Red Mage 101Follow

Don't toss your Elvaan Red Mage out just yet man, push up to 41 when you get Refresh and Convert, then grab two electrum rings, BAM, problem solved. ^^

I have gotten tons of compliments about how I play RDM, and since I hit 41, I don't think I've had to rest once. Convert and Refresh are just that good. You should be able to get from 31 to 41 in a weekend if you get in with a good party. Just try it and see.

-Tim

.... god people are clueless.

woohoo for dancing heroes.. wonder if anything like that happens in CoH ;p

you asked for it >.<

why do you assume that caster rdm's do that? i rarely waste mp nuking unless it's on a MB, i don't see a rdm as any type of damage dealer in a party. i see myself as a support caster, there to keep exp flowing. I play my role as a full caster stayin back and debuffing mob + buffing party & healing when necessary. I also MB now and then but it's not high priority and i dont really care if i miss it. Since i am taru i can chain vt/low IT's for a longer period of time than you and be more efficient w/ my MP by playing full caster.

you assume that because taru rdm's have more mp they are cocky and gonna try to take on high IT's? think about it, we will want to use our MP efficiently and that will mean chaining vt's/low IT's for fast kills, just like you do as a melee rdm. In the same type of chaining vt/low IT groups as you talk about a taru rdm is more efficient than a hume or mithra can possibly hope to be.

you have me on the swap tanking thing, i would never try doing that. But imho that isn't a rdm's purpose in a group, your purpose is to debuff the mob down to your groups level and buff your group with refresh and haste.



no because i would have phalanx + stoneskin + blink cast on me after casting sleep 2. I always put those on me so if it guns for me i try to sleep again if i dont get it off one of the tanks get it off me.. Only time i've ever been killed is on a surprise add after a convert from an undead nearby in gustav.. and that bomb that i talked about earlier. You're an idiot if you dont stoneskin/phalanx/blink after a sleep, especially a taru.

Finally, dissention. As I said previously, this should not be stickied because of the fact that it guides people into a certain direction based on the original poster's opinion on how the class should be played. Rather than have a post that is telling you the poster's opinion on the most efficient type of RDM player, a stickied post should give you all of the options available to you, or at least the most popular. I have seen posts in this thread with players saying they want to start over and are doubting themselves over this post. That is not what a stickied guide should do.

Smurv, you yourself requested to have this post stickied yet you are arguing with the statements made by the poster, which contain the same information as the original post. You yourself disagree in that this is not the most efficient way to play, and yet it is presented that it is. The fact that it has been stickied by the powers that be, add to the effect that readers believe this is the 'gospel'.

Once again I must reiterate that this is a very opinion driven, non-neutral post, and I urge readers to take it with a grain of salt. This is most definitely not a tablet written by the final fantasy gods "Thou shalt play this way". By all means take pieces of this post and adapt it to your playstyle, however, Red Mage need not be played exactly as stated, nor is it definitely the most 'efficient' way.

Edited, Mon May 10 19:08:47 2004 by CrimsonMagician

Well, as I've said from the beginning. It's a good post. It's just misleading. You know, Hitler was a good speaker, but he misled alot of people. Not comparing FFXI tactics to genocide, but you get the point.

Well, no, that's not what I meant. But now that you mention it....

i've also seen melee rdms who just refresh and cast enspells on themselves while whacking the mob. leaving debuffs to whm & blm. and throwing dispels / nukes out whenever.. to quote what a guy said on survivor the other night(nothing was on tv so i actually watched the finale of it.. first time i watched survivor since the first season) anyways the quote is: "if you live in a glass house, don't throw rocks". You're saying caster rdms only cast nukes and waste their mp.. what about pure melee rdms who only melee and dont cast spells? :p

Total kudos to airspirit who has been sticking this thread out like a champ defending his thoughts and the whole time w/o an extremely crude/ offensive comment coming from him. It takes a lot to get ripped by a lot of folks and still stand up for yourself after it all. Just so ya know after reading your post ive changed/ added to half my gear (carrying around extra wand) Added about 8 new macros and revamped my old ones. And im 2 levels away from doing SMN quest (i have WHM sub right now, it helps get parties at low levels. Thanks again. And in my opinion, for all caster-only players, if you didnt want to melee why didnt you take BLM or WHM? althought the pimp hat IS tempting.

I started as a hume rdmg. Made it to lv 25. I enjoyed backup healing but my main focus was to be efficient thus planed on subing blk. Yet i became somewhat envious of the mana pool of the taru. My logic was that end game the taru pays for the extra mp w/ less hp and -8strenght = -4 attk. Didn't think that was worth ALOT since i figured the enspells would help. Plus +attk is not that hard to find, therefor closing the small gap maybe? i will definately conceed to the experience of the more seasoned players however there are many contradicting viewpoints on the matter. Making it very hard for me to decide.

I made a taru and got him to blmg lv 14 (going to be rd/blk). Now i am in no way inclined to not being in battle. I MUST BE IN battle (personal preferance plus seems most efficient to me). Considering what i said about the lack of strenght but equall dex compared to hume i was worried about survivability. The taru at 70 will have 4 less vit than hume. Also does not seem terribly important seeing as how we should not be getting hit anyways.

So it comes down to hp vs. mp. Sacrifice hp for higher mp pool i considered it an acceptable trade with the following preconcieved notions in mind. MP is more efficient than hp. MORE MP = more CURES.... correct? so aside from getting one shoted your still ahead? At 70 we are talking about a diff of hp vs mp of 210 pt give or take a couple (rounded off... this based off of chart on warcry) bla bla bla more efficent converts and all that ... you have all heard the argument GOD KNOWS i have read them. Also the diff in vit compared to hume is 4 pts. Is that alot? not sure how vit works 1vit = 1dmg? Taru will be = to mithra at 70 in vit although i realize mithra will have a higher evade.

FINAL QUESTION does a taru not also have phalanx, stoneskin, and blink.... help him in both pty and solo? Is the lowered hp really that much of a detriment to fighting toe to toe w/ other rdmg? If i cannot FIGHT i will make a mithra instead of hume. i consider the bonus to hit the determining factor for ME if taru is eliminated as an option. I WANT TO BE A REDMAGE THAT FIGHTS! GOD, PLEASE HELP ME!!!!!!!!

p.s for the record aispirit i think you made an excelent post and to ME it seems to be in sink w/ MY play style i'm just suffering from a case of trying to construct the "ideal" redmage.

THANK YOU VERY MUCH.

0 Replies

So basically you are saying AOE attacks are not an issue because a good DRK/BLM should be able to stun any attacks? Well I wanna know what server you are on where you can rely on your stun casters to catch every attack a mob makes. Because I know on my server just as there are many retarded RDMs, there are also many retarded drks and blms who wouldnt be able to stun if thier lives depended on it. So you are arguing that by being a good RDM is to trust all your pt members to be 100% competent? LOL

Also I would like you to address the issue of why you think it is that JP RDM's lvl 60+ do not melee despite having had the game over a year longer than us NAs and why is it that most high level parties over 60 will more often than not specifically request that you not melee? Hmmmm


As far as the equipment goes, cotehardie over AF tabard?
You've got to be kidding me.

So you're telling me minor stat and MP bonuses are better than a +15 enfeeeble magic skill?

Improves your melee ability? 3 str 2 dex is an improvemnt over -10% interruption and +15 enfeeble skill?

Not to mention the tabard has more def.

So what exactly is the point of having a cotehardie?
Oh yea, if you're a THF with WHM subbed for soloing, cuz thats the only class that wear the damn things.

So you are saying when you are meleeing, it is worth 100k+ to you to give up more def, less interruption, and enfeeble skill for ummm... 3str 2dex?

-----------------------

Basically like I said before there is good info in this post, it would be fair for him to say "Some RDMs choose to play this style: pro-melee. Some RDMs choose to play this style: caster."
But instead airspirit insists that a non-meleeing RDM is wrong and not doing his job properly.

That sir, is quite offensive towards me. I may not agree with your style of play (melee) but I don't go out and write biased guides telling people that what you do is wrong. I don't try to make fact-based claims that meleeing is an incorrect way of playing RDM because even though its not my own personal playstyle, I don't expect everyone else to play my way.


Edited, Tue May 11 06:26:31 2004 by sickeness

You are 100% correct, Smurv. I don't advocate (by my definition) caster RDMs, but at the same time don't advocate melee RDMs either (ones who do nothing but stab). We should be debuffing and supporting our parties, and if melee gets in the way of that then you are screwing up.

As for the stunning of mob WS, that is usually what I save my TP for. A competent BLM or DRK can knock out over 90% of mob WS through stun ... just like a RDM can knock out WS with flat blade (something that is paying off while soloing Wespes to get my Hornetneedle ... final sting can do over 900 damage in one hit but a good stun takes care of that problem in a flash). It doesn't always work, but then again there aren't too many mobs that have truly dangerous WS either (bombs, dolls, and goblins are the ones I usually am concerned about). It's not hard to take care of these with stuns.

As for the blue cotehardie it gives you STR+4, DEX+3, AGI+4, and INT+3 at the cost of MND-4 and VIT-3 ... and also converts 40 HP to MP. Depending on the group and the mob it makes perfect sense to use it. Some mobs are more resistant to enfeebles causing you to want to use your tabard (and some of these can be overcome by an enfeebling torque) but others will not be letting you get the most out of your melee and elemental performance with the cotehardie. It's all about picking the right gear for the right mob.

Example: cockatrice are moderately evasive in the 60s. If I swap to my Fleuret/Balance Buckler/Rep. Army Mantle I can connect almost every swing while still retaining good performance with spellcasting. In that case the life belt is overboard, so I retain the +2 INT/MND/STR from that and it gives me max efficiency. On the other hand steelshells are extremely easy to land spells on so I'll drop my life belt on for those since they are extremely evasive as well. Processionaire require high mind to cripple them with paralyze, so I do a full gear swap at the beginning of each fight and forsake TP completely. It all depends on the mob and how it reacts to your spells and melee abilities.

The reason most 60+ red mages just stand back and cast is because most are cowardly or haven't levelled their melee at all. They feel there is no point in melee combat because they can't land attacks ... which is due to the fact that they don't melee making it a viscious cycle. Further, many of them are too incompetent to swing and cast at the same time. I can easily forgive tarus for this, but when I see an elvaan red mage that does nothing but cast it makes me wince. You will see some of the best white mages also in melee combat during parts of the battle when they are healing and doing status fixes: they too know that free damage is always good ... though they aren't nearly as effective as a good red mage. It's all about using your abilities to the fullest, and not many are cut out for that.

BTW, please don't give me the JP argument since it is self-defeating. Some of the worst players I've ever encountered were rank 10 JP players with multiple lvl 75 jobs ... time in game does not equate to skill, and neither does the level of some other job. My favorite was the 68THF the other day that couldn't pull off fuidama to save his life. JP players have the same learning curve that NA players do. I had the pleasant experience of having it out with a Rank 9 JP player the other day (one with both PLD and DRK at 75, I may add) that didn't understand how linking in trains works (they link on the first mob and won't magically leave for somebody else if someone pulls a like type in the area) ... a level 75 PLD that doesn't understand aggro ... by your "JP are gods" fallacy that couldn't ever happen but it does.

I run into JP BLMs that melee and never nuke, JP WHMs that do nothing but cast banish, and JP melee that can't renkei even with jobs in the high 60s. Don't use weak and untenable arguments please.

Airspirit, as you said your posts are based at your observations, then I believe that you are basically right about what you say.

However, can you try make a guide for whm and blm? I know that you don't like to play whm, but you are problably playing blm to use as subjob to rdm...

I am interested to see your opinions and observations about the other mage jobs.

I didn't say anything like that. Although I like to melee, I do not look down upon my non-melee brethren at all. I said that there are merits to melee and non-melee Red Mages. People need to play in the manner that best fits their style and what the party needs.

I have said it many times before; the goal of the Red Mage is to make a party run better than if he/she is not there. It does not matter how we do this; just that we do.

Edited, Tue May 11 17:16:59 2004 by Septy

Good god is this guide long and detailed!!!! I didn't have the hour of free time to read the whole thing(me is slow reader) but I read the first several paragraphs. GREAT JOB!!! This is absolutely the best class guide I've ever seen!!!

No if only you would lvl up the rest of the jobs and post guides on all of them. ^^

Well there isn't much I can add that hasn't been said already...but ive found the the Redmage is based on the PARTY that is formed. A redmage can never be perfect because parties are never perfect, redmages adjust to make up for what the party lacks or needs. I play as the Undesireable Elvan Redmage but have no trouble finding parties at all.. As far as the MP, DEX and INT goes for Evlans, they only have 40-50 less MP and 6 INT as Humes with the same sub and armor, this is made up for with higher MIND and HP. Carrying around a few extra pieces of armor with you (as I do) when partying will quickly fix this.

As far as the origional post goes.. all I can say is that it has WAY too much information. Redmages have a hard job but anyone who needs that kind of a guide should play a PLD, to me it just looks like an ego trip.


Note: HP > MP conversion on my Body Armor in my profile dosent show for some reason, I need to send in for a correction.



Edited, Tue May 11 20:33:13 2004 by Pbwarhero

he never said it's the bible truth.. and people need to stop looking at it that way. So what he thinks melee + hume is the best.. he makes countless other points in the thread that make it WORTH being stickied.. yet you people dwell on the fact that he says hume rdm who melees is the best choice.. imho he coulda worded it different. But saying it doesnt deserve to be stickied is wrong imho, just because of all the other great info in it.. not to mention the actual good debate that has been going on for 100+ posts now about it. if people take the time to not only read the initial posts, but all the responses imho you would learn a TON of info about rdm.

you know you love me.

exactly

Put the melee issue to rest, guys. TP isn't the issue or you wouldn't have your paladin melee. AOE isn't the issue if your group is doing their job. Status ailments are the only true worry ... and even these aren't a big deal if your WHM is on his or her game (how much does silena cost again compared to the damage you can do?) ... curse and sleep are the only thing that keep me out of the front lines and only if it's not a weak sleep like mandras (it never lasts more than a couple seconds on me).

Seriously: the only reason people don't melee is because they don't know how, they don't want the added burden, they never levelled it in the first place, or they're afraid of dying. The last isn't a bad thing if it is well founded (frankly Smurv would be an idiot to melee dolls due to his HPs ... instant death, just as an example), but for some it is like WARs that don't provoke because they don't want to get hit.

Seriously, if you want to cast go for it ... but any way around the issue you will do more good for the team by adding your free damage to the pot. If you don't want to then I'm not going to say you're a terrible RDM since melee isn't the biggest part of our job. It never has been and it never will be ... the reason I focus on it however is because it is the most misunderstood part of our job. If you don't melee and find other ways to make up for it then more power to you. From my experience watching scores of red mages play, there is no substituting the free damage you will deal with any other measure since it detracts from heavy chaining or your other responsibilities. If you can't fulfill your primary duties which are to gimp the living crap out of a mob and keep your party standing because you are swinging a weapon (melee RDMs) then you are just as gimped as a RDM that thinks they're some sort of gimped BLM.

Agree, disagree, whatever. There are always going to be people that feel offended when someone gives a good example for them because they feel slighted or put down. I'm not trying to put anyone down here at all: I'm trying to give information on how we all can do the best we possibly can. I spent six hours inside of the Temple of Uggapileh today with a level 59 RDM teaching him how to properly solo things while trying to get him his drop for Hornetneedle. He went from a cowering back line red mage that couldn't stack protection to one that was comfortable letting a thief buddy of mine drop trick on him so he could tank properly. There were some ... mishaps? ... along the way, but in the end he came out with a very good understanding of some of the facets of our job that he was told never existed. He learned what weapons work on what and how and learned how to turn himself into an invincible god on the battlefield. He learned to combat cast and lost his fear of getting beat on ... all it took was realizing he was tanking EM mobs and taking no damage and that fear went away quickly. Adds didn't scare him anymore because he learned how to handle them with no danger while killing another mob simultaneously with his sword or dagger. These are lessons that all red mages need to learn but unfortunately I can't start an academy in Jeuno or expect many of you to listen .... The tenor of many of the replies here demonstrate that many don't care on bit about the topic and just want to cause hate and discontent for the hell of it.

You can disagree and say WHY you disagree, but saying "everybody does it" or "the JPs do it" or "I don't like you because ... " (see apologist's section) is just crap. Sheer utter crap. It's not an argument ... it is a way to try to salvage dignity for yourself. Saying "everyone says so" doesn't make something right. What is sad, though, is there is no reason that anyone should feel slighted: if you feel I'm wrong then prove it. If you can do better than I'm happy for you and would love to hear about it. I LIKE it when people tell me that I'm doing something wrong because it makes me a better player ... it's all about not taking things like they are personal attacks. This isn't high school here this is a board to help us develop ourselves and our peers. Please leave the juvinile crap at home.

Most Elvaan RDM give up once they hit lv 50 ? total BS
I did a /sea all on all the RDM, let me tell you the result
from lv 50-60 11 hume 1 elvaan from lv 60-75 12 elvaan 7 hume
Dont tell me most elvaan RDM give up past lv 50 on YOUR server, because i am on fairy as well, so PLEASE stop making quotes based on your own "imagination"

giving up your AF body, more defense and +15 enfeebling for some melee armors....... this is such a joke
your job main job is debuff not meleee...hello, debuff please
you say some mobs are more likely to resist some debuff...um.. that is because you are HUME not elvaan, with my MND and my full AF i NEVER fail any debuff at "MY" level of IT, i have only fail on IT mobs thats about 2 levels above me, for example when i was fresh lv 60 when enfeebling still not yet cap, only time i have failed debuff "1/3" of time was partying with a group of lv 63 at onzozo fighting those big cats.

so please dont blame on "some mob resist more on some debuff" because your poor MND makes your debuff wont stick, Did i mention my sub is blm? if my sub is whm, i can make it even better

you say in other post that "most RDM you have seen" are play like this play like that.... i am lv 61, i "rarely" have 2 rdms in my party, how do you know how other RDM play? this is so weird, my friendlist is FULL of whm and blm friends and i know a LOT of people on fairy server, but i only know 1 rdm, why? b/c i dont party with other rdm....very simple. do you think a blm is gonna have more blm friends or more othere type of mage friends....

one last thing...you dont refresh blm, thanks to you i am making a hell lot of blm friends, all the blms love me b/c they say some rdms dont refresh them. when you chain the mobs, less time a blm med meaning more damage they can output and kill mobs faster. Mobs will aggro blm? not if you have a good tank.

Elvaan more MND makes paralyze slow dia II and silence stick better and longer
taru more INT makes gravity, sleep II, bio stick better and longer...
Hume...? melee better, please sub whm, put on your AF and all the +MND equipment then come talk about debuff with Elvaan

did i mention if you sub whm and i sub blm, our mp will be about the same? i get little more mp out of my sub and i have conserve MP that can save me some, with 2 electrium rings and full set of AF at lv 61 i have about 527mp..does hume really have a LOT more mp? if you have to use more mp to recast your debuff when they dont stick......think about it

Edited, Wed May 12 13:20:05 2004 by walaboom

TP is an issue with some people. The PLD has to melee for that extra bit of hate, and they do more melee damage than a RDM anyway. The idea is, people sometimes get uppity about having an extra person giving the monster tp in exchange for low damage hits. Most of the time, the pt doesn't care if the RDM melees appropriate mobs (although they DO care if the WHM or BLM runs in and starts clubbing away).



If the AOE is powerful enough, it would keep me from meleeing. I don't need to have to heal myself on top of healing everyone else. It depends on how much damage it does.

Also, the dog paralyze howl in Eldieme is extremely annoying. It kicks in so often that it can seriously hamper your ability to cast spells.

And you're assuming your WHM is on the ball, ready to silena you at the drop of a hat. I never take such risks in pickup parties.



If you're talking about RDMs who never ever melee, then you're probably right.

But it's one thing to melee all the time, and another to melee when it is appropriate. You're separating the RDM community into 'melee' and 'pansy backliners', when this is not the case.

Also consider the case when I prefer ballad 1 & 2 over the minimal benefits of meleeing. 6mp a tick is pretty sick mp regen.



A RDM is still a mage with a sword, not a fighter with magic.

My problem with your stance on melee is not that it's totally verboten, it's just that melee on certain mobs is just not worth the extra bit of damage.



Free damage, yes, but you HAVE to weigh the benefits of your melee damage vs the consequences of standing in the AOE of the mob. Bubble shower? That's no problem. Jamming wave? No way. High Freq. field? No problem. Howling? Yeah, right.

If you trust your WHM or BRD/WHM, then okay, he can get rid of your silence within moments of you receiving it. But if you are not so sure that he's watching your status ailments with hawk eyes, then the choice is obvious, which is to melee and struggle with status ailments or have to heal yourself on top of healing everyone else, or not melee and avoid all of that.

Wala, not only is your grammar atrocious, but you are mixing up at least two people's opinions in your post and debating them as if it everything was said from one person.

On my server the amount of 50-75 hume RDM is ovewhelming compared to any other race, and at any given time most 70-75 are hume or taru. There are more elvaan than mithra and obviously galka; no one ever said that -everyone- gave up elvaan, but it is true that either alot of them do, or alot of them never start based on statistical data from some people's servers, not unproven opinion. It has been repeated more than once that you are not being attacked for being an elvaan RDM and it's pointless to argue just because you're offended.

It's obviously silly to fully replace AF with cotehardie, but to switch between when you need the +enfeeble or when the extra mp would be more beneficial is quite short of being a "joke". One of the main and best parts of this topic is the discussion of switching equipment. This is somehting that I know alot of peple don't do or haven't even thought about.

And there are certains types of monsters that resist certain types of debuffs, no matter what your mnd and int are. I'm sorry but I don't belive that you only failed once against an IT mob in landing your debuffs; on beetles of nearly any kind past 45 a rdm/blm, whm/blm or blm/whm of any race using eleseal/paralyze won't stick three-fourths to half the time.

As for blm, no matter what tank you have a blm can build too much hate if they chain nuke and don't rest enough. That doesn't mean I don't refresh my blm often, but if you're going to argue a point do it with valid oppostion.

I don't know the MP of hume at my level, but I do know that I have had more MP than my hume friend for at least 8 levels, him being 6 higher then me; and at only 53 as a mithra, were I subbing blm, I would have as much mp as you do if not more. In fact I get less than 20 bonus MP for my sub DRK and I have 499.

As a RDM main without a WHM sub and/or expensive +MND equips your MND as an elvaan isn't going to be so overwhlemingy amazing as to make your debuffs stick every single time so your lack of MP is important to consider if you want to load up on +MND INT equips indtead of +MP equips.


I don't think anyone is arguing about the validity of melee in a dangerous AoE environment, and it just so happens that most parties I'm in must be stupid compared to you because we think it's great for the whm and blm to get an opporunity to level their club skill. We aren't overly worried about the mobs' TP because it is rarely a serious issue. You are also forgetting, or perhaps discounting, mages who always melee mobs without AoE because they use Lilith's rod, or something similar with add effect MP drain.

Edited, Wed May 12 14:05:31 2004 by Halion

Best. Line. Ever

made me cry to... cry from laughing

Weren't you the guy who got jailed and TOSed by a Japanese GM for letting your son play for you?