Multi-hit Magian Swords..which to choose?Follow

Probably 2-4, but i don't know proc rates for it.

There might actually be a case for the DA% sword under proper conditions. While Joyeuse is still a good choice, its multi-hit property can't benefit your other weapon like the DA% would. Toss on Fighter's Roll with a WAR in party along with other DA gear and Atma and breaking 40% DA rate for both weapons isn't unheard of. This then carries over to WS, too, which again Joyeuse doesn't.

My Red Mage offhands Khanda and mainhands Badelaire. This gives me a total of 500 delay. Offhanding Joyeuse would give me 460 delay.

Add in dual wield 3, suppa, the haste spell, and haste from gear:

500*0.7*0.63=220.5
vrs
460*0.7*0.63=202.86

That's a difference of 18 delay, which only makes Badelaire/Joyeuse 30 milliseconds faster. While that is an 8% increase in the time in between swings, I really don't see how you can say 1.45 weapon would create more damage and TP then a 1.7 weapon.

Lets look at the actual TP gained from each after Dual Wield 3 and Suppanomimi. You're looking at

500*.0.7 vrs 460*0.7
350 vrs 322

This would put them both in the lowest possible catagory for TP gained, which is

5.0 + [(Delay - 180) * 1.5 / 180]

Badelaire/Khanda

350/2=175
5.0 + [(175 - 180) * 1.5 / 180]
4.9/swing and with 6 STP from Rajas/Brutal that'd give you
5.1/swing

5.1*(5.1*1.7)=13.7 average TP/round for 8 rounds average needed total to hit 100tp, and 7 rounds average after. So, a seven-hit build. If you take out the 1.7 that would make 71.4tp instead of 95.9, which means offhanding Khanda+1 is generating you 25% more swings.

Badelaire/Joyeuse

322/2=161
5.0 + [(161 - 180) * 1.5 / 180]
4.8/swing, and with 6 STP from Rajas/Brutal that'd give you
5.0/swing

5.0*(5.0*1.45)=12.2 average TP/round for 9 rounds average to reach 100tp, and 8 rounds after your WS. So, an eight-hit build. If you take out the 1.45 that would make 80TP granted instead of 97.6, which means offhanding Joyeuse is giving you 18% more swings.

Time to hit 100TP

My RDM has the Haste spell and 22% in Haste gear.

500*0.7*0.63=220 Delay with Badelaire/Khanda
460*0.7*0.63=202 Delay with Badelaire/Joyeuse

That makes Joyeuse 8% faster, but only .30 Milliseconds faster, which is not really that big of a deal.

It'll take you 8 average rounds to hit 100tp with Joyeuse compared to Khanda's 7. Doing the math in total delay/time:

Badelaire/Joyeuse 1616 total delay for 100tp, 26.9 seconds to reach 100tp
Badelaire/Khanda 1540 total delay for 100tp, 25.6 seconds to reach 100tp

Which means Badelaire/Khanda hits 100tp 4.8% faster, and therefor could potentially generate 4.8% more weaponskills.

Damage over time

Again, gonna repaste this bit
500*0.7*0.63=220 Delay with Badelaire/Khanda
460*0.7*0.63=202 Delay with Badelaire/Joyeuse

Every 3.67 seconds i'm swinging 2.7 times with Badelaire/Khanda
Every 3.36 seconds i'm swinging 2.45 times with Badelaire/Joyeuse

Joyeuse swings .31 seconds faster, but with 25 less attack frequency.

Joyeuse is 8.4% faster, 9.2% less frequency
Khanda+1 is 8.4% slower, 9.2% more frequency

Over a span of 5 minutes (300 seconds)

Badelaire/Khanda would be able to generate 81.7 attack rounds total
Badelaire/Joyeuse would be able to generate 89.2 attack rounds total

Now let's turn that into offhand proc's

Badelaire/Khanda would create 2.7*81.7 220.59 swings over a 5 minute cycle
Badelaire/Joyeuse would create 2.45*89.2 218.54 swings over a 5 minute cycle

Overall

Khanda+1 wins, and since Khanda+2 obviously has a higher attack rate than 1.7, it will blow Joyeuse away. It generates more attacks and allow's you to hit 100tp quicker.

Holy hell that took me a really long time.

Edited, Dec 15th 2010 5:00am by Zafire

Actually it does 7.5% less damage per swing (which the DPS number represents) It does however get 100TP 4.8% faster. Making the Joyeuse overall just under 3% more effective overall. The new one may change that though, It should. The real kicker in your set up is CDC which is much more beneficial to the WS side being slightly more effective. But that is the exception not the rule.

Essentially the joyeuse is still the most effective offhand weapon. Considering the AVG split of 70/30 between DPS and WS. If you look at it like that.

7.5*.7 = 5.25%
4.8*.3 = 1.29%

the joyeuse in that combo would give you roughly 4% more overall damage.

Hey dude, Fyi +DMG doesnt count for fSTR purposes. every on of the Khanda weapons is of a lower rank than Joyeuse.

Having not seen the 2-4 specs. Yes, in terms of overall utility the Joyeuse is still the best weapon. It has either more DPS, or faster TP gain, in both instances it will outperform any to the ToTM weapons you would offhand.

Would be something new if they were, I thought it was shown that they were not, then again it has been a while since I played and actively cared. Unless testing has been done in the last few months to prove otherwise I am quite sure they are not.

Even if so, factoring in fSTR is kind of silly because then it becomes an entire variable on race/gear/mob. Going for base naked DPS is the most accurate way to do it. It would be like giving joyeuse a static 25% increase to damage because sometimes it gets a piercing bonus. If Fstr was as cut and dry as DMG/Delay = DPS then it would matter.

Even still Joyeuse still out DPS's any of those weapons. As I said a long time ago ToTM weapons are not worth the time spent. Exception of course being CDC related weapons within abyssea. Outside abyssea I am confident that Dagger/Joy would out perform this. If outside abyssea mattered that is.

You proved nothing wrong all you proved was like I said you get faster TP. You do not do more DPS than the joyeuse. You proved that yourself. Considering the TP phase requires 7/8 rounds (which is actually going to require 8/9 swings realistically.)

264+236 = 500*.7*.63 = 220
220*8/60 = 29.33 seconds to 100TP

@ above raw DPS you have 29*40.8 = 1183

Joyeuse

needs 8 hits (9 including ACC correction)

236+224*.7*.63 = 202
202*9/60 = 30.3

@ above DPS you get 30*43.06 = 1291

Even accounting for the 1 second variation

29*43.06 = 1248

1248/1183 = 1.054 @ 5.4% increase in damage over the 2-3 Khanda in the same trip to 100TP.

Assuming an average of a 2.5K WS that is

2500/29 = 86.2+40.8 = 127 DPS per WS+TP phase for a total of 127*29 = 3683 DMG

and for arguments sake (knowing the offhand joyeuse will do more on the 4th hit but I don't feel like mathing out CDC)
500/30 = 83.3+43.06 = 126.36

126.36*29 = 3664.44

3683/3664 = 1.0051 or .51% more damage.

in order for Joyeuse to get that it needs to have an average CDC 4th hit of 2500*1.0051 = 2512.75 12.75 DMG. Considering it is already 6DMG ahead I think that is entirely possible. Not to mention the DMG advantange for Khanda2-3 Is entirely dependent on weapon skilling. If it doesn't make sense to WS then it loses a lot of ground.

Done arguing about it, until the stats for the MA on the 2-4 are shown Joyeuse is still the best off hand choice. Period.



Edited, Dec 15th 2010 10:09pm by rdmcandie

It is how you account for ACC you tard

7+7*1.7 - 18.9 (18) Attacks on average
18.9*.95 = 17.9 Loss of exactly 1 hit meaning you need to average 19.9(19)

8+8*1.45 = 19.6(19)
19.6*.95 = 18.62 Loss of almost exactly 1 hit meaning you need to average 20.6(20)

Since you can't have a half hit you floor and add 1 whole hit to the equation. If that means you have to add a whole new attack round then you add a whole new attack round. Unless you are able to only swing 1 weapon at a time now.




Edited, Dec 15th 2010 10:18pm by rdmcandie

oh ya you have a magical function that supercedes the ACC cap now? Or does .7 of an average count as one whole hit now in Rog world?

Exactly why you need to add an attack round.

18.9*.95 = 17.9 (AVG)*4.95 = 88.6TP AVG........ Low and behold adding 1 more ATK round gives us

1+1*1.7*.95*4.95 = 12.94 TP annnnnnnnd adding that to the previous amount = 101.5

19.6*.95 = 18.62*4.85 = 90.30 dang not quite

1+1.45*.95 = 11.82 +90.30 = 101.5 Oh sh*t son.

Yep I am but it still doesn't change sh*t. The joyeuse has more DPS and a bigger WS that is roughly 1 second behind. I calculate for the trip to 100% TP from 0 because you need 100 TP to use the WS in the first place to get a return on TP. Both WS's return the same TP so in essence it will take 29 straight weaponskills for the Khanda to get 1 weaponskill ahead. Dunno how many mobs last through 29 straight weaponskills tbh. Of course thats assuming as well that you never hold TP, never waste hits on a WS either, in which case you don't get TP returns in full on a WS.

I ignore it for a reason. It is not a viable argument when discussing base DPS values. More so in this case when you are talking about a 1 second difference. Now had the Khanda been 10 seconds or so faster it might actually be worth noting, but since it is not, the point is redundant. As i Said earlier if you hold TP and do not WS the Joyuese combo will gain more damage.

In the end the Joyeuse is the best weapon a RDM or PLD can use offhand, well until someone gets the numbers for the 2-4. Even then the difference will be marginal, and I personally doubt, it will be worth the effort to do the trials to get would have to be something pretty effing impressive to surpass the DPS/TP of the joyeuse offhand.

No for the purpose it is meant it is completely @#%^ing right. If I had said it was meant to be continous it would be completely @#%^ing wrong. But I stated a few times "In the Trip to 100TP". Implying getting to 100TP. Anything else after that is redundant. You don't start with free TP well atma aside. But not evryone has atma.

12 TP does save you 1 attack round on the joyeuse and the TP on the Khanda does as well. But they are not 7 and 8 hit builds they are gimmicks. They are not like a SAM starting from 0TP and getting 20+ TP a hit for a 5 hit build.

What happens when you blow your TP and miss the target, do you keep your 7 hit build, nope, you get to start all over from scratch and that requires and 8 hit.

(for clarification hit is an attack round).

You love to argue redundant semantics don't you.

wut? all I proved was that Joyeuse has 3 higher DPS.



Offhanding Khanda gives faster TP.



Khanda creates more swings.

You also have to take into account that you are mainhanding a weapon that does not multi hit, so it's 2.45 vrs 2.7, which I did the math here



3 more DPS on a weapon doesn't mean sh*t when you can weaponskill more.

And it doesn't even matter if you use the accuracy formula or not because Khanda is still a 7 hit even if you hit 95% of the time and Joyeuse is still an 8 hit if you hit 95% of the time.

Edited, Dec 16th 2010 4:34am by Zafire

I understand what you are saying Rog, but you are basing TP gains on a WS that will not always give you TP returns. Being a multihit you can miss hits, thus not get TP for said hits. Factoring for that is retarded. Especially considering the greatly reduced chance of landing all hits of multi hit WS. You AVG above further proves my point. 7.59 hit is not 7, it is not 8 either but since you can not have half an attack round regardless of being an average or not you need to account for worst case scenario not best case scenario.

Which is why I increased both weapons by 1 attack round each to ensure EACH and EVERY time you are working to 100TP yo get to 100TP with no varibale change. Will you always need 8/9 rounds, no you wont, But you will need 8/9 rounds more often than you need 7/8 rounds, especially when you consider in Both instances you are talking about getting 1 more TP than you need. 1 Miss on any "hit" in any of the 7/8 rounds and you miss your WS.

It is not like I set the Khanda up to fail, I added a round for both weapons equally even if you were garunteed 7/8 attack round builds it would not change that .5% number by a whole lot, maybe another fraction of a %.

Again That is assuming you WS at exactly 100TP every single time. If you hold TP cause a mob is @ 10% an it is a waste, then the Joyeuse is gaining roughly 3DMG/s that you are not WSing.

The only way that ToTM multihits are worth getting is if the 2-4 is so far above and beyond that it makes the Joyeuse look real bad, and by real bad that is >.5% more AVG total DPS. Personally I would not trade hours and hours for 12 more overall DMG per WS(inc TP phase). If You even WS @ 100TP at all.

The joyeuse is still our best all around weapon out of the ones the OP listed (even though it wasn't listed), in terms of DPS + Time to WS not to mention one of the biggest factors. Time to obtain.

@ Sae

Hmmm I know there was testing being done, glad to see SE was kind enough to make them not super gimp like that. I retract my above reply to you if this really is the case.

67% of the time it works all the time.

cool story so aside from mr.semantics redundant points, joyeuse is still the best of the options you listed that have data available to them.

actually the Khanda setup "wins" by .5%. To which I said, depends on whether or not.

A. WS every time at exactly 100% (in his case 101.5%) TP
B. The Joyeuse Does at least 12 more damage on the 4th hit of the Weaponskill.

In both cases that would push the Joyeuse Ahead.

For OVERALL usage the Joyeuse is still the best weapon. Factoring in DPS and WS frequency. Nothing touches its universal flavor, and furthermore it takes quite a lot longer to get a weapon that even if A is true and B is false is .5% better.

But keep in mind that one time you held TP when the mob was close to death is a loss of more than .5% vs the Joyeuse off hand.

(also for the record, if you consider the 7/8 hit as 7/8 hits, the Khanda is only .58% better. So really Semantics are still moot.)

*edit*

The only saving grace is that for every 29 weaponskills the Khanda set up gets 1 free Weaponskill. But since that would be be over 100K in damage, I doubt that is a reliable reason to even consider into a comparison.

Edited, Dec 16th 2010 2:31pm by rdmcandie

coool story, sadly we all know what each other meant. Besides about half way down the page I clarified it as to avoid confusion.

Right Here:



Just because you don't understand doesn't mean the people who are capable of discussing these things don't.


Also this.




Is entirely untrue. In events where TP gain is important (such as using a feeder mob to WS on an NM to avoid TP moves more often) The Khanda 2-3 is great, 4.8% is a huge increase. However in terms of straight up overall usefulness it is not, because your DoT and WS both need to be accounted for.

It is situational.

In terms of what the OP wanted to know the Joyeuse is still the overall "best" weapon. (although subject to change when the 2-4 specs are made known.)


Now off topic: Let me guess you are a SAM or DRK and are tired of getting out DD'd by a RDM using a 7/8 hit build and don't like us stealing the name of it because its a 7/8 attack round build faster than your 5 hit.






Edited, Dec 17th 2010 12:03pm by rdmcandie

This is exactly correct. ATM the Joyeuse and Khanda 2-3 are very very close in terms of base overall DMG per WS round the Khanda is only half a % ahead. But that as I mentioned earlier requires you to WS at 100TP (or as soon as you break 100) every time. Or the joyeuse to hit for more than 12 extra damage on the final hit of the WS.

Myself personally would not waste my time, Unless the difference was so profound it made sense to. But when you are talking a few %'s to me it is not worth my effort. But that isn't saying the weapons themselves are not worth it. Joyeuse is simple to get, from likely a uncamped mob, that most jobs can likely now solo.

When you get to talking about a few points of a % or a few % either way it really comes down to personal flavor. The only reason I state that the Joyeuse is still "the best" is based on three things.

1. It has a great DPS rate
2. It has a great Ws frequency
3. It is easy as hell to get one.

Math supports 1 and 2, and everyone knows number 3 is true.

Beyond that if it isn't a 5-10% increase in overall DPS to me it personally aint worth the effort.

False. If you DA past 100 tp, then your xhit build did not do a damn thing to increase your ws rate. If you consistently go past 100 tp because of a high da/ta rate, then the advantage from your xhit build is severely diminished. You are right about accuracy though. However we aren't talking about hit builds, we're talking about the rounds/ws, which is affected by acc.

We were talking about 7-8 ROUNDS, not hits.

Edited, Dec 17th 2010 7:37pm by ThePsychoticOne

I thought we all sheathed our swords in favor of Blizzard IV and Varuna's +2?

Most likely Shamshir / Khanda would win due to Shamshir+2 being completely bad a$$ for main hand. Of course CDC weapons destroy it but that is neither here nor there.

There is nothing special about 2H weapons that makes sTP any more efficient for them then 1H or DWing setups. Formula's work out the exact same, the 95% acc cap is exact same, DA / TA's are the exact same. I'll use Shamshir+2 / Joy as an example because its easy to calculate.

Shamshir Delay 230 Original TP per hit: 6.2%, TP efficiency = 1.617 TP per Second (TPpS)

Joyeuse Delay 224 Original TP per hit: 6%, Averaged Delay = 154.4, TPpS = 2.3316

Assuming /NIN DWIII + Suppa for 30% Delay Reduction.

230 + 224 = 454 * .70 = 317.8 /2 = 158.9 Delay per attack.

Tp Formula is
5.0 + [(Delay - 180) * 1.5 / 180]
We plug in the numbers and get 4.382 which is floored to 4.3 TP per hit. Assuming Rajas and no other +sTP items we get 4.5 TP per hit for 22.22 [23] attacks until 100TP. This is from 0, if we're using a 4 hit WS (DB / CDC) then we should end up with approx 11TP if all hits connect, so 19.7 [20] hits to 100 TP after a 4 hit WS.

Now to factor in multi hits we need to factor in how fast we're actually attacking. Joy is 1.45 DA rate with Shamshir being 1.0 DA rate for a combined 2.45 average attacks per round at 317.8/2.45 = 129.7 averaged actual delay per attack. At 95% acc we need 20 * (1 + miss change) = 21 attacks to actually reach 100 TP.
129.7 * 21 = 2723.7/60 = 45.39 seconds till 100.

This is all at only +5 sTP, 11TP return off WS and no haste.

tldr;
Treat DWing as attacks not rounds because you can and will have partial attack rounds due to miss's and multi hit procs. Adding sTP to DW will have the same effect as adding it to 2H, the only benefit 2H gets is with such large delays the amount of "free" you get from WSing is significantly larger then DWing. On the flip side DW has very little wasted sTP due to its TP gain increments being broken up rather then chunked all together. Being 8TP away from 100 comes much faster with a DW setup then with a 2H setup.

Your trying to find a baseline for time to 100 TP for comparison's sake. Haste would be irrelevant because it would effect everything equally. Its also to show that all weapons are treated equally with regards to sTP.

450 Delay GKT, TP Per hit: 11.5, TPpS: 1.533
Hits to 100: 8.69 [9]
With 95% acc hits to 100: 9 * 1.05 = 9.45, Assuming 1 hit worth is from WS then you need 8.45.

450 * 8.45 = 3802.5/60 = 63.375 seconds till 100.

So seeing us @45 seconds base time till 100 isn't a big deal. SAM lowers that number by using their natural insane sTP along with sTP equipment, most 2H jobs use /SAM so there's +15 free for them.

Cool story bro.