (or lowman farmin Kity Pants with 4 other RDM's and a PLD.) I could care less of the position RDM held, because at the time RDM was the most useful job for how I played the game. Unfortunately it is now to slow FOR ME, and my friends. It is inadequate as a time efficient soloer, it is inadequate in as a time efficient group member, and that makes it mostly useless, in the current game where time is everything.

But since you don't read, or lack the ability to comprehend basic english (and the same things being said numerous times.)I don't know why I am wasting my time talking to you. I could honestly give a rats ass if you think that is bandwagoning. The two jobs I leveled were leveled for largely personal reasons, mostly because I was tired of leeching from my friends, living in an illusuion that I was being of assistance at all in Abyssea.

Furthermore I couldn't give 2 sh*ts what you or anyone else does or finds fun in this game. In fact it doesn't even matter how I play the game, regardless of how any of us choose to play, the game mechanics do not support RDM being practically functional in Abyssea. This is something we can't change no matter what sub we choose, or what gear we wear. The game design prevents RDM from being useful in abyssea, and in a game where abyssea is everything, and thus Time Efficiency is key, RDM is mostly useless (again mostly means largely or not quite completely useless.)


And I am now done responding to you because you lack any logic, or ability to form constructive arguments, concerns etc. and No, stamping your foot and screaming no no no bandwagoner, no no no isn't a constructive argument. which is why I haven't responded to anything you seem to think has been.


Edited, Jul 11th 2011 1:15pm by rdmcandie

I'm not. I'm saying you are very bad at articulating your argument.


So basically yes, the summary I gave was the definition you subscribe to.

The thing you so eagerly overlook is that it doesn't matter what role SE designed the jobs to fill because SE's intent is completely divergent from the game mechanics. Mastery comes not from the warm fuzzies of what some game designer intended, it is derived from the cold hard reality of what the game mechanics allow to be accomplished.

Once again, your failure to read isn't my problem.

Those two statements are saying the exact opposite. Your statement says that SE designed jobs to do certain things REGARDLESS of anything. That is implying that PLDs should be tanks in any situation. I'm arguing the exact opposite. My statement says that SE designed jobs to fulfill certain roles (to guarantee that a job is able to fulfill it) but prefers diversity. Which means, PLD is designed to be the tank, but promotes diversity upon other jobs to be able to tank.

I've stated numerous of times that what the job was designed to do and how the job is played are two completely different things. That is how it's possible to be the "master" of something but not the most desired. The most desired can/will change as the game change and people do different things. That doesn't have any effect on which job was designed to fulfill a role and vice versa. Just because people decide to chain weak VT mobs instead of heavy hitting IT+ shadow killing mobs, doesn't magically make NINs a "Master" of tanking. That's determined by the design of the job. How you play the game determines which job is best suited for the mission.

All you have done is proven my point.
I would love for you to try to explain how that was poorly articulated. What else could I have done?

I don't really get what all this is supposed to prove.

My LS has a couple guys that like RDM. They come out for our fights - some tough stuff too, mind you; up to heroes level 1 trophy NMs. They heal and they haste and they addle and they do whatever the hack it is that RDMs do. I'm usually too worried about BLM procs. But they do their job and nobody dies and we kill mobs and it's okay.

So what's the big deal here? It's a fine enough job in abyssea. Can get refresh atma and nuking atma and even curing atma if they want. Maybe it doesn't fit into the "perfect" 4-man seal farming proc setup, but for an LS that smokes through things, it gets the job done.

Not useless.

It's gunna be okay.

Hands off WHM's Cure V though :p

I think that endorsement isn't "Hey, look what RDM can do!", but "RDM isn't useless". There's a difference, something which the FFXI environment tends to forget. What was said there is exactly in line with what everyone else has been saying.

RDM can be used efficiently in Abyssea. It may not be the idea job for low-man to solo, but that doesn't justify the label "useless", which is what me and Hyrist have been arguing. It's not "uselss".

Edit: No one so far has been able to prove that RDM is uesless, only not the best.

Edited, Jul 11th 2011 11:22pm by Almalieque

If your definition is based on if it can be done without RDM, I would argue that has mostly been the case. The only thing I can think of that *needed* RDM was for chainspell. Just about everything else can be replicated one way or the other.



Assuming the right jobs are available. Not everyone has a WHM or SCH. If you just so happen to have a RDM, guess who's going to be placed in the healer position? You guessed it! The RDM.



And that is true for many jobs depending on what you're doing. That doesn't equate to be "useless". My LS would fight mobs that can be soloed by 4 people, that means at least 14 people are "useless" by your definition.

Just because it can be done without you, doesn't make you "useless". Not being able to get it done without you, makes you important. There's a difference.



Then you simply suck. When my LS farms, I enhance the outcome. Enough to make a big difference? Probably not, but the same can be said by any DD.

Well, do you not see the difference in the two statements?

1. SE designs a job for people to play it a certain way regardless of anything.

2. SE designs a job to ensure that at least one job is able to fulfill in a certain role, but promotes diversity.

I understand if you don't want to admit that you're wrong, but just do what RDC does and just ignore. You know, just like you did with my "Master" definition that you accused of being inaccurate.
Just don't act like I'm the problem.

WTF? How the?

Countered, Jul 11th 2011 6:17pm by Anonymous

Edited, Jul 11th 2011 6:19pm by IcookPizza

Can't understand your own posts?

a sexy feline that has a penis.

You are providing the role of a warm body.

What you are not providing is utility specific to a Red Mage.

You would bring the same utility or more likely superior utility by attending an event on another job if you have one leveled.

That is the problem.

I am quite sure his intellectual capacity for vocabulary, and a primitive understanding of basic English caused him to understand only 1/4 of the words you used. (sh*t mine stopped at 75%).

For the most part ya depending on how many RDM's were present at which point /NIN and cycling those spells for the resitance down or /BLU and spamming Headbutt, as well as opening skill chains was slighty more useful. Unless of course you and the other RDM's pooled your merits to optimize 2 spells each in which case backlining an doing your 2 spells was highly welcomed. (also depended on the mob)

I'll sacrifice proper English for clarity.

alma skipped school the day they took words meanings that started with C, that's why he is unaware that mostly and completely are two different things.

It's like arguing with the Berlin Wall, except less politcal... more final fantastical.

I am always stoned. I am Canadian after all.

and as an aside (and completely of topic ,if there is one any more) did you know that the Canadian military has has Gays in it for years and not once has it caused and issue. In fact the biggest issue regarding sexuality in the military was a highly respected MALE Colonel raping a bunch of WOMEN. Thats right Alma the only sexually related issue was Man on Woman, you can sleep soundly in your cot tonight knowing that the reversal of DADT won't affect you.

It's Always been my mantra. But now there are plenty of NM's that are on that fodder list as well.

I'm back to 'wait and see' mod. There's more juicy dats in the works so it means whatever they have for us this wave is beyond the concept stage and into the testing stage. Hopefully it won't take a full year this time for them to come around and actually release it, however.

You must have missed the days of school when they discussed words that started with "A" and "F", that's why you are unaware of the meaning "RDM isn't ANY FORM of useless", not mostly useless, not completely useless, not ANY FORM of useless. You can try to hang onto your back peddle if you want, but I've already acknowledged the difference of mostly and completely and countered that neither is true. You have yet countered.

Since you


Yes, like I said, it doesn't get any simpler than that. So, tell me exactly what part is confusing or misleading to you and we can work bit by bit. Simply saying "I don't understand any of it", is not only a lie, but a waste of my time to try find different ways to explain it if I don't even know which part is misleading you.

There's no "wall of text" in the 2 statements that I presented to you. So I ask again, what part of

"1. SE designs a job for people to play it a certain way regardless of anything.
VS
2. SE designs a job to ensure that at least one job is able to fulfill in a certain role, but promotes diversity."

is misleading to you?

No, we're not because I'll just ignore your question until you answer mine. I asked you first twice. You can't ignore my question twice and then expect me to play your game. Obviously you understood EXACTLY what I said, but instead of admitting you being wrong, you decide to start over by creating a condition where you think you can come out on top.

You either understood the statements or not. If you don't understand those statements, then there isn't any reason to continue with you because I don't know any other way to respond to you. So, either explain the confusion or accept the fact that you understand it.

That's nice to know, but that wasn't the question, so it's totally irrelevant.

The concern wasn't if I understood you correctly, but if you understood me correctly. You claimed that you couldn't understand my words. Whether or not you subscribe to one of the two isn't of any of my concern. So I ask yet again, which part of that don't you understand?

Trust me, I will answer your question, but you still haven't answered mine.

You said the following:

"You lack clarity.

I'm no longer certain of what we're even arguing anymore, such is your cavalcade of verbosity and penchant for obfuscation.

State your terms with extreme brevity that we might begin our cycle of parry and riposte anew. "

Nothing in there was about context. I could have said China is an Asian country. There is no context involved, but that doesn't make it verbose, obfuscated and without clarity. A statement without context doesn't default to the claims that you made. I simply asked you to justify your claim by telling me which part of those statements are verbose, obfuscated and without clarity. I'm using YOUR words, not mine.

Edit:

You're full of BS: you also said



That is the exact context.... Even if context were the problem, you didn't specify what needed to be placed in context.

Edited, Jul 12th 2011 6:51pm by Almalieque

No,let's start with you answering my question so I can answer your question.

You made very distinct claims about my statements. I want you to specifically point out the parts in my statements that support your claim.

I'm not sure if you saw my edit, but you clearly know the context. Not only that, if you are able to say that you don't subscribe to any of those statements, then you must be able to understand them first in order to compare and make that conclusion.

So, are you going to answer the question or are you going to admit that you were just talking trash? It would be much easier if you just admit that you were just talking trash.