Red Mage 101Follow

Anyone else notice that this is the 1 year anniversary of this notorious thread?

I like this guide to use as a contrast for Vs. 2.0 As with any guide, some bias will be impressed onto the guide. And while MargavineLiselle has done an exelent job in keeping the most bias he can out of it, there is some in the underlining notions. This is why it is always good to have a 'second opinion' Which is what I conister this aged, yet still quite useful guide.

There is no need NOT to have it digged up, to be honest, I beleive the fact that MargavineLiselle's guide should not be in a sticky, but should get listed directly next to this one in lists of A++ RDM walkthroughs.

I totally disagree with you giving blm refresh last. I don't know what you have against blms but I as a 62 blm and 66 rdm know that blm is always before drk and brd. You can't mess experience. But w/e thats your opinion just like rdms can melee for like ever(which i disagree with as well since I've tried both). Just don't try to force your opinions on other cuz they really aren't quite accurate.

Do not worry about order. Being first or being last in loop changes nothing for you, you will still have it up all the time. You are may be the last one on who it was casted ; but then, yours will last longer. And while we recast on us, whm, pld, yours is still up.

Think about "priority" in an other way : When we absolutly need to skip someone in next loop, and if nothing special helps us to decide who, then best choice is to skip BLM, who usually can recover faster than others.
Now, if all are full MP but the BLM who is very low, and we again need to skip one (but what happens today !!!) ... no, we won't skip BLM.

Noboby is against BLMs ^^

I'm sorry if I'm talking out of turn, only a lvl 70 rdm, I found this thread looking for ideas on Maat fight, but I have followed a good deal of Air's guide with out even knowing about it.But I have kept All magic skills even divine, Sword, Dagger, and Club capped since early 50's, so yes I melee. I keep my pt's well refreshed even with a Smn healer, PLD, DRK, BLM so I cast 5 refreshes, 4 hastes, 6 Pro VI, and dispell as needed and even as a Trau that hurts mp when Pro falls, but I can do it with only one good rest every 30-45 mins. My casting of other Enf, or Ele, Drk, Div are filled in as needed. If I can do it so can you, I have told many starting Rdm know your job do your job and melee if you want to, just know when the mob is out of your range, but remember if you don't melee early you wont melee later. I am by far not the best Rdm ever but I'm good enough that I've had Pt leaders boot there current Rdm and Brd to get me in to there pt. As far as Air's reasoning being biased it is as is ever flipp'n guide on this and ever other form we all do it right and do it the best, as for doing it Air's way or being gimped you kind of will, if you don't cast, or melee you wont skill-up that is a fact face it. I'll get off my saop box now.

much agreed...i've learned truckloads about RDM cuz i'm still pretty new to the game and i've always enjoyed bein in the thick of the fight throwin my sword around(especially with the "EN" spells)and i'm glad other's agree ^^ thanks so much for the RDM 101 guide i needed it!

This guide is extremely outdated now, I hope those re-bumping and posting realize that.

Perhaps, but it's not even the melee stuff, or the equipment, it's those little inaccuracies that add up to a distorted picture of the class. I wish airspirit had played long enough to push through that final update to the guide that he was working on. I'd go through and list/correct the inaccuracies, but I sort of already did. >_>

During the time it was written, it was hands down, THE best RDM guide out there. Unfortunately, much has changed, elemental staves and various swords were implemented. I beleive it should still be read for its no bs approach towards the job.

The Strategy posted here was invalueable to my success in Genkai 5.

If you're curious as to what it looks like, I made a long dramatic video about my Maat fight which shows the strategy in action. Here it is:

http://teclo.freeservers.com/pictures/killmaat.wmv


A shame that Airspirit got frustrated with trolls and quit. Would've been great to have an updated guide. Hopefully, people are still finding and reading it.

Thank you Airspirit.

.../cry

It's a little of both, the game worked differently and people were also stupid. There are still stupid people today, but back then it was more noticeable because there was a lack of well-informed people who told them off.

It says something about the quality of discourse here in 2004 that the champion of our forum was an RDM/BLM who advocated meleeing in XP parties.

Being open minded is one thing, but if your gonna do something, dont half ass it honestly. I mean, ok I can understand there were no elemental staffs, nor a lot of other equipment we take for granted...but after just reading thru that guide for the first time, I laughed and was completly amazed at how anyone found it useful. I honestly thought it was changed into a joke after air left the forums or something.

Within the guide, I just found so much ludicruios stuff, like nuking only doing 1/3 of the melee output for the time it takes to nuke + heal. Ok cmon now...any rdm worth his salt can put out enough damage in a nuke and heal it back up in no time, and this is w/o things like sanction and the like.

Or the thing about MP being king. Idk bout other Rdm, but I'd take a few stats over MP any day. Especially a stat like mnd or int.

Or how about his statement on refresh? Cmon now, that spell hasnt changed in forever, and any rdm worth his salt can keep refresh up on any and all people in his or her pt 100% of the time and still have time to debuff, buff, backup cure, etc.

He just underestimates the job so much...but then again I will just assume the job wasnt as powerful back in the day as it is now.

Reading your post, I am torn. On the one hand, I never liked airspirit as a person (guy was a huuuge dick), and I thought telling RDMs to melee was a damned stupid idea. When I wrote RDM 101 v 2.0, I deliberately attempted to make it everything that airspirit's 101 was not, because I really don't like this guide.

On the other hand, you are very obviously a noob RDM. And I don't mean that you just started played yesterday or that you're an idiot or anything, just that you clearly have no idea what it was like to be an RDM back in 2004 (in my opinion, anyone who doesn't remember Batallia Downs being an awesome place to XP is a noob).

There were no invincible OMGWTF Ninja tanks, blink tanks were pariahs. Ninjas could not hold hate to save their lives. PLDs were a mere shadow of what they are today. WAR/MNK was considered to be more or less the most powerful tank all the way to 75, I sh*t you not. Seeing someone with an elemental staff -- never mind this HQ bullsh*t, I'm talking about stuff like a Dark staff -- was like seeing someone with an Osode. They were selling for 500k+ in the days when you could get rich selling moat carp for 1.5k a stack. This guide straddled the rusty cap BS on both ends (and if you don't know what I am referring to: noob).

DRG/SAMs with Penta Thrust were hot sh*t. The standard party was RDM + WHM + BLM + tank + 2 melee DDs. People used skillchains all the time. Getting 5k/hr was like hitting the lottery. The combination of crappy selection of mage gear for RDM, and melees more or less sucking across the board (the most viable strategy for fighting sky gods used to be spamming Spirits Within, tell that to a melee today and they'll die laughing) meant that the distance between RDM melee and REAL melee asn't as big as it is today, so RDM melee actually did make a difference. That, coupled with the elemental staff thing, also meant that RDM nuking was a waste of time unless you were in very specific scenarios.

So yeah, this guide is outdated and has a lot of dumb stuff in it, but for its time it was fairly accurate (even though I disagree with how it was structured). Personally I was in the Smurv camp, and time has proven him to be on the correct side of the argument.

It takes me less time to solo kite/nuke a VT+ mob then it takes me to melee an EM mob.. The only time it is more efficent to melee is on mobs that won't sleep, or build a resistance to bind. Or when your farming, because you never have to rest.

Edited, Apr 17th 2007 10:15am by souleman

On *one* mob with low enough HP that you actually have the mp pool to straight nuke it all the way down, yes, nuking will be far quicker. The key phrase in my statement was "over time."

In order to nuke down a VT+ mob in my experience, you have two choices. Either a: kite it really really slowly making heavy use of DoTs to give yourself a chance to Refresh your nuking MP back as you use it, or b: spam nukes, Convert, spam more nukes. Option a is incredibly slow, so I'll assume you're talking about option b; in that case, you again have 2 choices for the next mob, either wait 8 to 10 minutes for Convert to be ready again, or revert to option a in the meantime, which again is really really slow.

Melee, on the other hand, you can keep up at the same pace indefinitely, presuming you're either defensively geared or subbing NIN so you don't spend oodles of mp curing yourself and recasting Stoneskin. So even though the first mob will go down more slowly than if you'd nuke-zerged it, the ones that follow will continue to drop at that same pace, and over time melee will win out (that is unless we're talking about a highly melee-resistant or evasive mob where RDM melee is just a bad idea to begin with).

When dealing with Ts or higher, unless it's like... a crab, nuking is probably the safer approach, but in my opinion it's a hell of a lot slower than meleeing anything down we can physically endure. Of course, this is a bit of a catch 22 since the higher the mob con gets, the more likely our a C grade elemental will resist and become even more MP inefficient.

I've done a lot of Sea organ soloing lately, particularly with the Signet update. Phaubo still remain sleep nuke only, largely since most con T or higher, are still stupid fast with Gravity on 'em, and have some annoying TP moves. I take roughly 11-13% of their HP with a Thunder/Blizzard III, so I'm usually looking around 1300 MP in nukes alone. This doesn't account hasting myself, sleeps, binds, or defensive measures like Stoneskin and Blink. All said and done, between Converts and resting, it takes maybe 8 minutes to kill one and be ready for the next.

Let's jump to Ul'aerns, or even Om'hpmedes. These are usually DC with the stray EM. I melee solo them in most instances in under 3 minutes, which includes pre-buff time. Unless I get a stream of DRGs, SMNs, or even other Aern links, my MP usually remains intact for a good 5+ fights before I Convert or just take a break and rest the old fashioned way.

As a proponent of RDM melee (and SE enhancing it for EXP play), perhaps my dedication and understanding on how to make it "work" is something that's lost in this day of backline only. As I continue to level BLU, another sword class, the job shines on VTs and lower. The same can be attributed to a RDM playstyle where, funnily enough, many of these backline guides were written in the days of "IT++ 4 minute whiff fests" where, yes, RDMs would dutifully suck in their full AF and Hornetneedle firing out resisted enspells.

People like Torzak know a bit more about how to get the most out of WS like Vorpal or even Savage Blade. For some reason I've yet to be able to replicate similar results despite my gear and merits. Nonetheless, gear/merits is the easiest hurdle to overcome. Playerbase acceptance is the real kicker.

Today, I would be genuinely interested in the documentation of a melee RDM's progress through a T-VT climb to 75 in an environment where they're not overburdened like they typically are now. This means things like opening skillchains for harder hitters and tossing out MBs for supplementary damage. It means not being the main healer or Refreshing 5-6 people. It means committing the cardinal RDM sin and forsaking the elemental staves for swords. It means leaving /WHM or /BLM at home in favor of /WAR and /DRK.

Like mage gear, melee equipment has also improved for us here and there. A lack of good hybrid gear (;_; homam) disappoints me still to this day, but c'est la vie. Not every RDM could melee. Hell, I'm lucky to find one now that can keep Refresh on my BLU regularly. However, those with the means and will to actually pull it off aren't even given the chance because a little fun and change in pace isn't worth losing a k or two per hour to everyone else.

Hence why I still hope for subtle nudges from SE to improve our martial aspect. It won't make me any more likely to melee solo a Phaubo, but if I'm not investing so much time in defense, it means a little more can be put into offense.

There's the Morrigan's set if you haven't seen it.

Also don't forget Airspirit's guide didn't cover the higher levels. Now days it's missing a hellaluv of equipment. Anyways, back in the days it was a very good guide, and I personally liked his 'vision' of a rdm.

Neither was right though, RDMs became nothing more than a healing whore. My BLM? A soloist extraordinaire.

As far as them saying I am a 'noob', then yes. I started Christmas 2004, so I havent been a rdm as long as some, and that is totally the reason why I find this guide to be complete crap.

And yes, I have forgotten a lot of my lower levels of rdm. Post 41 (maybe even 48 with haste), I found melee rdm to be too much of a drain of mp however. Between being able to keep refresh and haste up 100% of the time, while still debuffing and back up curing, I would not have enough time to even attempt to melee, even though I never bothered to melee with Rdm, even while in the dunes.

And yes, if our stoneskin can survive the onslaught of a mob, Melee will win over nukes in terms of endurance. However, in terms of shear speed, nuking will go by a lot faster, especially with the food and gear available now. Between cheap ginger cookies, dark staff, heirarch belt, etc etc, getting back 120+mp isnt that hard to do.

So yea, what I'm tryin to say is, I can understand why this guide used to be awsome, but if -any- Rdm takes to heart what it says now, I would have to call them a gimp or a waste, simply cause melee'ing some mobs nowadays really puts a strain on a pt when you can be spending that time resting for more mp, nuking, or backup curing. I love how rdm can be versitile, but hands down, one style of play will put out better results then others in certain instances. And from my experience, as a backup support mage, I help my pt out more then with my Joyeuse + sword skill (I'm getting dagger up...so sue me lol).

P.S.: In case I get flamed, I just think I can keep chains higher in my parties by being a mage, not a front-line fighter mage. Thats basically my view point of Rdm. However, dont get me wrong to think I wont bust out the joy toy when I see fit, but I really dont see it fit to do so when getting exp.

Edited, Apr 18th 2007 1:01am by Salodin

Probably my fault for keeping it linked in the sticky. I don't like this guide, but it's part of the history of the forum and I think I've given it a big enough disclaimer.

Yeah, thanks for bumping it again. :p

Just recently I've managed to push my potential max MP to 1038 as /BLM... this is in ToAU meaning NO Rep. Gold Medal. I don't have any uber god gear like that either, so I'm pretty proud of myself XD

Marron Glace food
4 MP merits
Walmart Turban
Antivenom/Insomnia Earrings
Ether/Astral Rings
Blue Cotehardie (I only just found out these things existed, wish I had a lot sooner)
Marine M Gloves
The cape with +30 HP/MP I forget the name of
Hierarch Belt
Prince's Slops

All in all, nothing absurd, all of it AHable (closest that comes to it is the RSE2 hands) except for the Turban (although it can be indirectly gained by buying bronze coins off the AH), and AF hat is still not much of a difference anyway.

It's so nice to see 4 digits in MP after my vert, other people definitely notice it too XD

Anyway, not a brag topic or anything, just saying that it doesn't take much work to get a pretty badass Convert setup, even if you don't have any sort of endgame shell. In fact, some of the highly prized MP gear (Zenith set) can actually work against you because it reduces your HP, which limits your "potential" max MP. The items I have that boost HP and MP I find to be especially nice because it leaves me with breathing room to work even further to improve my vert setup (this is also why I have 4 HP merits as well XD)

Edited, Apr 19th 2007 8:44pm by Fynlar

The sad thing is I have everything you listed but walmart turban and antivenom earring...I'm just too lazy to set up a second macro for vert gearswaps >.> kinda get away with being lazy these days though because one of my RL friends semi-quit the game and I inherited all his mage-oriented stuffs, so I now have a Serket Ring (and the HQ staves I was missing...yay Apollo's and Vulcan's...)

Oh, that cape is the Intensifying Cape.

I don't trust those numbers. The forum list says SMN forums have about 900 threads but when you actually look inside it says there's... over NINE THOUSAAAAAND

Gosh, I just can't get away from that number... or range of numbers, as it were...

Yes i Might be higher then what this Post says (75, who cares lol) But i give hands to ya. Yes im a tarutaru Rdm, but i still seem to be able to keep up, i enjoy the pts im allowd to Melee in i do fairly good dmg depending on the mob, varies between 0-200 dmg, i havent been lvling Dagger like i wanted to, But i Lvl it on Nin to Cheat>_> lol. My main was a Hume (i deleted Him so many times omg lol) But he was a Rdm too. And through all my lvling as Rdm o_O Never on either char have i subbed whm (i seem to spazz alot) Its always Blm or Nin. Suprisingly i can solo easy (o_O an i beat my mothers MP AND Hp and shes same lvl and Job and Race.... hahaha) i have about 1061 HP and/or 1011 MP I switch Armor alot, Since i have Melee/Pull Armor and Mage/Enfeeb Armor. Id say i wasted a load of gil on Rdm, but im proud of it to o_O. And again, i give you hands. And too all of the other Rdms, I Salute you, As us Rdms Must Stick together. Tuutaluuu Fellow Rdms, Good Luck on your Road to The future fights/Pts/etc.
And at that i know its been a few years since This thread but i never knewof this site at that Time lol

Edited, May 7th 2007 2:17am by Chibikuma

Duh, that's what they gave us Temper for obviously.