Forum Settings
       
Reply To Thread

What is our purpose?Follow

#52 Sep 14 2010 at 9:18 PM Rating: Decent



Let me quote myself cause you didn't get it the first sixteen times it's been said on these boards.

Quote:

Granted, a lot of some of the things in game (like magian trials) still do take a bit of work and effort to get accomplished. But most of it is simply time sinks. "Hard Fights" are usually reserved to the HNM level that most Red Mages are completely fine back-lining for.


Quote:
People really need to lighten up and get a grip on reality. In 90% of the situations a RDM would even bother arguing front lining, it's not even an issue if they do or not. It's not 2005 anymore.


Let me say it yet again.

In most situation in which RDM is asking to be up front Meleeing, there is little to no conflict of interests to the group at large. Most events such as Dynamis, Limbus, Einerhar, Etc, are reaching a state of desirability and difficulty in which it simply does not matter if the RDM is regimented to the front lines. In fact, even recent battlefields like Abyssea EXP parties are on in the range of possibility. The only event in which RDM's front line desires might even be in question is Walk of Echoes.


All situations in which dangerous NMs are involved, RDMs (even those of the melee variety) have no issues taking the back line.


THE BOTTOM LINE DESIRES FOR RED MAGES IN THE FRONT LINES IS "MELEE FODDER, MAGIC BOSSES."


There, have I been clear enough? Or do I need to make a YouTube video?


Edited, Sep 15th 2010 12:16am by Hyrist
#53ShadowedgeFFXI, Posted: Sep 14 2010 at 10:53 PM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) So what you're really saying here is you want the option to melee when it doesn't matter if you melee or not. In that case, every job should be meleeing. Let's pretend it's Campaign, no... no... no... I can do better than that. Let's pretend we're playing an offline Final Fantasy and every job melees because it's your $59.99 and historical accuracy must be observed above all else. I'm curious, does that mean NIN's should spam shurikens too? God I hope so, I'd love to see happen personally.
#54 Sep 15 2010 at 12:25 AM Rating: Good
*
122 posts
Woah, deja vu.

I really don't see why there's an arguement here. RDM is the jack-of-all-trades, the slot filler, the Mike Rowe of FFXI. The biggest part of this identity crisis people are having stems from the focus on magic. The most recent updates gave us tier 4 nukes just to make sure we're not totally left in the dust. It should only be fair our melee side is given that same nudge. Lifting the caps on enspells and a potential Gain-STR are a step in the right direction with Fencer being the next logical step.

The point has been hammered in endlessly that we're not SAMs. We're not WHM either. Nor are we BLM, SCH, PLD, DRK, DNC, or BLU.

We are RDM. We're supposed to be the hybrid job. You can't be the hybrid job when an entire aspect is being shunned.
____________________________
Quote:
Can't sleep, PUPs will eat me.
#55 Sep 15 2010 at 1:06 AM Rating: Good
Jack of All Trades
******
29,217 posts
Quote:
Dia III is quite possibly the best 45 MP you can spend for your group unless it's full of Sams BLMs.


ftfy
#56 Sep 15 2010 at 2:12 AM Rating: Good
Scholar
****
4,589 posts
Quote:
So what you're really saying here is you want the option to melee when it doesn't matter if you melee or not. In that case, every job should be meleeing.


RDM can keep up MP better than any other mage job unless they sub RDM. (In which case it would be similar). Subbing RDM however would hurt their damage dealing potential to the point where meleeing would be stupid. Even if they sub RDM I still got a better convert. (8:20 recast compared to 10:00)

BRD has a B- in dagger and lacks Composure, so we're already 24~ accuracy ahead of them unless they use Madrigal. BRD also lacks enspells. You know how much attack it would take to get a dagger to reach +21 damage per swing? It would take double minuet to pull that off. BRD does have better melee gear than us (They can wear kitty pants ffs). BRD also has a more difficult time meleeing because songs only have a two minute duration, and if there is a mix/match of melee's and mages in the party, they have to run back and forth using 8 second cast time songs. (Which can be pushed down to what? 5 or 6 seconds?) Sure, RDM has to cast 4 second cast time spells up to five times, but they get 7 1/2 - 9 minute buffs on themself, and will still most likely spend less time casting than a BRD will. (Refresh is 2 1/2 minutes, Haste is 3 minutes, each BRD song is 2 minutes.) Then there is also the debate of Dia III, etc.

Can BRD melee better than RDM? I don't really think they'd swing harder (Swords have higher damage, enspells are +21, etc). I think their WS would do more, yeah. They also could swing a bit faster. (All i'm seeing is they have about 2% haste over us, unless i'm missing something. Also, daggers have lower delay.) Do I think they'll actually do more than a RDM? No. Enspells are really just that good. BRD has to spend a lot more time casting than a RDM as well. I'm working on the STR/attack D52 Shamshir at the moment (Higher DMG sword than BRD will get dagger by quite a lot), and the numbers I am seeing without it even fully upgraded is pretty impressive.

If you want to argue a BRD in the melee party by himself, and a RDM in a mage party by himself, then of course the BRD would do more, because double march is better than Haste is. If you put a BRD and RDM in the same party, though, I think the RDM would do more.

BTW, RDM does a pretty good job meleeing in Walk of Echoes, besides the boss mobs, of course.

Edited, Sep 15th 2010 4:16am by Zafire

Edited, Sep 15th 2010 4:17am by Zafire
____________________________
Hume male, Zafire, Server: Sylph
50DNC, 50SMN, 50BRD, 50SAM, 50DRG, 50WHM, 52THF, 52COR, 52MNK, 58BST, 60WAR, 67PLD, 69PUP, 75RNG, 75SCH, 75BLM, 80NIN, 80DRK, 85BLU, 85RDM
Retired since February 2011.
All SJ's capped for LVL99!

#57 Sep 15 2010 at 2:17 AM Rating: Good
One flew over the cuckoo's nest
Avatar
******
29,185 posts
Brd has ~7 more haste than rdm (march x2 vs haste), unless they're /whm, then they get 22% more...

Not sure where you're getting 2% from.
____________________________
BANNED

Creator and Leader of the Anti-Rog faction
#58 Sep 15 2010 at 2:20 AM Rating: Decent
Scholar
****
4,589 posts
Quote:
Not sure where you're getting 2% from.


Yeah, I edited my post. ****, you reply fast. If they sub WHM and melee though, they probably wont be mainhanding an OAT and their WS will suffer, and they'll lose the extra delay reduction from dual wield.

Quote:
Not sure where you're getting 2% from.


BRD can wear kitty pants and RDM can only wear the ASA pants with Haste+3. If you stuck a BRD by himself and a RDM by himself, the BRD would do more, hands down. If you stuck a RDM and a BRD together, though, the RDM would do more. That's my opinion anyways.
____________________________
Hume male, Zafire, Server: Sylph
50DNC, 50SMN, 50BRD, 50SAM, 50DRG, 50WHM, 52THF, 52COR, 52MNK, 58BST, 60WAR, 67PLD, 69PUP, 75RNG, 75SCH, 75BLM, 80NIN, 80DRK, 85BLU, 85RDM
Retired since February 2011.
All SJ's capped for LVL99!

#59 Sep 15 2010 at 2:22 AM Rating: Decent
One flew over the cuckoo's nest
Avatar
******
29,185 posts
Zafire wrote:
Quote:
Not sure where you're getting 2% from.
BRD can wear kitty pants and RDM can only wear the ASA pants with Haste+3. If you stuck a BRD by himself and a RDM by himself, the BRD would do more, hands down. If you stuck a RDM and a BRD together, though, the RDM would do more. That's my opinion anyways.
Oh, right, rdm won't cap haste. So brd has an even bigger advantage there.
____________________________
BANNED

Creator and Leader of the Anti-Rog faction
#60 Sep 15 2010 at 2:50 AM Rating: Good
Scholar
****
4,589 posts
Quote:
Oh, right, rdm won't cap haste. So brd has an even bigger advantage there.


What's the difference in damage between 80% attack speed and 78% attack speed?

I suck at math, enlighten me.

Edited, Sep 15th 2010 4:50am by Zafire
____________________________
Hume male, Zafire, Server: Sylph
50DNC, 50SMN, 50BRD, 50SAM, 50DRG, 50WHM, 52THF, 52COR, 52MNK, 58BST, 60WAR, 67PLD, 69PUP, 75RNG, 75SCH, 75BLM, 80NIN, 80DRK, 85BLU, 85RDM
Retired since February 2011.
All SJ's capped for LVL99!

#61 Sep 15 2010 at 2:50 AM Rating: Decent
One flew over the cuckoo's nest
Avatar
******
29,185 posts
Zafire wrote:
Quote:
Oh, right, rdm won't cap haste. So brd has an even bigger advantage there.
What's the difference in damage between 80% attack speed and 78% attack speed?
4%. That's kind of a lot.
____________________________
BANNED

Creator and Leader of the Anti-Rog faction
#62 Sep 15 2010 at 2:55 AM Rating: Decent
Scholar
****
4,589 posts
Quote:
4%. That's kind of a lot.


I think a RDM would easily be doing at least 10% more/swing. The BRD would have a higher WS frequency, though, so I guess the BRD would win, by a little bit.
____________________________
Hume male, Zafire, Server: Sylph
50DNC, 50SMN, 50BRD, 50SAM, 50DRG, 50WHM, 52THF, 52COR, 52MNK, 58BST, 60WAR, 67PLD, 69PUP, 75RNG, 75SCH, 75BLM, 80NIN, 80DRK, 85BLU, 85RDM
Retired since February 2011.
All SJ's capped for LVL99!

#63 Sep 15 2010 at 3:24 AM Rating: Good
*
80 posts
Hyrist, ****** Superhero wrote:
Depending on your situation, sure BRD can do a whole lot with it's situation (More than RDM with more ease so long as he's placed correctly.) But then again, they also sacrafice something in that situation. BRD's complications with melee are similar to RDMs in the fact that BRDs who are not toting around a Relic will suffer potency/druation issues to keep from having to constantly swap their instraments to prevent TP wipe. However, instead of it being a mear Macc issue (like with elemental staves.) It really does have a pretty sizable effect on BRD's support aspects.


Been reading through this post, and this was just something I had to comment on. As a Battle BRD (when the situation allows for it), I know for a fact switching instruments does not deplete TP. I tend to do my buffs in the appropriate instrument, and then switch in Angel Lyre (Haste +2%) when I'm TPing.

Also, while I'm on the topic of RDM melee vs. BRD melee - we don't have a whole lot of time in a 4 song rotation unless we make it. If we're giving 2 songs to melees and 2 songs to mages, we don't have much time, unless we're packing huge -songcasting time. That is why I enjoy fully merited Nightingale and Troubadour, it allows the BRD to do other stuff, sometimes meleeing. And if the BRD is in a melee only (or mage only) party, they certainly have time to melee.

Edited, Sep 15th 2010 5:32am by apresmoi
#64 Sep 15 2010 at 4:12 AM Rating: Decent
***
2,890 posts
Toioiz wrote:
It very much is good to be proud, but like the first person to get 5/5 on their Kindred's Crest, and then start doing *ding* 81 *ding* 82 *ding* 83, in linkshell, it's *really* annoying to others that either don't care, or have less luck. Sometimes it's better to know when to talk, and when to either keep it to yourself, or *know* who your talking to.

Conversations about not wanting to be a Support RDM in a party where a Support RDM would be ideal (ie. BLM party), don't really help your cause either, it would be better to just avoid the topic all together.

It all comes down to doing what's expected if needed, and most people who bring up the melee rdm "fun" ideal, aren't willing to in most cases. This defeats RDM's versatility. You need to be able to "support" and perform well, in order for this to be sucessful. Like it or not, RDM will always be held to a higher standard than every other job, mainly because it can *do* more than any other job. If your getting 80% damage of a SAM, but not performing any support, then it's seen as 80% of 100%, which is the same as that guy who went afk for 20% of the run.

Even if it *isn't* exactly like that, perception is all that really matters when dealing with *people*. If you want this to work, it isn't about *proving* anything, it's about getting others to *accept* something.

Edited, Sep 14th 2010 11:45am by Toioiz


And this is why are getting all screwed up right now. I ~NEVER~ discussed being a melee RDM in a freaking BLM party. That would be the height of stupidity. I specifically discussed being a RDM/SCH in a BLM PT and lamenting on how spamming refresh II x 4 would lock us in Light Arts mode and prevent us from doing much in Dark Arts mode. You don't melee as /SCH or in dark arts mode. You cast things like Sleep / Gravity / Bind / Aero IV / and occasionally do a sleepga III (Sabatour + Manifestation + Sleep II). Yes RDM gets a 3 min aoe sleep now, something no other job in the game can do currently. I was talking about the ~mage~ side of RDM when I wrote that whole discussion, yet somehow I got called "lazy" for not wanting to do more then refresh II x 4. Yes people deliberately misinterpreted my entire discussion out of hatred for my support of melee RDM. You've actually been agreeing with me this whole discussion but have yet to realize it. I support RDM melee when its applicable, and I happen to carry a set of "mage" gear on me that includes a few HQ staves for when **** hits the fan and I need to revert to cure IV / sleep spam *****.

RDM should ~never~ melee in the following situations,
#1) When your being relied on to be main heal for a party, the exception is some /DNC + Joy setup on merit level stuff. Possibly with a bunch of BLU's on a target that you can aspir samba so they can absorb fck tons of MP from.

#2) When your expected to backup a WHM in a tank party. In this role it is vital to focus on keeping the tanks alive and the situation under control. Meleeing might be acceptable if your fighting "ash and trash" mobs but never vs anything NM / dangerous like. Your mileage may vary.

#3) Your in a BLM heavy group where your tasks are crowd control and magic damage. Your entirely too busy playing mini-BLM to be meleeing. For a few months you could just LA + accession + refresh, maybe cast a fresh skin / haste then DA and continue on with your mission. But now you must weight the advantage of 3mp/tick for the BLM's vs not having your available for much else. Especially with BLM's now having convert and Aspir II. Situational choices and your mileage may varry. Also remember that mega sleepga III, super bindga, or graviga (once they fix it) won't be available if your predominately in LA mode due to LA / DA timers.

-=Edit=-

Slash I was referring to BRD's sword skill which is C-. Off handing a multi-attacking has long been shown to be where the majority of damage comes from for RDM. BRD is in a similar situation, they need to offhand joy as either /NIN or /DNC while main handing Blau. BRD has access to some pretty amazing gear and it wouldn't be difficult to setup a solid melee build, but their stats are meh and doing 4x songs (march x2 ballad x2) would put a serious dent in swing time. RDM's just do refresh II on the healer then spam Dia III on everything that moves. Composure eliminated our buffing issues. Now in PT dynamic nobody beats a BRD for group support, any melee dong is just icing on the cake to the +20% haste they provide everyone. But remember in any party your in the RDM gets the same buffs the BRD just sang, just like everyone else gets the +17.6% or +25% attack buff the RDM puts out.

Edited, Sep 15th 2010 10:19am by saevellakshmi
____________________________
RoTZ: Complete DM: O
CoP: Complete AN: O
99 SAM, RDM, BLU, WAR, PLD, DRK

lolgaxe wrote:
Nothing in this game is impossible if you set yourself to the task of actually doing it. Even dumb people can only hold you back for so long.


Lucinus wrote:
when you're hefting something that deadly, you don't miss - mobs get the **** out of the way instead...
#65 Sep 15 2010 at 4:24 AM Rating: Good
Scholar
****
4,589 posts
Quote:
And this is why are getting all screwed up right now. I ~NEVER~ discussed being a melee RDM in a freaking BLM party. That would be the height of stupidity. I specifically discussed being a RDM/SCH in a BLM PT and lamenting on how spamming refresh II x 4 would lock us in Light Arts mode and prevent us from doing much in Dark Arts mode. You don't melee as /SCH or in dark arts mode. You cast things like Sleep / Gravity / Bind / Aero IV / and occasionally do a sleepga III (Sabatour + Manifestation + Sleep II). Yes RDM gets a 3 min aoe sleep now, something no other job in the game can do currently. I was talking about the ~mage~ side of RDM when I wrote that whole discussion, yet somehow I got called "lazy" for not wanting to do more then refresh II x 4. Yes people deliberately misinterpreted my entire discussion out of hatred for my support of melee RDM. You've actually been agreeing with me this whole discussion but have yet to realize it. I support RDM melee when its applicable, and I happen to carry a set of "mage" gear on me that includes a few HQ staves for when **** hits the fan and I need to revert to cure IV / sleep spam *****.

RDM should ~never~ melee in the following situations,
#1) When your being relied on to be main heal for a party, the exception is some /DNC + Joy setup on merit level stuff. Possibly with a bunch of BLU's on a target that you can aspir samba so they can absorb fck tons of MP from.


BLM party: Why not? Refresh II takes 5 seconds to cast and lasts 2 1/2 minutes. Casting on 5 people, that leaves you with two minutes to melee.

Main Healer: Why not? Sub DNC and don't weaponskill. It's actually easier. My RDM/DNC has double multi-hit weapons for example and I can gain TP at a very fast rate. I'm sure if TP became easy and you had 5 finishing moves you could probably toss in a weaponskill or two, or if your MP was good. You can also add Box Step and soon you'll be able to add Haste Samba. You could be a main healer that helps the DD's deal damage in ways DNC can't do (5% less attack speed from Haste Samba, but RDM can cast Haste and Dia III).

Quote:
#2) When your expected to backup a WHM in a tank party. In this role it is vital to focus on keeping the tanks alive and the situation under control. Meleeing might be acceptable if your fighting "ash and trash" mobs but never vs anything NM / dangerous like. Your mileage may vary.


Might be? If you're co-healing with the WHM it's not like you have to dedicate yourself to it. On tough HNM mobs you can't melee anyways, of course you have to dedicate yourself, but on "ash and trash" mobs, it's better to melee, imo.

Quote:
#3) Your in a BLM heavy group where your tasks are crowd control and magic damage. Your entirely too busy playing mini-BLM to be meleeing. For a few months you could just LA + accession + refresh, maybe cast a fresh skin / haste then DA and continue on with your mission. But now you must weight the advantage of 3mp/tick for the BLM's vs not having your available for much else. Especially with BLM's now having convert and Aspir II. Situational choices and your mileage may varry. Also remember that mega sleepga III, super bindga, or graviga (once they fix it) won't be available if your predominately in LA mode due to LA / DA timers.


Agreed.

____________________________
Hume male, Zafire, Server: Sylph
50DNC, 50SMN, 50BRD, 50SAM, 50DRG, 50WHM, 52THF, 52COR, 52MNK, 58BST, 60WAR, 67PLD, 69PUP, 75RNG, 75SCH, 75BLM, 80NIN, 80DRK, 85BLU, 85RDM
Retired since February 2011.
All SJ's capped for LVL99!

#66 Sep 15 2010 at 9:43 AM Rating: Good
***
2,890 posts
Wow newest dynamis parse with me on RDM is 17 May 2010 in Dyna Sandy. I was in the top three. Not dieing due to Stoneskin / Blinks / Magic Defense Bonus and your own pocket supply of cure is pretty helpful for total damage dealt. Our super MNK was on RNG that day but everyone else was on their A+ jobs.

Damage Summary 
Player               Total Dmg   Damage %   Melee Dmg   Range Dmg   Abil. Dmg  WSkill Dmg   Spell Dmg  Other Dmg 
Saevel                  151461     8.66 %       76666           0           0       41525        2184      31086 
Total                  1748715   100.00 %      764155       17752       30432      521338      369413      32734 
 
 
 


Melee Damage 
Player            Melee Dmg   Melee %   Hit/Miss   M.Acc %  M.Low/Hi    M.Avg  #Crit  C.Low/Hi   C.Avg     Crit% 
Saevel                76666   50.62 %   2162/275   88.72 %      0/73    32.67    185     0/109   65.26    8.56 % 


Weaponskill Damage 
Player                 WSkill Dmg   WSkill %  Hit/Miss   WS.Acc %   WS.Low/Hi   WS.Avg 
Saevel                      41525    27.42 %     101/0   100.00 %       0/648   411.14 
 - Death Blossom            41525   100.00 %     101/0   100.00 %       0/648   411.14 
 


Other Magical Damage  (Additional Effects and Spikes) 
Player            M.AE Dmg  # M.AE  M.AE Avg   R.AE Dmg  # R.AE  R.AE Avg   Spk.Dmg  # Spike  Spk.Avg 
Saevel               31187    1791     17.41          0       0      0.00         0        0     0.00 
 


And now for the healing contribution. I was spamming cure's on the melee's in my party to alleviate some of the WHM's MP. I told the melee to unload and sponge it up.

Curing (Whm spells or equivalent) 
 
Player           Cured (Sp)  Cured (Ab)  C.1s  C.2s  C.3s  C.4s  C.5s  C.6s  Curagas  Rg.1s  Rg.2s  Rg.3s 
Saevel               28489           0      0     0    15    87     0     0        0      4      0      0 
 
Curing Costs and Efficiency (estimated) 
 
Player              MP Spent   Cure Eff.   Cure+Regen Eff.   TP Spent   TP Cure Eff. 
Saevel                  8406       3.41              3.45           0          0.00 


I started out refreshing my WHM but he eventually told me to just let him use sublimation and that he would ask if he needed refresh. I took a total of 8287 damage during this run. My contribution was damage + 28K HP healed + support (although my WHM opted to take care of himself most of the time) and the occasional dispel / dia (on PLD and THF mobs). I was a very very difficult melee to kill off. Now I'm assuming several of our guys took an AFK break where I rarely take one, all told I was probably #5 or so after you take afking into consideration. This was also at 75. I would love to get newer data with me at 85 with the alterations I've done to my build.

Edited, Sep 15th 2010 3:44pm by saevellakshmi
____________________________
RoTZ: Complete DM: O
CoP: Complete AN: O
99 SAM, RDM, BLU, WAR, PLD, DRK

lolgaxe wrote:
Nothing in this game is impossible if you set yourself to the task of actually doing it. Even dumb people can only hold you back for so long.


Lucinus wrote:
when you're hefting something that deadly, you don't miss - mobs get the **** out of the way instead...
#67ShadowedgeFFXI, Posted: Sep 15 2010 at 11:07 AM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) You're missing part of the picture Zafire which I already explained. You credit RDM en-spell damage, but you conveniently forget to include the attributed bonus from songs to melee. That's the reason why the BRD is there in the first place and yet you missed it. Don't say it's obvious when you didn't even credit BRD for that damage contributed via buffs. RDM hybrids can't stack haste on top of other forms of haste like BRD can. Animated wail, Hastega, WHM haste etc. Comparing melee skills of RDM and BRD without accounting for all factors defeats the point of comparing altogether. By the way, most BRD's have a huge advantage in the leg department too. Kitty pants trump anything RDM can buy off the AH easily. You have to augment legs to 3% haste/7ACC just to come close.
#68 Sep 15 2010 at 11:08 AM Rating: Excellent
Quote:
It's quite humorous that you the avid RDM melee defender of justice think in such small terms.



It's funny you peg me as the avid melee defender of justice. I defend the facts, instead of going "Woe is me, what ever will the Hardcore player-base think of my job!"

There's quite a bit a RDM can melee on all the way up through some of the notorious monsters we once shied away from. The things you claim are 'small terms' are even still matters for large contention throughout some of the misinformed player-base. Further support to RDM's melee side would alleviate some of this contention and likely broaden our possibility for using it. However a lot of what RDM has to offer, is underplayed. But on the same time, some advocates forgot just how much we already have open to us in this avenue. I strongly believe that a lot of avid enthusiasts would settle down to more realistic levels if they were to just man up and do it (and do it right.)

People who mistakenly pit me in the extreme are the ones not paying attention to my arguments. I've never claimed we should be meleeing on the dangerously hard NMs in the game. Honestly, that is where the Enfeebling comes in, in my view.

My primary concerns surrounding Red Mage were addressed this update. I said that we needed something new to the job that was not simply tier-ups of what we already had. We received this in the form of Gain Spells and Saboteur, ****, they even threw in Addle for what it's worth.

Your disconcerting yourself based on the fact that the MP restoration issues that once marred every mage job in the game has now been addressed. To be honest I view this as a long overdue fix. With the way this game is designed, MP restoration in this game should NOT be an issue. The way RDM got into parties because of Refresh and Haste was a crutch, a poorly designed crutch that really marred the perception of this job class continually throughout the years.

Now the game is changing, rather radically. EXP/Merits is obtained on one's own or through Alliances, with actual parties being the rare exception now instead of the standard. Older pieces of gear are finally becoming easier to obtain due to level cap increase, or becoming obsolete. And Abyssea, where the newer, more powerful gear is a mixed bag of NMs, each of which will be their own unique circumstance on whether or not Meleeing will be worth while.

But in the end, some things will not change. For instance, we sit and compare on how this combination and that combination does a better job than RDM. But look at how the game is. SE is piratically discouraging people from having multiple jobs beyond level 75 with the level of work it takes to get the pieces of Emyperian gear finalized. The Magian Weapons themselves are time consuming enough to prevent some from bringing more than a few choice pieces up.

Sure, you might not need a RDM in a team of 6 BLM/RDMs, but how many BLM's does your linkshell have? And sure, a BRD/WHM (Or a BRD/RDM later on) Could do a lot of support for one party. But when that bard starts getting rotated for Alliance wide Buffs on bosses, someone's going to need to be there for hastes, and putting a RDM in there means you have Saboteur on for a debuff as well (Multiple means multiple Saboteur debuffs as well.)


We have our Niche. It's not any one thing, but the accumulation of what we can do. With 14 levels still to go and the face of endgame not quiet yet fully developed, it's pointless to panic. RDM, out of all classes in the game is the most adaptable. We will always have something to do that will have players say "Get the RDM."

I like what I've seen so far from SE. They're slow about it and I'd like more melee support. But I've no concerns as to our role in the game, nor on how other jobs conceive us, as even though MP restoration isn't a huge issue, we'll still be invited for plenty of other reasons (on top of still having the best Refresh.)
#69 Sep 15 2010 at 11:28 AM Rating: Good
Avatar
****
4,416 posts
ShadowedgeFFXI wrote:
A lot of RDM's think /dnc is the answer as a default choice yet they feign ignorance when they learn that the healing waltz erase move doesn't work on everything... IE BRD songs.


Not that I actually care about this discussion anymore (SE will do what SE will do, and I personally don't expect them to live up to what they said about promoting RDM melee, plus they killed my RDM tank, which is unforgivable), but since Colibri stopped being the merit target-of-choice, what mobs do you have to actually worry about BRD songs on? We don't merit on Sahagin or Yagudo...

Anyway, carry on with the endless debate.

Edit: But I will say this: "***** you" to all the people who want to limit RDM to no native AoE spells/abilities "for thematic reasons", but don't want the job to ever be improved to actually be consistent with its theme.

Edited, Sep 15th 2010 11:44am by Aliekber
____________________________
Aliekber
RDM BLU SCH DRG PLD BLM NIN WHM
Linkshell: CrimsonMercenaries Server: Carbamesh

Sandinmygum the Stupendous wrote:
Human (?) females look ugly.
Post in /K/ where the orbital laser system is now online.
#70 Sep 15 2010 at 11:57 AM Rating: Good
Scholar
****
4,589 posts
Quote:
You're missing part of the picture Zafire which I already explained. You credit RDM en-spell damage, but you conveniently forget to include the attributed bonus from songs to melee. That's the reason why the BRD is there in the first place and yet you missed it. Don't say it's obvious when you didn't even credit BRD for that damage contributed via buffs. RDM hybrids can't stack haste on top of other forms of haste like BRD can. Animated wail, Hastega, WHM haste etc. Comparing melee skills of RDM and BRD without accounting for all factors defeats the point of comparing altogether. By the way, most BRD's have a huge advantage in the leg department too. Kitty pants trump anything RDM can buy off the AH easily. You have to augment legs to 3% haste/7ACC just to come close.

By the way, BRD/rdm not be ideal, but Fencer does return 40% TP off every WS plus the crit damage. I personally don't think BRD should be subbing mage in the first place in a melee role, but they have more options than us. A lot of RDM's think /dnc is the answer as a default choice yet they feign ignorance when they learn that the healing waltz erase move doesn't work on everything... IE BRD songs.

On a closing thought, I'm noticing just how some RDM's are trying to put battle BRD's in a terrible light without knowing most of the facts. That kind of bias makes me wonder if someone that close-minded deserves to melee in the first place.


Of course a BRD add's more to the melee's than a RDM does. That has nothing to do with a BRD meleeing and a RDM meleeing. A BRD doesn't have to melee to add support to a party and neither does a RDM. (Unless Box Step is concerned, of course.) The debate was a BRD taking his daggers out and a RDM taking his swords out. Nothing more or less. It's not talking about who add's more damage to a party. If you have a BRD in a party you're most likely going to have to have a main healer and someone to haste them all too. I was simply comparing a BRD and a RDM in the same party with the same buffs meleeing the same thing. If you want to compare solo damage my RDM would beat the **** out of a lot of DD's for a variety of reasons (Self-haste, enspells, dual wield benefits).

I think you got Fencer wrong. It doesn't return 40% tp it add's a 40% TP bonus to the weaponskill. Martial weapons for example add a 100% TP bonus. A BRD using Evisceration would WS at 100%TP like he had 140% tp, for example. Or could get a 300% Spirit's Within at 260%tp, etc.

I understand that BRD does get more haste gear and can cap haste gear very easily while we're stuck at 22% without rich people items. I understand Mordant Rime is better than Death Blossom. I understand BRD does get some better melee gear than we do. You're missing the point. RDM hits harder when it does swing, we get a higher DMG weapon than BRD does dagger, we can reap sh*t out of multi-hit weapons like the OAT2-3 Khanda because of enspells, and we have 24 more accuracy and ten more attack by default. A BRD would have to be using a pretty good OAT weapon to surpass my TP gain (And BRD has C- in sword so Joyeuse is kind of meh), and even if they were using that OAT2-3 dagger they'd be hitting like a little girl because they have nothing to tack on to their melee swings like we do. (Enspells.)

What i'm saying is RDM has it's advantages and so does BRD, when I look into it deeper i'm not really sure which one would actually do more damage, granted the same buffs were present.

Edited, Sep 15th 2010 2:13pm by Zafire
____________________________
Hume male, Zafire, Server: Sylph
50DNC, 50SMN, 50BRD, 50SAM, 50DRG, 50WHM, 52THF, 52COR, 52MNK, 58BST, 60WAR, 67PLD, 69PUP, 75RNG, 75SCH, 75BLM, 80NIN, 80DRK, 85BLU, 85RDM
Retired since February 2011.
All SJ's capped for LVL99!

#71 Sep 15 2010 at 12:06 PM Rating: Good
Should note: If Brd is casting Marches on himself to maintain highest haste possible, then he's not using other songs on himself to increase his attack and accuracy. He has to choose between them just as RDM will have to choose which Gain Spell and Enspell to use. Though, RDM really doesn't have a limit on "Total Buffs" he can place on himself. Only a few (Haste, Enspell, Gain Spell) Will effect his melee performance directly. Though others (Dia II, Graivty.) will effect it indirectly.

Comparing those two's combat styles is a mixed bag. Though honestly I'd like to see more melee enthusiasts among some of the support classes. The game is beginning to lean its way towards encouraging them. And as the game is melee-centric it'd be nice to see these jobs take advantage of that fact.
#72 Sep 15 2010 at 3:52 PM Rating: Excellent
**
654 posts
Zafire wrote:
You're missing the point. RDM hits harder when it does swing, we get a higher DMG weapon than BRD does dagger


At the same time though, Trial of the Magian daggers tend to have the highest DPS of all the weapons

Zafire wrote:

I think you got Fencer wrong. It doesn't return 40% tp it add's a 40% TP bonus to the weaponskill. Martial weapons for example add a 100% TP bonus. A BRD using Evisceration would WS at 100%TP like he had 140% tp, for example. Or could get a 300% Spirit's Within at 260%tp, etc.


When we get the ability to use fencer (/war or not) I want to experiment with the martial Anelace and Savage Blade. Popping 300% TP Savages at 160% sounds silly. Even just 240% at the normal 100% could work well. Not saying that it will replace anything we currently use but it could be worth it just for the lulz.
#73ShadowedgeFFXI, Posted: Sep 15 2010 at 4:17 PM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) Well I only said that BRD songs were one example. There are many other spells that can only be removed via /whm or /sch sub. Oh, and since you asked, Dynamis is one place where RDM's in this thread wish to melee where BRD songs could be used on them. I know I've been Elegy many times on my jobs in there.
#74ShadowedgeFFXI, Posted: Sep 15 2010 at 4:30 PM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) Are you referring to individual damage again? If so, see above. I'd give the edge to RDM though if individual numbers are all that's at stake.
#75 Sep 15 2010 at 4:31 PM Rating: Excellent
Avatar
****
4,416 posts
ShadowedgeFFXI wrote:
Well I only said that BRD songs were one example. There are many other spells that can only be removed via /whm or /sch sub. Oh, and since you asked, Dynamis is one place where RDM's in this thread wish to melee where BRD songs could be used on them. I know I've been Elegy many times on my jobs in there.


Unless you have RDMs going /WHM in your Dynamis normally (I think most full-alliance and lowman groups use RDM/BLMs, or maybe RDM/SCHs), it's really more of an issue of not having Sleepga than not having the full complement of /WHM's -na spells, but I guess you do have a point for that one if a given Dynamis shell uses exclusively/mainly RDM/WHM healers.

ShadowedgeFFXI wrote:
This isn't an endless debate any longer if all the pro-melee agree with Hyrist and his **** poor perception of RDM hybrid dynamics.


What do you want melee RDMs to want then? To melee HNM? You're opposed to that, but you want them to want it so you can knock them down like strawmen? Not trying to be hostile, but you really have me confused as to your stance on this.

Hyrist's issue is, and as far as I know always has been, that people lose it if you pull out a sword against a VT mob, something we're already equipped to deal with via melee.
____________________________
Aliekber
RDM BLU SCH DRG PLD BLM NIN WHM
Linkshell: CrimsonMercenaries Server: Carbamesh

Sandinmygum the Stupendous wrote:
Human (?) females look ugly.
Post in /K/ where the orbital laser system is now online.
#76ShadowedgeFFXI, Posted: Sep 15 2010 at 5:04 PM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) On a personal level, I really don't want to see RDM improved by S-E on the front-lines. All that would do is step on DNC's and BLU's toes. I'm almost certain that's why S-E purposely left RDM off the hybrid gear. There was no excuse at all to have RDM not on the Aurore gear tag other than S-E is scared RDM's will wreck the balance of the hybrids already there. Hyrist and others like him are meleeing for kicks which is pointless to me. Saevell just posted a Dynamis parse where most of them were afk. :P I don't know what he was thinking to actually post that. If anything, Saevell hurt the credibility of RDM melee, not helped it. Any job can parse well if others are slacking. I have a SMN friend(think Mellow, only 100 times better) that would constantly parse higher than some 2-handed jobs including his Avatar damage of course. It's kinda obvious why he beat them and he wasn't arrogant about it.
#77 Sep 15 2010 at 5:29 PM Rating: Excellent
Quote:
This isn't an endless debate any longer if all the pro-melee agree with Hyrist and his **** poor perception of RDM hybrid dynamics.
"**** Poor"

What do you want to do, Melee PW? Even that's unrealistic. The only one here who has a ****-poor perception of RDM has been you, and that hasn't changed in years.

You CONSTANTLY flip-flop between opinions on RDM and its melee aspect. At least I can be credited for being consistant.

Take a stance and stick to it before you start critisizing other people's viewpoints. RDM's frontline performance dosen't suck when it's used in the contexts I've described. Essentially anything you can put your dagger-weilders on you can put a RDM on provides the situation doesn't specifcally calls for RDM to be out of Melee Range for some reason.

I do think at times people treat certain NMs with way too much safety involved. (If a DNC can step it, why cant I go in for a Death Blossom?) But that's the way it currently stands, and it's not a huge issue, given how much utility we have elsewise.

Aliekber hit the nail on the head when it came to what my issue with frontline RDM is. VT mobs, cannon fodder, should be fair game. This includes the weaker bits of WoE mobs, as well as Abyssea mobs (We get status boosts to make up for the increasing difficulty of those.)

The "Eternal Debate" should have been over years ago. My current issue with is we now have fallen behind pretty hard in gear support. That problem could be fixed by giving us more spell/ability support (More than Gain STR, I'm counting that already as it's inevitable) or better overall TP gear.

So long as the populace gets accustomed to the idea that "VT is ok." I'm fairly satasfied with our melee set up. If you want to try to push for more go right ahead. I'm still in support of pushing the envelope, but really it's still going to boil down to "Is it ok for people to TP on this?" as a ruling factor. I'm ok with having the same threshold as say a THF or DNC, when it comes to that.

And we don't HAVE to agree, or push people into "Shadow's camp" or "Hyrist's camp" everyone has varying tolerances as far as how far our melee can go, and that's perfectly fine.

To be honest I was tempted not to post in this thread at all because I initially thought it was borderline trolling. We're really not suffering from that much of an idenity crisis as much as an oppertunity to re-craft certain aspects of our job idenity; to obtain more. I've given my idea for that in the form of Aura spells (working like Avatar's favor.) and I'm pretty much running dry on other ideas besides the bread and butter "Moar damage." methods. We have a HUGE assortment of tools at our disposal, and I don't see the point in snuffing our nose up up at it just because they're not dependant on being in the front lines. I like that level of variability, and we already have mele dependant tools (Enspells, Spikes, Death Blossom.)

There was an idea in which we could use melee to enhance the potency/duration of enfeebles, but Saboteur kinda took that one right out from under us.

So what next? I'm open to the ideas but I'm also not blind to the realities.


So the important questions, Shadow, is:

What role do YOU want RDM to take?
How far do YOU want RDM melee to be effective?
How would YOU impliment the changes to make that feasible?

Right now, I've never been more satasfied with RDM's utility. Do I want more? Yes. But I'm not panicked at what RDM is, and honestly, I coulden't care less on how certain people view the job from the outside.

Actually, scratch that, I do care enough to be sick of all of this BS surrounding ignorant jackasses that tell people how to play without even a basic understanding of the job they critisize. Most the time how they view mage jobs are often incorrect. (I moved off Midgardsormr with my Fiancee because we hated how her WHM was being discriminated against.)

The players and how they act are probably my biggest problem with FFXI and other MMOs.

So you'll have to pardon me if I'm a bit agressive against the 'appease the other's' approach you're trying to protray. Most the time it will not go appreciated at all, and they don't even understand what RDM is capable of now. (Dosen't help that we're misrepresented by our own brand of morons.)

We can talk about what we can do to further advance it's melee aspect, or how we want to 'further define' the job till the cows come home. But I beleive ignorance is the bigger problem for the majority of this game, on far more than just RDM, when it comes to what classes are capable of, and how to utalize them.

I've spent years with off-the-beaten path job combinations, players, playstyle methods, and it's funny how after all this time I still hear the same old complaints that were disproven years ago.


So I guess the bigger question is, how do we correct the common misconception of our class?


Edited, Sep 15th 2010 7:35pm by Hyrist
#78 Sep 15 2010 at 5:30 PM Rating: Good
***
1,624 posts
Quote:
On a personal level, I really don't want to see RDM improved by S-E on the front-lines. All that would do is step on DNC's and BLU's toes.


Aaannnd...Scholar doesn't step on ours?

Quote:
What do you want to do, Melee Gods? Even that's unrealistic.


Not anymore it isn't.

Edited, Sep 15th 2010 6:30pm by Deedlitchan
____________________________
Deedlitchan-Bismark server
Female Elvaan 90 rdm/(drk, pld, war, blu, dnc)
75 drg/(rdm, blu, war, sam, drk, pld)
90 drk/(sam, blu, rdm, war, dnc)
San d'Oria-Rank 10
#79 Sep 15 2010 at 5:31 PM Rating: Excellent
One flew over the cuckoo's nest
Avatar
******
29,185 posts
Deedlitchan wrote:
Quote:
On a personal level, I really don't want to see RDM improved by S-E on the front-lines. All that would do is step on DNC's and BLU's toes.
Aaannnd...Scholar doesn't step on ours?
This. There are 20 @#%^ing jobs. How could they possibly not step on each others' toes? Pretty much everything other than whm, blm, rng, war, pld, thf/nin, and maybe rdm is redundant.

Edited, Sep 15th 2010 7:35pm by ThePsychoticOne
____________________________
BANNED

Creator and Leader of the Anti-Rog faction
#80 Sep 15 2010 at 5:36 PM Rating: Good
***
2,890 posts
Shadow doesn't want any RDM to melee, he wants us to go play BLU. He has said as much in every argument used to date. Everyone one of his arguements eventually goes to "go play this other guy because it can do it better then you". We've learned to promptly ignore him once he starts down this road.
____________________________
RoTZ: Complete DM: O
CoP: Complete AN: O
99 SAM, RDM, BLU, WAR, PLD, DRK

lolgaxe wrote:
Nothing in this game is impossible if you set yourself to the task of actually doing it. Even dumb people can only hold you back for so long.


Lucinus wrote:
when you're hefting something that deadly, you don't miss - mobs get the **** out of the way instead...
#81 Sep 15 2010 at 5:38 PM Rating: Good
Worse, some of the aspects he beleives are stepping on other players toes STACK!

How can you say we step on a DNC's toes when there are 4 types of steps and only 1 15 second timer per dancer or /dnc? Is RDM pushing Box Step/Dia III going to ruin DNC's oppertunity to use Feather Step or Quick Step more, no!

Frightful Roar STACKS with Dia III STACKS with Box Step, it only competes with other Defence Down abilities that Red Mage wont even have access to unless he's maining the Defence Down sword!

This is the DUMBEST argument possible in event contexts unless you are **** right restricted to a specific number of people.



And again, he proves me right by flopping. First he calls my concept of RDM frontlining **** poor, then says personally he'd rather me stick to that "**** Poor" concept.

He MUST be trolling.

Edited, Sep 15th 2010 7:40pm by Hyrist
#82 Sep 15 2010 at 5:41 PM Rating: Excellent
One flew over the cuckoo's nest
Avatar
******
29,185 posts
Yeah, honestly i don't understand how anyone can argue against rdms meleeing. There's no real downside, especially now with 17-19/tic refresh fairly easily attainable, so ballad/evoker's is pointless. You certainly won't out dd a war, but **** it's free damage. Even meleeing with a joyeuse and no dd gear at all is worth while. There's really no reason not to melee, except possibly on hnm.

And as i've said in the past, this is coming from a backline only rdm. I don't melee anything, except once in a blue moon while soloing easy ****. My only dd gear is a haste set and suppa, brutal, amemet+1, chiv chain, and rajas, all of which is from war, and i almost never even anything of it except haste, rajas, and suppa with me anyway. I may not care to melee, but i at least know i'm gimping it up by not doing so.
____________________________
BANNED

Creator and Leader of the Anti-Rog faction
#83 Sep 15 2010 at 5:53 PM Rating: Good
Quote:
Yeah, honestly i don't understand how anyone can argue against rdms meleeing. There's no real downside, especially now with 17-19/tic refresh fairly easily attainable, so ballad/evoker's is pointless. You certainly won't out dd a war, but **** it's free damage. Even meleeing with a joyeuse and no dd gear at all is worth while. There's really no reason not to melee, except possibly on hnm.

And as i've said in the past, this is coming from a backline only rdm. I don't melee anything, except once in a blue moon while soloing easy sh*t. My only dd gear is a haste set and suppa, brutal, amemet+1, chiv chain, and rajas, all of which is from war, and i almost never even anything of it except haste, rajas, and suppa with me anyway. I may not care to melee, but i at least know i'm gimping it up by not doing so.





It's primarily hobby to me. It just so happens that my hobby becomes the majority of my game because of my erratic playtimes.

I know I'm being lazy when I back line, even when I'm doing all the other tasks a RDM normally does, because I know I can manage the front lines while doing it. (Sadly, I actually perform BETTER in the front lines because I'm more interested, and therefore, more attentive.)

Somehow the old 2005 arguments still permiate the crowd mentaility. We're no longer in an age of "Must have X build to win." ****, most the CURRENT situations now have multiple solutions to them. HNMs being being an exception.
But I understand also when people want to play it safe, keep certain key abilities out of AoE ranges or keeping a better eye out for links. (Though I do just fine with links even behind me in melee range.) So if they're uncofortable, I step in the back line.

The main reason I became the 'White Knight for RDM Melee' is I coulden't tolerate the ignorance surrounding the subject. Oh, and I hated main healing parties back in the ToAU era because of what it did to my girl's WHM.
#84 Sep 15 2010 at 5:54 PM Rating: Decent
Scholar
****
4,589 posts
Quote:
I still don't think you're getting it. Let me try again and see if I can pound it though. Stop looking at individual numbers and look at number totals. If you combine RDM melee + en-spells+ Dia III, that might be your total. It doesn't matter if RDM smokes a BRD in DoT/overall damage if a BRD buffs others to offset that, that's the part you need to remember. A good COR contributes more damage than RNG, but it's obviously not from their weapon damage numbers alone. The payoff is the buff to others in which they excel past the RNG's thus theoretically making them a better DD by default. I'm not going to debate RDM vs BRD melee Dot/WS output only, it's plain retarded to do that. You NEED to look at whole numbers, not fractions Zafire.


I get what you're saying, I disagree that you should look at it that way. By what you're saying RNG is a worthless job because COR can add more damage to the party. By what you're saying BRD is the best DD in the game because 20% haste add's up to 50-80%+ more damage. You're not going to have a party with all BRD's though.

I'm talking about melee potential, not "How much damage can we help generate." Meleeing has absolutely nothing to do with that. You can wear absolutely nothing and get the same results. Dia III and haste have nothing to do with gear. A BRD can increase party damage as can a RDM. I'm not comparing that and that's a completely different debate. When comparing melee damage, you should always compare things similarly.

If you want to compare melee damage you need to compare similar situations. Like BRD and 5 melee's wouldn't have haste, and in order to have haste, they'd need the BRD to be /whm. And if the BRD was /whm, his melee would suck. He'd increase everyones overall haste by 15%, but his melee damage would suffer. Unless, of course, you stuck someone like a WHM, or RDM, or someone else with /WHM, in which the BRD could dual wield. Then you're not comparing melee damage anymore, you're comparing situations. And you're saying BRD/WHM is a better DD than BRD/NIN or BRD/DNC because it adds more to the party. But BRD/WHM wont do more melee damage than BRD/NIN|DNC. lol.

Quote:
I'm not going to debate RDM vs BRD melee Dot/WS output only, it's plain retarded to do that.


No it's retarded to do it your way, because you're saying BRD has more of a right to melee than RDM because it can increase the party's damage more. You need to compare accessible buff's, or what it'd be like if a RDM and a BRD were duoing, in order to get a feel for who actually would contribute more in the *FRONT* lines.

Edited, Sep 15th 2010 7:55pm by Zafire

Edited, Sep 15th 2010 7:58pm by Zafire
____________________________
Hume male, Zafire, Server: Sylph
50DNC, 50SMN, 50BRD, 50SAM, 50DRG, 50WHM, 52THF, 52COR, 52MNK, 58BST, 60WAR, 67PLD, 69PUP, 75RNG, 75SCH, 75BLM, 80NIN, 80DRK, 85BLU, 85RDM
Retired since February 2011.
All SJ's capped for LVL99!

#85 Sep 15 2010 at 6:28 PM Rating: Decent
Jack of All Trades
******
29,217 posts
Quote:
Yeah, honestly i don't understand how anyone can argue against rdms meleeing


The argument most often made is that RDMs who are meleeing are usually the type that will tend to slack on the things that the RDM was invited for in the first place. Unfortunately, despite the fact that I'm sure there are RDM meleers who actually stay on top of this stuff, the stigma is not without merit. All too often have I seen RDM meleers doing things like Refreshing only themselves, letting Hastes drop for long enough to be significant, completely not noticing the link on the pull that strayed from the puller and started to nom on the resting WHM, etc. An overall observation of every single RDM I've observed in a standard party shows that a greater ratio of RDMs who melee will slack on their duties than those who do not.

Is it possible that these people would be slackers even if they weren't meleeing? Certainly. But people just do not want to take that chance and possibly place that extra straw on the (possibly good) RDM camel that ends up breaking its back, particularly when you consider this fact -- if leaders wanted more DD, RDM isn't what they would be looking for in the first place.

The best thing you can do as RDM melee, if you insist on sticking to your guns, is to prove these people wrong. Show that you can stay on top of everything while still meleeing, and even if the general populace still doesn't fully accept you, you'll at least come to be accepted by the people you regularly group with. Additionally, always remember that depending on situation, there are things you just should not be meleeing. Learn to recognize these. Stubbornly insisting on meleeing EVERYTHING in EVERY situation is a good way to earn scorn for your RDM.
#86 Sep 15 2010 at 6:31 PM Rating: Excellent
One flew over the cuckoo's nest
Avatar
******
29,185 posts
Fynlar wrote:
Quote:
Yeah, honestly i don't understand how anyone can argue against rdms meleeing


The argument most often made is that RDMs who are meleeing are usually the type that will tend to slack on the things that the RDM was invited for in the first place. Unfortunately, despite the fact that I'm sure there are RDM meleers who actually stay on top of this stuff, the stigma is not without merit. All too often have I seen RDM meleers doing things like Refreshing only themselves, letting Hastes drop for long enough to be significant, completely not noticing the link on the pull that strayed from the puller and started to nom on the resting WHM, etc. An overall observation of every single RDM I've observed in a standard party shows that a greater ratio of RDMs who melee will slack on their duties than those who do not.
That's an argument against retards, not melee.
Quote:
and possibly place that extra straw on the (possibly good) RDM camel that ends up breaking its back, particularly when you consider this fact -- if leaders wanted more DD, RDM isn't what they would be looking for in the first place.
Uh, what? Obviously no one invites rdm to dd. That would be retarded. You invite a rdm to haste, cure, dia, etc. And then while they aren't doing such things, they engage, since attacking is more useful than standing around doing nothing. That's not an argument against rdms meleeing, it's an argument against rdms being a dd job, which no one contests.
____________________________
BANNED

Creator and Leader of the Anti-Rog faction
#87 Sep 15 2010 at 6:41 PM Rating: Excellent
Silent But Deadly
*****
19,999 posts
Ranzera wrote:
We fill any hole that needs to be filled.
Am I the only one who's willing to comment on the inurendo here?
____________________________
SUPER BANNED FOR FAILING TO POST 20K IN A TIMELY MANNER
#88 Sep 15 2010 at 6:51 PM Rating: Decent
Jack of All Trades
******
29,217 posts
Quote:
That's an argument against retards, not melee.


There are many people who can handle RDM duties just fine but will start to slack on them if they try to melee. Argue all you like that it shouldn't be that way; the fact is that it IS. Some people just aren't as good at multitasking as others; I hardly think that qualifies them as retards.

What IS retarded is insisting on meleeing when it's messing up the things you're supposed to be doing. Many RDMs are guilty of this and simply refuse to accept it. It's gotten to the point where people aren't even willing to take that chance anymore.

Quote:
And then while they aren't doing such things, they engage, since attacking is more useful than standing around doing nothing.


In many cases, I've found that if they don't need to be doing any "such things", they help pull. Because usually it means that the party is breezing through and can handle a little more of a challenge. But eh, YMMV.

Edited, Sep 15th 2010 8:52pm by Fynlar
#89ShadowedgeFFXI, Posted: Sep 15 2010 at 7:02 PM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) I've also said numerous times that a BRD has less to do and therefore should be meleeing. Besides 3-4 songs which can be merited for duration, what else is BRD doing in these situations. Well most of the time they are either A) pulling or B) curing with their gimping mp pool. I suppose I could count Elegy too, but that's about it. The way you're adding up the damage is stupid. It's like those jerks who forget to count magic damage like en-spells or pet damage on a parse. COR and BRD buffs are the same **** thing as en-spells only it's proportioned elsewhere. You cannot count BRD's damage without their buffs on party members and call it a fair parse, that's retarded. Why would you compare what BRD and RDM would do as a duo? The BRD's buffs wouldn't have nearly the same effect measured that way. The RDM would easily win unless they were taking too much damage from tanking. We know RDM is a better DD over BRD. C'mon Rog, chime in and be helpful. Explain the math to Zafire.
#90 Sep 15 2010 at 7:13 PM Rating: Good
Quote:
There are many people who can handle RDM duties just fine but will start to slack on them if they try to melee. Argue all you like that it shouldn't be that way; the fact is that it IS. Some people just aren't as good at multitasking as others; I hardly think that qualifies them as retards.

What IS retarded is insisting on meleeing when it's messing up the things you're supposed to be doing. Many RDMs are guilty of this and simply refuse to accept it. It's gotten to the point where people aren't even willing to take that chance anymore.


There's also the issue of what a party expects between what a party needs.

Even backline, I'll not haste a MP sink. It's just not worth spending that much MP on that person. But if I'm in front-line, suddenly that logic becomes a problem, because then I'm much more obvious a target for criticism.

There's also the issue of double-support, and other people being lazy. WHM + RDM in the party should mean split haste cycle, but it most often doesn't, even though I'm splitting the curing load with them (and often providing refresh.)

I find it ironic how Shadow preaches about the 'delicate balance of hybrids' when I actually have the best time with BLUs. My Dia helps them more, they have this nasty independent streak when it comes to hasting and refreshing themselves (which makes my job easier.) And I've no qualms about stacking spells with them (or even things like avoiding their self SC, or giving them an opportunity for stronger Skillchaings by tacking mine on at the start.)

Same thing with dancers. Hybrids happen to be my favorite, and most frequent companions.

There once was, in merit parties, an argument about "Worth the Party Slot" (which got debunked) that still retains as a stupid excuse not to let front line RDMs in groups. Hilariously enough both the reality of it (you're not always going to have optimum set up) and the change in exp/merit dynamics rendered this argument completely mute.

If there were one thing, just one thing I could do to RDM to make my front-line time easier, it would be Hastega. A single spell to eliminate the repetitive casting that chokes our time doing anything else. More than not my problems with curing or enfeebling usually comes when a moment of conflict occurs between casting my intended spell, and replenishing someone's haste. Given Accession, Corsair Rolls, and BRD's songs all AoE things, at this point I wouldn't view it as unrealistic. But if SE MUST keep us to single targets, I'd settle for Haste lasting five minutes.

Other than scaling our Melee side properly, that's my only major request.
#91ShadowedgeFFXI, Posted: Sep 15 2010 at 7:16 PM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) Come on over to my server and Haste/Refresh II me Hyrist. I'll be delighted to drop those 2 spells off my set list. The reason why most BLU's tend to set them is because most RDM's are lazy. I'd say 10% of all RDM's are able to keep up the basics. Of that 10%, how many do you feel could handle extra duties like front-lining?
#92ShadowedgeFFXI, Posted: Sep 15 2010 at 7:45 PM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) The tone of the thread is becoming to hostile. So in the effort to lighten it up, I was thinking about the historical reference of RDM earlier. Ironically as the first 6 jobs are the same exact 6 jobs of the first FF game. I was wondering how I would rate RDM from the past compared to the present. Here's what I came up with so far.
#93 Sep 15 2010 at 7:56 PM Rating: Excellent
***
1,018 posts
Anyone remember how excited Shadowedge was about 3x buffs from Composure's debut?

And does anyone remember how ******** crazy LIVID he got when he found out about the +15 accuracy it also gives?

Good times.
____________________________
--------- Xenith ---------
----------------------------
RDM /
*videos*
#94 Sep 15 2010 at 8:23 PM Rating: Excellent
***
1,018 posts
Quote:
If your Dynamis leader ever says come on whatever you feel like tonight, that translates to nothing you do matters because the status quo slots are filled

You're lacking logic.

WAR: Should I bring my WS gear to this dynamis run?
Leader: Our DD status quos are covered, don't bother.
WHM: Could I come naked?
Leader: Yea we have enough healing.
PLD: Then I'm coming naked too.
Leader: We'll live.


A RDM (melee'n or not) can make everything operate smoother overall. Yea you might not need him/her, but... if you're the kind of person that enjoys more-fruitful fruitfuller farming, less downtime, and less freak-deaths... inviting a RDM isn't a bad idea.

A non-melee RDM would be a lotta help (in this dynamis situation, and most other situations).
A melee RDM would be the same thing, except with a bit more "oompf", in overall smooth-operability.

In before Rog rightfully points out my inability to argue semantics...

-EDIT-
WHAAAAT? "Fruitfuller" is a word!

Edited, Sep 15th 2010 11:22pm by IcookPizza
____________________________
--------- Xenith ---------
----------------------------
RDM /
*videos*
#95 Sep 15 2010 at 8:30 PM Rating: Excellent
One flew over the cuckoo's nest
Avatar
******
29,185 posts
IcookPizza wrote:
In before Rog rightfully points out my inability to argue semantics...
Nah, that's fine.
____________________________
BANNED

Creator and Leader of the Anti-Rog faction
#96 Sep 15 2010 at 9:12 PM Rating: Excellent
***
1,018 posts
Quote:
Everything is riding on us to stun properly especially on fights like Dynamis Lord. If we mess up, we cost everyone in attendance the run. Now that's a purpose that means something.
Yea backlining is pretty important for those 30 seconds.

Editing that quote to make another crucial point:
Quote:
Everything is riding on kraken-DRKs to gear swap properly, especially after fights like Dynamis Lord. If they mess up, their DPS is gonna be, like, so low for 1 hour, 59 mins, and 30 seconds. Now that's a purpose that means something.
Now that's a purpose that means something.

Edited, Sep 16th 2010 3:29pm by IcookPizza
____________________________
--------- Xenith ---------
----------------------------
RDM /
*videos*
#97 Sep 15 2010 at 9:21 PM Rating: Excellent
*
122 posts
I don't know what's going on in this thread anymore. I decided to re-read the OP to maybe find where this chaos stemmed from.

ShadowedgeFFXI wrote:
I'm a bit perplexed as to what our role as RDM will be defined by the masses. Refresh II looked good on paper, but then I began to compare other combos. WHM/rdm, BRD/RDM, SMN/cor, COR/rdm, SCH/rdm, and so forth. I'm not so sure RDM will be known as the Refresh ***** any longer.


That's a good thing.

Quote:
I can't foresee RDM becoming a front-line job either though despite the push for it by some forum posters. Saboteur and Addle were really nice additions, but it's still not enough to warrant an enfeebling slot by itself. By that I mean nobody is going to say, "Hey RDM, come here and be our enfeeble guru".


Playerbase stigma. People don't say "oh hey, this guy has Dia 3! No wonder my Gekkos were doing so much."

Nah all we hear are "Woot {Tachi: Gekko} 2145!!!" "lol gratz"

Enfeebling is a thankless job, especially since the sh*t that really matters half the time gets resisted.

Quote:
The jack of all magic jobs


You almost had it there. You appear to have tacked on an extra word for some reason.

Continuing on that same quote..

Quote:
The jack of all magic jobs was kinda our niche until SCH came out. Now where do we go as RDM. We can nuke, but BLM and SCH do it better. We can heal, but WHM easily surpasses us. Nobody will discount that RDM is the best enfeebler, but we don't have enough RDM exclusive tools to excel in that category either. If SCH and BLM can hang with us in terms of link control, what purpose do we serve?


I don't think you understand what "Jack of all trades, master of none" means.

Quote:
I think what I enjoyed most about RDM over the years was the utility. We could kite, tank, heal, nuke, enfeeble, control links, and even melee if required. Now some of that thunder has been lost and it's not that I'm jealous of other jobs receiving our abilities as I am with RDM losing our purpose. I suppose some people would say RDM was known as the "Refresher" class for a long time. I must admit, that term always bothered me. I always thought of myself as t6he guy who does a bit of everything. Now it's becoming impossible to find that old purpose or even reinvent a new purpose at least to me. I know a good majority of the vocal posters on the forums like to go against the grain and maybe that would help. As it stands, I've lost my interest in RDM and it's no surprise so many of us solo or pursue our self indulgent whims. Thanks for reading.



My brain is full of @#%^.jpg

No, seriously, I don't know what to think anymore. You say this with sincerity only to turn around and make up bullsh*t about why we can't do a simple task like melee.

There is no balance of hybrids.

Taking advantage of every tool available to you is not self-indulgance.

I was going to refrain from any form of attack since you seem like a reasonable man but the more I read your posts the more I find that you're nothing but a hypocrit. You're probably just going to turn around and say I'm nit-picking your posts. If you could make up your **** mind about what you want we wouldn't be having this problem, now would we?

Edited, Sep 15th 2010 11:23pm by StylinOfGilgamesh
____________________________
Quote:
Can't sleep, PUPs will eat me.
#98 Sep 15 2010 at 9:36 PM Rating: Excellent
Avatar
***
1,567 posts
Hyrist, ****** Superhero wrote:
So I guess the bigger question is, how do we correct the common misconception of our class?
To me, from the ground up. And by that I mean the leveling process. The changes need to be seen as people level up so that they have an idea of what to expect from RDM. Right now what they see is refresh+haste bot, so it isn't surprising to see them expect more of that from us in the later levels.

I speak from first-hand experience, as my RDM is still lv62 (yes, shame on me for entering this discussion without being lv85 with capped merits). The only way I can get a party is if I resign myself to R&H bot or cure bot. It bores me to tears, to be honest. Gear support for melee isn't that great until you can actually wear Walahra turban and the other neat stuff like dusk (unless you have money to blow on PCC). And again, healing, refresh and haste have no stat penalties, so mechanics-wise it's a lot easier to level naked while just spamming those three spells than it is being geared and ready for melee (greater demand for healers and MP batteries don't help). People still kill ITs before the 70s, so we also have that against us as well.

I speak only for myself in this, but we'd need to see some changes in order for the misconception to begin to dissapear. Composure at lv50 and /war or /dnc at 90 is not enough, in my opinion.
____________________________
Products of boredom: 1 2 3 4 5
Besieged
Hopes for FFXIV: Fencer | Red Mage
#99 Sep 15 2010 at 10:17 PM Rating: Good
Sage
***
2,026 posts
Quote:
I was going to refrain from any form of attack since you seem like a reasonable man but the more I read your posts the more I find that you're nothing but a hypocrit. You're probably just going to turn around and say I'm nit-picking your posts. If you could make up your **** mind about what you want we wouldn't be having this problem, now would we?


I could've said just as much about the original post, the more I read it. And I have to ask the question to ShadowedgefFXI. What was your purpose in making this post and what was the response you expected to get?

Did you:
1) Know fully well that it will eventually turn into a discussion about RDM melee? Because that is the direction so many posts of its kind seem to go in. It is telling that we got Gain-MND and are going to get Gain-INT. And the ones that people are excited about is Gain-STR. Not that I personally mind getting Gain-INT as much as I want Gain-STR; I would like to make sure I'm ready for any opportunity to do things on RDM, even nuking...excuse me..."wasting MP on random nukes" as some would like to call it.

or did you

2) Seriously expect people to raise their hands in outrage that BLM got Break, NIN got Aisha, even though we're supposed to be the Masters of Enfeebling? Let's suppose for a second SE truly came out and said, "No, we never intended for RDMs to frontline. We wanted it to be a debuffer exclusively." Can we finally get our pitchforks and demand that SE give us Break, Aisha, elemental debuffs, elemental resistance reduction that doesn't require us to be in the frontline, magic evasion reduction that doesn't require us to be in the frontline, Flash, Stun, a light based sleep and dispel, Terrorize, and Amnesia? My suspicion is some of the other jobs would counter our pitchforks with shotguns and say "No, you already have enough. You can heal. You can nuke..." and I suspect some might even say "...you could even melee if you put your mind to it. Now get off my lawn!"

If we're about to be in role limbo as you're original post seems to ask, I think we have a legitimate case here to start asking for these things. Who's with me? Let's go flood the feedback forum.

Quote:
Playerbase stigma. People don't say "oh hey, this guy has Dia 3! No wonder my Gekkos were doing so much."

Nah all we hear are "Woot {Tachi: Gekko} 2145!!!" "lol gratz"


What people in this game don't get, is that the mob died in 10 seconds because of everything that went into it, not just the one person who had 1337est, biggest, baddest WS. Worse, Dia III is something that is seen as optional because of its status as a merit spell, when in reality, it's just about the only thing we hold a monopoly on left in the EXP party setting.

Edited, Sep 16th 2010 1:31am by Ketaru
____________________________
李張明 85/ RDM BST SCH
#100 Sep 15 2010 at 10:26 PM Rating: Excellent
Quote:

Come on over to my server and Haste/Refresh II me Hyrist. I'll be delighted to drop those 2 spells off my set list. The reason why most BLU's tend to set them is because most RDM's are lazy. I'd say 10% of all RDM's are able to keep up the basics. Of that 10%, how many do you feel could handle extra duties like front-lining?


You play much differently than the BLU's I tend to go with. It literally is "Don't haste me, don't refresh me, I've got it covered." On my end.

As far as applying arbitrary numbers to circumstances, I'll you continue to play the fake number game. It's getting obvious that your game experience is vastly different than mine. So implying the concept of "What do you think the average" false on depth ears as I play and strives to be an exception among though, and have been encourage them to be.
#101 Sep 15 2010 at 10:30 PM Rating: Excellent
One flew over the cuckoo's nest
Avatar
******
29,185 posts
Quote:
Of that 10%, how many do you feel could handle extra duties like front-lining?
Font lining isn't an extra duty, it's just a change from hitting your idle macro after casting to hitting your dd macro instead. The only real change is having to cast enblizzard once every 9 minutes. Dding on rdm is the absolute lowest possible priority. You do everything else you'd normally do first, and then while idling you simple attack and keep your dd gear on, instead of sitting there with your thumb up your ***.
____________________________
BANNED

Creator and Leader of the Anti-Rog faction
Reply To Thread

Colors Smileys Quote OriginalQuote Checked Help

 

Recent Visitors: 15 All times are in CDT
Anonymous Guests (15)