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On the verge of quitting RDMFollow

#52 Jun 21 2010 at 3:53 PM Rating: Excellent
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Honestly, damage alone isn't what made MNK tanking decent. It's things like native Subtle Blow, Penance, (Perfect) Counter(stance), higher evasion, better gear, Guard, D50+ fist equivalents, WS that don't suck, Boost. And they're only gonna get meaner with better gear, higher H2H skill, and presumed things like more MA traits.

If NINs aren't DDing hard things to tank, what makes you think people will let RDMs? ****, it took Atonement to get PLDs away from Earth Staffs or just standing there with their shield because the WS wasn't limited to pitiful WS mods.
#53 Jun 21 2010 at 4:10 PM Rating: Good
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RealityBytes wrote:
I can tank on RDM, it's called doing damage.


RealityBytes wrote:
How is 10% (or 20% if you really want to push it with single wield+En2) of damage "significant"? Also, RDM can go toe-to-toe with any top tier DD on anything less than VT. Look at Campaign.

2) En- damage is going to go up. By about 10%. Takes 20 skill to raise 1 point of damage, and it increased by 4.6/level from 71-75 for B+ skill. Do the math, at most you are gaining 2 points (assuming SE fixed the 300 cap issue).


Wat?






No, seriously. Enspells are hate-free. Say it with me.

Enspells are hate-free.
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#54 Jun 21 2010 at 4:24 PM Rating: Good
Starfox is trying to say that the difference in damage isn't going to effect our hate much, because enspells really arn't that much of a damage contributor anyways, so it doesn't matter if they contribute hate or not.

I'm on the verge of quitting the game, honestly. They keep removing or nerfing things that would make RDM more enjoyable without really giving us a reason to look hopeful.

Some pieces of gear was nice, but really nothing horribly impressive and we got screwed in the weapons department.

I'm going to have to see how things pan out in the future before I make a decission. But if this update really hurt us and there's no real bright side to this worth caring about, SE just lost my subscription.
#55 Jun 21 2010 at 4:29 PM Rating: Excellent
Well I do admit, that if they drop the enmity of Dispel, I won't mind. In a situation where I'm actually NOT tanking, I can spam it all day long on those crazy million buff mobs, with less worry.
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#56Jajuzza, Posted: Jun 21 2010 at 5:05 PM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) Funny how you cry over something that only 1% of rdm's do.
#57 Jun 21 2010 at 7:05 PM Rating: Good
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It's annoying to think about how we will finally be able to buff Evisceration to potentially make it good.

Oh wait...too bad the best dagger Rdm is ever going to be able to use is the Blau as SE is never going to add Rdm to another dagger again D:

I mean already daggers are breaking into 40 Base Damage. It won't be long until the Blau is completely outmatched. I really wished SE would of at least let us on the Trial daggers.

(well all of this is excluding the Mandau obviously)
#58Jajuzza, Posted: Jun 21 2010 at 7:11 PM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) Wooo touchè, sub-default me is not making you smarter or better, just confirm my thoughts.
#59 Jun 21 2010 at 7:13 PM Rating: Good
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Jajuzza wrote:
Wooo touchè, sub-default me is not making you smarter or better, just confirm my thoughts.


No, sub-defaulting you means that no one agrees with your opinion because you are flat out wrong.
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#60 Jun 21 2010 at 7:15 PM Rating: Good
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Pending the results of this enmity nerf, this really will be a kick in the balls to anyone who tries to branch out and play outside of the box. The general population has been moving more and more into a mindset that you aren't tanking unless you are getting beat to a pulp with shiny white armor on(or purple for those stuck in 2005), while rarely needing to do anything but exist to hold hate. A friend of mine introduced me to RDM tanking long before it was "in", and before I was even 75RDM. While I can't say I was able to tank on RDM/NIN every single day, I can say that it was one of the most enjoyable aspects of the job I had done since day one of the NA release. I feel for anyone who did enjoy that part of RDM as much as I did. What really ****** me off is that while RDM was a very strong contender for tanking, why are SAM, DRK, and MNK being overlooked for jobs stepping on PLD's territory? Heavy DD being able to tank and DD is no different than RDM being able to tank and support. Rather than singling out RDM, try buffing PLD.

This was an update I had been waiting on for a long long time. Even once it was announced that we would be able to advance to 99, I got more enthusiastic about it...I mean who didn't, we needed a way to add more content for those of us who wouldn't/couldn't move on to FF14. I expected to see a whole list of updates to VNM mobs and other soloable situations being ninja'd today, but I really didn't expect an entire aspect of a job to be removed. They better believe I'm still going to think outside the box and continue tanking as RDM.

That being said, if in fact RDM tanking is dead... I'll be making some decent gil selling off all my nin and rdm tanking gear! I'll also get to continue soloing the **** out of vnm's and any other mob that SE attempts to make unsoloable in the near future.
#61Jajuzza, Posted: Jun 21 2010 at 7:26 PM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) Do you think i'm an idiot? this have nothing to do with loltanking nerf, every rdm cry cause we didnt get new toys like other jobs did, plain and simple...just grow up.
#62 Jun 21 2010 at 8:29 PM Rating: Good
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Do you think i'm an idiot?


Yes.



(... >.> well someone has to fill the Rog void.)
#63 Jun 21 2010 at 8:34 PM Rating: Good
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And the jedi sensed a disturbance in the force, as if a thousand red mages ragequit at once...

Honestly I think all mages have a reason to be annoyed. For years, they've made everything that matters immune to more and more spells, and at this point mages are basically just intended to be cure and haste drones for the melee. Quite unappealing, if you ask me..

But, going out of the way to nerf RDM tanking, why? I guess it's the typical game developer mindset..

"They did something creative. Lets remove it."
#64 Jun 21 2010 at 9:05 PM Rating: Good
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Honestly, enfeebles *shouldn't* pull full hate if they miss/no effect. That's like resisted nukes still pulling the same hate as unresisted ones.

They really should have fixed this a long time ago before it managed to get popular; now there's just going to be a huge backlash.
#65 Jun 21 2010 at 10:01 PM Rating: Good
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Jajuzza wrote:
Do you think i'm an idiot? this have nothing to do with loltanking nerf, every rdm cry cause we didnt get new toys like other jobs did, plain and simple...just grow up.


I do indeed think you are an idiot. You seriously think only 1% of RDMs tank. Holy @#%^ing lol. This update definitely @#%^s over RDM. All we get in return is AoE refresh. Which is almost useless. I can think of less situations where I need to refresh multiple people than situations where I'd be tanking. Damnit SE Smiley: frown. Looks like it's time to change my mind on the first job I take to 80. Was going to do RDM because it could fulfill multiple roles except DD, looks like I get to rethink now!

Edited, Jun 21st 2010 10:02pm by Darkdoom
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#66 Jun 22 2010 at 12:38 AM Rating: Default
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Yea my bad, 1% doesnt sound good...i think maybe 2% rdm's tank, but half of them are idiots so dont count right?
#67 Jun 22 2010 at 1:54 AM Rating: Good
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In case you missed the memo, RDMs are were at least basically the best job you could bring to tank mobs that consistently did high levels of magic damage, due to their combination of decent hate tools, nifty magic damage taken down sets, and built in magic defense bonus (hey, it counts because it's there, right?)

Now there's a fair bit less on the hate tools, and by a fair bit i mean ohgodwhyarn'tthereanyatall. People are losing their JOBS over this! D:

puns are fun.

Edited, Jun 22nd 2010 2:54am by Aiyl
#68 Jun 22 2010 at 4:52 AM Rating: Good
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Fynlar wrote:
Honestly, enfeebles *shouldn't* pull full hate if they miss/no effect. That's like resisted nukes still pulling the same hate as unresisted ones.

They really should have fixed this a long time ago before it managed to get popular; now there's just going to be a huge backlash.
It wouldn't be so bad if all they did was fix enmity accrual from missed/no effect spells, but they went much further than that. From what I'm gathering, they completely flattened CE accrual for all the related spells, whether full contact or not. All to remove RDM from the tanking scene.

S-E isn't simply trying to make PLD the best tank in town, they apparently want it to be the only tank in town.
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#69 Jun 22 2010 at 5:44 AM Rating: Excellent
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I do indeed think you are an idiot. You seriously think only 1% of RDMs tank. Holy @#%^ing lol.


I actually think that's an accurate figure. Sometimes it feels like 99% of RDMs are too stupid to backline properly; I don't even want to think of the disasters that would occur if you actually tried having any of those morons tank.
#70 Jun 22 2010 at 5:59 AM Rating: Decent
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It's not all about main line tanking, though. Sometimes it's simply about pulling hate off someone in need.

Many have been the times in which the tanks in our Dynamis/missions/whatever were a touch busy, and the WHM, BLM, or some ailing DD needed some assistance, where I step in spamming Dispel/Blind/Sleep and hold the aggressor's attention until it can be dealt with (unless, of course, I deal with it myself). Now, I'm no longer sure my RDM will be likely to do that, should the need arise.
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#71 Jun 22 2010 at 6:21 AM Rating: Good
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This update sucks for many jobs. It has been repeated. The only reason I haven't canceled my account is the hope that SE has plans for the jobs that got the short end of the stick this update. I owe it to myself to see it through on the next update that would increase the cap to 85.

The update basically made sure that anyone that subs RDM won't be able to solo like one. This also means that RDMs themselves are viewed by SE as a pigeonhold solo job/poor hybird since every other mage(and I do mean EVERY other mage)surpasses RDM in such a way that a RDM's diverse nature is meaningless. The only role RDM has to offer now is refresh(Which will become obsolete)and enfeebles(Which sadly only matters in a lowman situation).

SE has had a history of ******** up what they had originally planned for the game(2-handers getting massive boost in power/ranged attacks nerfed beyond intend/etc). I'm hoping they realize it. RDM has became a class that isn't as valued as a specialist despite bringing variety to the table. What need for a diversity when specifics had been met?
#72 Jun 22 2010 at 7:59 AM Rating: Excellent
So:

1) No Hastega - we were all looking forward to being able to Accession - Haste/Refresh because that would open up more free time to Melee/Nuke/anything but endlessly Cycle through buffs like we have since day 1 of FFXI. We still get AoE refresh, which is a little improvement, but anyone that plays BRD knows that you are already hardly ever in a 6 mage party unless it's the BLM party in Dynamis, or a few other HNM like BV2, and in those events mages end up scattered anyway. At least in the front line the Melee are grouped around one mob, which in my opinion means that Accession - Haste would have done the most to alleviate the repetitiveness that is RDM.

Still a step up, but still frustrating.

2) They lowered enmity on Blind/Bind/Dispel/Sleep/Sleep2 - Whoever said 1% of RDM tank is a ******* idiot. I'll agree that a large portion of the RDM community exists simply to Haste/Refresh/Enfeeble for events, and that's the limit of their experience. I really got into RDM tanking in Campaign, not only is it great for EXP, it's just really **** fun, and one of the reasons I find myself revisiting Campaign.

A step down for RDM, and not even a necessary one as nothing about RDM tanking was game breaking.

3) Aquaveil - I never messed with the 100% spell interrupt set because I don't have the inventory for it, and even if this change wasn't aimed at RDM, it's still just like adding salt to the wound that lowering enmity on those dark magic spells produced. I'm guessing the idea was for BLM with Manna Wall active to be able to recast Stoneskin without taking damage while /RDM.

A step down for RDM, but I think it's an improvement for the spell itself to be useful.

4) New Spells and Abilities - Err wait, Regen 2 is nice, but I already had that /SCH, and TIV Stone and Water are ******* worthless. They will likely be less efficient than TIII Ice/Thunder spells. Later if we get access to TIV Fire/Ice/Thunder life will be a little better, but up to 80 it's just Meh... Protect V makes me happy for those times we are tankin... Actually this is probably going to be expensive as ****, I'm not looking forward to those scenarios where it's my job to keep that up on people. Oh, also no new job abilities.

Well, we got new stuff so we shouldn't complain because in the end, we're still better than we were two days ago. That's the logic right? If it was your favorite job, you'd feel just as annoyed as we all do right now.

So what makes us unique? At level 80 the only things we have are our T2 merit spells, one of which just became less useful (Phalanx). SCH doesn't get access to Haste and Refresh until the cap gets raised to 99, so that leaves RDM with Paralyze II, Slow II, Dia III, and Bio III. Blind III and Phalanx II are pretty worthless from this point on.

So right now all RDM brings to the table is Haste, Refresh, Para/Slow II, Dia/Bio III. I'm sure it will be a while before the cap gets to 99, but at that point, we will be unique only because of Para/Slow II, Dia/Bio III. I have my fingers crossed that they will add something to the job to make up for its growing trend towards unexceptional, but I don't see how any other class in the game can point at RDM and say we don't deserve to be ******* Try giving PUP Counterstance, Focus, Dodge, Chi-Blast, and Boost then see how the MNKs feel about it.

5) WHM, BLM, BRD, SCH are getting access to another easily obtained piece of Refresh Gear - I don't know about you guys but I think Duelist's Chapeau, Morrigan's Cloak, and Dalmatica are some very coveted, and incredibly tough pieces of gear to obtain. I've heard more horror stories about people on their quest for Duelist's Chapeau than most other pieces of gear in the game. At 80, 2 tic refresh will be the norm for those jobs during Idle, at 99 when everyone has access to Refresh, 5 MP/tic, which is very very hard to get on RDM currently, will be the norm for those jobs all from the AH.

Lets hope somewhere between here and there we get tossed a bone to make up for this or else we lost another trait that made RDM valuable, MP endurance.



I see this group of people on the forums that are literally feeding off of our pain. I guess we were the SAM of the mage community, and now they are all watching and gloating while we indirectly get hit with the nerf stick, but having listed the things that I see are affecting our job negatively, I feel perfectly justified in QQing. RDM to 75 was one of the best things I ever did to enjoy the game it made it so I could do so much more tan previously on my own, no more asking for help to kill NMs, complete missions etc... It unlocked the game for me, and all anyone else had to do to feel the same was level RDM and not suck horribly. Now RDM is pretty much on the bottom of my list of jobs to take past 75...

I think I speak for many when I say "fuck RDM" there's no point in playing a job being steered towards a wanna-be WHM.

Ad where did Rog go?
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#73 Jun 22 2010 at 8:04 AM Rating: Default
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I've tanked on RDM, and it was broken. When you can lowman NM's such as tier3 VNM's by bounce tanking with two RDM/NIN's and kill them with 1 DD, and when RDM starts to overtake PLD in efficiency on HNM's, there has to be a change.

RDM is already the best enfeebler and the best soloer, we don't need to be the best tank too.
#74 Jun 22 2010 at 8:13 AM Rating: Good
Spicychickenzz wrote:
I've tanked on RDM, and it was broken. When you can lowman NM's such as tier3 VNM's by bounce tanking with two RDM/NIN's and kill them with 1 DD, and when RDM starts to overtake PLD in efficiency on HNM's, there has to be a change.

RDM is already the best enfeebler and the best soloer, we don't need to be the best tank too.


So you like needing 18 people to accomplish anything?
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#75 Jun 22 2010 at 10:59 AM Rating: Good
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Rog got muted for a bit.

Quote:
I've tanked on RDM, and it was broken. When you can lowman NM's such as tier3 VNM's by bounce tanking with two RDM/NIN's and kill them with 1 DD, and when RDM starts to overtake PLD in efficiency on HNM's, there has to be a change.

RDM is already the best enfeebler and the best soloer, we don't need to be the best tank too.


I don't think you know what it means for something to be broken, cause this aint it. Two redmages took turns shadow tanking something? AND IT WORKED?! imagine that, teamwork. I bet two nin/rdm could have done the same thing, possibly you'd need one more person to heal them in case of magical -gas since you didn't specify what was being fought. Are they broken too? ****, you could probably have done it with two anydamnthing/nin, because there's two of them. shadows don't recast that hard, and everyone and their mother is wearing a haste set these days.

Now, when I think broken, I don't think of RDM and here's why - you can only do so much in a given period of time. You can't tank/main heal and buff a party/DD/enfeeble all at the same time. It's impossible. You pick a roll going into whatever your activity is and you do that one thing. Maybe you backup one other thing.

now go away and let us go back to QQing. ~.~
#76 Jun 22 2010 at 11:07 AM Rating: Excellent
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Well, after giving it a lot of thought last night, I've decided not to quit RDM. I'm going to back-burner it for a while, though, and focus on (primarily) BLU.

Here's to hoping we actually get a good update before the 99 cap.
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#77 Jun 22 2010 at 11:41 AM Rating: Excellent
I'm passing this on for Rog, at first I thought it was a joke, but after he explained it, it makes a bit of sense.

http://www.bluegartr.com/forum/showpost.php?p=3891915&postcount=86

Deadwing BlueGarter forums wrote:
I think rdm tanks best bet at this point is to drag a level 10 summoner to the place you're tanking, have him setup to equip cassie earrings astral rings and physical earrings in a way that will get him 125 hp shaved off, then the red mage cures 2's him for hate. With a healthy enmity set this would be about 360 CE and 2k VE for only 24 mp.

This is of course not always piratical, but it would be possible.


Basically drag around a level 10 player with a -HP and +HP set, get them on the hate list, then repeatedly force their HP yellow and use Cure II for enmity gain.

I never knew that enmity gain increased faster when curing someone that's low level, so I found this an interesting idea for a tactic, just not wicked practical.
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#78 Jun 22 2010 at 12:01 PM Rating: Excellent
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Aiyl wrote:
I don't think you know what it means for something to be broken, cause this aint it. Two redmages took turns shadow tanking something? AND IT WORKED?! imagine that, teamwork. I bet two nin/rdm could have done the same thing, possibly you'd need one more person to heal them in case of magical -gas since you didn't specify what was being fought. Are they broken too? ****, you could probably have done it with two anydamnthing/nin, because there's two of them. shadows don't recast that hard, and everyone and their mother is wearing a haste set these days.

Now, when I think broken, I don't think of RDM and here's why - you can only do so much in a given period of time. You can't tank/main heal and buff a party/DD/enfeeble all at the same time. It's impossible. You pick a roll going into whatever your activity is and you do that one thing. Maybe you backup one other thing.

now go away and let us go back to QQing. ~.~

Give this man a medal. Also, we were never the best tanks. People need to stop thinking this, not that it matters anymore.

Quote:
I'm passing this on for Rog, at first I thought it was a joke, but after he explained it, it makes a bit of sense.

http://www.bluegartr.com/forum/showpost.php?p=3891915&postcount=86

Are we really grasping that hard for straws? While it's possible, it seems very impractical. One AoE from equates to one very dead SMN.
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#79 Jun 22 2010 at 1:35 PM Rating: Excellent
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Well, I think i will actually make a post that summarizes my feelings about this update, since i can't seem to get it out of my head this morning.

I hate you SE.

I can not believe that this is their idea of realizing jobs the way that they were meant to be played. Isn't that the line they gave us at vanafest or whatever? I mean, I think we're all pretty clear on what we want to be changed about RDM. Cycles suck. I'm sick of casting them. Before this update I had already put RDM away, never to be partied with again, only taken out to help people with NMs or if i needed to do an ENM or something. RDM is my only 75 job, and I do love it ever so dearly, but doing nothing but hasting, refreshing, and curing is not at all my idea of a good time.

I had fun playing the job all the way up to level 60, which is when my gimp face finally got a full set of elemental staves. I tried to do everything and still melee in a party, but there just wasn't any time. Being able to moderately address any task on the fly was what I loved, and that aspect of game play just completely went away. The versatility disappeared from group play; it didn't matter anymore. They just needed cures and hastes and refreshes, nothing more.

The fact that RDM could tank was something that kept that spark of versatility alive for me though. I don't own an enmity set, and I've never really done it seriously, but I was practicing~ I duo with a DRK friend of mine pretty often, and I make it my goal to keep as much hate as I can ;P Not functional at all on the T stuff but i figured going through the motions couldn't hurt.

So now this. One less page in our book, one less task we are able to perform in a group setting. What are we really left with? Honestly? Dia? Kthx.

So yeah. I'm just gonna level paladin (currently 70), since that's where the fun is going to be when it comes to tanking. Probably ranger too, since that's at 65 and has been a lot of fun so far. It just feels like someone burned down my childhood home when it comes to this game. :|
#80 Jun 22 2010 at 2:04 PM Rating: Decent
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Aurore Doublet Def 56 +4 to str dex agi +8 to acc racc eva and stp Double att +2%.......its a doublet, rdm can wear doublets, but not this doublet. So i can get a new sword, nothing special mind you. And some new spiffy mage gear. But i can't get something like this i really want/would really like to have.

You know I pay money to play this game. And you guys pay money for this game. And when a BIG update like this comes along. And shinny new armor like this pops up its sez to me "hey that would be a great peice for my rdm melee" and we get past on it. It's easy to understand why were all so upset. We all pay for this, we all like to melee. SE knows this, yet theres no fine melee gear like this for rdm any where.

We can melee right, not the best at it but we can do it. RDM community been asking for this kinda gear right, Do SE read these forum's? Seem's to be alot of ***** players on here. Isn't the customer always right?

Is it our fault that they set great challenges for all to over come and guys like Rog figure out ways to beat them all by themselves. I thought that was part of the game, to become legends in a fantasy world. So as a reward were just going to nerf this here and nerf that there. And umm yea thanx for the $168 plus dollars a year.

Anyways for that kind of money you would think i could have what I wanted. Instead i'm nerf, giving gear i have plently of, just with slightly better stats??? and nothing that i could really use or want, A few things i was going to get anyways, told that one of the things i was looking foward too i can't have "/sch accession hastera" And basically told don't cry about it, you can do so much already.

What a shame, that doublet would've look nice on me too.
#81 Jun 22 2010 at 2:13 PM Rating: Good
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It just feels like someone burned down my childhood home when it comes to this game. :|


amen to that
#82 Jun 22 2010 at 2:45 PM Rating: Decent
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Yeah, I'm a gentle breeze away from quitting. It kinda sunk in this morning. This isn't going to get better, it's only going to get worse. SE is starting to use their AV style adjustments to bring all the jobs in line with their vision. That's not fun, that's just a dictatorship.

If I make it to the 90 cap, that'll probably be where the final straw drops.
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#83Jajuzza, Posted: Jun 22 2010 at 2:53 PM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) Dude just quit, rdm tank is dead, go cut yourself or something
#84 Jun 22 2010 at 2:53 PM Rating: Excellent
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Tyrantsyn wrote:
Aurore Doublet Def 56 +4 to str dex agi +8 to acc racc eva and stp Double att +2%.......its a doublet, rdm can wear doublets, but not this doublet. So i can get a new sword, nothing special mind you. And some new spiffy mage gear. But i can't get something like this i really want/would really like to have.

You know I pay money to play this game. And you guys pay money for this game. And when a BIG update like this comes along. And shinny new armor like this pops up its sez to me "hey that would be a great peice for my rdm melee" and we get past on it. It's easy to understand why were all so upset. We all pay for this, we all like to melee. SE knows this, yet theres no fine melee gear like this for rdm any where.

We can melee right, not the best at it but we can do it. RDM community been asking for this kinda gear right, Do SE read these forum's? Seem's to be alot of ***** players on here. Isn't the customer always right?

Is it our fault that they set great challenges for all to over come and guys like Rog figure out ways to beat them all by themselves. I thought that was part of the game, to become legends in a fantasy world. So as a reward were just going to nerf this here and nerf that there. And umm yea thanx for the $168 plus dollars a year.

Anyways for that kind of money you would think i could have what I wanted. Instead i'm nerf, giving gear i have plently of, just with slightly better stats??? and nothing that i could really use or want, A few things i was going to get anyways, told that one of the things i was looking foward too i can't have "/sch accession hastera" And basically told don't cry about it, you can do so much already.

What a shame, that doublet would've look nice on me too.


I honestly don't think SE reads or otherwise listens to anyone(non-JP) in all seriousness. I'm reminded of how different the JP play COR compared to us. For the JP, it's /whm by default. For us, it's /rng, /war, and, /dnc. As for RDM, the JP's melee in Campaign and nowhere else typically. So logically that's probably the reason why RDM is stuck in the Pink mage role. We can all discuss the potential of expanding what a RDM is all we want, but if the Devs don't get wind of, what's the point. In all seriousness, 99% of the RDM's don't tank especially anything such as HNM's. Dabbling around in Campaign doesn't count. Looking back at my BST, 90+% don't use their BST for anything serious beyond soloing because it's not useful(according to "other" people) So again, SE sure doesn't see much of a need to fix anything. Personally I feel RDM got lost in the mix of game balance and updates. It's a shame really, yet I don't foresee SE changing their ways anytime soon.
#85 Jun 22 2010 at 3:16 PM Rating: Good
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Guys, stop being melodramatic.

The shock is gone, SE trolled us hard, but it isn't the end of the world. No matter what you all may think, we had a loooong time coming for this. One of these days we were gonna get nerfed. Something had to change because we were too well into a stalemate where we just simply couldn't afford to grow anymore. My guess is, they pulled the plug on this to compensate for something else. I know, it's blind faith, but at this point that's all we got.

Next level cap is gonna determine what SE wants to do with us. Let's wait till then.

Edited, Jun 22nd 2010 4:17pm by CarthRDM
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#86 Jun 22 2010 at 3:36 PM Rating: Good
Ok, **** that Carth.

As much as I was melodramatic in the first 24 hours of hearing this ****. Now I'm downright ****** at both SE and the MASSIVE amount of RDM hate coming out of the woodwork because of this update.

Cut myself? I want to go on a murder rampage and flatten a quarter of the adventurer population of Vana'Diel. It puts to a point how selfish and ******* blind most the players in this game are to anything that isn't the absolute MOST popular thing at the time. FFXI has been out nearly six full years in NA and most of the ******** obsessive players who started the game at 15-17 haven't matured one bit, and I daresay some of the older ones have regressed back to the high school era of thinking.
#87 Jun 22 2010 at 4:04 PM Rating: Excellent
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CarthRDM wrote:
My guess is, they pulled the plug on this to compensate for something else. I know, it's blind faith, but at this point that's all we got.


I hope this is true. And if it is, and RDM gets a real, actual breath of fresh air during the next update/cap raise, then I'll retroactively be OK with this (although if they had told us ahead of time about their plans for RDM it would have been nice). Until then, though, I just can't get invested in the job anymore.

How can I? I'll never know if the set I worked so hard to put together will be obsoleted tomorrow, and not even by better gear; simply because the thing I'm gearing to do is no longer possible.

I'd love to come back to RDM and feel like things are going to be OK, but I've had my hand slammed in the door too many times to throw caution to the wind yet again and hope for the best.

I also agree with Hyrist, some really ugly anti-RDM sentiments have been rearing up since the update. Angry non-RDM mages who blame us for the bandwagon playerbase not inviting them, when we (the career RDMs) never had any interest in Pink-Maging it up anyway. I, for one, can count on one hand the number of merit parties I main-healed on RDM--most of my XP and merits were from Campaign.

When some idiot who doesn't even have a mage job leveled tells me that Accession Haste would have been overpowered anyway, lolz, I want to punch them in the face. It's a pointless kick in the teeth to RDM, WHM, and SCH to not let those abilities work together, and the last thing I need is to have to listen to some DD-only player stroke their e-peen while telling me I don't deserve to have an end to cycles after years of doing them over and over and over and over and over.

I don't care if the job is "powerful". I don't care if it's "popular". I care if it's fun, and at this point, I don't trust SE to deliver. I expect them to grind RDM into the dust.
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#88 Jun 22 2010 at 4:07 PM Rating: Good
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Hyrist wrote:
It puts to a point how selfish and @#%^ing blind most the players in this game are to anything that isn't the absolute MOST popular thing at the time. FFXI has been out nearly six full years in NA and most of the ******** obsessive players who started the game at 15-17 haven't matured one bit, and I daresay some of the older ones have regressed back to the high school era of thinking.

FFXI is simply a microcosm of the world we live in, and five minutes with the average voter will prove to you that this planet is full of the blind leading the blind, so why should a sample size of that population be any different? Ignorant people can be awful spiteful.


This update though, it was something different to me. People are concerned about tanking specifically, but it represents a huge and indicative first in my opinion. For years we've been denied things that might be great for front line promotion--we simply watched as others got them without actually getting anything ourselves. We thought there might be hope when Composure/Tier 2 En-spells came along, but the former was simply a step forward, the latter barely a half-step.

This, though? This is the first time we've actually had anything taken away. And S-E didn't even nerf the parts of the job that made RDM bandwagon or "overpowered." Those spells and mana endurance that replaced WHM as healer for so long, or empowered RDM to over-rated solos... those powers are still intact after this update. The enmity nerfs affect RDM front line most closely, the same front line activity we've been crusading for.

Until now, tanking was probably the closest we'd gotten to welcomed front line activity outside of close friends, Campaign, and the rare enlightened mind. ****, the related spells were useful simply in pulling hate off a comrade, whether meleeing or not, and that was taken away. For what reason, I cannot fathom, but somehow, I don't connect it to anything favorable.


I'm always just on the verge of quitting, this update a really compelling argument to do so. I'm sticking about mostly to the conclusion of the latest Mog Bananza, but unless someone says Walk of Echoes (an extension of my beloved Campaign), turns out to be bloody great, I don't see much reason to pay for a game I'm losing heart for.

I can keep up with updates just fine with an inactive account, maybe September will hold something amazing enough to reactivate it when the time comes.

Edited, Jun 22nd 2010 3:44pm by SunriderRagnarok
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#89 Jun 22 2010 at 5:30 PM Rating: Good
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CarthRDM wrote:
My guess is, they pulled the plug on this to compensate for something else. I know, it's blind faith, but at this point that's all we got.

Next level cap is gonna determine what SE wants to do with us. Let's wait till then.


I was thinking and this is the same conclusion I reached as well. Either they are going to more or less forget about us and we'll be completely overshadowed by Sch or that they are simply taking away in preparation to give to us.

Keep in mind that Rdm tanking isn't the only thing that is getting taken away. As we progress in levels we are going to likely lose daggers as they become stronger but won't likely have the Rdm tag on them and even the Joyeause is going to get outdated if this progression continues to where our weapons will be balanced with everyone elses mainly in that everyone else can get the same type of weapon. (the occ attacks 2-3 times sword may already outclass the joyeasue and I think the new Occ attacks twice one does). This is also probably the same effect that is going to help balance Samurai more as the Hagun will just be outdated at some point and Samurais will be using weapons that are similar to what everyone else is using.

I think the reason SE didn't buff us this update is because we are still the only job that can use the big 3, Convert, haste, and Refresh. Sch can now use 1, either Haste or Convert, and Whm can now use 2 with Convert and Haste. Atm we are still likely to be the prominent mage chosen for a lot of stuff.

Come next update though, Sch can use 2 with Convert and Refresh or Haste, while Whm can use all 3. We are still a different job then whm because we can nuke (especially with more T4s) and do other stuff but our role as a healer and support is probably going to start to fall at this point. SE will likely start to introduce new elements to shift the job one way or another.

Come level 99 though, EVERY job can equip the big 3 and Sch is going to more or less be a superior mage at that point. Hopefully this is when SE finishes tuning Rdm how we want it to be what it was originally supposed to be.

This is an important time as now would be our chance to influence on how the job is going to change. They themselves said that they don't have a solid idea on how the job is going to turn out, they might be more inclined to listen to us at this time while they are looking into how to change rdm for the better and what do people want. If next update comes and there's at least no sense of a new direction THEN you should be concerned. SE probably didn't mess wih Rdm much because it'll probably be fine until the next update while other jobs needed their attention. Rdm probably just has a lower priority at the moment, but as the level climbs closer and closer to 99 or priority should rise as we will come closer and closer to obsoletion.
#90 Jun 22 2010 at 10:01 PM Rating: Good
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I'm sorry but no, Hyrist is right. SE just stabbed us in the back and now we have to take it until the next level cap? RDM wasn't broken and it was barely playable by most of us. By barely playable, I mean most of us would rather play on other jobs because of how stale RDM was and of course the Pink mage stigma. As for myself, I plan to stick with my BLU because it's fun to play. I truly wanted to take RDM to Lv99 before jumping to FFXIV, but now I say why bother. Maybe if enough of us quit the job SE might notice and rethink their plans. I refuse to play the wait and see approach. We've waited for years and with the exception of extreme soloing, RDM never deserved any sort of a nerf. If anything, we needed a buff to give us a purpose beyond a generalist class.
#91 Jun 22 2010 at 10:40 PM Rating: Good
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Funny how you cry over something that only 1% of rdm's do.


1% of RDMs is more than every PUP in the game...just thought I'd throw that out there for thought.
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#92 Jun 22 2010 at 10:42 PM Rating: Default
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SingBismark wrote:
I'm passing this on for Rog, at first I thought it was a joke, but after he explained it, it makes a bit of sense.

http://www.bluegartr.com/forum/showpost.php?p=3891915&postcount=86

Deadwing BlueGarter forums wrote:
I think rdm tanks best bet at this point is to drag a level 10 summoner to the place you're tanking, have him setup to equip cassie earrings astral rings and physical earrings in a way that will get him 125 hp shaved off, then the red mage cures 2's him for hate. With a healthy enmity set this would be about 360 CE and 2k VE for only 24 mp.

This is of course not always piratical, but it would be possible.


Basically drag around a level 10 player with a -HP and +HP set, get them on the hate list, then repeatedly force their HP yellow and use Cure II for enmity gain.

I never knew that enmity gain increased faster when curing someone that's low level, so I found this an interesting idea for a tactic, just not wicked practical.


Can always count on Rog to work out a new exploit...er..."think outside the box."
#93 Jun 22 2010 at 10:44 PM Rating: Default
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Hyrist the Eccentric wrote:
Ok, @#%^ that Carth.

As much as I was melodramatic in the first 24 hours of hearing this sh*t. Now I'm downright ****** at both SE and the MASSIVE amount of RDM hate coming out of the woodwork because of this update.

Cut myself? I want to go on a murder rampage and flatten a quarter of the adventurer population of Vana'Diel. It puts to a point how selfish and @#%^ing blind most the players in this game are to anything that isn't the absolute MOST popular thing at the time. FFXI has been out nearly six full years in NA and most of the ******** obsessive players who started the game at 15-17 haven't matured one bit, and I daresay some of the older ones have regressed back to the high school era of thinking.


I actually laughed out loud about how well this rant applies to the RDM community on here.
#94 Jun 22 2010 at 11:05 PM Rating: Good
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I understand why everyone is angered/downed/depressed/etc. Personally, I went from "****** off" to just feeling rather dejected about the whole thing. I'm pretty much doing what I've always been doing: Low-manning missions and seeing XP parties as "not meant for fun" in the first place. So you can say I've come to terms with the nerf rather quickly.

What Sunrider said though, I've never looked at it from that angle.

Quote:
This, though? This is the first time we've actually had anything taken away. And S-E didn't even nerf the parts of the job that made RDM bandwagon or "overpowered." Those spells and mana endurance that replaced WHM as healer for so long, or empowered RDM to over-rated solos... those powers are still intact after this update. The enmity nerfs affect RDM front line most closely, the same front line activity we've been crusading for.


Now that has me thinking, and rather concerned on what direction SE wants RDM to be in. When I think about that, it makes the greatest fear that much closer to reality. All of the creativity and effort the true RDMs have used for this job can just easily be tossed away with a flick of a wrist. Makes me wonder if doing anything outside of the box will ever be worth it.

I'm rather attached to my RDM though. It's the job I identify myself with. So for me it's still too early to throw in the towel on this job. But the next level cap will definitely be the dealbreaker for me.
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#96 Jun 23 2010 at 1:44 AM Rating: Excellent
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It's kinda funny, I touched RDM for the first time tonight in a while, but it wasn't to EXP or even Campaign, but just to help my DRK buddy work on his Apoc trial. I was going RDM/DNC (mainly for Dual Wield and the occasional Healing Waltz to cure Para), but as I was running around doing my sword-chuck enfeebling intro-tanker things while just keeping Haste on him, I thought to myself... "I'm hitting a **** of a lot of buttons..." when, watching him, all he really had to do was keep Hasso up, WS when the mob was low enough to get his points, and then just move on to the next mob.

Stoneskin, Refresh, Phalanx, Haste, Enthunder, Ice Spikes, Barblizzard, Barparalyze, and the occasional Regen and Stoneskin recast. Every mob I was casting slow, usually tossing out DB at the start, too. Running between mobs I'd have to be swapping out of my Dusk so I wasn't moving Genbu style. And I know he's swinging an Apoc and all, but despite all this, he was pulling hate pretty early and honestly didn't need me all that much. All I was doing was making kills a little faster and giving him some conversation when I wasn't pushing one of my billion needed macros.

In the more traditional cycle ***** style, just replace those others with more Refreshes, Hastes, and Cures. Still, the contrast in focus needed between myself and him feels staggering. ****, this disconnect is what initially converted me to SAM/DNC for Campaign back in the day. Loosely translated, we can say this isn't fun, but what gets me is how all this added effort isn't creating a monumentally greater character. Sure, I could've just follow him around and not meleed at all, but he might've only gotten 50 kills instead of 75 before he wanted to log for the night. But I wonder if I came SAM/DNC instead, would we had hit 80-100 in the same span?

I don't even know if I'm really mad at the update, or general lack thereof. I don't believe RDM tanking is as widespread as some believe given the relative rarity of HNMs and claim systems, but I can at least feel for those who feel robbed. I was content with just letting LS PLDs handle whatever, whenever, and in the odd event I had the itch to tank, I would just level PLD, myself. Could say it was part of the Maat's Cap plan before the actual cap increase, but jumping to Aion for a few months kinda killed that goal.

I left Aion because their 1.9 patch blew and within the past couple weeks, my connectivity to the server has simply been atrocious. While things are more stable here, I'm just wondering what I can do without some monster LS at my back. I need some Ruthven Nails to finish my Antea. I'd need to start the other version, too. I tried my best to take out as many Hippogryphs as I could for my THF's dagger, but these mobs @#%^ing suck and I only got 152/300 after like 10 hours dedicated to nothing but them with a bored PUP helping me for maybe 60 kills. I know I'll eventually hit the same roadblock if I go the Verthandi path, but even if I took THF to 80 instead, I don't think it'll make the Hippos significantly easier when I need to repeat for another dagger.

In terms of actual EXP, everyone's cramming into the 75+ areas like being 80 RIGHT NOW will change the world despite how little content we actually got for the level. Post-patch I did run around and fetch all the BLU spells aside from the Abyssea ones, but really all I'm left with right now is 3 jobs about 5k into 76 and still no clue what I want to do because the "good stuff" requires people who are both good enough and don't rub me the wrong way. And I just can't bring myself to shake the feeling I only run into people who will do something if there's profit in it for them. I didn't come back to recreate the FFXI experience of old I had where 5/7 nights of the week had scheduled events. I just wanna log on, play for a bit, and get sh*t done. Could be for myself. Could be for a friend. As is, I was looking forward to the level cap increase to shake up the game, but in general, I can't say what's happened across the board has done anything of the sort just having seen this community in action over the years. Eventually the "ooo, shiny!" will fade and it'll be back to business as usual. While it's easy for us to say the update was underwhelming for RDMs, getting a better scope of the whole has been a bit depressing, too.

Edited, Jun 23rd 2010 3:55am by Seriha
#97 Jun 23 2010 at 2:02 AM Rating: Good
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Seriha wrote:
I tried my best to take out as many Hippogryphs as I could for my THF's dagger, but these mobs @#%^ing suck and I only got 152/300 after like 10 hours dedicated to nothing but them with a bored PUP helping me for maybe 60 kills. I know I'll eventually hit the same roadblock if I go the Verthandi path, but even if I took THF to 80 instead, I don't think it'll make the Hippos significantly easier when I need to repeat for another dagger.


Sounds like you are killing the Grauberg Hippogryphs. You might consider taking a look at Strato Hyppogryphs. From what I have heard, at least with the Promies, are that most of the monsters are still their regular level while some of the more out of the way groups of monsters have been changed to 75. With any luck you might be able to find some lvl 55 Hippos as opposed to lvl 75 ones you are fighting in Grauberg.



Edited, Jun 23rd 2010 4:03am by SlashAnonymous
#98 Jun 23 2010 at 2:23 AM Rating: Good
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I did a mix of both, about 50 from Riverne. Big trouble with the Stratos was, at 76, some were spawning TW. Plus respawn timers in Riverne are 16m and people would just be randomly killing them for no reason that I could discern. I'd tried to ask if someone in shell had a job in the low 70s they'd wanna sync to, but most everyone seemed more interested in leveling.
#99 Jun 23 2010 at 2:55 AM Rating: Good
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I actually laughed out loud about how well this rant applies to the RDM community on here.


We've been whored out to the whims of a lazy playerbase since 2004, and misrepresented by a flock of banwagon humping opportunists that just want "a quick party invite".

Considering we're giving out the things that put us in this 'prestige' position, I say we've earned the right to be a little selfish.

As to your other point. A good Red Mage is the least blind player in the game, as they've dabbled in all aspects of play, and have the advantage of seeing both the obvious, and the subtle work in the game.

And believe me, I could go on about that forever.
#100 Jun 23 2010 at 4:50 AM Rating: Excellent
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To be truthful, I wasn’t really “gung ho” logging in yesterday. Though I only needed 1 more stored merit for the limit quest, getting it seemed more like work than fun. Once I did a /sea all for the FoV zones, I was even more turned off. 78 people in Cape V and 30+ in sky, most of those on birds/pots.

I don’t use my RDM to tank (in the sense that some of you do) and my melee is mainly with friends for random quests/farming/low level NMs. In light of that, my play style was/is the same as is was back in 2004. Something I enjoyed, that feeling of being apart of the group supporting the party with defeating whatever foe we were facing. Those days of splitting haste with the white mages, deciding on a refresh cycle, and the para/slow/dia/etc casting.

I don’t know, you can call me an old man who can’t change his ways, but that part of being a red mage really made it fun for me. After getting Sea access and joining my first Limbus group, getting Paralyze to proc 6-8 times in a row on Omega the first time made my day…to the point of calling it out in /party. Or the first time I got Silence to stick on Suzy during her 2hr back when Sky was where the party was at. It made it feel like all the gil and time spent getting all that Enfeeb+ gear and all the MND you could find was worth it.

I know most of you don’t feel the same and perhaps will say we don’t want to be a one-trick pony, but I miss those days. I’m upset that SE is overlooking the one part of our job that they themselves made a central part of. Sure white and black mage had access to the same spells (until merits that is), but when you wanted a mob/boss ham-strung you called on the red mage. Get in there and do your thing!

After the last several updates where SE has either a.) made the mobs immune to most or all of the major enfeebs or b.) just plain made it not worth casting, I feel less and less driven to play the job. I still love red mage, it was my first to 75 in the old days and I’ll never hide away my Pimp Hat v.2. But after this update and the direction or lack of direction that SE is sending our job, I can’t help but wonder “Why am I playing this still?”

I didn’t start playing red mage to spam haste/refresh for hours on end. I started it cause in the slightest way; I was assisting the team winning. I never chose sides on the backline/frontline battles, to each their own I say. I had my fun in the back ranks, just as many of you enjoy being up front tanking or parsing above average melee. I just wish SE wouldn’t pass over the one skill they gave us in the first place.
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#101 Jun 23 2010 at 12:24 PM Rating: Good
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