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#77 Jul 02 2011 at 1:33 AM Rating: Good
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IcookPizza wrote:
MP regeneration is faster than it ever has been; switching my merits from MP to HP for that life-buffer seems all the more enticing...

One rule still stands:
More MP = You can do more things to mobs.
More HP = Mobs can do more things to you.

RDM has 2 pessimistic (and logical) reasons to prioritize HP over MP:
-In anticipation of opponents' offensive potential
-In anticipation of self error

I prefer optimistically addressing my casting potential by prioritizing MP over HP.

More of a "grab life by the horns" kinda feel, if you will.
:)

I left my merits alone at half'n'half. Cruor HP% is twice as much as Cruor MP%, which is somewhat double-edged. HP merits get double the impact from Cruor than MP merits and you can say double the value from Cruor, but even RDM gets obscene amounts of HP as it is, but less so MP. MP regeneration outside Abyssea isn't that fast, if still faster. It's enough for me to leave it as is.
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#78 Jul 02 2011 at 1:46 AM Rating: Decent
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Quote:
More MP = You can do more things to mobs.
More HP = Mobs can do more things to you.

RDM has 2 pessimistic (and logical) reasons to prioritize HP over MP:
-In anticipation of opponents' offensive potential
-In anticipation of self error


It really depends on what you solo with your RDM. If you can nuke fast enough to deplete your MP pool to the point where you're standing around waiting on Refresh/Convert, and those MP merits would make a difference, that usually means you're not casting any/many defensive spells; ergo, the NM's offense is weak, and you should really consider meleeing instead of nuking in the first place. On the other extreme, if staying alive requires near-constant juggling of defensive/enfeebling spells and/or kiting, your opportunities to nuke are limited to the point where Refresh/Convert are able to cover your MP costs without trouble. The point being, your offensive capabilities are much more limited by the NM and requisite strategy than your MP pool. This is not to say that more MP is entirely useless; just that it is useful much less than one might think.

On the other end, your reasons for prioritizing HP over MP are sound, but the list is not complete. For example, take Faust at 75 cap. With exceptional gear, strategy, and practice, a high rate of success was entirely within reason; but no matter how good or prepared you were, things could always go wrong, and you could die in seconds at any time. Lag, be it client or server side, could contribute; maybe your girlfriend calls in the middle and you're distracted; maybe he just decides to be a complete *******, resist Bind and Gravity back to back, Typhoon x3, and double crit you to death. In short, it's just like accuracy; no matter how good it is, there's always a small chance of failure. The main draw of the additional HP merits is that they hedge against these rare but catastrophic failures; they won't always save you, but they will over time.

So, when comparing the two, do I spend my merits to very slightly increase my killspeed (which is already very fast) in a limited number of situations, or do I spend them to reduce what is a (completely arbitrary number, YMMV) 5% chance of losing in a "Rocks fall, everyone dies" situation to a 4% chance? It is entirely a choice of personal taste, but when given the chance to do so, hedging one's bets is never a bad idea.
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RDM can attain an almost static 50% reduction to recast time, SCH can over shoot this for a total of 60% reduction under Alacrity (provided you are wearing loafers and keeping dark weather on yourself)

rdmcandie wrote:
MACC is a joke, any job with access to mage gear can hit close the MACC cap on legion mobs, which is why my BRD/RDM can land slow/para/blind despite having only 150 skill (from /RDM.)
#79 Jul 02 2011 at 6:47 AM Rating: Default
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icookpizza wrote:
Defense, Shield procs, -%PDT, VIT, killer effects, Bio, etc etc (in addition to their obvious utility) are sound, solid forms of -%Spell interruption.


Exactly.

jlejeune wrote:
That's a blind accusation or another false blanket statement. I can burn my MP pool because I know how to manage MP, I don't need to sit on a full bar to play it safe.


Not at all. Did you understand the logic used? No matter how much MP you have, you can ALWAYS burn through it. That doesn't mean that you don't have enough MP to be successful. So, you can't claim that MP is highly needed solely based on the fact that you're able to spam spells to burn your MP, because that will ALWAYS be the case. You can have 5k mp and blow through that as well (assuming that you have higher level spells), if you're not managing your MP.

Given that our MP refresh rate went up more than double since the 75 cap, it's not looking in your favor.

jlejeune wrote:
But not immediate. Very likely, but not immediate. Frequent, but not immediate. Triples, doubles, crits, they don't change the rate of attack, the damage is done, the timing of spells is the same. There's obvious fluctuations but a clear and visible consistency. If a RDM cannot physically cast during that, odd are the same on any RDM dying because of that consistency. That's a failure on the player's part, not a problem stemming from lack of HP. That's why merit and racial HP differences only matter during immediate damage.


You're not understanding. Spell interruptions is only an example. The fact that you're taking damage is reason enough to support HP/defense. If you're solo melee, you should be meleeing, not casting. So, the only spells that should be cast are composure buffs, enfeebles and cures. By having more defense and HP, you reduce the amount of times necessary to cast cures, which adds unto your overall damage.

The purpose of melee solo is to not cast as much!
So, if you're building up on MP to cast, then you're doing something wrong.

jlejeune wrote:
That's just- wrong.


Are we even playing the same game? If your survival relies on you casting spells, then not having any mp will result in your death, plain and simple. Otherwise, your survival doesn't rely on you casting spells.

jlejeune wrote:
Managing nuke hate? Timing nukes with support? Nuking under fire? Especially nuking under fire? Never had to time nukes to shadows and buffs? Never capped hate with a DD and bounced? Never bounced with another mage? Pinning and nuking? Any non-melee solo?

Tossing a nuke is child's play, but being good at nuking takes skill, attention. You can't auto-attack nukes.

I'm sorry I don't pimp out melee to the exclusion of others, but what I do is NOT fail. Well, I'm not sorry either. There's nothing mystical about melee, it's just another facet to master.


You may not fail as a RDM. I don't know you, so I wont claim as such, but that mentality is failure.

I'm not saying nuking is child's play, but unlike other DD jobs, RDMs just can't hit auto-attack and be successful. That's why I like melee as a RDM over other jobs. I'm much more involved than auto-attack, hoping that I kill the mob before it kills me.

That's what I meant by RDM being more built for nuking than melee. RDM is perfectly able to melee, but it takes much more work and effort to pull it off. That's how RDM melee received such a bad name for so long. Equipping a Joy Toy and a Genbu Shield doesn't cut it, especially if you're not even getting hit, you basically just strapped on a Joy-Toy (that's what she said).

On the other hand, you simply having a spell(i.e. Blizzard IV) does a LOT for your damage. Most of your mage gear you will use, we have + elemental in our AF/relic and +int is cheap and easy to find.
#80 Jul 02 2011 at 8:35 AM Rating: Decent
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Almalieque wrote:
cidbahamut wrote:
Put together an interrupt build. Problem solved.


No, that only reduces interruption. That doesn't stop double attacks, critical attacks and TP moves. In any case, unless I'm guaranteed a fairly low interruption rate, I would rather beef up on hp and defense.


You can put together a build that will guarantee you'll never be interrupted short of knockback or something similar. If you need to make absolutely certain your spell or whatever goes off you can do so.
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I think RDM's neurotic omniscience is sooooooo worth including in any alliance.
#81 Jul 02 2011 at 9:22 AM Rating: Default
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cidbahamut wrote:
Almalieque wrote:
cidbahamut wrote:
Put together an interrupt build. Problem solved.


No, that only reduces interruption. That doesn't stop double attacks, critical attacks and TP moves. In any case, unless I'm guaranteed a fairly low interruption rate, I would rather beef up on hp and defense.


You can put together a build that will guarantee you'll never be interrupted short of knockback or something similar. If you need to make absolutely certain your spell or whatever goes off you can do so.


But at what cost? Serious question, because I don't know.
#82 Jul 02 2011 at 11:18 AM Rating: Default
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Its funny you are all still arguing over this based on a comment i made just to push buttons. It desn't matter what ******* race you choose, all that matters is if you gear properly for the task you are doing, and don't have a head of air when it comes to performing said tasks.
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#83 Jul 02 2011 at 11:51 AM Rating: Good
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Almalieque wrote:
Not at all. Did you understand the logic used? No matter how much MP you have, you can ALWAYS burn through it. That doesn't mean that you don't have enough MP to be successful. So, you can't claim that MP is highly needed solely based on the fact that you're able to spam spells to burn your MP, because that will ALWAYS be the case. You can have 5k mp and blow through that as well (assuming that you have higher level spells), if you're not managing your MP.
Hardly. Any RDM can sit on a full bar. Not any RDM can intentionally run on fumes and still do their job.

Almalieque wrote:
Given that our MP refresh rate went up more than double since the 75 cap, it's not looking in your favor.
Somehow, I'll manage.

jlejeune wrote:
You're not understanding. Spell interruptions is only an example. The fact that you're taking damage is reason enough to support HP/defense. If you're solo melee, you should be meleeing, not casting. So, the only spells that should be cast are composure buffs, enfeebles and cures. By having more defense and HP, you reduce the amount of times necessary to cast cures, which adds unto your overall damage.

The purpose of melee solo is to not cast as much!
So, if you're building up on MP to cast, then you're doing something wrong.
It takes the same work to get back to yellow or white HP whether you have 200 or 300 HP left after the attack. Unless you're intentionally staying in the red to prove you can cast one less cure, any RDM will be doing the same work, casting the same spells, to stay alive. Like I've been saying all along, extra HP from merits or race only matter in the immediate attack.

You don't need to flash pro-melee agenda around, this isn't an anti-melee rally.

Almalieque wrote:
Are we even playing the same game? If your survival relies on you casting spells, then not having any mp will result in your death, plain and simple. Otherwise, your survival doesn't rely on you casting spells.
Obviously?
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#84 Jul 02 2011 at 1:28 PM Rating: Decent
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rdmcandie wrote:
Its funny you are all still arguing over this based on a comment i made just to push buttons. It desn't matter what @#%^ing race you choose, all that matters is if you gear properly for the task you are doing, and don't have a head of air when it comes to performing said tasks.


Funny how you think I care what your intent is. You're giving false information to someone who is asking for assistance. If you want to troll me, that's fine, I don't care. I will argue with you regardless, but don't give out false information to someone else.

jlejeune wrote:
Hardly. Any RDM can sit on a full bar. Not any RDM can intentionally run on fumes and still do their job.


That's the thing though. There is no need to intentionally "run on fumes". Anyone can spam tier IV spells, with enfeebles, buffs and etc. and run out of mp, but that doesn't mean that you're "short" on MP. If you're *intentionally* running on fumes, then that means you don't have to and the MP usage isn't necessary. Your only counter would be that it was necessary to do your job. Well, in that case, then being able to do that is no longer a feat as it's something necessary to do your job. It then becomes a problem with the job design.

jlejeune wrote:
It takes the same work to get back to yellow or white HP whether you have 200 or 300 HP left after the attack. Unless you're intentionally staying in the red to prove you can cast one less cure, any RDM will be doing the same work, casting the same spells, to stay alive. Like I've been saying all along, extra HP from merits or race only matter in the immediate attack.

You don't need to flash pro-melee agenda around, this isn't an anti-melee rally.


That's because it seems that you're confusing multiple points. My entire point is that there are certain scenarios (i.e. solo melee) that is more conducive for races other than a Taru.

The whole argument started off as deciding which race to choose. It was argued that Taru is always the best because of MP. I countered that there are scenarios where jobs other than Taru would be better. I gave the example of solo-melee.

It takes much more work to PREVENT you from getting to 200-300 HP while solo-meleeing than it would nuking. That's simply because as solo-melee, you are constantly getting hit. That's the whole reason why I said in that scenario, you're better off as any race other than Taru, because you have more HP to withstand hits.

jlejeune wrote:
Obviously?


So, how was I wrong then?
#85 Jul 02 2011 at 2:33 PM Rating: Decent
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Almalieque wrote:
cidbahamut wrote:
Almalieque wrote:
cidbahamut wrote:
Put together an interrupt build. Problem solved.


No, that only reduces interruption. That doesn't stop double attacks, critical attacks and TP moves. In any case, unless I'm guaranteed a fairly low interruption rate, I would rather beef up on hp and defense.


You can put together a build that will guarantee you'll never be interrupted short of knockback or something similar. If you need to make absolutely certain your spell or whatever goes off you can do so.


But at what cost? Serious question, because I don't know.

Depends on which pieces you use to reach 102% spell interrupt rate.
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IcookPizza wrote:

I think RDM's neurotic omniscience is sooooooo worth including in any alliance.
#86 Jul 02 2011 at 4:21 PM Rating: Default
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The purpose of melee solo is to not cast as much! So, if you're building up on MP to cast, then you're doing something wrong.


This is so wrong. The purpose of melee solo it to defeat a target that is going t give you something. It doesn't matter if you are spamming MP on it or not while doing so. Melee is used to defeat targets that otherwise gives casting solos some difficulty or are nearly outright immune to magics all together. Vice versa is the same when discussing casting solo's.

pigeon holing yourself into one specific style of play just so you can stroke an imaginary epeen is silly and redundant. A RDM that is not capable of doing both styles of solo, or refuses to may as well just go level a job more suited for those specific solo styles such as a DNC for melee solo, or BLM for nuking solo.

Utilizing MP in a melee solo is perfectly fine and not wrong at all. Infact it make more sense to do so as certain sells greatly increase your survivability options. Keeping a mob Sslowed/Addled/Parad/Blind/Bio'd/Poisoned are all mp heavy duties, not using these is stupid. Furthermore casting an occasional nuke to speed up a kill is more than welcome, if not by your own personal time, the people standing around waiting on you to tickle a mob to death will greatly appreciate several minutes shaved off your kill speeds.

Sounds to me like you want to come in and say "I melee solo stuff so I am cool, and you all suck" If all you want to do is swing your silly swords at a mob, go and level DNC solo nearly twice as fast and you won't ever have to use MP. Since it is so silly to do so in your mind.
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#87 Jul 02 2011 at 5:53 PM Rating: Good
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The purpose of melee solo is to not cast as much! So, if you're building up on MP to cast, then you're doing something wrong.
Melee soloing certainly shines at its brightest when you're not casting so much.

The purposes of RDM melee soloing are:
1- Utility (Sanguine blade, Energy drain, Sambas, etc)
2- The "might as well" factor (melee + enspells/sambas should be woven into ANY amount of casting. also, spikes.)
#- *optional* Shield (which has a whooole 'nother list; surpassing this list in size)
4- parrying! tee hee!

Giving my personal example,
I "nuke-solo" mobs with every bit of MP I can, but my sword generally remains unsheathed. I get more MP to nuke with, because someone named "Sanguine F. Blade" is main-healing me.

(anyone else a fan of the Sanguine>Staff>Blizzard>Sword sequence?)

Edited, Jul 2nd 2011 7:56pm by IcookPizza
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#88 Jul 02 2011 at 5:54 PM Rating: Excellent
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In before ******* trolls tell me how its not a true solo if "Sanguine F. Blade" is main-healing me.
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#89 Jul 02 2011 at 6:12 PM Rating: Excellent
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Sorry, just one more +1 (so close to 1,000!)

I used to nuke in turtle gear+spell interruption.

Sometime later, I realized that if I'm dumb enough to nuke when Stoneskin is down, I deserve to get interrupted.

Now, I wisely nuke in just turtle gear (except that little part at the end, when its firin' off, of course).
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#90 Jul 02 2011 at 6:16 PM Rating: Excellent
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July 2, 2011

Dear diary,
I've written way too many entries within the last 30 minutes.
I think it's time we take a break.
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#91 Jul 02 2011 at 6:43 PM Rating: Decent
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Quote:
(anyone else a fan of the Sanguine>Staff>Blizzard>Sword sequence?)


**** ya it makes 100% sense. Especially conidering if you are like me you have INT and MAB atmas on to push your Sangblade higher. **** curing yourself thats what TP is for.
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#92 Jul 02 2011 at 7:48 PM Rating: Good
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rdmcandie wrote:
Quote:
The purpose of melee solo is to not cast as much! So, if you're building up on MP to cast, then you're doing something wrong.


This is so wrong. The purpose of melee solo it to defeat a target that is going t give you something.


Uh, no, that's the point of fighting the mob, is to get something. HOW you kill it is a whole other issue which has nothing to do with you wanting a specific item.

RDD wrote:

pigeon holing yourself into one specific style of play just so you can stroke an imaginary epeen is silly and redundant. A RDM that is not capable of doing both styles of solo, or refuses to may as well just go level a job more suited for those specific solo styles such as a DNC for melee solo, or BLM for nuking solo.


Pigeon holing? Every since I started RDM, I've always carried gear for main healing, nuking and meeleing and switched when necessary. I'm probably one of the most versatile RDMs there are. My point isn't about nuking or healing now though. The discussion was over a specific time when it would be better to be a race other than Taru and I named a scenario, solo meeling. This isn't about melee vs nuke. I'm giving you a scenario that is better suited for a race other than Taru.


RDD wrote:
Utilizing MP in a melee solo is perfectly fine and not wrong at all. Infact it make more sense to do so as certain sells greatly increase your survivability options. Keeping a mob Sslowed/Addled/Parad/Blind/Bio'd/Poisoned are all mp heavy duties, not using these is stupid. Furthermore casting an occasional nuke to speed up a kill is more than welcome, if not by your own personal time, the people standing around waiting on you to tickle a mob to death will greatly appreciate several minutes shaved off your kill speeds.


I stated composure buffs and enfeebles. That's part of meleeing. Addle isn't always necessary, ice spikes > para, I argued for blind and people laughed at me, but I still use it, slow/BIO are good, poison not necessary.

The simple fact that you said *occasional* nukes completely supports my claim. You're not constantly nuking, you're just occasionally nuking at kills to speed things up. You're able to do that because with your 600-1200+ mp and refresh II, your enfeebles aren't taking that much of your MP.

The point of solo-melee is to only cast the necessary spells during battle. Else, you're just taking hits on your stone skin or on yourself casting spells. By doing so, you aren't dealing any damage, just taking damage and losing MP. If you're going to cast so much, you're better just nuking from a distance. That way, you aren't getting hit.

RDD wrote:
Sounds to me like you want to come in and say "I melee solo stuff so I am cool, and you all suck" If all you want to do is swing your silly swords at a mob, go and level DNC solo nearly twice as fast and you won't ever have to use MP. Since it is so silly to do so in your mind.




Not all. The purpose of this conversation was to present a scenario where it would be more beneficial to be a race other than Taru and I listed one. While doing so, tangents of melee vs nuking arouse, but that was never the point. It's much better to be an Elvaan while solo-meleeing than it would being a Taru.

I win.

ICook wrote:
Melee soloing certainly shines at its brightest when you're not casting so much.


This
#93 Jul 03 2011 at 12:07 AM Rating: Default
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The discussion was over a specific time when it would be better to be a race other than Taru and I named a scenario, solo meeling.


That is cmpltely irrelevant as a good RDM isn't likely going to be getting hit often, if ever at all. HP is completely irrelevant when you are under the protection of 6 shadows, and Stoneskin that if geared popery ca never be interuptted from recasting.

The scenario that you brought up pertains to limited situations where you may or may not be on the receiving end of a death blow. This is also a redundancy as the longer a mob stays alive the more chance you have of getting into this situation. Having an extra 1-2 nukes or 2-3 cures with the few hundred more MP available as a taru negates this, and for reasons outlined above again being in a death blow situation on RDM where a couple hundred MP might save you is slim to nil, if tha situation arises you are going to be dead anyway in the next melee round. (this is large in part because RDM is incapable of healing through the large chunks of damage some mobs can put out.

In the end it is completely redundant to have this discussion. Taru is the best race statistically for RDM but its advantage is moot in todays game of unlimited MP. HP advantage is moot because in any situation where the HP is "saving" you, you will be dead before you can stoneskin, or heal yourself anyway.

MP>HP of course you would have to play outside of abyssea to know that.
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#94 Jul 03 2011 at 1:47 AM Rating: Decent
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MP>HP of course you would have to play outside of abyssea to know that.


Go solo KSNM99 Behemoth on RDM, see if you can live through AoE Stun > Meteor > melee hits with Taru HP + MP merits. I had more than one close call that was completely unavoidable that would've killed me had I lacked even 100-200 HP; and yes, all that damage was received in PDT/MDT -50% gear as appropriate. Does that count as outside Abyssea?
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rdmcandie wrote:
RDM can attain an almost static 50% reduction to recast time, SCH can over shoot this for a total of 60% reduction under Alacrity (provided you are wearing loafers and keeping dark weather on yourself)

rdmcandie wrote:
MACC is a joke, any job with access to mage gear can hit close the MACC cap on legion mobs, which is why my BRD/RDM can land slow/para/blind despite having only 150 skill (from /RDM.)
#95 Jul 03 2011 at 1:50 AM Rating: Good
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rdmcandie wrote:
Quote:
The discussion was over a specific time when it would be better to be a race other than Taru and I named a scenario, solo meeling.


That is cmpltely irrelevant as a good RDM isn't likely going to be getting hit often, if ever at all. HP is completely irrelevant when you are under the protection of 6 shadows, and Stoneskin that if geared popery ca never be interuptted from recasting.

The scenario that you brought up pertains to limited situations where you may or may not be on the receiving end of a death blow. This is also a redundancy as the longer a mob stays alive the more chance you have of getting into this situation. Having an extra 1-2 nukes or 2-3 cures with the few hundred more MP available as a taru negates this, and for reasons outlined above again being in a death blow situation on RDM where a couple hundred MP might save you is slim to nil, if tha situation arises you are going to be dead anyway in the next melee round. (this is large in part because RDM is incapable of healing through the large chunks of damage some mobs can put out.

In the end it is completely redundant to have this discussion. Taru is the best race statistically for RDM but its advantage is moot in todays game of unlimited MP. HP advantage is moot because in any situation where the HP is "saving" you, you will be dead before you can stoneskin, or heal yourself anyway.

MP>HP of course you would have to play outside of abyssea to know that.



I can't speak for /nin because my nin is only level 20. With dual wield being given to /DNC, I favor /DNC over /nin. Each subjob has their trade offs and I prefer /dnc and /blu over /nin. I will admit that I did not take /nin in consideration because I was talking from my experiences. The trade off for having more WS, mp, abilities is shadows. I can't say which one is better, but if you choose to rather have the WS's, mp and abilities as opposed to the shadows, you will get hit.

Not only did I provide you a scenario where Taru wasn't the best race, I would argue it being the best job statistically for any mage. I would say that depends on what type of mage you are and your focus. Tarus have high int, but low mnd and hp. That maybe good for a BLM, but not necessarily for a WHM. My Elvaan HP helps a lot for Devotions and Martyrs. Of course the trade off is MP, but if you're not having a problem with MP, I would much rather have that HP for devotion and the extra mnd.
#96 Jul 03 2011 at 2:29 AM Rating: Default
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Where is that quote from Red Mage Statskouski?

"I am prepared to argue my point until nothing makes sense anymore. And if that doesn't work, hours upon hours of whining will!"

This applies to both sides of the debate now.

Seriously, get over your chosen method of race/style. Red Mage is variable enough to accommodate for BOTH.

You can argue efficiency until you are blue in the face, the point of the matter is, a dead mob is a dead mob, and if you choose to do that faster by packing more MP as a Taru, or stressing your physical damage as an Elvaan, whatever floats your boat; nobody really cares.

Red Mage alone should not be determinant for your race choice. Even with an extra 200 MP, there's just not enough there to justify a 'best' claim. Not while you gain other benefits in other sections of the job by choosing a different race. Honestly, race is more about identity than it is about stats, because the differences can be made up by gear choice and playstyle changes, which is WHY you get so many arguments here.

Everything about Red Mage is situational, including how you play it. And there's always going to be situations in which one set of stats is not going to help as well vs another set of stats. RDM is so middle of the road in this situation that it really doesn't matter.

Got a lesser Max MP? Manage your MP better, or bring pots.
Got a lesser Max HP? Play a touch more defensively, or bring pots.

The differences covers for margins of error on both sides of the spectrum. As a Hume, I don't worry as much about my Max MP as I do my convert timer, and I just adjust my casting depending on how much I need to do within a specific period of time. Doesn't mean I avoid finishing off Wamouracampa with Blizzard IV when I deem it appropriate solo. But in small groups or parties I typically withhold it until Magic Bursting for better MP efficiency. (Opening skillchains makes up for holding back on nukes to be more supportive.)

Merits? I go for MP mainly because I do NOT push a convert set. (I just swap in what mage gear I got that has +MP on it than dedicating a set to the role.) I don't see the purpose of extra MP that gets lost anyways in the first time I swap casting, unless casting is ALL I'm doing. (Which usually means nuking is a no no to begin with.) I'll save more MP in the long run stacking up Conserve MP on the costly spells. (Cobra does a nice job of giving Magic attack bonus paired with cMP. So it fills in any spare slots that's not, for instance, AF/2/3). In the end, it nets me more spells cast in total than I'd probably get with more 'max mp'. And I learned that tactic by having less than ideal max MP.

So play the way you want. Sweat the details to yourself. I've seen so many different RDMs do things in many different ways, especially when it comes to Melee/Nuking/Curing, etc. Honestly, I'd rather encourage the variety, so long as it's done well and the mission is accomplished and you had a good time, I could care less how you got there.

Burning yourself out over the details is not worth the extra efficiency in any argument.
#97 Jul 03 2011 at 3:21 AM Rating: Decent
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Meriting 80 MP allows you to cast 3% more aggressively, when "riding" convert's timer.
Meriting 80 HP magically turns 3% of your deaths into close calls, always.

Trust me, yes.

Edited, Jul 3rd 2011 5:22am by IcookPizza
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#98 Jul 03 2011 at 7:13 AM Rating: Good
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Hyrist wrote:
Where is that quote from Red Mage Statskouski?

"I am prepared to argue my point until nothing makes sense anymore. And if that doesn't work, hours upon hours of whining will!"

This applies to both sides of the debate now.

Seriously, get over your chosen method of race/style. Red Mage is variable enough to accommodate for BOTH.

You can argue efficiency until you are blue in the face, the point of the matter is, a dead mob is a dead mob, and if you choose to do that faster by packing more MP as a Taru, or stressing your physical damage as an Elvaan, whatever floats your boat; nobody really cares.

Red Mage alone should not be determinant for your race choice. Even with an extra 200 MP, there's just not enough there to justify a 'best' claim. Not while you gain other benefits in other sections of the job by choosing a different race. Honestly, race is more about identity than it is about stats, because the differences can be made up by gear choice and playstyle changes, which is WHY you get so many arguments here.

Everything about Red Mage is situational, including how you play it. And there's always going to be situations in which one set of stats is not going to help as well vs another set of stats. RDM is so middle of the road in this situation that it really doesn't matter.

Got a lesser Max MP? Manage your MP better, or bring pots.
Got a lesser Max HP? Play a touch more defensively, or bring pots.

The differences covers for margins of error on both sides of the spectrum. As a Hume, I don't worry as much about my Max MP as I do my convert timer, and I just adjust my casting depending on how much I need to do within a specific period of time. Doesn't mean I avoid finishing off Wamouracampa with Blizzard IV when I deem it appropriate solo. But in small groups or parties I typically withhold it until Magic Bursting for better MP efficiency. (Opening skillchains makes up for holding back on nukes to be more supportive.)

Merits? I go for MP mainly because I do NOT push a convert set. (I just swap in what mage gear I got that has +MP on it than dedicating a set to the role.) I don't see the purpose of extra MP that gets lost anyways in the first time I swap casting, unless casting is ALL I'm doing. (Which usually means nuking is a no no to begin with.) I'll save more MP in the long run stacking up Conserve MP on the costly spells. (Cobra does a nice job of giving Magic attack bonus paired with cMP. So it fills in any spare slots that's not, for instance, AF/2/3). In the end, it nets me more spells cast in total than I'd probably get with more 'max mp'. And I learned that tactic by having less than ideal max MP.

So play the way you want. Sweat the details to yourself. I've seen so many different RDMs do things in many different ways, especially when it comes to Melee/Nuking/Curing, etc. Honestly, I'd rather encourage the variety, so long as it's done well and the mission is accomplished and you had a good time, I could care less how you got there.

Burning yourself out over the details is not worth the extra efficiency in any argument.


You're absolutely right. I know this conversation derailed into a melee vs nuke, but the entire argument was that Taru isn't the overall best race for RDM in every case. Everything is situational. I just love to argue and it's been a looooooong time since I've been on the RDM forums. Felt good :)
#99 Jul 03 2011 at 1:00 PM Rating: Good
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Almalieque wrote:
Hyrist wrote:
Where is that quote from Red Mage Statskouski?

"I am prepared to argue my point until nothing makes sense anymore. And if that doesn't work, hours upon hours of whining will!"

This applies to both sides of the debate now.

Seriously, get over your chosen method of race/style. Red Mage is variable enough to accommodate for BOTH.

You can argue efficiency until you are blue in the face, the point of the matter is, a dead mob is a dead mob, and if you choose to do that faster by packing more MP as a Taru, or stressing your physical damage as an Elvaan, whatever floats your boat; nobody really cares.

Red Mage alone should not be determinant for your race choice. Even with an extra 200 MP, there's just not enough there to justify a 'best' claim. Not while you gain other benefits in other sections of the job by choosing a different race. Honestly, race is more about identity than it is about stats, because the differences can be made up by gear choice and playstyle changes, which is WHY you get so many arguments here.

Everything about Red Mage is situational, including how you play it. And there's always going to be situations in which one set of stats is not going to help as well vs another set of stats. RDM is so middle of the road in this situation that it really doesn't matter.

Got a lesser Max MP? Manage your MP better, or bring pots.
Got a lesser Max HP? Play a touch more defensively, or bring pots.

The differences covers for margins of error on both sides of the spectrum. As a Hume, I don't worry as much about my Max MP as I do my convert timer, and I just adjust my casting depending on how much I need to do within a specific period of time. Doesn't mean I avoid finishing off Wamouracampa with Blizzard IV when I deem it appropriate solo. But in small groups or parties I typically withhold it until Magic Bursting for better MP efficiency. (Opening skillchains makes up for holding back on nukes to be more supportive.)

Merits? I go for MP mainly because I do NOT push a convert set. (I just swap in what mage gear I got that has +MP on it than dedicating a set to the role.) I don't see the purpose of extra MP that gets lost anyways in the first time I swap casting, unless casting is ALL I'm doing. (Which usually means nuking is a no no to begin with.) I'll save more MP in the long run stacking up Conserve MP on the costly spells. (Cobra does a nice job of giving Magic attack bonus paired with cMP. So it fills in any spare slots that's not, for instance, AF/2/3). In the end, it nets me more spells cast in total than I'd probably get with more 'max mp'. And I learned that tactic by having less than ideal max MP.

So play the way you want. Sweat the details to yourself. I've seen so many different RDMs do things in many different ways, especially when it comes to Melee/Nuking/Curing, etc. Honestly, I'd rather encourage the variety, so long as it's done well and the mission is accomplished and you had a good time, I could care less how you got there.

Burning yourself out over the details is not worth the extra efficiency in any argument.


You're absolutely right. I know this conversation derailed into a melee vs nuke, but the entire argument was that Taru isn't the overall best race for RDM in every case. Everything is situational. I just love to argue and it's been a looooooong time since I've been on the RDM forums. Felt good :)
Almalieque: loves to argue... rdmcandie: loves to argue...

... it's like watching Psyduck and Slowbro have a conversation. You'll be there 'til the stars burn out.
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#100 Jul 03 2011 at 2:34 PM Rating: Good
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Me throwing bogus math around isn't helping.
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#101 Jul 03 2011 at 2:50 PM Rating: Good
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Everything helps...
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