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#2402 Oct 13 2010 at 1:50 AM Rating: Excellent
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Hey, if I'm gonna half-ass, I'm gonna HQ it by not HQing it.
#2403 Oct 13 2010 at 1:51 AM Rating: Good
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Maybe use hq body, and nq legs?
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#2404 Oct 13 2010 at 5:12 AM Rating: Decent
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Yes, of course, because I'm basing this solely on sword skill. Gear doesn't matter. BLU doesn't get spell bonuses. Nothin'.


BlU doesn't get that much different gear that we can't get christ almighty go spend 20 minutes in the wiki and compare the gear available to us. The reason I used Sword skill is because that is our base ACC if we are only 1% behind BLU there is not reason at all we can not match or come close to them in gear bonuses. BLU is not any better at melee than we are, get over it.

Or are you going to compare a sword WS to jobs that can't/don't use swords.

Edited, Oct 13th 2010 7:13am by rdmcandie
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#2405 Oct 13 2010 at 7:32 AM Rating: Good
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Yes, there are things all jobs can equip, but how anal are we going to be about maximization? As I can pretty much guarantee the "best" stuff won't be funneled off to melee RDMs. Hell, PLDs and BLUs likely wouldn't be a high priority, either.

For simplicity's sake, let's say they're all using the same waist (Warwolf), back (Cuch), rings (Strigoi/Rajas), earrings (Flame/Brutal), and a gorget. I get +22 STR, +15 DEX, +3 ATK, and +5 ACC before converting STR/DEX to their respective perks, too.

Now, if you wanted to pimp out STR, give them all Varingian Helm (+12) and Heafoc Mitts (+13). Not very likely, though. For head slots, PLDs can use Heca (+11) as an alternative. BLUs can use Aias Bonnet (+8). RDM's is reasonable alternative is Gnadbhod (+6), with Maat's Cap (+7) for the hardcore (which we know you're not), and Voyager Sallet (+4) for the average. The poor PLD will always have Perle (+5). Some of these have other mods like DEX, ATK, or ACC, but hey, I'll play your game and call ACC a wash. Overall, I'd say PLD's the winner in the head slot.

Moving on to bodies. RDM's STR options here are miserable. It's Nara/Vishnu only for +3/4 respectively. BLU has Aurore (+4), Enkidu (+5), AF(+1) (+3/5), Mirke (+5), and Nara/Vishnu again. In comes PLD to kick ass again. I won't list them all, but plenty have +5, Perle is +8, some have +11 and +12, Grim is +15/16. Only thing an average PLD may lose out on is a BLU who augmented Mirke with +10 ATK/ACC.

Hands are a fair fight with Heafoc ruled out. All three can use Alky's for +11.

STR in the leg slot doesn't see too many options for both RDM and BLU. Even for PLD, it's more likely they'll use it to shore up ACC. All 3 jobs can use some subligar with +8 STR, but they carry -10 ACC. PLD pulls ahead with options having both STR/ACC with Bahram Cuisses (5/12) while BLU's brother would be their AF3 pants (+8 STR) and their relic pants their little brother (3 STR/5 ACC). RDM? Well, you could use Dusk for ATK, Oily for ACC, or maybe you could've modified ASA pants with ACC, which isn't a shabby idea paired with the Haste option.

Feet for BLU has a number of +3/4 options. RDM's best is +3. PLD gets +5 from Perle as the poor man's. Clout boasts +9. Heca has +6 and they also have numerous +3 options.

Now, I dunno about you, but I see a lot of situations where you "average" RDM is gonna be in last place here against average others. As gear improves, PLDs pull further ahead on physical WS. RDM's physical WS options above don't exactly boast much DEX to help with Vorpal's crit rate if you're even subbed to use it while Perle/Heca carries that in modest amounts and BLUs can get their own share via Enkidu, Aurore, and others.

My claim is that physical WS don't exactly play to our strengths as healthy balances of stats are more difficult for us to achieve. We've seen Zaf talk about CDC and saying it's better than DB. That's cool. I don't doubt that. I'm glad, even. However, until he fiddles with gear (most likely DEX heavy) to see how it may differ to the set up I know he has, it stands to reason that PLD and BLU will outperform us on physical WS that aren't otherwise quirky. I know he's trying to get Razed Ruin Atma, too, which is a good move and something I've been trying to push my LS toward, as well.

If you wanna over-dramaticize my choice of "suffer" as a word to compare our gear to others, by all means keep doing so. All those little stats we don't get add up, though, and is more than enough fuel to get the parser crowd chirping while others just continue the blanket assertion that RDM melee offers nothing. If anything, consider my word choice an unspoken desire for better gear for us... which isn't a new request on my end, either.
#2406 Oct 13 2010 at 12:44 PM Rating: Decent
You should have picked a different word. If you think 15-20STR behind a PLD or 10-15STR behind a BLU is going to change anything to the point you are trying to make it seem, you re just whining for the sake of whining. You have DRK or some sh*t, so I understand your BN syndrome can extend to other jobs, thats cool. Even if this WS had a 100% STR mod you would have 60 or so more DMG per WS. Which is trumped by the average Red Mage in the DoT dept. Thanks to enpells. In the end us not having access to the same exact same STR as PLD or BLU is redundant, we are close, and in the end our melee DPS will always be higher (assuming you allow a RDM to play as a DD in a fair parse not support both these classes to make them better).

Essentially you seem to be QQing about being a few dozen damage behind other sword users on WS when during the TP phase we are several dozen damage ahead. Do you see the redundancy of your QQ. RDM in the end played in a DD role with equal gearing will always out perform both other sword jobs in terms of melee potential. Now before this thread gets derailed further If you want to continue this absurd fantasy you are living in lets take it to the RDM whats my purpose thread since its already full of 8 pages of redundant QQ.

Edited, Oct 13th 2010 2:45pm by rdmcandie
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#2407 Oct 13 2010 at 12:49 PM Rating: Decent
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Wonder Gem rdmcandie wrote:
RDM in the end played in a DD role with equal gearing will always out perform both other sword jobs in terms of melee potential.


Atonement PLD on high-end targets.
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#2408 Oct 13 2010 at 1:19 PM Rating: Good
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Essentially you seem to be QQing about being a few dozen damage behind other sword users on WS when during the TP phase we are several dozen damage ahead.


Except that BLU can cast exceptionally fast, damaging spells during the TP phase, putting them ahead by several hundred damage, depending how good they are. Any argument that compares RDM+Enspell+Haste+Composure to BLU without any spells is completely unrealistic, and therefore retarded.

Edited, Oct 13th 2010 3:22pm by LyltiaofLakshmi
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rdmcandie wrote:
RDM can attain an almost static 50% reduction to recast time, SCH can over shoot this for a total of 60% reduction under Alacrity (provided you are wearing loafers and keeping dark weather on yourself)

rdmcandie wrote:
MACC is a joke, any job with access to mage gear can hit close the MACC cap on legion mobs, which is why my BRD/RDM can land slow/para/blind despite having only 150 skill (from /RDM.)
#2409 Oct 13 2010 at 3:35 PM Rating: Decent
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^this
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#2410 Oct 13 2010 at 3:36 PM Rating: Decent
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Except that BLU can cast exceptionally fast, damaging spells during the TP phase, putting them ahead by several hundred damage, depending how good they are.


Its a good thing magic damage and melee damage are separate things then or Id be crazy wrong.Smiley: rolleyes
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#2411 Oct 13 2010 at 4:07 PM Rating: Good
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In other news

Razed Ruin: Mine
#2412 Oct 13 2010 at 4:31 PM Rating: Good
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#2413 Oct 13 2010 at 9:19 PM Rating: Excellent
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Rdmcandie wrote:
Its a good thing magic damage and melee damage are separate things then or Id be crazy wrong.


Rdmcandie wrote:
Thanks to enpells In the end us not having access to the same exact same STR as PLD or BLU is redundant, we are close, and in the end our melee DPS will always be higher (assuming you allow a RDM to play as a DD in a fair parse not support both these classes to make them better).


So, for the purpose of your argument, BLU spells count as magical damage (even when they don't), but enspells don't? That's some good analysis, there.
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rdmcandie wrote:
RDM can attain an almost static 50% reduction to recast time, SCH can over shoot this for a total of 60% reduction under Alacrity (provided you are wearing loafers and keeping dark weather on yourself)

rdmcandie wrote:
MACC is a joke, any job with access to mage gear can hit close the MACC cap on legion mobs, which is why my BRD/RDM can land slow/para/blind despite having only 150 skill (from /RDM.)
#2414 Oct 13 2010 at 9:38 PM Rating: Default
I see someone has never ever used a parser, or ever ever seen a BLU build azure lights. Enspells are classified as additional or other damage like all additional effect damage. BLU spells physical or magical are magic based damage. But you keep telling your self otherwise.
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#2415 Oct 13 2010 at 9:39 PM Rating: Good
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I just use Assault Jerkin for WS piece. On BLU or RDM. +18 attack is a pretty good chunk of attack, and I really think +18 attack would do a hell of a lot more then +3 or +4 str would.

RDM has BLU beat meleeing. When it comes to overall damage, BLU would win, naturally. We have access to the same exact swords they do, plus we get enspells. There is really nothing they have on us at all when it comes to melee. They also do not get a haste body as far as I know, where RDM can wear goliard.

edit

nvm, BLU can wear nashmira body. Goliard's still better though.

Edited, Oct 13th 2010 11:41pm by Zafire
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#2416 Oct 13 2010 at 10:19 PM Rating: Good
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Enspells are classified as additional or other damage like all additional effect damage. BLU spells physical or magical are magic based damage.


Of all the stupidly obvious things you pointed out, you forgot one: go hit a magic pot with an Enspell and see how much damage it deals unresisted. Just because it falls under one category doesn't mean it's exclusive to that category. Just because a BLU spell killshot generates an azure light in Abyssea, doesn't necessarily mean that it dealt magical damage. Also, parsers classify damage simply by how it appears in the log. That's it, and it has zero relevance.

Anyway back on track, you were basically saying that a pro melee RDM using every tool available to them will out-damage a BLU's melee DoT, which is an extremely unfair and therefore invalid comparison. Derail over, sorry to all.
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rdmcandie wrote:
RDM can attain an almost static 50% reduction to recast time, SCH can over shoot this for a total of 60% reduction under Alacrity (provided you are wearing loafers and keeping dark weather on yourself)

rdmcandie wrote:
MACC is a joke, any job with access to mage gear can hit close the MACC cap on legion mobs, which is why my BRD/RDM can land slow/para/blind despite having only 150 skill (from /RDM.)
#2417 Oct 14 2010 at 1:12 AM Rating: Good
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Wonder Gem rdmcandie wrote:
I see someone has never ever used a parser, or ever ever seen a BLU build azure lights. Enspells are classified as additional or other damage like all additional effect damage. BLU spells physical or magical are magic based damage. But you keep telling your self otherwise.
Of course, that's all irrelevant.
Zafire wrote:
There is really nothing they have on us at all when it comes to melee.
Mavi Kuvak. :(
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#2418 Oct 14 2010 at 10:59 AM Rating: Excellent
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Not to mention the ability to set ACC/ATK/DA traits regardless of sub, and of course the ability to self-SC (and set SC trait). Knocking off 90% of a mob's life can be fun. As for Goliard Body and Nashira, BLU can offset that 1% with Tiercel Necklace and plop a Sharpeye Mantle in the back slot if they're hurting for ACC lost in the neck slot. Could use some other combinations like Acubens Helm (Though Mavi is obviously better). Then again, there's Ocelot Legs for another 1% over Homam/Aurore, but I'm not sure I've seen anyone with those yet.

Just little things that add up and further cement my annoyance at the lack of melee stats on AF3 when we're still pretty much stuck with the same TPing gear we had at 75.
#2419 Oct 14 2010 at 11:25 AM Rating: Default
Nope apparantly taking things like that into consideration isn't fair, especially when you completely ignore that BLU has a lot more melee boosting factors than RDM but don't take my word for it....

tireless efficiency advocate wrote:

Anyway back on track, you were basically saying that a pro melee RDM using every tool available to them will out-damage a BLU's melee DoT, which is an extremely unfair and therefore invalid comparison.


By which of course I assume means Haste, Enspells, Composure, which is the same thing as saying Animating Wall, Spell Traits: ATK and DA, and of course Acc bonus, but fancier.

Sorry I just don't buy into the woe is us gambit. We are mathematically superior in melee because we have better gear options, with the same weapon options. In practice we lag behind but thats cuz DD BLU's and DD PLD's don't know what a Cure spell is, and if someone dies its the RDM's fault, not the PLD or BLU that each have a (Cure 3+ equivalent).

Just saying, we are fine by comparison we will out melee damage our nearest competitors, they balance it out with better damage elsewhere, in the case of PLD with Weaponskills (physical) and BLU spell damage. Thus we become one big ball of mediocre Damage.

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#2420 Oct 14 2010 at 11:32 AM Rating: Excellent
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We are mathematically superior in melee because we have better gear options


Keep tellin' yourself that. Maybe one day after a patch it'll be true.
#2421 Oct 14 2010 at 11:54 AM Rating: Decent
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So like, I press the button to get into the "What is our purpose" thread and I see a long discussion about RDM vs BLU melee and people occasionally calling each other names.

I decide I've had enough of that for now and want some cool pics of drops or w/e and so I press the button to get into the "Your Latest and Greatest Red Mage Accomplishment!!" thread, and lo and behold... here you guys are again. Was a bit confused there for a minute thinking I'd accidentally gone into the same thread again, but after double checking... no, no I didn't lol.

Not my forums or anything, but can't you at least try to stick to one thread when derailing? >.<
#2422 Oct 14 2010 at 12:08 PM Rating: Decent
I moved it earlier, some people are just to lazy to look.
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#2423 Oct 14 2010 at 11:29 PM Rating: Good
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#2424 Oct 15 2010 at 2:34 AM Rating: Good
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Got my Estoqueur's chappel +1!
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#2425 Oct 15 2010 at 9:35 PM Rating: Decent
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Obtained AF+1 hat and Goliard Saio.

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#2426 Oct 16 2010 at 1:20 AM Rating: Good
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Theurgia Clogs yay. 1/1
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#2427 Oct 16 2010 at 12:51 PM Rating: Good
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How difficult were those to get.
#2428 Oct 16 2010 at 12:52 PM Rating: Decent
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SlashAnonymous wrote:
Princess ThePsychoticOne wrote:
Eradico mitts <3


How difficult were those to get.
One KI drops from chests, the other from amun, which is an easy duo/solo. SW can be done with a few rdms pretty easy+quick, and it seems to be 100% (we're 5/5 atm). So, incredibly easy.
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#2429 Oct 16 2010 at 2:18 PM Rating: Decent
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I am convinced Chant du Cygne ignores level and does damage based entirely on mob defense. Chant du Cygne does 1100-1250 on level 60's, Death Blossom does 900-1k. Then I fight IT Lizards in Misraeux(sp?) where my Death Blossoms do 400~, and my Cygne's are doing 700-1.1k without a double attack. That makes absolutely no sense. I fought about fifty IT lizards or so too. Later that night I was doing VT Tonberry's in Konschtat to help my friend with her key item, and every cygne was in the 750-1.2k range on the BLM mobs, where Death Blossom was 500-600. There is absolutely no reason for that other then it simply ignores level difference. Maybe i'm wrong, idk. It sure as hell feels that way though.

I'm an abyssea gimp too, only +10 stats for the enhancements, and no atma's yet. Really need to finish ASA.

Edited, Oct 16th 2010 4:22pm by Zafire
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#2430 Oct 16 2010 at 2:23 PM Rating: Good
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Seems like it might ignore a portion of a monsters defense. Best test for that I would think are those new VT crabs, compare CDC's damage with and without shell guard up.
#2431 Oct 16 2010 at 4:00 PM Rating: Decent
or just spend 10 minutes in ballista areas with a friend.
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#2432 Oct 16 2010 at 6:27 PM Rating: Good
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Wonder Gem rdmcandie wrote:
or just spend 10 minutes in ballista areas with a friend.


WSs work under a different formula in ballista. You won't be able to get any exact numbers in ballista like how much defense it ignores or anything, but I do agree that ballista would certainly be the fastest way to find the trend of what's changing.

#2433 Oct 16 2010 at 6:46 PM Rating: Decent
you don't need exact numbers all you need to determine is if the WS changes based on the DEF of the mob. a RDM/BLU would be a good test target for pro 5 and cocoon.
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#2434 Oct 16 2010 at 8:27 PM Rating: Decent
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I think it simply cancel's the PDIF level check and goes primarily to your attack/mob def ratio. On WoE crabs (Which are level 80 or so, I don't get skillups on them) were doing less then they are to IT Lizards. It's just speculation i'd really have to do a lot of testing to figure it out.
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#2435 Oct 16 2010 at 9:29 PM Rating: Decent
To me it sounds like the WS has a wonky stat boost to it. Thats the only reason I can think it logically can maintain a high rate of DMG by comparison. Something like a 1.5x ATK value. Would explain the almost 2:1 damage difference at high levels vs low levels (where you likely capped out the total D.)

In both cases you would see them close on level 60 mobs as it would cap the pdif most likely why you see a damage difference of only about 200 (over 3 hits that is only 70DMG or so. 50/hit if you are DW.) If it does provide a 1.5X attack mod, then that would explain why it still peaks very high as you move up in level of mob while DB drops.

I think that is more likely than an ignores def other wise you should see the same damage on all mobs regardless of level as your pDif would always be capped.

Which would explain the likely difference as the levels progress. I put my money on an ATK multiplier not a def avoidance.

Edited, Oct 16th 2010 11:36pm by rdmcandie
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#2436 Oct 16 2010 at 10:39 PM Rating: Good
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...it's kinda hard to tell whether it's an attack multiplier or it ignores part of the targets defense because they are more or less the SAME THING. For example anything that pierces 50% of the monsters defense would pretty much be the exact same thing as something that doubles your attack (100/50) = (200/100). Even if something pierces defense it is still subject to level correction because iirc level correction is subtracted from Atk/Def.

The only differences you might see is if it increases your attack BEFORE some other multiplies takes effect like food (not likely) and that a WS that pierces Def would work slightly better if it additively stacked with other -def down effects (also not very likely).



Edited, Oct 17th 2010 12:42am by SlashAnonymous
#2437 Oct 17 2010 at 1:06 AM Rating: Decent
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I just think it ignores the level correction. Your PDIF takes a 0.05 hit for every level the mob is above you. I'm saying that Cygne ignores that. So you'd do the same damage to an EM crab that you would to an IT Lizard (Similar defense). It doesn't ignore attack or defence.

I did a quick test on Wajaom bee's. My attack on RDM isn't capped on them without food or dia III. Death Blossom was in the 800-900 range, Cygne was in the 850-1k range. Dia III and DB is 950-1k again, and cygne is 1.1-1.2k. If it had an attack or defense multiplier my attack would've been capped on Cygne.
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#2438 Oct 17 2010 at 1:11 AM Rating: Good
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I highly doubt it as no WS in the game has that atm but it would be totally awesome if it did.
#2439 Oct 17 2010 at 1:22 AM Rating: Decent
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I highly doubt it as no WS in the game has that atm but it would be totally awesome if it did.


I'm doubting it myself, but the numbers I was putting up on *IT* Lizards last night was just insane. I did a few Death Blossoms just to see what the numbers were like too. 400-450 compared to 750 minimum? And it's only a 150~ dmg difference on level 60's? That just doesn't make any damn sense. And cygne and DB both seem to take a hit just as equally on weaker stuff when I don't use Dia III or eat food. Was helping my friend with some trials earlier. Just did a few quick bee check's to make sure. I know exactly what my I need to cap attack on them.

Edited, Oct 17th 2010 3:24am by Zafire
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#2440 Oct 17 2010 at 1:27 AM Rating: Good
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I am dissapoint that 1.2k is all this WS does though compared to what other Emp WSs are doing.

Edit: I just had a crazy idea, can you test this for me but does the damage of this WS increase as your HP is lower.



Edited, Oct 17th 2010 3:51am by SlashAnonymous
#2441 Oct 17 2010 at 2:17 AM Rating: Decent
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I am dissapoint that 1.2k is all this WS does though compared to what other Emp WSs are doing.

Edit: I just had a crazy idea, can you test this for me but does the damage of this WS increase as your HP is lower.


Ya sure. I'm doing WoE right now, i'll vert and keep my hp at like 200 and pop it and see what it's like.

This WS has potential to do well over 2k if you got 2 crits and a double attack. One crit or DA puts me at 1475ish on lvl 60's.

I'll edit the result in this post in an hr or so.

nah, did a Cygne with 93hp and it was 660 damage to a WoE crab. Nothing unusual

Edited, Oct 17th 2010 5:28am by Zafire
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#2442 Oct 17 2010 at 4:29 AM Rating: Good
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Keep in mind he's lacking atmas while other WS numbers tend to boast users sporting Razing Ruin and Voracious Violet/Strong Arm or Sanguine Scythe, nor have we quite come to the conclusion that his gear is optimal for it. I'd say 2k+ should be possible under proper conditions, but I guess it's par for the course of the general mediocrity of sword WS against damage-minded counterparts. Even then, I'd say it'd be nice to get (doubly so if you're also a BLU and/or PLD user) if you can, but it kinda reiterates my frustration of possible melee acceptance requiring such drastic hoops to jump through to achieve.

Aside from some TA procs or def buffs on the WoE crabs, when I was messing with Zaf on my THF the other day the WS was proving comparable to my own without SA or TA. He did have a harder time keeping up with my TP gain if we were both hasted, but that doesn't surprise me all that much given casting eats up swing time and I didn't need to recast Utsu as much since I could decently evade them (sometimes going Ni > Ni).

Getting my taste of WoE, though, I do believe people would better off trying to tackle it in larger groups where you can take down the bosses and get more coins and loot from there. Ideally, the people should have different weapon goals to prevent coin overlap, but we don't live in a perfect world. Solo/Duo/Trio should be a last resort since we went something like 2/35 coins before I had to jump to LS activities.
#2443 Oct 17 2010 at 4:09 PM Rating: Good
Could be that it ignores mob level, never thought about that. IT i think is 8 levels above us which is -.40 with lvl correction or so. Which means on a three hit+1 DW that would give you a 1.6 increase in Damage. Adding Crits would give a near perfect 100% increase which would explain the huge change at IT.

EDT just for clarity 100% implies a 100% increase over DB thus resulting in the 2x damage effect Zaf has seen.

Edited, Oct 17th 2010 11:54pm by rdmcandie
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#2444 Oct 17 2010 at 11:08 PM Rating: Good
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Edited, Oct 18th 2010 1:08am by IcookPizza
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#2445 Oct 18 2010 at 4:26 AM Rating: Excellent
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Estoqueur's Fuseau +1: O

That fat galka can now go find someone else to mooch off of.
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#2446 Oct 19 2010 at 9:48 AM Rating: Decent
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#2447 Oct 19 2010 at 2:29 PM Rating: Decent
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Finally got my cape.
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#2448 Oct 19 2010 at 2:50 PM Rating: Excellent
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Finished Chappel +1.
#2449 Oct 19 2010 at 9:48 PM Rating: Excellent
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Wherwetrice stopped dropping WHM only finally? Grats! =D
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RDM can attain an almost static 50% reduction to recast time, SCH can over shoot this for a total of 60% reduction under Alacrity (provided you are wearing loafers and keeping dark weather on yourself)

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MACC is a joke, any job with access to mage gear can hit close the MACC cap on legion mobs, which is why my BRD/RDM can land slow/para/blind despite having only 150 skill (from /RDM.)
#2450 Oct 20 2010 at 8:51 AM Rating: Good
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Princess ThePsychoticOne wrote:
Finally got my cape.


How was the fight? How big was your party/alliance?
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#2451 Oct 20 2010 at 8:58 AM Rating: Decent
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yankeestom wrote:
Princess ThePsychoticOne wrote:
Finally got my cape.
How was the fight? How big was your party/alliance?
It's easy. Had around 12 people when i got it, but awhile ago i tried it with rdm/nin, brd/whm, blm/rdm, and it was easy, other than the terrorga->thundaga that wiped us at 4%. We would have won np if the brd was further away.
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