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#52 Mar 09 2010 at 3:29 PM Rating: Decent
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Xauna wrote:
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Brd x2 is kind of silly, when there's cor. I have to say i'm a bit skeptical of 30k/hr with 4 rdms. I would be extremely impressed if you pulled that off.

I dunno. BRDx2 would allow for more haste,
No. March/min is retarded. March x2 or gtfo. March/min may be worth while with a bunch of kc rngs, but even then, i doubt it would beat march x2.

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Chigoe burns actually.

I dunno if I've ever even heard of one of those on my server. :/
Could be because they suck without at least one kc? Or maybe because smn burns are better unless you have a minimum of 2-3 good plers? I don't know, but they really can be amazing.
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#53 Mar 09 2010 at 3:30 PM Rating: Default
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you never saw an incorrect get in this post >:/
Sorry, but i did.
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#54 Mar 09 2010 at 4:20 PM Rating: Good
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ThePsychoticOne the Prohpet wrote:
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you never saw an incorrect get in this post >:/
Sorry, but i did.

This $100 bill says otherwise...
#55 Mar 09 2010 at 5:32 PM Rating: Decent
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The idea isn't for rdm to take the place of a dd. That's would just be silly. But to add to damage while preforming his normal job. This would take away from the 1 to 6 hours rdm mages would spend sitting in the back just casting refresh haste and heal spells all day. I don't want to become a DD, i just don't want to die from boredom any more in the back.
From duo and trio experience i know i can sit on the front line and heal buff and debuff. I can prove that to anyone in campaign battle. The trick front line work for a rdm is being on the top of your game. If your missing heal's and buffs because your to busy trying to get in a weapon skill's, your cheating the party and yourself.
If you wanna be on the front line, you better bring your A game. Because your going to be doom to the back forever if you can't do what ppl need outta you.
Don't wait for SE to give you something. Take what you have and prove it can be done. Than maybe were get lucky and SE will add on to it.
#56 Mar 10 2010 at 6:44 PM Rating: Good
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SCH is not better then BLM as a nuker, they are just more MP efficient. BLM's got higher MAB / INT along with bigger nukes. SCH has more utility and can nuke longer then BLM. But both are not limited by MP they are limited by enmity on the target. Also SCH does not get stun, which is one of the perks of using BLM (they can do stun rotation on top of nuking).

Contrary to the popular bandwagon at the moment, SAM is not the best DD nor is it SE's special job. For a long time SAM was next to DRG and DRK for potential. It was RNG, WAR, MNK and NIN for everything. Then SE started on all job adjustments. They were just really successful with SAM combined with the 2H update. But DRG/SAM, WAR/SAM, and DRK/SAM are all on equal footing with a SAM main, its about abusing hasso and haste. But I digress...

Parties DO have a use for a RDM/NIN, but it requires some ballz. This can work in one of two different setups.

DD
DD
DD
Healer (preferably WHM)
BRD/NIN (March x2)
RDM/NIN

This situation the RDM is providing offensive power along with support cures and full time Dia III on every single monster. This easily beats out any 4xDD Healer + BRD setup imaginable. And its died with a BRD x 2 setup. With the RDM being able to cure IV bomb DD's, the other DD's should rarely have to use defensive measures.

The second setup requires extremely pimp melee's but works wonders.

DD
DD
RDM/NIN
BRD/NIN
COR (or BRD, either works, preferably a BRD with a decent melee set)
Healer (really want a WHM here)

Both DD's just go nuts, DRK/WAR, DRG/WAR, full time hasso on SAM/DRG and WAR/SAM. MNK/WAR, you name it. No defensive options, just full bore kill it now. The RDM and second melee support (COR or BRD) get buffed their damage scales accordingly. I've averaged over 700 Death Blossum's doing this, with high's of over 1K at MJSP. Pizza +1 FTW. Really wished the 2nd BRD was /NIN with blau / joy and a good melee build, rather then being /WHM and sitting on their a$$ the entire time.

People don't try these setups because they never think to, they work the same if not better (depending) as the 3xDD + 2x support + healer. But requires people to be on the ball because there isn't much room for error.
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#57 Mar 11 2010 at 5:02 AM Rating: Default
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saevellakshmi wrote:
SCH is not better then BLM as a nuker, they are just more MP efficient. BLM's got higher MAB / INT along with bigger nukes. SCH has more utility and can nuke longer then BLM. But both are not limited by MP they are limited by enmity on the target.
lol? If you'r limited by hate, urdoinitrong. For hnm, the tank should always have capped hate within 5 minutes, so enmity is completely irrelevant, unless you can't survive a single hit. For regular mobs, you just kite, np. Mp efficiency is about the only thing matters 95% of the time. Damage per nuke only matters when you only need to kill one mob, and you can kill it before you run out of mp, or if you're about to kill a green statue, or afk.

Edited, Mar 11th 2010 6:03am by ThePsychoticOne
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#58 Mar 11 2010 at 11:41 AM Rating: Excellent
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People don't try these setups because they never think to, they work the same if not better (depending) as the 3xDD + 2x support + healer. But requires people to be on the ball because there isn't much room for error.


The more ideal thing there is to replace RDM/NIN with DNC/NIN, since lv.1 Box Step on top of Dia II = Dia III, plus Haste Samba, plus massive healing potential if necessary.

RDM/NIN is a possibility, but at that point you're honestly able to add quite a number of hybrid DDs in and have things work.
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#59 Mar 12 2010 at 4:04 PM Rating: Good
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If you have a DNC/NIN... then who is putting Dia II / III on the targets? The guy in the back is busy haste / spaming cure on the MP sponges. And anyone who claims to "put dia on every mob" is either lying, or doing it whent he mob has < 50% HP (at whcih time its effect is dubious). Also DNC must spend TP to support, they give up significant damage to do those things. BLU's are forced into the same situation, they must give up damage to cure ppl.

In FFXI nothing is free, everything has an opertunity cost involved. Beauty of RDM is that it gives up the least to gain the most compared to every other job. The whole concept of having something like a RDM along over a pure DD is to let others ignore defense completely while also getting the benefits of 17.6% attack boost on every mob.

Plus there ~should~ be many different PT setups and possibilities. If we restrict ourselves to "only the best setup, otherwise don't do it" then everyone should just SMN burn for everything...
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Nothing in this game is impossible if you set yourself to the task of actually doing it. Even dumb people can only hold you back for so long.


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when you're hefting something that deadly, you don't miss - mobs get the **** out of the way instead...
#60 Mar 12 2010 at 4:34 PM Rating: Excellent
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saevellakshmi wrote:
Plus there ~should~ be many different PT setups and possibilities. If we restrict ourselves to "only the best setup, otherwise don't do it" then everyone should just SMN burn for everything...


Sadly, the game isn't very far from this point. Sure, maybe it's just the collective state of Fairy with the pending merge, but I took NIN from 37 to 50 without a single invite. Nonetheless, we can't refute a trickle down effect of people believing what works at 75 will work at 25, etc.. This rarely takes into account that gear and abilities are usually why certain things become possible, but I guess one could argue PLs offset that lack, but not everyone has access to one.

Was tempted to buy my way into an AB for a leech spot just to get NIN over with, but every time I asked people with appropriate comments, they were always full. Not really looking forward to leveling DNC to 50, either, as while /BST is handy in this regard, I'd consider its offense lacking even more than NIN at this phase. They'll be some long, long levels.
#61 Mar 12 2010 at 4:48 PM Rating: Good
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saevellakshmi wrote:
If you have a DNC/NIN... then who is putting Dia II / III on the targets? The guy in the back is busy haste / spaming cure on the MP sponges. And anyone who claims to "put dia on every mob" is either lying, or doing it whent he mob has < 50% HP (at whcih time its effect is dubious).


You know as well as I do that I'm as pro-melee as they come (i.e. I have no reason to lie about this), but when I've main healed merits I found it pretty easy to get Dia II onto the mob at ~80% HP or greater most of the time (obviously with exceptions). Dia III is obviously ridiculous unless you have a Gjallarbard Ballading you, or your BRD doesn't stop Ballading you just because you got a COR, but Dia II was not hard to keep applied.

Of course, with /SCH40 it will become very easy to keep Dia II up on the mobs due to a lack of cycles/anything else to do but toss cures. At which point, I daresay any RDM worth their salt will pull out a sword and smack the mob. The sad thing is people moan and complain about COR/WHM being a "waste" but would probably be completely fine with a RDM who Hastegas every 3 minutes, spot Cures, and tosses Dia II every 20-30 seconds in between surfing the web.

The point where a simple bot can do your job to the same degree of effectiveness as you is just pathetic.
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#62 Mar 12 2010 at 6:08 PM Rating: Decent
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Its not the MP that is a problem, its the time. With 3x haste (4x in that wretched PT setup everyone still makes) with intermittent cures, your spell locked at least 50% of the time. People will not wait for you to finish Hasting them, or dropping a cure bomb to WS the monster.

I'm a huge /SCH fan, but even then my casting looks like this..

Haste Melee #1
Regen Melee #1
Cure
Haste Melee #2
Regen Melee #2
Cure
Haste Melee #3
Regen Melee #3
Cure

That process takes 45 ~ 60 seconds depending on how tight your recasts are. Both those spells have annoyingly long cast / recast times. During that period of time melee's are (should be) stomping monsters into the ground. You could attempt to throw Dia II's (30 MP) in there but the likely hood of the monster being >80% HP for that three second window you have is very slim. Next time your in a merit PT as a healer, mentally keep track of the number of monsters and time between 100% ~ 80% HP, its a VERY shoot window. If your doing anything at all, the time it takes you to cancel your action and cast Dia would already have that window blown by and your looking at reduced returns. A Dia II at 80% HP is 20% less efective then one at 100% HP for the exact same MP cost. At 75% HP or less its really not worth your time / MP unless its a THF or Wivre type mob.

Then you have the MP issue, if your not having MP problems then your melee's are playing too defensively or their watching TV. Melee's should be pushing you as hard as possible, this means not casting Ichi, full timing Hasso, riding Bergressor. If you still think MP is fine then have the MNK go /WAR, and the DRK / DRG to forget they have Seigan, or even go /WAR themselves.

And to top it all off, the more bad a$$ your melee's are the quicker monsters die and the shorter the 100~80% HP window is. We're talking 1~3 seconds depending on if anyone has TP during the first few hits. You'd be lucky to get it on any monster as a back liner. As a front liner its much easier, the moment auto-target switchs you hit your Dia III macro and it fires off, usually right as the first melee hits the monster.

And to Rog, Mr "I only merit with a BRD + COR and my **** doesn't stink either" you can kindly stuff it good sir. On lakshmi everyone is SMN burning these days, so finding ~anyone~ to do merits is a huge PITA. Forget a BRD I'm lucky to find a healer and a hand full of decent DD's. Every single friend of mine has leveled SMN explicitly for burns, they all take turns leveling each others jobs and merits. But with me living in South Korea my play times rarely line up during their "free" times (non scheduled LS events) for burns. Originally I thought SMN burn's were ok, good bone to throw SMN's considering how undervalued they are. But now... its gotten out of hand. People were afraid Campaign would destroy the need for XP / Merit parties but it didn't. SMN burning ~has~ completely destroyed the need for those things. The only plus side is the merit camps are pretty empty these days... shame you can't get the people for a merit PT together. Now soon garuda will be merging with us, so I expect that to change ... hopefully.
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Nothing in this game is impossible if you set yourself to the task of actually doing it. Even dumb people can only hold you back for so long.


Lucinus wrote:
when you're hefting something that deadly, you don't miss - mobs get the **** out of the way instead...
#63 Mar 12 2010 at 7:18 PM Rating: Excellent
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If you have a DNC/NIN... then who is putting Dia II / III on the targets? The guy in the back is busy haste / spaming cure on the MP sponges. And anyone who claims to "put dia on every mob" is either lying, or doing it whent he mob has < 50% HP (at whcih time its effect is dubious). Also DNC must spend TP to support, they give up significant damage to do those things. BLU's are forced into the same situation, they must give up damage to cure ppl.


The same backline healer that could already be doing it, sure.

If you're massacring mobs anyway, leaving a small window for Dia II/III, then you don't really need it in the first place. That's not to say that lowered DEF isn't nice, but it's certainly possible to be at the point where it's unnecessary to maintain kill speed.

DNC gains TP by doing Steps. Healing takes away from TP, sure, but it would for a RDM/NIN as well. In the case of DNC it's giving up already gained TP, in the case of a RDM or BLU, it's TP that would be gained while swinging were you not casting.

Thing is, a DNC -can- pick up a very large amount of the healing if that's what works. In my static for it, that was the balance that worked. Last time I merited on it in an LS party of SAM DRG DNC RDM BRD COR I spent a lot of TP curing as well, but I still parsed on par with the COR. Still, it meant the RDM had no MP issues despite melees completely going all out. Frankly, that party was limited on pull speed more than anything else, though we still managed 30k/hr at birds/wivres.

What you seem to be complaining about is exactly the dynamic that I've found DNC to work nicely as. With the added benefit that, unlike with a RDM, I can stack more Haste on.
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#64 Mar 12 2010 at 8:08 PM Rating: Good
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'Why have a Red Mage in the front lines when you can have a dancer' argument is of no surprise to me at all. To be honest in my opinion that's fine. I don't mind competing with a dancer for that spot so long as we're on par in that regard. Which, it pans out, that we are, though more on the support side than the offensive side, which can be remidied.

Again we continue arguing about dated mechanics. Last time we posed arguments like this was before Composure and Enspell II line, and now we've a native 7.5% accuracy increase and tripple duration on self buffs.

In the next level cap that gets paired off with /SCH's ability to AoE buffs, which is going to make support in the back line easy to the point of mundane, so long as SE follows the ruleset they've currently kept with Ascension. Even if they disqualify haste, the ability to AoE Regen II and Stoneskin is going to make healing for the Red Mage a breeze. They might as well be casting Dia in that small window.

The same goes for any support element placed in that slot, especially if haste IS a candidate. At that point anyone in the front line ,be it Red Mage or Dancer will have a better time keeping up with pumping the damage support.

Then again, with the current caps, we really didn't even need that level of assistance to become limited by pulls rather than performance. We have no idea if future camps will fare as well or what dynamics will change in EXP parties at that point. That's half the fun of it being all up in the air.

However, in the concept of providing new spells and skills for Red Mage, it is my opinion that we needed fear copying or getting into conflict with some of Dancer's JA's. Currently, Scholar has the option of AoEing our tier I enspells, a trait we should get as the cap raises to 80.

However, what I would like to see is THAT particular ability become native to us somehow without the use of /sch. There is of course the simple method of simply giving us AoE Enspell spells at higher levels. (Enblizzardga, etc.) Or we can have a third tier of enspells that function much like the Dancer's Daze effect, causing Enspell Effects to appear on successive strikes. In this case what SE could do to balance the power of it is have the initial hit, the one provided by the Red Mage, at or near to the strength gain of an Enspell II, then have the following strikes (The ones that would be trigger by the Elemental Daze effect.) Inflict a lesser degree of elemental damage, determined directly by the damage of the previous hit by the Red Mage. Granted, it's stealing directly from Dancer in that regard, but it is an idea.

A third option came to mind when I kept hearing about the argument facing the use of Dia II/III and the kill speed of monsters. Which makes me consider that perhaps we've taken the wrong approach with the requests for Enlight and Endark all these years. As those sort of elements were never truly native to the job. Instead, why not EnDia and EnBio?

Anyways, I'm still waiting for the March update to come and go before I start condensing and organizing ideas. Still there is plenty to mull over.
#65 Mar 13 2010 at 7:16 AM Rating: Decent
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Back liner casting Dia II on every mob in such a small window all the time is a thing of theory crafting and wishful thinking. As I said before, anyone who's making that claim is either lying, or putting it on at / around 50% HP. You can not stop casting whatever it is your casting to apply Dia II / III, the games forced delay would already have you blow by the window. This means you'd have to force yourself not to be busy for that time, this equals to missed haste's and cures.

Monsters don't all live the exact same time, not even close. Melee gain TP at different rates and should not be holding TP waiting for you to finish Haste so you can apply Dia II, or wait for you to finish curing someone (their all riding Hasso or using /WAR remember) to apply Dia II.

In all my years of merits, I've never ever ever seen one RDM be able to stick Dia II on even 50% of the mobs within a 100~80% HP window. Myself with /SCH, full relic and merits can't stick it on half the mobs within that small window. We're simply too busy doing other crap as a single healer. Our "free time" is dictated by the actions of the melee and the length of our cycles, not by the monsters HP remaining. Lining up your free time with the monsters HP is not possible without giving up something else. And this is without getting into what happens when melee's throw all defensive measures out the window in favor of a better offense. Once that happens good luck spending that 30 MP per monster and waiting for the right moment.

Onto the DNC issue, they spend large amounts of TIME to acquire that TP for reverse flourish. Steps force a lag of 60~180 delay units before it allows your round to continue and for little actual benefit because the monster is gonna die too quickly. Those steps prevents swing time, thus lower DoT. They can then choose to use their TP for DE's or spending large amounts healing. Similar to how a BLU can choose to cast Diss or Magic Fruit, but never both for the same MP. RDM's support power comes from our MP, our offensive power comes from our weapons and the 12MP enspell. Blowing 88MP on a Cure IV will only cause me to miss one swing, it will not subtract from my WS or other damage pool. And I can just refill it once per 9m.

Again everything has opportunity costs, and I mean everything. Nothing is free but some things are cheaper then others. For RDM we get the most while sacrificing the least. Everyone else, DDs casters and hybrids alike, must sacrifice something significant in order to do something else. And for some jobs the sacrifice will never be worth it (WAR/WHM and other silliness).
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lolgaxe wrote:
Nothing in this game is impossible if you set yourself to the task of actually doing it. Even dumb people can only hold you back for so long.


Lucinus wrote:
when you're hefting something that deadly, you don't miss - mobs get the **** out of the way instead...
#66 Mar 13 2010 at 7:31 AM Rating: Default
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saevellakshmi wrote:
In all my years of merits, I've never ever ever seen one RDM be able to stick Dia II on even 50% of the mobs within a 100~80% HP window.
Then you've merited with a lot of bad rdms then. I get dia on before mobs get to 80% probably 75% of the time, and before 50% probably 90%. Around 5% of the time i cast it later than 50%, and the rest i don't cast it. If you can't get dia on before 80% more than half the time, you're doing something rong. Really, unless someone uses a ws right away, you'd have to start casting something after they started fighting a new mob to not cast dia before 80%, which is rather stupid (cures can always wait that soon, since you don't have to worry about pecking flurry, and you should be recasting haste before it wears off, so 3 extra seconds won't hurt at all).
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#67 Mar 13 2010 at 11:05 AM Rating: Excellent
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Onto the DNC issue, they spend large amounts of TIME to acquire that TP for reverse flourish. Steps force a lag of 60~180 delay units before it allows your round to continue and for little actual benefit because the monster is gonna die too quickly. Those steps prevents swing time, thus lower DoT. They can then choose to use their TP for DE's or spending large amounts healing. Similar to how a BLU can choose to cast Diss or Magic Fruit, but never both for the same MP. RDM's support power comes from our MP, our offensive power comes from our weapons and the 12MP enspell. Blowing 88MP on a Cure IV will only cause me to miss one swing, it will not subtract from my WS or other damage pool. And I can just refill it once per 9m.

Again everything has opportunity costs, and I mean everything. Nothing is free but some things are cheaper then others. For RDM we get the most while sacrificing the least. Everyone else, DDs casters and hybrids alike, must sacrifice something significant in order to do something else. And for some jobs the sacrifice will never be worth it (WAR/WHM and other silliness).


JAs have a delay, sure, but so does casting. Why minimize the impact of casting and focus on JA delay?
Steps are still a net TP gain. Spend 20TP for 4 Finishing Moves, RF for 46-61TP (depending on merits) back. I doubt you'd get the extra, say, 40TP in that couple seconds using the steps delayed you.

Also, why focus on Dia like it's the end-all benefit and dismiss the benefit of Steps?

DNC is not a DD, same as RDM is not a DD. That something they do for support purposes might lose an attack round or two in a fight isn't critical, especially since they gain more TP in the long run from it + enfeeble the mob in the process.

There are always tradeoffs, sure. By focusing on healing, a DNC isn't going all-out damage. That said, the process that they'd go all-out damage on would be the same. Using Steps = Finishing Moves. If you want big WS on DNC, you need Finishing Moves for Building Flourish. Maybe even Wild Fourish. So you still need to do Steps, unless you only want Finishing Moves every three minutes from No Foot Rise.
Delay or not, Steps are an integral part of DNC, offensive or defensive.

Same with gaining TP. You're pushing to get TP whether you're using it to cure or to WS.

DNC isn't perfect, but like I said, they're complementary for a backline healer. A frontline RDM is offering practically nothing (in terms of support) that a backline mage couldn't technically already be doing.
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#68 Mar 13 2010 at 1:20 PM Rating: Decent
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I'm not referring to the TP gain of a DNC but the loss of DPS. As much as people hype WS and BNS, its the act of smacking the monster that deals the most damage in the long run. Only SAM, RNG and BLU can deal more WS (or spell) damage then DoT. A pimped out WAR/SAM can deal 50/50. Its the opportunity cost of not hitting the monster that I'm referring to. And I only bring up steps because you brought them up first. Plus with our FC tossing out a Cure IV has a MUCH less impact on our damage output then a high end Waltz. We don't struggle to get PT while cure bombing, not even remotely. And while we loose 1~2 swings to cast Dia III on every monster, its nothing compared to the force delay on steps / waltzes and flourish's. Plus last I checked DNC doesn't get access to multi-hitting weapons.

I'm against the "if your gonna invite a RDM/NIN might as well invite a DNC instead" line of reasoning. That leads to WAR SAM SAM BRD COR RDM as the only viable merit PT setup (there are actually a few different builds that could do better). Plus its entirely wrong, the idea of DNC being better at melee output then a RDM. The only universe that's remotely possible is vs colibri if the RDM isn't pimped out for daggers.
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lolgaxe wrote:
Nothing in this game is impossible if you set yourself to the task of actually doing it. Even dumb people can only hold you back for so long.


Lucinus wrote:
when you're hefting something that deadly, you don't miss - mobs get the **** out of the way instead...
#69 Mar 13 2010 at 1:27 PM Rating: Decent
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saevellakshmi wrote:
Only SAM, RNG and BLU can deal more WS (or spell) damage then DoT. A pimped out WAR/SAM can deal 50/50.
Bah, i wish i saved a parse of my rng, doing 99% of my damage with ws Smiley: laugh

Ok, more like 90~95%, but whatever.

Edited, Mar 13th 2010 2:30pm by ThePsychoticOne
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#70 Mar 13 2010 at 3:44 PM Rating: Good
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I'm against the "if your gonna invite a RDM/NIN might as well invite a DNC instead" line of reasoning. That leads to WAR SAM SAM BRD COR RDM as the only viable merit PT setup (there are actually a few different builds that could do better). Plus its entirely wrong, the idea of DNC being better at melee output then a RDM. The only universe that's remotely possible is vs colibri if the RDM isn't pimped out for daggers.


As I said already, DNC isn't a DD. RDM isn't a DD. The big benefit of a DNC in a merit party, zerg party, etc, is for Haste Samba, and even then only if fully merited. That is something a RDM/NIN just plain cannot do. Haste Samba means you can effectively hit the haste cap without Soul Voice (though supposedly Haste Samba bypasses the cap anyway). 70% Haste to 80% is a rather large damage increase for all melees.

The potential for healing with zero downtime (actually being hurt by downtime) is a bonus as well. If a RDM had to cast Cure IV + Cure III every time they would have WS'ed, MP won't last. A DNC can do that and then some.

You're talking about a hybrid role, and for that, a DNC does more for the party. If your party setup has room for a RDM/NIN on the premise of casting Dia and backup healing, then a DNC easily fills that role, and can do more with it. Point is more that the spot is for continuing to buff the **** out of your primary DDs, which a RDM doesn't really do when coupled with a WHM or second RDM.

If you don't know a merited DNC, then fine, lotta people don't - in fact, that's the primary complaint with the healer BRD COR DNC 2x DD setup as it becomes more known/popular.

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Plus last I checked DNC doesn't get access to multi-hitting weapons.


Not daggers, no, but you might want to recheck your Joyeuse's usable jobs (though it's not usually recommended for higher level mobs). DNC also does have Saber Dance, though if actually using Waltzes it won't be full-timed.

Right now DNC is pretty much tuned town to not be overpowering as a DD, same as COR is. Maybe that'll change as the cap goes up, or maybe it'll become a more robust support job, I dunno.
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#71 Mar 13 2010 at 3:51 PM Rating: Good
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-13% 5~7% def box step, 10% haste samba.

Huh. Weird. I could have swore rdm has -15% def, and 15% haste.

Edited, Mar 13th 2010 4:51pm by ThePsychoticOne
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#72 Mar 13 2010 at 4:30 PM Rating: Good
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DNC isn't perfect, but like I said, they're complementary for a backline healer. A frontline RDM is offering practically nothing (in terms of support) that a backline mage couldn't technically already be doing.


That Depends entirely on your job choice, and what you mean by 'support'. As what you do bring in redundancy can often free up other options for other jobs.

With the extra healing power, Scholar can forgo AoE Regengas in favor of AoE Enspells, paired with a Storm-surge Firestorm and a Red Mage's Enblizzard II, you've got a dedicated form of enhanced damage not previously applicable, not to mention lack of Dia III for choice monsters.

With the ability to split both hasting and curing duties, Red Mage and White Mage can BOTH be in the front lines while doing support, (If appropriately geared) eliminating the back line all together and providing greater overall party DPS than a standard Support / Healer job combo.

The only crux of this matter is that it requires both jobs to be a bit more attentive. Less "Press button, resume watching favorite sitcom" is usually considered a bad thing to grinders.

And this is all, again, with current standards. If Ascension becomes fully functional as a subjob, there will be no way NOT to gain additional support by bringing another job in. There are simply too many combinations available at that point.

Red Mage has always been a perspective-driven job. If you beleive there isn't anything 'new" to the table bringing Red Mage to the front, then you won't see anything, and when presented with them, you'll simply list an alternative you feel is 'better'. If you're the opposing viewpoint, you'll justify it in any possible fashion, and you'll FIND the advantages, even when others have dismissed them.

There's really no such thing as an unbiased situation in that regard.
#73 Mar 13 2010 at 5:25 PM Rating: Excellent
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ThePsychoticOne the Prohpet wrote:
-13% 5~7% def box step, 10% haste samba.

Huh. Weird. I could have swore rdm has -15% def, and 15% haste.


Ideally the DNC would also be getting the Haste spell, and since spell versions don't stack, it's more like -15% DEF/15% Haste vs. -17-22% DEF/25% Haste for RDM and DNC respectively with either a RDM in the back for Haste/Dia III or at least a WHM to Haste/Dia II.

A lot of my high chain parties, where I was either RDM or a DD, though, Dia being present wasn't a problem, but rather available mobs. Killing too quickly expediates this issue, especially on something like Nyzul Mamools.

But I've also been saying for years that redundancy is part of our issue. You'll probably never see a RDM/DNC/WHM/BRD/COR/DD party because people will just claim there's not enough damage even though 5/6 could suit up to melee. Yet, dropping the WHM or DNC would probably be the first choice many would make to optimize the situation. The only reason I don't list RDM is because there are many who still foolishly believe RDMs have infinite MP without consideration for the performance of other party members. Either way, Haste from a RDM is the same as a Haste from a WHM. Same with Dia II. Same with Cures/Regens (WHM gear aside). Pair the redundancy with our lack of anything unique to encourage melee and we get where we've been for years. People haven't been wanting RDMs, they've been wanting WHMs with Chapeaus.

Seriously, I'd laugh my *** off if SE suddenly made it possible for RDM melee to boost EXP by 10-15% by meeting some simple criteria that can't be abused from the back. Even if our damage remains as is, you'd suddenly see people trying. Relic-holding math-mongers might not jump on it, but they're just a vocal minority that, unfortunately, does influence what players do thanks to herd mentality.
#74 Mar 13 2010 at 5:38 PM Rating: Default
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Seriha wrote:
ThePsychoticOne the Prohpet wrote:
-13% 5~7% def box step, 10% haste samba.

Huh. Weird. I could have swore rdm has -15% def, and 15% haste.


Ideally the DNC would also be getting the Haste spell, and since spell versions don't stack, it's more like -15% DEF/15% Haste vs. -17-22% DEF/25% Haste for RDM and DNC respectively with either a RDM in the back for Haste/Dia III or at least a WHM to Haste/Dia II.
Not sure why you would have both a rdm/whm, and a dnc.

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A lot of my high chain parties, where I was either RDM or a DD, though, Dia being present wasn't a problem, but rather available mobs. Killing too quickly expediates this issue, especially on something like Nyzul Mamools.
If you're losing chain because you're killing to fast, you go to MMJSP, and plow through the 500 mobs there.

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The only reason I don't list RDM is because there are many who still foolishly believe RDMs have infinite MP without consideration for the performance of other party members.
With 10~15/tic refresh, 8:20 vert, and aspir (assuming /sch, and not a dd sub, which assuming all dds are /sam, fulltiming hasso, is likely your best option), we pretty much do.

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Seriously, I'd laugh my *** off if SE suddenly made it possible for RDM melee to boost EXP by 10-15% by meeting some simple criteria that can't be abused from the back.
How about...by increasing exp for killing faster? Oh wait...
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#75 Mar 13 2010 at 6:14 PM Rating: Excellent
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ThePsychoticOne the Prohpet wrote:
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Seriously, I'd laugh my *** off if SE suddenly made it possible for RDM melee to boost EXP by 10-15% by meeting some simple criteria that can't be abused from the back.
How about...by increasing exp for killing faster? Oh wait...


Grats on falling for the trap.
#76 Mar 13 2010 at 6:15 PM Rating: Decent
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Seriha wrote:
ThePsychoticOne the Prohpet wrote:
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Seriously, I'd laugh my *** off if SE suddenly made it possible for RDM melee to boost EXP by 10-15% by meeting some simple criteria that can't be abused from the back.
How about...by increasing exp for killing faster? Oh wait...
Grats on falling for the trap.
Oh you.
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#77 Mar 13 2010 at 7:00 PM Rating: Good
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Not sure why you would have both a rdm/whm, and a dnc.


So you would prefer two RDMs (or RDM and WHM as was being suggested)?

DNC as a solo healer sucks. DNC + RDM or WHM is a nice team.
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#78 Mar 13 2010 at 7:02 PM Rating: Decent
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Isiolia wrote:
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Not sure why you would have both a rdm/whm, and a dnc.


So you would prefer two RDMs (or RDM and WHM as was being suggested)?

DNC as a solo healer sucks. DNC + RDM or WHM is a nice team.
Of course not. I'd take another dd (or support if i didn't already have brd and cor).

Edited, Mar 13th 2010 8:05pm by ThePsychoticOne
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#79 Mar 13 2010 at 7:19 PM Rating: Good
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Well, I dunno, I've done both really - DNC is certainly niche and limited in scope for where it's preferable to use...but I've seen demand/desire for it for the use I've mentioned. Some people use them in Einherjar setups w/ external healers as well.
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#80 Mar 13 2010 at 7:21 PM Rating: Decent
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Isiolia wrote:
Well, I dunno, I've done both really - DNC is certainly niche and limited in scope for where it's preferable to use...but I've seen demand/desire for it for the use I've mentioned. Some people use them in Einherjar setups w/ external healers as well.
Yeah, ein doesn't count, since you not only have mages outside that can haste/cure, they can also dia from outside the party.
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#81 Mar 13 2010 at 7:59 PM Rating: Good
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True, however, the general theme of that works with an in-party healer as well for meriting.

However, merits are merits though, lots of ways to get 25-30k/hr+

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#82 Mar 13 2010 at 8:21 PM Rating: Decent
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Isiolia wrote:
True, however, the general theme of that works with an in-party healer as well for meriting.
Except no, because an ideal ein party is something like dd x2-3, and the rest being brd, cor, dnc, etc. The only reason to have mages in dd parties in ein is because it's easier to cure someone in your party. Take a mage out of your party in a merit pt, and you lose dia, and unless you have a mule account to pl, you also lose haste.
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#83 Mar 13 2010 at 9:50 PM Rating: Good
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I mean more that you can use the effective 3x buffer like that, since 2x heavy DD, properly supported, is fine for merits. Like I said, I've done it, and it resulted in a 30k/hr party that still couldn't get pulls fast enough. /shrug
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