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"Refresh please" might be gone forever. Follow

#1 Oct 21 2009 at 1:22 PM Rating: Default
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Upon checking out the new SMN update, it seems the days of RDM "Refreshers" might be behind us. Because with Ballad, Evoker, and now SMN's AoE refresh, we're losing that role, Thank God. Obviously I'm referring to endgame events like Dynamis, Einherjar, etc. So what do you all think?
#2 Oct 21 2009 at 1:38 PM Rating: Good
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WHAT.
#3 Oct 21 2009 at 1:48 PM Rating: Decent
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Yeah, that's not going to happen. Not only are SMNs not typically going to leave Diabolos out just so maybe a few people can gain the benefit of Refresh (people are going to want Ifrit's DA or bust), Favors do not will stack with other preexisting effects anyway.

well that was a ****** typo

Edited, Oct 21st 2009 6:31pm by Fynlar
#4 Oct 21 2009 at 2:11 PM Rating: Default
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Fynlar wrote:
Yeah, that's not going to happen. Not only are SMNs not typically going to leave Diabolos out just so maybe a few people can gain the benefit of Refresh (people are going to want Ifrit's DA or bust), Favors do not stack with other preexisting effects anyway.


I don't know about that. It makes more sense to stick mages with mages. A COR and BRD can do more with melees than mages. Any random parse will prove that fact. However, if you had a SMN as a refresh ***** in a BLM party with a lucky Evoker role equivalent, business is bound to pick up in those situations. RDM and WHM work best for co-healing and sharing haste duties, etc. Or swap the SCH in for the WHM, same thing. These new melee SMN buffs don't compare to what a COR can do if you include their melee attributes. Why have a DA buff from Ifrit when a COR can do it already with no negative stats? SMN avatar becomes weaker and therefore any damage they might do normally is lowered. It makes more sense to toss them with BLM's and just help heal with /whm mp pool.

However, besides PLD or NIN/drk tank parties, I think RDM is finally clear of most refresh duties now. I never thought I be around long enough to see that.
#5 Oct 21 2009 at 2:49 PM Rating: Good
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As long as it stacks, Refresh will still be asked for if there's a RDM in the party.

Which...

Quote:
Furthermore, enhancements received through this ability can be used in conjunction with those received via magic spells, songs, the Phantom Roll ability, and so forth.


...should be the case.


Also keep in mind that SMNs can only do one effect, and will either compromise on other benefits, or the effect will not be full-time. The wording on it seems to indicate that offensive aspects of avatars may be nerfed when their JA is active. Even with that aside, using another avatar for anything will mean resetting the effectiveness after a period of not having it on anyway. Plus, figure, SMNs can't rest with an avatar out, so at times they may need to take a knee and, poof, no more effect for a bit. It'll also mean party members need to be within a certain range.

Compared to that, Refresh is pretty reliable. Really, Refresh remains the most dependable, least intrusive party MP recovery buff. Unlike Evoker's Roll, it's always 3MP/tick. It doesn't mean the RDM can't cast a different buff on you like Ballad(s) do. You (or the RDM) can wander off wherever you please, or stand where you need to, and it's still there. Just recast ever 2.5 minutes.

Given all that, I really don't see Refresh going away. If your party lacks a RDM, sure, there are going to be more options than ever for MP recovery buffs...but if a RDM is there, why wouldn't you want 'fresh (outside of Sublimation)?
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#6ShadowedgeFFXI, Posted: Oct 21 2009 at 3:29 PM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) I don't believe it will stack, that's the point. Think about it for a moment. Sublimation probably doesn't stack with refresh because of how exploited it would be for WHM/sch and RDM/sch. Evoker, Refresh, and Ballad is enough stacking of mana regen. S~E said this new ability was Refresh, not Evoker or Ballad. So that means it won't stack with yag drinks, FoV refresh, or RDM refresh.
#7 Oct 21 2009 at 4:12 PM Rating: Good
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It implies avatar auras will stack with magic spells with similar enhancements. Otherwise, there'd be no point in talking about avatar enhancements being used in conjunction with spells, rolls, and songs.

The main thing I take from this update is that COR SMN BLM BLM BLM SCH is now completely awesome. I'd probably transfer the RDM to another party where they can heal a DD party or the tank party since it will be much easier for RDMs to refresh PLDs than have a SMN keep an avatar out for them. This is a bit premature though, since we don't know how widethe aura range is, etc.
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#8 Oct 21 2009 at 4:29 PM Rating: Decent
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Just realized I typoed my last post and made it completely contradict what I'm about to quote here...

update notes wrote:
While multiple favors of the same variety will not be stackable, a single party can benefit from as many types as there are summoners. Furthermore, enhancements received through this ability can be used in conjunction with those received via magic spells, songs, the Phantom Roll ability, and so forth.


If it turns out Refresh and Diabolos's Favor do not stack, RDMs should be ********* not celebrating.

I know I'll be ********* Refresh/Sublimation is still a sore spot for me, but at least with Sublimation they never originally said it would stack with Refresh.

Edited, Oct 21st 2009 6:31pm by Fynlar
#9 Oct 21 2009 at 4:32 PM Rating: Default
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ShadowedgeFFXI wrote:
Isiolia wrote:
As long as it stacks, Refresh will still be asked for if there's a RDM in the party.

Which...


I don't believe it will stack, that's the point. Think about it for a moment. Sublimation probably doesn't stack with refresh because of how exploited it would be for WHM/sch and RDM/sch. Evoker, Refresh, and Ballad is enough stacking of mana regen. S~E said this new ability was Refresh, not Evoker or Ballad. So that means it won't stack with yag drinks, FoV refresh, or RDM refresh.

lol?

3/tic refresh
2-4/tic evoker's
7/tic ballad
2/tic gear
1/tic sanction/sigil/vampyr

= 15~17/tic refresh

We can already stack ridiculous amounts of refresh. Another 3/tic doesn't really change much, especially since you'd need to keep a smn in the pt, which means your pt is already rdm, cor, smn, brd at which point you only have 2 spots for blms to take advantage of that refresh (since healers don't need anywhere near that much), and 15-17/tic for 3 blms >> 18-20/tic (assuming 3/tic diabolos) for 2.
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#10 Oct 21 2009 at 6:41 PM Rating: Good
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I don't believe it will stack, that's the point. Think about it for a moment. Sublimation probably doesn't stack with refresh because of how exploited it would be for WHM/sch and RDM/sch.


Probably, RDM/SCH in particularly.

This ability is level 55, not a concern for /SMN. The notes -specifically- say that the traits stack with magical buffs. Of the effects, only three have magical buff equivalents (Regen, Refresh, Protect).

I see no reason to think that it won't stack.
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#11 Oct 22 2009 at 12:45 AM Rating: Decent
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Ugh..another one of these posts.. lazy rdm is lazy..seriously if people leveling rdm and refuses to refresh, level another job... **** level summoner now that they can refresh...
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#12 Oct 22 2009 at 2:54 AM Rating: Decent
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As pointed out earlier, we can already stack more than enough refresh, I don't think this will effect RDMs nearly as much as it just opens up the usefulness of SMNs. I think implementation will be decided pending what avatar buffs stack with what pre-existing buffs, and the potency of the avatar buffs. Example: If DA is huge, expect to see SMN used in melee parties instead of mage parties during events.

RusticusSageo wrote:
Ugh..another one of these posts.. lazy rdm is lazy..seriously if people leveling rdm and refuses to refresh, level another job... **** level summoner now that they can refresh...

I'm sorry but... what? This topic is about Avatar's Favour replacing the need for RDM to refresh, I'm not sure where you are coming from.
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#13 Oct 22 2009 at 4:30 AM Rating: Default
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CrimsonSage wrote:
RusticusSageo wrote:
Ugh..another one of these posts.. lazy rdm is lazy..seriously if people leveling rdm and refuses to refresh, level another job... **** level summoner now that they can refresh...

I'm sorry but... what? This topic is about Avatar's Favour replacing the need for RDM to refresh, I'm not sure where you are coming from.

Avatar's Favour wont replace refresh. lets say your in the blm party at x event
do you not refresh a blm just because they have ballad?
In a typical blm party my ls uses rdm brd 4xblm with ballads refresh and haste kept active on all,

if you swap the brd for a smn you're gonna have diabolosfavor haste and refresh on all blms. smns wont replace a redmages refresh, if anything they'll free up brds and cors for the dd parties.

alternatively yes you could swap the rdm for a smn and have smn cor/brd 4xblm for hastega daibolos favor and evokers/ballad, freeing up the rdm for the tank party to refresh the paladins / healers. either way you'll probably still be refreshing one party or another.

Favours will add in my opinion add a fair amount of flexibility to events with that extra option for a refresher maybe some of those ppl that get stuck on brd/cor/rdm week in week out will finally be given an opportunity to use there other jobs once in a while. not a problem for me personallyi get to use most my jobs alot but i know a few people in my shells that get stuck on brd week in week out so i see this update as potentially good for them. if taking my smn means 1 of our bards can go melee for a change then i'm all for it.

Edited, Oct 22nd 2009 7:01am by Dzian
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#14 Oct 22 2009 at 4:42 AM Rating: Good
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Do we know whether or not the "Favor" Ability will be recognized as it's own distinct effect, the way songs, rolls and Signet/Sanction/Sigil are? That's the only way I see the Diabolos's Favor stacking with our own Refresh.

I didn't get the impression that it would be distinct, though. I got the impression that when activated, we'd see the generic "Refresh" icon, much the same as our spell and drinks. If so, it might not stack after all.

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#15 Oct 22 2009 at 5:12 AM Rating: Decent
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Quote:
Do we know whether or not the "Favor" Ability will be recognized as it's own distinct effect, the way songs, rolls and Signet/Sanction/Sigil are? That's the only way I see the Diabolos's Favor stacking with our own Refresh.

I didn't get the impression that it would be distinct, though. I got the impression that when activated, we'd see the generic "Refresh" icon, much the same as our spell and drinks. If so, it might not stack after all.


on playonline it says that it will stack with songs, spells and phantom rolls. It's safe to assume that it will stack with refresh since that's the only spell that grants mp regeneration.
#16 Oct 22 2009 at 5:16 AM Rating: Decent
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Quote:
Do we know whether or not the "Favor" Ability will be recognized as it's own distinct effect, the way songs, rolls and Signet/Sanction/Sigil are? That's the only way I see the Diabolos's Favor stacking with our own Refresh.

I didn't get the impression that it would be distinct, though. I got the impression that when activated, we'd see the generic "Refresh" icon, much the same as our spell and drinks. If so, it might not stack after all.


Read what I quoted above. >_>
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