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Newb Question: Which Debuff Spells?Follow

#1 Dec 05 2009 at 11:14 AM Rating: Excellent
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Hello RDM Forum. I am a new player on Titan and have come to thoroughly enjoy my role as an RDM. But UNLIKE the recent (hilarious) rant from the "Bannable Offenses" blog (Rage of the Red Mages), I have actually not received much advice from party members on how to do my job. So I thought I would seek the advice of people experienced with the job.

Specifically, I am wondering which debuff spells are best to use. Which debuff spells do you typically use in XP party battles? I checked the RDM FAQ sticky and it did not seem to specifically address this question (please correct me if I'm wrong!)

I understand a lot of this is situational and dependent on the element of the debuff spells (yadda yadda monster is strong against yadda yadda element so you shouldn't use yadda yadda spell), but I was hoping just for some general advice on how to go about figuring out which debuff spells work best and/or which work best on certain types of monsters.

Dia seems to be an obvious winner from past discussions on this board, but are there any other debuffs that are MUST USE?

If you need my situational details, I am currently leveling a level 21 RDM/WHM at Valkurm Dunes, and spending time in party battles against Snippers, Damselflies, various Goblins, Brutal Sheep, and Beach Pugils.

Thanks in advance for your advice/input!
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#2Princess ThePsychoticOne, Posted: Dec 05 2009 at 11:33 AM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) You should never need any debuffs other than dia. Slow and para may occasionally be useful for ****** parties fighting IT++ mobs, without a tp burn setup, but then i would just avoid those parties anyway, since they are not worth the time/effort.
#3 Dec 05 2009 at 11:40 AM Rating: Good
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I'd say pick paralyze or slow if you do not have mp trouble. Paralyze is only 6 mp iirc, so its not too expensive. If the tank is struggling against the mob you should put up enfeebles, but I can't imagine that will happen often.

One thing to note is silence for worms when/if you go to qufim island.

It will help you cap enfeebling skill as you level if nothing else.
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#4Renowaikk the Meaningless, Posted: Dec 05 2009 at 11:49 AM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) Dia is the most important as you already said. Slow is garbage, para is great if you have the mp. I just took scholar to 37, and I found para proc`d a lot. Blind is ok if you have an abundance of mp, however be careful, blind generates a lot of hate. Half a provoke iirc.
#5 Dec 05 2009 at 1:08 PM Rating: Good
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hmmm, shouldnt he just use all of them?

As a nin tank i know i loved every debuff i could get from my mages. Of course i can use mine too, and while leveling i sure did for advantage aspect and also for hate. But if i get resisted at start there is nothing like the help on debuff from a pro debuffer.

Blind for one was the best debuff a nin could get. More so now with Yonin.

So i might add that which debuff you will be using depends on your tank. If it is pld you cant stick with para and slow. If its a nin you might wanna talk with him and check which debuffs he wants to do. But in the case he gets resisted try to back him up cause nin recast is 30/45 secs.

Surely this can be tough if you are main healing around the lvl you are right now. But are you really main healing on those lvls? Most likely you will have a whm partner or a PL. At lvl 41 you should be more than fine anyway.
#6 Dec 05 2009 at 1:14 PM Rating: Excellent
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Renowaikk the Meaningless wrote:
Blind is ok if you have an abundance of mp, however be careful, blind generates a lot of hate. Half a provoke iirc.


It's just over a third of a provoke (640 VE). Given the curing you're probably also doing, it's probably enough to get you into trouble every once in a while.
#7 Dec 05 2009 at 2:13 PM Rating: Excellent
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It generally depends. While Slow might not reduce a ton of damage, it makes the tank's life noticeably easier. That's assuming you have a decent tank that pays attention to the mob's swings, and casts between them.

Paralyze is nice, and even with just 1 proc it saves you mp from having to cure. Personally, it's not worth going out of my way to cast, I generally only do so if I'm already standing and waiting on timers (pre-birds, of course).

Blind can do more harm than good. It is a high-hate spell, and is rarely worth putting yourself higher on the hate list. It might help a little with ninja tanks pre-30, but hopefully they are already casting their ninjutsu version of blind.

When you get there, gravity lowers evasion by 10. While useful, it is rarely worth the mp and time cost. Cast it if you have nothing better to do, but it is rarely used in exp pts.

And, of course, dia is just brilliant. Should be cast on everything you don't intent to sleep. Reminder: bio overwrites dia, and shouldn't be used.

Also, you should be moving to qufim soon, for the lvl 19-24 range. At the earlier levels, you fight worms which need to be silenced right away.
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#8 Dec 05 2009 at 5:10 PM Rating: Excellent
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Something from the Dia series should be a given on nearly anything. If it helps, consider it giving your party an ATT boost roughly the same as the Dia's DEF down (5%, 10%, 15% for I, II, and III respectively). It's actually typically worth a tad more than that...regardless, a very good bonus for mobs your group is meleeing.

As mentioned, Bio spells on par or above a given Dia spell tier will remove/preempt it. Those are not normally cast in XP.

Gravity is a good one, particularly low level, if your MP can support it as the cost can add up. The status of "weight" that Gravity inflicts noticeably slows movement speed, but it also lowers evasion (by 10, according to tests).

Paralyze and Slow series are good if you've got harder mobs - they're a given for NMs, endgame fights, etc if they will stick - the catch with a lot of XP fights is that you ideally will be chopping through mobs too fast for them to really matter. One caveat is that if you have a blink tank (NIN or /NIN), Slowing a mob is very beneficial, though a NIN may be casting Hojo themselves.

Blind is pretty meh for XP. If you're fighting an NM with a job that has good evasion (THF, NIN, DNC, MNK, etc), then it's good to use. In XP, evasion is rarely the way to go for them, and without gearing heavily for it, it sucks. As mentioned, if you want to help a blink tank, slow the mob.

Silence is basically a given if the mob can cast.

Poison is probably not a big deal to use in XP, as the DoT won't have much of a chance to do much. In longer fights though, it'll add up, and may be worth tossing out.

Another very important thing once you get it is Dispel. Many of the self-buff moves that mobs use are worth getting rid of in short order - some of them can significantly reduce damage - so get used to firing that off quickly.

Edited, Dec 5th 2009 6:15pm by Isiolia
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#9 Dec 05 2009 at 5:20 PM Rating: Excellent
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Never ignore Slow and Paralyze in any group under 74. Don't care what the TP burn nuts tell you, it can make your life easier if they actually know what "recast shadows" means. I'd still use Slow in merits just because having people hasted means it's more time the colibri wastes parroting you and not killing the guy who DOESN'T understand what defenses are.

Blind is only really useful if you have a NIN tank, but they should be casting their version to help themselves tank.

Gravity's timer is kind of prohibitive, and if your melees need it to hit, they're eating the wrong food.

Dia is usually a no-brainer, but I wouldn't always call it needed.
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#10 Dec 05 2009 at 8:20 PM Rating: Good
What Seriha said. When leveling both RDM and WHM to 75, I always made sure the mob had Dia, Slow and Paralyze on it.
I almost always passed on casting Blind, since PLD's generally won't notice a difference, and NIN's have their own version which help with their enmity generation.

Gravity can be helpful vs. high evasion mobs like Beetles, but like others have said, it can be costly to use it on every 1-2 mobs.

You'll get the most complaints if you miss Dispel on mobs that have a defensive buff.

Oh, and you'll want to keep an eye out for links, or aggro that your parties occasionally get. Be ready to Sleep those.

Edited, Dec 5th 2009 7:23pm by Kirby
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#11 Dec 06 2009 at 1:13 AM Rating: Decent
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I'd say Dia is always useful lv1-75. Slow is our 2nd best enfeeble overall and should be used exclusively in non-TP burn parties. Our 3rd most useful enfeeble is Dispel, however it's not as useful in parties because of the colibri craze. However should you find yourself in a party fighting crabs, crawlers, or beetles, Dispel is very helpful. Silence is useful if you're fighting mage mobs.

Poison isn't worth it ever in a party situation. Blind isn't bad if you have a NIN tank, but Slow is more useful. Bio should never be used over Dia in a party. The reason being the mob loses -10%def(Dia II) so that every person whacking on the mob benefits compared to Bio II's -10% ATK down that typically only affects the tank. Slow is much more useful in helping the tank. Gravity is good in a pinch if your melee are whiffing a lot, but otherwise I'd say no. Gravity typically doesn't last long enough to be worth the mp cost plus it's useless on colibri which is what most people fight.

In recapping, use Dia I/II and Slow often. Paralyze isn't useless, but it's not as useful as Dia and Slow. Use Dispel and Silence as needed. Forget the other enfeebles in party situations. If your party is mage heavy, you may include Paralyze and Gravity in your enfeebling rotation. If not, conserve your mp accordingly.

Edited, Dec 6th 2009 1:23am by ShadowedgeFFXI
#12 Dec 06 2009 at 1:48 PM Rating: Good
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When I was leveling RDM lo those many years ago the order I always went with was:
Dia (of whatever level)- damage taken by the mob speeds up kills and is guaranteed

Slow - damage reduction from slow is a guaranteed % over time
(Edit: I may not have emphasized this enough - Slow should always be your second debuff, it is guaranteedItalic Text damage reduction no matter what kind of tank you have, this buff is (to my mind) the most important to have on at all times. NIN will thank you because they can get shadows back up and WHM will thank you because they will be healing less and can concentrate on other buffs.

Paralyze/Silence - if the mob is a caster type Silence comes first, if not Paralyze (build a MND set around this spell and macro it in for the best effect possible)

Blind - it's a large spike in hate but by this point the tank should have hate under control and it shouldn't be a problem

Anything beyond that is gravy (and likely unnecessary as the mob will likely be nearly dead). Remember, after 41 you will be working these spells into a regular Refresh (and after 48 Haste) cycle and you often won't have time to cast anything beyond Dia and Slow.

In a merit party all this is moot but from your sig. you're a ways off from TP burn/merit parties. This order worked for me all the way to the high 60s when TP burns, solo healing, and /WHM became mandatory (I was a heretic and went /BLM for most of my RDM leveling experience).

All of these things are, of course, situational. If your tank can't keep hate off you when casting Blind, skip it.
Dispel should be used every time a mob uses certain buffs (Berserk is actually a pretty good one to leave up, it just enhances damage taken and allows for a faster kill.

Bind in those rare situations where you have no choice but to pull hate and know it before hand (it will likely wear very quickly and only provide a brief respite).

Gravity I always had mixed feelings about. Some parties wanted it on every mob but they generally didn't understand its (relatively) high MP cost and very long recast time. The fact is I never found it very useful in party situations.


Poison and Bio, as stated in above posts are pretty useless in XP parties and should be skipped altogether.

One reason I personally liked /BLM while leveling was for the elemental enfeeble line. Each one hurts a specific attribute and can emphasize a particular mob weakness or blunt a strength. These may not be huge differences but (again like everything in this game) situationaly they can make a noticeable difference.

Edited, Dec 6th 2009 2:58pm by SlaxLeary
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#13 Dec 06 2009 at 2:00 PM Rating: Good
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It depends what kind of party you're in. Dia/Dia II will always be top priority. If the fights aren't going really quickly, slow. If the DDs and/or tank are still having issues, paralyze. Blind is useless unless you have an evasion NIN, and if you do, sorry to hear that.

Any other enfeebles are not worth mention, except dispel, and you should know exactly when you need to use that anyway.



Edited, Dec 6th 2009 2:04pm by bsphil
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#14 Dec 06 2009 at 4:14 PM Rating: Default
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bsphil wrote:
If the fights aren't going really quickly, slow. If the DDs and/or tank are still having issues, paralyze. Blind is useless unless you have an evasion NIN, and if you do, sorry to hear that.


I wouldn't say an evasion NIN is a bad thing. In the early levels, using Drone or evasion earrings over Beetle earrings(ATK) isn't going to increase your damage output much anyways. Later on when NIN gets to wear a Hauby, the birds don't miss regardless of your evasion and it's better to focus on damage for hate holding reasons. The thing I noticed most when I leveled NIN was how crippled the mob would be with Elegy and Slow on it. I often never even used Ichi and held hate just fine because of it. More Dot, less time recasting shadows/shedding enmity.

That all being true, Blind can be useful for NIN tanks. You'll rarely use it in parties because you'll most likely be stuck main healing anyways. The only thing I want the OP to consider here is that Bsphil's comments aren't accurate for your entire leveling experience. Sometimes a turtle PLD and evasion NIN are better pre Lv55 camps. On birds, cast Dia and Slow and leave it at that. NIN's should be trying to use their own blind spell anyways. One last thing, Slow I and Blind I don't stack with NIN's Blind and Slow tools, only BRD songs stack.

Flashback:
I remembered a retro moment from my days of leveling RDM in 2004. Back in Bibiki Bay, I remembered partying with a tank, 2 melee DD's, a WHM and BLM, and myself. Well because of the way parties were in those old days, the DD's would make skill chains for the BLM to burst. This usually stole hate and caused bad things to happen. You guys probably remember, the blm steals hate and the tank and DD run around after it. So what I did on dhamels was to time my use of Gravity to right before the SC was going off. That way, when the dhamel shifted hate to the blm, the melee could beat on it without it running away thus saving the BLM's life. :P The BLM in those days were insane and seemed to believe that unless they pulled hate, they weren't doing their job. Gravity gave the illusion that the tank was holding hate on those MB's. Of course I often nuked in parties back in those days too. I just felt I'd share an old school moment on enfeebling tricks.

Edited, Dec 6th 2009 4:17pm by ShadowedgeFFXI
#15 Dec 06 2009 at 4:20 PM Rating: Default
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Sometimes a turtle PLD and evasion NIN are better pre Lv55 camps.

No it is not. You can get 10k+/hr with tp burn parties as early as 20ish.
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#16 Dec 06 2009 at 5:11 PM Rating: Good
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Does this 10K/hr rely on a PL? In a standard party set-up (which given the OPs level I think most of us are addressing) that isn't TP burning (which only works in certain situations at such a low level) the advice given I think is sound.

Please for the love of the FSM let's not train another new player in the level sync TP burn mindset from an early level. Let the OP learn how the job (and the game)is played so when and if he gets to endgame he at least has some idea of how hate management works and isn't another Astral Burn, gimp skill fool. Just my perspective on this question, let's teach him how these spells work and how/when to use them, not just tell him they're all worthless and the only thing he needs to know is hast/refresh/heal.
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#17 Dec 06 2009 at 5:20 PM Rating: Decent
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SlaxLeary wrote:
Does this 10K/hr rely on a PL? In a standard party set-up (which given the OPs level I think most of us are addressing) that isn't TP burning (which only works in certain situations at such a low level) the advice given I think is sound.

No. It relies on fighting t-vt mobs, with a brd/cor, and people actually using gear+food.

Quote:
Please for the love of the FSM let's not train another new player in the level sync TP burn mindset from an early level. Let the OP learn how the job (and the game)is played so when and if he gets to endgame he at least has some idea of how hate management works and isn't another Astral Burn, gimp skill fool. Just my perspective on this question, let's teach him how these spells work and how/when to use them, not just tell him they're all worthless and the only thing he needs to know is hast/refresh/heal.

You say that as if ffxi is the hardest game ever, and if you do not spend months playing 75 levels at 5k/hr, you will never learn the basic functions of the job. A competent person can easily learn all the basics and get them down in under a week. Anyone who cannot do that, probably would not have been a very good player regardless of how they got 75.
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#18 Dec 06 2009 at 7:09 PM Rating: Good
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ThePsychoticOne the Prohpet wrote:

No it is not. You can get 10k+/hr with tp burn parties as early as 20ish.


Did I say those parties were TP burns? Nope. In a regular non-TP burn PUG, my original point stands. That being said, I wish I had the luck you seem you have with XP parties. But remember Rog, just like those infomercials, your results may vary :P
#19 Dec 06 2009 at 7:24 PM Rating: Default
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ShadowedgeFFXI wrote:
ThePsychoticOne the Prohpet wrote:

No it is not. You can get 10k+/hr with tp burn parties as early as 20ish.


Did I say those parties were TP burns? Nope. In a regular non-TP burn PUG, my original point stands. That being said, I wish I had the luck you seem you have with XP parties. But remember Rog, just like those infomercials, your results may vary :P

Except turtle plds/eva nins are only good decent acceptable in the worst of pt setups. You are always better off getting a dd (or i suppose dd pld/nin, but that really is not ideal either..) and fighting the right mobs than fighting IT++ mobs with a turtle pld/dd nin.

Technically, sure, there are situations that could be improved by a turtle pld/eva nin, but if you are in that situation to begin with, you obviously do not care about improving anything, because if you did, you would avoid that situation like the plague.
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#20 Dec 06 2009 at 7:25 PM Rating: Decent
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In a regular non-TP burn PUG

I am also going to have to insist that we start calling those parties "2004 parties" or something to that affect, instead of "regular" parties. It is no longer 2004, and tp burn parties ARE the standard.
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#21 Dec 06 2009 at 8:30 PM Rating: Decent
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ShadowedgeFFXI wrote:
bsphil wrote:
If the fights aren't going really quickly, slow. If the DDs and/or tank are still having issues, paralyze. Blind is useless unless you have an evasion NIN, and if you do, sorry to hear that.


I wouldn't say an evasion NIN is a bad thing. In the early levels, using Drone or evasion earrings over Beetle earrings(ATK) isn't going to increase your damage output much anyways.
Actually, a pair of Beetle Earring +1s at low levels makes a significantly LARGER difference than later on.
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#22 Dec 06 2009 at 8:57 PM Rating: Good
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There is some really bad advice in this thread. The OP isn't asking about merit parties nor illusionary 350000xp/hr qufim parties. The question deals with standard build low/mid-level parties (tank, 3xDD, 2xsupport normally is the standard these days.)

Cast your de-buffs. It's that simple, dia/para/slow and stack on as much MND as you can for para/slow. Nothing has changed since 2003 when some of us started.

Roast Mushroom/Witch Kabob are very good foods to eat. Both give +MP/MND and MP recovered while resting. These will last you for quite awhile.

Once at 32 you will get Dispel. Do not skip this spell! (As a matter of fact, don't skip any spells.)

A short list of moves you'll want to use this on:

Crawler
Cocoon - grants defense boost to the mob.

Crab
Scissor Guard - grants defense boost to the mob.
Bubble Curtain - grants Shell to the mob.

Beetle
Rhino Guard - grants an evasion bonus to the mob.

Skeleton
Ice Spikes - Mage type only, causes paralyze.

On the topic of sleeping links/adds, be sure to stack on INT when casting Sleep to reduce resist rates.

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#23 Dec 06 2009 at 9:34 PM Rating: Default
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klausneck wrote:
There is some really bad advice in this thread. The OP isn't asking about merit parties nor illusionary 350000xp/hr qufim parties. The question deals with standard build low/mid-level parties (tank, 3xDD, 2xsupport normally is the standard these days.)

Just because it is the "standard" does not make it the best. There is no reason anyone should ever need a tank for exping.

Quote:
Nothing has changed since 2003 when some of us started.

Meh, some things have changed. Technically level sync did not change anything, but it does make it much, much more likely that you will get an idealish party setup, and also lets you stay at the better camps longer. Other than that, and a few other minor things, you are right, not much has changed. Oh, also the playerbase is not nearly as retarded as we used to be.

Quote:
Crawler
Cocoon - grants defense boost to the mob.

Crab
Scissor Guard - grants defense boost to the mob.
Bubble Curtain - grants Shell to the mob.

Beetle
Rhino Guard - grants an evasion bonus to the mob.

Skeleton
Ice Spikes - Mage type only, causes paralyze.

See, this is the problem. Crabs? WHY THE **** WOULD YOU FIGHT PLD/PLD MOBS, WITH A DEF+ WS, IN A GAME WHERE KILLING FASTER IS ALL THAT MATTERS? WHY!? And lets not forget skeles with their drainga, and -12.5% slashing, and -50% piercing damage! GENIUS!
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#24 Dec 06 2009 at 10:51 PM Rating: Excellent
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Hey Rog,

Try to remember back...while you were in the lower levels, were you ever doing something other than xping that might require you to fight bones/crabs/etc. **** that doesn't make ideal xp mobs. **** you didn't have to bot or use some app to get your way, er kill. Way to cloud the issue with useless ranting.

Its silly advice like you gave that gets people to end-game with extremely uncapped enfeeb. skill and never casting a de-buff. All they know is haste+haste+haste+haste+refresh+cure since you are teaching them "Meritting is the only thing you'll do...ever." You of all people here know the importance of enfeeb. magic, yet you are telling new players it's not worth the effort to cast it? If they're not casting now, do you honestly think they will cast it later? ********

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#25 Dec 07 2009 at 2:54 AM Rating: Excellent
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ThePsychoticOne the Prohpet wrote:
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Nothing has changed since 2003 when some of us started.

Meh, some things have changed. Technically level sync did not change anything, but it does make it much, much more likely that you will get an idealish party setup, and also lets you stay at the better camps longer. Other than that, and a few other minor things, you are right, not much has changed. Oh, also the playerbase is not nearly as retarded as we used to be.

Quote:
Crawler
Cocoon - grants defense boost to the mob.

Crab
Scissor Guard - grants defense boost to the mob.
Bubble Curtain - grants Shell to the mob.

Beetle
Rhino Guard - grants an evasion bonus to the mob.

Skeleton
Ice Spikes - Mage type only, causes paralyze.

See, this is the problem. Crabs? WHY THE @#%^ WOULD YOU FIGHT PLD/PLD MOBS, WITH A DEF+ WS, IN A GAME WHERE KILLING FASTER IS ALL THAT MATTERS? WHY!? And lets not forget skeles with their drainga, and -12.5% slashing, and -50% piercing damage! GENIUS!


This.

We haven't changed as much as people like to think, on the whole. Parties still fight crabs, beetles and other PLD-type, non-DA-ing mobs (because they're "easier" to tank) even though they have high def and eva/def/stoneskin/pro/shell buffs. While this was great in the old SC/MB days, it sucks now for optimal XP. Back then, the tank was there to hold the mob for a few seconds before the SC/MB went off. After that, if the mob wasn't dead, there was trouble. Everyone remembers the stupid Freeze MBs on crabs in Kuftal back in the day. It was fun, and we thought it was great, but one Bubble Curtain from the crab and your Freeze went from 1100 dmg to 550 and the crab ate your BLM for lunch.

Tanking these sort of mobs causes tanks to suck, since they have no experience tanking anything that attacks fast/double attacks and once they hit Lesser Colibri, they ***** and suck because they can't take the heat in their turtle(PLD) and evasion(NIN) builds.

Sorry, kinda went on a tangent.

To the OP: Dia first, always, don't touch the Bio line in XP. After that, I personally went with Slow, since the recast is longer and if it doesn't stick, you can cast Para and cast another Slow when the recast is up again. Blind I never bother(ed) with really - if you have a NIN tank, they'll be casting Kurayami anyway, which is both more potent, and adds to their enmity as well.

Speaking of, if you have a NIN tank, let them Hojo (Slow) and Kurayami (Blind) for hate, since the :Ni line of those spells casts fast and they're more potent than your tier-1 Slow/Blind. Ninjas don't get Jubaku: Ni (Paralyze II), so if they're casting Jubaku: Ichi, it takes forever and is basically as potent as your Paralyze I, which takes you a fraction of a second to cast.

All in all, it's for you to judge. Always cast Dia/Dia II, but if the mob is only lasting a few seconds, don't bother with Slow/Para/Blind. This mostly happens 55+ from Lesser Colibri and on. Before then, judge the situation and cast what you think is necessary.
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#26ThePsychoticOne the Prophet, Posted: Dec 07 2009 at 4:34 AM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) No. Dia is sufficient to keep enfeebling capped (and you **** well better be casting it, if only the tier1 which is a measly 7 mp), or at least close. Recently i astral burned rdm from 48->55. My enfeeb skill was around 140 (cap is 147 at 48). Then i joined a party to get from 55->60, and got my enfeeb skill to 182; one less than the cap for 56. I casted nothing but dia2 (not that anything else would land with no gear anyway lol), and got that in a single party (casted it on 95%+ of lolibri). One more decently long party, and i could cap it probably.
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