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#27 Sep 13 2010 at 3:43 PM Rating: Excellent
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Problem is, you can pretty much break this game down into nothing more than events everyone wants to get done as quickly as possible so they can get to the next event they wanna do.
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#28 Sep 13 2010 at 3:48 PM Rating: Good
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I'd personally like to watch a pimped out DD and RDM hybrid go at it on a parse with equal buffs and the future of the RDM job in the balance. If a RDM with pimped gear could do 75% of the SAM's output, that might change a few minds. I suspect that some of those LS mates wouldn't hold back if there was a motive to perform at a higher level. What do you think?


I think we've been there.

Forgive me for dredging up old history but we've had parses showing us doing more than our fair share of damage against well geared <insert damage dealer job here>. The only thing that resulted in that was people questioning the parse itself, or make some excuse that <job> was improperly geared or "Sucked at their job."

Worse, as of this update, we fell behind quite a bit in gear performance, something we're going to pay for dearly when upgraded AF3 becomes more common among the playerbase.

I'm sorry to burst the bubble, but RDMs need to stop daydreaming that they're going to convince the public that they're 'worth it in the front lines' on anything but a case by case basis.

No amount of gear support or fancy new spell is going to make up for that RDM that can't (or won't) manage other duities while in the front line, or not bother to put the effort in having the proper melee setup. You could litteraly BREAK the job and it still won't break the stigma that it's a healing/support capable job in a world that everyone wants to be a melee and push the support duities onto as few classes as possible.

It has to be done on the personal level. Meaning for all the support we want given to the aspect of the job, you're still going to have to have the gall to tell the Min/Maxers to STFU yourself by preforming well and becomming part of that 1% exception. Would I like SE to make that percentage a bit wider? Most definatly. But even if their support does widen the percentage, it's not going to make the fight to take the front lines any easier. And right now SE isn't giving us much help. (Though, we'll have to see how /WAR at 90 pans out.)

Which leads me back to the primary discussion here. What is our pourpose?

Our pourpose hasn't changed, nor will it just because other jobs have gained more accessability. We are a support job. How we support exactly will depend entirely on the context of the situation. In Lowman or 1 party situations we'll get away with meleeing quite easily barring specific NM fights, as we've got enough abilities at this point to handle almost any situation while in the front line.

Larger scale events however will be highly context sensitive. In Abyssea parties, so long as your party isn't being slaughtered and you've decent enough gear, you should be fine, opinions on the matter be damned. However you start getting into more riskier events, your support will take the form of a more backline approach.

For as much as we cry wolf on how we're going to loose our 'role' in the game, the truth of the matter is, we've dominated invites for years. By sheer habits and population we're still going to maintain a decent invite rate to events, etc. Primarily because we are so maliable. WHM might have more MP longevity and better cures, but we pack a superior enhancing skill and better enfeebles. Scholar might have our magic versitility, but no party in their right mind is going to invite 1 Scholar to do both support and damage as it's too much a stress on their stratagems. BLM in and of itself has no aspect when it comes to support really, they're there for magic damage primarily and even then RDM is a tempting job to throw in because it can distribute Refresh II and yet still assist with nuking if it suits their fancy to.

Will invite rates decline? Sure. But we've got the malibility niche in our favor, as well as the enfeebeling superiority. And in worse case sinerios we've got enough events and other activities to keep the job gaining exp/merits/cruor/resistance credits/etc. Simply put, it's not as if we're never going to get the items we're after.

So in the end we're the ones that have to tend to ourselves and our own desires. We're not going to get hand fed into the front line position, and while we're going to suffer a slight invite rate drop, we're still one of the go-to jobs for support. We're noumours and versitile enough to maintain our invite rates. (Not to mention with a game this old, you likely know someone to vouge for you to get invites into abyssea groups to begin with.)

It really is time to settle down on this whole identity crisis thing. I'd love a good buff to the job as much as anyone, but we're still 14 levels before cap and I severly doubt SE is going to deviate from their plans much until it's all said and done. So for now we need to figure out just how far we can push our performances and really sort out the real problems as they come. Obviously we're suffering from a Melee gear defficency as it stands. But from what I recall we suffered a huge melee gear gap from the 50s to the mid/high 70s, so this falls right in line with gear trends so far.

#29 Sep 13 2010 at 8:52 PM Rating: Good
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Hyrist, ****** Superhero wrote:
I'm sorry to burst the bubble, but RDMs need to stop daydreaming that they're going to convince the public that they're 'worth it in the front lines' on anything but a case by case basis.
If this is indeed the case, at least to me it solidifies the fact that the class is designed around very flawed principles. Better put, as a sword&magic hybrid, it doesn't live up to its concept in content that matters.

Game mechanics, again, do not support RDM appropriately. There's nothing in place that tells someone who looks at you "ok, this guy is a melee RDM" or "ok this guy is a mage/support RDM" in terms of abilities, seals, stances and such. And with melee there must be restrictions, which is what the developers seem to not want to do; they do not want to limit the class on the mage side to make it better or more useful at melee (and vice versa). They had the opportunity with composure, but I would have wanted a greater melee buff in exchange for a more noticeable penalty (maybe "support spells that are not cures can only be cast on self").

The game itself has to tell others what you are capable of and what to expect from you. This is one of the numerous things needed to help the job work its way to the front. Perhaps I'm wrong, but I get the feeling gear and subjob are not going to be enough.
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#30 Sep 13 2010 at 10:31 PM Rating: Decent
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Hyrist, ****** Superhero wrote:

I think we've been there.

Forgive me for dredging up old history but we've had parses showing us doing more than our fair share of damage against well geared <insert damage dealer job here>. The only thing that resulted in that was people questioning the parse itself, or make some excuse that <job> was improperly geared or "Sucked at their job."

Worse, as of this update, we fell behind quite a bit in gear performance, something we're going to pay for dearly when upgraded AF3 becomes more common among the playerbase.

I'm sorry to burst the bubble, but RDMs need to stop daydreaming that they're going to convince the public that they're 'worth it in the front lines' on anything but a case by case basis.

No amount of gear support or fancy new spell is going to make up for that RDM that can't (or won't) manage other duities while in the front line, or not bother to put the effort in having the proper melee setup. You could litteraly BREAK the job and it still won't break the stigma that it's a healing/support capable job in a world that everyone wants to be a melee and push the support duities onto as few classes as possible.

It has to be done on the personal level. Meaning for all the support we want given to the aspect of the job, you're still going to have to have the gall to tell the Min/Maxers to STFU yourself by preforming well and becomming part of that 1% exception. Would I like SE to make that percentage a bit wider? Most definatly. But even if their support does widen the percentage, it's not going to make the fight to take the front lines any easier. And right now SE isn't giving us much help. (Though, we'll have to see how /WAR at 90 pans out.)

Which leads me back to the primary discussion here. What is our pourpose?

Our pourpose hasn't changed, nor will it just because other jobs have gained more accessability. We are a support job. How we support exactly will depend entirely on the context of the situation. In Lowman or 1 party situations we'll get away with meleeing quite easily barring specific NM fights, as we've got enough abilities at this point to handle almost any situation while in the front line.

Larger scale events however will be highly context sensitive. In Abyssea parties, so long as your party isn't being slaughtered and you've decent enough gear, you should be fine, opinions on the matter be damned. However you start getting into more riskier events, your support will take the form of a more backline approach.

For as much as we cry wolf on how we're going to loose our 'role' in the game, the truth of the matter is, we've dominated invites for years. By sheer habits and population we're still going to maintain a decent invite rate to events, etc. Primarily because we are so maliable. WHM might have more MP longevity and better cures, but we pack a superior enhancing skill and better enfeebles. Scholar might have our magic versitility, but no party in their right mind is going to invite 1 Scholar to do both support and damage as it's too much a stress on their stratagems. BLM in and of itself has no aspect when it comes to support really, they're there for magic damage primarily and even then RDM is a tempting job to throw in because it can distribute Refresh II and yet still assist with nuking if it suits their fancy to.

Will invite rates decline? Sure. But we've got the malibility niche in our favor, as well as the enfeebeling superiority. And in worse case sinerios we've got enough events and other activities to keep the job gaining exp/merits/cruor/resistance credits/etc. Simply put, it's not as if we're never going to get the items we're after.

So in the end we're the ones that have to tend to ourselves and our own desires. We're not going to get hand fed into the front line position, and while we're going to suffer a slight invite rate drop, we're still one of the go-to jobs for support. We're noumours and versitile enough to maintain our invite rates. (Not to mention with a game this old, you likely know someone to vouge for you to get invites into abyssea groups to begin with.)

It really is time to settle down on this whole identity crisis thing. I'd love a good buff to the job as much as anyone, but we're still 14 levels before cap and I severly doubt SE is going to deviate from their plans much until it's all said and done. So for now we need to figure out just how far we can push our performances and really sort out the real problems as they come. Obviously we're suffering from a Melee gear defficency as it stands. But from what I recall we suffered a huge melee gear gap from the 50s to the mid/high 70s, so this falls right in line with gear trends so far.



That's not always true Hyrist. DRG was mocked for years and their stigma had little to with actual job performance. Sure you had those AF DRG's with flag up that didn't help matters any. The point is ToAU's affinity for pink birds and the 2-hand update was enough to salvage DRG and make it respectable in the eyes of the community. BST is another job that has just taken a few baby steps towards that goal. DNC has become a powerhouse even by most elite standards.

The point I was making is we need unbiased and impartial empirical data that can change the minds of community. That means a RDM can't be parsing their own performance and try to make claims about it. It needs to be from a third-party with no personal motive to fudge the numbers. I can't speak for everyone, but when my Linkshell does a group event, it's a competition to score high. Comparing merit/XP parties where most people myself included grow fatigued from fighting mob after mob for hours is NOT an accurate assessment of job performance.

As for as melee is concerned, BRD's are much better suited for the task than RDM. Let me explain before all **** breaks loose. First of all, ditch the BRD meripo puller mentality. Next look at the gear and melee traits available to both jobs. Finally look at what both jobs can contribute from the back-line and how that affects the outcome. There is a reason why BRD/nin pulls in merit parties. It's not only because of their Elegy pulls or sleep spam either. It's because BRD doesn't do much besides singing a few buffs every few minutes. The opposite is true of RDM. We heal(without requiring a sj), enfeeble/link control, and buff 99% of the time. The BRD and COR classes can apply their song/rolls and melee to their heart's content without sacrificing much to the group besides gimped heals and a limited mana pool. That's why I wasn't surprised one bit when both BRD and COR got melee buffs of sorts.

I don't think anyone knowledgeable of RDM will say we can't do it all, but the real question is whether or not it will be overall beneficial. Our purpose is to fill gaps, but what if no gaps are present. Do we come on another job if our WHM's and BLM's got everything covered? Do we become that "token" mage where we need just one to beat the mega boss?

That all being said, I like the idea you brought up about RDM's forging their own destiny. I'm not so sure this will apply to me though. I'm sick of the Pink mage role and I'd rather stick to BLU if I can't play RDM like I feel it should be played. Some reading this might say this makes me a Princess RDM, that's fine. You can play the job then, no worries. As much as I fought the idea of a front-line RDM role, my most rewarding experiences are soloing on RDM meleeing down some tough NM.

Edited, Sep 13th 2010 11:35pm by ShadowedgeFFXI
#31 Sep 14 2010 at 3:38 AM Rating: Default
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I've demonstrated multiple parses that shows me @80% or more of the DD capacity of a "heavy DD" with me actually beating out quite a few other DD's. Most likely it was a skill difference as I'm very attentive to always moving from monster to monster and engaging as quick as possible. It only served to really ~really~ **** off the detractors. Nobody likes being told their wrong, and people absolutely hate / loathe being shown their wrong.

And yes context is very important, but any where you'd have a THF, NIN, DNC, PUP, COR, or anything other then WAR-SAM-DRG-DRK beating on mobs then you can have a hybrid built RDM there to. If we got for 100% perfect all the time every time then less then 10% of the population will be doing it. It ceases being a game and becomes a job, I already have stressful full time job I don't need another one in a "game". Anyway when the difference between a RDM and a SAM is "we finished Dyna-Bastok with 1:30 hours to spare vs 1:20" then the isn't much anyone can say.

RDM by definition is part WAR part WHM part BLM. In fact in the beginning it was a WAR-WHM-BLM hybrid, refresh / convert / gravity didn't exist and dia was a divine spell. SE gave it refresh / convert / gravity and then changed enfeebling to A (it was B) because the JP's wanted something "unique" to the job. This was right about the time the cap went from 50 to 60 but before NA was released. SE has always had RDM as a hybrid mix job, the player base looked at refresh back when MP was super-scarce and saw a MP battery. Later players focusing on the mage side discovered they could main heal just as well if not better then a WHM through the use of convert and self refresh. Healing magic skill did nothing for cures after it capped and RDM's C healing skill was unimportant. This is how RDM as a healer-haste-refresh robot came to be, the player base needed healers and we were available. Years later SE is finally deciding that the melee side of RDM needs fixing and set about doing it, first with composure and now with the uncapping of enhancing magic. Very soon we'll be getting Gain-STR / Gain-DEX and from what I found out it's gonna be a holiday. Gain-INT for the folks that enjoy playing mini-BLM.

Edited, Sep 14th 2010 4:15pm by saevellakshmi
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#32 Sep 14 2010 at 4:28 AM Rating: Excellent
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I won't get too far in to this thread, but every use of RDM has it's place, but in the same breath, Every place is not ideal for every play style. You have to take in the event that your doing, and how the party is layed out to determine how you play your job. If people are expecting a set type of actions, and you aren't doing them, then your going to get sh*t for it.

Even if your RDM did 90% of the damage of your SAM, if you are wanted for damage, people would expect your SAM, because it *really is* a 10% difference. In a more casual setting, ie. non-event time party, I could see more openness for alternative play styles. Event time should definitely be max-max, if it isn't 100% of what your capable, then it isn't good enough. (and yes, I apply this to *everyone*)

Events should take *as little time* as possible, leaving the rest of the time to play how you want.


You're right. You won't get far in this thread. You are already making the assumption that every RDM here wants to melee Absolute Virtue without casting a single spell. Give people a little more credit than that why don't you? Nobody is here is talking about melee on king NMs. How about keeping this to just your typical, run-of-the-mill Abyssea EXP party first?
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#33 Sep 14 2010 at 6:07 AM Rating: Decent
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Do our gain spells even stack? I was under the impression that they would overwrite each other.
#34 Sep 14 2010 at 7:05 AM Rating: Good
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Ketaru wrote:
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I won't get too far in to this thread, but every use of RDM has it's place, but in the same breath, Every place is not ideal for every play style. You have to take in the event that your doing, and how the party is layed out to determine how you play your job. If people are expecting a set type of actions, and you aren't doing them, then your going to get sh*t for it.

Even if your RDM did 90% of the damage of your SAM, if you are wanted for damage, people would expect your SAM, because it *really is* a 10% difference. In a more casual setting, ie. non-event time party, I could see more openness for alternative play styles. Event time should definitely be max-max, if it isn't 100% of what your capable, then it isn't good enough. (and yes, I apply this to *everyone*)

Events should take *as little time* as possible, leaving the rest of the time to play how you want.


You're right. You won't get far in this thread. You are already making the assumption that every RDM here wants to melee Absolute Virtue without casting a single spell. Give people a little more credit than that why don't you? Nobody is here is talking about melee on king NMs. How about keeping this to just your typical, run-of-the-mill Abyssea EXP party first?


I apologize, I took my comment directly from Saevel talking about *our* linkshell, which is dynamis, a multi alliance event. In the run-of-the-mill Abyssea EXP, as long as *long* conversation with *non-real* math isn't brought up, I'm sure noone cares. If they did, then the SMN using blood pacts and occasionally meleeing with the staff probably wouldn't be as "accepted" as it is.

Out of all my jobs, (mostly mage types), it's fun to play on RDM (yes, I have a melee set, hmp set, nuke set, enfeeble set, INT set, MND Set, etc.). The non-fun comes from the constant complaints about "what rdm gets" or "what rdm doesn't get". imo.

If you are invited for a purpose, and can fulfill that purpose *and* play however you want, noone will care. In my experience it's when you fail to meet that purpose that people start questioning your play style. When the RDM is expected to keep a haste cycle, who cares if they melee as long as the haste *never* wears, the occasional haste isn't good enough.

Edited, Sep 14th 2010 8:13am by Toioiz
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#35 Sep 14 2010 at 7:08 AM Rating: Decent
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saevellakshmi wrote:
Anyway when the difference between a RDM and a SAM is "we finished Dyna-Bastok with 1:30 hours to spare vs 1:20" then the isn't much anyone can say.


Wrong, I say, I could have completed 10 quests attempts at getting my RDM Legs seals during that time, you just *wasted* 10 minutes of 32+ peoples time, or over 5 hours of "People time". If everyone took this attitude, it goes from 1:40 to 1:30 to 1:20 to 1:00. If one person is willing to accept "less" during that time, then so are other people. It's less about *you* and more about *everyone* at that point.

Edited, Sep 14th 2010 8:09am by Toioiz
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#36 Sep 14 2010 at 9:22 AM Rating: Decent
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you just *wasted* 10 minutes of 32+ peoples time, or over 5 hours of "People time"


No... he 'wasted' 10 minutes of time.

There isn't some special interdenominational vortex in which you can multiply time wasted by the number of people attending. We all share the same time span so 10 minutes is 10 minutes regardless if there's 32 people there or a million.

Quote:
If everyone took this attitude, it goes from 1:40 to 1:30 to 1:20 to 1:00


And Dynamis would still be cleared, and people would be a LOT less **** retentative about coming on specific jobs. Not to mention, a properly geared and focused RDM in a Dynamis setting would actually cut time rather than increase it, due to how Box Step/Dia work alliance wide, and a Samurai can only output so much.

Truth be told, with how Dynamis is nowadays, main healing DD parties is fairly easy if you don't have suicide classes. (If you've got a BLU that likes to spam Final Sting, you might wanna get a WHM to heal him.)


Quote:
If one person is willing to accept "less" during that time, then so are other people. It's less about *you* and more about *everyone* at that point.


And here we come to the essential flaws of the playerbase: Greed and Impatience. We compete against each other, we compete against the clock, we push and push and push each other and ourselves so that these grinds become less and less enjoyable.

It shouldn't be just about one person, nor should it be just about everyone. There's a stress to find the happy medium in this.

Honestly, what did pushing everyone so hard for three years to get salvage gear net anyone? A bit glop of "Squeenix Droppings" in the face when AF3 came out.

Sky gear, mix match set up? Say hello to Abyssea Cruor pieces, not quite as powerful but damned good and sh*t easy to get.

Tempering Ambition with patience has constantly yielded rewards in this game. So taking that extra half hour in Dynamis so people can enjoy themselves is an investment WELL worth it. ****, 'having fun' is often the best practice in getting your groups to work together better when the chip are down.

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Do our gain spells even stack? I was under the impression that they would overwrite each other.


I'd like to know this as well. Not that it matters when you're getting +12 of a single stat when you want it, but it'd be nice if we could pair up say STR and DEX.



Edited, Sep 14th 2010 11:24am by Hyrist
#37 Sep 14 2010 at 9:31 AM Rating: Decent
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Having fun, is not having to listen to someone try to explain to 30+ other people what "their" idea of fun is. I would rather get through it quickly and move on to something fun that doesn't have the group to "complain" about it. It's not a "10 minute" difference when this happens, it's 2 hours and a freaking migraine of having to listen to stupid comments on both sides that gets really annoying. Just get it over with, or don't do it. If it isn't your idea of fun, find something that is. It *should* be about everyone, everyone should be happy, everyone should be having fun. If 1 person, or 2 people, are upsetting that, those people should find a different group that meets their play style, if they aren't willing to do what is expected.

Edited, Sep 14th 2010 10:33am by Toioiz
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#38 Sep 14 2010 at 9:56 AM Rating: Decent
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saevellakshmi wrote:
I've demonstrated multiple parses that shows me @80% or more of the DD capacity of a "heavy DD" with me actually beating out quite a few other DD's. Most likely it was a skill difference as I'm very attentive to always moving from monster to monster and engaging as quick as possible. It only served to really ~really~ **** off the detractors. Nobody likes being told their wrong, and people absolutely hate / loathe being shown their wrong.



I think you're right about one thing. It is a skill difference. A person with more skill/attention could perform well on ANY job given that the player geared properly for that situation. That's one of the main reasons why your numbers aren't accurate. Think about soloing for a moment. Do you think most RDM's could solo tough NM's as good as Avesta or Rog? If so, do you think it would be so precise or more of a sloppy victory. That's always been my point to this argument. A good player of any job can perform higher than your standard player. As for you personally, I do believe you said you augmented all 3 expansion gears just for RDM melee. Most melee don't have to bother with that and those that have were waiting on a better gear piece dropping elsewhere. RDM doesn't have that luxury and must take opportunity anywhere we can.

By the way, what did you think of my BRD / COR comparison? Isn't it more realistic those 2 jobs have more time to melee and less tasks people expect. I find it ironic that SE buffed COR and BRD with melee buffs and left RDM with zip.
#39 Sep 14 2010 at 10:00 AM Rating: Decent
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Abs-VIT and Abs-MND do not stack from what I can tell. The newer one overwrites the previous one.

My arguments have always been to maximize everyone's enjoyment. Have fun without affecting total LS drops / accomplishment. Its when people get angrier at me wanting to do RDM/NIN in bastok, while their rather quiet about the E-Body Ridil WAR who is doing less then 4~5% that starts to get to me. Go after the under-performers would have a greater overall effect, but nobody wants to speak up and point them out because it'll cause waves of resentment. And in the end the remains, what is the actual end effect? What does either option accomplish? I play this game to have fun, I would believe that the vast majority of players who play this game do it to have fun. And **** when was the actual last time I went on RDM/NIN? Three or four months ago? That is done once every blue moon, during Dyna Sandy / Bastok when I know for certain that it can't effect the overall loot intake. That is because if a single monster is left alive the blame will be placed on me and not the afk 4~5% WAR with HQ gear. I have gladly taken an agree to disagree approach and will always be happy in that.

The capabilities exist within the job, its got the potential, it just needs opportunities to express that potential.

---
And where the f*ck did the "occasional haste" comment come from? I've never been main heal in dyna as a Hybrid RDM. I always ensured I was married up with a WHM in a DD PT, my primary roles where refresh the WHM, spam Cure IV's on any melee getting their a$$ beat in, and just being a melee in general. Seriously just treat it like a really hard to kill melee with a Cure IV supply.

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Edit for Shadow

COR already plays pseudo RNG, sometimes with a joyuse. Their buffs are aoe and JA based, this puts a physical restriction on how much you can abuse them for buffs and guarantees them swing time. BRD's get almost zero melee time, songs just take entirely too long to sing and have to be song too often. BRD would be a so-so melee, strangely they got the gear just not the skill level nor any melee orientated abilities. In low man their pretty good, I've done many cool things as a Winja + RDM + BRD/NIN group. And yes skill has always trumped gear / job selection. That is the entire reason I do the whole melee hybrid RDM thing. Anyone can gear out a WAR / SAM / MNK / DRG and deal good damage, throw in a long time and some HQ gear and it becomes great damage, on paper at least. It is much harder to do so on RDM, your margin of error is pretty slim and the level of concentration required to track all those things is pretty nuts. I enjoy its challenge and thus while SAM is my #1 job forever, I remain dedicated to making the absolute most out of my RDM.

Edited, Sep 14th 2010 4:06pm by saevellakshmi
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#40 Sep 14 2010 at 10:06 AM Rating: Decent
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No one cares if you RDM/NIN in bastok, and we have enough of other jobs, and people. If we have 23 people, either be a support rdm, with the cycles, or be a SAM melee, so people know not to depend on you for the cycle. If we have appropriate support, go RDM/NIN, but *DON'T* brag about how well your doing, because then people are just going to pick out your flaws. Don't be such an arrogant *** and people wouldn't mind so much.

The underperformers don't get it as easy as you would like to believe, but it helps they stay out of sight, out of mind, instead of trying to be the spotlight.

Edited, Sep 14th 2010 11:08am by Toioiz
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#41 Sep 14 2010 at 10:13 AM Rating: Default
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Umm I've never bragged about how well I'm doing. Several times I've stated that if any full-DD is doing more damage then me then their either preoccupied, or need to gear their a$$ in gear. The time I mentioned that I was in the top 5, I followed up that statement that it spoke volumes about everyone else (melee wise). A RDM should ~never~ deal more damage then a comparably geared WAR / SAM / MNK / ect. I know I can achieve 80% of the damage of a comparably geared / skilled melee, that is the whole reason I use some of you guys as a benchmark. I know Eyr / Rass and friends are all very skilled and geared melee's and thus they make the best measuring sticks for what I'm capable of. I'm proud of what I've accomplished considering the sheer wall of negativity I've had to go through. It is ok for people to be proud of their accomplishments is it not?
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99 SAM, RDM, BLU, WAR, PLD, DRK

lolgaxe wrote:
Nothing in this game is impossible if you set yourself to the task of actually doing it. Even dumb people can only hold you back for so long.


Lucinus wrote:
when you're hefting something that deadly, you don't miss - mobs get the **** out of the way instead...
#42 Sep 14 2010 at 10:42 AM Rating: Decent
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It very much is good to be proud, but like the first person to get 5/5 on their Kindred's Crest, and then start doing *ding* 81 *ding* 82 *ding* 83, in linkshell, it's *really* annoying to others that either don't care, or have less luck. Sometimes it's better to know when to talk, and when to either keep it to yourself, or *know* who your talking to.

Conversations about not wanting to be a Support RDM in a party where a Support RDM would be ideal (ie. BLM party), don't really help your cause either, it would be better to just avoid the topic all together.

It all comes down to doing what's expected if needed, and most people who bring up the melee rdm "fun" ideal, aren't willing to in most cases. This defeats RDM's versatility. You need to be able to "support" and perform well, in order for this to be sucessful. Like it or not, RDM will always be held to a higher standard than every other job, mainly because it can *do* more than any other job. If your getting 80% damage of a SAM, but not performing any support, then it's seen as 80% of 100%, which is the same as that guy who went afk for 20% of the run.

Even if it *isn't* exactly like that, perception is all that really matters when dealing with *people*. If you want this to work, it isn't about *proving* anything, it's about getting others to *accept* something.

Edited, Sep 14th 2010 11:45am by Toioiz
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#43 Sep 14 2010 at 10:58 AM Rating: Default
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saevellakshmi wrote:


Edit for Shadow

COR already plays pseudo RNG, sometimes with a joyuse. Their buffs are aoe and JA based, this puts a physical restriction on how much you can abuse them for buffs and guarantees them swing time. BRD's get almost zero melee time, songs just take entirely too long to sing and have to be song too often. BRD would be a so-so melee, strangely they got the gear just not the skill level nor any melee orientated abilities. In low man their pretty good, I've done many cool things as a Winja + RDM + BRD/NIN group. And yes skill has always trumped gear / job selection. That is the entire reason I do the whole melee hybrid RDM thing. Anyone can gear out a WAR / SAM / MNK / DRG and deal good damage, throw in a long time and some HQ gear and it becomes great damage, on paper at least. It is much harder to do so on RDM, your margin of error is pretty slim and the level of concentration required to track all those things is pretty nuts. I enjoy its challenge and thus while SAM is my #1 job forever, I remain dedicated to making the absolute most out of my RDM.

Edited, Sep 14th 2010 4:06pm by saevellakshmi


I haven't played BRD in awhile so I had to check. Each song takes 8 seconds not counting Fast cast gears. So it you used 3 per cycle, that's 24 sec. COR might have instant /JA rolls, but that doesn't mean I don't have to waste time doubling up or using Snake eye which adds up the same. I don't agree with you Saevell, I've personally seen BRD's melee and they do it easier than us. Fencer only helps them as does QD for COR. RDM hybrids are casting cures, haste, other buffs including their own. I'd say RDM need more time to cast spells, not BRD. You have to skimp on your duties far too much to off-set that number. Meanwhile unlike a RDM hybrid, a BRD front-liner is adding upwards of 20% to each melee including themselves with buffs. The back-line WHM(healer) should already have Dia and haste covered on melee so you tell me which support helps more?

This same logic applies to COR. People have always said COR isn't a real DD which is kinda true. However, because COR's can buff their party, that increased performance is attributed to them. So if you add up all the increased damage/healing output from rolls, you'd see that COR's do "DD" in a matter of speaking. Basically what I'm suggesting here is RDM hybrids need something of their own that can't be done on the back-lines. A support hybrid should do 2 things. First, support the healing team. Second, be able to contribute enough damage to off-set losing another melee in that slot. DNC's seem to do this the easiest of all jobs. They have uber abilities for damage, support abilities, debuffs, and they can tank too if they pull hate.

I agree with you regarding the margin for error. I also want others to read that carefully. This a fine tightrope to walk to pull this off at those standards you listed. It's clear not everyone is capable of that. So to make the assumption that RDM melee is the proper path when most people would fail because of the skill required to perform is so high doesn't make much sense to me. Because honestly, a highly skilled played could show boat on any job and turn a few heads. That doesn't mean X job is a good melee hybrid though.
#44 Sep 14 2010 at 11:30 AM Rating: Good
Quote:
Having fun, is not having to listen to someone try to explain to 30+ other people what "their" idea of fun is.


Then quit complaining about it and let it happen. Simple solution really.

If he screws up, don't let him do it again for a while.

If not, let him do what he wants.
#45 Sep 14 2010 at 3:15 PM Rating: Good
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I would rather get through it quickly and move on to something fun that doesn't have the group to "complain" about it


There is no such event in this game and you know that. Campaign was about as casual as group events get in the game and people still felt entitled to complain about how others played based on their job.

It's a shame really because this is an MMORPG. If you take the "group" out, you're missing out on a big part of what being in an MMORPG is about.

Edited, Sep 14th 2010 5:18pm by Ketaru
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李張明 85/ RDM BST SCH
#46 Sep 14 2010 at 4:10 PM Rating: Decent
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You have to skimp on your duties far too much to off-set that number. Meanwhile unlike a RDM hybrid, a BRD front-liner is adding upwards of 20% to each melee including themselves with buffs. The back-line WHM(healer) should already have Dia and haste covered on melee so you tell me which support helps more?


I have to love the arbartrary refrences like "too much" and "duties". Situational **** is situational.

For instance. You compare WHM Dia to that of a RDM's, you're already down 5% between tier II and tier III, assuming that WHM even uses Dia at all, which is most likely no the case (sorry but we live in a world of facts, not 'should's). Then you have the issue between the limits of a BRDs buffs and RDM's debuffs. It's nice to claim that BRD provides a nice 20% damage boost, which is true if all you're running is a single party full of jobs that are pure bread and butter DDs. Tack in any pet jobs or any jobs that use other sources of damage besides straight melee, and you loose that advantage instantly.

Defence Down, however, is universal, more universal than haste, in and of the fact that it affects every physical damage calculation from Melee to WS to Ranged to Pet Damage to Blue Spells. It also spans further than 'party wide' such as bards go. So the larger your group, the more important the defence reduction is. Again, best refrence here is "Angon on every mob, that STACKS with Angon." For the frontline rdm/dnc. This is on top of the future haste samba and drain samba and aspir samba depending on your situation.

Depending on your situation, sure BRD can do a whole lot with it's situation (More than RDM with more ease so long as he's placed correctly.) But then again, they also sacrafice something in that situation. BRD's complications with melee are similar to RDMs in the fact that BRDs who are not toting around a Relic will suffer potency/druation issues to keep from having to constantly swap their instraments to prevent TP wipe. However, instead of it being a mear Macc issue (like with elemental staves.) It really does have a pretty sizable effect on BRD's support aspects.

In the end, say if you had both a BRD and a RDM that wanted to take the front lines for a Dynamis run, put the BRD in the heavy DD party and RDM in the tank party with a WHM (Or SCH) and you'd be set.

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There's another matter here we need to bring up.

With the shift in endgame, especially concerning the relative ease of endgame thus far, I beleive players in general are taking themselves and people around them far too seriously.

Granted, a lot of some of the things in game (like magian trials) still do take a bit of work and effort to get accomplished. But most of it is simply time sinks. "Hard Fights" are usually reserved to the HNM level that most Red Mages are completely fine back-lining for.

Abyssea EXP parties themselves allow for level 30 leeches to sit and do nothing but pop chests while virtually anyone could do key management without as much loss to party performance.

City Dynamis is so laughable now that laymen groups are clearning the zone completely out with time to spare.

So really what is the conflict here. "Time effiency?" "You could do better on X job with Y combination?" Please. These are semantics arguments at best barely even factoring in to the game proper when gimp DDs and half *** mages are far more commonplace than any anti-melee camper can bare to admit.

Yet people are crying wolf over the tiniest things like not maintaining an absolute perfect haste cycle or not pulling as much damages as a dedicated DD. To that I ask, so what?

"I Could have spent that 10 minutes doing attempts on my AF3 quest" is total and utter ********* If you're in Dynamis, you're doing dynamis, you're not like "omg I gotta get dynamis done so I can run to abyssea to turn in my galkan sausages!" If you're that pent up to do that, you've either already done it before dynamis prep time or you're so obsessed that you're going to do it after regardless of how long Dynamis took.

People really need to lighten up and get a grip on reality. In 90% of the situations a RDM would even bother arguing front lining, it's not even an issue if they do or not. It's not 2005 anymore.
#47 Sep 14 2010 at 4:24 PM Rating: Good
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Tack in any pet jobs or any jobs that use other sources of damage besides straight melee, and you loose that advantage instantly.


There's a very simple solution to this that min-and-maxers upheld for years until the game developers finally realized there was something that was genuinely wrong with this scenario- don't invite pet jobs.

...

...Yeah, I know. Another "BST had it bad for years" plug in. It's not so bad anymore. But WHMs and RDMs (who aren't me) still think it's unnecessary to give me Haste. My weaponskills do some 1100 damage now. Why the @(%# wouldn't they give me Haste?

Edited, Sep 14th 2010 6:29pm by Ketaru
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李張明 85/ RDM BST SCH
#48 Sep 14 2010 at 4:45 PM Rating: Good
I, on the other hand, love pet jobs. I love blue mages for the same reason: I help them more than I help your average DD.

Heavy DDs get deminishing returns off of Dia III and other defence down cause they already are pushing themselves towards the cap difference. The above listed jobs however, don't benefit as much from upping that spectrum due to other sources of damage. Defence Down pushes up the performance of all low attack jobs, pets, and abilities such as BLU Magic. Provided it's kept up dependably, it's about the same return you'd get from berserk over time. (Picture that, Berserk for Blue Magic.)

It's amazing that after so many years, Defence down is still vastly underrated, yet second to haste, it's one of your most effective ways of increasing damage output. (Assuming acc is ok.)
#49 Sep 14 2010 at 5:56 PM Rating: Excellent
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All the same, even min-maxers agree that BST is a perfectly competent damage dealer as long as they are properly geared. That was what is wrong with this discussion of RDM's frontline capabilities, where we talk about how an excellently geared meleeing RDM can match a mediocre AH-grade damage dealer. And when you factor in casting spells such as Haste and Dia III, it pulls ahead.

These are the same min-maxers who think you cannot compare an excellently geared meleeing RDM to a mediocre AH-grade dealer; you must compare an excellently geared meleeing RDM to an excellently geared RA/EX god-geared homam-decked salvage-savvy damage dealer. These same min-maxers agree that BST is a perfectly competent damage dealer as long as they are geared properly. Yet when it comes time to put the "shoulds" into practice, they do not invite pet jobs under their excuse that the "world of facts" is that most pet job players are not properly geared- "BST can be a DD, but most of them wear CHR gear and AF blah blah."

Use the "shoulds" for discussion, and the "world of facts" for when it comes time to pick from the pool of potential applicants of who to fill your 6 man parade with. And ****, min-maxing? If you see a BST soloing in a camp, it's perfectly justified to camp over them because "6 peoples' EXP is worth more than 1". Who was there first be damned.

Perhaps in a world where I didn't play a previously undesirable job, I might've just sat back and said "Yeah, melee RDM is fun. But ideally, it would never outdamage the real deal." Alas, that's not the world we live in. In the world we live in, I have little but contempt for min-maxers and the way they interchangeably use the "shoulds" and "world of facts" as they see fit.

Edited, Sep 14th 2010 8:15pm by Ketaru
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李張明 85/ RDM BST SCH
#50 Sep 14 2010 at 6:41 PM Rating: Default
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Hyrist, ****** Superhero wrote:


I have to love the arbartrary refrences like "too much" and "duties". Situational sh*t is situational.

For instance. You compare WHM Dia to that of a RDM's, you're already down 5% between tier II and tier III, assuming that WHM even uses Dia at all, which is most likely no the case (sorry but we live in a world of facts, not 'should's). Then you have the issue between the limits of a BRDs buffs and RDM's debuffs. It's nice to claim that BRD provides a nice 20% damage boost, which is true if all you're running is a single party full of jobs that are pure bread and butter DDs. Tack in any pet jobs or any jobs that use other sources of damage besides straight melee, and you loose that advantage instantly.


Well considering most group events including Abyssea use 2-3 parties, I believe my point is valid. Let's say we have 3 RDM's in the alliance. One of them is front-lining and the other 2 are back-lining. Are you seriously going to argue that the front-line RDM is offering anything of value that you can't get anywhere else? Hate free en-spells maybe? DRG,BST, and THF got the enmity angle covered. BLU and DNC plunk down far more damage plus have healing tools to support. What I would like to see is a purpose to front-line beyond personal reasons or sheer boredom of the job. I don't believe that is asking for too much. If RDM had a special samba-like spell that lowered defense by 15% when we melee the mobs that STACKED with Dia III, that would be enough for me.

Quote:

In the end, say if you had both a BRD and a RDM that wanted to take the front lines for a Dynamis run, put the BRD in the heavy DD party and RDM in the tank party with a WHM (Or SCH) and you'd be set.


This is a bad example because you could come RDM/nothing and own Dynamis at 85. Level capped events are not good examples, try again.

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Quote:

So really what is the conflict here. "Time effiency?" "You could do better on X job with Y combination?" Please. These are semantics arguments at best barely even factoring in to the game proper when gimp DDs and half *** mages are far more commonplace than any anti-melee camper can bare to admit.

Yet people are crying wolf over the tiniest things like not maintaining an absolute perfect haste cycle or not pulling as much damages as a dedicated DD. To that I ask, so what?

"I Could have spent that 10 minutes doing attempts on my AF3 quest" is total and utter bullsh*t. If you're in Dynamis, you're doing dynamis, you're not like "omg I gotta get dynamis done so I can run to abyssea to turn in my galkan sausages!" If you're that pent up to do that, you've either already done it before dynamis prep time or you're so obsessed that you're going to do it after regardless of how long Dynamis took.

People really need to lighten up and get a grip on reality. In 90% of the situations a RDM would even bother arguing front lining, it's not even an issue if they do or not. It's not 2005 anymore.


I agree with you in terms of the capped content. However, killing NM's in Abyssea where you're on a timer is NOT the place to have less than the ultimate setup. Who honestly cares in Limbus and Dynamis anymore, I sure don't.
#51 Sep 14 2010 at 8:00 PM Rating: Good
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ShadowedgeFFXI wrote:
The back-line WHM(healer) should already have Dia...covered...


...



Dia III is quite possibly the best 45 MP you can spend for your group unless it's full of Sams. Sure haste is an amazing 40 MP spell that can increase a DDs damage from +17%-+225% but Dia III increases the ENTIRE alliances attack by about the equivalent of a Minuet IV. Add a Box Step onto that and you get pretty close to the effect of Min IV + III if your melees have at least 400 attack (they should) Not to mention that it's stupidly fast to cast and you should have the MP for it.

Please, if you are in a position to melee, DON'T leave Dia to the Whm, yours is so much better and you benefit the MOST from the extra attack as well.

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saevellakshmi wrote:
Brd would be a so-so melee, strangely they got the gear just not the skill level nor any melee orientated abilities


They have a B- >.>
That's only 10 less then ours and their gear more then makes up for it.
In addition they actually GET decent Weapon Skills.

Not to mention the reason they don't have any abilities because they would be incredibly broken is they had JAs in addition to their songs. I mean yeah the other DDs get their songs as well as the brd but that's part of being a support job, but I wouldn't be surprised at all if a Brd can come close to an unbuffed DD simply because who needs JAs when you have 20 haste or 100 attack or 50 accuracy. Sure the DD may be rockin 35-40 haste by himself but the bard can grab up to 50-60 haste by himself. Not to mention they CAN gear their songs to cast really fast which could be useful for poppin 2 mads/mins before your WS then resinging your marches that were probably pretty close to wearing off anyway.

But yeah, the entire reason Blu and Cor work is because they barely have to spend any of their time buffing or casting compared to us. When we have to cast 6 spells every 3 mins in addition to cures and Dia III not only does it eat our MP but it eats our time as well. The new gear that "Enhances Enhancing Magic Duration" seems like SE might actually be listening to us. If that can apply to other people and if they add maybe at least 1 min to each of our spells that means Haste wears off every 5 mins as opposed to every 3 mins. Not sure about you but that essentially answers BOTH of our primary problems when meleeing. They may not in the end give us a way to AoE refresh but this may very well be the next best thing. Just not having to cast it nearly as often. I mean 2 pieces alone if they add 2 mins gives us 2 more mins of free time in addition of saving us an entire haste cycle worth of MP every time composure is up. These enhancements may be HUGE if they are worth it (not to mention if it stacks with composure our buffs will like never wear off XD).

Sure, they could be near worthless too like the Buzzard Tucks enhancement to extend enspells by 3 secs, but these enhancements could very well be something we've needed for a long time.

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ShadowedgeFFXI wrote:
If RDM had a special samba-like spell that lowered defense by 15% when we melee the mobs that STACKED with Dia III, that would be enough for me.


This?

Seriously, you should try it. It's not something you use all the time, but it has it's niches. Not to mention if you are going to kill 750 vermin for the 2-3x sword it shouldn't conflict with you at all since you could complete one or 2 of these and 1-2 of the -PDT swords since half of their trials you can practically complete in quicksand caves killing beetles.

If you are going to massacre vermin, might as well get some amazing swords while doing it at the same time.

Edited, Sep 14th 2010 10:13pm by SlashAnonymous
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