Forum Settings
       
Reply To Thread

Red Mage 101Follow

#227 May 19 2004 at 1:31 PM Rating: Good
**
882 posts
The reason, alot of people say "You're a Red Mage, you should never melee" is because....it's 100X easier to say "Just...don't melee and focus on casting" than it is to teach all the nuances of casting while meleeing.

Most of those nuances, timing, etc, you can never teach accurately. Many are very difficult to explain, and as some red mages get higher level...they just "Know" when to melee, when not to, and why, and what spells to throw in what order. It's that experience thing going, the more you play the job, the more unspoken nuances you learn that are nearly impossible to teach. Because of this, and because so many end up doing melee at the cost of concentration or keeping their mage duties up to date, many people just tell them to focus ONLY on casting.
____________________________
Aracelt


"Beware the engineers of society...who would make everyone in all the world equal. Opportunity should be equal, must be equal, but achievement must remain individual." - R.A. Salvatore
#228 May 19 2004 at 1:49 PM Rating: Decent
16 posts
It's sad to see how much some redmages try to justify their melee damage because they want to swing their sword around.

Here's some reasons why most redmages don't melee, at 65 it should be obvious but here goes anyways.

1. You aren't regenning mana. If you can't manage time to regen mana while fighting, you should learn to. 1 Nuke can equal 500 points of damage without a mb and you can regen enough mana to have one spare nuke. If you think you are doing that much melee damage in a fight try to do the math and see. If you're doing more than that then chances are your fights are taking way too long.

2. AoEs and status effects. Good redmages aren't always at full hp so aoes can hurt. You're also the reason there's another silena or paralyna that has to be cast.

3. By not being engaged in the mob you are in a better position to see adds. Since rdms have decent hp and def we make excellent crowd control. Sure it can be done in combat status but that second or two can be the difference between a dead or alive whm or blm.

4. You don't hit a lot, melees don't hit a lot unless they are wearing a ton of +acc gear. Let me ask this, how long does it take you to build enough tp to WS, can you do it every fight? And you know sword weapon skills generally suck, even savage blade doesn't do that much damage. If you can't hit enough to do a WS once per fight then see point 1 again.

5. You should always have enough mana to MB. If you don't then you aren't doing your job.

6. You should also have enough mana to haste at least one real melee in the fights (real melee doesn't include yourself). Again mana conversation is key and regenning during a fight will help this. Again if you can't keep at least one melee hasted then again you aren't doing your job.

7. Even with one of the better swords out there my melee damage isn't hot, rdm melee damage is below paladin damage and paladins are pretty much the worst damage dealers. See point 1 again if you fail to understand this. I'm using an enhancing sword and even with that I don't consider the damage output worth it.

8. Generally brds I've met will be upset at rdms who melee since it makes their job much harder. Sure you can say it's a lazy brd, but the brd could say it's a bad rdm who wants to swing his sword instead of doing his job as a rdm.

9. How many times has your melee damage contributed to making chain or breaking chain5. I doubt it ever has considering the hit rate and damage output of a redmage. If you think it has, compare it to all the mana you could have saved and nuked the mob dead on chain 5.

10. If they rely on a redmage using a weapon skill for a skill chain, then obviously the group doesn't renkei enough.

11. As for the person who said our AF has melee oriented stats and we should melee, two things. One none of it is geared toward offensive melee damage so that in no way means we should melee. It's all defense, no +att no +sword, no nothing with regards to damage output (I think it was designed for when we solo who knows). Also, take a look at AF2 stats...SE obviously realized the role of redmages and adjusted AF2 according (it's all mage bonuses).

12. You can't wear effective melee and mage gear at the same time and generally you want the want for +int for MB and nuking and +mnd and int for debuffing. If youre' fighting anything remotely tough, you want any edge in debuffing you can get. Plus the +int helps the MB damage. Sure you can swap out but then you lose any of your nonexistent TP again.

Redmages are fundamental in controlling the flow and rate of xp. By careful using and conserving mana usage, we can add damage or healing as needed. Trying to melee gives a lower damage output versus the amount of damage that could be used nuking. It also cuts down on the amount of mana you have for extra healing, buffing, etc.

Speaking as a 74 rdm, and having talked to a lot of people I've yet to hear one group say they like having a rdm who melees past 50. They may not tell you because they need a rdm, but most party members don't like it and think it's a poor rdm. Just because you don't have trouble getting invites doesn't mean you're any good or what you're doing is that beneficial. Rdms like brds are fundamental to decent xp so even a bad one is usually better than none at all.

Sure you can think you're helping with the melee damage but in reality you're probably being less efficient than you could be.
#229 May 19 2004 at 3:56 PM Rating: Decent
Scholar
***
1,314 posts
posted the rdm 102 section on killing ifrit. i also split it up into its own post:here
____________________________
FFXI : Valor LS
75 blm / 68brd / 38whm / 30rng / 75 mnk / 37war / 53 thf / 37nin / 12rdm rank 7
WOW
85 rogue 85 hunter 85 shaman 85 priest 85 mage
#230 May 19 2004 at 4:02 PM Rating: Decent
Scholar
**
664 posts
That post makes me laugh. All of my parties love it when I melee. First, it SAVES MP. If you're refreshing, debuffing, dispelling, and enhancing as you should (not to mention healing as needed) then you will never have a chance to rest. If you do then you are simply not doing your job. Further, as a 65 RDM, there is not a single spell in our ******* that can hit over 400 HP damage regardless of equipment, ES, or anything: Stone III is as good as it gets. Consider that Stone III costs a bit under 100 MP and that I hit for an average of 30+8 damage (nothing on but accuracy gear). Average hit for Stone III at this level with full mage gear as a Taru will hit for around 335 damage. Now it is time to do the math: if you're standing to cast you can either do melee damage or not ... there is nothing there that penalizes you outside of non-conic AOE attacks, so why not attack? Now, you could stand back and neglect some of your duties and nuke like **** and then rest the MP back up or you can get that same damage dealt for free from your sword. It doesn't take a mental giant to figure that out.

As for melee performance, I just point to the 70-75 RDMs that are soloing HNMs and avatars. While in party play it may wane again, at 65 and under it makes no sense not to melee.
As for AOEs, what's the biggie? There aren't many mobs that can do AOEs dangerous to us (that we should be fighting, at any rate) ... those that do minor damage AOEs are usually fixed through Curaga spells anyway not hurting the party at all. As far as our hitpoints go, I never have a problem with them ... but that is because I play smart.

As for bards, they just have to do their thing and leave us to ours. I never fight locked onto the mob, so if I see the BRD moving to the mages I head over as well. If he starts playing melee songs I back off. It isn't hard if you're not lazy. Good bards come to grips with this very easily when they realize the red mage is following their lead.

Now, I don't know what kind of crap equipment you're using, but I've never been outdamaged by a paladin. This isn't a big deal, since they do crap damage anyway, but I usually beat them by around a 50% margin. Telling me to back away is more insane then telling the PLD to put their weapon away.

As for controlling the rate of XP and MP you are 100% right, but have you considered how inefficient it is to count on elemental magic for damage as a red mage? You can drop 500 damage elemental spells, sure, but only at the cost of 130+ MP that should have been spent in other ways.

Edited, Wed May 19 17:09:45 2004 by airspirit
#231 May 19 2004 at 5:03 PM Rating: Decent
***
3,571 posts
I really disagree with most of this guide.

You say to waste money on melee based gear, and pass up on some of the most important things that will help you with being a mage.


Red MAGE, that is not a warrior. This guide tries to turn a a mage into a gimped melee.


You waste inordinate amounts of money on gear that will rarely ever imapct you in party play, and say to pass up on things such as a dark staff and vermillion cloak. Sure, you don't need them to be an RDM, but you do if you want to be excellent, you do. You need every bit of extra MP that you can get. Now, I'm not high enough level to give first hand experience, but I do know from the trend that is easily seen while getting to 50, melee skills decline, and everything becomes mage focused.

This guide is just a set of equipment of what you should use. It goes nowhere into actually being an RDM. It makes a start, but at heart, everything in it refers to equipment. Good try, but I wouldn't want to party with anyone who bases everything on thsi guide.
____________________________

So I wander on, asking where you might have gone
From what I knew before, some things are worth fighting for
Night road leads me to a town because
I'm beckoned by the glow of kerosine and tumbleweed
They're calling out, forevermore worth fighting for
#232 May 19 2004 at 5:27 PM Rating: Default
Scholar
***
1,314 posts
Quote:
but I wouldn't want to party with anyone who bases everything on thsi guide.


i wouldn't group with anyone who bases everything they do on any guide.. guides to jobs/classes in mmorpgs are for 1 purpose and 1 purpose only.. to show advantages and disadvantages to certain styles. it's up to the player to decide hwo he uses that info.

there is no guaranteed way to play any job; red mage included. No guide can be 100% geared to show how to play a job perfect. the original post, and the discussions we've had in the 200+ responses to this thread is great information for red mages to read through and base their choice of how they play their red mage.

____________________________
FFXI : Valor LS
75 blm / 68brd / 38whm / 30rng / 75 mnk / 37war / 53 thf / 37nin / 12rdm rank 7
WOW
85 rogue 85 hunter 85 shaman 85 priest 85 mage
#233 May 19 2004 at 5:39 PM Rating: Decent
Scholar
**
504 posts
Quote:
Now, I'm not high enough level to give first hand experience, but I do know from the trend that is easily seen while getting to 50, melee skills decline, and everything becomes mage focused.


Of course, that is in part due to the derth of good swords and daggers available to RDMs in the 40s. The last combat sword in that range is the Divine Sword +1 at level 38, and the last accuracy sword is the Republic Sword at 34. Through the 40s, you need to wait till 47 for the next combat sword, and not until 55 for the next accuracy sword. Is it any wonder you feel like you are getting weaker over those periods.
#234 May 19 2004 at 5:54 PM Rating: Decent
47 posts
I do this with lower level players as well, particularly ones in my linkshell. I follow them out and we tweak things to the point of perfection and speed ... it is what I do.[quote][/quote]

All i have to say is you have way yo much time on your hands. If you actually go out and critique your shell to perfection your making this game boring. It is supposed to be about to bobbles that you sometimes make. A person can only play in their own fashion. You should be happy everyone wants you and that everyone knows your name but i am sure their is a mage on another server just as good or better. You are in one little vana'dielian sector. I agree that the post is good but you are way to opinionated and just flat out rude to other races. I am however a hume red mage but my best friend who is an elvaan red mage can mage better then mages 5 lvls higher then him. It is all about how it works best for you not someone else.

35RDM - 25WHM - 10 BLM
____________________________
"To be master of nothing, makes you master of all."
Bismark: Lost Souls LS
http://ffxi.allakhazam.com/profile.xml?27663
#235 May 19 2004 at 7:12 PM Rating: Decent
***
1,249 posts
Quote:
All i have to say is you have way yo much time on your hands. If you actually go out and critique your shell to perfection your making this game boring.


I have to dissagree with that post, the thing is if he has the time on his hands (ie not lvling or just farming or maybe just checking out the sites), then I ask you why not? Dont take me the wrong way, Im sure that he is biased toward Melee, but for caster RDMs or any style of RDM, there is a fine art to manipulating the Class.
Reguardless if the time is there and someone needs/wants the help, then why the **** not. Your probally thinking that he does it ALL the time. I dont belive that to be so, and another thing is that if a person has "perfected"( it is impossible to have a "perfect" style of playing,but tweaking your own is a major possibility) then it only enhances the playing for the party, because if the RDM, or any character for that matter, can play as one would denote as "really good" or "uber" or however you'd like to put it, then that enhances the party's performance and overall fun of the game, no matter what the goal of the party is.
____________________________
Cillranchello ~ Retired
75 Red Mage - Shiva Server

Krysalano
70 Warlock, 43/7/11 Heavy Affliction Spec
Skywall
#236 May 20 2004 at 4:17 AM Rating: Decent
Scholar
**
737 posts
I'd just to add my opinion...

RDM should not melee expect when farming.

AoE's aren't the only reason.

BTW No matter how much you hit a monster for you're still given it the same amount of TP.

But like I was saying, I don't want some RDM doing his leet 12+10 damage every 10 swings so the bat can build up TP to do Jet Stream to my paladin, so all the mages can Spam cure on him..

Waste of MP
Waste of MP = Downtime

____________________________
Tarutaru Black Mage (Sub rdm/whm)
BLM Wardrobe...
Elemental/HNM Outfit: Complete
Enfeeble Outfit: Complete
MAB Outfit: Incomplete
HQ Staves: Complete
Resting Gear: Incomplete
Dark Magic Outfit: Incomplete


#237 May 20 2004 at 8:17 AM Rating: Good
Scholar
**
664 posts
The TP argument has been covered. The mob gains 2.5 TP per hit the RDM makes. Since you're casting for a goodly portion of the battle, how many times do you connect? Unless your RDM is hitting the thing over 40 times during a fight TP isn't an issue, and even if it was you could equip a beestinger which adds NO TP to the mob.

I wonder sometimes why people post if they won't read the entire thread. I'm going to put this in big bold caps in the main post too, hopefully people will see it there: dead horse, thoroughly beaten.
#238 May 20 2004 at 9:55 AM Rating: Decent
***
3,019 posts
When I train 6 tw mobs on myself, I dont look forward to their beating on me as a source of tp. I would think the mobs primary tp is from its attacks on players.
Meaning that the special attacks you recieve are your own **** fault for not letting a ninja tank.

Since I hit as hard (often harder) than most plds, I'll put away my sword when you put away yours.
____________________________
Maxwell.Caitsith.Rank10.{SKY}.{MOON}.{SEA}
75WAR/75RDM
= RogueAngels =
Currently: Criminals don't register their guns in New York? Why, how very shocking!
#239 May 20 2004 at 3:41 PM Rating: Decent
Scholar
***
1,314 posts
Quote:
I'd just to add my opinion...

RDM should not melee expect when farming.

AoE's aren't the only reason.

BTW No matter how much you hit a monster for you're still given it the same amount of TP.

But like I was saying, I don't want some RDM doing his leet 12+10 damage every 10 swings so the bat can build up TP to do Jet Stream to my paladin, so all the mages can Spam cure on him..

Waste of MP
Waste of MP = Downtime


as long as the red mage isn't idiotic and subs a melee job who cares if he's meleeing or not. And as long as he's still keeping up on doing all his various skills then who cares. red mage melee is so insignificant it doesnt even matter, so why not do it if you can. You people that argue that rdm's shouldn't melee are pretty stupid imo. And this is coming from a rdm who doesnt melee. I choose not to melee, but if another red mage chooses to melee and can still do his job my hat is off to him. I can't do that, and i'll admit it. Call me whatever you want but i choose to focus 100% on casting, but that doesnt mean that meleeing is totally out of the option for other people.

if you argue about tp gain then maybe you should tell your paladin not to melee and just provoke & flash to keep agro. He's giving the mob extra TP by swinging and doing very little damage.(if you can't tell i was being sarcastic)

did you guys even read the whole guide and the discussions afterwards?


____________________________
FFXI : Valor LS
75 blm / 68brd / 38whm / 30rng / 75 mnk / 37war / 53 thf / 37nin / 12rdm rank 7
WOW
85 rogue 85 hunter 85 shaman 85 priest 85 mage
#240 May 20 2004 at 3:48 PM Rating: Excellent
Scholar
**
664 posts
What is ironic about the whole TP debate is when you are up against HNMs that take an obscenely long time to kill such as King Behemoth. On these you will typically find that only the hardest hitting melee ever engage (assuming any were invited in the first place) the enemy: the paladin will only use skills to keep hate rather than use melee too since this is a case where those 2.5/hit gains will really stack up and the WS of those mobs are devastatingly lethal in ways that mobs you fight in XP parties are not. Bickering over 20-50 TP that the mob gains during a fight is absurd ... if your red mage is providing enough TP for the mob to pull off an additional weaponskill then you shouldn't be XPing off of that mob since that means your fights are hitting over 3-3.5 minutes each at the very least.
#241 May 20 2004 at 9:03 PM Rating: Decent
Scholar
***
2,109 posts
If you are going to melee past 30 KEEP YOUR ARMOR UP TO DATE! Yesterday I had the unfortunate experience of getting a trick attack stuck on when the mob was loose. I spent the rest of the fight spamming cure II on my self (garleige citadel seige bat). If you are playing with a thief it is important to remember that that TAs land on the wrong person sometimes... Meleeing has a major advantage in that when the mob goes after you the pt does not lose hits chasing the mob down.
____________________________
<tarutaru> semi-retired
Main Jobs: 75RDM (sept? 05) - 75BLM (July? 06) - 75WAR (feb ~14 07) 75 PLD (may ~2 07) 75 BLU (jan 08) 75 DRK (~feb 08)
Full Subs: 62WHM/38THF/42NIN/51BRD/RNG37/SAM37/44COR/37BST/37SCH
In Progress subs: 16MNK/21SMN/21DRG/30DNC
I do not have pup unlocked.
Ragnarok

MargavineLiselle wrote:
Alright, I'm tired of being civil, and now I'm tired of being sarcastically condescending, too.

lolgaxe wrote:
Whining about having to farm is so 2004.
#242 May 20 2004 at 9:06 PM Rating: Decent
Scholar
***
1,314 posts
you shouldn't have been behind, typically non trick people in PT stay on eihter side of the mob.. that way that won't happen :p
____________________________
FFXI : Valor LS
75 blm / 68brd / 38whm / 30rng / 75 mnk / 37war / 53 thf / 37nin / 12rdm rank 7
WOW
85 rogue 85 hunter 85 shaman 85 priest 85 mage
#243 May 20 2004 at 10:04 PM Rating: Excellent
Scholar
**
664 posts
Oddly enough his concern is valid. I've had hate dumped on me when I'm on the side of the mob before ... it is a good argument for using strong armor. I don't know what causes this ... game glitch? At any rate, it isn't fun when it happens but is easily handled if you kept your MP up for emergencies. The safest way to fix this is to have your tank heal you (assuming you are using a PLD) and hate will bounce right back to him most of the time.

If you have a NIN tank then things may get a bit uglier. Healing yourself to hold hate is a good way to allow the rest of the group to kill the mob. If at all possible drop a blink on yourself, though you will find this incredibly difficult until you get your AF3 hat.
#244 May 21 2004 at 3:25 AM Rating: Decent
19 posts
I don't care if a RDM melees. I mean, i guess thats what their En-spells for, so they can melee. But if that RDM whines about a WHM meleeing, they should be /slapped a billion times. Hexa-Strike > any WS a RDM can get.

Edited, Fri May 21 04:26:28 2004 by Kunotron
#245 May 21 2004 at 10:08 AM Rating: Decent
***
3,019 posts
Ive got no problem with whm meele. but if their meele forces me into a casting role, things change.
____________________________
Maxwell.Caitsith.Rank10.{SKY}.{MOON}.{SEA}
75WAR/75RDM
= RogueAngels =
Currently: Criminals don't register their guns in New York? Why, how very shocking!
#246 May 21 2004 at 10:55 AM Rating: Good
**
882 posts
Quote:
What is ironic about the whole TP debate is when you are up against HNMs that take an obscenely long time to kill such as King Behemoth. On these you will typically find that only the hardest hitting melee ever engage (assuming any were invited in the first place) the enemy: the paladin will only use skills to keep hate rather than use melee too since this is a case where those 2.5/hit gains will really stack up and the WS of those mobs are devastatingly lethal in ways that mobs you fight in XP parties are not. Bickering over 20-50 TP that the mob gains during a fight is absurd ... if your red mage is providing enough TP for the mob to pull off an additional weaponskill then you shouldn't be XPing off of that mob since that means your fights are hitting over 3-3.5 minutes each at the very least.


Actually, from my understanding, heaving hitting weapons are rarely used against alot of the harder HNMs, due to their ridiculous damage mitigation. Most often, everyone has swords, builds TP on random trash around you, then unleash's a 300% Spirit's Within, and back again, with the only person/people chain meleeing the HNM being the Tank/tanks specifically to avoid that.
____________________________
Aracelt


"Beware the engineers of society...who would make everyone in all the world equal. Opportunity should be equal, must be equal, but achievement must remain individual." - R.A. Salvatore
#247 May 21 2004 at 11:50 AM Rating: Excellent
Scholar
**
664 posts
Precisely ... I was referring primarily to rangers anyway. Most other melees never get invited except as hate batteries.
#248 May 21 2004 at 1:23 PM Rating: Good
**
882 posts
I like to refer to them as "Fodder" actually...
____________________________
Aracelt


"Beware the engineers of society...who would make everyone in all the world equal. Opportunity should be equal, must be equal, but achievement must remain individual." - R.A. Salvatore
#249 May 21 2004 at 7:40 PM Rating: Decent
46 posts
I am a level 39 rdm, and I recently started melee'ng to level my dagger and sword skills. My dagger is level 73, and my sword is 96. I still have a lot to go to cap them off, so I will have to continue to melee as much as possible. Boy is it hard to level them up. Hitting for 0 using a Divine Sword +1 sucks so bad.

My question is, if there is a bard in my party, How can I melee without missing out of the songs, or **** off the bard because Im not back with the whm? Currently if there is a bard in my party, I dont melee, and stay in back with the other mages.
#250 May 21 2004 at 7:50 PM Rating: Decent
Scholar
***
1,314 posts
Quote:
My question is, if there is a bard in my party, How can I melee without missing out of the songs, or **** off the bard because Im not back with the whm? Currently if there is a bard in my party, I dont melee, and stay in back with the other mages.


pay attention to when he is moving back to do ballad and unlock yourself from the mob(* on numpad) and move back to get ballad.
____________________________
FFXI : Valor LS
75 blm / 68brd / 38whm / 30rng / 75 mnk / 37war / 53 thf / 37nin / 12rdm rank 7
WOW
85 rogue 85 hunter 85 shaman 85 priest 85 mage
#251 May 21 2004 at 10:01 PM Rating: Decent
Scholar
**
664 posts
I'm on vacation from levelling for a while now, so it'll be a bit before I can update this through 70. There is a Dark Staff, Enfeebling Torque, and Elemental Torque with my name on them. If I'm really crazy I may just have to get a Serket Ring and Scorpion Harness too ....
Reply To Thread

Colors Smileys Quote OriginalQuote Checked Help

 

Recent Visitors: 1 All times are in CDT
Anonymous Guests (1)