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Multi-hit Magian Swords..which to choose?Follow

#1 Dec 14 2010 at 9:04 PM Rating: Good
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My roommate and I duo Dominion Ops regularly for xp, and for fun I set an Atma of Alpha and Omega and when triple attack ended up procing, it was a fun time. Needless to say, multi-hit weapons are achievable through Magian trials, and I was curious if anyone could give me a hint as to which one was considered "the best" in terms of the multi-hit weapons. Currently there's the following:

Khanda +2: DMG 29, Delay 252 (DMG+19, Delay+12, Occ. atk. twice)
Khanda +2: DMG 29, Delay 252 (Delay+12, Occ. atk. 2-4 times)
Khanda +2: DMG 29, Delay 252 (DMG+26, "Dbl.Atk."+10)

Which one is the optimal "RDM multi-hit sword" of the bunch?
#2 Dec 14 2010 at 9:39 PM Rating: Good
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Probably 2-4, but i don't know proc rates for it.
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#3 Dec 14 2010 at 10:58 PM Rating: Decent
Joyeuse. Has the Best DoT and TP gain rate. The +DMG Occ 2x has higher DPS but less TP gained, the Occ Atk 2-3 has higher TP gain but less DPS.

Unsure about the 2-4 yet as I have not see any info on it. Granted it is likely a little bit better DPS and a little bit better TP gain than the 2-3.

TLDR.

Joyeuse.
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#4 Dec 15 2010 at 12:16 AM Rating: Good
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There might actually be a case for the DA% sword under proper conditions. While Joyeuse is still a good choice, its multi-hit property can't benefit your other weapon like the DA% would. Toss on Fighter's Roll with a WAR in party along with other DA gear and Atma and breaking 40% DA rate for both weapons isn't unheard of. This then carries over to WS, too, which again Joyeuse doesn't.
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#5 Dec 15 2010 at 1:08 AM Rating: Decent
The biggest issue with Magian Weapons is their choice of DMG or TP arguably the 10% DA weapon under the right circumstances is likely the closest to competing with the Joyeuse.

That weapon with 10% DA gets

29+26*1.10/252*60 = 14.4 DPS
6.7*1.1 = 7.37/252*60 = 1.75TP/s

Joyeuse Gets
36*1.45/224*60 = 13.98DPS
6.05*1.45 = 8.7/224*60 = 2.33TP/s

you get 14.4/13.98 = 1.03 = 3% more DoT at a loss of 2.33/1.75 = 1.33 33% TP gain.

Adding more DA still does not favor the DA weapon.

55*1.40/252*60 = 18.33
36*1.75/224*60 = 16.87

18.33/16.87 = 1.08 8% more DPS

6.7*1.4/252*60 = 2.23
6.05*1.75/224*60 = 2.83

2.83/2.23 = 1.26 26% less TP.

Now the weapon gets 8% more DPS and has a 10% larger chance to DA on a weapon skill. In the end overall the Joyeuse still pumps out 6% more weaponskills and therefor damage.

For sake of completion adding enspells in.

55+20*1.40/252*60 = 19.76
36+20*1.75/224*60 = 19.01

19.76/19.01 = 1.03 3%

Combined with the above TP numbers the Joyeuse is now 9% ahead in overall damage output.

For overall performance the Joyeuse is still or most effective weapon, it has reasonably decent DPS, and Great TP returns. Until the factors of the new 2-4 weapon are made public I firmly believe there is no better offhand weapon. The delay on Magian weapons is almost a full second longer than the joyeuse, it hampers them in overall production.

Not only that it takes much less time to aquire a joyeuse than it does any of the magian weapons Id imagine Charbydis is relatively uncamped on most servers.

As such before your next question, unless you have CDC, using a Dagger (either the new one with 40D, or the other newer one with WS latent mercy stroke or baring those the Blau Dolch) will be your best choice for a mainhand. Again due to overall dps/delay numbers.





Edited, Dec 15th 2010 2:09am by rdmcandie
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#6 Dec 15 2010 at 3:57 AM Rating: Good
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Quote:
The delay on Magian weapons is almost a full second longer than the joyeuse,


My Red Mage offhands Khanda and mainhands Badelaire. This gives me a total of 500 delay. Offhanding Joyeuse would give me 460 delay.

Add in dual wield 3, suppa, the haste spell, and haste from gear:

500*0.7*0.63=220.5
vrs
460*0.7*0.63=202.86

That's a difference of 18 delay, which only makes Badelaire/Joyeuse 30 milliseconds faster. While that is an 8% increase in the time in between swings, I really don't see how you can say 1.45 weapon would create more damage and TP then a 1.7 weapon.

Lets look at the actual TP gained from each after Dual Wield 3 and Suppanomimi. You're looking at

500*.0.7 vrs 460*0.7
350 vrs 322

This would put them both in the lowest possible catagory for TP gained, which is

5.0 + [(Delay - 180) * 1.5 / 180]

Badelaire/Khanda

350/2=175
5.0 + [(175 - 180) * 1.5 / 180]
4.9/swing and with 6 STP from Rajas/Brutal that'd give you
5.1/swing

5.1*(5.1*1.7)=13.7 average TP/round for 8 rounds average needed total to hit 100tp, and 7 rounds average after. So, a seven-hit build. If you take out the 1.7 that would make 71.4tp instead of 95.9, which means offhanding Khanda+1 is generating you 25% more swings.

Badelaire/Joyeuse

322/2=161
5.0 + [(161 - 180) * 1.5 / 180]
4.8/swing, and with 6 STP from Rajas/Brutal that'd give you
5.0/swing

5.0*(5.0*1.45)=12.2 average TP/round for 9 rounds average to reach 100tp, and 8 rounds after your WS. So, an eight-hit build. If you take out the 1.45 that would make 80TP granted instead of 97.6, which means offhanding Joyeuse is giving you 18% more swings.

Time to hit 100TP

My RDM has the Haste spell and 22% in Haste gear.

500*0.7*0.63=220 Delay with Badelaire/Khanda
460*0.7*0.63=202 Delay with Badelaire/Joyeuse

That makes Joyeuse 8% faster, but only .30 Milliseconds faster, which is not really that big of a deal.

It'll take you 8 average rounds to hit 100tp with Joyeuse compared to Khanda's 7. Doing the math in total delay/time:

Badelaire/Joyeuse 1616 total delay for 100tp, 26.9 seconds to reach 100tp
Badelaire/Khanda 1540 total delay for 100tp, 25.6 seconds to reach 100tp

Which means Badelaire/Khanda hits 100tp 4.8% faster, and therefor could potentially generate 4.8% more weaponskills.

Damage over time

Again, gonna repaste this bit
500*0.7*0.63=220 Delay with Badelaire/Khanda
460*0.7*0.63=202 Delay with Badelaire/Joyeuse

Every 3.67 seconds i'm swinging 2.7 times with Badelaire/Khanda
Every 3.36 seconds i'm swinging 2.45 times with Badelaire/Joyeuse

Joyeuse swings .31 seconds faster, but with 25 less attack frequency.

Joyeuse is 8.4% faster, 9.2% less frequency
Khanda+1 is 8.4% slower, 9.2% more frequency

Over a span of 5 minutes (300 seconds)

Badelaire/Khanda would be able to generate 81.7 attack rounds total
Badelaire/Joyeuse would be able to generate 89.2 attack rounds total

Now let's turn that into offhand proc's

Badelaire/Khanda would create 2.7*81.7 220.59 swings over a 5 minute cycle
Badelaire/Joyeuse would create 2.45*89.2 218.54 swings over a 5 minute cycle

Overall

Khanda+1 wins, and since Khanda+2 obviously has a higher attack rate than 1.7, it will blow Joyeuse away. It generates more attacks and allow's you to hit 100tp quicker.

Holy **** that took me a really long time.

Edited, Dec 15th 2010 5:00am by Zafire
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#7 Dec 15 2010 at 4:35 AM Rating: Decent
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Meh, I see you were comparing DPS. In that case Joyeuse does win by 3dmg

DPS

500*0.7*0.63=220 Delay with Badelaire/Khanda
460*0.7*0.63=202 Delay with Badelaire/Joyeuse

I'm going to do this with enspells. Mine will do +25 once my enhancing magic caps for level 90.

Badelaire +2/Khanda +1 is 58+(1.7*29)+(25*1.7) === 58+49.3+42.5= 149.8
Badelaire +2/Joyeuse is 58+(1.45*35)+(25*1.45) === 58+50.75+36.25= 145

Badelaire/Khanda has 220 delay. With 149.8 damage that's
149.8*60/220
=40.8 DPS

Badelaire/Joyeuse has 202 delay. With 145 damage that's
145*60/202
=43.06 DPS

It still doesn't matter though. 7 hit > 8 hit, and Khanda does swing more then Joyeuse.
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#8 Dec 15 2010 at 7:26 AM Rating: Decent
Actually it does 7.5% less damage per swing (which the DPS number represents) It does however get 100TP 4.8% faster. Making the Joyeuse overall just under 3% more effective overall. The new one may change that though, It should. The real kicker in your set up is CDC which is much more beneficial to the WS side being slightly more effective. But that is the exception not the rule.

Essentially the joyeuse is still the most effective offhand weapon. Considering the AVG split of 70/30 between DPS and WS. If you look at it like that.

7.5*.7 = 5.25%
4.8*.3 = 1.29%

the joyeuse in that combo would give you roughly 4% more overall damage.
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#9 Dec 15 2010 at 8:08 AM Rating: Decent
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If your comparing DPS on swords please factor in fSTR first. What you will quickly notice is that fSTR favors lower delay / DMG weapons with high multi-hit proc rates. With multi-hit weapons its best to break them down to average hits per attack round and use that to divide their delay by for average DPS.

Ex:
Joyeuse
D35 Delay 224 Average hits 1.45 (45% DA rate) Rank 3 weapon
35+11 = 46 base D
224/1.45 = 154.48 average delay per attack round
(46 * 60) / 154.48 = 17.86 DPS

To factor in enspell damage take base enspell multiply it by .8 (80% average effectiveness is a good average for comparison) and add to base D before division.

@400 skill = 25 Base, assuming hollow earring due to Brutal having reduced returns on multi hitting weapons.
28 * .8 = 22.4

((46 + 22.4)*60)/154.48 = 26.56 DPS

Khanda+2 OaT
D48 Delay 264 Average hits 1.40 (40% DA rate) Rank 5 weapon
48+13 = 61 base D
264/1.40 = 188.57 average delay
((61 + 22.4)*60)/188.57 = 26.53 DPS

Khanda+2 2~3 (going to use the 3x information because I have no idea what the 4x rate is) Rank 3 weapon
D29 Delay 264 Average hits 1.70 (the 4x version shouldn't be much higher then this)
29+11 = 40 base D
264/1.7 = 155.29
((40 + 22.4)*60)/155.29 = 24.10 DPS

And just for another example,
Shamshir +2 STR version
D54 Delay 230 Average hits 1.0 STR+9 Attack +24.5 Rank 6, not possible to calculate the benefit of the STR / attack without knowing full build and target + buffs and food so will leave it out.
54+14 = 68 base D
230/1.0 = 230
((68 + 22.4)*60)/230 = 23.58 DPS

Can't realistically compare the CDC weapons due to the sheer awesomeness that is CDC. Things like DW / Haste will not change the comparison because it would effect all weapons equally and the percentage difference would remain the same. Our top choices are extremely close to each other with the best non-CDC setup being Khanda+2 OaT / Joy or Shamshir+2 / Khanda 2~4.
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#10 Dec 15 2010 at 10:38 AM Rating: Default
Hey dude, Fyi +DMG doesnt count for fSTR purposes. every on of the Khanda weapons is of a lower rank than Joyeuse.
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#11 Dec 15 2010 at 10:50 AM Rating: Good
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So in between the large walls of math, what I'm getting is that Joyeuse is still better than the ToM multi-hit swords for RDM. Is that correct?
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#12 Dec 15 2010 at 10:53 AM Rating: Default
Having not seen the 2-4 specs. Yes, in terms of overall utility the Joyeuse is still the best weapon. It has either more DPS, or faster TP gain, in both instances it will outperform any to the ToTM weapons you would offhand.
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#13 Dec 15 2010 at 4:42 PM Rating: Good
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Wonder Gem rdmcandie wrote:
Hey dude, Fyi +DMG doesnt count for fSTR purposes. every on of the Khanda weapons is of a lower rank than Joyeuse.


I thought +Dmg from the TotM weapons were included in the weapon rank calculation.
#14 Dec 15 2010 at 5:01 PM Rating: Default
Would be something new if they were, I thought it was shown that they were not, then again it has been a while since I played and actively cared. Unless testing has been done in the last few months to prove otherwise I am quite sure they are not.

Even if so, factoring in fSTR is kind of silly because then it becomes an entire variable on race/gear/mob. Going for base naked DPS is the most accurate way to do it. It would be like giving joyeuse a static 25% increase to damage because sometimes it gets a piercing bonus. If Fstr was as cut and dry as DMG/Delay = DPS then it would matter.

Even still Joyeuse still out DPS's any of those weapons. As I said a long time ago ToTM weapons are not worth the time spent. Exception of course being CDC related weapons within abyssea. Outside abyssea I am confident that Dagger/Joy would out perform this. If outside abyssea mattered that is.
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#15 Dec 15 2010 at 5:59 PM Rating: Decent
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Quote:
So in between the large walls of math, what I'm getting is that Joyeuse is still better than the ToM multi-hit swords for RDM. Is that correct?


I just proved that this isn't true. 7 hit builds are better then 8 hit builts, yo. Plus, Khanda will swing more then Joyeuse, which makes up the delay difference. The only thing Joyeuse would one up Khanda on is it's 6dmg.



Edited, Dec 15th 2010 7:08pm by Zafire
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#16 Dec 15 2010 at 9:08 PM Rating: Default
You proved nothing wrong all you proved was like I said you get faster TP. You do not do more DPS than the joyeuse. You proved that yourself. Considering the TP phase requires 7/8 rounds (which is actually going to require 8/9 swings realistically.)

264+236 = 500*.7*.63 = 220
220*8/60 = 29.33 seconds to 100TP

@ above raw DPS you have 29*40.8 = 1183

Joyeuse

needs 8 hits (9 including ACC correction)

236+224*.7*.63 = 202
202*9/60 = 30.3

@ above DPS you get 30*43.06 = 1291

Even accounting for the 1 second variation

29*43.06 = 1248

1248/1183 = 1.054 @ 5.4% increase in damage over the 2-3 Khanda in the same trip to 100TP.

Assuming an average of a 2.5K WS that is

2500/29 = 86.2+40.8 = 127 DPS per WS+TP phase for a total of 127*29 = 3683 DMG

and for arguments sake (knowing the offhand joyeuse will do more on the 4th hit but I don't feel like mathing out CDC)
500/30 = 83.3+43.06 = 126.36

126.36*29 = 3664.44

3683/3664 = 1.0051 or .51% more damage.

in order for Joyeuse to get that it needs to have an average CDC 4th hit of 2500*1.0051 = 2512.75 12.75 DMG. Considering it is already 6DMG ahead I think that is entirely possible. Not to mention the DMG advantange for Khanda2-3 Is entirely dependent on weapon skilling. If it doesn't make sense to WS then it loses a lot of ground.

Done arguing about it, until the stats for the MA on the 2-4 are shown Joyeuse is still the best off hand choice. Period.



Edited, Dec 15th 2010 10:09pm by rdmcandie
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#17 Dec 15 2010 at 9:10 PM Rating: Good
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Wonder Gem rdmcandie wrote:
needs 8 hits (9 including ACC correction)
Screenshot


That is NOT how you account for acc.
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#18 Dec 15 2010 at 9:18 PM Rating: Decent
It is how you account for ACC you tard

7+7*1.7 - 18.9 (18) Attacks on average
18.9*.95 = 17.9 Loss of exactly 1 hit meaning you need to average 19.9(19)

8+8*1.45 = 19.6(19)
19.6*.95 = 18.62 Loss of almost exactly 1 hit meaning you need to average 20.6(20)

Since you can't have a half hit you floor and add 1 whole hit to the equation. If that means you have to add a whole new attack round then you add a whole new attack round. Unless you are able to only swing 1 weapon at a time now.




Edited, Dec 15th 2010 10:18pm by rdmcandie
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#19 Dec 15 2010 at 9:20 PM Rating: Decent
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Wonder Gem rdmcandie wrote:
Since you can't have a half hit you floor and add 1 whole hit to the equation
Found your problem.
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#20 Dec 15 2010 at 9:22 PM Rating: Decent
oh ya you have a magical function that supercedes the ACC cap now? Or does .7 of an average count as one whole hit now in Rog world?
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#21 Dec 15 2010 at 9:25 PM Rating: Good
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Wonder Gem rdmcandie wrote:
oh ya you have a magical function that supercedes the ACC cap now? Or does .7 of an average count as one whole hit now in Rog world?
No, .7 counts as .7. It's an average, you can absolutely have fractions. By flooring it, you are adding an attack to EVERY SINGLE ws cycle, which won't happen. You need base calculations on the average swings per ws, including misses, and wasted tp (DAs, etc).
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#22 Dec 15 2010 at 9:34 PM Rating: Default
Exactly why you need to add an attack round.

18.9*.95 = 17.9 (AVG)*4.95 = 88.6TP AVG........ Low and behold adding 1 more ATK round gives us

1+1*1.7*.95*4.95 = 12.94 TP annnnnnnnd adding that to the previous amount = 101.5

19.6*.95 = 18.62*4.85 = 90.30 dang not quite

1+1.45*.95 = 11.82 +90.30 = 101.5 Oh **** son.
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#23 Dec 15 2010 at 9:42 PM Rating: Good
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That is so not how it works, lol. And you are ignoring the possibility of all hits landing.
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#24 Dec 15 2010 at 9:53 PM Rating: Default
Yep I am but it still doesn't change ****. The joyeuse has more DPS and a bigger WS that is roughly 1 second behind. I calculate for the trip to 100% TP from 0 because you need 100 TP to use the WS in the first place to get a return on TP. Both WS's return the same TP so in essence it will take 29 straight weaponskills for the Khanda to get 1 weaponskill ahead. Dunno how many mobs last through 29 straight weaponskills tbh. Of course thats assuming as well that you never hold TP, never waste hits on a WS either, in which case you don't get TP returns in full on a WS.

I ignore it for a reason. It is not a viable argument when discussing base DPS values. More so in this case when you are talking about a 1 second difference. Now had the Khanda been 10 seconds or so faster it might actually be worth noting, but since it is not, the point is redundant. As i Said earlier if you hold TP and do not WS the Joyuese combo will gain more damage.

In the end the Joyeuse is the best weapon a RDM or PLD can use offhand, well until someone gets the numbers for the 2-4. Even then the difference will be marginal, and I personally doubt, it will be worth the effort to do the trials to get would have to be something pretty effing impressive to surpass the DPS/TP of the joyeuse offhand.
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#25 Dec 15 2010 at 9:55 PM Rating: Good
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Ok, but you're still doing the math completely ******* wrong.
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#26 Dec 15 2010 at 10:01 PM Rating: Default
No for the purpose it is meant it is completely ******* right. If I had said it was meant to be continous it would be completely ******* wrong. But I stated a few times "In the Trip to 100TP". Implying getting to 100TP. Anything else after that is redundant. You don't start with free TP well atma aside. But not evryone has atma.

12 TP does save you 1 attack round on the joyeuse and the TP on the Khanda does as well. But they are not 7 and 8 hit builds they are gimmicks. They are not like a SAM starting from 0TP and getting 20+ TP a hit for a 5 hit build.

What happens when you blow your TP and miss the target, do you keep your 7 hit build, nope, you get to start all over from scratch and that requires and 8 hit.

(for clarification hit is an attack round).

You love to argue redundant semantics don't you.
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