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#27 Mar 07 2010 at 1:46 PM Rating: Good
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Mohit wrote:
The problem in merit parties with melee rdms is like in my last 2 melee rdm parties.

The first one was rdm/rng and insisted on pulling. Slow cures, weak haste cycle that half the time was non-existent.

The other party with melee merit party rdm was a person that said the job is boring and was just trying to keep it interesting for merits. Slow cures again and weak haste cycle. This one had 2 deaths before we disbanded.

On birds, the risk of AOE or feeding TP is minimal. It really is about how well they can do their job and still melee.

I am aware there are probably many rdms that can do an excellent job and still melee but so far, just hasn't happened.


Most RDMs are terrible, since so many level the job for quick merit invites/getting into an endgame shell, but once the cap is 80, RDM/SCH will have Accession, meaning RDM will have a lot more "sitting around doing nothing" time. I can't imagine how hard you'd have to fail to have pulling out your sword not be a net gain. As long as you stay on top of Cures, your "cycles" take care of themselves (due to AoE buffs), you really have nothing else to do. (Obviously referring to Colibri here)
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#28 Mar 07 2010 at 1:47 PM Rating: Default
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Aliekber wrote:
Mohit wrote:
The problem in merit parties with melee rdms is like in my last 2 melee rdm parties.

The first one was rdm/rng and insisted on pulling. Slow cures, weak haste cycle that half the time was non-existent.

The other party with melee merit party rdm was a person that said the job is boring and was just trying to keep it interesting for merits. Slow cures again and weak haste cycle. This one had 2 deaths before we disbanded.

On birds, the risk of AOE or feeding TP is minimal. It really is about how well they can do their job and still melee.

I am aware there are probably many rdms that can do an excellent job and still melee but so far, just hasn't happened.


Most RDMs are terrible, since so many level the job for quick merit invites/getting into an endgame shell, but once the cap is 80, RDM/SCH will have Accession, meaning RDM will have a lot more "sitting around doing nothing" time. I can't imagine how hard you'd have to fail to have pulling out your sword not be a net gain. As long as you stay on top of Cures, your "cycles" take care of themselves (due to AoE buffs), you really have nothing else to do. (Obviously referring to Colibri here)
BUT ZOMG, HOW CAN YOU MELEE WITH /SCH!?!?!?
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#29 Mar 07 2010 at 2:02 PM Rating: Good
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ThePsychoticOne the Prohpet wrote:
Aliekber wrote:
Mohit wrote:
The problem in merit parties with melee rdms is like in my last 2 melee rdm parties.

The first one was rdm/rng and insisted on pulling. Slow cures, weak haste cycle that half the time was non-existent.

The other party with melee merit party rdm was a person that said the job is boring and was just trying to keep it interesting for merits. Slow cures again and weak haste cycle. This one had 2 deaths before we disbanded.

On birds, the risk of AOE or feeding TP is minimal. It really is about how well they can do their job and still melee.

I am aware there are probably many rdms that can do an excellent job and still melee but so far, just hasn't happened.


Most RDMs are terrible, since so many level the job for quick merit invites/getting into an endgame shell, but once the cap is 80, RDM/SCH will have Accession, meaning RDM will have a lot more "sitting around doing nothing" time. I can't imagine how hard you'd have to fail to have pulling out your sword not be a net gain. As long as you stay on top of Cures, your "cycles" take care of themselves (due to AoE buffs), you really have nothing else to do. (Obviously referring to Colibri here)
BUT ZOMG, HOW CAN YOU MELEE WITH /SCH AS RDM!?!?!?
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#30 Mar 07 2010 at 2:35 PM Rating: Good
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1) Again the question about RDM Melee is the role they take. Think less full time healer and more along the lines of a DNC's level of the support, and you get a better idea as to what a RDM in the front line does.

Expecting them to fully main heal and full buff while in the frontline is just setting a Red Mage up to fail. It's just not how this game or the job itself is built. It can do many things, but it can't do them all at once.

2) Sorry to take a snap at the RDM community, but I do believe they are over-estimating the power of /SCH. Even at level 49 with the ability to AoE our buffs, we only have access do 2 of that within a 4 minute timer. Nor do we know whether or not we're going to have additional restrictions added on that.

In the end with all the buffs we can spread, we're still going to wind up feeling as if we don't have enough charges to do it all with.


These two points really want to make me emphasis where exactly the player-base should be considering putting Red Mage into the party. And again I must reiterate the concept of "Front Line Support".

With /Sch there's no reason why you cannot have say a Red Mage and another "Main healer" in the group spreading buffs. Example: Red Mage uses his ascension buffs for an Enspell I and Haste, and places a corrisponding enspell II on himself to add to the accuracy of the whole. (Example, using EnBlizzard II on yourself and AoEing Enfire.) This gives an offensive bonus to the party as a whole while a healer can AoE Stoneskin and Regen, and with personal convert and refresh, (or a Refresh II from the Red Mage if it's coming) There's no reason why you cannot have all 5 characters (6 - a dedicated puller) Meleeing to the benefit of the party (except perhaps in the case of a Scholar, who can provide more buffs and damage to comphensate). All Cycles are covered, and AoE Buffs are more powerful when more players take advantage of it. Healing itself will be covered, and there's enough spare MP to go around not to worry about links or adds.


As far as updates to Red Mage itself. I'd like to either see an increase in Enhancing Skill rating or a third tier of Enspells that run off the old forumla. Though, perhaps "Enhancement Spell Damage" type merit might suffice in and of itself.

Just like last time I'm going to wait for things the settle (after the update) and then start a compilation thread as to what the next round of Red Mage updates could be. Keeping in mind the context of being useful in endgame as well as in parties.

Edited, Mar 7th 2010 3:36pm by Hyrist
#31 Mar 07 2010 at 2:36 PM Rating: Good
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I would put money on the possibility that the OP is an actual SE programmer.
#32 Mar 07 2010 at 2:56 PM Rating: Excellent
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Mohit wrote:
The problem in merit parties with melee rdms is like in my last 2 melee rdm parties.

The first one was rdm/rng and insisted on pulling. Slow cures, weak haste cycle that half the time was non-existent.

The other party with melee merit party rdm was a person that said the job is boring and was just trying to keep it interesting for merits. Slow cures again and weak haste cycle. This one had 2 deaths before we disbanded.

On birds, the risk of AOE or feeding TP is minimal. It really is about how well they can do their job and still melee.

I am aware there are probably many rdms that can do an excellent job and still melee but so far, just hasn't happened.


This point is largely lost in anti-melee rhetoric, but... what if the RDM is invited and NOT expected to main heal due the presence of a WHM, SCH, another RDM, or anyone else willing to heal? Yes, it is somewhat against the status quo for collibri whacking, but an argument could be made that if a RDM is never welcomed in this capacity in this situation, then it may very well be lacking and warrant enhancement. And no, the answer isn't to kick the WHM/SCH/2nd RDM/Whatever.

Personally, I won't be the slightest bit surprised if RDMs remain at T3 nukes, never go past Cure IV, and possibly get left off Haste II if it is given to WHMs. In terms of nukes, they're rarely used in EXP nowadays as is, and we do have to wrestle with resists on harder targets (to a lesser degree if /SCH). I also imagine BLMs getting T5s while SCHs get T2 Helices. Such creates a distinction amongst the nuking classes, and many already believe SCH to be what backline RDMs should be. In terms of Cures, keeping RDM at IV also a hint of exclusivity to it. WHMs will probably get VI along with another -aga and possibly Cura II. SCHs may get access to Cure V with Add: White. Finally, WHMs get Haste before RDMs anyway. We've had years of WHMs threatened by RDM's presence and preference, then a little scare with SCH, but WHM's update did help them tremendously, but not entirely shake things up in the grand scheme of merit grinding. Restricting RDM access not only gives WHM an edge people would desire, but it also pre-nerfs some RDM soloing before it could even happen. That's been SE's MO for a while.

So, what's left? Give the job nothing and let it wallow in mediocrity? Eh, it could happen, but I'd prefer it not to. Yet, I'd also like to remind people that SE had said recently that, in order to realize a job's concept, they were willing to overpower it a little. We're at that point. Just look at DRK. SE said they want them using their magic more. Sure, a lot of DRKs probably don't give a **** now because using it hurts their melee game, but that doesn't mean SE can't change that. If Absorb-STR suddenly added 1% WS Damage for every point of STR remaining, you bet they'd be casting it. Alternatively, if RDM melee suddenly meant 5-10% more EXP/hr, people might be more willing to accept it. It's all about incentives, and for the moment, people pointing out that there are none despite violations of job concept in current roles.

I really hope 76+ becomes a different game for every job. Because if we just fall back into the same routines with 24 more levels under our belt, I'd consider the cap increase a failure.
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#33 Mar 08 2010 at 6:23 AM Rating: Decent
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SlashAnonymous wrote:
I just recently thought of an interesting JA idea that somewhat still sticks to the flavor of RDM while helping our melee and casting in a way that won't break the job.

Double Cast - Job Ability
Red Mage - Level 80
Recast: 0:00:15
Duration: 1 eligible spell not cast on the target or 0:01:00, whichever occurs first
Target: 1 player or allied NPC.
The next Healing or Enhancing White or Black magic spell you cast will also affect the selected a party member. The MP cost of that spell is doubled.

Automatically cuts our cycle casting in half. Gives us some way of casting our self targeting spells on other people besides /sch. Still stays with the flavor of Rdm being a fast caster and not an AoE caster.


I like mine better, I came up with it a few years ago and it's much simpler(very easy to make as all the code already exists):
Double Cast - Job Ability
Red Mage - Level 60
Recast: 0:03:00
Duration: 0:01:00 or until a spell is cast
Target: Self only
The next spell has a recast of 0.
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#34 Mar 08 2010 at 7:01 AM Rating: Decent
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Quote:

I like mine better, I came up with it a few years ago and it's much simpler(very easy to make as all the code already exists):
Double Cast - Job Ability
Red Mage - Level 60
Recast: 0:03:00
Duration: 0:01:00 or until a spell is cast
Target: Self only
The next spell has a recast of 0.


That doesn't do anything to give you more time in parties though. You'll still have to cast just as much, just at different times. I like the first idea suggested.
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#35 Mar 08 2010 at 10:28 AM Rating: Decent
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I just think that alot of players don't allow the RDM to melee. They just only want the RDM to be a healer.
#36 Mar 08 2010 at 11:46 AM Rating: Decent
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Right but has rdm in the past had the tools to be a competitive dd and sufficient alternative to SAM, DRG, MNK, etc. No. Lol

The whole point of something like this would be to allow a rdm to fine tune into a competitive DD (JAs, spells, gear, and skill) and not a multi-tasking front liner. As soon as you buffing, healing, while meleeing your DPS drops significantly.

When a rdm is /melee they should be able to fill a DD slot if
the focus solely on that role. (which means they're not multi-tasking heals for a whole group and being OP, or gimp dps )

When a rdm is /caster they should be able to fill the caster role (heals, or nuke/buffs).
#37 Mar 08 2010 at 12:08 PM Rating: Decent
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I hope the RDM job becomes stronger in the melee dept.
#38 Mar 08 2010 at 2:52 PM Rating: Excellent
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Hyrist wrote:
1) Again the question about RDM Melee is the role they take. Think less full time healer and more along the lines of a DNC's level of the support, and you get a better idea as to what a RDM in the front line does.

Expecting them to fully main heal and full buff while in the frontline is just setting a Red Mage up to fail. It's just not how this game or the job itself is built. It can do many things, but it can't do them all at once.

This man has it right.

Seriously, the arguments I'm seeing here are like from 2005-2007.
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#39 Mar 09 2010 at 12:28 AM Rating: Good
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I'm still baffled why people are trying to compare RDM to the full time DD jobs like WAR / SAM / MNK / DRG? The fact we have cure IV and convert immediately means we gotta have less melee potential, or else you'd just have parties of RDM's running around. I like how we're currently setup, just wish for better high end gear, and more nifty JA / JT that enhances our melee potential (at the expense of some versatility).
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#40 Mar 09 2010 at 7:03 AM Rating: Excellent
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saevellakshmi wrote:
or else you'd just have parties of RDM's running around.

Has anyone actually tried this? I'm thinking six self-sufficient players with competent builds can probably steamroll a lot of things out there. Maybe mix it up slightly with a PUP and/or DNC and just have one person support one other(not like you'll need six people throwing dia)...
#41 Mar 09 2010 at 7:11 AM Rating: Good
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Xauna wrote:
Has anyone actually tried this? I'm thinking six self-sufficient players with competent builds can probably steamroll a lot of things out there. Maybe mix it up slightly with a PUP and/or DNC and just have one person support one other(not like you'll need six people throwing dia)...
It's been my dream to try that since before Composure's introduction, honestly. It's just been tough finding RDMs that didn't level specifically for events or even bother to have gear that isn't centered around staff usage.



Edited, Mar 9th 2010 5:11am by SunriderRagnarok
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#42 Mar 09 2010 at 12:55 PM Rating: Excellent
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saevellakshmi wrote:
I'm still baffled why people are trying to compare RDM to the full time DD jobs like WAR / SAM / MNK / DRG? The fact we have cure IV and convert immediately means we gotta have less melee potential, or else you'd just have parties of RDM's running around. I like how we're currently setup, just wish for better high end gear, and more nifty JA / JT that enhances our melee potential (at the expense of some versatility).


I've been saying this for years, but damage is the lazy way for SE to pull things off. The problem with us getting fancy with utility is, as of now, people get by fine without it. Short of it becoming something others suddenly realize they can't live without, we're still stuck having to melee solo and whatnot. As much as I dislike /DNC as a RDM sub, DNC mains also have their own problems with invites.

I'm not really sold on give/take abilities, either. Sucking up our black magic for melee, for example, basically invalidates our presence as an SC opener and subsequent MBer. Sure, that play style isn't popular anymore, but I still stand behind the fact that SE designed us with that in mind and Convert being what would let us stay upright and not lose TP. People just perverted that into the main healer role. At this point, I'd kinda laugh if they went and tied TP into Convert, making 300% the only way to get 100% conversion rates. Or mayber shortened the timer by 2 minutes for every 100% you had.

Edited, Mar 9th 2010 1:57pm by Seriha
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#43 Mar 09 2010 at 1:25 PM Rating: Default
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Xauna wrote:
saevellakshmi wrote:
or else you'd just have parties of RDM's running around.

Has anyone actually tried this? I'm thinking six self-sufficient players with competent builds can probably steamroll a lot of things out there. Maybe mix it up slightly with a PUP and/or DNC and just have one person support one other(not like you'll need six people throwing dia)...
Well, you could certainly get decent exp, but you obviously wouldn't compete with a good party that included "real" dds.

Edited, Mar 9th 2010 2:25pm by ThePsychoticOne
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#44 Mar 09 2010 at 1:53 PM Rating: Excellent
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saevellakshmi wrote:
or else you'd just have parties of RDM's running around.


You know, everyone says this, but I really don't think it's true.

SCH is a "better" nuker than BLM, yet BLM still gets used all the time.

RDM/NIN is comparable to (when it's not just straight-up better than) PLD/NIN as a tank on virtually everything, yet RDMs (with tanking builds!) are relegated to healing regardless of this.

SAM is SE's golden child, but DRG WAR and DRK don't get left out of DD slots (1-handers are a different story ;_;).

Even if RDM had the same DD output as SAM (i.e. not the best once you start including non-AH gear, but easy to get good damage out of at the low end), it would still be asked to heal "because SAM isn't good for anything but damage, and RDM is a good healer".
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#45 Mar 09 2010 at 2:07 PM Rating: Excellent
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Rdm, Rdm, Rdm, Rdm, Brd, Brd

could theoretically do the same damage as

DD, DD, DD, Healer, Brd, Brd

IF the Rdms can do 75% of the DDs damage.
(good luck getting 2 bards and 4 RDMs with melee gear to try that XD)

Edited, Mar 9th 2010 3:08pm by SlashAnonymous
#46 Mar 09 2010 at 2:10 PM Rating: Default
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SlashAnonymous wrote:
Rdm, Rdm, Rdm, Rdm, Brd, Brd

could theoretically do the same damage as

DD, DD, DD, Healer, Brd, Brd

IF the Rdms can do 75% of the DDs damage.
(good luck getting 2 bards and 4 RDMs with melee gear to try that XD)
You're assuming the healer isn't doing any damage.
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#47 Mar 09 2010 at 2:12 PM Rating: Excellent
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ThePsychoticOne the Prohpet wrote:
Well, you could certainly get decent exp, but you obviously wouldn't compete with a good party that included "real" dds.

I feel that at a minimum such a setup would be perfectly comparable to pickup merit PTs that use your "real DDs" build(applying the same "real DDs" build to a group of friends or respectable LS mates would probably be a whole other ballgame).
#48 Mar 09 2010 at 2:17 PM Rating: Default
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Xauna wrote:
ThePsychoticOne the Prohpet wrote:
Well, you could certainly get decent exp, but you obviously wouldn't compete with a good party that included "real" dds.

I feel that at a minimum such a setup would be perfectly comparable to pickup merit PTs that use your "real DDs" build(applying the same "real DDs" build to a group of friends or respectable LS mates would probably be a whole other ballgame).
Well, that depends on the calibur of your average pickup parties. Mine have usually averaged 20~25k/hr. Surely rdm x4-5, support x1-2 could get at least 20k/hr, and probably a bit more if they were really good, but i doubt you'd see the 30k/hr that some parties manage.

After being in multiple 70k/hr+ parties, it feels so odd calling 20k/hr decent now Smiley: frown
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#49 Mar 09 2010 at 2:23 PM Rating: Excellent
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ThePsychoticOne the Prohpet wrote:
Well, that depends on the calibur of your average pickup parties. Mine have usually averaged 20~25k/hr. Surely rdm x4-5, support x1-2 could get at least 20k/hr, and probably a bit more if they were really good, but i doubt you'd see the 30k/hr that some parties manage.

I don't think I've ever been in a merit party that has reached 20k/hr that was a pickup.

I do think 30k/hr might be possible though provided everyone works together well, in a BRDx2 scenario, and of course very good gear all around. (Though when you start getting that specific, it becomes so much easier to get a DD party instead.)

Quote:
After being in multiple 70k/hr+ parties, it feels so odd calling 20k/hr decent now Smiley: frown

I wish I had a SMN burn static, or even just enough people who know how to do it :/ I even have a SMN for the job!

hey, wait, garuda is merging into my server soon... hmm!
#50 Mar 09 2010 at 2:42 PM Rating: Decent
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Xauna wrote:
ThePsychoticOne the Prohpet wrote:
Well, that depends on the calibur of your average pickup parties. Mine have usually averaged 20~25k/hr. Surely rdm x4-5, support x1-2 could get at least 20k/hr, and probably a bit more if they were really good, but i doubt you'd see the 30k/hr that some parties manage.

I don't think I've ever been in a merit party that has reached 20k/hr that was a pickup.
...Really? When was the last time you joined a pickup merit pt? Probably 75% of the ones i've been in have got at least 20k/hr, and most of the rest i left pretty quickly, because they couldn't even manage 15k/hr. 25k/hr isn't very common with pickup parties (excluding the ones i had with me on kcrng Smiley: grin), but also isn't all that rare. Of course i stopped meriting for more than an hour or so at a time a long time ago, because i find that by then people start getting lazy, run out of food, etc, and exp starts dropping, so that could be a factor. In total i've probably had 3-4 30k/hr pickup parties over the years, one of which was ~35k/hr, with 2 brd, cor, 3 very good dds, and an outside rdm, though the other 2-3 were regular 6 person parties.


Quote:
I do think 30k/hr might be possible though provided everyone works together well, in a BRDx2 scenario, and of course very good gear all around. (Though when you start getting that specific, it becomes so much easier to get a DD party instead.)
Brd x2 is kind of silly, when there's cor. I have to say i'm a bit skeptical of 30k/hr with 4 rdms. I would be extremely impressed if you pulled that off.

Quote:
Quote:
After being in multiple 70k/hr+ parties, it feels so odd calling 20k/hr decent now Smiley: frown

I wish I had a SMN burn static, or even just enough people who know how to do it :/ I even have a SMN for the job!
Chigoe burns actually. Best i've managed myself with smn burns was ~50k/hr, and usually only ended up with around 40k/hr, because we usually didn't have a cor main.

Smn burns cap off at around 60k/hr, while the chigoe burns my ls does get around 70~85k/hr (can get 85k/hr, but it drops down to ~60k/hr, quickly as the sync gets higher, and going from 51->57 usually averages to around 70k/hr, though if we repped syncs more often, could easily average 80k/hr). My group has a kc pl (has speed belt, turban, dusk+1, dusk+1, nashira for 35% total haste), a joyeuse pl (not sure what his gear is like), and a rdm healbot. With a second kc, 4 blms, and good sync job (ie rdm/cor), i would imagine 90~100k/hr is possible, though not much more than that would be possible due to mp, even with 3x kc.

Edited, Mar 9th 2010 3:43pm by ThePsychoticOne
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#51 Mar 09 2010 at 3:20 PM Rating: Excellent
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ThePsychoticOne the Prohpet wrote:
...Really? When was the last time you joined a pickup merit pt?

tbh it has been about a year since I last got into a pickup that wasn't at least partially comprised of my socials. :/ And since I know that's pretty bad, I've just been discouraged from it all around given how much stress I get put through.

Quote:
Brd x2 is kind of silly, when there's cor. I have to say i'm a bit skeptical of 30k/hr with 4 rdms. I would be extremely impressed if you pulled that off.

I dunno. BRDx2 would allow for more haste, which means enspells, as well as acc or attack(whichever the party happens to be needing more). Granted that's the case for ordinary merit parties, so I am just repeating what you no doubt considered... COR would work just as well for attack or whatever though, I'm sure. I'm not entirely familiar with them as a whole so I never really consider what they can do.

Quote:
Chigoe burns actually.

I dunno if I've ever even heard of one of those on my server. :/



you never saw an incorrect get in this post >:/

Edited, Mar 9th 2010 4:22pm by Xauna
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