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#102 Jul 03 2011 at 8:15 PM Rating: Default
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IcookPizza wrote:
Meriting 80 MP allows you to cast 3% more aggressively, when "riding" convert's timer.
Meriting 80 HP magically turns 3% of your deaths into close calls, always.

Trust me, yes.

Edited, Jul 3rd 2011 5:22am by IcookPizza


That is totally true, but not the point of the argument. What have you solo'd /BLU in abyssea? I a much more inerested in what alma has solo'd /DNC in abyssea. Have you done any of your own seals? Most of the mobs have high DA TA rate, RDM/NIN solo with a mix of melee/nuking is the best way to solo most of these mobs. Ive done Leg, Head, Hands for RDM solo /NIN as a Taru, with never having an HP issue, and that is soloing in my special blend of melee early kite/nuke late.
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#103 Jul 03 2011 at 10:17 PM Rating: Good
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Taurtau: The other short meat.
Elvaan: Any more arrogant, and you'd be french!
Mithra: Turning men into furrie catgirls since 1997.
Galka: Cause you weren't made fun of enough in high school, fatty.
Hume: Way to go, average man!


Edited, Jul 4th 2011 12:20am by Hyrist
#104 Jul 04 2011 at 8:46 PM Rating: Decent
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rdmcandie wrote:
IcookPizza wrote:
Meriting 80 MP allows you to cast 3% more aggressively, when "riding" convert's timer.
Meriting 80 HP magically turns 3% of your deaths into close calls, always.

Trust me, yes.

Edited, Jul 3rd 2011 5:22am by IcookPizza


That is totally true, but not the point of the argument. What have you solo'd /BLU in abyssea? I a much more inerested in what alma has solo'd /DNC in abyssea. Have you done any of your own seals? Most of the mobs have high DA TA rate, RDM/NIN solo with a mix of melee/nuking is the best way to solo most of these mobs. Ive done Leg, Head, Hands for RDM solo /NIN as a Taru, with never having an HP issue, and that is soloing in my special blend of melee early kite/nuke late.


There's a time and place for everything. Obviously /nin has it's place for certain mobs. I choose not to fight those mobs because I don't have /nin yet. For the less intensive mobs, I prefer /blu or /dnc.
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#105 Jul 05 2011 at 1:54 AM Rating: Good
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Jesus.... that is not a quote of mine I want quoted.

I hope both y'all are the last two people to copy-paste it.

Edited, Jul 5th 2011 3:56am by IcookPizza
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#106 Jul 05 2011 at 2:20 AM Rating: Good
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What have you solo'd /BLU in abyssea?

Nothing besides that Mandy pop NM for Thoo/Thue/Thew/Theu Bomblet (gil). I bought Abyssea very late.
I haven't touched PlayOnline since January 9.

Does that mean I've stopped making daily entries in my personal FFXI notebook?

No.

--EDIT--
Thew

Edited, Jul 5th 2011 4:27am by IcookPizza
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#107 Jul 05 2011 at 9:50 AM Rating: Default
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More than ive done =D I just use my DNC >.>

I gave up on it, tbh RDM sucks at pretty much everything....even soloing. My BLM and DNC see way more mileage. RDM comes out of my house pretty much only to solo amber/te to make myself money.


Edited, Jul 5th 2011 11:52am by rdmcandie
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#108 Jul 05 2011 at 10:34 AM Rating: Decent
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I'm Probably one of the few remaining RDM 'mains' out there. Just too much passion for what the job is capable of to let it go, and I really don't mind the slower killspeed right now.

We'll see what SE does for the job at 99 and if it's not to my liking, I might pick up Blue Mage again.
#109 Jul 05 2011 at 10:45 AM Rating: Default
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If you leveled BLM or DNC you would not touch RDM again. DNC is bad **** melee solo crushes RDM, and BLM solo's circles around RDM now nuking.

I still love my RDM but the job is pretty effing bad in all regards now. (although outside abyssea I am RDM so it is still used a lot by me just not in abyssea.)
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#110 Jul 05 2011 at 10:47 AM Rating: Good
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I think you severely misunderstand what it is about Red Mage I love, but that's ok.
#111 Jul 05 2011 at 12:03 PM Rating: Default
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Hyrist wrote:
I'm Probably one of the few remaining RDM 'mains' out there. Just too much passion for what the job is capable of to let it go, and I really don't mind the slower killspeed right now.

We'll see what SE does for the job at 99 and if it's not to my liking, I might pick up Blue Mage again.


This.. When I get bored as RDM, I break from the game.
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#112 Jul 05 2011 at 1:00 PM Rating: Decent
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rdmcandie wrote:
If you leveled BLM or DNC you would not touch RDM again. DNC is bad **** melee solo crushes RDM, and BLM solo's circles around RDM now nuking.

I still love my RDM but the job is pretty effing bad in all regards now. (although outside abyssea I am RDM so it is still used a lot by me just not in abyssea.)

You sound a lot like a bandwagoner.
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#113 Jul 05 2011 at 2:52 PM Rating: Default
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I guess but having played nothing but RDM for my 7-8 year career kind of entitles me to do so don't you think?
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#114 Jul 05 2011 at 3:09 PM Rating: Decent
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rdmcandie wrote:
I guess but having played nothing but RDM for my 7-8 year career kind of entitles me to do so don't you think?


No. You're not the only one who has played that long. There's nothing wrong with trying different stuff, but completely dropping a job every time something *better* comes out, is a band wagon rider.
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#115 Jul 05 2011 at 5:17 PM Rating: Decent
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No its being useful to myself and others inside abyssea RDM sucks. You can pretend like I did that it doesn't, level something else and play as it you will notice how **** poor RDM actually is. Nw by all means fight your same 6 t1-2 VNM's and feel like you are accomplishing something, nothing wrong with that but RDM is pretty **** **** in abyssea. (As I said above Its my default non abyssea job however since it is actually semi useful outside.)
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#116 Jul 05 2011 at 8:21 PM Rating: Decent
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rdmcandie wrote:
I guess but having played nothing but RDM for my 7-8 year career kind of entitles me to do so don't you think?
So you might've played it back when people were still figuring out what to do with it, and were definitely playing it when it was the belle of the ball and the center of heated debates about what constitutes an overpowered job, but not playing it now that it's only just as powerful or relevant as other jobs?

All that means is you sat on the bandwagon for awhile before you hopped off. Don't act like you've earned any special badges of service.

rdmcandie wrote:
No its being useful to myself and others inside abyssea RDM sucks. You can pretend like I did that it doesn't, level something else and play as it you will notice how **** poor RDM actually is. Nw by all means fight your same 6 t1-2 VNM's and feel like you are accomplishing something, nothing wrong with that but RDM is pretty @#%^ing sh*tty in abyssea. (As I said above Its my default non abyssea job however since it is actually semi useful outside.)

So it's good outside Abyssea, but not-so-much in it?

Considering there's a whole lot of outside-Abyssea content, I'd say it's doing okay, then.
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#117 Jul 05 2011 at 9:09 PM Rating: Good
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but not playing it now that it's only just as powerful or relevant as other jobs?
Thats it its not just as powerful, I wish I could solo half the sh*t on my RDM i can on DNC or as BLM/RDM for that matter in a muc more reasonable time, but it can't so it is essentially useless to me. In my low man its used in 3-4 fights 1 being shin and only because PEB is a gimmick that makes any job god for 3 minutes.

It is not good, its not a bad melee but it gets outshone pretty fast by petty much everything else including WHM and BRD. Its not a bad nuker but is out shone by BLU,BLM,SCH,PUP. Its a terrible healer. Its usefulness is minimal to say the least and its comparability to other jobs isn't far behind.

About the only it is good for is farming gold chests, but since ive been experimenting on DNC all day I get just as many TE's and Golds as on RDM, and I can solo a bunch of bosses while doing it. RDM and DNC aren't even in the same class.

As for my "old days" RDM I don't think you know me very well, I meleed 95% of the time on red mage, including endgame. That wasn't the norm, and I was hardly invited nearly as much as the true prima dona's of the job.

Edited, Jul 5th 2011 11:09pm by rdmcandie

Edited, Jul 5th 2011 11:10pm by rdmcandie
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#118 Jul 06 2011 at 1:20 AM Rating: Decent
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What he is trying to say is that he honest to goddess wasn't a bandwagon player before.

But he's most defiantly a bandwagon player now.

Practically anyone can duo in Abyssea, RDM is no exception to this. Is it highly desired in Abyssea? No. Is it adamantly turned away? Not if you're playing with friends.

RCD you're spouting the same excuses anyone who changes to popular jobs do when they switch. Play around, learn to make RDM more useful in abyssea. Hint, it requires some skilling up.
#119 Jul 06 2011 at 4:48 AM Rating: Decent
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RCD you're spouting the same excuses anyone who changes to popular jobs do when they switch. Play around, learn to make RDM more useful in abyssea. Hint, it requires some skilling up.


There's a big difference between now and then though; the popular jobs for Abyssea are popular because they offer concrete, indisputable advantages over others, not due to the changing whims of the playerbase at large. Skilling up RDM doesn't give you access to aga3s, AMs, 10/13 red procs, 14/15 blue procs, etc.

There's a big difference between bandwagoning, and choosing not to shoot yourself in the foot before you even leave your Mog House. If you have such a huge attachment to a single job that you refuse to use anything else, to the point where you feel it necessary to deride others for not hewing to your narrow view, that's your business, but don't start thinking that it somehow makes you better. Quite the opposite, really.
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rdmcandie wrote:
RDM can attain an almost static 50% reduction to recast time, SCH can over shoot this for a total of 60% reduction under Alacrity (provided you are wearing loafers and keeping dark weather on yourself)

rdmcandie wrote:
MACC is a joke, any job with access to mage gear can hit close the MACC cap on legion mobs, which is why my BRD/RDM can land slow/para/blind despite having only 150 skill (from /RDM.)
#120 Jul 06 2011 at 5:40 AM Rating: Decent
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LyltiaofLakshmi wrote:
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RCD you're spouting the same excuses anyone who changes to popular jobs do when they switch. Play around, learn to make RDM more useful in abyssea. Hint, it requires some skilling up.


There's a big difference between now and then though; the popular jobs for Abyssea are popular because they offer concrete, indisputable advantages over others, not due to the changing whims of the playerbase at large. Skilling up RDM doesn't give you access to aga3s, AMs, 10/13 red procs, 14/15 blue procs, etc.

There's a big difference between bandwagoning, and choosing not to shoot yourself in the foot before you even leave your Mog House. If you have such a huge attachment to a single job that you refuse to use anything else, to the point where you feel it necessary to deride others for not hewing to your narrow view, that's your business, but don't start thinking that it somehow makes you better. Quite the opposite, really.


No one didn't say that you can't level other jobs. There's also a big difference between playing another job in order to have a proc vs playing it because RDM sucks. If your desire of playing RDM completely goes away because it isn't the most desired, for whatever reason, then you're not playing RDM because you like it, but based on how well it's received, which makes you on the bandwagon.

Everyone notices the degradation of utility of RDM in Abyssea.
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#121 Jul 06 2011 at 5:53 AM Rating: Decent
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If your desire of playing RDM completely goes away because it isn't the most desired, for whatever reason, then you're not playing RDM because you like it, but based on how well it's received, which makes you on the bandwagon.


Sure, but the poster in question being accused of bandwagoning said nothing of the sort, so I'm a little confused. All it sounds like to me is a bunch of kids vying for the most RDM street-cred, and it's pretty **** sad.
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rdmcandie wrote:
RDM can attain an almost static 50% reduction to recast time, SCH can over shoot this for a total of 60% reduction under Alacrity (provided you are wearing loafers and keeping dark weather on yourself)

rdmcandie wrote:
MACC is a joke, any job with access to mage gear can hit close the MACC cap on legion mobs, which is why my BRD/RDM can land slow/para/blind despite having only 150 skill (from /RDM.)
#122 Jul 06 2011 at 9:43 AM Rating: Decent
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Hyrist wrote:
Is it adamantly turned away? Not if you're playing with friends.

Read: Absolutely it gets turned away because it really has nothing to offer in the current metagame.

Don't **** us Hyrist. You've got a good supportive group of friends but that doesn't change the reality of Red Mage's current situation.
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I think RDM's neurotic omniscience is sooooooo worth including in any alliance.
#123 Jul 06 2011 at 9:46 AM Rating: Good
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Play around, learn to make RDM more useful in abyssea.


You telling me what RDM can do in abyssea thats rich. Ii am quite sure Ive logged much more time stating the exact same thing over and over again.

Th issue is that it is impractical. It looks great on paper to be able to do a dozen procs with the right sub. But 2 piercing 2 slash , and 4 Blunt. It is impressive to walk around with Cyclone, ED, Seraph Blade, Seraph Strike, Earth Crusher, RLB at the same time.

But it is impractical. 1. Because the majority of those skills are subjob dependant. Using WAR gets you access to it all, but now you miss on Flash, Banish II, Banishga II, Or Drain, Aspir, and taking those reduces your weapons procs.

RDM is cluster **** and not really any fun anymore. Besides the Head piece sucks, if im going to be eye candy while my friends do all the work for me I should at least look good.
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#124 Jul 06 2011 at 10:46 AM Rating: Default
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I swear, I'm going to teach you morons some day to respect the adjectives you pointlessly use.

RDM/PLD alone gets:

6 Red Triggers
15 Yellow Triggers
8 Blue Triggers

Swapping out subjobs changes up that variety, depending on what your group doesn't have, and what you're going for.

That's hardly 'useless' it's just inefficient compared to having the specal-

Oh wait, that's the entity of Red Mage for it's entire @#%^ing history!

Not being the best at something does not make that something useless.


The issue for Red Mage in Abyssea specifically has been the underlining root problem with the class since inception. It's a generalist in a game that calls for specialists. It only gets underscored when people only want to invite only 1 person for WS procs and 1 Person for Magic procs, and everyone else sits around on their **** while the two figure out what they need, instead of speeding along the process by letting those who can contribute on a wide variety of aid do so.

But this does not account at all for lowman situations where even in Abyssea, you can find use for RDM. We're just filling the gaps the party may have, as per usual.

RCD you think I know absolutely nothing about Black Mage and Dancer, when I party with the both of them on almost a nightly basis. They're great jobs, but I'm not going to level them just for one segment of the game, regardless on how people think how 'unfun' RDM is.


The difference between those who play the class for love of the class and those who are called 'bandwagon' is with the ease they denounce the job they once 'loved' over what the flavor of the patch. Thus, you are on the bandwagon.

Cluster **** or not, When you're not hanging with the jobs in vogue all the time (or even if those jobs prefer not to **** themselves out in such a way.) RDM will always find use.


Edited, Jul 6th 2011 12:49pm by Hyrist
#125 Jul 06 2011 at 10:59 AM Rating: Good
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IT IS USELESS.

RDM has at best 2-3 procs on any given day for casting, and 2-3 procs at any given weapon specific time, and 1-2 red procs.

They have access to others, but that is highly irrelevant when Thunder III isn't actually a proc on Ice stagger.

Thats why its mostly useless as a proc job. Others have 4-5 of each type on any given day and time, RDM does not, hence its useless in that capacity.
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#126 Jul 06 2011 at 11:00 AM Rating: Decent
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Hyrist you're full of sh*t.

People are perfectly capable of playing RDM for the love of RDM and simultaneously recognizing its massive shortcomings within the current environment.

Oh teh noes, he leveled a job that wasn't Red Mage. Clearly we must shun him for wanting to play anything other than our beloved job. SHUN HIM! SHUN THE OUTSIDER WHO HAS DONE NOTHING BUT PLAY OUR JOB FOR HIS ENTIRE FFXI CAREER WHICH MIGHT VERY WELL BE LONGER THAN WE'VE EVEN BEEN PLAYING THE JOB!

Edited, Jul 6th 2011 1:01pm by cidbahamut
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IcookPizza wrote:

I think RDM's neurotic omniscience is sooooooo worth including in any alliance.
#127 Jul 06 2011 at 11:16 AM Rating: Good
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Wow. You RDMs are kinda violent these days, aren't you?
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#128 Jul 06 2011 at 11:19 AM Rating: Decent
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LyltiaofLakshmi wrote:
Quote:
If your desire of playing RDM completely goes away because it isn't the most desired, for whatever reason, then you're not playing RDM because you like it, but based on how well it's received, which makes you on the bandwagon.


Sure, but the poster in question being accused of bandwagoning said nothing of the sort, so I'm a little confused. All it sounds like to me is a bunch of kids vying for the most RDM street-cred, and it's pretty **** sad.


RDD wrote:
Thats it its not just as powerful, I wish I could solo half the sh*t on my RDM i can on DNC or as BLM/RDM for that matter in a muc more reasonable time, but it can't so it is essentially useless to me.


To me, that sounds like "RDM isn't nearly as desirable as these other jobs, so it's useless to me."
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#129 Jul 06 2011 at 11:33 AM Rating: Default
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"RDM isn't nearly as desirable as these other jobs, so it's useless to me."


It has nothing to do with being desired by others. I played as a melee RDM the majority of the time, that wasn't desirable. It has to do with time, my DNC can solo 5 Khalamari to my RDM's 3. In this immediate time that is 100x more useful to me. That means I get 2 more chances for my neck to drop.
It can solo PI's to sell way faster, earns TE's just as well, gets amber just as easy. It is clearly superior for the capacity in which I require it for....and that is 100% my opinion on something being desired not the communities.

BLM is used because as I said above we lost our BLM, since mine was the closest I took it up. Out of necessity for the success of our group.


And to be quite honest I was sick of being the clearly useless job there, leeching pretty much off my friends work. Something about that just didn't seem right.

So I got 2 things that solved both my personal issues with RDM, it isn't a spectacular soloer any more, and I am actively contributing something to my lowman group that benefits all of us, unlike before when I tried to look busy doing nothing, and like I said there are situations that RDM is clearly better in, and it gets used its fair hare of the time.

But really you and Hyrist need to drop this fantasy that RDM is at all useful or particularly good at anything at all (which it isn't).

Edited, Jul 6th 2011 1:34pm by rdmcandie
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#130 Jul 06 2011 at 11:36 AM Rating: Decent
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cidbahamut wrote:
Hyrist you're full of sh*t.

People are perfectly capable of playing RDM for the love of RDM and simultaneously recognizing its massive shortcomings within the current environment.

Oh teh noes, he leveled a job that wasn't Red Mage. Clearly we must shun him for wanting to play anything other than our beloved job. SHUN HIM! SHUN THE OUTSIDER WHO HAS DONE NOTHING BUT PLAY OUR JOB FOR HIS ENTIRE FFXI CAREER WHICH MIGHT VERY WELL BE LONGER THAN WE'VE EVEN BEEN PLAYING THE JOB!

Edited, Jul 6th 2011 1:01pm by cidbahamut



Here's the thing, it's the way he's coming off. He has the right to complain about the "shortcomings" of RDM. He can even say that he's been playing other jobs for diversity. But, when he comes off saying how useless RDM is as a job and how much better other jobs are doing things that RDMs are fully capable of doing, you will sound "seasonal".

The concept of RDM not being the master in anything has ALWAYS been the history of RDM. If the only reason why you're playing DNC over RDM is because it can solo better, then you'll playing off of utility as opposed to the actual job, which makes you band wagoner.

There's nothing "wrong" with that, but don't pretend otherwise. Just change over to what ever job simplifies your playing and don't comment about your previous jobs as being "useless".
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#131 Jul 06 2011 at 11:42 AM Rating: Decent
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RDD wrote:
It has nothing to do with being desired by others. I played as a melee RDM the majority of the time, that wasn't desirable. It has to do with time, my DNC can solo 5 Khalamari to my RDM's 3. In this immediate time that is 100x more useful to me. That means I get 2 more chances for my neck to drop.
It can solo PI's to sell way faster, earns TE's just as well, gets amber just as easy. It is clearly superior for the capacity in which I require it for....and that is 100% my opinion on something being desired not the communities.


That's what I meant by desirable. Not necessarily desirable to others, but to you as well. I admit that I used the wrong wording initially, but I corrected it in the quote you provided. It isn't desirable to you because you get a whole TWO additional kills.

That's perfectly cool, but at this time, you're not playing for the love of the job, but what can give you the best outcome at the time. Which means, if SE were to come out with a patch that allowed RDMs to solo 6 Khalamari's to your DNC 5, then you would switch back to RDM, which by definition makes you a band wagoner.

That's cool, just don't pretend otherwise.

Quote:
And to be quite honest I was sick of being the clearly useless job there, leeching pretty much off my friends work. Something about that just didn't seem right.


You have to differentiate between the job being useless and you being useless.
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#132 Jul 06 2011 at 11:47 AM Rating: Decent
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All I'm hearing is "play Red Mage or we will give you a hard time for playing jobs that can actually contribute in the current metagame because we are petty and spiteful."
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IcookPizza wrote:

I think RDM's neurotic omniscience is sooooooo worth including in any alliance.
#133 Jul 06 2011 at 11:50 AM Rating: Decent
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SE were to come out with a patch that allowed RDMs to solo 6 Khalamari's to your DNC 5, then you would switch back to RDM, which by definition makes you a band wagoner.


No I don't think it does, it makes me smart. Probably smarter than you. Abyssea time isn't free, even though I have over 400 stones, I burn them like candy on NM's, Soloing faster allows me to get the items I want/need, with time remaining to do stuff with/for my friends on a useful job to help them/us out. Then at the end of the day when we get to big nasty stuff I pull out my RDM because 40-50K Sanguine Blades rock sh*t pretty good.

So you don't really talking about. RDM capacity is useless because it is too slow, and not equipped with useful mechanics. However it is hella useful in many situations.

Obviously you have not played another job at 90 to experience just how useless and mundane RDM really is. You should you would likely have more fun actually getting sh*t accomplished, instead of pretending or leeching it.

I really don't think you know what bandwagon jumping really is. Im a red wings fan, I cheered San Jose on after they won, because Joe Thornton is from my home town, and if they won it would drastically increase my chances of seeing the Stanley Cup outside the HHOF. Does that make me a band wagon jumper? (even though the Red Wings still remain my favorite team, just like RDM is my favorite job, but both were useless to me at somepoint).

Edited, Jul 6th 2011 2:03pm by rdmcandie
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#134 Jul 06 2011 at 1:11 PM Rating: Decent
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Swapping out subjobs changes up that variety, depending on what your group doesn't have, and what you're going for.


Except, nobody who has any clue whatsoever about Abyssea takes a group in which RDM's procs would be nothing more than redundant.

Quote:
The difference between those who play the class for love of the class and those who are called 'bandwagon' is with the ease they denounce the job they once 'loved' over what the flavor of the patch. Thus, you are on the bandwagon.


No, you're **** stupid. I see a lot of this 'love' word being tossed around, and it's kind of disturbing. If you think 'love' means ignoring something's obvious flaws and shortcomings in a particular situation, well, I wish you luck in RL.

Quote:
The concept of RDM not being the master in anything has ALWAYS been the history of RDM.


No, actually, this has pretty much NEVER been the case for RDM. It has always been the best soloer due to its' survivability, and until the Afflatus patch, it was undisputably the best healer. If anything, RDM is more balanced against other jobs now than it ever has been; the downside is that RDM's true specialty of Enfeebling is just not very necessary at this point.

Basically, the only real use for RDM at this point is for soloing insanely powerful things that no other job would stand a chance against; anything else, sure RDM can be useful, but whatever it is, guaranteed, another job will do it faster/better. Choosing not to use RDM in these situations in favor of another job that will get the job done faster does not make one less of a RDM, or mean that you 'love' the job less than the guy who stubbornly uses RDM for everything (although, it certainly makes you smarter than them).

Hyrist, you especially, wow. After reading a month of your posts highlighting how little you know about the game at this point, it's kinda amusing to see you getting all high-handed with people like you're King **** of **** Mountain. A little knowledge is indeed a dangerous thing, it seems.
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rdmcandie wrote:
RDM can attain an almost static 50% reduction to recast time, SCH can over shoot this for a total of 60% reduction under Alacrity (provided you are wearing loafers and keeping dark weather on yourself)

rdmcandie wrote:
MACC is a joke, any job with access to mage gear can hit close the MACC cap on legion mobs, which is why my BRD/RDM can land slow/para/blind despite having only 150 skill (from /RDM.)
#135 Jul 06 2011 at 1:33 PM Rating: Excellent
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Erecia wrote:
Wow. You RDMs are kinda violent these days, aren't you?

You take that back or I'll violence you!
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#136 Jul 06 2011 at 3:14 PM Rating: Decent
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Quote:
Basically, the only real use for RDM at this point is for soloing insanely powerful things that no other job would stand a chance against; anything else, sure RDM can be useful, but whatever it is, guaranteed, another job will do it faster/better. Choosing not to use RDM in these situations in favor of another job that will get the job done faster does not make one less of a RDM, or mean that you 'love' the job less than the guy who stubbornly uses RDM for everything (although, it certainly makes you smarter than them).


Pretty much this its the same reason I use my RDM to brew and not my DNC or BLM, it is better equipped to get the most from a brew. Its also better equipped for nonabyssea related events (such as voidwatch). But that is besides the point.

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#137 Jul 06 2011 at 3:15 PM Rating: Decent
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High handed? No, **** off at the negative connotation everyone has vs Red Mage? **** straight.

RCD especially knows how nasty I can get to those who are like "lolzrdmsux" when it can be made to work. He was here, less than two years ago, nailing people as well for the blue mage argument.

And here he is on the bandwagon preaching again for the other team.

I'll put it bluntly, so you all understand. Red Mage is NOT USELESS. Piratical when you have 10-15 jobs leveled to 90? Yes. But this is the same argument that was made against Red Mage from it's inception. The only difference is, is that it's no longer in vogue as a Cure/Haste bot.

Nothing Has changed about the job in 7-8 years. And that's part of the problem.

That doesn't make the job useless. It's black or white for them. You can argue the problems with what uses we have until nothing makes sense anymore, but that still does not negate the use, that just acknowledges the difficulty.

"Go Dancer and Black mage and you'll never touch Red Mage again."

This is bandwagon, and it's the exact point where RCD crossed the line with me. You do not tell me what jobs I should play, period, especially in the forum dedicated to the job you're insulting. So what that with the right Atmas, BLM and DNC and BLU can devastate RDM in solo. I'm fairly sure Blue Mage can blow my RDM out of the water when it comes to soloing my Sword Trials too. I didn't play Red Mage to be the best at everything. And if my class has difficulty being useful in specific areas, then I need to adjust my playstyle to make the most of what I can offer. I have friends that are supportive of that, and that is why they remain friends. We play our jobs for love of the job, not love of 'this is the best performance for this event'.

If I do take up another job, likely blue mage, it's for love of the job's premise, not it's performance.

No matter how broken Red Mage is, I still love the job and I still find ways of making it work. That's not saying it's not broken and in desperate need of some unique contribution that's valid in Abyssea as well. That's telling the nitwits to quit with the retarded absolutist terms that I have always hated no matter what job was out of style. I've hated every single 'lol' stigma in this game with the same amount of passion. It's absolutely nothing new, and you guys should not be shocked by it.

It's a matter of pushing individual performance vs job performance. And if you're going to go so far and insult the job that you've enjoyed for years on end, you're going to get called a bandwagon player for it. Sorry, them's the breaks.
#138 Jul 06 2011 at 3:59 PM Rating: Default
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Hyrist wrote:

RCD especially knows how nasty I can get to those who are like "lolzrdmsux" when it can be made to work.

See that last part there? I'm not sure you quite grasp the significance of it. If it has to be "made to work", that means it doesn't function adequately under normal circumstances and suggests that something is wrong.

Hyrist wrote:

And here he is on the bandwagon preaching again for the other team.

Or maybe he's just coming to terms with the reality of the situation.

Hyrist wrote:

I'll put it bluntly, so you all understand. Red Mage is NOT USELESS.

A DD with nothing but auto-attack for less damage than every other job in the game wouldn't be entirely useless either. That doesn't mean you should be defending it as being USEFUL.

Hyrist wrote:

Nothing Has changed about the job in 7-8 years. And that's part of the problem.

No, but the metagame changed and that directly affects the utility of the job.

Hyrist wrote:

That doesn't make the job useless. It's black or white for them. You can argue the problems with what uses we have until nothing makes sense anymore, but that still does not negate the use, that just acknowledges the difficulty.

In a world where superior options are plentiful and readily available, why would a party choose the inferior option?

Hyrist wrote:

"Go Dancer and Black mage and you'll never touch Red Mage again."

This is bandwagon, and it's the exact point where RCD crossed the line with me. You do not tell me what jobs I should play, period, especially in the forum dedicated to the job you're insulting.

And who the **** are you to say you're the authority on what he should be playing and what constitutes a bandwagon player? You want to know what's insulting? You hurling the term "bandwagon" at someone who's played Red Mage for his whole **** FFXI career.

Hyrist wrote:

I didn't play Red Mage to be the best at everything. And if my class has difficulty being useful in specific areas, then I need to adjust my playstyle to make the most of what I can offer. I have friends that are supportive of that, and that is why they remain friends. We play our jobs for love of the job, not love of 'this is the best performance for this event'.

This is pretty much a textbook definition of a scrub. You can bang on all day about how you can "make it work", but at the end of the day, we're still playing an inferior job for the current metagame. It's ok to do that, but you have to recognize and accept that without sticking your head in the sand and screaming "La la la I can't hear you" every time someone brings it up.

Hyrist wrote:

No matter how broken Red Mage is, I still love the job and I still find ways of making it work. That's not saying it's not broken and in desperate need of some unique contribution that's valid in Abyssea as well. That's telling the nitwits to quit with the retarded absolutist terms that I have always hated no matter what job was out of style. I've hated every single 'lol' stigma in this game with the same amount of passion. It's absolutely nothing new, and you guys should not be shocked by it.

Agreed. loljob stigmas are bad, but you need to remember that there is a reason they exist.

Hyrist wrote:

It's a matter of pushing individual performance vs job performance. And if you're going to go so far and insult the job that you've enjoyed for years on end, you're going to get called a bandwagon player for it. Sorry, them's the breaks.

And you're still going to be wrong about it.

TL;DR: Hyrist has his pants on his head. Leveling another job is not the same as riding the bandwagon.
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IcookPizza wrote:

I think RDM's neurotic omniscience is sooooooo worth including in any alliance.
#139 Jul 06 2011 at 5:19 PM Rating: Default
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TL;DR: Hyrist has his pants on his head. Leveling another job is not the same as riding the bandwagon.


Especially when the main use job (DNC) is hardly a popular job people shot for, and the BLM, well ive explained that one, shell needs procs, ill do procs, what kind of friend would I be if I didn't fill the void hmm? Especially after 4 months of essentially leeching abyssea.
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#140 Jul 06 2011 at 5:35 PM Rating: Good
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Not to derail, but shouldn't we be thankful for bandwagoners, anyway?

For every person that leaves RDM for another job(s), Square Enix is that much closer to updating RDM.

--EDIT--
For whatever its worth, sometimes you have to look past RCD's exaggerations (God bless him) to see the constructiveness in what he's saying.

Edited, Jul 6th 2011 7:42pm by IcookPizza
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#141 Jul 06 2011 at 6:47 PM Rating: Default
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For every person that leaves RDM for another job(s), Square Enix is that much closer to updating RDM.


7 years of that job waxing in popularity (then sharply waning) and degrading in utility, and massive arguments surrounding the job resulted in a single update that was hardly game changing. The level cap increase thus far has only provided us with tier ups (Nukes and Refresh only) and a JA we should have had level 30, five years ago. Only thing we can raise an eyebrow to is Gain Spells, but Boost Spells drown that out completely. I'm not hoping for some miracle patch that suddenly makes us popular in Abyssea. The way of making RDM's trademark contributions useful in Abyssea involves some rather substantial mechanic changes, to Abyssea or the job. (Can start by removing EX restrictions on weapons, period. That'd actually help a lot of jobs.)

Quote:
For whatever its worth, sometimes you have to look past RCD's exaggerations (God bless him) to see the constructiveness in what he's saying.


Yet nobody would pay me the same kindness?

Sorry but the constructiveness in what he is saying is "Don't Play Red Mage."

There is no argument other than that. I called him a bandwagon player for exaggerating the way he has and nothing more. Every bloody argument people have put up here is valid until they say something absolute terms, in which case I get very angry because all of it is overblown **** without any mention of solutions (Besides chicken-sh*tting out and playing a different job).

Would be nice if one of them chimed in "Hey our proc list sucks, SE could make that better by making our Merit Spells proc, or give job specific WSes a high chance of procing in Abyssea." Or "We've got a short Blue/Red list, best to try out your NMs during this day/hour if you're stuck playing RDM." No, there's no ideas, there's no constructive thinking, no improvisation. It's just hate, and I'm sick of that attitude in general, no matter what community, no matter what subject. There's always the haters ruining an otherwise good time.

I get it, Abyssea without getting Cure V left a bitter taste in a lot of RDM's mouths. But unless you really test and explore the problems/difficulties in depth, you're never going to come out with anything but a shallow solution to recommend. In the meanwhile, those that do stick to RDM have to make do. Don't contribute to their ****.




Edited, Jul 6th 2011 8:54pm by Hyrist
#142 Jul 06 2011 at 7:13 PM Rating: Decent
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I get it, Abyssea without getting Cure V left a bitter taste in a lot of RDM's mouths. But unless you really test and explore the problems/difficulties in depth, you're never going to come out with anything but a shallow solution to recommend. In the meanwhile, those that do stick to RDM have to make do. Don't contribute to their ****.


Shallow solution? Shallow is being the douche in the group that everyone knows is useless but because they are your friends probably don't say anything. That is Shallow, you contribute next to nothing to a group, yet likely reap the rewards of their hardconsistent work. Maybe that BLM wants to play his PUP sometime, or the WAR play WHM. You being shallow is limiting the ability for your friends to possibly do something more enjoyable and still maintain reletive success in abyssea.

Hate to say but you are being a douche and I was the same way until about a month ago when I thought you know what Im leeching of my friends, so I can have "fun". Call it bandwagoning if you want. Your the leech who doesn't see himself as a leech.

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#143 Jul 06 2011 at 7:51 PM Rating: Decent
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rdmcandie wrote:
Call it bandwagoning if you want. Your the leech who doesn't see himself as a leech.


This is the crux of the problem. Red Mage brings absolutely nothing to the table anymore.
Nothing.

Zero. Zip. Zilch. Nada. The big goose egg.

We used to bring MP endurance and the odd enfeeble. Now everyone has MP endurance, enfeebles are flat out resisted or unnecessary and the rest of our bag of tricks which was previously adequate is now woefully inferior to everyone else's.

What precisely are you contributing to your group Hyrist? Because whenever I take Red Mage to Abyssea it just ends with me sitting on my hands or throwing a handful of spot cures over the entire battle. There's not much left for us to do in the current metagame. So again, what exactly are you bringing to the table as a Red Mage? Because I know what I'm bringing to the table: a warm body to fill a slot and swipe loot.
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IcookPizza wrote:

I think RDM's neurotic omniscience is sooooooo worth including in any alliance.
#144 Jul 06 2011 at 8:05 PM Rating: Decent
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I feel my decisions were logical RDM is useful in specific instances only, my group is better off as a whole with me having a tank/solo job, and blm. Infact for the NIN's THF's DNC's in the shell we duo NM's as BLM/WHM and NIN/DNC or others /NIN. That is 4 procs and more then enough healing. Much better than the 2 Procs and same healing I provided on RDM. It makes sense to me because well, I leeched 90% of abyssea so far, bought time I paid it back.
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#145 Jul 06 2011 at 8:28 PM Rating: Decent
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cidbahamut wrote:
All I'm hearing is "play Red Mage or we will give you a hard time for playing jobs that can actually contribute in the current metagame because we are petty and spiteful."


Then you're not paying attention.

RDD wrote:
No I don't think it does, it makes me smart. Probably smarter than you. Abyssea time isn't free, even though I have over 400 stones, I burn them like candy on NM's, Soloing faster allows me to get the items I want/need, with time remaining to do stuff with/for my friends on a useful job to help them/us out. Then at the end of the day when we get to big nasty stuff I pull out my RDM because 40-50K Sanguine Blades rock sh*t pretty good.

Obviously you have not played another job at 90 to experience just how useless and mundane RDM really is. You should you would likely have more fun actually getting sh*t accomplished, instead of pretending or leeching it.




That's exactly what a band wagoner is. It has nothing to do with "being smart". I leveled WHM because I got tired of constantly main healing as a RDM knowing that WHM does it sooo much better. Even so, there were times where I preferred to main heal with RDM because I wanted to be RDM and I knew I could pull it off.

There's actually nothing wrong with that, but when you label a job as "useless" because it only kills 3 mobs instead of 5 mobs..... you're a band wagoner.

You're not playing jobs for your joy of the job but whatever seems most useful. That's ok, but that's what a band wagoner is. You jump ship to another job when the other job becomes slightly better.

There are times to "jump ship", but a difference of 2 mobs doesn't classify for that time especially for a job that wasn't meant to be the best at anything to start off with.

Lyltia wrote:
No, actually, this has pretty much NEVER been the case for RDM. It has always been the best soloer due to its' survivability, and until the Afflatus patch, it was undisputably the best healer. If anything, RDM is more balanced against other jobs now than it ever has been; the downside is that RDM's true specialty of Enfeebling is just not very necessary at this point.


Oh, my mistake. I was referencing to Final Fantasy, what series are you talking about?

RDM is and has always been the Jack of All Trades, Master of None. You are confusing being the Master of something vs being the best suited for something. I clarified that years ago. All you have to do is look at every other job in the game with their mastery and compare to RDM and it's so called "mastery". You'll see an evident lack of support.

RDM was never a Master of Solo, just the best suited class to get the job done. There's a big difference. The only things that kept BLM from blowing RDM out of the water on solo were refresh and convert.

Well, refresh is not a "survivor" tool, but a support tool. Else, it would be self-cast only like many of the other RDM spells. That only leaves convert. Given the extra amount of mp of BLM and higher tier spells and access to items, that could easily be made up.

The best healer? LOL.. WHM is and has always been the best healer in the game. Once again, you're confusing being the Master of something vs the best suited. People only favored RDM because you could free up a slot in the party. That doesn't constitute being a "better healer". That's the only reason why I leveled WHM in the first place, because it was a much better healer.

Don't even get me started on that whole "Master of Enfeebling" nonsense...

Lyltia wrote:
Basically, the only real use for RDM at this point is for soloing insanely powerful things that no other job would stand a chance against; anything else, sure RDM can be useful, but whatever it is, guaranteed, another job will do it faster/better. Choosing not to use RDM in these situations in favor of another job that will get the job done faster does not make one less of a RDM, or mean that you 'love' the job less than the guy who stubbornly uses RDM for everything (although, it certainly makes you smarter than them).


It's not about being stubborn. You can and should play other jobs. The thing is, if you don't have the slightest tingling to play your RDM solely because it can't do x,y or z better than some other job, then you're a band wagoner, plain and simple. Just man up and accept it as the truth. Stop trying to rationalize it, because the more you try, the more you prove that is indeed what you are.

If my group is lacking elemental power, I would play BLM. If my group is lacking healing power, I would play WHM. If my group is efficient in either but still desires extra, I'm playing RDM. That's the entire purpose of RDM.

With tier IV spells and atmas, I actually feel MORE USEFUL than ever. My damage has increased dramatically and I don't have to worry about refresh. So, I'm still healing with much much more damage.

Or I could just heal with my WHM.......

Icook wrote:
Not to derail, but shouldn't we be thankful for bandwagoners, anyway?


Typically I am.. BLU and SCH were some of the best updates for RDM
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Almalieque wrote:

I'm biased against statistics
#146 Jul 06 2011 at 8:41 PM Rating: Decent
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I was going to do a point-by-point reply, but ugh. Same sh*t, different thread, seriously. Hyrist, believe me, all the facts are against you here. You are more than welcome to play however you want, but if you have friends that choose to indulge you with this nonsense, well, they are either just as clueless as you or even moreso.

If RCD can finally come around on this, anybody can. (Welcome to the Dark Side, btw) It's time to put away childish things and take a long, objective look at the situation, and stop wasting everyone's time (and most importantly, yours and your friends).

Quote:
RDM was never a Master of Solo, just the best suited class to get the job done. There's a big difference. The only things that kept BLM from blowing RDM out of the water on solo were refresh and convert.

Well, refresh is not a "survivor" tool, but a support tool. Else, it would be self-cast only like many of the other RDM spells. That only leaves convert. Given the extra amount of mp of BLM and higher tier spells and access to items, that could easily be made up.

The best healer? LOL.. WHM is and has always been the best healer in the game. Once again, you're confusing being the Master of something vs the best suited. People only favored RDM because you could free up a slot in the party. That doesn't constitute being a "better healer". That's the only reason why I leveled WHM in the first place, because it was a much better healer.


You have got to be **** kidding me. Really? Really? Just stop before you embarrass yourself further, please.

Edited, Jul 6th 2011 10:49pm by LyltiaofLakshmi
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rdmcandie wrote:
RDM can attain an almost static 50% reduction to recast time, SCH can over shoot this for a total of 60% reduction under Alacrity (provided you are wearing loafers and keeping dark weather on yourself)

rdmcandie wrote:
MACC is a joke, any job with access to mage gear can hit close the MACC cap on legion mobs, which is why my BRD/RDM can land slow/para/blind despite having only 150 skill (from /RDM.)
#147 Jul 06 2011 at 8:49 PM Rating: Excellent
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I might not be casting much of anything in Abyssea as RDM...
but I'm pointing fingers, shouting orders at people, ranting of mid-battle strategy changes, etc.

I'm not sure why, but those things come easiest to me when I'm on RDM.
(might have something to do with the "not casting much of anything" thing)
You won't find me leveling another job anytime soon!

--EDIT--
Suck it.

Edited, Jul 6th 2011 10:51pm by IcookPizza
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#148 Jul 06 2011 at 8:57 PM Rating: Decent
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Hyrist wrote:
Sorry but the constructiveness in what he is saying is "Don't Play Red Mage."


This..

Hyrist wrote:
Would be nice if one of them chimed in "Hey our proc list sucks, SE could make that better by making our Merit Spells proc, or give job specific WSes a high chance of procing in Abyssea." Or "We've got a short Blue/Red list, best to try out your NMs during this day/hour if you're stuck playing RDM." No, there's no ideas, there's no constructive thinking, no improvisation.


This also.

Any non-band wagoner would show interest and concern for improvement on how to make it better, not "this is job is completely useless, off to another job"

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#149 Jul 06 2011 at 9:01 PM Rating: Decent
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Lyltiao wrote:
You have got to be @#%^ing kidding me. Really? Really? Just stop before you embarrass yourself further, please.


If you got the cojones, then bring it.

I won that argument years ago back when RDMs with a sword were crucified, so I'm 134% positive that I would obliterate any nonsense you throw my way now...

Go ahead, leap.

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Demea wrote:
Almalieque wrote:

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#150 Jul 06 2011 at 9:13 PM Rating: Decent
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I could give two **** about whatever you think you proved years ago. All that matters now is that you are spewing some seriously flawed **** here and now, and I'm calling you on it.

I don't know what you solo on RDM, but it sounds like some pretty **** weak **** to me. Given that your NIN subjob is level 20, I'm going to go ahead and assume you've soloed nothing truly dangerous and/or impressive, so your opinions on the subject (besides being self-defeating in themselves) are completely invalid.

If you wanna debate how good RDM is at farming trash mobs or killing low-tier NMs, go find somebody else's time to waste.
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rdmcandie wrote:
RDM can attain an almost static 50% reduction to recast time, SCH can over shoot this for a total of 60% reduction under Alacrity (provided you are wearing loafers and keeping dark weather on yourself)

rdmcandie wrote:
MACC is a joke, any job with access to mage gear can hit close the MACC cap on legion mobs, which is why my BRD/RDM can land slow/para/blind despite having only 150 skill (from /RDM.)
#151 Jul 06 2011 at 9:14 PM Rating: Decent
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Almalieque wrote:

Lyltia wrote:
No, actually, this has pretty much NEVER been the case for RDM. It has always been the best soloer due to its' survivability, and until the Afflatus patch, it was undisputably the best healer. If anything, RDM is more balanced against other jobs now than it ever has been; the downside is that RDM's true specialty of Enfeebling is just not very necessary at this point.


Oh, my mistake. I was referencing to Final Fantasy, what series are you talking about?

Oh for ****'s sake. This is why I hate every other Red Mage I meet. You're all living with this delusion that Red Mage in FFXI is the same Red Mage as in every other offline Final Fantasy game.

It's not.

Wake the **** up and come to terms with that cold harsh reality or go level a job that's better suited to what you're looking for.
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IcookPizza wrote:

I think RDM's neurotic omniscience is sooooooo worth including in any alliance.
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