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#202 May 14 2004 at 4:18 PM Rating: Good
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i have yet another area attack to add to the list, one you probably haven't ever encountered yet in an XP party airspirit because of your level. another place to level at 70+ is in cape teriggan on the greater manticores near the cloister of gales area that's not on the map. you may have encountered it if any of your higher level onzozo parties took manticores on there, but they do a weapon skill called riddle. I can't remember exactly if the ones in different areas do either Max HP down or Max MP down, but the ones in teriggan did max MP down. one time there was a goblin coming up behind us mages so we were forced to move closer to the melees, and the manticore did riddle.. my mp was dropped to 180, not to mention the white mage who not only had his MP dropped but had to erase us all including me.

any way, if you want to insist red MAGES are useful meleeing that's up to you of course. but i'm sure the majority of other experienced MAGES would rather you sit back with them seeing as you're also a MAGE. as it is their mp that you're wasting by being effected by area attacks. even if you sub whm and can remove your own status effects, that's mp of your's that you could have used to remove one of the other melee's status effects to help the whm, which in turn means it was MP the whm could have saved.

it's not worth it.. it really isn't. if you want to show timestamped logs i could care less, let the actual melees do their job, they do it a lot better. maybe you've yet to party with a warrior doing sneak-attack/trick-attack steel-cyclone (understandable seeing as you're level 65 and it's a lv71 WS) but when you see damage numbers like what they do it just makes your little enblizzard damage look pointless... which it is.

i sincerely hope that as you get into the real higher levels, where the skill difference in weapons becomes greater and so on, that you'll see how pointless it is. my last party had a bard who had the lv71 dagger weapons skill evisceration, he did it whenever he got tp and it was laughable. it usually did around 30 damage. meanwhile our war/nin was hitting for more than that with every hit, and doing decimation for around 500dmg, followed by a sneak/trick spinning slash from the drk/thf for around 900 damage, and another 500-900 damage from light skillchain... and they have enough accuracy with their weapon skill cap that they have enough tp to do it by the time i'm done casting debuffs, and once they've done that followed by my thunder2 magic burst for close to 400dmg, it was time for me to start my refresh cycle, and by the time i was done with that the monster was either dead or at a sliver so i just rested at that point. the entire fight long i'm casting spells, there's rarely any time in there that i would have even swung my weapon, not to mention with the skill difference i'd probably miss 4 out of 5 times, and hit for under 10 damage...

again... i never said it's not possible... i said it's pointless, and inefficient... not worth it.


i also couldn't end this post without expressing my amusement toward the gentlemen who said there were frequently not enough melees seeking pt.
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#203 May 14 2004 at 4:22 PM Rating: Default
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i also couldn't end this post without expressing my amusement toward the gentlemen who said there were frequently not enough melees seeking pt.


i actually kinda laughed at that too >.<
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#204 May 14 2004 at 7:16 PM Rating: Decent
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Joft, I don't see why you're so insistant that a Red Mage should NEVER melee. Yes, it is true that is would be a horrible idea why we shouldn't melee some mobs, like the Greater Manticore that you pointed out, but why are you so adamant about never meleeing?

I sub a mage, I only go for armor that boosts my mage stats, and I melee most of the stuff that I have been leveling on lately. I was doing 30+ damage a hit to Crawlers and Beetles. Neither of those mobs has an AOE (unless you count the beetles evasion down AOE, oh no!). Crabs have an AOE, but with barwater up, it usually does 20-40 damage.

Most intelligent people will fight things that don't have a nasty AOE. Yes, I think airspirit and any other rdm who will melee knows that you can't attack every mob. But when you can do it safetly, 300 extra damage to the mob never hurt anybody.

Yes, I understand that the gap between A and B skills will continue to increase. But not everyone here is 72. If they can be effective at melee at 30, 40, 50, or even 60, I don't think you have a right to tell them that they shouldn't melee just cause they can't later on.

airspirit listed several good reasons not to melee. I don't think any of them are that the word MAGE is in our name, and I agree with him.
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#205 May 14 2004 at 7:44 PM Rating: Decent
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I know about that WS. It sucks. The answer is to fight things more suitable. It's just like low 50s that level on spiders ... when they get one shotted by sickle slash it is their own fault. Fight something else. Not too hard.

As for Fairy, there IS a serious lack of melees ... it sucks. That is normally what my parties wait for anymore. There are so many mages and support chars that it isn't even funny ... it is disheartening looking at the seek log and half the people are RDMs or BRDs.

edit: so you resort to trolling people because they point out your bad decisions? How immature.

Edited, Sat May 15 03:20:29 2004 by airspirit
#206 May 15 2004 at 12:28 AM Rating: Decent
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Well, my Hornetneedle mission has now put four hornetneedles into the hands of red mages and one into the hand of a thief. If nobody else is interested I'll probably finish the last one tomorrow and call it quits ... I'm up to 29 hours into that hellhole and I'm finally burning out.

By the way, it is an amazing thing to watch a party containing four red mages rage on mobs ... it doesn't matter which way the aggro turns because we are all invincible, even those that con the bees as VT mobs.
#207 May 15 2004 at 2:32 AM Rating: Decent
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you put one enter in there....

GOOD JOB BUDDY

i didnt read your post besides the ONE paragraph you did properly space which was my quote.

I added 4 paragraphs between the main topic changes and I don't have a quote from you at all. I don't wtf your problem is but just because my paragraphs

aren't

spaced

like

this doesn't mean they aren't there.
I'm sorry for ruining your day with my horribly mistaken standard English format for paragraph spacing which is 1 enter after each paragraph, not 2.







I hope this is good enough for Mr. Perfect.
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Quote:
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i also couldn't end this post without expressing my amusement toward the gentlemen who said there were frequently not enough melees seeking pt.
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i actually kinda laughed at that too >.<





Am I spacing enough or you now?? You're not on my server, that's why you apparently don't have that problem. At some level ranges on my server there are mage shortages, namely 15-35, and I am now at the point where it has switched to melee shortage. I frequently have to wait around for more than an hour with a WHM BLM and some random other for a tank or dmg dealer. I didn't say that exact situation would come up for everyone, I was giving an example of when RDM ARE used as TA partners. And just exactly how could you laugh at that part if you didn't even read my post for it's evil evil lack of paragraph spacing, hmmm?


Airspirit, much respect for your eleemosynary NM hunting. Can you explain more about the weapon itself? You were talking about 60 mp every 30 seconds, am I misreading, or is there an aspir effect not listed under the description on this site?




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#208 May 15 2004 at 3:50 AM Rating: Good
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Halion wrote:
Airspirit, much respect for your eleemosynary NM hunting. Can you explain more about the weapon itself? You were talking about 60 mp every 30 seconds, am I misreading, or is there an aspir effect not listed under the description on this site?


I think he is referring to the level 150 and 175 Dagger Weapon Skills, Energy Steal and Energy Drain. With the small delay of 150 of the dagger, you can build up TP rather quickly.

Though...I am not sure how they work exactly. Does the monster you use them against have to have MP?

-Drachasor
#209 May 15 2004 at 7:18 AM Rating: Default
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If nobody else is interested I'll probably finish the last one tomorrow and call it quits


wish i could get on but having problems w/ credit card and i havn't been able to get on for the past 2 weeks ;(

Quote:
I hope this is good enough for Mr. Perfect.


dont see why you're being so defensive. If you are gonna type it all in one clump(which your post still is btw; all one clump) i'm not going to read it, and still havn't read it.

Quote:
how could you laugh at that part if you didn't even read my post for it's evil evil lack of paragraph spacing, hmmm?


i did skim it, i didnt read it as in read the whole post.

Edited, Sat May 15 08:20:00 2004 by Smurv
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#210 May 15 2004 at 10:29 AM Rating: Decent
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The Hornetneedle is a 150 delay 16 dmg +1 DEX/AGI dagger. With haste on you attack about once per second allowing you to get around 100 TP in under 30 seconds. With Energy Steal that translates into 40 free MP and with Energy Drain about 60 ... not too shabby, really. Yes, the mob must have MP just like with aspir in order for it to work.

The other hidden advantage is in the 125 WS: Cyclone. At 300 TP it does some damn good damage to enemies, but it doesn't matter how many are in the area of effect: it'll do the same amount of damage to one or one hundred enemies. I'm almost tempted to try RDM/NIN with a Beestinger/Hornetneedle combo for AOE farming now and use Cyclone to mass kill ... I was experimenting with it last night and all it takes is attacking one mob in the group until your TP is up and then burning them all to the ground.

edit: jeebus, my troll must be really busy lately!

Edited, Sat May 15 18:32:16 2004 by airspirit
#211 May 15 2004 at 3:46 PM Rating: Good
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To once again bring up the eternal debate that is "To melee or not to Melee", The thing I think that seems to be the problem is that RDMs are gifted by using the blade, and so many neglect it.
Lets think about something, when your fighting a mob, you want to put your all into it(with a resonable amount of reserve, dont want to blow your entire MP reserve in one shot), if it means that you can even add a small amount of dmg with your sword, reguardless if your dmg was an ant, a SAM's would be Big Ben, every little bit helps. But I'm not saying that just because I melee and you dont makes you a piece of crap and me Ubergod. If you can find someway to compensate, or better, Congradufreakalations to you. I don't give a hoot.

Also I would like to address the flaming within the digital walls of this thread. Lets try to not be offensive, I swear sometimes this thread sounds like a bad Rap CD. If we are going to seriously debate a topic, let us atleast compose ourselfs as gentlemen/ladies and not like a bunch of 3rd grade bickering schoolgirls. For christ's sake people its a bloody game, One way may be more efficient then the other or one race might be able to wear better gear then the other but for all of our sakes if your going to gripe and complain or flame at least be CIVILIZED.
If you dont like something, dont be like "u suxx0r u n00b i r 1377" or "your a fking idiot your so stupid flame flame flame ooo look at me im a little girl that whines and btches about everything".

Another thing is that I dont think that this can be named as "the proper way to play a RDM", I think that this is more so a way to effectively play the RDM class, if you want to do it another way, good for you, go right ahead. Another thing is that this is a GAME, and games are made to have FUN, I dont understand how people can get so stuck up just because they have a different way to do something, sure unless you are a good functioning character,you'll never get a party, and this is a game that doesnt focus on soloing, I dont know of many MMORPG's that focus on soloing anyway. But how ever you want to play, go play that way, I dont care and if someone else does, well poot on them, play how you want to, go ahead, GAMES ARE MADE TO PLAY AND TO HAVE FUN WITH.

And now I'd like to appologize for reviving a topic that will probally span another 5 or 6 pages but its just something I had to get off my chest after reading all the posts of peoples flames and other things, I would also like to say that Mr. Airspirit for putting your head on the cutting table and telling the butcher to swing, you have put alot on the line and you have sucessfully defended yourself against every wave of attack.
Shiva must be like the Desert server or something, cause if your RDM with a decent lvl sub, people come after you. Reguardless if your a "caster RDM" or a "Melee RDM".

Only advantage that I feel that Mithra have over Humes: They sure as hell look alot better in the AF then I ever would.
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#212 May 15 2004 at 5:30 PM Rating: Decent
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Bravo! I will be doing an update with some more information that has come to light and will make sure the wording on that is painfully clear: this is a more EFFECTIVE WAY to play the job but not the ONLY PROPER way to play it. There is a very noticable distinction. I will also further highlight for those that didn't notice that this covers levels 1-65, not the endgame levels, as I am not properly qualified to comment on something I have not experienced regardless of the observation I have done. I think this is where Joft is really missing the train: I will capitalize that part for those RDMs 70+ that didn't catch it the first time.

I will be adding two more solo/farming subjobs that are effective OUTSIDE OF PARTY PLAY with special equipment along with other fun things that will be sure to help ... I'll be making these additions as soon as I get another of my subs over 33 ... gotta be ready for my next XP push on my way to the Maat clusterfook.
#213 May 15 2004 at 6:15 PM Rating: Decent
Thanks Airspirit,

< Longtime lurker here, but I had to come out of the shadows to tell you how valuable and appreciated your insight is.

I find it disheartening that people who disagree have to come in here and trash your input, as it is obviously a result of a lot of work and passion for the class.

For those of you that statement applies to, try contributing your own expertise without so much virulence. Your tirades make any decent input you may have transparent in the glaring light of your petty bs.

Look foward to more intelligent discussion, particularly your ideas on the subjobs .. I always enjoy out of the ordinary ways to achieve things I once thought impossible ;)

#214 May 17 2004 at 11:48 AM Rating: Decent
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can you most some macros for healing?
i'm new to this whole caster thing and can't figure it out
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#215 May 17 2004 at 12:36 PM Rating: Good
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Healing Macro I have switched to (here's the Cure II version):

 
/recast "Cure II" 
/ma "Cure II" <st> 
/p Casting Cure II on <lastst> 


/recast "Spell Name" will send you a message giving you how long you need to wait to recast that spell. The message is given just like it was a /echo, so the party isn't bothered.

/ma "spell name" target
This is the general form of casting a spell. You name the spell and specify the targert. <st> will give you a purple curser to target someone with, this leaves your regular curser still targeting the enemy (which is where you want it, no matter what job you are). Then you can use the F1-F6 keys to target someone in the party, and cast your spell on them. Very handy, and this is very fast.

/p Casting Cure II on <lastst>
This tells the party what you are doing and who you are doing it to. It is easier to pick up than the action messages (which some people filter). <lastst> will name the target of the last <st> target you chose, in this case, the person you are curing. When used as a target in a spell or other ability command, it will accept <lastst> as a valid target, but all target tags (<t>, <st>, <stpc>, <stnpc>, <bt>) will give the name of the target if used in some sort of talking command (like /p or /s, or whatever).

One more nice thing about this technique is that if you decide not to cast the spell and cancel the <st> selection process, the rest of the macro *does not run* so you don't spam the party a useless message. Also, with the /recast feature, you can time your spell casting so that you won't try casting before the timer is up.

-Drachasor
#216 May 17 2004 at 12:46 PM Rating: Good
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As I think I mentioned earlier I don't bother with healing macros ... there are other things IMHO that are more useful to have macroed for use such as nukes for bursts (who has time to fiddle with their list), debuffs (obviously), and the enspells (since you don't want to waste time throwing these back on in combat). I leave my heals in the following order in my spell list:

Refresh
Cure II
Cure III
Cure IV
Regen

and they are right at the top. It not only allows me to see the casting status of all of them while casting but leaves me open to other tricks while my spell list is open (over one and up is haste, up and left is sleep II, etc) that allow me to fast cast tons of spells. As far as targetting goes I just use the char list: select the spell then push the up or down arrows to select the right person. It took a lot of practice but now it is old hat and easy.
#217 May 17 2004 at 1:12 PM Rating: Good
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Well, I use a lot of different macros...I have many pages of macros filled up. My Nukes are one set, my enfeebles are another, and my healings were a third. Now that I have drastically reduced my healings (13 down to 3 on the Cure line), I have more room to play around with that set.

In case anyone didn't know ctrl-shift-# switches the current macro set to the # set. Very handy. Still, it does require organization otherwise you get into trouble.

-Drachasor
#218 May 17 2004 at 2:49 PM Rating: Decent
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I use:

/ma "Cure" <stpc>

I don't think /recast on cures in needed, since the recast time is about a half-second longer than how long it takes to cast them. And since most of the time I'm not fighting undead, I find <stpc> preferable to <st>.
#219 May 17 2004 at 3:33 PM Rating: Decent
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I liked that guide but the only thing i saw that bothered me was the fact that i should be changin my equipment for every lil thing. I mean i dont think ill carry around a wand, sword, dagger, cloak, tunic, and robe just for different occasions. No thanks but i have about 250k into my equip, not milllions into different kinds.

Thx airspirit, u a smart guy.
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#220 May 18 2004 at 4:09 AM Rating: Decent
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Khadgra

To be succesful as a RDM you need to have multiple sets of equipment. If you want to focus on the mage aspect (biggest part post 40 IMO), you will need massive mage gear. +INT, +MND, +MP. If you want to go toe to toe with the mobs (especially at higher levels) you will need accuracy gear up the wazzoooo. I've seen fully decked out melees miss often on the XP mobs at 61. Just imagine our plight at this level.

RDM isn't a cheap job. Its not as expensive as some other classes later on but it is expensive for the amount of gear we need and the stuff we need to swap in and out. I'm deciding if my +21 INT/+23 MND should be buffered additionally with 1 more +3 MND and +3 INT ring or if I should save the money and go for a mythic wand +1 and enfeeble torque for 65.

Decisions decisions decisions.
#221 May 18 2004 at 3:20 PM Rating: Decent
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Thank you so much. Rate up! I needed this. I have always been on the frontline and I have people saying 'Back up, you aren't a front line fighter' and so forth. I don't think we would get our En spells for nothing. I'm so glad to hear that I'm not an idiot for ignoring them. As a Mithra, I take no damage most of the time so I like to contribute.
I'm trying to be the best RDM I can be, so come find me on Carbuncle!

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#222 May 18 2004 at 4:14 PM Rating: Default
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Quote:
Thank you so much. Rate up! I needed this. I have always been on the frontline and I have people saying 'Back up, you aren't a front line fighter' and so forth. I don't think we would get our En spells for nothing. I'm so glad to hear that I'm not an idiot for ignoring them


you CAN frontline but make sure you're not losing focus on your various duties as a rdm.. first and foremost. If you are slacking off on casting because of meleeing; or your stats are behind because you have melee gear equipped instead of casting gear then you are an idiot for ignoring people asking you to back off.

i'm not saying that is what you are doing, but just pointing it out. If they were asking you not to melee then obviously either 1: they're dumb or 2: you were slacking on your job.. if it was the latter you should back off.
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#223 May 18 2004 at 11:04 PM Rating: Decent
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More detailed subjob pro/cons for the newer RDMs has been added. Most of this is old hat to the higher level folks.
#224 May 19 2004 at 5:49 AM Rating: Decent
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interesting post on rdm meleeing here: http://boards.gamefaqs.com/gfaqs/genmessage.php?board=2000139&topic=14146524

Generally the topic creator expresses great contempt for meleeing rdm's. I would like to know the views of airspirit and other experienced rdm's on his claims.
#225 May 19 2004 at 7:49 AM Rating: Decent
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Scroll down about 10 pages.
People already pointed to Airspirits post and a few others, but he seems to be upset when rdms in general.

Im not sure why people bother responding to a person who ends every post with "you suck!".
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#226 May 19 2004 at 10:03 AM Rating: Decent
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Quite frankly the guy is an idiot. Though he won't admit it the one reason he is insisting on this is because he probably think it makes his job as a bard more difficult ... so rather than argue that and get pointed out as an idiot he's using all sorts of other fallacious arguments to try to make his point.

I was in a BRD party yesterday (PLD/DRG/THF/BRD/RDM/WHM) where we all meleed and we all had the proper songs on at all times. It just involved the mages following the bard for ballad a safe distance away and waiting until he was done with the melees. While this is too much for many to handle (it takes a bit of concentration, god forbid!) it works out nicely in the end.

The next party was PLD/DRK/RNG/RDM/BLM/SMN and due to some help from Fenrir I was doing 2/3 the melee damage of our DRK on Processionaires with a BLM sub ... but people like that ignorant fool can't seem to understand that our damage output can be quite decent at times. Seriously: in most cases I would tell the PLD to put his sword away before the RDM.
#227 May 19 2004 at 1:31 PM Rating: Good
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The reason, alot of people say "You're a Red Mage, you should never melee" is because....it's 100X easier to say "Just...don't melee and focus on casting" than it is to teach all the nuances of casting while meleeing.

Most of those nuances, timing, etc, you can never teach accurately. Many are very difficult to explain, and as some red mages get higher level...they just "Know" when to melee, when not to, and why, and what spells to throw in what order. It's that experience thing going, the more you play the job, the more unspoken nuances you learn that are nearly impossible to teach. Because of this, and because so many end up doing melee at the cost of concentration or keeping their mage duties up to date, many people just tell them to focus ONLY on casting.
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#228 May 19 2004 at 1:49 PM Rating: Decent
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It's sad to see how much some redmages try to justify their melee damage because they want to swing their sword around.

Here's some reasons why most redmages don't melee, at 65 it should be obvious but here goes anyways.

1. You aren't regenning mana. If you can't manage time to regen mana while fighting, you should learn to. 1 Nuke can equal 500 points of damage without a mb and you can regen enough mana to have one spare nuke. If you think you are doing that much melee damage in a fight try to do the math and see. If you're doing more than that then chances are your fights are taking way too long.

2. AoEs and status effects. Good redmages aren't always at full hp so aoes can hurt. You're also the reason there's another silena or paralyna that has to be cast.

3. By not being engaged in the mob you are in a better position to see adds. Since rdms have decent hp and def we make excellent crowd control. Sure it can be done in combat status but that second or two can be the difference between a dead or alive whm or blm.

4. You don't hit a lot, melees don't hit a lot unless they are wearing a ton of +acc gear. Let me ask this, how long does it take you to build enough tp to WS, can you do it every fight? And you know sword weapon skills generally suck, even savage blade doesn't do that much damage. If you can't hit enough to do a WS once per fight then see point 1 again.

5. You should always have enough mana to MB. If you don't then you aren't doing your job.

6. You should also have enough mana to haste at least one real melee in the fights (real melee doesn't include yourself). Again mana conversation is key and regenning during a fight will help this. Again if you can't keep at least one melee hasted then again you aren't doing your job.

7. Even with one of the better swords out there my melee damage isn't hot, rdm melee damage is below paladin damage and paladins are pretty much the worst damage dealers. See point 1 again if you fail to understand this. I'm using an enhancing sword and even with that I don't consider the damage output worth it.

8. Generally brds I've met will be upset at rdms who melee since it makes their job much harder. Sure you can say it's a lazy brd, but the brd could say it's a bad rdm who wants to swing his sword instead of doing his job as a rdm.

9. How many times has your melee damage contributed to making chain or breaking chain5. I doubt it ever has considering the hit rate and damage output of a redmage. If you think it has, compare it to all the mana you could have saved and nuked the mob dead on chain 5.

10. If they rely on a redmage using a weapon skill for a skill chain, then obviously the group doesn't renkei enough.

11. As for the person who said our AF has melee oriented stats and we should melee, two things. One none of it is geared toward offensive melee damage so that in no way means we should melee. It's all defense, no +att no +sword, no nothing with regards to damage output (I think it was designed for when we solo who knows). Also, take a look at AF2 stats...SE obviously realized the role of redmages and adjusted AF2 according (it's all mage bonuses).

12. You can't wear effective melee and mage gear at the same time and generally you want the want for +int for MB and nuking and +mnd and int for debuffing. If youre' fighting anything remotely tough, you want any edge in debuffing you can get. Plus the +int helps the MB damage. Sure you can swap out but then you lose any of your nonexistent TP again.

Redmages are fundamental in controlling the flow and rate of xp. By careful using and conserving mana usage, we can add damage or healing as needed. Trying to melee gives a lower damage output versus the amount of damage that could be used nuking. It also cuts down on the amount of mana you have for extra healing, buffing, etc.

Speaking as a 74 rdm, and having talked to a lot of people I've yet to hear one group say they like having a rdm who melees past 50. They may not tell you because they need a rdm, but most party members don't like it and think it's a poor rdm. Just because you don't have trouble getting invites doesn't mean you're any good or what you're doing is that beneficial. Rdms like brds are fundamental to decent xp so even a bad one is usually better than none at all.

Sure you can think you're helping with the melee damage but in reality you're probably being less efficient than you could be.
#229 May 19 2004 at 3:56 PM Rating: Decent
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posted the rdm 102 section on killing ifrit. i also split it up into its own post:here
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#230 May 19 2004 at 4:02 PM Rating: Decent
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That post makes me laugh. All of my parties love it when I melee. First, it SAVES MP. If you're refreshing, debuffing, dispelling, and enhancing as you should (not to mention healing as needed) then you will never have a chance to rest. If you do then you are simply not doing your job. Further, as a 65 RDM, there is not a single spell in our arsenal that can hit over 400 HP damage regardless of equipment, ES, or anything: Stone III is as good as it gets. Consider that Stone III costs a bit under 100 MP and that I hit for an average of 30+8 damage (nothing on but accuracy gear). Average hit for Stone III at this level with full mage gear as a Taru will hit for around 335 damage. Now it is time to do the math: if you're standing to cast you can either do melee damage or not ... there is nothing there that penalizes you outside of non-conic AOE attacks, so why not attack? Now, you could stand back and neglect some of your duties and nuke like hell and then rest the MP back up or you can get that same damage dealt for free from your sword. It doesn't take a mental giant to figure that out.

As for melee performance, I just point to the 70-75 RDMs that are soloing HNMs and avatars. While in party play it may wane again, at 65 and under it makes no sense not to melee.
As for AOEs, what's the biggie? There aren't many mobs that can do AOEs dangerous to us (that we should be fighting, at any rate) ... those that do minor damage AOEs are usually fixed through Curaga spells anyway not hurting the party at all. As far as our hitpoints go, I never have a problem with them ... but that is because I play smart.

As for bards, they just have to do their thing and leave us to ours. I never fight locked onto the mob, so if I see the BRD moving to the mages I head over as well. If he starts playing melee songs I back off. It isn't hard if you're not lazy. Good bards come to grips with this very easily when they realize the red mage is following their lead.

Now, I don't know what kind of crap equipment you're using, but I've never been outdamaged by a paladin. This isn't a big deal, since they do crap damage anyway, but I usually beat them by around a 50% margin. Telling me to back away is more insane then telling the PLD to put their weapon away.

As for controlling the rate of XP and MP you are 100% right, but have you considered how inefficient it is to count on elemental magic for damage as a red mage? You can drop 500 damage elemental spells, sure, but only at the cost of 130+ MP that should have been spent in other ways.

Edited, Wed May 19 17:09:45 2004 by airspirit
#231 May 19 2004 at 5:03 PM Rating: Decent
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I really disagree with most of this guide.

You say to waste money on melee based gear, and pass up on some of the most important things that will help you with being a mage.


Red MAGE, that is not a warrior. This guide tries to turn a a mage into a gimped melee.


You waste inordinate amounts of money on gear that will rarely ever imapct you in party play, and say to pass up on things such as a dark staff and vermillion cloak. Sure, you don't need them to be an RDM, but you do if you want to be excellent, you do. You need every bit of extra MP that you can get. Now, I'm not high enough level to give first hand experience, but I do know from the trend that is easily seen while getting to 50, melee skills decline, and everything becomes mage focused.

This guide is just a set of equipment of what you should use. It goes nowhere into actually being an RDM. It makes a start, but at heart, everything in it refers to equipment. Good try, but I wouldn't want to party with anyone who bases everything on thsi guide.
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#232 May 19 2004 at 5:27 PM Rating: Default
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Quote:
but I wouldn't want to party with anyone who bases everything on thsi guide.


i wouldn't group with anyone who bases everything they do on any guide.. guides to jobs/classes in mmorpgs are for 1 purpose and 1 purpose only.. to show advantages and disadvantages to certain styles. it's up to the player to decide hwo he uses that info.

there is no guaranteed way to play any job; red mage included. No guide can be 100% geared to show how to play a job perfect. the original post, and the discussions we've had in the 200+ responses to this thread is great information for red mages to read through and base their choice of how they play their red mage.

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FFXI : Valor LS
75 blm / 68brd / 38whm / 30rng / 75 mnk / 37war / 53 thf / 37nin / 12rdm rank 7
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85 rogue 85 hunter 85 shaman 85 priest 85 mage
#233 May 19 2004 at 5:39 PM Rating: Decent
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Now, I'm not high enough level to give first hand experience, but I do know from the trend that is easily seen while getting to 50, melee skills decline, and everything becomes mage focused.


Of course, that is in part due to the derth of good swords and daggers available to RDMs in the 40s. The last combat sword in that range is the Divine Sword +1 at level 38, and the last accuracy sword is the Republic Sword at 34. Through the 40s, you need to wait till 47 for the next combat sword, and not until 55 for the next accuracy sword. Is it any wonder you feel like you are getting weaker over those periods.
#234 May 19 2004 at 5:54 PM Rating: Decent
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I do this with lower level players as well, particularly ones in my linkshell. I follow them out and we tweak things to the point of perfection and speed ... it is what I do.[quote][/quote]

All i have to say is you have way yo much time on your hands. If you actually go out and critique your shell to perfection your making this game boring. It is supposed to be about to bobbles that you sometimes make. A person can only play in their own fashion. You should be happy everyone wants you and that everyone knows your name but i am sure their is a mage on another server just as good or better. You are in one little vana'dielian sector. I agree that the post is good but you are way to opinionated and just flat out rude to other races. I am however a hume red mage but my best friend who is an elvaan red mage can mage better then mages 5 lvls higher then him. It is all about how it works best for you not someone else.

35RDM - 25WHM - 10 BLM
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#235 May 19 2004 at 7:12 PM Rating: Decent
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Quote:
All i have to say is you have way yo much time on your hands. If you actually go out and critique your shell to perfection your making this game boring.


I have to dissagree with that post, the thing is if he has the time on his hands (ie not lvling or just farming or maybe just checking out the sites), then I ask you why not? Dont take me the wrong way, Im sure that he is biased toward Melee, but for caster RDMs or any style of RDM, there is a fine art to manipulating the Class.
Reguardless if the time is there and someone needs/wants the help, then why the hell not. Your probally thinking that he does it ALL the time. I dont belive that to be so, and another thing is that if a person has "perfected"( it is impossible to have a "perfect" style of playing,but tweaking your own is a major possibility) then it only enhances the playing for the party, because if the RDM, or any character for that matter, can play as one would denote as "really good" or "uber" or however you'd like to put it, then that enhances the party's performance and overall fun of the game, no matter what the goal of the party is.
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#236 May 20 2004 at 4:17 AM Rating: Decent
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I'd just to add my opinion...

RDM should not melee expect when farming.

AoE's aren't the only reason.

BTW No matter how much you hit a monster for you're still given it the same amount of TP.

But like I was saying, I don't want some RDM doing his leet 12+10 damage every 10 swings so the bat can build up TP to do Jet Stream to my paladin, so all the mages can Spam cure on him..

Waste of MP
Waste of MP = Downtime

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BLM Wardrobe...
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Enfeeble Outfit: Complete
MAB Outfit: Incomplete
HQ Staves: Complete
Resting Gear: Incomplete
Dark Magic Outfit: Incomplete


#237 May 20 2004 at 8:17 AM Rating: Good
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The TP argument has been covered. The mob gains 2.5 TP per hit the RDM makes. Since you're casting for a goodly portion of the battle, how many times do you connect? Unless your RDM is hitting the thing over 40 times during a fight TP isn't an issue, and even if it was you could equip a beestinger which adds NO TP to the mob.

I wonder sometimes why people post if they won't read the entire thread. I'm going to put this in big bold caps in the main post too, hopefully people will see it there: dead horse, thoroughly beaten.
#238 May 20 2004 at 9:55 AM Rating: Decent
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When I train 6 tw mobs on myself, I dont look forward to their beating on me as a source of tp. I would think the mobs primary tp is from its attacks on players.
Meaning that the special attacks you recieve are your own damn fault for not letting a ninja tank.

Since I hit as hard (often harder) than most plds, I'll put away my sword when you put away yours.
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#239 May 20 2004 at 3:41 PM Rating: Decent
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Quote:
I'd just to add my opinion...

RDM should not melee expect when farming.

AoE's aren't the only reason.

BTW No matter how much you hit a monster for you're still given it the same amount of TP.

But like I was saying, I don't want some RDM doing his leet 12+10 damage every 10 swings so the bat can build up TP to do Jet Stream to my paladin, so all the mages can Spam cure on him..

Waste of MP
Waste of MP = Downtime


as long as the red mage isn't idiotic and subs a melee job who cares if he's meleeing or not. And as long as he's still keeping up on doing all his various skills then who cares. red mage melee is so insignificant it doesnt even matter, so why not do it if you can. You people that argue that rdm's shouldn't melee are pretty stupid imo. And this is coming from a rdm who doesnt melee. I choose not to melee, but if another red mage chooses to melee and can still do his job my hat is off to him. I can't do that, and i'll admit it. Call me whatever you want but i choose to focus 100% on casting, but that doesnt mean that meleeing is totally out of the option for other people.

if you argue about tp gain then maybe you should tell your paladin not to melee and just provoke & flash to keep agro. He's giving the mob extra TP by swinging and doing very little damage.(if you can't tell i was being sarcastic)

did you guys even read the whole guide and the discussions afterwards?


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FFXI : Valor LS
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85 rogue 85 hunter 85 shaman 85 priest 85 mage
#240 May 20 2004 at 3:48 PM Rating: Excellent
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What is ironic about the whole TP debate is when you are up against HNMs that take an obscenely long time to kill such as King Behemoth. On these you will typically find that only the hardest hitting melee ever engage (assuming any were invited in the first place) the enemy: the paladin will only use skills to keep hate rather than use melee too since this is a case where those 2.5/hit gains will really stack up and the WS of those mobs are devastatingly lethal in ways that mobs you fight in XP parties are not. Bickering over 20-50 TP that the mob gains during a fight is absurd ... if your red mage is providing enough TP for the mob to pull off an additional weaponskill then you shouldn't be XPing off of that mob since that means your fights are hitting over 3-3.5 minutes each at the very least.
#241 May 20 2004 at 9:03 PM Rating: Decent
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If you are going to melee past 30 KEEP YOUR ARMOR UP TO DATE! Yesterday I had the unfortunate experience of getting a trick attack stuck on when the mob was loose. I spent the rest of the fight spamming cure II on my self (garleige citadel seige bat). If you are playing with a thief it is important to remember that that TAs land on the wrong person sometimes... Meleeing has a major advantage in that when the mob goes after you the pt does not lose hits chasing the mob down.
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#242 May 20 2004 at 9:06 PM Rating: Decent
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you shouldn't have been behind, typically non trick people in PT stay on eihter side of the mob.. that way that won't happen :p
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#243 May 20 2004 at 10:04 PM Rating: Excellent
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Oddly enough his concern is valid. I've had hate dumped on me when I'm on the side of the mob before ... it is a good argument for using strong armor. I don't know what causes this ... game glitch? At any rate, it isn't fun when it happens but is easily handled if you kept your MP up for emergencies. The safest way to fix this is to have your tank heal you (assuming you are using a PLD) and hate will bounce right back to him most of the time.

If you have a NIN tank then things may get a bit uglier. Healing yourself to hold hate is a good way to allow the rest of the group to kill the mob. If at all possible drop a blink on yourself, though you will find this incredibly difficult until you get your AF3 hat.
#244 May 21 2004 at 3:25 AM Rating: Decent
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I don't care if a RDM melees. I mean, i guess thats what their En-spells for, so they can melee. But if that RDM whines about a WHM meleeing, they should be /slapped a billion times. Hexa-Strike > any WS a RDM can get.

Edited, Fri May 21 04:26:28 2004 by Kunotron
#245 May 21 2004 at 10:08 AM Rating: Decent
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Ive got no problem with whm meele. but if their meele forces me into a casting role, things change.
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#246 May 21 2004 at 10:55 AM Rating: Good
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Quote:
What is ironic about the whole TP debate is when you are up against HNMs that take an obscenely long time to kill such as King Behemoth. On these you will typically find that only the hardest hitting melee ever engage (assuming any were invited in the first place) the enemy: the paladin will only use skills to keep hate rather than use melee too since this is a case where those 2.5/hit gains will really stack up and the WS of those mobs are devastatingly lethal in ways that mobs you fight in XP parties are not. Bickering over 20-50 TP that the mob gains during a fight is absurd ... if your red mage is providing enough TP for the mob to pull off an additional weaponskill then you shouldn't be XPing off of that mob since that means your fights are hitting over 3-3.5 minutes each at the very least.


Actually, from my understanding, heaving hitting weapons are rarely used against alot of the harder HNMs, due to their ridiculous damage mitigation. Most often, everyone has swords, builds TP on random trash around you, then unleash's a 300% Spirit's Within, and back again, with the only person/people chain meleeing the HNM being the Tank/tanks specifically to avoid that.
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#247 May 21 2004 at 11:50 AM Rating: Excellent
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Precisely ... I was referring primarily to rangers anyway. Most other melees never get invited except as hate batteries.
#248 May 21 2004 at 1:23 PM Rating: Good
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I like to refer to them as "Fodder" actually...
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#249 May 21 2004 at 7:40 PM Rating: Decent
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I am a level 39 rdm, and I recently started melee'ng to level my dagger and sword skills. My dagger is level 73, and my sword is 96. I still have a lot to go to cap them off, so I will have to continue to melee as much as possible. Boy is it hard to level them up. Hitting for 0 using a Divine Sword +1 sucks so bad.

My question is, if there is a bard in my party, How can I melee without missing out of the songs, or piss off the bard because Im not back with the whm? Currently if there is a bard in my party, I dont melee, and stay in back with the other mages.
#250 May 21 2004 at 7:50 PM Rating: Decent
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Quote:
My question is, if there is a bard in my party, How can I melee without missing out of the songs, or piss off the bard because Im not back with the whm? Currently if there is a bard in my party, I dont melee, and stay in back with the other mages.


pay attention to when he is moving back to do ballad and unlock yourself from the mob(* on numpad) and move back to get ballad.
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#251 May 21 2004 at 10:01 PM Rating: Decent
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I'm on vacation from levelling for a while now, so it'll be a bit before I can update this through 70. There is a Dark Staff, Enfeebling Torque, and Elemental Torque with my name on them. If I'm really crazy I may just have to get a Serket Ring and Scorpion Harness too ....
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