Don't toss your Elvaan Red Mage out just yet man, push up to 41 when you get Refresh and Convert, then grab two electrum rings, BAM, problem solved. ^^
I have gotten tons of compliments about how I play RDM, and since I hit 41, I don't think I've had to rest once. Convert and Refresh are just that good. You should be able to get from 31 to 41 in a weekend if you get in with a good party. Just try it and see.
-Tim
Red Mage 101Follow
Scholar
41 posts
kevinsal: Soloing xp and soloing farming are not the same thing.
@ 52 it takes about one hour to make 300 xp off of easy prey (yes I did this while lfp the other day >.>)
Now I don't nomally post on these forums so no flaming the newbie please. I do read them almost everyday and those of you answering questions on this post seem intelligent enough to take me seriously instead of giving me crap. The gaping hole I noticed in this fairly well thought out suggestion on RDM as a class is RDM/DRK. Yes I am 53 and I still play this if my party says it's ok over /SMN. The reason I chose RDM to begin with is that I have no interest whatsoever in being a pure mage, that's not what I pay money for; my WHM and BLM are both lvl 1. With Valkyrie's Mask and the added str I do comparable melee damage to, PLD minus en dmg which may or may not be any great feat, but most RDM can't say the same. Not as much of an mp bonus, but it is an increase in int. All of my gear is towards +mp, though airspirit's discussion about +int +mnd gear has me reconsidering that to a point. A hume rdm with the best gear and all of his/her spells can still suck. Beyond statistics it takes a certain amount of skill to play this job well compared to most other jobs. I don't see how you can totally discount DRK as a viable sub for people who take the time to play the job well.
I'm going to update my profile now, except for skill caps because I keep forgetting to write those down, and I glady welcome any suggestions on gear. Over the next 7 levels I plan on buying Wise Wizard's Anelace, an elemental staff if I can (this part of the discussion was also very eye opening to me), a cotehardie to switch out with my AF, MC and then Darksteel Buckler, Phantom or Bat Earrings, questing a Star Neckalce, and hopefully getting to do BCNM 50 and getting a Jungle Stone (1mil on my server ;_;). I admit, my debuffs don't take on Beetles (the only thing I've been fighting lately -_-) very often, but even with a blm/whm eleseal they still don't half the time, so perhaps that's not fully something I can control without being filthy disgusting rich. I also think I will level my dagger more now and use that when I /SMN and do crap damage.
I appreciate the time you put into this topic, I find it disappointing how many RDM out there just plain suck. However, I hope no one is discouraged at lower levels, thinking such things as "Oh no I picked Elvaan RDM I'm going to suck; I should start over!" If you play well you can make up for most of the class weaknesses. Otherwise you wouldn't see the rare- even-now Galka BLM, WHM, SMN, RDM, walking around in full AF or better. Keep in mind that it is a game, and even if there is a "better way" you can make any(nearly) way work if you try hard enough and get good equipment etc. You can make any job cookie-cutter, but RDM is one that doesn't have to be as a job such as PLD does.
Edited, Mon May 10 16:29:20 2004 by Halion
@ 52 it takes about one hour to make 300 xp off of easy prey (yes I did this while lfp the other day >.>)
Now I don't nomally post on these forums so no flaming the newbie please. I do read them almost everyday and those of you answering questions on this post seem intelligent enough to take me seriously instead of giving me crap. The gaping hole I noticed in this fairly well thought out suggestion on RDM as a class is RDM/DRK. Yes I am 53 and I still play this if my party says it's ok over /SMN. The reason I chose RDM to begin with is that I have no interest whatsoever in being a pure mage, that's not what I pay money for; my WHM and BLM are both lvl 1. With Valkyrie's Mask and the added str I do comparable melee damage to, PLD minus en dmg which may or may not be any great feat, but most RDM can't say the same. Not as much of an mp bonus, but it is an increase in int. All of my gear is towards +mp, though airspirit's discussion about +int +mnd gear has me reconsidering that to a point. A hume rdm with the best gear and all of his/her spells can still suck. Beyond statistics it takes a certain amount of skill to play this job well compared to most other jobs. I don't see how you can totally discount DRK as a viable sub for people who take the time to play the job well.
I'm going to update my profile now, except for skill caps because I keep forgetting to write those down, and I glady welcome any suggestions on gear. Over the next 7 levels I plan on buying Wise Wizard's Anelace, an elemental staff if I can (this part of the discussion was also very eye opening to me), a cotehardie to switch out with my AF, MC and then Darksteel Buckler, Phantom or Bat Earrings, questing a Star Neckalce, and hopefully getting to do BCNM 50 and getting a Jungle Stone (1mil on my server ;_;). I admit, my debuffs don't take on Beetles (the only thing I've been fighting lately -_-) very often, but even with a blm/whm eleseal they still don't half the time, so perhaps that's not fully something I can control without being filthy disgusting rich. I also think I will level my dagger more now and use that when I /SMN and do crap damage.
I appreciate the time you put into this topic, I find it disappointing how many RDM out there just plain suck. However, I hope no one is discouraged at lower levels, thinking such things as "Oh no I picked Elvaan RDM I'm going to suck; I should start over!" If you play well you can make up for most of the class weaknesses. Otherwise you wouldn't see the rare- even-now Galka BLM, WHM, SMN, RDM, walking around in full AF or better. Keep in mind that it is a game, and even if there is a "better way" you can make any(nearly) way work if you try hard enough and get good equipment etc. You can make any job cookie-cutter, but RDM is one that doesn't have to be as a job such as PLD does.
Edited, Mon May 10 16:29:20 2004 by Halion
Quote:
Yes, finally someone says that a RDM can Solo. Everywhere I have seen it states after lvl 15+ you must party to gain lvls.
.... god people are clueless.
FFXI : Valor LS
75 blm / 68brd / 38whm / 30rng / 75 mnk / 37war / 53 thf / 37nin / 12rdm rank 7
WOW
85 rogue 85 hunter 85 shaman 85 priest 85 mage
75 blm / 68brd / 38whm / 30rng / 75 mnk / 37war / 53 thf / 37nin / 12rdm rank 7
WOW
85 rogue 85 hunter 85 shaman 85 priest 85 mage
Smurv wrote:
Quote:
Yes, finally someone says that a RDM can Solo. Everywhere I have seen it states after lvl 15+ you must party to gain lvls.
.... god people are clueless.
woohoo for dancing heroes.. wonder if anything like that happens in CoH ;p
FFXI : Valor LS
75 blm / 68brd / 38whm / 30rng / 75 mnk / 37war / 53 thf / 37nin / 12rdm rank 7
WOW
85 rogue 85 hunter 85 shaman 85 priest 85 mage
75 blm / 68brd / 38whm / 30rng / 75 mnk / 37war / 53 thf / 37nin / 12rdm rank 7
WOW
85 rogue 85 hunter 85 shaman 85 priest 85 mage
I disapprove of caster RDMs (other than tarus) at all levels: this is correct. If you are nuking then you are going to end up resting ... this either slows down your chain or you aren't going to be properly supporting your team through dispel/refresh. Further, I disapprove of STRICT caster RDMs because it limits your options in emergency situations in the same way that being a Taru does.
Picture yourself inside of Boyahda fighting Processionaire (big bad nasty crawlers that you take on in the 65 range) and you get an add. Are you going to let your BLM sleep it? If you do then you aren't doing your job since their sleep will wear off insanely fast. So you cast sleep on it and go back about your business ... when it wakes it kills you in four shots ... why is this? You neglected to put on heavy armor and if you are a taru you don't have the HPs or VIT to stand up as long. Unfortunately, Sleep II generates a ton of hate ... even if your PLD throws a flash on the sleeping mob for when it wakes you still have an even shot of it disemboweling you when it wakes ... not a pretty thing.
The fact of the matter is that when a Hume or Mithra is compared to a Taru in this situation (as tested in a dual red mage party just yesterday) the tarus not only have significantly less HP to play with but also take around 20% more damage per hit with identical gear. Further, your spell interruption is tied directly to your damage/hp ratio. The more damage you take proportionate to the amount of HPmax you have the greater chance you will have of interruption. Factor in the lower HP of tarus (about 25% lower) with the higher damage they take and it makes them much less suitable in emergency situations. Their only saving grace here is that their sleep cast has less chance of being resisted. On the flipside of this an elvaan can take the damage much more readily than a hume or mithra, but is much less likely to land the spell in the first place.
On a similar point, red mages are immensely suitable for playing as swap tanks or emergency tanks in parties as needed, however it is expensive in MP and requires that you have gear to support it. While a Hume/Mithra (especially elvaan) can take the damage better in these situations a Taru can not. If your party needs fast and heavy healing you will usually find that it is very easy even with the best of tanks to rip hate off of them. If your paladin is near death for some reason (heavy WS) or the mob decided it had a taste for juicy mage it is your responsibility to take the hate yourself and hold it until the rest of the group can take it back. This is pointless if you are unable to survive the time that it takes for them to fix the emergency.
The reason that I look down on caster RDMs is that they spend inordinate amounts of MP on various offensive measures counting on being able to rest to make it up. That isn't a bad thing if you are fighting high level IT mobs that allow you that pause time between matches (though you will most of the time still suffer an efficiency loss compared to mass VT chaining) ... but as soon as an emergency such as those listed above happens your chain is dead or your party is dead because either way you won't have MPs to continue. If you're lucky, you won't have burnt your convert yet allowing you to save the day. If not you will have problems. It is nice to think that you can be a caster and that's it, but it really takes away options that you could put into play if things come up that other more flexible mages can use to help their parties. Even those that just find themselves using elemental magic should still be up front though, as forsaking free damage on the mob is NEVER a good thing unless it will cause you certain death.
As for solo play, it will take you until the 50s and a helping of phalanx before you can solo efficiently. In the 60s I can usually pull around 1K/hr (nothing compared to a group but better than nothing sometimes). Unfortunately at many early levels your weaponry is so gimped and your lack of MPs so painful that it makes soloing very dangerous.
Picture yourself inside of Boyahda fighting Processionaire (big bad nasty crawlers that you take on in the 65 range) and you get an add. Are you going to let your BLM sleep it? If you do then you aren't doing your job since their sleep will wear off insanely fast. So you cast sleep on it and go back about your business ... when it wakes it kills you in four shots ... why is this? You neglected to put on heavy armor and if you are a taru you don't have the HPs or VIT to stand up as long. Unfortunately, Sleep II generates a ton of hate ... even if your PLD throws a flash on the sleeping mob for when it wakes you still have an even shot of it disemboweling you when it wakes ... not a pretty thing.
The fact of the matter is that when a Hume or Mithra is compared to a Taru in this situation (as tested in a dual red mage party just yesterday) the tarus not only have significantly less HP to play with but also take around 20% more damage per hit with identical gear. Further, your spell interruption is tied directly to your damage/hp ratio. The more damage you take proportionate to the amount of HPmax you have the greater chance you will have of interruption. Factor in the lower HP of tarus (about 25% lower) with the higher damage they take and it makes them much less suitable in emergency situations. Their only saving grace here is that their sleep cast has less chance of being resisted. On the flipside of this an elvaan can take the damage much more readily than a hume or mithra, but is much less likely to land the spell in the first place.
On a similar point, red mages are immensely suitable for playing as swap tanks or emergency tanks in parties as needed, however it is expensive in MP and requires that you have gear to support it. While a Hume/Mithra (especially elvaan) can take the damage better in these situations a Taru can not. If your party needs fast and heavy healing you will usually find that it is very easy even with the best of tanks to rip hate off of them. If your paladin is near death for some reason (heavy WS) or the mob decided it had a taste for juicy mage it is your responsibility to take the hate yourself and hold it until the rest of the group can take it back. This is pointless if you are unable to survive the time that it takes for them to fix the emergency.
The reason that I look down on caster RDMs is that they spend inordinate amounts of MP on various offensive measures counting on being able to rest to make it up. That isn't a bad thing if you are fighting high level IT mobs that allow you that pause time between matches (though you will most of the time still suffer an efficiency loss compared to mass VT chaining) ... but as soon as an emergency such as those listed above happens your chain is dead or your party is dead because either way you won't have MPs to continue. If you're lucky, you won't have burnt your convert yet allowing you to save the day. If not you will have problems. It is nice to think that you can be a caster and that's it, but it really takes away options that you could put into play if things come up that other more flexible mages can use to help their parties. Even those that just find themselves using elemental magic should still be up front though, as forsaking free damage on the mob is NEVER a good thing unless it will cause you certain death.
As for solo play, it will take you until the 50s and a helping of phalanx before you can solo efficiently. In the 60s I can usually pull around 1K/hr (nothing compared to a group but better than nothing sometimes). Unfortunately at many early levels your weaponry is so gimped and your lack of MPs so painful that it makes soloing very dangerous.
Quote:
The reason that I look down on caster RDMs is that they spend inordinate amounts of MP on various offensive measures counting on being able to rest to make it up. That isn't a bad thing if you are fighting high level IT mobs that allow you that pause time between matches (though you will most of the time still suffer an efficiency loss compared to mass VT chaining)
you asked for it >.<
why do you assume that caster rdm's do that? i rarely waste mp nuking unless it's on a MB, i don't see a rdm as any type of damage dealer in a party. i see myself as a support caster, there to keep exp flowing. I play my role as a full caster stayin back and debuffing mob + buffing party & healing when necessary. I also MB now and then but it's not high priority and i dont really care if i miss it. Since i am taru i can chain vt/low IT's for a longer period of time than you and be more efficient w/ my MP by playing full caster.
you assume that because taru rdm's have more mp they are cocky and gonna try to take on high IT's? think about it, we will want to use our MP efficiently and that will mean chaining vt's/low IT's for fast kills, just like you do as a melee rdm. In the same type of chaining vt/low IT groups as you talk about a taru rdm is more efficient than a hume or mithra can possibly hope to be.
you have me on the swap tanking thing, i would never try doing that. But imho that isn't a rdm's purpose in a group, your purpose is to debuff the mob down to your groups level and buff your group with refresh and haste.
Quote:
So you cast sleep on it and go back about your business ... when it wakes it kills you in four shots ... why is this? You neglected to put on heavy armor and if you are a taru you don't have the HPs or VIT to stand up as long.
no because i would have phalanx + stoneskin + blink cast on me after casting sleep 2. I always put those on me so if it guns for me i try to sleep again if i dont get it off one of the tanks get it off me.. Only time i've ever been killed is on a surprise add after a convert from an undead nearby in gustav.. and that bomb that i talked about earlier. You're an idiot if you dont stoneskin/phalanx/blink after a sleep, especially a taru.
FFXI : Valor LS
75 blm / 68brd / 38whm / 30rng / 75 mnk / 37war / 53 thf / 37nin / 12rdm rank 7
WOW
85 rogue 85 hunter 85 shaman 85 priest 85 mage
75 blm / 68brd / 38whm / 30rng / 75 mnk / 37war / 53 thf / 37nin / 12rdm rank 7
WOW
85 rogue 85 hunter 85 shaman 85 priest 85 mage
The reason RDM/DRK was left out is that in many ways it plays similar to a RDM/BLM except with lower MP, higher HP, and fewer utility spells at the benefit of having a small edge in damage. The only real benefit to this combo is for getting aspir ten levels earlier, or for tarus who want to be able to take front line positions easier. For all general purposes, though, there are no real benefits post-50 (when Aspir can be gained via BLM) except for Tarus ... and even then the VIT difference will still keep them from doing any swap-play up front. I don't know of many situations that this would be really beneficial over a different combination ... aspir is really the one reason you'd want to do this unless you're a taru. It works in many of the same ways as RDM/WAR where you lose more than you gain relatively, except that this doesn't gimp you like RDM/WAR does.
Finally, dissention. As I said previously, this should not be stickied because of the fact that it guides people into a certain direction based on the original poster's opinion on how the class should be played. Rather than have a post that is telling you the poster's opinion on the most efficient type of RDM player, a stickied post should give you all of the options available to you, or at least the most popular. I have seen posts in this thread with players saying they want to start over and are doubting themselves over this post. That is not what a stickied guide should do.
Smurv, you yourself requested to have this post stickied yet you are arguing with the statements made by the poster, which contain the same information as the original post. You yourself disagree in that this is not the most efficient way to play, and yet it is presented that it is. The fact that it has been stickied by the powers that be, add to the effect that readers believe this is the 'gospel'.
Once again I must reiterate that this is a very opinion driven, non-neutral post, and I urge readers to take it with a grain of salt. This is most definitely not a tablet written by the final fantasy gods "Thou shalt play this way". By all means take pieces of this post and adapt it to your playstyle, however, Red Mage need not be played exactly as stated, nor is it definitely the most 'efficient' way.
Edited, Mon May 10 19:08:47 2004 by CrimsonMagician
Smurv, you yourself requested to have this post stickied yet you are arguing with the statements made by the poster, which contain the same information as the original post. You yourself disagree in that this is not the most efficient way to play, and yet it is presented that it is. The fact that it has been stickied by the powers that be, add to the effect that readers believe this is the 'gospel'.
Once again I must reiterate that this is a very opinion driven, non-neutral post, and I urge readers to take it with a grain of salt. This is most definitely not a tablet written by the final fantasy gods "Thou shalt play this way". By all means take pieces of this post and adapt it to your playstyle, however, Red Mage need not be played exactly as stated, nor is it definitely the most 'efficient' way.
Edited, Mon May 10 19:08:47 2004 by CrimsonMagician
it's an awesome post, and a good debate but slowly i'm regretting getting it stickied :| ( at least it hasn't gotten to a flame war yet and hopefully the debating stays un-hostile) /sigh
FFXI : Valor LS
75 blm / 68brd / 38whm / 30rng / 75 mnk / 37war / 53 thf / 37nin / 12rdm rank 7
WOW
85 rogue 85 hunter 85 shaman 85 priest 85 mage
75 blm / 68brd / 38whm / 30rng / 75 mnk / 37war / 53 thf / 37nin / 12rdm rank 7
WOW
85 rogue 85 hunter 85 shaman 85 priest 85 mage
Well, as I've said from the beginning. It's a good post. It's just misleading. You know, Hitler was a good speaker, but he misled alot of people. Not comparing FFXI tactics to genocide, but you get the point.
airspirit is a nazi, i get it.
:p
:p
FFXI : Valor LS
75 blm / 68brd / 38whm / 30rng / 75 mnk / 37war / 53 thf / 37nin / 12rdm rank 7
WOW
85 rogue 85 hunter 85 shaman 85 priest 85 mage
75 blm / 68brd / 38whm / 30rng / 75 mnk / 37war / 53 thf / 37nin / 12rdm rank 7
WOW
85 rogue 85 hunter 85 shaman 85 priest 85 mage
Smurv wrote:
airspirit is a nazi, i get it.
:p
:p
Well, no, that's not what I meant. But now that you mention it....
Smurv, I wasn't referring to you. Many red mages I've seen actually believe it is their job to toss a few refreshes then chainnuke until they have to rest. I've seen this a number of times and it makes baby jesus wail.
Most of the threads you find here referring to caster RDMs refer to those that just stand back and chaincast. That is what I mean by "caster RDMs": people that treat the job like a BLM with refresh. Alternately, you can play the class without melee in a similar fasion and sub in a nuke or two instead and come out pretty even if you can time your resting just perfect, which is what I believe you are referring to.
When I talk about tarus being more geared for bigger game, though, I am referring to the longer chain times allowed letting them use more of their voluminous MP reserves each fight while still preserving chaining. It isn't about being cocky, it is using your abilities to their fullest.
Most of the threads you find here referring to caster RDMs refer to those that just stand back and chaincast. That is what I mean by "caster RDMs": people that treat the job like a BLM with refresh. Alternately, you can play the class without melee in a similar fasion and sub in a nuke or two instead and come out pretty even if you can time your resting just perfect, which is what I believe you are referring to.
When I talk about tarus being more geared for bigger game, though, I am referring to the longer chain times allowed letting them use more of their voluminous MP reserves each fight while still preserving chaining. It isn't about being cocky, it is using your abilities to their fullest.
i've also seen melee rdms who just refresh and cast enspells on themselves while whacking the mob. leaving debuffs to whm & blm. and throwing dispels / nukes out whenever.. to quote what a guy said on survivor the other night(nothing was on tv so i actually watched the finale of it.. first time i watched survivor since the first season) anyways the quote is: "if you live in a glass house, don't throw rocks". You're saying caster rdms only cast nukes and waste their mp.. what about pure melee rdms who only melee and dont cast spells? :p
FFXI : Valor LS
75 blm / 68brd / 38whm / 30rng / 75 mnk / 37war / 53 thf / 37nin / 12rdm rank 7
WOW
85 rogue 85 hunter 85 shaman 85 priest 85 mage
75 blm / 68brd / 38whm / 30rng / 75 mnk / 37war / 53 thf / 37nin / 12rdm rank 7
WOW
85 rogue 85 hunter 85 shaman 85 priest 85 mage
It depends on the party, for me. If it's melee heavy and I'm the only mage, I'll stand back and cast. If it's mage heavy, I'll get in and melee. If it's a balanced party with one of each mage, I'll do a balance of both melee and spell. When I come into a party, I'm usually the last one. I know what each job's purpose is in the party, so I can look at what gaps there are and fill them: that's the beauty of the RDM job, that it gives you flexibility and options, whether solo or in a party.
Total kudos to airspirit who has been sticking this thread out like a champ defending his thoughts and the whole time w/o an extremely crude/ offensive comment coming from him. It takes a lot to get ripped by a lot of folks and still stand up for yourself after it all. Just so ya know after reading your post ive changed/ added to half my gear (carrying around extra wand) Added about 8 new macros and revamped my old ones. And im 2 levels away from doing SMN quest (i have WHM sub right now, it helps get parties at low levels. Thanks again. And in my opinion, for all caster-only players, if you didnt want to melee why didnt you take BLM or WHM? althought the pimp hat IS tempting.
Bayne hume lvl 34 RDM/ 17 SMN/ 11 WHM
Quetz. server
"When I'm done with it, the mob has to ride the short bus to school."
Quetz. server
"When I'm done with it, the mob has to ride the short bus to school."
Quote:
for all caster-only players, if you didnt want to melee why didnt you take BLM or WHM?
................. because i wanted to play a red mage? meleeing isn't a needed feature of rdm, it's a bonus, you can choose to do it or you can choose not to. i choose not to.
FFXI : Valor LS
75 blm / 68brd / 38whm / 30rng / 75 mnk / 37war / 53 thf / 37nin / 12rdm rank 7
WOW
85 rogue 85 hunter 85 shaman 85 priest 85 mage
75 blm / 68brd / 38whm / 30rng / 75 mnk / 37war / 53 thf / 37nin / 12rdm rank 7
WOW
85 rogue 85 hunter 85 shaman 85 priest 85 mage
7 posts
I started as a hume rdmg. Made it to lv 25. I enjoyed backup healing but my main focus was to be efficient thus planed on subing blk. Yet i became somewhat envious of the mana pool of the taru. My logic was that end game the taru pays for the extra mp w/ less hp and -8strenght = -4 attk. Didn't think that was worth ALOT since i figured the enspells would help. Plus +attk is not that hard to find, therefor closing the small gap maybe? i will definately conceed to the experience of the more seasoned players however there are many contradicting viewpoints on the matter. Making it very hard for me to decide.
I made a taru and got him to blmg lv 14 (going to be rd/blk). Now i am in no way inclined to not being in battle. I MUST BE IN battle (personal preferance plus seems most efficient to me). Considering what i said about the lack of strenght but equall dex compared to hume i was worried about survivability. The taru at 70 will have 4 less vit than hume. Also does not seem terribly important seeing as how we should not be getting hit anyways.
So it comes down to hp vs. mp. Sacrifice hp for higher mp pool i considered it an acceptable trade with the following preconcieved notions in mind. MP is more efficient than hp. MORE MP = more CURES.... correct? so aside from getting one shoted your still ahead? At 70 we are talking about a diff of hp vs mp of 210 pt give or take a couple (rounded off... this based off of chart on warcry) bla bla bla more efficent converts and all that ... you have all heard the argument GOD KNOWS i have read them. Also the diff in vit compared to hume is 4 pts. Is that alot? not sure how vit works 1vit = 1dmg? Taru will be = to mithra at 70 in vit although i realize mithra will have a higher evade.
FINAL QUESTION does a taru not also have phalanx, stoneskin, and blink.... help him in both pty and solo? Is the lowered hp really that much of a detriment to fighting toe to toe w/ other rdmg? If i cannot FIGHT i will make a mithra instead of hume. i consider the bonus to hit the determining factor for ME if taru is eliminated as an option. I WANT TO BE A REDMAGE THAT FIGHTS! GOD, PLEASE HELP ME!!!!!!!!
p.s for the record aispirit i think you made an excelent post and to ME it seems to be in sink w/ MY play style i'm just suffering from a case of trying to construct the "ideal" redmage.
THANK YOU VERY MUCH.
0 Replies
I made a taru and got him to blmg lv 14 (going to be rd/blk). Now i am in no way inclined to not being in battle. I MUST BE IN battle (personal preferance plus seems most efficient to me). Considering what i said about the lack of strenght but equall dex compared to hume i was worried about survivability. The taru at 70 will have 4 less vit than hume. Also does not seem terribly important seeing as how we should not be getting hit anyways.
So it comes down to hp vs. mp. Sacrifice hp for higher mp pool i considered it an acceptable trade with the following preconcieved notions in mind. MP is more efficient than hp. MORE MP = more CURES.... correct? so aside from getting one shoted your still ahead? At 70 we are talking about a diff of hp vs mp of 210 pt give or take a couple (rounded off... this based off of chart on warcry) bla bla bla more efficent converts and all that ... you have all heard the argument GOD KNOWS i have read them. Also the diff in vit compared to hume is 4 pts. Is that alot? not sure how vit works 1vit = 1dmg? Taru will be = to mithra at 70 in vit although i realize mithra will have a higher evade.
FINAL QUESTION does a taru not also have phalanx, stoneskin, and blink.... help him in both pty and solo? Is the lowered hp really that much of a detriment to fighting toe to toe w/ other rdmg? If i cannot FIGHT i will make a mithra instead of hume. i consider the bonus to hit the determining factor for ME if taru is eliminated as an option. I WANT TO BE A REDMAGE THAT FIGHTS! GOD, PLEASE HELP ME!!!!!!!!
p.s for the record aispirit i think you made an excelent post and to ME it seems to be in sink w/ MY play style i'm just suffering from a case of trying to construct the "ideal" redmage.
THANK YOU VERY MUCH.
0 Replies
As a galka RDM, I get better efficiency by medding and hitting MBs instead of meleeing. I keep my sword skill up for 'oh sh*t' circumstances, but RDM is heavy on Mage, and not so heavy on melee by design. With a B- in sword we're gimped in melee no matter whether you're talking about actual hits or enspell damage since we lack in ATK and ACC both.
39 posts
So basically you are saying AOE attacks are not an issue because a good DRK/BLM should be able to stun any attacks? Well I wanna know what server you are on where you can rely on your stun casters to catch every attack a mob makes. Because I know on my server just as there are many retarded RDMs, there are also many retarded drks and blms who wouldnt be able to stun if thier lives depended on it. So you are arguing that by being a good RDM is to trust all your pt members to be 100% competent? LOL
Also I would like you to address the issue of why you think it is that JP RDM's lvl 60+ do not melee despite having had the game over a year longer than us NAs and why is it that most high level parties over 60 will more often than not specifically request that you not melee? Hmmmm
As far as the equipment goes, cotehardie over AF tabard?
You've got to be kidding me.
So you're telling me minor stat and MP bonuses are better than a +15 enfeeeble magic skill?
Improves your melee ability? 3 str 2 dex is an improvemnt over -10% interruption and +15 enfeeble skill?
Not to mention the tabard has more def.
So what exactly is the point of having a cotehardie?
Oh yea, if you're a THF with WHM subbed for soloing, cuz thats the only class that wear the damn things.
So you are saying when you are meleeing, it is worth 100k+ to you to give up more def, less interruption, and enfeeble skill for ummm... 3str 2dex?
-----------------------
Basically like I said before there is good info in this post, it would be fair for him to say "Some RDMs choose to play this style: pro-melee. Some RDMs choose to play this style: caster."
But instead airspirit insists that a non-meleeing RDM is wrong and not doing his job properly.
That sir, is quite offensive towards me. I may not agree with your style of play (melee) but I don't go out and write biased guides telling people that what you do is wrong. I don't try to make fact-based claims that meleeing is an incorrect way of playing RDM because even though its not my own personal playstyle, I don't expect everyone else to play my way.
Edited, Tue May 11 06:26:31 2004 by sickeness
Also I would like you to address the issue of why you think it is that JP RDM's lvl 60+ do not melee despite having had the game over a year longer than us NAs and why is it that most high level parties over 60 will more often than not specifically request that you not melee? Hmmmm
As far as the equipment goes, cotehardie over AF tabard?
You've got to be kidding me.
So you're telling me minor stat and MP bonuses are better than a +15 enfeeeble magic skill?
Improves your melee ability? 3 str 2 dex is an improvemnt over -10% interruption and +15 enfeeble skill?
Not to mention the tabard has more def.
So what exactly is the point of having a cotehardie?
Oh yea, if you're a THF with WHM subbed for soloing, cuz thats the only class that wear the damn things.
So you are saying when you are meleeing, it is worth 100k+ to you to give up more def, less interruption, and enfeeble skill for ummm... 3str 2dex?
-----------------------
Basically like I said before there is good info in this post, it would be fair for him to say "Some RDMs choose to play this style: pro-melee. Some RDMs choose to play this style: caster."
But instead airspirit insists that a non-meleeing RDM is wrong and not doing his job properly.
That sir, is quite offensive towards me. I may not agree with your style of play (melee) but I don't go out and write biased guides telling people that what you do is wrong. I don't try to make fact-based claims that meleeing is an incorrect way of playing RDM because even though its not my own personal playstyle, I don't expect everyone else to play my way.
Edited, Tue May 11 06:26:31 2004 by sickeness
I wonder if other jobs have the same sort of arguements in their forums. Do dragoons say, well, i have a CHOICE to bring out my wyvern, but i dont cause i dont like to, its not my style. Or beastmasters that dont tame. Or WHM's that refuse to buy cure spells cause they dont want to worry about other peoples health. Or pallys that only sit in the back with the casters and use cure spells cause they dont like combat either. I figure if something is given to you in your job, use it.
Bayne hume lvl 34 RDM/ 17 SMN/ 11 WHM
Quetz. server
"When I'm done with it, the mob has to ride the short bus to school."
Quetz. server
"When I'm done with it, the mob has to ride the short bus to school."
You are 100% correct, Smurv. I don't advocate (by my definition) caster RDMs, but at the same time don't advocate melee RDMs either (ones who do nothing but stab). We should be debuffing and supporting our parties, and if melee gets in the way of that then you are screwing up.
As for the stunning of mob WS, that is usually what I save my TP for. A competent BLM or DRK can knock out over 90% of mob WS through stun ... just like a RDM can knock out WS with flat blade (something that is paying off while soloing Wespes to get my Hornetneedle ... final sting can do over 900 damage in one hit but a good stun takes care of that problem in a flash). It doesn't always work, but then again there aren't too many mobs that have truly dangerous WS either (bombs, dolls, and goblins are the ones I usually am concerned about). It's not hard to take care of these with stuns.
As for the blue cotehardie it gives you STR+4, DEX+3, AGI+4, and INT+3 at the cost of MND-4 and VIT-3 ... and also converts 40 HP to MP. Depending on the group and the mob it makes perfect sense to use it. Some mobs are more resistant to enfeebles causing you to want to use your tabard (and some of these can be overcome by an enfeebling torque) but others will not be letting you get the most out of your melee and elemental performance with the cotehardie. It's all about picking the right gear for the right mob.
Example: cockatrice are moderately evasive in the 60s. If I swap to my Fleuret/Balance Buckler/Rep. Army Mantle I can connect almost every swing while still retaining good performance with spellcasting. In that case the life belt is overboard, so I retain the +2 INT/MND/STR from that and it gives me max efficiency. On the other hand steelshells are extremely easy to land spells on so I'll drop my life belt on for those since they are extremely evasive as well. Processionaire require high mind to cripple them with paralyze, so I do a full gear swap at the beginning of each fight and forsake TP completely. It all depends on the mob and how it reacts to your spells and melee abilities.
The reason most 60+ red mages just stand back and cast is because most are cowardly or haven't levelled their melee at all. They feel there is no point in melee combat because they can't land attacks ... which is due to the fact that they don't melee making it a viscious cycle. Further, many of them are too incompetent to swing and cast at the same time. I can easily forgive tarus for this, but when I see an elvaan red mage that does nothing but cast it makes me wince. You will see some of the best white mages also in melee combat during parts of the battle when they are healing and doing status fixes: they too know that free damage is always good ... though they aren't nearly as effective as a good red mage. It's all about using your abilities to the fullest, and not many are cut out for that.
BTW, please don't give me the JP argument since it is self-defeating. Some of the worst players I've ever encountered were rank 10 JP players with multiple lvl 75 jobs ... time in game does not equate to skill, and neither does the level of some other job. My favorite was the 68THF the other day that couldn't pull off fuidama to save his life. JP players have the same learning curve that NA players do. I had the pleasant experience of having it out with a Rank 9 JP player the other day (one with both PLD and DRK at 75, I may add) that didn't understand how linking in trains works (they link on the first mob and won't magically leave for somebody else if someone pulls a like type in the area) ... a level 75 PLD that doesn't understand aggro ... by your "JP are gods" fallacy that couldn't ever happen but it does.
I run into JP BLMs that melee and never nuke, JP WHMs that do nothing but cast banish, and JP melee that can't renkei even with jobs in the high 60s. Don't use weak and untenable arguments please.
As for the stunning of mob WS, that is usually what I save my TP for. A competent BLM or DRK can knock out over 90% of mob WS through stun ... just like a RDM can knock out WS with flat blade (something that is paying off while soloing Wespes to get my Hornetneedle ... final sting can do over 900 damage in one hit but a good stun takes care of that problem in a flash). It doesn't always work, but then again there aren't too many mobs that have truly dangerous WS either (bombs, dolls, and goblins are the ones I usually am concerned about). It's not hard to take care of these with stuns.
As for the blue cotehardie it gives you STR+4, DEX+3, AGI+4, and INT+3 at the cost of MND-4 and VIT-3 ... and also converts 40 HP to MP. Depending on the group and the mob it makes perfect sense to use it. Some mobs are more resistant to enfeebles causing you to want to use your tabard (and some of these can be overcome by an enfeebling torque) but others will not be letting you get the most out of your melee and elemental performance with the cotehardie. It's all about picking the right gear for the right mob.
Example: cockatrice are moderately evasive in the 60s. If I swap to my Fleuret/Balance Buckler/Rep. Army Mantle I can connect almost every swing while still retaining good performance with spellcasting. In that case the life belt is overboard, so I retain the +2 INT/MND/STR from that and it gives me max efficiency. On the other hand steelshells are extremely easy to land spells on so I'll drop my life belt on for those since they are extremely evasive as well. Processionaire require high mind to cripple them with paralyze, so I do a full gear swap at the beginning of each fight and forsake TP completely. It all depends on the mob and how it reacts to your spells and melee abilities.
The reason most 60+ red mages just stand back and cast is because most are cowardly or haven't levelled their melee at all. They feel there is no point in melee combat because they can't land attacks ... which is due to the fact that they don't melee making it a viscious cycle. Further, many of them are too incompetent to swing and cast at the same time. I can easily forgive tarus for this, but when I see an elvaan red mage that does nothing but cast it makes me wince. You will see some of the best white mages also in melee combat during parts of the battle when they are healing and doing status fixes: they too know that free damage is always good ... though they aren't nearly as effective as a good red mage. It's all about using your abilities to the fullest, and not many are cut out for that.
BTW, please don't give me the JP argument since it is self-defeating. Some of the worst players I've ever encountered were rank 10 JP players with multiple lvl 75 jobs ... time in game does not equate to skill, and neither does the level of some other job. My favorite was the 68THF the other day that couldn't pull off fuidama to save his life. JP players have the same learning curve that NA players do. I had the pleasant experience of having it out with a Rank 9 JP player the other day (one with both PLD and DRK at 75, I may add) that didn't understand how linking in trains works (they link on the first mob and won't magically leave for somebody else if someone pulls a like type in the area) ... a level 75 PLD that doesn't understand aggro ... by your "JP are gods" fallacy that couldn't ever happen but it does.
I run into JP BLMs that melee and never nuke, JP WHMs that do nothing but cast banish, and JP melee that can't renkei even with jobs in the high 60s. Don't use weak and untenable arguments please.
Why does coming to a RDM message board remind me of the three Tarutarus who argue about who is better WHM, BLM or RDM?
When I was approaching level 30, people told me that I would have to stop fighting because my damage would really start to decline. It wasn't all that bad of a decline, and is offset decently well by en- damage.
When I was approaching level 40, people told me that I would have to stop fighting because I would be so busy with refresh, dispel, and enfeebles that I wouldn't have time to do anything else. Somehow I can still pencil fighting in between spells.
When I was approaching level 50, people told me that I would have to stop fighting because every mob had such a horrible AoE attack that it would instantly kill me so I should stay far away. I have yet to see one of these attacks.
People are not all going to play the same. Just because one person may like to melee, it does not mean that there are no merits to playing as a pure caster. And just because one person may like to purely cast, it does not mean that there are no merits to melee.
There are many ways to play Red Mage, and a lot of them are bad. Anyone who goes too far into any extreme, casting too little or casting too much, is a detriment to their party. We do not run up and poke the mob with sharp things, nor do we lay out a bunch of heavy spells. Red Mage is a job about style and finesse. We use our magic to weaken the mob and to strengthen ourselves and party members. We use our skills to make the party run better than if we were not there.
I personally like to be next to the mob fighting. I find it practical as I rarely have time to rest during battle and have an easier time magic bursting and dispelling when I can see the effects. I also have trouble dealing with downtime when I feel that I can be accomplishing something instead of standing around waiting for refresh or an enfeeble to drop. But if it helps the party more for me to not fight the mob, then I will be in the mages corner.
When I party with Japanese players, I have never been told to not fight. In fact, nearly every Japanese RDM that I have played with has meleed as long as there was a WHM in the party. (Even some Tarutarus) And let me head you off at the pass when I say that these are generally Rank 8, 9, and 10 players.
Melee or don't, it is up to you. But either way you play it, you still have to be smart about how you play the job. But I am being far too hopeful when I think that we should turn this thread into a discussion of how to improve the original post, instead of sniping at each other about the details.
When I was approaching level 30, people told me that I would have to stop fighting because my damage would really start to decline. It wasn't all that bad of a decline, and is offset decently well by en- damage.
When I was approaching level 40, people told me that I would have to stop fighting because I would be so busy with refresh, dispel, and enfeebles that I wouldn't have time to do anything else. Somehow I can still pencil fighting in between spells.
When I was approaching level 50, people told me that I would have to stop fighting because every mob had such a horrible AoE attack that it would instantly kill me so I should stay far away. I have yet to see one of these attacks.
People are not all going to play the same. Just because one person may like to melee, it does not mean that there are no merits to playing as a pure caster. And just because one person may like to purely cast, it does not mean that there are no merits to melee.
There are many ways to play Red Mage, and a lot of them are bad. Anyone who goes too far into any extreme, casting too little or casting too much, is a detriment to their party. We do not run up and poke the mob with sharp things, nor do we lay out a bunch of heavy spells. Red Mage is a job about style and finesse. We use our magic to weaken the mob and to strengthen ourselves and party members. We use our skills to make the party run better than if we were not there.
I personally like to be next to the mob fighting. I find it practical as I rarely have time to rest during battle and have an easier time magic bursting and dispelling when I can see the effects. I also have trouble dealing with downtime when I feel that I can be accomplishing something instead of standing around waiting for refresh or an enfeeble to drop. But if it helps the party more for me to not fight the mob, then I will be in the mages corner.
When I party with Japanese players, I have never been told to not fight. In fact, nearly every Japanese RDM that I have played with has meleed as long as there was a WHM in the party. (Even some Tarutarus) And let me head you off at the pass when I say that these are generally Rank 8, 9, and 10 players.
Melee or don't, it is up to you. But either way you play it, you still have to be smart about how you play the job. But I am being far too hopeful when I think that we should turn this thread into a discussion of how to improve the original post, instead of sniping at each other about the details.
Airspirit, as you said your posts are based at your observations, then I believe that you are basically right about what you say.
However, can you try make a guide for whm and blm? I know that you don't like to play whm, but you are problably playing blm to use as subjob to rdm...
I am interested to see your opinions and observations about the other mage jobs.
However, can you try make a guide for whm and blm? I know that you don't like to play whm, but you are problably playing blm to use as subjob to rdm...
I am interested to see your opinions and observations about the other mage jobs.
http://ffxi.allakhazam.com/profile.xml?27496
RDM 31, BLM 40, WHM 52, WAR 23, MNK 15, THF 15,
SMN 20, BRD 13, BST 11, DRK 36, RGN 10, NIN 12, PLD 7, DRG 13
I just need open SAM job and I will have all jobs.
RDM 31, BLM 40, WHM 52, WAR 23, MNK 15, THF 15,
SMN 20, BRD 13, BST 11, DRK 36, RGN 10, NIN 12, PLD 7, DRG 13
I just need open SAM job and I will have all jobs.
Quote:
But I am being far too hopeful when I think that we should turn this thread into a discussion of how to improve the original post, instead of sniping at each other about the details.
that is what i was trying to do until someone said how meleeing is better than not meleeing. It's a matter of opinion as has been said.
as i've said in other threads i don't give a rats ass if you melee or not, we're not in a party as a melee. But we CAN melee, it's a bonus. And i treat it that way, i choose not to melee so i can focus 100% on my spells and keeping everything up. i dont care if i do 300 damage MB or play whack a mole for 14 damage a hit. In the end in a battle it'll only add up to 300-400 damage. that's like what? 2-3 rounds of regular melee hits from melee jobs(in a standard 3 melee / 3 mage party)
I choose to focus 100% on keeping debuffs on the mob, dispeling, hasting, refreshing. I dont care about my damage because in the end it's not alot. I personally find it distracting to melee. But if you CAN melee and not find it distracting then by all means do it. I choose to specialise and focus on 1 thing.. casting. Others choose to diversify and cast + fight. but don't @#%^ing tell me that because i dont melee i'm less of a rdm than a meleeing rdm.
FFXI : Valor LS
75 blm / 68brd / 38whm / 30rng / 75 mnk / 37war / 53 thf / 37nin / 12rdm rank 7
WOW
85 rogue 85 hunter 85 shaman 85 priest 85 mage
75 blm / 68brd / 38whm / 30rng / 75 mnk / 37war / 53 thf / 37nin / 12rdm rank 7
WOW
85 rogue 85 hunter 85 shaman 85 priest 85 mage
Smurv wrote:
but don't @#%^ing tell me that because i dont melee i'm less of a rdm than a meleeing rdm.
I didn't say anything like that. Although I like to melee, I do not look down upon my non-melee brethren at all. I said that there are merits to melee and non-melee Red Mages. People need to play in the manner that best fits their style and what the party needs.
I have said it many times before; the goal of the Red Mage is to make a party run better than if he/she is not there. It does not matter how we do this; just that we do.
Edited, Tue May 11 17:16:59 2004 by Septy
that comment was directed at earlier posts in the thread, sorry if you took it as directed to you ;)
FFXI : Valor LS
75 blm / 68brd / 38whm / 30rng / 75 mnk / 37war / 53 thf / 37nin / 12rdm rank 7
WOW
85 rogue 85 hunter 85 shaman 85 priest 85 mage
75 blm / 68brd / 38whm / 30rng / 75 mnk / 37war / 53 thf / 37nin / 12rdm rank 7
WOW
85 rogue 85 hunter 85 shaman 85 priest 85 mage
Scholar
41 posts
Good god is this guide long and detailed!!!! I didn't have the hour of free time to read the whole thing(me is slow reader) but I read the first several paragraphs. GREAT JOB!!! This is absolutely the best class guide I've ever seen!!!
No if only you would lvl up the rest of the jobs and post guides on all of them. ^^
No if only you would lvl up the rest of the jobs and post guides on all of them. ^^
I don't agree with the "melee every time" mindset. If you fight mobs with nasty AOE, meleeing is out of the question. The AOE does not have to one-shot you to be dangerous - it just has to...
1) Do a large amount of damage and be near impossible to Stun. Why make more work for yourself and the WHM?
2) Throw some dangerous or annoying status ailment, like Silence, Petrify, Virus, Paralyze, etc.
This is why I never melee Anticans or those dogs in the Eldieme necropolis, but I happily melee beetles, crabs and crawlers, among other things. Also, consider that every hit, as long as it does some damage, will give the monster tp with which to charge up a special attack. It won't stop me from meleeing, but it is something to consider.
Melee should be priority 3. Priority 1 is enfeeble and enhance. Priority 2 is heal/nuke.
Taru make the best RDMs for a party, but aren't as hot in solo. Their near 1-1 convert ratio is a big factor, as is their higher int. Hume and Mithra are a very close second, giving up some party power for solo power, but still remaining pretty damn good (I'm Hume). Given a choice between making a Taru and Hume/Mithra, I'd go with Hume/Mithra everytime, if only to avoid being a munchkin with low hp. Elvaan...are borderline until RSE. Galka are total trash.
A note on BLM subjob...Conserve MP is a very powerful ability, but is often looked over because it is subtle. I would prefer this ability over auto-refresh any day, because if you happen to save 20mp while casting, say, 4 spells...that's 20 ticks that auto-refresh has to tick through, to equal that mp savings. It is not uncommon to cast Refresh or Haste, and end up using only 20 - 30mp.
Other than that, I agree with everything else, including the 'smart' Refresh order.
1) Do a large amount of damage and be near impossible to Stun. Why make more work for yourself and the WHM?
2) Throw some dangerous or annoying status ailment, like Silence, Petrify, Virus, Paralyze, etc.
This is why I never melee Anticans or those dogs in the Eldieme necropolis, but I happily melee beetles, crabs and crawlers, among other things. Also, consider that every hit, as long as it does some damage, will give the monster tp with which to charge up a special attack. It won't stop me from meleeing, but it is something to consider.
Melee should be priority 3. Priority 1 is enfeeble and enhance. Priority 2 is heal/nuke.
Taru make the best RDMs for a party, but aren't as hot in solo. Their near 1-1 convert ratio is a big factor, as is their higher int. Hume and Mithra are a very close second, giving up some party power for solo power, but still remaining pretty damn good (I'm Hume). Given a choice between making a Taru and Hume/Mithra, I'd go with Hume/Mithra everytime, if only to avoid being a munchkin with low hp. Elvaan...are borderline until RSE. Galka are total trash.
A note on BLM subjob...Conserve MP is a very powerful ability, but is often looked over because it is subtle. I would prefer this ability over auto-refresh any day, because if you happen to save 20mp while casting, say, 4 spells...that's 20 ticks that auto-refresh has to tick through, to equal that mp savings. It is not uncommon to cast Refresh or Haste, and end up using only 20 - 30mp.
Other than that, I agree with everything else, including the 'smart' Refresh order.
Elusive
RDM75, BLM75, BLU75
Duelist's Chapeau obtained Aug 17, 2006
ZM & CoP complete || ToAU Sergeant Major
RDM75, BLM75, BLU75
Duelist's Chapeau obtained Aug 17, 2006
ZM & CoP complete || ToAU Sergeant Major
Scholar
32 posts
Well there isn't much I can add that hasn't been said already...but ive found the the Redmage is based on the PARTY that is formed. A redmage can never be perfect because parties are never perfect, redmages adjust to make up for what the party lacks or needs. I play as the Undesireable Elvan Redmage but have no trouble finding parties at all.. As far as the MP, DEX and INT goes for Evlans, they only have 40-50 less MP and 6 INT as Humes with the same sub and armor, this is made up for with higher MIND and HP. Carrying around a few extra pieces of armor with you (as I do) when partying will quickly fix this.
As far as the origional post goes.. all I can say is that it has WAY too much information. Redmages have a hard job but anyone who needs that kind of a guide should play a PLD, to me it just looks like an ego trip.
Note: HP > MP conversion on my Body Armor in my profile dosent show for some reason, I need to send in for a correction.
Edited, Tue May 11 20:33:13 2004 by Pbwarhero
As far as the origional post goes.. all I can say is that it has WAY too much information. Redmages have a hard job but anyone who needs that kind of a guide should play a PLD, to me it just looks like an ego trip.
Note: HP > MP conversion on my Body Armor in my profile dosent show for some reason, I need to send in for a correction.
Edited, Tue May 11 20:33:13 2004 by Pbwarhero
Gollum, Elv. RDM/(BlM/THF)- Retired
Kirin, 60 Hum. Mage(Alc/Herbs)
Servers: Shiva/ Zul'jin http://ffxi.allakhazam.com/profile.xml?10463
RDM65/BLM37
Kirin, 60 Hum. Mage(Alc/Herbs)
Servers: Shiva/ Zul'jin http://ffxi.allakhazam.com/profile.xml?10463
RDM65/BLM37
39 posts
The reason most 60+ red mages just stand back and cast is because most are cowardly or haven't levelled their melee at all. They feel there is no point in melee combat because they can't land attacks ... which is due to the fact that they don't melee making it a viscious cycle. Further, many of them are too incompetent to swing and cast at the same time. I can easily forgive tarus for this, but when I see an elvaan red mage that does nothing but cast it makes me wince. You will see some of the best white mages also in melee combat during parts of the battle when they are healing and doing status fixes: they too know that free damage is always good ... though they aren't nearly as effective as a good red mage. It's all about using your abilities to the fullest, and not many are cut out for that.
This sort of totally incorrect and opinionated BS is EXACTLY why this thread should be unstickied.
You are just ONE person, who are you to say that this is the bible truth when 40-60% of redmages out there disagree with you?
This sort of totally incorrect and opinionated BS is EXACTLY why this thread should be unstickied.
You are just ONE person, who are you to say that this is the bible truth when 40-60% of redmages out there disagree with you?
he never said it's the bible truth.. and people need to stop looking at it that way. So what he thinks melee + hume is the best.. he makes countless other points in the thread that make it WORTH being stickied.. yet you people dwell on the fact that he says hume rdm who melees is the best choice.. imho he coulda worded it different. But saying it doesnt deserve to be stickied is wrong imho, just because of all the other great info in it.. not to mention the actual good debate that has been going on for 100+ posts now about it. if people take the time to not only read the initial posts, but all the responses imho you would learn a TON of info about rdm.
FFXI : Valor LS
75 blm / 68brd / 38whm / 30rng / 75 mnk / 37war / 53 thf / 37nin / 12rdm rank 7
WOW
85 rogue 85 hunter 85 shaman 85 priest 85 mage
75 blm / 68brd / 38whm / 30rng / 75 mnk / 37war / 53 thf / 37nin / 12rdm rank 7
WOW
85 rogue 85 hunter 85 shaman 85 priest 85 mage
Smurv wrote:
he never said it's the bible truth.. and people need to stop looking at it that way. So what he thinks melee + hume is the best.. he makes countless other points in the thread that make it WORTH being stickied.. yet you people dwell on the fact that he says hume rdm who melees is the best choice.. imho he coulda worded it different. But saying it doesnt deserve to be stickied is wrong imho, just because of all the other great info in it.. not to mention the actual good debate that has been going on for 100+ posts now about it. if people take the time to not only read the initial posts, but all the responses imho you would learn a TON of info about rdm.
Bah.
Quote:
Bah.
you know you love me.
FFXI : Valor LS
75 blm / 68brd / 38whm / 30rng / 75 mnk / 37war / 53 thf / 37nin / 12rdm rank 7
WOW
85 rogue 85 hunter 85 shaman 85 priest 85 mage
75 blm / 68brd / 38whm / 30rng / 75 mnk / 37war / 53 thf / 37nin / 12rdm rank 7
WOW
85 rogue 85 hunter 85 shaman 85 priest 85 mage
Scholar
41 posts
Quote:
You are just ONE person, who are you to say that this is the bible truth when 40-60% of redmages out there disagree with you?
I do hate sniping, but who are you to speak for 40-60% of RDM?
You think all JP RDM players past 60 don't melee, but I'll bet you money you haven't met and partied with anywhere near half of them to actually know the truth, and you can't discount every NA RDM above 60 either.
The problem with melee after 41 is not that it is bad, wrong, or that other party members don't want you to, it's that most people, as Smurv was so honest in admitting :), get distracted by melee and spell casting at the same time. As Dispel, Refresh, Hatse, back-up heals, and debuffs are necessary in nearly every battle it takes a very determined kind of person to also concentrate on keeping en- spells on and keeping the mob in range, not being in the way of fuidama, etc. Everyone has a different opinion on whether melee is necessary for a RDM or not, you can't really say it is or isn't because a RDM's job varies so much from party to party. You can be main healer, puller/trick partner, back-up tank, or your regular RDM jack-of-all trades. These different roles depend the amount and kind of melee and mages in the party with you. If there are 5 or 6 magic users, concentrating on melee might distarct you from who needs/already has refresh, etc. Even I myself stand on the back lines on an occassion such as that and I am very melee oriented. I think it is more beneficial to this post to stop arguing "best" and "most efficient" because each situation can change those definitions.
Airspirit has some good points, this topic was stickied to give people an idea, not to give them gospel. Yes it is biased, but that's obvious enough that I would think anyone intelligent could ignore the biased parts and realize these are just suggestions based off his experience that have worked well. I myself disagree with parts of it, yet I still appreciate his advice, and he has made me think about seriously changing some of my party habits and equipment, because it is good advice. If your feelings are hurt over someone's opinion on how to play a job in a game I think you have problems beyond whether or not RDM should melee :P
Quote:
Airspirit has some good points, this topic was stickied to give people an idea, not to give them gospel. Yes it is biased, but that's obvious enough that I would think anyone intelligent could ignore the biased parts and realize these are just suggestions based off his experience that have worked well. I myself disagree with parts of it, yet I still appreciate his advice, and he has made me think about seriously changing some of my party habits and equipment, because it is good advice
exactly
FFXI : Valor LS
75 blm / 68brd / 38whm / 30rng / 75 mnk / 37war / 53 thf / 37nin / 12rdm rank 7
WOW
85 rogue 85 hunter 85 shaman 85 priest 85 mage
75 blm / 68brd / 38whm / 30rng / 75 mnk / 37war / 53 thf / 37nin / 12rdm rank 7
WOW
85 rogue 85 hunter 85 shaman 85 priest 85 mage
Scholar
32 posts
Edited, Tue May 11 22:07:57 2004 by Pbwarhero
Gollum, Elv. RDM/(BlM/THF)- Retired
Kirin, 60 Hum. Mage(Alc/Herbs)
Servers: Shiva/ Zul'jin http://ffxi.allakhazam.com/profile.xml?10463
RDM65/BLM37
Kirin, 60 Hum. Mage(Alc/Herbs)
Servers: Shiva/ Zul'jin http://ffxi.allakhazam.com/profile.xml?10463
RDM65/BLM37
Put the melee issue to rest, guys. TP isn't the issue or you wouldn't have your paladin melee. AOE isn't the issue if your group is doing their job. Status ailments are the only true worry ... and even these aren't a big deal if your WHM is on his or her game (how much does silena cost again compared to the damage you can do?) ... curse and sleep are the only thing that keep me out of the front lines and only if it's not a weak sleep like mandras (it never lasts more than a couple seconds on me).
Seriously: the only reason people don't melee is because they don't know how, they don't want the added burden, they never levelled it in the first place, or they're afraid of dying. The last isn't a bad thing if it is well founded (frankly Smurv would be an idiot to melee dolls due to his HPs ... instant death, just as an example), but for some it is like WARs that don't provoke because they don't want to get hit.
Seriously, if you want to cast go for it ... but any way around the issue you will do more good for the team by adding your free damage to the pot. If you don't want to then I'm not going to say you're a terrible RDM since melee isn't the biggest part of our job. It never has been and it never will be ... the reason I focus on it however is because it is the most misunderstood part of our job. If you don't melee and find other ways to make up for it then more power to you. From my experience watching scores of red mages play, there is no substituting the free damage you will deal with any other measure since it detracts from heavy chaining or your other responsibilities. If you can't fulfill your primary duties which are to gimp the living crap out of a mob and keep your party standing because you are swinging a weapon (melee RDMs) then you are just as gimped as a RDM that thinks they're some sort of gimped BLM.
Agree, disagree, whatever. There are always going to be people that feel offended when someone gives a good example for them because they feel slighted or put down. I'm not trying to put anyone down here at all: I'm trying to give information on how we all can do the best we possibly can. I spent six hours inside of the Temple of Uggapileh today with a level 59 RDM teaching him how to properly solo things while trying to get him his drop for Hornetneedle. He went from a cowering back line red mage that couldn't stack protection to one that was comfortable letting a thief buddy of mine drop trick on him so he could tank properly. There were some ... mishaps? ... along the way, but in the end he came out with a very good understanding of some of the facets of our job that he was told never existed. He learned what weapons work on what and how and learned how to turn himself into an invincible god on the battlefield. He learned to combat cast and lost his fear of getting beat on ... all it took was realizing he was tanking EM mobs and taking no damage and that fear went away quickly. Adds didn't scare him anymore because he learned how to handle them with no danger while killing another mob simultaneously with his sword or dagger. These are lessons that all red mages need to learn but unfortunately I can't start an academy in Jeuno or expect many of you to listen .... The tenor of many of the replies here demonstrate that many don't care on bit about the topic and just want to cause hate and discontent for the hell of it.
You can disagree and say WHY you disagree, but saying "everybody does it" or "the JPs do it" or "I don't like you because ... " (see apologist's section) is just crap. Sheer utter crap. It's not an argument ... it is a way to try to salvage dignity for yourself. Saying "everyone says so" doesn't make something right. What is sad, though, is there is no reason that anyone should feel slighted: if you feel I'm wrong then prove it. If you can do better than I'm happy for you and would love to hear about it. I LIKE it when people tell me that I'm doing something wrong because it makes me a better player ... it's all about not taking things like they are personal attacks. This isn't high school here this is a board to help us develop ourselves and our peers. Please leave the juvinile crap at home.
Seriously: the only reason people don't melee is because they don't know how, they don't want the added burden, they never levelled it in the first place, or they're afraid of dying. The last isn't a bad thing if it is well founded (frankly Smurv would be an idiot to melee dolls due to his HPs ... instant death, just as an example), but for some it is like WARs that don't provoke because they don't want to get hit.
Seriously, if you want to cast go for it ... but any way around the issue you will do more good for the team by adding your free damage to the pot. If you don't want to then I'm not going to say you're a terrible RDM since melee isn't the biggest part of our job. It never has been and it never will be ... the reason I focus on it however is because it is the most misunderstood part of our job. If you don't melee and find other ways to make up for it then more power to you. From my experience watching scores of red mages play, there is no substituting the free damage you will deal with any other measure since it detracts from heavy chaining or your other responsibilities. If you can't fulfill your primary duties which are to gimp the living crap out of a mob and keep your party standing because you are swinging a weapon (melee RDMs) then you are just as gimped as a RDM that thinks they're some sort of gimped BLM.
Agree, disagree, whatever. There are always going to be people that feel offended when someone gives a good example for them because they feel slighted or put down. I'm not trying to put anyone down here at all: I'm trying to give information on how we all can do the best we possibly can. I spent six hours inside of the Temple of Uggapileh today with a level 59 RDM teaching him how to properly solo things while trying to get him his drop for Hornetneedle. He went from a cowering back line red mage that couldn't stack protection to one that was comfortable letting a thief buddy of mine drop trick on him so he could tank properly. There were some ... mishaps? ... along the way, but in the end he came out with a very good understanding of some of the facets of our job that he was told never existed. He learned what weapons work on what and how and learned how to turn himself into an invincible god on the battlefield. He learned to combat cast and lost his fear of getting beat on ... all it took was realizing he was tanking EM mobs and taking no damage and that fear went away quickly. Adds didn't scare him anymore because he learned how to handle them with no danger while killing another mob simultaneously with his sword or dagger. These are lessons that all red mages need to learn but unfortunately I can't start an academy in Jeuno or expect many of you to listen .... The tenor of many of the replies here demonstrate that many don't care on bit about the topic and just want to cause hate and discontent for the hell of it.
You can disagree and say WHY you disagree, but saying "everybody does it" or "the JPs do it" or "I don't like you because ... " (see apologist's section) is just crap. Sheer utter crap. It's not an argument ... it is a way to try to salvage dignity for yourself. Saying "everyone says so" doesn't make something right. What is sad, though, is there is no reason that anyone should feel slighted: if you feel I'm wrong then prove it. If you can do better than I'm happy for you and would love to hear about it. I LIKE it when people tell me that I'm doing something wrong because it makes me a better player ... it's all about not taking things like they are personal attacks. This isn't high school here this is a board to help us develop ourselves and our peers. Please leave the juvinile crap at home.
Even the man who got this thread stickied doesn't completely agree. It's one thing for a level 62 to say "Hey that's a good post." They have the experience to know which to agree to, adapt to, accept, and to cast aside. A level 41, or maybe higher, and definitely lower, will not be able to make those same distinctions. That is my only beef with this post. To a lower level RDM, it is hard to discern the difference.
Other than that I would like to commend the original poster on most of the content. I've said before it is a good post, but instead of bashing it I'll point out some very good things.
The spells, skills, equipment sections are all excellent. The role changing section is unprecedented, and very nicely done. I can tell that Airspirit has done his research and is probably a very good Redmage. No there is not a gun to my head.
Edited, Wed May 12 02:47:28 2004 by CrimsonMagician
Other than that I would like to commend the original poster on most of the content. I've said before it is a good post, but instead of bashing it I'll point out some very good things.
The spells, skills, equipment sections are all excellent. The role changing section is unprecedented, and very nicely done. I can tell that Airspirit has done his research and is probably a very good Redmage. No there is not a gun to my head.
Edited, Wed May 12 02:47:28 2004 by CrimsonMagician
13 posts
Most Elvaan RDM give up once they hit lv 50 ? total BS
I did a /sea all on all the RDM, let me tell you the result
from lv 50-60 11 hume 1 elvaan from lv 60-75 12 elvaan 7 hume
Dont tell me most elvaan RDM give up past lv 50 on YOUR server, because i am on fairy as well, so PLEASE stop making quotes based on your own "imagination"
giving up your AF body, more defense and +15 enfeebling for some melee armors....... this is such a joke
your job main job is debuff not meleee...hello, debuff please
you say some mobs are more likely to resist some debuff...um.. that is because you are HUME not elvaan, with my MND and my full AF i NEVER fail any debuff at "MY" level of IT, i have only fail on IT mobs thats about 2 levels above me, for example when i was fresh lv 60 when enfeebling still not yet cap, only time i have failed debuff "1/3" of time was partying with a group of lv 63 at onzozo fighting those big cats.
so please dont blame on "some mob resist more on some debuff" because your poor MND makes your debuff wont stick, Did i mention my sub is blm? if my sub is whm, i can make it even better
you say in other post that "most RDM you have seen" are play like this play like that.... i am lv 61, i "rarely" have 2 rdms in my party, how do you know how other RDM play? this is so weird, my friendlist is FULL of whm and blm friends and i know a LOT of people on fairy server, but i only know 1 rdm, why? b/c i dont party with other rdm....very simple. do you think a blm is gonna have more blm friends or more othere type of mage friends....
one last thing...you dont refresh blm, thanks to you i am making a hell lot of blm friends, all the blms love me b/c they say some rdms dont refresh them. when you chain the mobs, less time a blm med meaning more damage they can output and kill mobs faster. Mobs will aggro blm? not if you have a good tank.
Elvaan more MND makes paralyze slow dia II and silence stick better and longer
taru more INT makes gravity, sleep II, bio stick better and longer...
Hume...? melee better, please sub whm, put on your AF and all the +MND equipment then come talk about debuff with Elvaan
did i mention if you sub whm and i sub blm, our mp will be about the same? i get little more mp out of my sub and i have conserve MP that can save me some, with 2 electrium rings and full set of AF at lv 61 i have about 527mp..does hume really have a LOT more mp? if you have to use more mp to recast your debuff when they dont stick......think about it
Edited, Wed May 12 13:20:05 2004 by walaboom
I did a /sea all on all the RDM, let me tell you the result
from lv 50-60 11 hume 1 elvaan from lv 60-75 12 elvaan 7 hume
Dont tell me most elvaan RDM give up past lv 50 on YOUR server, because i am on fairy as well, so PLEASE stop making quotes based on your own "imagination"
giving up your AF body, more defense and +15 enfeebling for some melee armors....... this is such a joke
your job main job is debuff not meleee...hello, debuff please
you say some mobs are more likely to resist some debuff...um.. that is because you are HUME not elvaan, with my MND and my full AF i NEVER fail any debuff at "MY" level of IT, i have only fail on IT mobs thats about 2 levels above me, for example when i was fresh lv 60 when enfeebling still not yet cap, only time i have failed debuff "1/3" of time was partying with a group of lv 63 at onzozo fighting those big cats.
so please dont blame on "some mob resist more on some debuff" because your poor MND makes your debuff wont stick, Did i mention my sub is blm? if my sub is whm, i can make it even better
you say in other post that "most RDM you have seen" are play like this play like that.... i am lv 61, i "rarely" have 2 rdms in my party, how do you know how other RDM play? this is so weird, my friendlist is FULL of whm and blm friends and i know a LOT of people on fairy server, but i only know 1 rdm, why? b/c i dont party with other rdm....very simple. do you think a blm is gonna have more blm friends or more othere type of mage friends....
one last thing...you dont refresh blm, thanks to you i am making a hell lot of blm friends, all the blms love me b/c they say some rdms dont refresh them. when you chain the mobs, less time a blm med meaning more damage they can output and kill mobs faster. Mobs will aggro blm? not if you have a good tank.
Elvaan more MND makes paralyze slow dia II and silence stick better and longer
taru more INT makes gravity, sleep II, bio stick better and longer...
Hume...? melee better, please sub whm, put on your AF and all the +MND equipment then come talk about debuff with Elvaan
did i mention if you sub whm and i sub blm, our mp will be about the same? i get little more mp out of my sub and i have conserve MP that can save me some, with 2 electrium rings and full set of AF at lv 61 i have about 527mp..does hume really have a LOT more mp? if you have to use more mp to recast your debuff when they dont stick......think about it
Edited, Wed May 12 13:20:05 2004 by walaboom
Quote:
at lv 61 i have about 527mp
heh, at lvl 61 with an underleveled black mage sub i have 780 mp, w/o food. <3 taru.
FFXI : Valor LS
75 blm / 68brd / 38whm / 30rng / 75 mnk / 37war / 53 thf / 37nin / 12rdm rank 7
WOW
85 rogue 85 hunter 85 shaman 85 priest 85 mage
75 blm / 68brd / 38whm / 30rng / 75 mnk / 37war / 53 thf / 37nin / 12rdm rank 7
WOW
85 rogue 85 hunter 85 shaman 85 priest 85 mage
Quote:
Put the melee issue to rest, guys. TP isn't the issue or you wouldn't have your paladin melee.
TP is an issue with some people. The PLD has to melee for that extra bit of hate, and they do more melee damage than a RDM anyway. The idea is, people sometimes get uppity about having an extra person giving the monster tp in exchange for low damage hits. Most of the time, the pt doesn't care if the RDM melees appropriate mobs (although they DO care if the WHM or BLM runs in and starts clubbing away).
Quote:
AOE isn't the issue if your group is doing their job. Status ailments are the only true worry ... and even these aren't a big deal if your WHM is on his or her game (how much does silena cost again compared to the damage you can do?) ... curse and sleep are the only thing that keep me out of the front lines and only if it's not a weak sleep like mandras (it never lasts more than a couple seconds on me).
If the AOE is powerful enough, it would keep me from meleeing. I don't need to have to heal myself on top of healing everyone else. It depends on how much damage it does.
Also, the dog paralyze howl in Eldieme is extremely annoying. It kicks in so often that it can seriously hamper your ability to cast spells.
And you're assuming your WHM is on the ball, ready to silena you at the drop of a hat. I never take such risks in pickup parties.
Quote:
Seriously: the only reason people don't melee is because they don't know how, they don't want the added burden, they never levelled it in the first place, or they're afraid of dying. The last isn't a bad thing if it is well founded (frankly Smurv would be an idiot to melee dolls due to his HPs ... instant death, just as an example), but for some it is like WARs that don't provoke because they don't want to get hit.
If you're talking about RDMs who never ever melee, then you're probably right.
But it's one thing to melee all the time, and another to melee when it is appropriate. You're separating the RDM community into 'melee' and 'pansy backliners', when this is not the case.
Also consider the case when I prefer ballad 1 & 2 over the minimal benefits of meleeing. 6mp a tick is pretty sick mp regen.
Quote:
Seriously, if you want to cast go for it ... but any way around the issue you will do more good for the team by adding your free damage to the pot.
A RDM is still a mage with a sword, not a fighter with magic.
My problem with your stance on melee is not that it's totally verboten, it's just that melee on certain mobs is just not worth the extra bit of damage.
Quote:
If you don't want to then I'm not going to say you're a terrible RDM since melee isn't the biggest part of our job. It never has been and it never will be ... the reason I focus on it however is because it is the most misunderstood part of our job. If you don't melee and find other ways to make up for it then more power to you. From my experience watching scores of red mages play, there is no substituting the free damage you will deal with any other measure since it detracts from heavy chaining or your other responsibilities. If you can't fulfill your primary duties which are to gimp the living crap out of a mob and keep your party standing because you are swinging a weapon (melee RDMs) then you are just as gimped as a RDM that thinks they're some sort of gimped BLM.
Free damage, yes, but you HAVE to weigh the benefits of your melee damage vs the consequences of standing in the AOE of the mob. Bubble shower? That's no problem. Jamming wave? No way. High Freq. field? No problem. Howling? Yeah, right.
If you trust your WHM or BRD/WHM, then okay, he can get rid of your silence within moments of you receiving it. But if you are not so sure that he's watching your status ailments with hawk eyes, then the choice is obvious, which is to melee and struggle with status ailments or have to heal yourself on top of healing everyone else, or not melee and avoid all of that.
Elusive
RDM75, BLM75, BLU75
Duelist's Chapeau obtained Aug 17, 2006
ZM & CoP complete || ToAU Sergeant Major
RDM75, BLM75, BLU75
Duelist's Chapeau obtained Aug 17, 2006
ZM & CoP complete || ToAU Sergeant Major
13 posts
Smur
heh, at lvl 61 with an underleveled black mage sub i have 780 mp, w/o food. <3 taru.
lol Smur i am comparing Elvaan with Hume not taru...@_@ you are the king of mp, /knee
Smurv wrote:
Quote:
at lv 61 i have about 527mp
heh, at lvl 61 with an underleveled black mage sub i have 780 mp, w/o food. <3 taru.
lol Smur i am comparing Elvaan with Hume not taru...@_@ you are the king of mp, /knee
Scholar
41 posts
Wala, not only is your grammar atrocious, but you are mixing up at least two people's opinions in your post and debating them as if it everything was said from one person.
On my server the amount of 50-75 hume RDM is ovewhelming compared to any other race, and at any given time most 70-75 are hume or taru. There are more elvaan than mithra and obviously galka; no one ever said that -everyone- gave up elvaan, but it is true that either alot of them do, or alot of them never start based on statistical data from some people's servers, not unproven opinion. It has been repeated more than once that you are not being attacked for being an elvaan RDM and it's pointless to argue just because you're offended.
It's obviously silly to fully replace AF with cotehardie, but to switch between when you need the +enfeeble or when the extra mp would be more beneficial is quite short of being a "joke". One of the main and best parts of this topic is the discussion of switching equipment. This is somehting that I know alot of peple don't do or haven't even thought about.
And there are certains types of monsters that resist certain types of debuffs, no matter what your mnd and int are. I'm sorry but I don't belive that you only failed once against an IT mob in landing your debuffs; on beetles of nearly any kind past 45 a rdm/blm, whm/blm or blm/whm of any race using eleseal/paralyze won't stick three-fourths to half the time.
As for blm, no matter what tank you have a blm can build too much hate if they chain nuke and don't rest enough. That doesn't mean I don't refresh my blm often, but if you're going to argue a point do it with valid oppostion.
I don't know the MP of hume at my level, but I do know that I have had more MP than my hume friend for at least 8 levels, him being 6 higher then me; and at only 53 as a mithra, were I subbing blm, I would have as much mp as you do if not more. In fact I get less than 20 bonus MP for my sub DRK and I have 499.
As a RDM main without a WHM sub and/or expensive +MND equips your MND as an elvaan isn't going to be so overwhlemingy amazing as to make your debuffs stick every single time so your lack of MP is important to consider if you want to load up on +MND INT equips indtead of +MP equips.
I don't think anyone is arguing about the validity of melee in a dangerous AoE environment, and it just so happens that most parties I'm in must be stupid compared to you because we think it's great for the whm and blm to get an opporunity to level their club skill. We aren't overly worried about the mobs' TP because it is rarely a serious issue. You are also forgetting, or perhaps discounting, mages who always melee mobs without AoE because they use Lilith's rod, or something similar with add effect MP drain.
Edited, Wed May 12 14:05:31 2004 by Halion
On my server the amount of 50-75 hume RDM is ovewhelming compared to any other race, and at any given time most 70-75 are hume or taru. There are more elvaan than mithra and obviously galka; no one ever said that -everyone- gave up elvaan, but it is true that either alot of them do, or alot of them never start based on statistical data from some people's servers, not unproven opinion. It has been repeated more than once that you are not being attacked for being an elvaan RDM and it's pointless to argue just because you're offended.
It's obviously silly to fully replace AF with cotehardie, but to switch between when you need the +enfeeble or when the extra mp would be more beneficial is quite short of being a "joke". One of the main and best parts of this topic is the discussion of switching equipment. This is somehting that I know alot of peple don't do or haven't even thought about.
And there are certains types of monsters that resist certain types of debuffs, no matter what your mnd and int are. I'm sorry but I don't belive that you only failed once against an IT mob in landing your debuffs; on beetles of nearly any kind past 45 a rdm/blm, whm/blm or blm/whm of any race using eleseal/paralyze won't stick three-fourths to half the time.
As for blm, no matter what tank you have a blm can build too much hate if they chain nuke and don't rest enough. That doesn't mean I don't refresh my blm often, but if you're going to argue a point do it with valid oppostion.
I don't know the MP of hume at my level, but I do know that I have had more MP than my hume friend for at least 8 levels, him being 6 higher then me; and at only 53 as a mithra, were I subbing blm, I would have as much mp as you do if not more. In fact I get less than 20 bonus MP for my sub DRK and I have 499.
As a RDM main without a WHM sub and/or expensive +MND equips your MND as an elvaan isn't going to be so overwhlemingy amazing as to make your debuffs stick every single time so your lack of MP is important to consider if you want to load up on +MND INT equips indtead of +MP equips.
Quote:
Most of the time, the pt doesn't care if the RDM melees appropriate mobs (although they DO care if the WHM or BLM runs in and starts clubbing away).
I don't think anyone is arguing about the validity of melee in a dangerous AoE environment, and it just so happens that most parties I'm in must be stupid compared to you because we think it's great for the whm and blm to get an opporunity to level their club skill. We aren't overly worried about the mobs' TP because it is rarely a serious issue. You are also forgetting, or perhaps discounting, mages who always melee mobs without AoE because they use Lilith's rod, or something similar with add effect MP drain.
Edited, Wed May 12 14:05:31 2004 by Halion
At this moment on Fairy there is one 65 Galka RDM (soloing), 3 Elvaan RDMs (only one in the 70s), 11 Hume RDMs (the majority in the 60s), 1 Mithra RDM (Bazaar), and 3 Taru RDMs. This is from 60-75 at 1130 PST on a Wednesday.
Expanding this from 50-75:
Elvaan: 6
Galka: 1
Hume: 22
Mithra: 2
Taru: 4
Expanding this from 40-75:
Elvaan: 7
Galka: 1
Hume: 25
Mithra: 2
Taru: 6
Expanding this from 30-75:
Elvaan: 11
Galka: 1
Hume: 45
Mithra: 4
Taru: 10
Expanding this from 20-75:
Elvaan: 19
Galka: 1
Hume: 62
Mithra: 9
Taru: 20
Expanding from 1-75:
Elvaan: 36
Galka: 3
Hume: 88
Mithra: 19
Taru: 37
Lets analyze this further, shall we? A good way to statistically measure the effectiveness of a race is through turnover rates. People don't typically leave jobs they are good at unless there is a better option available (which is usually the case for Tarus).
% of race post 60:
Galka: 33%
Hume: 13%
Taru: 8%
Elvaan: 8%
Mithra: 5%
% of race post 50:
Galka: 33%
Hume: 25%
Elvaan: 17%
Mithra: 11%
Taru: 11%
% of race post 40:
Galka: 33%
Hume: 29%
Elvaan: 18%
Taru: 17%
Mithra: 11%
There are some tricks to this. There are so few galkas that the one 65 RDM that is out training WS in CN throws that number off. Otherwise you can find a pretty accurate depiction of turnover here if you read it closely.
I suspect you were just making things up when you made that post ... just like your fantasies about enfeeble resists. To put it plainly I just never get them. Ever. As for being an Elvaan the only two spells you get a bonus to are slow (rarely ever resisted), silence (I never have this resisted on IT+++) or paralyze. Every other spell is INT based which an Elvaan RDM is woefully delinquent in. Try using your elemental debuffs and watch them fall off in seconds ... assuming you can land them at all. As for MPs I usually have around +100 MP higher than an Elvaan if everything is the same. It is nice to say "1f j0o h4v3 w4r subz0rz 1 h4v3 s4m3 mPz 4s j00!" but come back to reality for a moment. If everything is the same you will never have nearly the same MP pool as any other race ... with the exception of the Galkas. Further, MND is the easiest stat to boost through equipment ... and one of the least important when it comes to landing spells.
As for black mages they should sit. Really: they should sit. They get fast cast 3 for a reason and if it is a choice between you not sitting and not doing your job or them sitting what would you and your group prefer? Even with refresh they get one more spell per battle, something that isn't going to speed things up hardly at all when you consider that that is the equivalent of 8-9 seconds of melee damage. Pay attention to the real numbers some time and you'll understand.
As for losing MND with a cotehardie I'll still have +7 MND ... not a loss at all. As for losing the enfeebling bonus I find that it really isn't even needed except on certain classes of mobs. I would wager that you have only one change of gear that you use for everything preventing you from doing your job to its fullest and wouldn't understand, but changing your gear to perfectly match the mob you are fighting is called "good strategy".
Your post was another under the category of: "you don't like my race so you suck!" threads. It contains no shred of reality or rationality so I won't waste any more of my time with you.
Expanding this from 50-75:
Elvaan: 6
Galka: 1
Hume: 22
Mithra: 2
Taru: 4
Expanding this from 40-75:
Elvaan: 7
Galka: 1
Hume: 25
Mithra: 2
Taru: 6
Expanding this from 30-75:
Elvaan: 11
Galka: 1
Hume: 45
Mithra: 4
Taru: 10
Expanding this from 20-75:
Elvaan: 19
Galka: 1
Hume: 62
Mithra: 9
Taru: 20
Expanding from 1-75:
Elvaan: 36
Galka: 3
Hume: 88
Mithra: 19
Taru: 37
Lets analyze this further, shall we? A good way to statistically measure the effectiveness of a race is through turnover rates. People don't typically leave jobs they are good at unless there is a better option available (which is usually the case for Tarus).
% of race post 60:
Galka: 33%
Hume: 13%
Taru: 8%
Elvaan: 8%
Mithra: 5%
% of race post 50:
Galka: 33%
Hume: 25%
Elvaan: 17%
Mithra: 11%
Taru: 11%
% of race post 40:
Galka: 33%
Hume: 29%
Elvaan: 18%
Taru: 17%
Mithra: 11%
There are some tricks to this. There are so few galkas that the one 65 RDM that is out training WS in CN throws that number off. Otherwise you can find a pretty accurate depiction of turnover here if you read it closely.
I suspect you were just making things up when you made that post ... just like your fantasies about enfeeble resists. To put it plainly I just never get them. Ever. As for being an Elvaan the only two spells you get a bonus to are slow (rarely ever resisted), silence (I never have this resisted on IT+++) or paralyze. Every other spell is INT based which an Elvaan RDM is woefully delinquent in. Try using your elemental debuffs and watch them fall off in seconds ... assuming you can land them at all. As for MPs I usually have around +100 MP higher than an Elvaan if everything is the same. It is nice to say "1f j0o h4v3 w4r subz0rz 1 h4v3 s4m3 mPz 4s j00!" but come back to reality for a moment. If everything is the same you will never have nearly the same MP pool as any other race ... with the exception of the Galkas. Further, MND is the easiest stat to boost through equipment ... and one of the least important when it comes to landing spells.
As for black mages they should sit. Really: they should sit. They get fast cast 3 for a reason and if it is a choice between you not sitting and not doing your job or them sitting what would you and your group prefer? Even with refresh they get one more spell per battle, something that isn't going to speed things up hardly at all when you consider that that is the equivalent of 8-9 seconds of melee damage. Pay attention to the real numbers some time and you'll understand.
As for losing MND with a cotehardie I'll still have +7 MND ... not a loss at all. As for losing the enfeebling bonus I find that it really isn't even needed except on certain classes of mobs. I would wager that you have only one change of gear that you use for everything preventing you from doing your job to its fullest and wouldn't understand, but changing your gear to perfectly match the mob you are fighting is called "good strategy".
Your post was another under the category of: "you don't like my race so you suck!" threads. It contains no shred of reality or rationality so I won't waste any more of my time with you.
Quote:
RDM/WARs make baby jesus cry.
Best. Line. Ever
made me cry to... cry from laughing
43 posts
@.@.... out of the 145 post i read 140 of them i neglected to read the last 5 just skim through them.
ok here is my opinion I melee when until dagger/sword gets capped usually around 12K XP or when I feel more active. I become a caster if Im lazy makes my job easier honestly it does make job easier, I always have refresh on myself tank and whm when im in lazy mode and keep the debuffs on the mob and I actually remember to haste. It is a little harder for me when I melee but that could just be me. I have my good melee days when I keep up the debuffs and refresh and I have my bad day melee where I totally forget about my refresh or not reading log that refresh wears out on after I see it wears of on the WHM @.@ then I recast on myself then pld the whm lol kinda late but hey they still getting refresh!
About the AOE I read sombodys post I forget who wrote it cause like I said I read 140 posts in the matter of 1hr and you kno how it is. AOE Anticans and Mandys = X for melee I agree I stay far away. But Goblins, Robber crabs, Terror pugils Im not scared of there AOE!!! Im fearless to the Elemental AOE but thats just me again cause I apply the correct Bar-line spell and take minimal dmg from 0-40 dmg on AOE with bar-spell w/o bar spell 125-200 dmg big difference.
To sickeness: ok could I have a reason why you just cast instead of using your dagger/sword + en-spell? I mean the person that posted said 10 hits with dagger doing 10dmg + 8-12 dmg en-spell will out dmg your 350MB that is only happens once in a battle. Is it cause your a taru? You ever think about soloing own coffer keys for other jobs if the time ever comes? I kno damn well that Lv75RDM/37NIN could solo any coffer key they need for any of there other jobs. I bet they have there dagger capped out so they could use eviceration Lv230 dagger skill 5 hitter. Is it not worth just capping your dagger/sword then become a full on back line person? After I cap my sword/dagger Im really rarely at the front lines cause honestly it makes RDM job much easier for me if I dont have to attack but I feel somewhat obligated to when my dagger/sword is not capped, reason: For what I have stated before to solo my own keys. and bring out the fullest out of RDM.
ok here is my opinion I melee when until dagger/sword gets capped usually around 12K XP or when I feel more active. I become a caster if Im lazy makes my job easier honestly it does make job easier, I always have refresh on myself tank and whm when im in lazy mode and keep the debuffs on the mob and I actually remember to haste. It is a little harder for me when I melee but that could just be me. I have my good melee days when I keep up the debuffs and refresh and I have my bad day melee where I totally forget about my refresh or not reading log that refresh wears out on after I see it wears of on the WHM @.@ then I recast on myself then pld the whm lol kinda late but hey they still getting refresh!
About the AOE I read sombodys post I forget who wrote it cause like I said I read 140 posts in the matter of 1hr and you kno how it is. AOE Anticans and Mandys = X for melee I agree I stay far away. But Goblins, Robber crabs, Terror pugils Im not scared of there AOE!!! Im fearless to the Elemental AOE but thats just me again cause I apply the correct Bar-line spell and take minimal dmg from 0-40 dmg on AOE with bar-spell w/o bar spell 125-200 dmg big difference.
To sickeness: ok could I have a reason why you just cast instead of using your dagger/sword + en-spell? I mean the person that posted said 10 hits with dagger doing 10dmg + 8-12 dmg en-spell will out dmg your 350MB that is only happens once in a battle. Is it cause your a taru? You ever think about soloing own coffer keys for other jobs if the time ever comes? I kno damn well that Lv75RDM/37NIN could solo any coffer key they need for any of there other jobs. I bet they have there dagger capped out so they could use eviceration Lv230 dagger skill 5 hitter. Is it not worth just capping your dagger/sword then become a full on back line person? After I cap my sword/dagger Im really rarely at the front lines cause honestly it makes RDM job much easier for me if I dont have to attack but I feel somewhat obligated to when my dagger/sword is not capped, reason: For what I have stated before to solo my own keys. and bring out the fullest out of RDM.
Weren't you the guy who got jailed and TOSed by a Japanese GM for letting your son play for you?
Quote:
Weren't you the guy who got jailed and TOSed by a Japanese GM for letting your son play for you?
what does that have to do with anything?
FFXI : Valor LS
75 blm / 68brd / 38whm / 30rng / 75 mnk / 37war / 53 thf / 37nin / 12rdm rank 7
WOW
85 rogue 85 hunter 85 shaman 85 priest 85 mage
75 blm / 68brd / 38whm / 30rng / 75 mnk / 37war / 53 thf / 37nin / 12rdm rank 7
WOW
85 rogue 85 hunter 85 shaman 85 priest 85 mage
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