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#252 Jul 11 2011 at 10:47 AM Rating: Decent
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RDC wrote:

I don't even know if he knows what his position is (or what he is arguing against, they both still think i don't use my RDM for christ sakes.)


You're so full of BS. You've stated numerous times that you play RDM out of Abyssea. Even though it went from "useless" to the "best job", you've stated that you use it outside abyssea.

Our argument is your choice of words of labeling RDM "useless" INSIDE Abyssea. We want you to define "useless" and explain how RDM is useless. Simply not being the best isn't the same as "useless".

You simply ignore the clarification because you can't. You are a band wagoner so much so, that instead of admitting as such, you tried various arguments to justify it. In doing so, you keep digging yourself further and further in a hole, making false accusations to include BRDs, /whm, /rdm and over all game play.

All of this nonsense for what? You are a band wagoner, just man up, accept it and move on. RDM has plenty of uses in Abyssea. Just because people have access to haste, cure and refresh doesn't mean people will use them, because they aren't. When people shout for {Healing magic}, they are referring to WHM, RDM or SCH. You're simply complaining because RDM isn't the most desired like before, which makes you a band wagoner.

If you're specifically referring to how you play to save time, then you should say so as I asked you several times to differentiate between the two. In that case, that only makes RDM "useless" in how you play, not overall
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#253 Jul 11 2011 at 11:05 AM Rating: Decent
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CID wrote:
Your definition consisted of mumbling some incoherent nonsense about Michael Jordan.



You can't blame your inability to read on my part. I specifically said that I was going to FIRST use a real life example as an analogy THEN use FFXI terms. So, if all you can remember is Michael Jordon and you some how thought that was part of my explanation with FFXI, then you failed at reading.

But, I don't think you're that dumb. I'm sure you understood it quite well, but instead of admitting to you, you want to down play it. So, lets this. I'll walk you through it since it appears that those two paragraphs were too much for you to understand.

Name an athlete who you believe mastered a sport.

CID wrote:
Now here's the definition you've been using: A master of X is a job that SE thought everyone would use to accomplish X, regardless of whether or not the game mechanics, metagame or class design actually supports it.

Did I hit the nail on the head there, or would you like to do a better job of articulating your position?


I was going to go back and quote where my explanation was fairly easy to comprehend, but I'm on a short schedule..

My argument is that SE designed jobs to fulfill certain roles, primarily to be unique. How the players decide to play the jobs is up to them. I would argue that SE never meant to pigeon hole a specific job into a specific game play. Doing so defeats the purpose of having multiple jobs with various traits, abilities, skills, etc. I would argue that they prefer diversity, which is the whole reason of Abyssea procs.

Edited, Jul 11th 2011 7:06pm by Almalieque
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#254 Jul 11 2011 at 11:13 AM Rating: Decent
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Our argument is your choice of words of labeling RDM "useless" INSIDE Abyssea. We want you to define "useless" and explain how RDM is useless. Simply not being the best isn't the same as "useless".


Then you need to go back and re read this entire thread, I have stated numerous times why RDM is useless in abyssea. I have also stated why it is Useful in the small % of nonabyssean content that is actually relevant. (or possibly relevant in the future if SE continues to release augmented old gear. Which is why me and 2 MNK friends are activly clearing Salvage with me as RDM).

RDM offers nothing in abyssea that can not be achieved by subbing WHM. Enfeebles are redundant, T4 nukes are a drop in the bucket, and it can't reliably heal anything harder than Visions Teir 2 mobs on its own. It has nothing of value inside of abyssea and contributes nothing to a group, except the ability to hold extra pop items and/or prevent drops from going to the ground.

The only valid point you or hyrist have made is RDM is fun. Which I won't deny, I love running around smacking fodder mobs upside the face /NIN farming Dark Rings.

But the fact of the matter is, RDM offers absolutely nothing to a group, and other jobs are faster when playing alone. In an event where time management is everything that is the biggest factor in usefulness. Having to let a mob deaggro then reclaim in hopes of getting lucky on a 2/7 proc chance from a RDM is time consuming and bothersome. Sure I culd run out as RDM/WHM and heal my THF/NIN friend while we duo farm seals, or I an go on my BLM/WHM heal just as efficiently, and bring 4/7 procs.

As for RDM being desired, I think I have been over this enough through the years. Hell you even stole my line. I never played RDM in the "game friendly" way. I was either meleeing in groups, or soloing sh*t in sky (or lowman farmin Kity Pants with 4 other RDM's and a PLD.) I could care less of the position RDM held, because at the time RDM was the most useful job for how I played the game. Unfortunately it is now to slow FOR ME, and my friends. It is inadequate as a time efficient soloer, it is inadequate in as a time efficient group member, and that makes it mostly useless, in the current game where time is everything.

But since you don't read, or lack the ability to comprehend basic english (and the same things being said numerous times.)I don't know why I am wasting my time talking to you. I could honestly give a rats ass if you think that is bandwagoning. The two jobs I leveled were leveled for largely personal reasons, mostly because I was tired of leeching from my friends, living in an illusuion that I was being of assistance at all in Abyssea.

Furthermore I couldn't give 2 sh*ts what you or anyone else does or finds fun in this game. In fact it doesn't even matter how I play the game, regardless of how any of us choose to play, the game mechanics do not support RDM being practically functional in Abyssea. This is something we can't change no matter what sub we choose, or what gear we wear. The game design prevents RDM from being useful in abyssea, and in a game where abyssea is everything, and thus Time Efficiency is key, RDM is mostly useless (again mostly means largely or not quite completely useless.)


And I am now done responding to you because you lack any logic, or ability to form constructive arguments, concerns etc. and No, stamping your foot and screaming no no no bandwagoner, no no no isn't a constructive argument. which is why I haven't responded to anything you seem to think has been.


Edited, Jul 11th 2011 1:15pm by rdmcandie
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#255 Jul 11 2011 at 11:14 AM Rating: Good
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LyltiaofLakshm, jlejeune.

You guys are right of course, but it's not my damage I'm focusing on.

It's an intern strategy, and I'm already well past halfway in constructing the sword, so I'll likely just finish it and hope for a split.

Higher Delay is offset by the superior Da-Qa attack rate ratio, making Khanda better for strictly TP building.

I emphasize on this because of those I commonly play with. It's better damage overall that I have TP ready for my DNC to close upon for her 2-5k WS + Skillchain bonus, than a marginal increase in DPS on my end. Put bluntly, any DPS I can gain likely won't measure against the amount of additional burst damage I'm giving the party by being the designated SC opener. And having the TP ready more frequently makes for more Skillchain damage overall. It turns my measly low damage WSes into a set up for a possible 5k damage bonus in Abyssea for someone else.

After I have an Almace I'll more likely than not switch gears, but until that point there's no reason not to finish off the OA2-4 as I've the downtime where I can't do much else but solo due to my erratic schedule.

When I'm alone, it can be used for Sanguine Blade spamming.

If I end up tossing it later, it's really no sweat off my back as I've used working on it as an excuse to go out and skill up.

I am getting other Magian Weapons as well. I'm a glutton for sword collection. SE needs to release a weapon rack furniture.
#256 Jul 11 2011 at 11:19 AM Rating: Default
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Almalieque wrote:
CID wrote:
Your definition consisted of mumbling some incoherent nonsense about Michael Jordan.



You can't blame your inability to read on my part.


I'm not. I'm saying you are very bad at articulating your argument.

Almalieque wrote:

CID wrote:
Now here's the definition you've been using: A master of X is a job that SE thought everyone would use to accomplish X, regardless of whether or not the game mechanics, metagame or class design actually supports it.

Did I hit the nail on the head there, or would you like to do a better job of articulating your position?


I was going to go back and quote where my explanation was fairly easy to comprehend, but I'm on a short schedule..

My argument is that SE designed jobs to fulfill certain roles, primarily to be unique. How the players decide to play the jobs is up to them. I would argue that SE never meant to pigeon hole a specific job into a specific game play. Doing so defeats the purpose of having multiple jobs with various traits, abilities, skills, etc. I would argue that they prefer diversity, which is the whole reason of Abyssea procs.

So basically yes, the summary I gave was the definition you subscribe to.

The thing you so eagerly overlook is that it doesn't matter what role SE designed the jobs to fill because SE's intent is completely divergent from the game mechanics. Mastery comes not from the warm fuzzies of what some game designer intended, it is derived from the cold hard reality of what the game mechanics allow to be accomplished.
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I think RDM's neurotic omniscience is sooooooo worth including in any alliance.
#257 Jul 11 2011 at 1:43 PM Rating: Decent
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RCD wrote:
Then you need to go back and re read this entire thread, I have stated numerous times why RDM is useless in abyssea. I have also stated why it is Useful in the small % of nonabyssean content that is actually relevant. (or possibly relevant in the future if SE continues to release augmented old gear. Which is why me and 2 MNK friends are activly clearing Salvage with me as RDM).


Correction: You gave excuses that were all countered. I'll break them down one by one based off your post here. You've ignored every single counter only to bring up another argument just as wrong.

RCD wrote:
RDM offers nothing in abyssea that can not be achieved by subbing WHM.


As I said, the ability to /whm is not the same thing as being a WHM, RDM or SCH. I asked you a very specific question if you've seen any jobs outside of those three pick up a haste/refresh cycle? BLMs aren't going to main heal, neither should they. So, just because it CAN be done by another job doesn't mean it's being done by other jobs. People still look at RDMs,WHMs and SCHs to be the main and support healers. Nothing has changed.

RCD wrote:
Enfeebles are redundant,


How? From level 75 on up, RDM has acquired RDM only spells.

RCD wrote:
T4 nukes are a drop in the bucket


What? Can you define that? How much damage do you consider a "drop in the bucket" vs "good damage"? What is your definition?

RCD wrote:
it can't reliably heal anything harder than Visions Teir 2 mobs on its own


Then you obviously suck. Your failure to cure doesn't reflect on the entire job. I'll admit that without cure V, it is tough, but it still can be done. Your job would be to assist the WHM in healing anyway. You can't complain about being the main healer, then complain about being the back up healer. WTF do you want?

RCD wrote:
It has nothing of value inside of abyssea and contributes nothing to a group, except the ability to hold extra pop items and/or prevent drops from going to the ground.


Read above. Then you obviously suck. I mean really there isn't any other way to put it. If your LS can't find ANY value of you other than holding pop items, then you simply suck.

RCD wrote:
The only valid point you or hyrist have made is RDM is fun. Which I won't deny, I love running around smacking fodder mobs upside the face /NIN farming Dark Rings.


I've made plenty of valid points. They are the ones that you conveniently forget to reply to. Like your rant that people stopped leveling in places like Bibiki Bay because the mob moves were horrible so they stopped and went to the Mire? You are completely full of ish that is doing nothing but trolling like you did years ago. You're going to come back later and say "OH, I was just trolling, RDM is very useful in Abyssea".

RCD wrote:
But the fact of the matter is, RDM offers absolutely nothing to a group, and other jobs are faster when playing alone. In an event where time management is everything that is the biggest factor in usefulness. Having to let a mob deaggro then reclaim in hopes of getting lucky on a 2/7 proc chance from a RDM is time consuming and bothersome. Sure I culd run out as RDM/WHM and heal my THF/NIN friend while we duo farm seals, or I an go on my BLM/WHM heal just as efficiently, and bring 4/7 procs.


If you have nothing to offer in a group, then you suck.

RCD wrote:
As for RDM being desired, I think I have been over this enough through the years. Hell you even stole my line. I never played RDM in the "game friendly" way. I was either meleeing in groups, or soloing sh*t in sky (or lowman farmin Kity Pants with 4 other RDM's and a PLD.) I could care less of the position RDM held, because at the time RDM was the most useful job for how I played the game. Unfortunately it is now to slow FOR ME, and my friends. It is inadequate as a time efficient soloer, it is inadequate in as a time efficient group member, and that makes it mostly useless, in the current game where time is everything.


You did what you did against the grain because RDM was very popular. Now that it isn't so popular, you don't want to do it any more. That's what I meant by being desired.

RCD wrote:
But since you don't read, or lack the ability to comprehend basic english (and the same things being said numerous times.)I don't know why I am wasting my time talking to you. I could honestly give a rats ass if you think that is bandwagoning. The two jobs I leveled were leveled for largely personal reasons, mostly because I was tired of leeching from my friends, living in an illusuion that I was being of assistance at all in Abyssea.


I also don't care if you're a band wagoner. Just don't come on RDM forums proclaiming otherwise telling new people that it's useless because you apparently suck at it. I wouldn't have a problem with you if you weren't acting like RDM is "useless", because it isn't. I really don't care why you changed jobs, just don't come here making up stuff and telling people lies.

RCD wrote:

Furthermore I couldn't give 2 sh*ts what you or anyone else does or finds fun in this game. In fact it doesn't even matter how I play the game, regardless of how any of us choose to play, the game mechanics do not support RDM being practically functional in Abyssea. This is something we can't change no matter what sub we choose, or what gear we wear. The game design prevents RDM from being useful in abyssea, and in a game where abyssea is everything, and thus Time Efficiency is key, RDM is mostly useless (again mostly means largely or not quite completely useless.)


RDM isn't any form of "useless" in abyssea.

RCD wrote:
And I am now done responding to you because you lack any logic, or ability to form constructive arguments, concerns etc. and No, stamping your foot and screaming no no no bandwagoner, no no no isn't a constructive argument. which is why I haven't responded to anything you seem to think has been.


And once more, you're full of ish. You wrote more on this post then you have your previous posts towards me combined. You re-iterated the same garbage numerous times. The amount of effort you placed in this post far exceeded the amount of effort necessary to respond to the statements you ignored. You even would continue to argue points within the same post that contained stuff you ignored.

So, obviously this has nothing to with my "logic" or "inability to form arguments", but your own failure. Else, you wouldn't continue to bring up more and different arguments, now would you?
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#258 Jul 11 2011 at 1:59 PM Rating: Default
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Cid wrote:

I'm not. I'm saying you are very bad at articulating your argument.


Cid wrote:
Now here's the definition you've been using: A master of X is a job that SE thought everyone would use to accomplish X, regardless of whether or not the game mechanics, metagame or class design actually supports it.


Almalieque wrote:
My argument is that SE designed jobs to fulfill certain roles, primarily to be unique. How the players decide to play the jobs is up to them. I would argue that SE never meant to pigeon hole a specific job into a specific game play. Doing so defeats the purpose of having multiple jobs with various traits, abilities, skills, etc. I would argue that they prefer diversity, which is the whole reason of Abyssea procs.


Once again, your failure to read isn't my problem.

Those two statements are saying the exact opposite. Your statement says that SE designed jobs to do certain things REGARDLESS of anything. That is implying that PLDs should be tanks in any situation. I'm arguing the exact opposite. My statement says that SE designed jobs to fulfill certain roles (to guarantee that a job is able to fulfill it) but prefers diversity. Which means, PLD is designed to be the tank, but promotes diversity upon other jobs to be able to tank.

I've stated numerous of times that what the job was designed to do and how the job is played are two completely different things. That is how it's possible to be the "master" of something but not the most desired. The most desired can/will change as the game change and people do different things. That doesn't have any effect on which job was designed to fulfill a role and vice versa. Just because people decide to chain weak VT mobs instead of heavy hitting IT+ shadow killing mobs, doesn't magically make NINs a "Master" of tanking. That's determined by the design of the job. How you play the game determines which job is best suited for the mission.

All you have done is proven my point.
I would love for you to try to explain how that was poorly articulated. What else could I have done?
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Demea wrote:
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#259 Jul 11 2011 at 2:16 PM Rating: Default
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IcookPizza wrote:

I think RDM's neurotic omniscience is sooooooo worth including in any alliance.
#260 Jul 11 2011 at 2:25 PM Rating: Decent
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I don't really get what all this is supposed to prove.

My LS has a couple guys that like RDM. They come out for our fights - some tough stuff too, mind you; up to heroes level 1 trophy NMs. They heal and they haste and they addle and they do whatever the hack it is that RDMs do. I'm usually too worried about BLM procs. But they do their job and nobody dies and we kill mobs and it's okay.

So what's the big deal here? It's a fine enough job in abyssea. Can get refresh atma and nuking atma and even curing atma if they want. Maybe it doesn't fit into the "perfect" 4-man seal farming proc setup, but for an LS that smokes through things, it gets the job done.

Not useless.

It's gunna be okay.

Hands off WHM's Cure V though :p
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#261 Jul 11 2011 at 2:28 PM Rating: Good
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So what's the big deal here? It's a fine enough job in abyssea. Can get refresh atma and nuking atma and even curing atma if they want. Maybe it doesn't fit into the "perfect" 4-man seal farming proc setup, but for an LS that smokes through things, it gets the job done.


If you're trying to make a case for RDM's usefulness in Abyssea, this isn't exactly what I'd call a stunning endorsement..
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RDM can attain an almost static 50% reduction to recast time, SCH can over shoot this for a total of 60% reduction under Alacrity (provided you are wearing loafers and keeping dark weather on yourself)

rdmcandie wrote:
MACC is a joke, any job with access to mage gear can hit close the MACC cap on legion mobs, which is why my BRD/RDM can land slow/para/blind despite having only 150 skill (from /RDM.)
#262 Jul 11 2011 at 3:21 PM Rating: Decent
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LyltiaofLakshmi wrote:
Quote:
So what's the big deal here? It's a fine enough job in abyssea. Can get refresh atma and nuking atma and even curing atma if they want. Maybe it doesn't fit into the "perfect" 4-man seal farming proc setup, but for an LS that smokes through things, it gets the job done.


If you're trying to make a case for RDM's usefulness in Abyssea, this isn't exactly what I'd call a stunning endorsement..


I think that endorsement isn't "Hey, look what RDM can do!", but "RDM isn't useless". There's a difference, something which the FFXI environment tends to forget. What was said there is exactly in line with what everyone else has been saying.

RDM can be used efficiently in Abyssea. It may not be the idea job for low-man to solo, but that doesn't justify the label "useless", which is what me and Hyrist have been arguing. It's not "uselss".

Edit: No one so far has been able to prove that RDM is uesless, only not the best.

Edited, Jul 11th 2011 11:22pm by Almalieque
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#263 Jul 11 2011 at 3:36 PM Rating: Default
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So what's the big deal here? It's a fine enough job in abyssea. Can get refresh atma and nuking atma and even curing atma if they want. Maybe it doesn't fit into the "perfect" 4-man seal farming proc setup, but for an LS that smokes through things, it gets the job done.


Thats just it, It fits into a LINKSHELL that smokes through things, them being there or not is likely not even a variable. My LS smokes through things to and we generally go NIN/WAR (or MNK/NIN), WAR/SAM, THF/NIN, BLM/BRD (or BLM/WHM), BLU/NIN, WHM/RDM. We smoke sh*t and have absolutely no need for a RDM in abyssea. Before I took BLM to 90 we had a 7 man group, me as RDM and a BLM (who no longer plays). I did nothing of any real value, oh sure I provided an extea source of haste (kind of redundant for the first 2-3 minutes of the fight when only 1-2 people are on the mob.)

I basically leeched 90% of what I accomplished in abyssea because everything I had to offer was covered by others. BLU could help heal after using their proc, better than RDM.

That is why RDM is MOSTLY useless because it has no real value in a group, sure having one isn't crippling you any, but not having one isn't going to hurt you either.

Its not just a clear cut "undesired job" its that the mechanics that made RDM highly desired no longer apply. You do not need a job that can fit into a hole anymore because 90% of the current game can be done with 3-4 people.

This is what I refer to when I say certain people have blinders on. Them being there or not has no bearing on the success of the party. RDM is not going to make or break an event in abyssea, and that is why it is mostly useless. Having the RDM in your group come as a generic DD, offers more in the end then a RDM, simply through reduction in time spent per mob.

In the case of Time efficiency in abyssea RDM is in large part redundant, it neither boosts nor destroys success in any meaningful way.

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#264 Jul 11 2011 at 3:58 PM Rating: Default
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RCD wrote:
Thats just it, It fits into a LINKSHELL that smokes through things, them being there or not is likely not even a variable. My LS smokes through things to and we generally go NIN/WAR (or MNK/NIN), WAR/SAM, THF/NIN, BLM/BRD (or BLM/WHM), BLU/NIN, WHM/RDM. We smoke sh*t and have absolutely no need for a RDM in abyssea. Before I took BLM to 90 we had a 7 man group, me as RDM and a BLM (who no longer plays). I did nothing of any real value, oh sure I provided an extea source of haste (kind of redundant for the first 2-3 minutes of the fight when only 1-2 people are on the mob.)


If your definition is based on if it can be done without RDM, I would argue that has mostly been the case. The only thing I can think of that *needed* RDM was for chainspell. Just about everything else can be replicated one way or the other.

RCD wrote:
You do not need a job that can fit into a hole anymore because 90% of the current game can be done with 3-4 people.


Assuming the right jobs are available. Not everyone has a WHM or SCH. If you just so happen to have a RDM, guess who's going to be placed in the healer position? You guessed it! The RDM.

RCD wrote:
This is what I refer to when I say certain people have blinders on. Them being there or not has no bearing on the success of the party.


And that is true for many jobs depending on what you're doing. That doesn't equate to be "useless". My LS would fight mobs that can be soloed by 4 people, that means at least 14 people are "useless" by your definition.

Just because it can be done without you, doesn't make you "useless". Not being able to get it done without you, makes you important. There's a difference.

RCD wrote:
In the case of Time efficiency in abyssea RDM is in large part redundant, it neither boosts nor destroys success in any meaningful way.


Then you simply suck. When my LS farms, I enhance the outcome. Enough to make a big difference? Probably not, but the same can be said by any DD.
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Almalieque wrote:

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#265 Jul 11 2011 at 4:02 PM Rating: Decent
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Then you simply suck. When my LS farms, I feel I enhance the outcome. Enough to make a bigany difference? Probably not, but the same can be said by any DD that is afk and not contributing to kill speed .


ftfy.

Edited, Jul 11th 2011 6:02pm by rdmcandie
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#266 Jul 11 2011 at 4:04 PM Rating: Default
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cidbahamut wrote:
It's like arguing with a very verbose wall.


Well, do you not see the difference in the two statements?

1. SE designs a job for people to play it a certain way regardless of anything.

2. SE designs a job to ensure that at least one job is able to fulfill in a certain role, but promotes diversity.

I understand if you don't want to admit that you're wrong, but just do what RDC does and just ignore. You know, just like you did with my "Master" definition that you accused of being inaccurate.
Just don't act like I'm the problem.

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Almalieque wrote:

I'm biased against statistics
#267 Jul 11 2011 at 4:08 PM Rating: Default
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rdmcandie wrote:
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Then you simply suck. When my LS farms, I feel I enhance the outcome. Enough to make a bigany difference? Probably not, but the same can be said by any DD that is afk and not contributing to kill speed .


ftfy.

Edited, Jul 11th 2011 6:02pm by rdmcandie


So answer me this. How is me killing mobs not contributing to the kill speed, but somehow the DD magically is? What type of funny math are you doing?
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Demea wrote:
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#268 Jul 11 2011 at 4:16 PM Rating: Excellent
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WTF? How the?

Countered, Jul 11th 2011 6:17pm by Anonymous

Edited, Jul 11th 2011 6:19pm by IcookPizza
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#269 Jul 11 2011 at 4:20 PM Rating: Good
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Doubt it was Me. Since pretty much every post I have is the same thing, with wording slowly degrading to grade 6 level english so a certain someone can understand it.

Edited, Jul 11th 2011 6:21pm by rdmcandie
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#270 Jul 11 2011 at 4:29 PM Rating: Default
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rdmcandie wrote:
Doubt it was Me. Since pretty much every post I have is the same thing, with wording slowly degrading to grade 6 level english so a certain someone can understand it.

Edited, Jul 11th 2011 6:21pm by rdmcandie


Can't understand your own posts?
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Demea wrote:
Almalieque wrote:

I'm biased against statistics
#271 Jul 11 2011 at 4:35 PM Rating: Good
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I know you are, but what am I?
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#272 Jul 11 2011 at 4:37 PM Rating: Decent
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a sexy feline that has a penis.
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#273 Jul 11 2011 at 4:49 PM Rating: Default
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IcookPizza wrote:
I know you are, but what am I?


Pizza + 1
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Demea wrote:
Almalieque wrote:

I'm biased against statistics
#274 Jul 11 2011 at 7:29 PM Rating: Default
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Almalieque wrote:
rdmcandie wrote:
Quote:
Then you simply suck. When my LS farms, I feel I enhance the outcome. Enough to make a bigany difference? Probably not, but the same can be said by any DD that is afk and not contributing to kill speed .


ftfy.

Edited, Jul 11th 2011 6:02pm by rdmcandie


So answer me this. How is me killing mobs not contributing to the kill speed, but somehow the DD magically is? What type of funny math are you doing?

You are providing the role of a warm body.

What you are not providing is utility specific to a Red Mage.

You would bring the same utility or more likely superior utility by attending an event on another job if you have one leveled.

That is the problem.
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I think RDM's neurotic omniscience is sooooooo worth including in any alliance.
#275 Jul 11 2011 at 7:33 PM Rating: Default
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Almalieque wrote:
cidbahamut wrote:
It's like arguing with a very verbose wall.


Well, do you not see the difference in the two statements?

1. SE designs a job for people to play it a certain way regardless of anything.

2. SE designs a job to ensure that at least one job is able to fulfill in a certain role, but promotes diversity.

I understand if you don't want to admit that you're wrong, but just do what RDC does and just ignore. You know, just like you did with my "Master" definition that you accused of being inaccurate.
Just don't act like I'm the problem.


You lack clarity.

I'm no longer certain of what we're even arguing anymore, such is your cavalcade of verbosity and penchant for obfuscation.

State your terms with extreme brevity that we might begin our cycle of parry and riposte anew.
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IcookPizza wrote:

I think RDM's neurotic omniscience is sooooooo worth including in any alliance.
#276 Jul 11 2011 at 7:42 PM Rating: Decent
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I'm no longer certain of what we're even arguing anymore, such is your cavalcade of verbosity and penchant for obfuscation.

State your terms with extreme brevity that we might begin our cycle of parry and riposte anew.


I am quite sure his intellectual capacity for vocabulary, and a primitive understanding of basic English caused him to understand only 1/4 of the words you used. (sh*t mine stopped at 75%).
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#277 Jul 11 2011 at 8:33 PM Rating: Good
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Hey guys, long time no post (in job=2), but I'm pretty OK with most of RDM these days (the curing aspect could use some work, and a little more uniqueness would go a long way), so I suppose I'm not feeling too argumentative.

Regarding Almace, it's in reach for any serious RDM melee enthusiast (and it will likely be my 2nd Empyrean once I get the rest of my group their 85s). My LS ranges from casual to extremely casual, and I still managed to pick up a Kannagi (same path) just by having the initiative to get it done, and a group of friends who would help me burn pop sets a few times a month. Sucks a bit that newbie RDMs won't have access to it, and that WoE looks to be becoming less solo-friendly instead of moreso, but what can you do (other than using Evisceration instead of CDC)?

We can melee in XP parties now without causing a fuss at all (heck, most people will just be glad you're not AFK), and RDM can whip out a sword or dagger in NeoDyna for more !! procs and actually be considered useful for doing so, in addition to bringing any necessary Sleeps/Cures. If I wasn't constantly on NIN (apparently I am the designated tank), I'd be RDMing up a storm. I'll probably try it out just for kicks in the next week or so, but it wouldn't surprise me at all if a 70+ RDM/BLU or RDM/PLD could clear 30k/hr solo in post-update Campaign.

We can't tank or solo really anymore, so good updates shouldn't be out of reach on the way to 99 (no matter how scared SE is to give them to us), and I expect we'll see that in the 95 and 99 cap-raising updates.

Honestly, with a little nudge to our curing ability, and a focus on some hot new enfeebles, I'd be happy as a clam on RDM. I'm sure the new endgame at 99 won't be as melee-friendly as the current Neo75 content that exists (and is sure to be added), but wasn't the RDM mantra always "Melee on fodder, Magic on bosses"?
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#278 Jul 11 2011 at 8:38 PM Rating: Decent
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but wasn't the RDM mantra always "Melee on fodder, Magic on bosses"?


For the most part ya depending on how many RDM's were present at which point /NIN and cycling those spells for the resitance down or /BLU and spamming Headbutt, as well as opening skill chains was slighty more useful. Unless of course you and the other RDM's pooled your merits to optimize 2 spells each in which case backlining an doing your 2 spells was highly welcomed. (also depended on the mob)
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#279 Jul 11 2011 at 10:23 PM Rating: Decent
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cidbahamut wrote:
Almalieque wrote:
rdmcandie wrote:
Quote:
Then you simply suck. When my LS farms, I feel I enhance the outcome. Enough to make a bigany difference? Probably not, but the same can be said by any DD that is afk and not contributing to kill speed .


ftfy.

Edited, Jul 11th 2011 6:02pm by rdmcandie


So answer me this. How is me killing mobs not contributing to the kill speed, but somehow the DD magically is? What type of funny math are you doing?

You are providing the role of a warm body.

What you are not providing is utility specific to a Red Mage.

You would bring the same utility or more likely superior utility by attending an event on another job if you have one leveled.

That is the problem.


So, you're going to answer the question or not? We already discussed that what the job is designed to do and how it's played are two completely different concepts. RDMs were claimed to be useless. How is a RDM killing mobs NOT contributing to the kill speed but DDs are?

Quote:
You lack clarity.

I'm no longer certain of what we're even arguing anymore, such is your cavalcade of verbosity and penchant for obfuscation.

State your terms with extreme brevity that we might begin our cycle of parry and riposte anew.

1. SE designs a job for people to play it a certain way regardless of anything.

VS

2. SE designs a job to ensure that at least one job is able to fulfill in a certain role, but promotes diversity.

There is absolutely no way to make that any shorter or clearer and still be proper English. If you can't understand that, then the problem is on you. You perfectly understand. You're just trolling because you don't want to admit that you're wrong and you think I'm going to waste time finding ways to say the same thing over and over again for your pleasure.

RCD wrote:
For the most part ya depending on how many RDM's were present at which point /NIN and cycling those spells for the resitance down or /BLU and spamming Headbutt, as well as opening skill chains was slighty more useful. Unless of course you and the other RDM's pooled your merits to optimize 2 spells each in which case backlining an doing your 2 spells was highly welcomed. (also depended on the mob)


Please refrain from giving any RDM advice to anyone, as it is clear that you obviously fail at RDM, horribly.

Funny how you were ignoring me, made a statement that you thought was relevant, got asked a question that you couldn't counter and now back to ignoring.... hmmmmm... I see a pattern.
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Demea wrote:
Almalieque wrote:

I'm biased against statistics
#280 Jul 11 2011 at 11:55 PM Rating: Excellent
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There is absolutely no way to make that any shorter or clearer and still be proper English.
I'll sacrifice proper English for clarity.
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#281 Jul 12 2011 at 12:20 AM Rating: Good
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Buttered toast.
#282 Jul 12 2011 at 12:35 AM Rating: Decent
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IcookPizza wrote:
Quote:
There is absolutely no way to make that any shorter or clearer and still be proper English.
I'll sacrifice proper English for clarity.


alma skipped school the day they took words meanings that started with C, that's why he is unaware that mostly and completely are two different things.
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#283 Jul 12 2011 at 12:38 AM Rating: Good
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You are definitely stoned.
-edit-
I'm familiar with those kinds of analogies allll too well!

Edited, Jul 12th 2011 2:39am by IcookPizza
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#284 Jul 12 2011 at 12:47 AM Rating: Good
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It's like arguing with the Berlin Wall, except less politcal... more final fantastical.
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#285 Jul 12 2011 at 12:47 AM Rating: Good
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It's like arguing with the Berlin Wall, except less politcal... more final fantastical.

-EDIT-
I though alla made double-posting impossible.
What kind of budget cuts are these?

Edited, Jul 12th 2011 2:50am by IcookPizza
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#286 Jul 12 2011 at 12:49 AM Rating: Decent
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I am always stoned. I am Canadian after all.

and as an aside (and completely of topic ,if there is one any more) did you know that the Canadian military has has Gays in it for years and not once has it caused and issue. In fact the biggest issue regarding sexuality in the military was a highly respected MALE Colonel raping a bunch of WOMEN. Thats right Alma the only sexually related issue was Man on Woman, you can sleep soundly in your cot tonight knowing that the reversal of DADT won't affect you.
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#287 Jul 12 2011 at 12:52 AM Rating: Good
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Anyway.
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#288 Jul 12 2011 at 1:39 AM Rating: Good
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Quote:
"Melee on fodder, Magic on bosses"?


It's Always been my mantra. But now there are plenty of NM's that are on that fodder list as well.

I'm back to 'wait and see' mod. There's more juicy dats in the works so it means whatever they have for us this wave is beyond the concept stage and into the testing stage. Hopefully it won't take a full year this time for them to come around and actually release it, however.
#289 Jul 12 2011 at 5:47 AM Rating: Decent
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Almalieque wrote:

1. SE designs a job for people to play it a certain way regardless of anything.

VS

2. SE designs a job to ensure that at least one job is able to fulfill in a certain role, but promotes diversity.

Repeating yourself verbatim? Really?
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IcookPizza wrote:

I think RDM's neurotic omniscience is sooooooo worth including in any alliance.
#290 Jul 12 2011 at 6:44 AM Rating: Decent
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rdmcandie wrote:
IcookPizza wrote:
Quote:
There is absolutely no way to make that any shorter or clearer and still be proper English.
I'll sacrifice proper English for clarity.


alma skipped school the day they took words meanings that started with C, that's why he is unaware that mostly and completely are two different things.


You must have missed the days of school when they discussed words that started with "A" and "F", that's why you are unaware of the meaning "RDM isn't ANY FORM of useless", not mostly useless, not completely useless, not ANY FORM of useless. You can try to hang onto your back peddle if you want, but I've already acknowledged the difference of mostly and completely and countered that neither is true. You have yet countered.

Since you
Cid wrote:

Repeating yourself verbatim? Really?


Yes, like I said, it doesn't get any simpler than that. So, tell me exactly what part is confusing or misleading to you and we can work bit by bit. Simply saying "I don't understand any of it", is not only a lie, but a waste of my time to try find different ways to explain it if I don't even know which part is misleading you.
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Demea wrote:
Almalieque wrote:

I'm biased against statistics
#291 Jul 12 2011 at 7:42 AM Rating: Default
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Almalieque wrote:

Since you
Cid wrote:

Repeating yourself verbatim? Really?


Yes, like I said, it doesn't get any simpler than that. So, tell me exactly what part is confusing or misleading to you and we can work bit by bit. Simply saying "I don't understand any of it", is not only a lie, but a waste of my time to try find different ways to explain it if I don't even know which part is misleading you.

The part where we were hurling walls of text at each other and began arguing against points the other probably wasn't making.

So let's start from the beginning.

I posit that Red Mage's capabilities make it exceptionally well suited to soloing mobs of all sorts. Its capability vastly surpassed every other job at the 75 cap and it has retained much of its ability to solo even at the level 90 cap.

Do you dispute this? A yes or no answer will suffice.
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IcookPizza wrote:

I think RDM's neurotic omniscience is sooooooo worth including in any alliance.
#292 Jul 12 2011 at 8:17 AM Rating: Decent
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cidbahamut wrote:
Almalieque wrote:

Since you
Cid wrote:

Repeating yourself verbatim? Really?


Yes, like I said, it doesn't get any simpler than that. So, tell me exactly what part is confusing or misleading to you and we can work bit by bit. Simply saying "I don't understand any of it", is not only a lie, but a waste of my time to try find different ways to explain it if I don't even know which part is misleading you.

The part where we were hurling walls of text at each other and began arguing against points the other probably wasn't making.

So let's start from the beginning.

I posit that Red Mage's capabilities make it exceptionally well suited to soloing mobs of all sorts. Its capability vastly surpassed every other job at the 75 cap and it has retained much of its ability to solo even at the level 90 cap.

Do you dispute this? A yes or no answer will suffice.



There's no "wall of text" in the 2 statements that I presented to you. So I ask again, what part of

"1. SE designs a job for people to play it a certain way regardless of anything.
VS
2. SE designs a job to ensure that at least one job is able to fulfill in a certain role, but promotes diversity."


is misleading to you?
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Demea wrote:
Almalieque wrote:

I'm biased against statistics
#293 Jul 12 2011 at 8:27 AM Rating: Decent
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Answer my question or we're just going to be going in circles again.

Edited, Jul 12th 2011 10:27am by cidbahamut
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IcookPizza wrote:

I think RDM's neurotic omniscience is sooooooo worth including in any alliance.
#294 Jul 12 2011 at 8:35 AM Rating: Decent
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cidbahamut wrote:
Answer my question or we're just going to be going in circles again.

Edited, Jul 12th 2011 10:27am by cidbahamut


No, we're not because I'll just ignore your question until you answer mine. I asked you first twice. You can't ignore my question twice and then expect me to play your game. Obviously you understood EXACTLY what I said, but instead of admitting you being wrong, you decide to start over by creating a condition where you think you can come out on top.

You either understood the statements or not. If you don't understand those statements, then there isn't any reason to continue with you because I don't know any other way to respond to you. So, either explain the confusion or accept the fact that you understand it.
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Demea wrote:
Almalieque wrote:

I'm biased against statistics
#295 Jul 12 2011 at 8:41 AM Rating: Decent
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I'm trying to start over from square one but ok, I'll hummor you.
Almalieque wrote:

1. SE designs a job for people to play it a certain way regardless of anything.

VS

2. SE designs a job to ensure that at least one job is able to fulfill in a certain role, but promotes diversity.

My understanding is that you are attributing one of these positions to yourself and the other to me. However I do not subscribe to either statement and thus suspect you have misinterpreted something else I said along the way.
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IcookPizza wrote:

I think RDM's neurotic omniscience is sooooooo worth including in any alliance.
#296 Jul 12 2011 at 8:56 AM Rating: Default
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cidbahamut wrote:
I'm trying to start over from square one but ok, I'll hummor you.
Almalieque wrote:

1. SE designs a job for people to play it a certain way regardless of anything.

VS

2. SE designs a job to ensure that at least one job is able to fulfill in a certain role, but promotes diversity.

My understanding is that you are attributing one of these positions to yourself and the other to me. However I do not subscribe to either statement and thus suspect you have misinterpreted something else I said along the way.


That's nice to know, but that wasn't the question, so it's totally irrelevant.

The concern wasn't if I understood you correctly, but if you understood me correctly. You claimed that you couldn't understand my words. Whether or not you subscribe to one of the two isn't of any of my concern. So I ask yet again, which part of that don't you understand?
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Demea wrote:
Almalieque wrote:

I'm biased against statistics
#297 Jul 12 2011 at 9:08 AM Rating: Default
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Context.

Not that it matters since my intent is to start over to see whether we actually disagree on anything or if there's just been a series of perpetual misinterpretations. Now answer my question:

I posit that Red Mage's capabilities make it exceptionally well suited to soloing mobs of all sorts. Its capability vastly surpassed every other job at the 75 cap and it has retained much of its ability to solo even at the level 90 cap.

Do you dispute this? A yes or no answer will suffice.
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IcookPizza wrote:

I think RDM's neurotic omniscience is sooooooo worth including in any alliance.
#298 Jul 12 2011 at 10:43 AM Rating: Default
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cidbahamut wrote:
Context.

Not that it matters since my intent is to start over to see whether we actually disagree on anything or if there's just been a series of perpetual misinterpretations. Now answer my question:

I posit that Red Mage's capabilities make it exceptionally well suited to soloing mobs of all sorts. Its capability vastly surpassed every other job at the 75 cap and it has retained much of its ability to solo even at the level 90 cap.

Do you dispute this? A yes or no answer will suffice.

Trust me, I will answer your question, but you still haven't answered mine.

You said the following:

"You lack clarity.

I'm no longer certain of what we're even arguing anymore, such is your cavalcade of verbosity and penchant for obfuscation.

State your terms with extreme brevity that we might begin our cycle of parry and riposte anew.
"

Nothing in there was about context. I could have said China is an Asian country. There is no context involved, but that doesn't make it verbose, obfuscated and without clarity. A statement without context doesn't default to the claims that you made. I simply asked you to justify your claim by telling me which part of those statements are verbose, obfuscated and without clarity. I'm using YOUR words, not mine.

Edit:

You're full of BS: you also said

CID wrote:
My understanding is that you are attributing one of these positions to yourself and the other to me. However I do not subscribe to either statement and thus suspect you have misinterpreted something else I said along the way.


That is the exact context.... Even if context were the problem, you didn't specify what needed to be placed in context.

Edited, Jul 12th 2011 6:51pm by Almalieque
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Almalieque wrote:

I'm biased against statistics
#299 Jul 12 2011 at 10:53 AM Rating: Default
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Let's start here then.
Almalieque wrote:

RDM was never a Master of Solo, just the best suited class to get the job done. There's a big difference.

One that is the best at something doesn't have mastery of the subject in question. That makes no sense to me.

Being a master of something would indicate that you are very good at something. Yet you say the job that is best at soloing is not a master of soloing. If it's the best at soloing then how can it not be good enough to achieve mastery? Or can mastery simply not be achieved?
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IcookPizza wrote:

I think RDM's neurotic omniscience is sooooooo worth including in any alliance.
#300 Jul 12 2011 at 11:05 AM Rating: Decent
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cidbahamut wrote:
Let's start here then.
Almalieque wrote:

RDM was never a Master of Solo, just the best suited class to get the job done. There's a big difference.

One that is the best at something doesn't have mastery of the subject in question. That makes no sense to me.

Being a master of something would indicate that you are very good at something. Yet you say the job that is best at soloing is not a master of soloing. If it's the best at soloing then how can it not be good enough to achieve mastery? Or can mastery simply not be achieved?


No,let's start with you answering my question so I can answer your question.

You made very distinct claims about my statements. I want you to specifically point out the parts in my statements that support your claim.

I'm not sure if you saw my edit, but you clearly know the context. Not only that, if you are able to say that you don't subscribe to any of those statements, then you must be able to understand them first in order to compare and make that conclusion.

So, are you going to answer the question or are you going to admit that you were just talking trash? It would be much easier if you just admit that you were just talking trash.
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Demea wrote:
Almalieque wrote:

I'm biased against statistics
#301 Jul 12 2011 at 11:14 AM Rating: Default
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I just gave you an answer.
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I think RDM's neurotic omniscience is sooooooo worth including in any alliance.
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