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Newb Question: Which Debuff Spells?Follow

#1 Dec 05 2009 at 11:14 AM Rating: Excellent
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Hello RDM Forum. I am a new player on Titan and have come to thoroughly enjoy my role as an RDM. But UNLIKE the recent (hilarious) rant from the "Bannable Offenses" blog (Rage of the Red Mages), I have actually not received much advice from party members on how to do my job. So I thought I would seek the advice of people experienced with the job.

Specifically, I am wondering which debuff spells are best to use. Which debuff spells do you typically use in XP party battles? I checked the RDM FAQ sticky and it did not seem to specifically address this question (please correct me if I'm wrong!)

I understand a lot of this is situational and dependent on the element of the debuff spells (yadda yadda monster is strong against yadda yadda element so you shouldn't use yadda yadda spell), but I was hoping just for some general advice on how to go about figuring out which debuff spells work best and/or which work best on certain types of monsters.

Dia seems to be an obvious winner from past discussions on this board, but are there any other debuffs that are MUST USE?

If you need my situational details, I am currently leveling a level 21 RDM/WHM at Valkurm Dunes, and spending time in party battles against Snippers, Damselflies, various Goblins, Brutal Sheep, and Beach Pugils.

Thanks in advance for your advice/input!
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#2Princess ThePsychoticOne, Posted: Dec 05 2009 at 11:33 AM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) You should never need any debuffs other than dia. Slow and para may occasionally be useful for ****** parties fighting IT++ mobs, without a tp burn setup, but then i would just avoid those parties anyway, since they are not worth the time/effort.
#3 Dec 05 2009 at 11:40 AM Rating: Good
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I'd say pick paralyze or slow if you do not have mp trouble. Paralyze is only 6 mp iirc, so its not too expensive. If the tank is struggling against the mob you should put up enfeebles, but I can't imagine that will happen often.

One thing to note is silence for worms when/if you go to qufim island.

It will help you cap enfeebling skill as you level if nothing else.
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#4Renowaikk the Meaningless, Posted: Dec 05 2009 at 11:49 AM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) Dia is the most important as you already said. Slow is garbage, para is great if you have the mp. I just took scholar to 37, and I found para proc`d a lot. Blind is ok if you have an abundance of mp, however be careful, blind generates a lot of hate. Half a provoke iirc.
#5 Dec 05 2009 at 1:08 PM Rating: Good
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hmmm, shouldnt he just use all of them?

As a nin tank i know i loved every debuff i could get from my mages. Of course i can use mine too, and while leveling i sure did for advantage aspect and also for hate. But if i get resisted at start there is nothing like the help on debuff from a pro debuffer.

Blind for one was the best debuff a nin could get. More so now with Yonin.

So i might add that which debuff you will be using depends on your tank. If it is pld you cant stick with para and slow. If its a nin you might wanna talk with him and check which debuffs he wants to do. But in the case he gets resisted try to back him up cause nin recast is 30/45 secs.

Surely this can be tough if you are main healing around the lvl you are right now. But are you really main healing on those lvls? Most likely you will have a whm partner or a PL. At lvl 41 you should be more than fine anyway.
#6 Dec 05 2009 at 1:14 PM Rating: Excellent
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Renowaikk the Meaningless wrote:
Blind is ok if you have an abundance of mp, however be careful, blind generates a lot of hate. Half a provoke iirc.


It's just over a third of a provoke (640 VE). Given the curing you're probably also doing, it's probably enough to get you into trouble every once in a while.
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#7 Dec 05 2009 at 2:13 PM Rating: Excellent
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It generally depends. While Slow might not reduce a ton of damage, it makes the tank's life noticeably easier. That's assuming you have a decent tank that pays attention to the mob's swings, and casts between them.

Paralyze is nice, and even with just 1 proc it saves you mp from having to cure. Personally, it's not worth going out of my way to cast, I generally only do so if I'm already standing and waiting on timers (pre-birds, of course).

Blind can do more harm than good. It is a high-hate spell, and is rarely worth putting yourself higher on the hate list. It might help a little with ninja tanks pre-30, but hopefully they are already casting their ninjutsu version of blind.

When you get there, gravity lowers evasion by 10. While useful, it is rarely worth the mp and time cost. Cast it if you have nothing better to do, but it is rarely used in exp pts.

And, of course, dia is just brilliant. Should be cast on everything you don't intent to sleep. Reminder: bio overwrites dia, and shouldn't be used.

Also, you should be moving to qufim soon, for the lvl 19-24 range. At the earlier levels, you fight worms which need to be silenced right away.
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#8 Dec 05 2009 at 5:10 PM Rating: Excellent
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Something from the Dia series should be a given on nearly anything. If it helps, consider it giving your party an ATT boost roughly the same as the Dia's DEF down (5%, 10%, 15% for I, II, and III respectively). It's actually typically worth a tad more than that...regardless, a very good bonus for mobs your group is meleeing.

As mentioned, Bio spells on par or above a given Dia spell tier will remove/preempt it. Those are not normally cast in XP.

Gravity is a good one, particularly low level, if your MP can support it as the cost can add up. The status of "weight" that Gravity inflicts noticeably slows movement speed, but it also lowers evasion (by 10, according to tests).

Paralyze and Slow series are good if you've got harder mobs - they're a given for NMs, endgame fights, etc if they will stick - the catch with a lot of XP fights is that you ideally will be chopping through mobs too fast for them to really matter. One caveat is that if you have a blink tank (NIN or /NIN), Slowing a mob is very beneficial, though a NIN may be casting Hojo themselves.

Blind is pretty meh for XP. If you're fighting an NM with a job that has good evasion (THF, NIN, DNC, MNK, etc), then it's good to use. In XP, evasion is rarely the way to go for them, and without gearing heavily for it, it sucks. As mentioned, if you want to help a blink tank, slow the mob.

Silence is basically a given if the mob can cast.

Poison is probably not a big deal to use in XP, as the DoT won't have much of a chance to do much. In longer fights though, it'll add up, and may be worth tossing out.

Another very important thing once you get it is Dispel. Many of the self-buff moves that mobs use are worth getting rid of in short order - some of them can significantly reduce damage - so get used to firing that off quickly.

Edited, Dec 5th 2009 6:15pm by Isiolia
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#9 Dec 05 2009 at 5:20 PM Rating: Excellent
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Never ignore Slow and Paralyze in any group under 74. Don't care what the TP burn nuts tell you, it can make your life easier if they actually know what "recast shadows" means. I'd still use Slow in merits just because having people hasted means it's more time the colibri wastes parroting you and not killing the guy who DOESN'T understand what defenses are.

Blind is only really useful if you have a NIN tank, but they should be casting their version to help themselves tank.

Gravity's timer is kind of prohibitive, and if your melees need it to hit, they're eating the wrong food.

Dia is usually a no-brainer, but I wouldn't always call it needed.
#10 Dec 05 2009 at 8:20 PM Rating: Good
What Seriha said. When leveling both RDM and WHM to 75, I always made sure the mob had Dia, Slow and Paralyze on it.
I almost always passed on casting Blind, since PLD's generally won't notice a difference, and NIN's have their own version which help with their enmity generation.

Gravity can be helpful vs. high evasion mobs like Beetles, but like others have said, it can be costly to use it on every 1-2 mobs.

You'll get the most complaints if you miss Dispel on mobs that have a defensive buff.

Oh, and you'll want to keep an eye out for links, or aggro that your parties occasionally get. Be ready to Sleep those.

Edited, Dec 5th 2009 7:23pm by Kirby
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#11 Dec 06 2009 at 1:13 AM Rating: Decent
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I'd say Dia is always useful lv1-75. Slow is our 2nd best enfeeble overall and should be used exclusively in non-TP burn parties. Our 3rd most useful enfeeble is Dispel, however it's not as useful in parties because of the colibri craze. However should you find yourself in a party fighting crabs, crawlers, or beetles, Dispel is very helpful. Silence is useful if you're fighting mage mobs.

Poison isn't worth it ever in a party situation. Blind isn't bad if you have a NIN tank, but Slow is more useful. Bio should never be used over Dia in a party. The reason being the mob loses -10%def(Dia II) so that every person whacking on the mob benefits compared to Bio II's -10% ATK down that typically only affects the tank. Slow is much more useful in helping the tank. Gravity is good in a pinch if your melee are whiffing a lot, but otherwise I'd say no. Gravity typically doesn't last long enough to be worth the mp cost plus it's useless on colibri which is what most people fight.

In recapping, use Dia I/II and Slow often. Paralyze isn't useless, but it's not as useful as Dia and Slow. Use Dispel and Silence as needed. Forget the other enfeebles in party situations. If your party is mage heavy, you may include Paralyze and Gravity in your enfeebling rotation. If not, conserve your mp accordingly.

Edited, Dec 6th 2009 1:23am by ShadowedgeFFXI
#12 Dec 06 2009 at 1:48 PM Rating: Good
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When I was leveling RDM lo those many years ago the order I always went with was:
Dia (of whatever level)- damage taken by the mob speeds up kills and is guaranteed

Slow - damage reduction from slow is a guaranteed % over time
(Edit: I may not have emphasized this enough - Slow should always be your second debuff, it is guaranteedItalic Text damage reduction no matter what kind of tank you have, this buff is (to my mind) the most important to have on at all times. NIN will thank you because they can get shadows back up and WHM will thank you because they will be healing less and can concentrate on other buffs.

Paralyze/Silence - if the mob is a caster type Silence comes first, if not Paralyze (build a MND set around this spell and macro it in for the best effect possible)

Blind - it's a large spike in hate but by this point the tank should have hate under control and it shouldn't be a problem

Anything beyond that is gravy (and likely unnecessary as the mob will likely be nearly dead). Remember, after 41 you will be working these spells into a regular Refresh (and after 48 Haste) cycle and you often won't have time to cast anything beyond Dia and Slow.

In a merit party all this is moot but from your sig. you're a ways off from TP burn/merit parties. This order worked for me all the way to the high 60s when TP burns, solo healing, and /WHM became mandatory (I was a heretic and went /BLM for most of my RDM leveling experience).

All of these things are, of course, situational. If your tank can't keep hate off you when casting Blind, skip it.
Dispel should be used every time a mob uses certain buffs (Berserk is actually a pretty good one to leave up, it just enhances damage taken and allows for a faster kill.

Bind in those rare situations where you have no choice but to pull hate and know it before hand (it will likely wear very quickly and only provide a brief respite).

Gravity I always had mixed feelings about. Some parties wanted it on every mob but they generally didn't understand its (relatively) high MP cost and very long recast time. The fact is I never found it very useful in party situations.


Poison and Bio, as stated in above posts are pretty useless in XP parties and should be skipped altogether.

One reason I personally liked /BLM while leveling was for the elemental enfeeble line. Each one hurts a specific attribute and can emphasize a particular mob weakness or blunt a strength. These may not be huge differences but (again like everything in this game) situationaly they can make a noticeable difference.

Edited, Dec 6th 2009 2:58pm by SlaxLeary
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#13 Dec 06 2009 at 2:00 PM Rating: Good
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It depends what kind of party you're in. Dia/Dia II will always be top priority. If the fights aren't going really quickly, slow. If the DDs and/or tank are still having issues, paralyze. Blind is useless unless you have an evasion NIN, and if you do, sorry to hear that.

Any other enfeebles are not worth mention, except dispel, and you should know exactly when you need to use that anyway.



Edited, Dec 6th 2009 2:04pm by bsphil
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#14 Dec 06 2009 at 4:14 PM Rating: Default
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bsphil wrote:
If the fights aren't going really quickly, slow. If the DDs and/or tank are still having issues, paralyze. Blind is useless unless you have an evasion NIN, and if you do, sorry to hear that.


I wouldn't say an evasion NIN is a bad thing. In the early levels, using Drone or evasion earrings over Beetle earrings(ATK) isn't going to increase your damage output much anyways. Later on when NIN gets to wear a Hauby, the birds don't miss regardless of your evasion and it's better to focus on damage for hate holding reasons. The thing I noticed most when I leveled NIN was how crippled the mob would be with Elegy and Slow on it. I often never even used Ichi and held hate just fine because of it. More Dot, less time recasting shadows/shedding enmity.

That all being true, Blind can be useful for NIN tanks. You'll rarely use it in parties because you'll most likely be stuck main healing anyways. The only thing I want the OP to consider here is that Bsphil's comments aren't accurate for your entire leveling experience. Sometimes a turtle PLD and evasion NIN are better pre Lv55 camps. On birds, cast Dia and Slow and leave it at that. NIN's should be trying to use their own blind spell anyways. One last thing, Slow I and Blind I don't stack with NIN's Blind and Slow tools, only BRD songs stack.

Flashback:
I remembered a retro moment from my days of leveling RDM in 2004. Back in Bibiki Bay, I remembered partying with a tank, 2 melee DD's, a WHM and BLM, and myself. Well because of the way parties were in those old days, the DD's would make skill chains for the BLM to burst. This usually stole hate and caused bad things to happen. You guys probably remember, the blm steals hate and the tank and DD run around after it. So what I did on dhamels was to time my use of Gravity to right before the SC was going off. That way, when the dhamel shifted hate to the blm, the melee could beat on it without it running away thus saving the BLM's life. :P The BLM in those days were insane and seemed to believe that unless they pulled hate, they weren't doing their job. Gravity gave the illusion that the tank was holding hate on those MB's. Of course I often nuked in parties back in those days too. I just felt I'd share an old school moment on enfeebling tricks.

Edited, Dec 6th 2009 4:17pm by ShadowedgeFFXI
#15 Dec 06 2009 at 4:20 PM Rating: Default
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Sometimes a turtle PLD and evasion NIN are better pre Lv55 camps.

No it is not. You can get 10k+/hr with tp burn parties as early as 20ish.
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#16 Dec 06 2009 at 5:11 PM Rating: Good
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Does this 10K/hr rely on a PL? In a standard party set-up (which given the OPs level I think most of us are addressing) that isn't TP burning (which only works in certain situations at such a low level) the advice given I think is sound.

Please for the love of the FSM let's not train another new player in the level sync TP burn mindset from an early level. Let the OP learn how the job (and the game)is played so when and if he gets to endgame he at least has some idea of how hate management works and isn't another Astral Burn, gimp skill fool. Just my perspective on this question, let's teach him how these spells work and how/when to use them, not just tell him they're all worthless and the only thing he needs to know is hast/refresh/heal.
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#17 Dec 06 2009 at 5:20 PM Rating: Decent
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SlaxLeary wrote:
Does this 10K/hr rely on a PL? In a standard party set-up (which given the OPs level I think most of us are addressing) that isn't TP burning (which only works in certain situations at such a low level) the advice given I think is sound.

No. It relies on fighting t-vt mobs, with a brd/cor, and people actually using gear+food.

Quote:
Please for the love of the FSM let's not train another new player in the level sync TP burn mindset from an early level. Let the OP learn how the job (and the game)is played so when and if he gets to endgame he at least has some idea of how hate management works and isn't another Astral Burn, gimp skill fool. Just my perspective on this question, let's teach him how these spells work and how/when to use them, not just tell him they're all worthless and the only thing he needs to know is hast/refresh/heal.

You say that as if ffxi is the hardest game ever, and if you do not spend months playing 75 levels at 5k/hr, you will never learn the basic functions of the job. A competent person can easily learn all the basics and get them down in under a week. Anyone who cannot do that, probably would not have been a very good player regardless of how they got 75.
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#18 Dec 06 2009 at 7:09 PM Rating: Good
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ThePsychoticOne the Prohpet wrote:

No it is not. You can get 10k+/hr with tp burn parties as early as 20ish.


Did I say those parties were TP burns? Nope. In a regular non-TP burn PUG, my original point stands. That being said, I wish I had the luck you seem you have with XP parties. But remember Rog, just like those infomercials, your results may vary :P
#19 Dec 06 2009 at 7:24 PM Rating: Default
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ShadowedgeFFXI wrote:
ThePsychoticOne the Prohpet wrote:

No it is not. You can get 10k+/hr with tp burn parties as early as 20ish.


Did I say those parties were TP burns? Nope. In a regular non-TP burn PUG, my original point stands. That being said, I wish I had the luck you seem you have with XP parties. But remember Rog, just like those infomercials, your results may vary :P

Except turtle plds/eva nins are only good decent acceptable in the worst of pt setups. You are always better off getting a dd (or i suppose dd pld/nin, but that really is not ideal either..) and fighting the right mobs than fighting IT++ mobs with a turtle pld/dd nin.

Technically, sure, there are situations that could be improved by a turtle pld/eva nin, but if you are in that situation to begin with, you obviously do not care about improving anything, because if you did, you would avoid that situation like the plague.
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#20 Dec 06 2009 at 7:25 PM Rating: Decent
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In a regular non-TP burn PUG

I am also going to have to insist that we start calling those parties "2004 parties" or something to that affect, instead of "regular" parties. It is no longer 2004, and tp burn parties ARE the standard.
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#21 Dec 06 2009 at 8:30 PM Rating: Decent
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ShadowedgeFFXI wrote:
bsphil wrote:
If the fights aren't going really quickly, slow. If the DDs and/or tank are still having issues, paralyze. Blind is useless unless you have an evasion NIN, and if you do, sorry to hear that.


I wouldn't say an evasion NIN is a bad thing. In the early levels, using Drone or evasion earrings over Beetle earrings(ATK) isn't going to increase your damage output much anyways.
Actually, a pair of Beetle Earring +1s at low levels makes a significantly LARGER difference than later on.
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#22 Dec 06 2009 at 8:57 PM Rating: Good
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There is some really bad advice in this thread. The OP isn't asking about merit parties nor illusionary 350000xp/hr qufim parties. The question deals with standard build low/mid-level parties (tank, 3xDD, 2xsupport normally is the standard these days.)

Cast your de-buffs. It's that simple, dia/para/slow and stack on as much MND as you can for para/slow. Nothing has changed since 2003 when some of us started.

Roast Mushroom/Witch Kabob are very good foods to eat. Both give +MP/MND and MP recovered while resting. These will last you for quite awhile.

Once at 32 you will get Dispel. Do not skip this spell! (As a matter of fact, don't skip any spells.)

A short list of moves you'll want to use this on:

Crawler
Cocoon - grants defense boost to the mob.

Crab
Scissor Guard - grants defense boost to the mob.
Bubble Curtain - grants Shell to the mob.

Beetle
Rhino Guard - grants an evasion bonus to the mob.

Skeleton
Ice Spikes - Mage type only, causes paralyze.

On the topic of sleeping links/adds, be sure to stack on INT when casting Sleep to reduce resist rates.

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#23 Dec 06 2009 at 9:34 PM Rating: Default
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klausneck wrote:
There is some really bad advice in this thread. The OP isn't asking about merit parties nor illusionary 350000xp/hr qufim parties. The question deals with standard build low/mid-level parties (tank, 3xDD, 2xsupport normally is the standard these days.)

Just because it is the "standard" does not make it the best. There is no reason anyone should ever need a tank for exping.

Quote:
Nothing has changed since 2003 when some of us started.

Meh, some things have changed. Technically level sync did not change anything, but it does make it much, much more likely that you will get an idealish party setup, and also lets you stay at the better camps longer. Other than that, and a few other minor things, you are right, not much has changed. Oh, also the playerbase is not nearly as retarded as we used to be.

Quote:
Crawler
Cocoon - grants defense boost to the mob.

Crab
Scissor Guard - grants defense boost to the mob.
Bubble Curtain - grants Shell to the mob.

Beetle
Rhino Guard - grants an evasion bonus to the mob.

Skeleton
Ice Spikes - Mage type only, causes paralyze.

See, this is the problem. Crabs? WHY THE **** WOULD YOU FIGHT PLD/PLD MOBS, WITH A DEF+ WS, IN A GAME WHERE KILLING FASTER IS ALL THAT MATTERS? WHY!? And lets not forget skeles with their drainga, and -12.5% slashing, and -50% piercing damage! GENIUS!
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#24 Dec 06 2009 at 10:51 PM Rating: Excellent
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Hey Rog,

Try to remember back...while you were in the lower levels, were you ever doing something other than xping that might require you to fight bones/crabs/etc. **** that doesn't make ideal xp mobs. **** you didn't have to bot or use some app to get your way, er kill. Way to cloud the issue with useless ranting.

Its silly advice like you gave that gets people to end-game with extremely uncapped enfeeb. skill and never casting a de-buff. All they know is haste+haste+haste+haste+refresh+cure since you are teaching them "Meritting is the only thing you'll do...ever." You of all people here know the importance of enfeeb. magic, yet you are telling new players it's not worth the effort to cast it? If they're not casting now, do you honestly think they will cast it later? ********

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#25 Dec 07 2009 at 2:54 AM Rating: Excellent
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ThePsychoticOne the Prohpet wrote:
Quote:
Nothing has changed since 2003 when some of us started.

Meh, some things have changed. Technically level sync did not change anything, but it does make it much, much more likely that you will get an idealish party setup, and also lets you stay at the better camps longer. Other than that, and a few other minor things, you are right, not much has changed. Oh, also the playerbase is not nearly as retarded as we used to be.

Quote:
Crawler
Cocoon - grants defense boost to the mob.

Crab
Scissor Guard - grants defense boost to the mob.
Bubble Curtain - grants Shell to the mob.

Beetle
Rhino Guard - grants an evasion bonus to the mob.

Skeleton
Ice Spikes - Mage type only, causes paralyze.

See, this is the problem. Crabs? WHY THE @#%^ WOULD YOU FIGHT PLD/PLD MOBS, WITH A DEF+ WS, IN A GAME WHERE KILLING FASTER IS ALL THAT MATTERS? WHY!? And lets not forget skeles with their drainga, and -12.5% slashing, and -50% piercing damage! GENIUS!


This.

We haven't changed as much as people like to think, on the whole. Parties still fight crabs, beetles and other PLD-type, non-DA-ing mobs (because they're "easier" to tank) even though they have high def and eva/def/stoneskin/pro/shell buffs. While this was great in the old SC/MB days, it sucks now for optimal XP. Back then, the tank was there to hold the mob for a few seconds before the SC/MB went off. After that, if the mob wasn't dead, there was trouble. Everyone remembers the stupid Freeze MBs on crabs in Kuftal back in the day. It was fun, and we thought it was great, but one Bubble Curtain from the crab and your Freeze went from 1100 dmg to 550 and the crab ate your BLM for lunch.

Tanking these sort of mobs causes tanks to suck, since they have no experience tanking anything that attacks fast/double attacks and once they hit Lesser Colibri, they ***** and suck because they can't take the heat in their turtle(PLD) and evasion(NIN) builds.

Sorry, kinda went on a tangent.

To the OP: Dia first, always, don't touch the Bio line in XP. After that, I personally went with Slow, since the recast is longer and if it doesn't stick, you can cast Para and cast another Slow when the recast is up again. Blind I never bother(ed) with really - if you have a NIN tank, they'll be casting Kurayami anyway, which is both more potent, and adds to their enmity as well.

Speaking of, if you have a NIN tank, let them Hojo (Slow) and Kurayami (Blind) for hate, since the :Ni line of those spells casts fast and they're more potent than your tier-1 Slow/Blind. Ninjas don't get Jubaku: Ni (Paralyze II), so if they're casting Jubaku: Ichi, it takes forever and is basically as potent as your Paralyze I, which takes you a fraction of a second to cast.

All in all, it's for you to judge. Always cast Dia/Dia II, but if the mob is only lasting a few seconds, don't bother with Slow/Para/Blind. This mostly happens 55+ from Lesser Colibri and on. Before then, judge the situation and cast what you think is necessary.
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#26ThePsychoticOne the Prophet, Posted: Dec 07 2009 at 4:34 AM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) No. Dia is sufficient to keep enfeebling capped (and you **** well better be casting it, if only the tier1 which is a measly 7 mp), or at least close. Recently i astral burned rdm from 48->55. My enfeeb skill was around 140 (cap is 147 at 48). Then i joined a party to get from 55->60, and got my enfeeb skill to 182; one less than the cap for 56. I casted nothing but dia2 (not that anything else would land with no gear anyway lol), and got that in a single party (casted it on 95%+ of lolibri). One more decently long party, and i could cap it probably.
#27 Dec 07 2009 at 5:40 AM Rating: Good
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Slight derail question for Rog. Do you make your own parties for all levels? If no, would you disband from a party that XP wouldn't be maxed because the group lacked the cookie cutter setup or location?

Solrain made some very good points. The reason why most tanks suck nowadays is because they don't learn how to tank. A PL that co-tanks in Qufim parties doesn't help nor does tanking birds at any level. Back in the old days, I tanked everything on my NIN including the infamous raptor camps. Most of the time, we had no BRD so there wasn't such a thing as double march. I remember one specific party in Kuftal with a BRD. Elegy and Hojo was so potent, I barely broke a sweat tanking. The point of lower levels is to learn how to play your job, not only maximize XP per hour. If that's all you care about, stick to those Astral burns.

Lastly, RDM is a very versatile job. Some of us play it better than others. Some of us can solo crazy stuff while others enjoy the tanking side. The OP wanted to know which enfeebles they should use for XP parties. I chose to give situational answers because I often find myself in situations that call upon them. I don't disband a XP party because it's not optimal. I might not stick around for 3 hours, but I try to perceive XP parties beyond mere XP/Levels gained. Dia/II and Slow are the only 2 enfeebles you should concern yourself with most of the time. The rest have a time and a place to use them. It's up to you as a RDM to learn by trial and error what is required based on the individual situation, not some elitist nonsense that fails to take into effect the party situation.

Quote:
The thing you seem to be forgetting is that this game is not as hard as rocket surgery, or brain science. Outside of soloing high end nms, this game is very easy. Although there are many idiots that play it, that does not mean you should assume the OP is. Guess what? Smn play exp parties as whm-1, and then play completely different in endgame. If they can do that, why can't a rdm? Blm is in a similar situation too (going from soloing everything, to being in a group).


While I agree with in regard to SMN's party role, your opinion of RDM is inaccurate. RDM for all intensive purposes is the most difficult job in the game to play right. That's mostly because of how versatile the job is and how others have their own unique expectations. No offense to any SMN's reading this, but SMN is a very simple job to play compared to RDM. You get 1 Blood pact for damage and support per minute(I'm not going to figure in all that augmented/situational gear that might lower that number either). Other than that, SMN is a whm-1 like you mentioned that uses their mp to help cure people.

Rog, if you think this game is easy, you might want to place yourself in the gifted category. I'd say 75% of mages can't perform their job properly and that's on a sliding scale. It's hard for most mages to perform the basic functions like a haste cycle. This game isn't rocket science, but people like yourself hold the bar too **** high. You have this notion that the game might be played optimal at all times. That explains your need for astral burns and those chigoe parties you're so fond of on the forums. Some people need more practice than the next guy. That's the calculation you seem to forget in the grand scheme of things.

Edited, Dec 7th 2009 6:05am by ShadowedgeFFXI
#28 Dec 07 2009 at 5:47 AM Rating: Default
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Slight derail question for Rog. Do you make your own parties for all levels? If no, would you disband from a party that XP wouldn't be maxed because the group lacked the cookie cutter setup or location?

I usually do not join them to begin with, unless it is a reasonable setup (no turtle pld/eva nin, brd and/or cor (requiring brd at 75, but will take just cor at lower levels), proper camp, etc), unless i am really desperate for some exp (which is extremely rare).
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#29 Dec 07 2009 at 6:05 AM Rating: Excellent
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I would like to preview this by stating that I will be relating to the OP's questions in the last paragraph. But since Rog is trying to hijack the thread, I would like to respond to those posts first.

Proposal: In exp parties below level 74, a dedicated tank makes fights go smoother and more efficient to the point where it is required in the vast majority of cases.

A Damage Dealer is a class that is designed to deal damage without regard for defense or personal safety. They are equipped with low defense, low vit gear that focuses on damage dealing stats. In addition, they use job abilities that can cause even further lowered defense (i.e. berserk), not to mention eating food that boosts attack or accuracy and not defense.

A Tank is a class designed to build and hold hate, and reduce the damage taken. There are two kinds of tanks, those equipped for pure defense (defense/vit/eva gear, fish food, defender, etc) and those equipped for offense, relying on job traits and spells to reduce the amount of damage taken to manageable levels. Please note the word "manageable", it will be key later on.

As for anecdotal evidence, I have personally played three tank classes through most of the exp levels. When I leveled war in a semi-static, I used two war/nin as tanks fairly often, bouncing hate between them when shadows fell. This was back in 2004/2005, when sky war tp burns were just getting popular. My nin is all but retired at almost 70, and I recently picked up pld, where it is flying through the 50s.

When you go out to gain exp, the entire party comes down to two things: dealing a lot of damage, and surviving the fight. In fact, surviving is only required in order to kill quickly and constantly. In order to survive the fight, you can either reduce the damage taken, or heal it. If you heal the damage, that requires mp. And mp is a limited resource. The key, then, becomes reducing the damage you take by enough so that mp regen can keep up with heals and not demand resting or downtime.

A pure DD has very few ways of reducing incoming damage. They could sub nin, keeping utsusemi up to absorb hits. A samurai main (after lvl 35) can use seigan + third eye to great effect, but is less reliable than utsusemi. Unfortunately, both options require reduced damage in order to gain the defense. The few exceptions are jobs like thief and ranger, and to a lesser extent warrior, where using /nin can increase damage with dual weild.

The other issue with requiring your DD to have their own defenses, is hate control. I'm not sure how often anyone else has tried to tp burn before level 74, but just a single slow casting utsusemi makes life rough. Not knowing when you are going to be targeted makes timer and shadow management difficult at best. This is further compounded on mobs with double attack or multiple-hit weapon skills, since you have no quick utsusemi: ni to fall back on. As per my own experience, having two war/nin DDs trade hate worked exceptionally well ONLY because they both knew that it was their job to have the mob focus on them, and when to let the other war take it. It was about managing where the damage was going next, so we could be ready for it. Not going full out DD and expecting the shadows to take it.

Why does shadows or seigan make a big difference? A properly geared DD can take as much as double the damage as a "turtle" paladin. (A turtle paladin is one geared for pure defense, and I am not advocating it in this specific example.) Even if the paladin has hybrid DD gear, the DD can still take 50% more damage easily. This leads to spending large amounts of mp on cures, and can lead to downtime or even death if the healer isn't fast enough or doesn't have enough reserve mp.

Without the proper damage reduction, a healer can't keep up with damage taken. The vast majority of DDs under level 74 do not have the damage reduction required to sustain a party without frequent rests. Having a dedicated tank reduces damage taken to a level that allows the healer to maintain mp indefinitely, assuming proper mp regen and camp location. It also allows the DD to focus on dealing damage, often more than making up for the amount of damage lost switching to a tank.

Having mp regen roughly equal mp expenditure is the ideal. After all, there's no point in gaining more mp than you use. If that is the case, the tank can take a little more damage in order to deal a little more damage. Some turtle pieces can be swapped for damage pieces. Note: nin turtles with evasion, pld turtles with defense and vit, so I'm not only assuming one or the other.

That leads to the point everyone always says: it depends. Sometimes, you want to go full-out attack on paladin, since you have high base defense and vit, not to mention a shield that blocks a ton of damage. But sometimes, you might want to swap out a few pieces for some extra damage reduction. It's a juggling act, trying to deal the most damage possible (for extra hate, and to kill it faster) while making sure you aren't taking too much damage.

Doing pugils at lvl 22? Fish kabob all the way. Reducing damage by 15-20% made it easier to hold hate, and made it so book refresh meant we never had to rest. Mandies? Meat for sure. They already hit like unarmed black mages, might as well kill them as fast as possible.

The whole point is that turtling is rarely the answer. But neither is going full attack. The best tanks find the sweet spot.


Enfeebling from a tank point of view is pretty simple. If you have a ninja tank, wait a couple of battles to see if they use Hojo or Jubaku, their version of Slow and Paralyze, respectively. Most low level ninjas don't, since the early versions suck, but they get hate from it so let them cast if they are going to. If they aren't casting Hojo, slow is a priority. Slow makes it easier to cast between mob swings so they don't get interrupted. It is actually the same with paladins and cures, slow makes things easier. Paralyze does the same kind of thing, but it is random so you can't actually count on it. Blind doesn't matter too much, but ninjas might make good use out of it before lvl 37. Even still, the hate from casting blind can make it dangerous for the rdm.
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#30 Dec 07 2009 at 6:07 AM Rating: Good
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ThePsychoticOne the Prohpet wrote:

I usually do not join them to begin with, unless it is a reasonable setup (no turtle pld/eva nin, brd and/or cor (requiring brd at 75, but will take just cor at lower levels), proper camp, etc), unless i am really desperate for some exp (which is extremely rare).


So let's say you're on RDM on your Tarutaru. You get invited by some SAM/war who has impressive gear in Whitegate. Your party is only 3/6 at the moment and you have no tank or support class(BRD or COR) yet. Something tells me that you're the type of player that won't join a group until the group is 5/6. Or if not, would you force d/c or disband if the group wasn't cookie cutter enough? You clearly mentioned requiring of certain jobs so it appears this is the case.
#31 Dec 07 2009 at 8:46 AM Rating: Excellent
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Rog hasn't leveled a job to 75 in years, and in all likely hood hasn't merited in months. I doubt he still plays the game honestly. I've mentioned this before in other places but its like fishing stories told by old men while their sitting around. The first old man mentions this big 16 pound fish, that he fought for an hour to reel in. The second old man then talks about this one time that he caught a 25 pounded that took a couple hours and herculean strength to reel in. The third old man stands up and proudly recounts his take about a 50 pound fish that broke two fishing poles and he had to jump in the water to catch with his bare bands and a pocket knife.

Or like the guys at a country club bragging about who's got the better / more expensive / faster sports car and trying to feel superior to everyone not so blessed.

This has become a recurring theme in the last year or so with the older forum members. Everything that needs to be discussed has been discussed and all that is left is people who assume some sort of higher social status by pretending to be more exclusive.

Having a BRD in the PT used to be "great" but most of us mortals just got by with what we could do. BRD's not a commonly leveled job and most people who do level it only do so to ***** it for merits, then never touch it again. Nowadays its not even "good", its substandard if a BRD doesn't exist in the party. And heavens forbid if there isn't at least 2 /SAM full time hasso DD's who have maxed merits for their weapon prior to 75. Must also be a second BRD or COR, and you absolutely can not have any DD other then WAR/SAM/DRG, unless its the job the person in question is leveling.
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#32 Dec 07 2009 at 9:11 AM Rating: Good
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Once our newly minted red mage hits mid-levels, they'll want to start collecting their AF and limit break items. It's been awhile, but I'm pretty sure skeletons will be in 2 coffer key hunts and a lich for paper. Not to mention the various beastmen that require some debuffing. Most likely our red mage won't have an LS army to support him, so they'll be lucky to get 1~3 friends to help out.

This is the point, new players need to use the limited abilities at the start so it becomes second nature.

A couple of proc's of paralyze and a nice landing of slow does wonders to a normal xp party, just as much as when you're fighting sky gods/Ultima-Omega/etc. Getting people in the habit of casting debuffs rounds out the players experience, gives them knowledge in the game's machanics, and will hopefully make them a better player.

The standard isn't Astral Burns/brd+cor/PLx2/etc at your beck and call gaining silly amounts of xp/hr. The standard is a rough-shod PUG trying to hold it together to get 3-5k/hr pre-pink birds. In these types of parties, I want the rdm casting para/dia/slow/heck even gravity if mp is good. I want that mob confused and ham-strung so the tank isnt' getting eaten alive. If that 6mp paralyze proc's just once and saves the healer from burning 24mp for a cure II, I think I'll take that trade-off.
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#33 Dec 07 2009 at 9:30 AM Rating: Excellent
5k/hr is pretty weak. That's like, no one paying attention and your party is seriously overcamping.

I think I can get ~4k/hr soloing FoV pages.. (could be more, never really bothered to keep track)


Don't get me wrong, I'm all for Dia/Slow/Paralyze, but I would not be enjoying that 3-5k/hr party. I probably wouldn't stick around more than 1 hour in that scenario.

Edited, Dec 7th 2009 8:38am by Kirby
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#34 Dec 07 2009 at 10:26 AM Rating: Excellent
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Yeah, 3-5k/hr range is solo XP these days. There's no point in partying if that's all you're gonna get.


Quote:
This has become a recurring theme in the last year or so with the older forum members. Everything that needs to be discussed has been discussed and all that is left is people who assume some sort of higher social status by pretending to be more exclusive.

Having a BRD in the PT used to be "great" but most of us mortals just got by with what we could do. BRD's not a commonly leveled job and most people who do level it only do so to ***** it for merits, then never touch it again. Nowadays its not even "good", its substandard if a BRD doesn't exist in the party. And heavens forbid if there isn't at least 2 /SAM full time hasso DD's who have maxed merits for their weapon prior to 75. Must also be a second BRD or COR, and you absolutely can not have any DD other then WAR/SAM/DRG, unless its the job the person in question is leveling.


Eh, yes and no.

I agree, most of what gets posted anymore is just rehashing topics that have already been done.

That being said, consider that the situation for many of us has changed over the years. The attraction for a "meh" merit party for someone with hundreds of merits, a bunch of BRDs/CORs/heavily merited DDs/etc on their friends list, and a bunch of other stuff to do in-game is going to be different than someone who just hit 75 on their first job.

So it's logical that people's views on things like that will shift.

More generally, XP and merit strategies have changed, so it's only fair to represent them as they are. Not as they were when some of us originally leveled RDM.
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#35 Dec 07 2009 at 10:43 AM Rating: Decent
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Mostly just dia in meripo. But if you're fighting a rough mob like a skoffin, for example, a slow/para doesn't hurt if you have spare mp/time.
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#36 Dec 07 2009 at 11:05 AM Rating: Excellent
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Thanks for all of the good advice and plenty of things to think about, everyone. This has been quite helpful.

klausneck wrote:
Roast Mushroom/Witch Kabob are very good foods to eat. Both give +MP/MND and MP recovered while resting.


Thanks for the info on foods, too, especially since I'm too low level to be in parties with Refresh and I'm too poor/inexperienced to find and get all the insanely good +MND or +INT gear. I'm going to start "raising a craft" soon and I think I will try cooking first for exactly this reason. Next stop: Gadsden the cookie monster!
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#37 Dec 07 2009 at 12:09 PM Rating: Excellent
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If you're just after MND, a better food is Goblin Mushpots. 3hr food netting +10 MND, -5 CHR, Resist Blind n' Poison, available from the NPC way in the back of the Goblin shop in Lower Jeuno for ~1140 gil. Sounds expensive, but again, it's a 3hr food - it really works out to be cheap for the duration (even moreso if you get Sanction and get the "extended food duration" bonus, it'll double it to 6hrs).

For HMP, you can get better with cookies. Ginger/Wizard are very good. HMP is far more important than max MP most of the time. Usually you only need max MP for a short while - as cookies are a 3 or 5 minute food, you can use Bretzels (also a 3 or 5 minute food) to get a temporary boost in max MP when you need to Convert or something. The NQ versions of both of those are also available from NPC for cheap.

Roast Mushrooms/Witch Kabobs are a decent mix of the two, but depending on what you're doing you may want to skew things more towards an extreme.
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#38 Dec 07 2009 at 12:24 PM Rating: Excellent
I liked Mushroom Stew (3hr food): nice mix of MP+40, hmp+4, enmity-4, MND+4
It's more expensive than the kabobs or the mushpot, but nice if you have the gil to spare.

Edited, Dec 7th 2009 11:32am by Kirby
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#39ThePsychoticOne the Prophet, Posted: Dec 07 2009 at 1:45 PM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) Exactly.
#40 Dec 07 2009 at 3:58 PM Rating: Good
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ThePsychoticOne the Prohpet wrote:

Well, atm i kind of want 75, so i will put up with more than i would normally, but i rarely join parties that do not already have a brd and/or cor.


So in a normal situation, you would /tell the PT leader this correct?

PT Leader: PT Do you need it?

ROG: Do you have a COR or BRD yet?

PT Leader: Not yet, but I'm trying to get one.

ROG: Let me know when you get one.

PT leader #2: RDM Party Do you need it?

Rog: You have a COR or BRD yet?

PT leader #2: Yep, we have a BRD and COR

ROG: Cool invite me.

10 min later...

PT Leader #1: Hey I got a BRD, you want to come to Whitegate now?

Rog: Sorry I already got a PT, see ya again.

PT leader #1: .......

I don't really care if that's the way you are Rog. However, I don't think most people act like that judging from my experience. I think most people give the party a shot and make an excuse to leave early if it sucks. I agree that your party should be earning more than 3-5k a hour because otherwise you should just solo. But what if your party was making 7k a hour at a steady pace at lv35. The party might not be optimal, but it's still not terrible enough to disband and flag up. For all you know, the party might move to East Ron.(S) at lv37 and then the XP would increase quite a bit.

Goblin mushpot or stew are solid food choices. Anything with -enmity and HMP are great for those pre-Refresh/Convert levels especially. Ginger/Wizard cookies are good too for resting should you run out of the other food.
#41ThePsychoticOne the Prophet, Posted: Dec 07 2009 at 4:12 PM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) Yup, almost word for word what i usually say.
#42 Dec 07 2009 at 7:23 PM Rating: Good
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In order for a tank to increase damage, they need to allow the other 3 dds to do an average of 33% more damage. While not having to worry about survival makes a ridiculously huge difference at higher levels (with 55% haste (20% gear, 15 haste, 20% march) hasso alone increases damage by almost 30%), it is unlikely to increase damage by 33% at lower levels. The only issue is surviving, which is not particularly hard if you are bouncing hate around.


This entire paragraph is wrong. For more than one reason. You either didn't listen to what I said, or disagree and didn't provide anything to back up your claim. I welcome valid arguments, I'm always happy to be proven wrong, but just stating something without any evidence or reasoning is rude.

Even an earth staff-wielding paladin deals damage. I haven't seen one of those around in awhile, so it's safe to assume even a turtle tank can deal 50% of the damage of a pure DD. That alone drops the required damage output to 12% more, while riding Berserk alone adds 15% average attack. Add in less time casting shadows (remember, 3 second cast time?) or swapping to seigan and you make up the difference.

A properly geared tank that actually deals damage, thus gaining respectable CE, can easily get to 75% of the damage dealt by a heavy DD. I don't need to do the math for you to see that you have a net gain of damage.

But why not bounce hate around, and have your DDs go all out? Other than the fact that you lose damage which may or may not be made up from having a DD rather than a Tank, you conveniently forgot about my point where expected damage is important. It is important to know where the mob will attack next, and knowing is half the battle.

Need an example? Sure. Say you are in a 4x war/nin party at lvl 55, fighting lesser colibri. You have a designated first voke, but after that you just let hate bounce. The ideal is that that first voker can recast shadows, and take 6 hits in a row if someone doesn't pull hate off first. While fights might be faster than they were 5 years ago, you still can't kill as fast as a merit party. And when the mob is bouncing around, you have neither the haste nor separate timers required to keep full shadows up. Inevitably, someone will be caught with no shadows or shadows wiped with pecking flurry, then you have a berserking warrior getting eaten with no way to recast. Even more often, you will only have 1-2 shadows taken before the mob turns, at which point you have to take the time to recast or leave yourself partially open. If you knew where the mob was going next, you could decide if it was worth waiting to recast. Or if you need to get full shadows back up asap, since its going after you next. Juggling timers becomes so much easier with a small amount of coordination.

This works in merit parties because you have ridiculous amounts of haste available, and utsusemi: ni to fall back on. Managing timers is much less important. This is further compounded by the fact that most healers at 75 are merited and pimped out in gear that can put out HUGE amounts of cures, much more than a lower level could dream amount. Sublimation, convert recast merits, auto-refresh gear, ballad + evokers, etc, all make mp a much smaller issue.

I think I'm done arguing. Allakhazam always makes me frustrated. I'll see how I feel tomorrow.
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#43 Dec 08 2009 at 6:21 AM Rating: Default
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So to the OP

I see your rdm/whm which means you'll more than likely be main heal or definatly back up heal if they actuall get a whm

When you're main healing, you have a lot to do and MP conservation is important so like they said before Dia is a good enfeeble to land but then look at the fight and how its going

Are you cure bombing b/c the tank is taking a lot of damage? Are you curing status aliments a lot b/c the mob is throwing out enfeebles?

Personally I would say cure + curing status aliments > landing a bunch of enfeebles

As /whm you almost have to act as a normal whm w/o the benifit of that specialty so as always situation dependant but you don't wanna end up with {No more MP!}
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#44 Dec 08 2009 at 6:48 AM Rating: Default
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I am confused.

Why is it that people seem to think a RDM needs to cast Para on every mob until level 75 in order to understand that it needs to be cast on an HNM?

Are you really suggesting that the people you want to play with are SOOOO stupid that they can only do something that they have done a million times before.

If the RDMs you seem to be talking about can tell the difference between and EXP mob and an HNM (and act accordingly) then they have bigger problems than how they play this game (like forgetting to breath in).

Any capable player can adjust their play style to suit the situation, for example I often pull (with Dia III) in our nyzul group (kill all floors), but I am not going to pull in a merit party.

As for gimped skills, that's what besieged and sea is for.

Simple fact is, stupid people will suck no matter how they exp.
#45 Dec 08 2009 at 8:46 AM Rating: Excellent
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Wow there's a lot of crumby advice in this thread.
You all need to take your merit party discussion and GTFO. The OP isn't even level 30 yet.

To the OP: When I see a Red Mage in my party that isn't casting debuffs it really gets under my skin. The beauty of enfeebling magic is that it's significant damage mitigation for a fraction of the cost it would take to heal folks. An ounce of prevention and all that.

The only ones you should be hesitant to cast are Gravity and Blind most of the time. Blind tends to generate a lot of hate, so if casting it draws the mob to the back line you might want to hold up on it. I tend to not throw Gravity on a mob unless I see the party missing a bunch.

Don't slack on enfeebles. If you can stick Blind, Paralyze and Slow you will see a significant drop in the ammount of damage your party is taking. That's been my experience in exp parties and I don't understand why folks here want their tank to be squishier. I guess they like party wipes?
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#46 Dec 08 2009 at 1:20 PM Rating: Default
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Argettio wrote:
I am confused.

Why is it that people seem to think a RDM needs to cast Para on every mob until level 75 in order to understand that it needs to be cast on an HNM?

Are you really suggesting that the people you want to play with are SOOOO stupid that they can only do something that they have done a million times before.

If the RDMs you seem to be talking about can tell the difference between and EXP mob and an HNM (and act accordingly) then they have bigger problems than how they play this game (like forgetting to breath in).

Any capable player can adjust their play style to suit the situation, for example I often pull (with Dia III) in our nyzul group (kill all floors), but I am not going to pull in a merit party.

As for gimped skills, that's what besieged and sea is for.

Simple fact is, stupid people will suck no matter how they exp.

qft, etc.
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#47 Dec 08 2009 at 1:25 PM Rating: Decent
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cidbahamut wrote:
Wow there's a lot of crumby advice in this thread.
You all need to take your merit party discussion and GTFO. The OP isn't even level 30 yet.

To the OP: When I see a Red Mage in my party that isn't casting debuffs it really gets under my skin. The beauty of enfeebling magic is that it's significant damage mitigation for a fraction of the cost it would take to heal folks. An ounce of prevention and all that.

The only ones you should be hesitant to cast are Gravity and Blind most of the time. Blind tends to generate a lot of hate, so if casting it draws the mob to the back line you might want to hold up on it. I tend to not throw Gravity on a mob unless I see the party missing a bunch.

Don't slack on enfeebles. If you can stick Blind, Paralyze and Slow you will see a significant drop in the ammount of damage your party is taking. That's been my experience in exp parties and I don't understand why folks here want their tank to be squishier. I guess they like party wipes?


Speaking of crumby advice... You should always cast your offensive debuffs whenever you can in regular EXP. That's Dia every mob, Gravity every mob. If the mobs are lasting long enough to warrant casting Paralyze and Slow, do so. As a rule of thumb, I'd say an average kill speed over 30 seconds gets defensive debuffs.

If you are using an evasion tank that is not a NIN, cast blind. There's no point in casting blind if the mob has capped accuracy against your PLD.
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#48 Dec 11 2009 at 10:10 AM Rating: Excellent
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Well, there is some truth behind it.

For example, I only know one rdm (with about 20 other ppl that have it leveled) that hasn't been a career rdm for years that actually does the job the right way.

Sad, but in my experience.. it is true. Rdm's who didn't level it "back in the day" tend to suck more.

Edit:: Also, just because Rog does it doesn't mean you should :P

There are a lot of people who have acheived as much or more and who have never been an ******* while seeking for a party.

Edited, Dec 11th 2009 11:16am by LordMnementh
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#49 Dec 11 2009 at 11:51 PM Rating: Decent
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If you are with a NIN that is evasion tanking (You will end up with them) cast Blind for sure. They can still use Kurayami: Ni because it's a tier2 debuff and it will overwrite Blind. I rarely ever seen Kurayami stick regularly after level 60.

I'm not arguing that Evasion nin's are okay, or that DD NIN's are better, i'm just saying when you end up in a party with an evasion ninja, use blind.
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#50 Dec 12 2009 at 6:57 AM Rating: Default
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Quote:
For example, I only know one rdm (with about 20 other ppl that have it leveled) that hasn't been a career rdm for years that actually does the job the right way.

Sad, but in my experience.. it is true. Rdm's who didn't level it "back in the day" tend to suck more.

So, which do i count for? I started leveling rdm to around 60ish back in 2004, but have only been a career rdm for liek, a year and a half (or less rly, since i still considered nin to be my main job for a month or two after i got rdm to 75).

Quote:
Edit:: Also, just because Rog does it doesn't mean you should :P

There are a lot of people who have acheived as much or more and who have never been an @#%^ while seeking for a party.

How does not wanting to waste my time with a subpar party make me a @#%^? It is not like i yell "LOL OMG NO @#%^ING WAY, YOU DON'T EVEN HAVE A BRD AND COR, GO KILL YOURSELF, I WOULD NEVER JOIN A GIMP PT LIEK THAT!!!!11 ". I simply, and politely say no thanks, and if they are just starting, i will say they can ask me again if they get a brd.

I will never understand why people think i am such a horrible person because i would rather wait around for a better party, and do something more productive than 5k/hr at lower levels, or 10~15k/hr at 75 in the mean time. I understand that waiting around for 5 hours for a party is not something everyone can do because of a limited play time, so a subpar party can very well be better for them than sitting around doing nothing. But i spend all of my free time, from the time i get home, until the time i go to sleep 10-14 hours later either at my computer, or nearby, so time limitations are not an issue for me. I would simply rather post on forums, watch tv, play other games, make monies, etc than waste my in a subpar party.

Edited, Dec 12th 2009 8:20am by ThePsychoticOne
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#51 Dec 12 2009 at 9:21 AM Rating: Good
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I must admit that 5k/hr is a little pointless, since any competent duo can achieve that(all the while having more fun). If a party of 6 can't beat that, then the whole point of FFXI's "party dynamics" fall apart.
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