Red Mage 101Follow

i have yet another area attack to add to the list, one you probably haven't ever encountered yet in an XP party airspirit because of your level. another place to level at 70+ is in cape teriggan on the greater manticores near the cloister of gales area that's not on the map. you may have encountered it if any of your higher level onzozo parties took manticores on there, but they do a weapon skill called riddle. I can't remember exactly if the ones in different areas do either Max HP down or Max MP down, but the ones in teriggan did max MP down. one time there was a goblin coming up behind us mages so we were forced to move closer to the melees, and the manticore did riddle.. my mp was dropped to 180, not to mention the white mage who not only had his MP dropped but had to erase us all including me.

any way, if you want to insist red MAGES are useful meleeing that's up to you of course. but i'm sure the majority of other experienced MAGES would rather you sit back with them seeing as you're also a MAGE. as it is their mp that you're wasting by being effected by area attacks. even if you sub whm and can remove your own status effects, that's mp of your's that you could have used to remove one of the other melee's status effects to help the whm, which in turn means it was MP the whm could have saved.

it's not worth it.. it really isn't. if you want to show timestamped logs i could care less, let the actual melees do their job, they do it a lot better. maybe you've yet to party with a warrior doing sneak-attack/trick-attack steel-cyclone (understandable seeing as you're level 65 and it's a lv71 WS) but when you see damage numbers like what they do it just makes your little enblizzard damage look pointless... which it is.

i sincerely hope that as you get into the real higher levels, where the skill difference in weapons becomes greater and so on, that you'll see how pointless it is. my last party had a bard who had the lv71 dagger weapons skill evisceration, he did it whenever he got tp and it was laughable. it usually did around 30 damage. meanwhile our war/nin was hitting for more than that with every hit, and doing decimation for around 500dmg, followed by a sneak/trick spinning slash from the drk/thf for around 900 damage, and another 500-900 damage from light skillchain... and they have enough accuracy with their weapon skill cap that they have enough tp to do it by the time i'm done casting debuffs, and once they've done that followed by my thunder2 magic burst for close to 400dmg, it was time for me to start my refresh cycle, and by the time i was done with that the monster was either dead or at a sliver so i just rested at that point. the entire fight long i'm casting spells, there's rarely any time in there that i would have even swung my weapon, not to mention with the skill difference i'd probably miss 4 out of 5 times, and hit for under 10 damage...

again... i never said it's not possible... i said it's pointless, and inefficient... not worth it.


i also couldn't end this post without expressing my amusement toward the gentlemen who said there were frequently not enough melees seeking pt.

Joft, I don't see why you're so insistant that a Red Mage should NEVER melee. Yes, it is true that is would be a horrible idea why we shouldn't melee some mobs, like the Greater Manticore that you pointed out, but why are you so adamant about never meleeing?

I sub a mage, I only go for armor that boosts my mage stats, and I melee most of the stuff that I have been leveling on lately. I was doing 30+ damage a hit to Crawlers and Beetles. Neither of those mobs has an AOE (unless you count the beetles evasion down AOE, oh no!). Crabs have an AOE, but with barwater up, it usually does 20-40 damage.

Most intelligent people will fight things that don't have a nasty AOE. Yes, I think airspirit and any other rdm who will melee knows that you can't attack every mob. But when you can do it safetly, 300 extra damage to the mob never hurt anybody.

Yes, I understand that the gap between A and B skills will continue to increase. But not everyone here is 72. If they can be effective at melee at 30, 40, 50, or even 60, I don't think you have a right to tell them that they shouldn't melee just cause they can't later on.

airspirit listed several good reasons not to melee. I don't think any of them are that the word MAGE is in our name, and I agree with him.

Well, my Hornetneedle mission has now put four hornetneedles into the hands of red mages and one into the hand of a thief. If nobody else is interested I'll probably finish the last one tomorrow and call it quits ... I'm up to 29 hours into that hellhole and I'm finally burning out.

By the way, it is an amazing thing to watch a party containing four red mages rage on mobs ... it doesn't matter which way the aggro turns because we are all invincible, even those that con the bees as VT mobs.

I think he is referring to the level 150 and 175 Dagger Weapon Skills, Energy Steal and Energy Drain. With the small delay of 150 of the dagger, you can build up TP rather quickly.

Though...I am not sure how they work exactly. Does the monster you use them against have to have MP?

-Drachasor

The Hornetneedle is a 150 delay 16 dmg +1 DEX/AGI dagger. With haste on you attack about once per second allowing you to get around 100 TP in under 30 seconds. With Energy Steal that translates into 40 free MP and with Energy Drain about 60 ... not too shabby, really. Yes, the mob must have MP just like with aspir in order for it to work.

The other hidden advantage is in the 125 WS: Cyclone. At 300 TP it does some damn good damage to enemies, but it doesn't matter how many are in the area of effect: it'll do the same amount of damage to one or one hundred enemies. I'm almost tempted to try RDM/NIN with a Beestinger/Hornetneedle combo for AOE farming now and use Cyclone to mass kill ... I was experimenting with it last night and all it takes is attacking one mob in the group until your TP is up and then burning them all to the ground.

edit: jeebus, my troll must be really busy lately!

Edited, Sat May 15 18:32:16 2004 by airspirit

Bravo! I will be doing an update with some more information that has come to light and will make sure the wording on that is painfully clear: this is a more EFFECTIVE WAY to play the job but not the ONLY PROPER way to play it. There is a very noticable distinction. I will also further highlight for those that didn't notice that this covers levels 1-65, not the endgame levels, as I am not properly qualified to comment on something I have not experienced regardless of the observation I have done. I think this is where Joft is really missing the train: I will capitalize that part for those RDMs 70+ that didn't catch it the first time.

I will be adding two more solo/farming subjobs that are effective OUTSIDE OF PARTY PLAY with special equipment along with other fun things that will be sure to help ... I'll be making these additions as soon as I get another of my subs over 33 ... gotta be ready for my next XP push on my way to the Maat clusterfook.

can you most some macros for healing?
i'm new to this whole caster thing and can't figure it out

As I think I mentioned earlier I don't bother with healing macros ... there are other things IMHO that are more useful to have macroed for use such as nukes for bursts (who has time to fiddle with their list), debuffs (obviously), and the enspells (since you don't want to waste time throwing these back on in combat). I leave my heals in the following order in my spell list:

Refresh
Cure II
Cure III
Cure IV
Regen

and they are right at the top. It not only allows me to see the casting status of all of them while casting but leaves me open to other tricks while my spell list is open (over one and up is haste, up and left is sleep II, etc) that allow me to fast cast tons of spells. As far as targetting goes I just use the char list: select the spell then push the up or down arrows to select the right person. It took a lot of practice but now it is old hat and easy.

I use:

/ma "Cure" <stpc>

I don't think /recast on cures in needed, since the recast time is about a half-second longer than how long it takes to cast them. And since most of the time I'm not fighting undead, I find <stpc> preferable to <st>.

Khadgra

To be succesful as a RDM you need to have multiple sets of equipment. If you want to focus on the mage aspect (biggest part post 40 IMO), you will need massive mage gear. +INT, +MND, +MP. If you want to go toe to toe with the mobs (especially at higher levels) you will need accuracy gear up the wazzoooo. I've seen fully decked out melees miss often on the XP mobs at 61. Just imagine our plight at this level.

RDM isn't a cheap job. Its not as expensive as some other classes later on but it is expensive for the amount of gear we need and the stuff we need to swap in and out. I'm deciding if my +21 INT/+23 MND should be buffered additionally with 1 more +3 MND and +3 INT ring or if I should save the money and go for a mythic wand +1 and enfeeble torque for 65.

Decisions decisions decisions.

you CAN frontline but make sure you're not losing focus on your various duties as a rdm.. first and foremost. If you are slacking off on casting because of meleeing; or your stats are behind because you have melee gear equipped instead of casting gear then you are an idiot for ignoring people asking you to back off.

i'm not saying that is what you are doing, but just pointing it out. If they were asking you not to melee then obviously either 1: they're dumb or 2: you were slacking on your job.. if it was the latter you should back off.

interesting post on rdm meleeing here: http://boards.gamefaqs.com/gfaqs/genmessage.php?board=2000139&topic=14146524

Generally the topic creator expresses great contempt for meleeing rdm's. I would like to know the views of airspirit and other experienced rdm's on his claims.

Quite frankly the guy is an idiot. Though he won't admit it the one reason he is insisting on this is because he probably think it makes his job as a bard more difficult ... so rather than argue that and get pointed out as an idiot he's using all sorts of other fallacious arguments to try to make his point.

I was in a BRD party yesterday (PLD/DRG/THF/BRD/RDM/WHM) where we all meleed and we all had the proper songs on at all times. It just involved the mages following the bard for ballad a safe distance away and waiting until he was done with the melees. While this is too much for many to handle (it takes a bit of concentration, god forbid!) it works out nicely in the end.

The next party was PLD/DRK/RNG/RDM/BLM/SMN and due to some help from Fenrir I was doing 2/3 the melee damage of our DRK on Processionaires with a BLM sub ... but people like that ignorant fool can't seem to understand that our damage output can be quite decent at times. Seriously: in most cases I would tell the PLD to put his sword away before the RDM.

It's sad to see how much some redmages try to justify their melee damage because they want to swing their sword around.

Here's some reasons why most redmages don't melee, at 65 it should be obvious but here goes anyways.

1. You aren't regenning mana. If you can't manage time to regen mana while fighting, you should learn to. 1 Nuke can equal 500 points of damage without a mb and you can regen enough mana to have one spare nuke. If you think you are doing that much melee damage in a fight try to do the math and see. If you're doing more than that then chances are your fights are taking way too long.

2. AoEs and status effects. Good redmages aren't always at full hp so aoes can hurt. You're also the reason there's another silena or paralyna that has to be cast.

3. By not being engaged in the mob you are in a better position to see adds. Since rdms have decent hp and def we make excellent crowd control. Sure it can be done in combat status but that second or two can be the difference between a dead or alive whm or blm.

4. You don't hit a lot, melees don't hit a lot unless they are wearing a ton of +acc gear. Let me ask this, how long does it take you to build enough tp to WS, can you do it every fight? And you know sword weapon skills generally suck, even savage blade doesn't do that much damage. If you can't hit enough to do a WS once per fight then see point 1 again.

5. You should always have enough mana to MB. If you don't then you aren't doing your job.

6. You should also have enough mana to haste at least one real melee in the fights (real melee doesn't include yourself). Again mana conversation is key and regenning during a fight will help this. Again if you can't keep at least one melee hasted then again you aren't doing your job.

7. Even with one of the better swords out there my melee damage isn't hot, rdm melee damage is below paladin damage and paladins are pretty much the worst damage dealers. See point 1 again if you fail to understand this. I'm using an enhancing sword and even with that I don't consider the damage output worth it.

8. Generally brds I've met will be upset at rdms who melee since it makes their job much harder. Sure you can say it's a lazy brd, but the brd could say it's a bad rdm who wants to swing his sword instead of doing his job as a rdm.

9. How many times has your melee damage contributed to making chain or breaking chain5. I doubt it ever has considering the hit rate and damage output of a redmage. If you think it has, compare it to all the mana you could have saved and nuked the mob dead on chain 5.

10. If they rely on a redmage using a weapon skill for a skill chain, then obviously the group doesn't renkei enough.

11. As for the person who said our AF has melee oriented stats and we should melee, two things. One none of it is geared toward offensive melee damage so that in no way means we should melee. It's all defense, no +att no +sword, no nothing with regards to damage output (I think it was designed for when we solo who knows). Also, take a look at AF2 stats...SE obviously realized the role of redmages and adjusted AF2 according (it's all mage bonuses).

12. You can't wear effective melee and mage gear at the same time and generally you want the want for +int for MB and nuking and +mnd and int for debuffing. If youre' fighting anything remotely tough, you want any edge in debuffing you can get. Plus the +int helps the MB damage. Sure you can swap out but then you lose any of your nonexistent TP again.

Redmages are fundamental in controlling the flow and rate of xp. By careful using and conserving mana usage, we can add damage or healing as needed. Trying to melee gives a lower damage output versus the amount of damage that could be used nuking. It also cuts down on the amount of mana you have for extra healing, buffing, etc.

Speaking as a 74 rdm, and having talked to a lot of people I've yet to hear one group say they like having a rdm who melees past 50. They may not tell you because they need a rdm, but most party members don't like it and think it's a poor rdm. Just because you don't have trouble getting invites doesn't mean you're any good or what you're doing is that beneficial. Rdms like brds are fundamental to decent xp so even a bad one is usually better than none at all.

Sure you can think you're helping with the melee damage but in reality you're probably being less efficient than you could be.

That post makes me laugh. All of my parties love it when I melee. First, it SAVES MP. If you're refreshing, debuffing, dispelling, and enhancing as you should (not to mention healing as needed) then you will never have a chance to rest. If you do then you are simply not doing your job. Further, as a 65 RDM, there is not a single spell in our arsenal that can hit over 400 HP damage regardless of equipment, ES, or anything: Stone III is as good as it gets. Consider that Stone III costs a bit under 100 MP and that I hit for an average of 30+8 damage (nothing on but accuracy gear). Average hit for Stone III at this level with full mage gear as a Taru will hit for around 335 damage. Now it is time to do the math: if you're standing to cast you can either do melee damage or not ... there is nothing there that penalizes you outside of non-conic AOE attacks, so why not attack? Now, you could stand back and neglect some of your duties and nuke like hell and then rest the MP back up or you can get that same damage dealt for free from your sword. It doesn't take a mental giant to figure that out.

As for melee performance, I just point to the 70-75 RDMs that are soloing HNMs and avatars. While in party play it may wane again, at 65 and under it makes no sense not to melee.
As for AOEs, what's the biggie? There aren't many mobs that can do AOEs dangerous to us (that we should be fighting, at any rate) ... those that do minor damage AOEs are usually fixed through Curaga spells anyway not hurting the party at all. As far as our hitpoints go, I never have a problem with them ... but that is because I play smart.

As for bards, they just have to do their thing and leave us to ours. I never fight locked onto the mob, so if I see the BRD moving to the mages I head over as well. If he starts playing melee songs I back off. It isn't hard if you're not lazy. Good bards come to grips with this very easily when they realize the red mage is following their lead.

Now, I don't know what kind of crap equipment you're using, but I've never been outdamaged by a paladin. This isn't a big deal, since they do crap damage anyway, but I usually beat them by around a 50% margin. Telling me to back away is more insane then telling the PLD to put their weapon away.

As for controlling the rate of XP and MP you are 100% right, but have you considered how inefficient it is to count on elemental magic for damage as a red mage? You can drop 500 damage elemental spells, sure, but only at the cost of 130+ MP that should have been spent in other ways.

Edited, Wed May 19 17:09:45 2004 by airspirit

i wouldn't group with anyone who bases everything they do on any guide.. guides to jobs/classes in mmorpgs are for 1 purpose and 1 purpose only.. to show advantages and disadvantages to certain styles. it's up to the player to decide hwo he uses that info.

there is no guaranteed way to play any job; red mage included. No guide can be 100% geared to show how to play a job perfect. the original post, and the discussions we've had in the 200+ responses to this thread is great information for red mages to read through and base their choice of how they play their red mage.

I do this with lower level players as well, particularly ones in my linkshell. I follow them out and we tweak things to the point of perfection and speed ... it is what I do.[quote][/quote]

All i have to say is you have way yo much time on your hands. If you actually go out and critique your shell to perfection your making this game boring. It is supposed to be about to bobbles that you sometimes make. A person can only play in their own fashion. You should be happy everyone wants you and that everyone knows your name but i am sure their is a mage on another server just as good or better. You are in one little vana'dielian sector. I agree that the post is good but you are way to opinionated and just flat out rude to other races. I am however a hume red mage but my best friend who is an elvaan red mage can mage better then mages 5 lvls higher then him. It is all about how it works best for you not someone else.

35RDM - 25WHM - 10 BLM

I'd just to add my opinion...

RDM should not melee expect when farming.

AoE's aren't the only reason.

BTW No matter how much you hit a monster for you're still given it the same amount of TP.

But like I was saying, I don't want some RDM doing his leet 12+10 damage every 10 swings so the bat can build up TP to do Jet Stream to my paladin, so all the mages can Spam cure on him..

Waste of MP
Waste of MP = Downtime

When I train 6 tw mobs on myself, I dont look forward to their beating on me as a source of tp. I would think the mobs primary tp is from its attacks on players.
Meaning that the special attacks you recieve are your own damn fault for not letting a ninja tank.

Since I hit as hard (often harder) than most plds, I'll put away my sword when you put away yours.

What is ironic about the whole TP debate is when you are up against HNMs that take an obscenely long time to kill such as King Behemoth. On these you will typically find that only the hardest hitting melee ever engage (assuming any were invited in the first place) the enemy: the paladin will only use skills to keep hate rather than use melee too since this is a case where those 2.5/hit gains will really stack up and the WS of those mobs are devastatingly lethal in ways that mobs you fight in XP parties are not. Bickering over 20-50 TP that the mob gains during a fight is absurd ... if your red mage is providing enough TP for the mob to pull off an additional weaponskill then you shouldn't be XPing off of that mob since that means your fights are hitting over 3-3.5 minutes each at the very least.

you shouldn't have been behind, typically non trick people in PT stay on eihter side of the mob.. that way that won't happen :p

I don't care if a RDM melees. I mean, i guess thats what their En-spells for, so they can melee. But if that RDM whines about a WHM meleeing, they should be /slapped a billion times. Hexa-Strike > any WS a RDM can get.

Edited, Fri May 21 04:26:28 2004 by Kunotron

Actually, from my understanding, heaving hitting weapons are rarely used against alot of the harder HNMs, due to their ridiculous damage mitigation. Most often, everyone has swords, builds TP on random trash around you, then unleash's a 300% Spirit's Within, and back again, with the only person/people chain meleeing the HNM being the Tank/tanks specifically to avoid that.

I like to refer to them as "Fodder" actually...

pay attention to when he is moving back to do ballad and unlock yourself from the mob(* on numpad) and move back to get ballad.