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#252 May 23 2004 at 9:55 PM Rating: Decent
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I'm a level 18 RDM who just got her subjob today (BLM of course). I'm by no means as far along as probably anyone else on this page, and I probably haven't gotten a taste of "real fighting" beyond Valkurm Dunes. But I just want to thank Airspirit for creating by far the best RDM guide, and possibly the best job guide on the net, period. I printed it out (all 15 or so pages of it) and am almost completely following it, save for leveling dagger skill or other endeavors that aren't possible considering my limited playing time.

Right now, I'm finding myself valued by groups in a way that I never experienced being a Mithra MNK before. I love being a RDM because anything and everything is possible...I can melee, I can cast spell after spell, I can take on the role of main healer, I can power-level another player, I can Cure II ghouls to death and Enthunder water mobs to death, and a million other things. Sure, it's a lot to handle, but being the jack of all trades is extremely fun and diverse. Thanks for telling it like it is, Airspirit!
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Valefor >> Bastok >> Sanrea / Lv. 23 Hume Red Mage/Black Mage
#253 May 24 2004 at 12:01 PM Rating: Good
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Updated with RDM 201 ... a nice primer on macro optimization that can raise your performance quotient up by around 3-5 levels easily. Enjoy!

BTW, this section will particularly help those about to face Maat ... nothing like making sure all of your spells stick :D
#254 May 24 2004 at 9:35 PM Rating: Decent
46 posts
Post 41, are rdms pretty much main healers? I just turned 42, and the last 2 levels I was the main healer for the party. Having the responsibility of keeping everyone healed, casting a few debuffs and dispel on mobs, magic bursting, and keeping pt members refreshed is a bit of work. I dont mind really, as I like to be busy, but Im wondering is this going to be how it is throughout the rest of my rdm career? I felt so burned out from last night's adventure as a main healer, so today I had to take a break and fish instead.
#255 May 24 2004 at 11:14 PM Rating: Good
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The only time you'll be doing that is when it is a BRD/RDM/BLM mage line ... your debuffs become so critical later on that you literally won't have time to be primary healer as well. Co-healer: yes ... Primary: no.
#256 May 25 2004 at 3:10 PM Rating: Decent
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Absoultely Excellent! Wow I had no idea what my job truely was about! Thanks alot man! Rate Up!!
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Lestatishido(Diablos)
Jobs:BST 75|RDM 41|NIN 40|{Rank 7}
Crafting: WW-98:|:Fishing-93:|:Cloth-60:|:Cook-61:|:GS-56:|:SM-56:|:Bone-52:|:
Maat Defeated 10-18-2005 3:00am
Lu'Shang Obtained
Matrix Maurauders: Kings of Da Trade!
#257 May 26 2004 at 4:47 PM Rating: Decent
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Another Rate up. (The guide is excellent, but mostly for counter attacking your troll)

I printed your first version and I just printed the second version. I've been a much better RDM since I read your guide... I'm only 22 now, and while before I used to beg for Party, now I'm actually being invited for people who know me, even when I'm in another PT already.

I haven't been able to level everything that takes time (like dagger and dark skills) but I'm working on it.

Following your guide actually works very good.. yesterday I soloed my first IT without even using my 2hr. (a worm, I know it isn't really that much... but I wouldn't say a lot of people around at my level have even attempted it).

Thanks airspirit!
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Mithra 53RDM/29BLM, Windurst.
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#258 May 27 2004 at 3:28 AM Rating: Decent
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Airspirit, would you recommend I be a little more picky when joining parties with no main healer, i.e whm or another rdm?
#259 May 27 2004 at 10:01 AM Rating: Good
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It depends on the level, really. Pre-Ballad II a RDM/BLM/BRD mage line can work as long as the BLM is casting the BLM debuffs to help you save your MPs. Post-Ballad II you probably won't even need that in order to do very well. If, however, it is just you without additional MP regeneration then you should consider looking for something else. Honestly: if they want you to debuff, heal, refresh, and dispel all out of your MP pool then chaining is going to be impossible.

A BRD/BLM/RDM mage line, however, if it includes people that aren't muppets, will do outstanding and is honestly one of my favorite combos.
#260 May 28 2004 at 12:51 AM Rating: Decent
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I was wondering what spell order you (experienced RDMs use). In a pt I cast:
En-spell Slow -> paralyze -> blind En-spell (if I did not have time to cast before) -> gravity (if needed) -> shock... (I only have 2 elemental enfeebles @lvl 36) <I know I should cast dia but I have almost given up telling the blm in every party not to cast bio....>

Soloing if I get jumped I cast:

Slow -> blaze spikes -> paralyze (if applicable) -> regen -> en- spell

Soloing if I am taking on a harder target:

blaze spikes -> enspell -> blink -> pull with slow -> paralyze -> elemental spell -> elemental spell -> repeat elementals till mob is dead

yes I am a taru: 36rdm
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<tarutaru> semi-retired
Main Jobs: 75RDM (sept? 05) - 75BLM (July? 06) - 75WAR (feb ~14 07) 75 PLD (may ~2 07) 75 BLU (jan 08) 75 DRK (~feb 08)
Full Subs: 62WHM/38THF/42NIN/51BRD/RNG37/SAM37/44COR/37BST/37SCH
In Progress subs: 16MNK/21SMN/21DRG/30DNC
I do not have pup unlocked.
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Whining about having to farm is so 2004.
#261 May 28 2004 at 2:30 AM Rating: Decent
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Your spell list should change somewhat mob-to-mob, obviously.

In general, I toss Refresh as soon as it has cooled down (and assuming someone like a whm or pld, NOT a drk or blm, needs it).

In between and after Refreshes I generally lay down Paralyze, Dia II (Bio II once in a while, like when the healer can't keep up with the dmg), Frost or Choke (evasive mob, use Frost to lower AGI, tough mob use Choke to lower VIT), and Gravity, for the -5% eva.

Once in a very rare while I'll throw down something else like Slow or Blind (mostly when soloing or when lacking a pld tank).

Mage types obviously get regular doses of Silence (it unfortunately seems to get resisted quite a lot, even with a capped enfeebling skill and a Solid Wand (I wasn't 48 long enough to get a Rose +1, I dinged, went to help a friend with an AF1, got killed, and donged right back to 47), so that's a "do my best" kinda spell that gets an Elemental Seal in a pinch)

On the whole Dia (and Dia II) are FAR more useful than Bio (and Bio II) and if some idiot blm in your pt insists either on lvling their dark skill or that the two spells stack, calmly ask the pt leader to instruct him to not cast Bio, or find either a new blm or rdm, his choice (especially post 41 when you're in very high demand).

The elemental debuffs are really handy, and the only reason I don't use more of them is a matter of balancing MP use and the fact that I can never remember which stack, which overwrite, and which will have no effect in a pinch. I need to memorize that and the SC -> element correlation for every lv 1 and lv 2 SC, but have thus far been too lazy to.

As long as you have a blm sub, I strongly advocate using said elemental debuffs, even if there is a blm in the pt. In my experience, most have little to no understanding of debuffing or how stat changes affect a mob, outside of Burn and the -INT from that. So most will only cast Burn if they cast any at all, leaving you to pick up the slack. The additional side benefit of using them is that since they use your elemental skill, you can keep it capped or nearly capped (or at the very least at a respectable level) just by doing your primary job and debuffing.

There is no "perfect" line of debuffs, as every rdm thinks different ones have more or less merit, different party configurations require different debuffs, and some may or may not stick on a mob you're fighting, no matter how much you'd like them too (i.e. sticking Rasp on Spiders (earth based mobs) just isn't going to happen reliably on high-xp mobs no matter how much you dream).

As long as you use your head and judge whether a debuff will be useful or not, you'll be fine, no matter what you cast. Don't do dumb things like silence pugils to stop their "special spells" like Screwdriver (a TP move, which silence will do nothing to, and pugils don't have mp to cast with anyway). Use your noggin and really think about which debuffs are useful on a given mob, and which are worth your MP to cast. RDM requires more thought to play than just about any other job in the game, as you have more tasks to juggle and more situation-dependant spells.


For the record, I'm a rdm47/blm23, Mithran, with about 500 mp (changes based on weapons, and goes considerably higher with food), so I don't quite have the mana lake that taru have, but I have a fairly large supply. Even so, it is still painfully finite, so it takes some finesse to get the most out of my MP (only once, due to a massive clusterfvck have I ever run OOM before Convert was up (and often well past its 0:00). Pre-41 it wasn't difficult to run a couple battles in a row without resting by only using the debuffs that were absolutely necessary, and not just tossing random ones about for fun, and to say that I used everything in my ******* on a mob.
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Amastacia || Asura server
RDM 75 / NIN 75 / PLD 47 / BLM 37 / WHM 37 / WAR 37 / DRK 37
Windurst 10 / RoZ Complete / CoP Complete / ToAU Mission 33
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#262 Jun 01 2004 at 9:50 PM Rating: Decent
25 posts
Great, a great post. I found a lot of info that will help my Tarutaru RDM.
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Ikatsui
Server: Cerberus
Lvl 19 BLM, 4 WHM, 2 THF
Crafting Skills: Fishing 3, Alchemy 1
The Taru Mafia, once your in you can't get out...
#263 Jun 02 2004 at 12:47 PM Rating: Decent
13 posts
It is a good post.
However, I must say it is both biased and can be a bit inaccurate. In my humble opinion, a Elvaan RDM works great. I have THF subjob, which makes up for dex and makes me a GREAT addition to melee. I wear a brass hairpin with a nice +10 mp bonus and -4 hp, which is nothing. So basically I average about the same damage as melees, plus enfeebling and backup healing.
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Level 18 RDM/9 THF ELVAAN
Garuda Server
-Goal: RDM/NIN-
#264 Jun 02 2004 at 2:01 PM Rating: Decent
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Fantastic post.

Being only a lvl 28 RDM i'm still pretty much a n00b to many and I'm still learning. This post has really helped though (first time posting but been reading since i started the game).

I always knew melee was a part of the class that could be ignored or not ignored. How I wanted to approach melee was what I was trying to figure out. This post solved that problem for me about 8 lvls back. ;)

I haven't had one pt complain about my meleeing. I still do the debuffs and back up healing and other support that is part of my job. I've even dumped hate to myself once or twice now thanks to blink giving the whm time to save the tank from eating dirt.

How do you keep your macros straight though? I mean I saw that you talked about how you keep certain ones in certain places. But there are just so many macros to create. Especially when you talk about swapping out equipment left and right.

Skull
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Skullone Male Hume -- Retired
75RDM 75NIN 37BLM 37WHM 37WAR 37DRK 15THF 10MNK
Leathercraft 100+3
Clothcraft 60.0
Alchemy 60.0
Smithing 21.7
Bonecraft 8.0
Caitsith Server
#265 Jun 02 2004 at 5:04 PM Rating: Decent
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Quote:
However, I must say it is both biased and can be a bit inaccurate. In my humble opinion, a Elvaan RDM works great. I have THF subjob, which makes up for dex and makes me a GREAT addition to melee.


thanks i needed a good laugh... thf subjob so your elvaan rdm will have more dex, haha. i'm crying.
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FFXI : Valor LS
75 blm / 68brd / 38whm / 30rng / 75 mnk / 37war / 53 thf / 37nin / 12rdm rank 7
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#266 Jun 02 2004 at 6:15 PM Rating: Excellent
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Smurv wrote:
Quote:
However, I must say it is both biased and can be a bit inaccurate. In my humble opinion, a Elvaan RDM works great. I have THF subjob, which makes up for dex and makes me a GREAT addition to melee.


thanks i needed a good laugh... thf subjob so your elvaan rdm will have more dex, haha. i'm crying.


Smiley: lol
#267 Jun 02 2004 at 6:50 PM Rating: Decent
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airspirit, can you email me@ davenportbilly@hotmail.com what your char name is in game? or just do a /befriend smurv, i left my char logged in when i left for work so you could do that.

Edited, Wed Jun 2 19:49:01 2004 by Smurv
____________________________
FFXI : Valor LS
75 blm / 68brd / 38whm / 30rng / 75 mnk / 37war / 53 thf / 37nin / 12rdm rank 7
WOW
85 rogue 85 hunter 85 shaman 85 priest 85 mage
#268 Jun 03 2004 at 12:19 AM Rating: Good
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I honest to god feel the urge to cry when I read this thread, especially when I hear people saying that they're following it exactly, or almost exactly.

I know I'll get bashed over the head for this, and probably lose scholar, but I don't care.

This post is completely useless. It creates RDMs that I cringe in fear of partying with. It creates RDMs that insist on meleeing to raise skill, it creates RDMs who insist on meleeing because "every bit of damage counts", it creates the RDM that focuses on the melee aspects of a mage job.

If you want to level up dagger, or sword, or club, or whatever, do it in a skillup party. I took my dagger up 200 levels in 5 hours of skillupping on coffer mobs in Oztroja without wasting my time on getting a Hornetneedle.


Just because you can do something, doesn't mean you should. I know that just becuase an RDM wants to melee doesn't make them a bad RDM, but every bad RDM I've partied with has decided to melee.

I saw a VERY specific encounter of this right before I quit RDM. There was no WHM around, and we had been trying to put together the party for 7 hours, so we took another RDM. He had just used convert, and I had cured him back up to full, and he changed to melee equipment, and decided to go try and solo a VT. While he proceeded to get us killed, as the PLD had 20 mp, I had 37, and no convert, I asked him WTF he thought he was doing. He said he found a guide on the net that had info on how to be able to be a good melee RDM and take on stuff. Now, I can't prove that it was this guide, but all of the others I have read, helped write, or browsed, have discouraged that kind of behavior.


Airspirit, I remember your fiasco with the fishing, and your credibility was already torn to shreds with that ordeal, as some have cared to recount. So, you'll excuse me if I say that this guide isn't just sub-par, but actually hurtful to someone who needs guidance on playing RDM. I also doubt you've been helpful in the groups that, and I dare say it, carried you to 65, due to little of your own skills.

Am I bitter? No, not really. I had decided to go BST before I was killed, and I got a raise 3, so it wasn't a matter of EXP, but I still think RDM is a great job, and it pains me to see such misinformation around.


And honestly, the part in your sig is so self serving. I've got a karma stalker on me, and I make no mention of it. That's been in your sig since the fishing ripped cap thread, hasn't it? I doubt someone is still doing it after all of this time.
____________________________

So I wander on, asking where you might have gone
From what I knew before, some things are worth fighting for
Night road leads me to a town because
I'm beckoned by the glow of kerosine and tumbleweed
They're calling out, forevermore worth fighting for
#269 Jun 03 2004 at 8:59 AM Rating: Default
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You seem to assume that everybody who reads this will turn into the idiot that was in your party.

Yeah I read it. I've probably read it 3-4 times completely to be sure I didn't miss anything. Will I use it all? Probably not. Will I use some of it? Yeah you bet I will. I already do and it's made me a better player.

I don't take this as the be all of how to play a RDM because it's not. This is just one way to play it that works for airspirit.

Anybody who blindly follows any writeup on how to "play" a character in a RPG probably shouldn't be playing in the first place because it's apparent they don't want to learn.



Edited, Thu Jun 3 09:59:40 2004 by SkullLeader
____________________________
Skullone Male Hume -- Retired
75RDM 75NIN 37BLM 37WHM 37WAR 37DRK 15THF 10MNK
Leathercraft 100+3
Clothcraft 60.0
Alchemy 60.0
Smithing 21.7
Bonecraft 8.0
Caitsith Server
#270 Jun 03 2004 at 9:24 AM Rating: Good
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I honest to god feel the urge to cry when I read this thread, especially when I hear people saying that they're following it exactly, or almost exactly.

Ahh, dry your tears. I am an FFXI newbie, and my first choice of Job was RDM. I stumbled upon this guide whilst looking for some strategies, and I am thankful for it, though not for the reasons you might expect. I'm thankful that the guide is so obviously biased that I can't help but be suspicious of everything I read, particularly since the author goes to great lengths to reinforce the idea that his way is the only right way. In my experience, those are the people you want to give a wide berth. Especially when they start using words like "apologist".

I know I'll get bashed over the head for this, and probably lose scholar, but I don't care.

At least whining about karma/status/whatever isn't relegated to Slashdot.

This post is completely useless...

That's being disingenuous. The post has a ton of great information. I like the lists of equipment and some of the strategies, I can see a few I'd like to try or modify. Most of the opinionated stuff can be flushed down the toilet, of course.

I think min/maxing taken to an extreme is boring, personally. I like getting good equipment as much as the next person, but when I start counting tenths of seconds and crunching formulas, the game ceases to be a game, and becomes work. For example, I am never going to make macros to swap equipment for different spells: I think it's completely asinine.

It's easy for me to say that, because I have a group of friends I play with. I don't have to worry about impressing some strangers, I'm satisfied with being mostly efficient instead of 100% efficent, and I don't care if it takes me three years to get 75 as long as I have fun bashing heads with my buddies along the way.

That said, the post is still useful to me. I'll simply take what I want from it to avoid common newbie mistakes. I don't want to be an idiot RDM any more than you do. But as for the people yammering at me that doing $strategy$ makes me kill 3.423% slower... /dismiss.
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#271 Jun 03 2004 at 4:41 PM Rating: Default
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Well, I will take back the "Compeltely useless" part, and replace it with "large amounts of useless material", instead.


Anyway.... At least no AC here!
____________________________

So I wander on, asking where you might have gone
From what I knew before, some things are worth fighting for
Night road leads me to a town because
I'm beckoned by the glow of kerosine and tumbleweed
They're calling out, forevermore worth fighting for
#272 Jun 03 2004 at 5:00 PM Rating: Decent
16 posts
I think the key point here is to realize that the goal isn't to satisfy some 'stupid' urge to want to swing a sword around and pretend to be a melee god, it's to optimize the ability to contribute as much as possible to a party's battles, both magic and melee. Melee is secondary, period, and the game nicely allows that to happen seeing as all you have to do is move into position and click Attack. The game takes care of the rest, while you sit there and watch the status messages and the party's HP and MP. Setting up effective macros is crucial, and having appropriate gear is good for any job. Thus, an excellent guide.

That being said, I can look ahead (am only lvl38 right now) and see that in the future it's very possible there will be many mobs I will stay away from, or there might come a day when even my fancy new sword won't be doing any damage. But I think if a RDM can't handle doing their job, whether or not their in melee isn't going to make a difference. A moron who grabs a VT mob alone when the party is unprepared is a moron no matter what their style of play is.

Of course, none of this really matters if you don't have an effective party to begin with.

To share my casting order, selected items from this list are done depending on how tough the mob is and what things the other mages are casting:

1. Dia - always a good opener.
2. Shock - if the BLM doesn't.
3. Silence - if necessary.
4. Slow - always.
5. Paralyze - if the mob is really tough and/or Silence fails. Most WHMs I've been with do this anyway.
6. Gravity - if the party has a history of trouble keeping the mob in place.
7. Bio - depending on damage given and taken, and the BLM hasn't.
8. Blind - if the BLM hasn't.
9. En-spell - almost always.
10. Melee. Watch the info scroll by. Cures for those in the red. Dispel. Recast Dia/Bio and crucial enfeebles if the mob's still going strong. Or, recast things that didn't stick in the opening moves.
10a.Danger mode: Back off and focus on Cures and crucial enfeebles (Silence, Dispel, Sleep). Phalanx+Stoneskin and take the job of zoning the mob if necessary, or (maybe with the help of a MNK or NIN) keep its attention while others flee.
11. Post-battle. Run back to join the WHM & BLM, listen to Mage's Ballad, cast crucial Cures, rest.
#273 Jun 03 2004 at 6:00 PM Rating: Default
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Let me tell you, with capped sword skill, me meleeing was worthless. Even if I would go viking shield/wise wiz anelace, I would do crap damage. Giving TP to a mob is a bad thing. It may not matter for one hit, but if you continue to hit, it builds up over time. One extra sickle slash, one extra bomb drop, one extra spore, and you cause the death of your party.
____________________________

So I wander on, asking where you might have gone
From what I knew before, some things are worth fighting for
Night road leads me to a town because
I'm beckoned by the glow of kerosine and tumbleweed
They're calling out, forevermore worth fighting for
#274 Jun 03 2004 at 7:20 PM Rating: Good
22 posts
Good guide, though melee is rather wasteful, and the equipment switching and purchasing is alot of effort to do the amount of damage during an entire battle that a damage dealer can do in one hit.
#275 Jun 03 2004 at 11:27 PM Rating: Good
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I don't rate people down for contrary posts: that is what forums are for. That kind of crap is juvinile to say the least.

Any red mage that forsakes their duties to do nothing but melee is an idiot. I never recommended that anyone do that. Read it again carefully.

TP? Do you realize that it would take around 40 non-0 hits from a red mage to cause one extra mob WS? 40. 2.5 TP per hit, just like what your Paladin gets ... you don't see them shooting off weapon skills like crazy do you? If you're really that absurdly concerned get yourself a beestinger and you'll almost never add any TP to the mob. Most WS the mobs use are not TP based: gather yourself a herd of ultra-low level mobs and let them swing at you. Even if they never hit they will occassionally use weapon skills on you. These are not TP related ... but their scarcity of use is just a characteristic of lower level mobs: they are easy because they don't use them as often. Ever seen a goblin throw three bombs back to back? I have. Try telling me that is TP based.

What I advocate is using all of your skills. Your magery comes first. Melee comes second. This was made plain to those who didn't read this with a jaundiced eye. Is your party fighting skeletons that spam drainga? Don't melee! Are they fighting lizards? Chop em up! It's called common sense, something many people lack.

Here I am at 70 and I find myself the equivalent of 1/3 of a primary melee in my parties (on suitable mobs ... some such as skeletons, bombs, or cats I will not melee against anymore since their WS are dangerous to our magery or party) on top of flawlessly doing my mage duties. Is swapping gear more difficult than sitting back lazily? Of course it is! That is what excelling is all about: if it was easy everyone would do it.

Granted, some people shouldn't ever melee. Some, like Smurv, are more frail than others since he is a Taru. He needs to pick his battles if he melees at all. Some, like many on my server, are too thickheaded to do their mage duties without adding any more thinking to the mix. I would scream bloody murder if one of them rushed in with a sword when they couldn't take care of anything else properly.

Your line of thinking is akin to blaming the gun manufacturers for murder: they provide tools and information that others misappropriate and abuse. It is not their fault that other people are idiots, now is it?

I take pride in seeing Red Mages start to blossom into better mages due to good information. I have seen many on my server now start farming for equipment that they never would have bothered with earlier thinking they could skate. I have seen others incorporate melee into their repertoire without sacrificing their magery for added damage bonuses. This does me good to see this: they are becoming better mages. If some take my post wrong and think that they are some kind of melee god then they obviously are a bit dull-witted and need to take some reading comprehension courses. Never was it said that they could do this.

If you are bitter because my post doesn't hash with your playstyle then keep that to yourself: I'm not that interested one way or another. If you have information that will further enhance the abilities of our fellow red mages I would be more than happy to accept it. It's all about not jumping on the bias train and looking at things objectively to see how they could or could not assist you in your particular style of play. Melee isn't for everyone: it is simply another tool that can help us go farther if we put in the effort to learn how to do it PROPERLY.
#276 Jun 04 2004 at 6:15 AM Rating: Decent
16 posts
Quote:
One extra sickle slash, one extra bomb drop, one extra spore, and you cause the death of your party.


Alright, lets make all parties consist of a PLD, a WHM, and 4 BLMs. That way they'll be able to take down mobs fast and you won't have all those annoying melee jobs causing special attacks. Just because a RDM is meleeing, it's THEIR fault a mob is able to do its special attack? What kind of logic is that? What if a party has no RDM? I guess that extra Warrior has to stand back and not attack so the mob won't do it's special attack.

Edited, Fri Jun 4 07:17:37 2004 by Seiran
#277 Jun 04 2004 at 6:47 AM Rating: Decent
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airpirit, rate up. i applaud your effort to share, and your humor too. of course, your guide is a clear invite for very strong counter-opinions, since yours came across strong as well. take heart. i just wish i didn't have to actively filter through so many of angry exchanges, insults, etc, just to hear what everyone has to say.... ; ;

anyway :D

airspirit is also right about the tp thing... my static is currently doing high lvl gobs in gustav tunnel, and these fellas toss a bomb within 5-10 seconds of the fight sometimes, and one right after (mr drk stunned, and was still waiting for a reccast! lol challenging little things, those gobs!). i'm beginning to reconsider that perhaps mobs are able to pull of certain moves regardless of tp. if that were true, then the anti-melee argument in regards to contributing mob's tp wouldn't hold ground anymore. who knows, right? i mean, higher lvl fellow rdms and brds know the spam buff crabs do sometimes.

oops, i digress.

i do melee, and while i can understand the frustrations of other players towards meleeing rdms, i don't think it's sinful. i have the fortune of a static group with friends to not ever have to have this as an issue. if i ever have to do catch up exp in a pick up group, i'll check with the leader first. but since i live in asia, my timing is with the jpn players and australian players etc; jpn parties ask me melee (mebichan, crist, preamble, etc are some jpn players i play with) so i'm not so sure about hearing all the stories about "good high lvl jpn rdms do not melee ever". i'm on asura server, and my timezone is +8 GMT. i'm not trying to insinuate anything, but i have yet to really see the "applied reality" of pro high lvl jpn rdms "never ever meleeing" because "it's always bad or stupid", as some people on this forum have sworn on. :> with the jpn groups i've encountered farming/fishing (they exp in alternate places and avoid overpopulated zones like crawler's nest), the rdms are meeling on top of casting. then again, maybe it's just on asura.

i have notice in these forums (including mnk, nin, etc), there is very strong peer pressure to conform ("mnk MUST sub war or be prepared to face wrath and persecution!"). while good advice is welcome, and sharing of thoughts and views should be highly encouraged, most of the time there is too much yelling back and forth on who's "right" and who's "noob"... :(

so, with that thought, i applaud airspirit for sharing (his pro-melee views), and i applaud shiia for his/hers (anti-melee views).


best of luck to all :) ok, back to fishing. /wave /smile
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#278 Jun 04 2004 at 9:47 AM Rating: Decent
35 posts
i just started FFXI on 30 May 04. THought the warrior mage combo of Red Mage would be fun. After reading the guide i was left wondering...does anyone know of a good book to read instead.?? lol.

played eq a couple years, this game appears to be better already, only level 5 atm and gill seems hard to get, guessineed to look fer quests, and get to work.
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...it was a dark and warm night, then the loud sounds of metal on metal, a knife raised, a woman screams,bright lights, im turned upside down and someone hit me.....a strange welcome your planet has
#279 Jun 04 2004 at 12:28 PM Rating: Decent
2 posts
Galka, a "terrible race" for mage? There are no terrible races. Only people who can't afford astrals/good equipment. :D
#280 Jun 04 2004 at 2:03 PM Rating: Decent
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122 posts
Most of the stuff airspirint has posted, I had figured out on my own by just playing or having other RDMs or parties tell me. There is value to what he says. I don’t follow what is says 100% to the letter, but people should look into what he says and adapt it to there own playing style. I am only a RDM21, and haven’t been that level very long, so my insight may not count for much. I’ve never been kicked from a party nor had anyone complain about how I was doing something. I have had them suggest things, so I do consider my self to be a good RDM. I also have no problems finding a party ever. Even when I’m not looking and have made it clear that I’m not. I don’t like going anon.

I personally had not thought about switching weapons in battle to improve my stats while I’m casting Debuffs. This is something I’m going to experiment with and see if it helps me out on some of the higher-level monsters. Thank you airspirint.

Keeping all your main skills caped is a must. I’d like to add thought, don’t do this in a leveling party or you will get the party killed or you will keep them from chaining. RDMs are great solo characters, which is why I play one. Every few levels solo for a while and focus on your skill caps. This is also a good way to make money, as it is very expensive to be a RDM. I soloed from LVL20 to LVL21, took my Dagger skill from 10 to 60 (skill cap at lvl20), brought all my other primary skills up and made my level in about 8 playing hours, fighting “EM” with no problems out in the dunes. Unlike airspirint, I can kill a “T”, but the odds are not in my favor.

The one thing I would like to suggest that I’ve not seen in any RDM guide is an in-depth explanation of what your job in a party means. I guess most people think it is common since, but a good example is the very first time I was expected to be a primary healer, I of course was casting Cure II left and right and would have no MP after a fight. This is not a correct way to be a primary healer in any style of play. As a primary healer, I agree you should not be up in the fight, because if you die, who is going to heal the party. I do keep my sword out just in case the monster comes after me. In just about every other role, nuker, backup tank, debuffer, backup healer, at my level you should be up in the fighting using your sword or dagger. I have seen no reason not to be. RDM’s, should be taking very little damage and if you have keep your armor up, the amount of damage you take should be no different than the other tanks.

I also run into a lot of RDMs that want to play all their skills all the time and it is the biggest complaint I hear in parties about other RDM’s. The first thing you should ask when you join a party is what role they need you to play, as it will change based on what members are in the party. If you are in a party that already has everything, then you can play around with using all your skills, but the key is to remember, conserve your MP.

Debuffing should always be the RDMs job; no matter what role you are playing in the party. The key is if you are also acting as something else, you should limit the amount of debuffs you drop. The goal to being a good RDM is conserving your MP while getting the job done. Know your debuffs and monsters! If you are fighting something that has a high deference, you should use dia. This way your tanks can do more damage and hit more often. If the monsters hits hard you need bio, to drop how much they can hit the party for. Some times it’s a judgment call, as monsters will have both. In most cases I rely more on dia, as you want the fight to be over as quick as possible and on to the next chain.

If you have another RDM in your party, communication is absolute and it is important in any party. If you both are dropping the same debuffs or canceling each other out, you are doing nothing but wasting MP. At level 13, I was in a full party of nothing but RDM’s in the maze. It was actual very effective and chaining Maze Makers was great. We would get between 3 to 4 chains before the whole party had to rest. But we all knew what are job was in the party and we stuck to it.

The one place I very from airspirit is +1 Armor and Weapons. I always take a look at how much more dose it cost and what extra it gives me. If its only 2 or 3k more than sure why not. If their 10k more and only give me one extra def point, it’s just not worth it. This may change when I get to a higher level, but so far, this method has worked out great for me. Shop around! Check all the shops, all the Auction Houses, all the people bazaars you can find. I got my fine jerkin for the same price as a lizard jerkin from a bazaar in windy. Also anything that will give you INT, MND or MP is a must. A lot of guides will tell you to focus on just your MP or just your INT. Well doing so will lock you into one play style, even if you have a BLM sub, you are still expected to heal every now and then, so MND helps! Also plan ahead, buy stuff that your sub job will also be able to use as you are leveling it, this is why its nice to have your dagger skill up with your BLM as your sub.

You want all your debuff spells. Why diaga, its worth less. No it works great when you are farming solo. A lot of your low level spells you can get from monsters, check to see if something drops it before you spend money on it, or any spell for that matter. Also don’t get it until you know you are going to need it. You use them most when you are solo, I typically don’t use them in a party. So if you aren’t going to be fighting something solo, that can put you to sleep, you don’t need to have barsleep yet. I get all my elemental spells, as you will need them. They are a must if you are going to solo "EM" and "T" or if you are going to be the nuker in a party. Once again know your monsters, figure out what two spells inflect the most damage and switch between toughs two spells as fast as possible, but no more than is needed. No reason to cast a spell that is going to consume your MP and only do 8 points of damage, when you have another spell that costs the same MP and will do 20 points.

This is a personal thing and may not work for everyone. Don’t waste your macro space. I can in most cases (on PS2) use my controller to select cure or cure II and the person I need to cure faster than a person who has 6 different cure macros for everyone in the party. Macros are for when you need to chain several spells or commands together, such as your buffs and debuffs. The rest is just practice of kicking up the menu and learning to hit all the selections fast. Cute saying are funny, but not needed in the party. You should be using your /p messages to tell your party what you are doing when it is needed, such as casting dia to prevent your BLM from casting bio. Don’t add to the screen scroll. We need to see what the monster is preparing to do, so we know to start our next action, such as getting ready for curing when we see a gob is preparing to do a bomb toss. You can’t always tell due to lag, you need to see the text. Another down side to using macros is you are unable to adapt to a change until the macro ends, such as curing someone who all of a sudden got hit for a 150 points. You don’t need nuking macros; you can do this just as fast via the menu with some practice (or I can on the PS20).

Something that I think is a mistake for any RDM is power leveling or doing nothing but leveling in parties all the time. What will happen is certain skills will get up to cap, like healing, but some of your other very important skills like evasion will not, so you end up getting type casted into one job, or spending all kinds of very boring time getting your caps back up. This is why I think some higher levels RDM’s don’t get into the fight and just stand back. The RDM is a very slow job to level; because of the need for us to solo and keep are skill caps up and farming for money, and buying all the stuff we need. Most of my friends who started at the same time I did, who aren’t RDM’s are now several levels higher than me. It is very common for me while my friends are out leveling in parties and going up 2 levels in just a few hours, that I’m standing around a zone doing nothing but healing people and casting shell or protect, but at my level my cure and cure II still do as much as a WHM. I have seen RDM’s who are my level whose cure still is only doing 15 points, but all they do is play there RDM as a fighter or a Black mage and they will end up being casted as doing that and only that. If what you really want to be is a black mage who can cure its self, then play a BLM/WHM. The job of RDM isn’t for everyone.

I hope my lower level view has given some insight and help improve any further guides, and I will concede my view may not be right or may not be wrong, its just my view and my playing style. I am always also open to learning and trying other people’s methods.
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#281 Jun 04 2004 at 6:19 PM Rating: Default
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3,571 posts
Airspirit, I find the fact that you call your guide "Good Information" incredibly funny.


If a Red Mage becomes good, then it's hardly from reading your guide, don't inflate your ego as so.


As for you not rating down people for contrary messages... Oh, that a lie that is. Maybe not in the recent past, but I can think of a thread where you attempted to nuke everyone who disagreed.


Also, FYI, it is possible for RDM to be good at melee, good enough to be able to take T and T+ mobs solo. I can do that in a war of attrition, and win, but I certainly didn't follow your guide.

Your guide is 95% filler, and the 5% that is worth anything can easily be learned by a player who is worth his salt.
____________________________

So I wander on, asking where you might have gone
From what I knew before, some things are worth fighting for
Night road leads me to a town because
I'm beckoned by the glow of kerosine and tumbleweed
They're calling out, forevermore worth fighting for
#282 Jun 04 2004 at 6:38 PM Rating: Decent
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There are better guides than this...

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Name: Ziden AF1(X)AF2(X)AF3(O)AF4(O)AF5(O)AF6(O)
RDM50+/BLM25+
http://ffxi.allakhazam.com/profile.xml?6500
Server: Kujata
#283 Jun 04 2004 at 8:26 PM Rating: Decent
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1,249 posts
To Chtulhu the Quick(by the way, the Necronomicon was a intresting book). But when I looked at this guide as a low lvl player (still am, working on my sub now) but I looked at it as a way to figure out and get a better understanding of what my roles are post 20. There is no question that a Good red mage will already know this, as I know my role from 1-20, already experimented with things like being the primary healer, I've yet to be a primary tank but I have taken over when the puller gets a IT mob thats more like a IT+ for us, and the war's life is dwindling and all the mages have a sliver of MP left, I just spam what cures I can and hope I survive while the other Melee's rip ***.

There is no question that anyone that has already played up to the levels stated in this that they are going to know what they are supposed to be doing or what they arn't supposed to do or what they want to do, and it is in their playing styles that seperate the good RDMs from the bad RDMs. Reguardless I think that this guide is good for low lvl players to refrence on because it covers things that we have not yet experienced. If knowledge is power, then any Red Mage is a tank.(not in terms of the game)
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Cillranchello ~ Retired
75 Red Mage - Shiva Server

Krysalano
70 Warlock, 43/7/11 Heavy Affliction Spec
Skywall
#284 Jun 04 2004 at 8:41 PM Rating: Good
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I have never rated someone down for disagreeing. I have, however, rated people down for being ********. There is a definite difference. As for my fishing guide being debunked, I don't know what you are talking about. I know people that have used it (expanded now through 60) and powered to 50 skill in about three weeks. Some take longer. Some take shorter. Some that posted in that guide just were the typical clueless trolls that like to shred everything that they come across.

Red Mage 202 is now Posted for your reading pleasure covering step-by-step ways to beat Maat with ease (unless you are a Galka, of course ... you'll have to find a different method yourself: I can't test them out). Took me seven tries, but in the end I made a perfect equipment and macroset from trial and error that will guarantee you victory 19/20 tries.
#285 Jun 04 2004 at 11:10 PM Rating: Default
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3,571 posts
Maat is an incredibly easy fight, there's no need to debuff or any of that bull you posted. All it takes is chainspell, vile elixer +1s, convert, and Aero III. Someone told me to spam Aero III, use vile elixer +1s, convert, spam Aero III, use vile elixer. I did that, and was 3 seconds away from having the record for the fight. I did it on my first try, using all AF, except for hat and body, had Vermillion Cloak, which, BTW, can be the difference between being a "Good" RDM and a "Great" RDM. With it, refresh, mages ballad 2, you regenerate 8mp per tick. The only other "special" item I had was a Serket ring.

Using debuffs is a complete waste, with the exlusion, perhaps, of Sleep 2 / ele seal while using convert. I did do that.
____________________________

So I wander on, asking where you might have gone
From what I knew before, some things are worth fighting for
Night road leads me to a town because
I'm beckoned by the glow of kerosine and tumbleweed
They're calling out, forevermore worth fighting for
#286 Jun 04 2004 at 11:23 PM Rating: Decent
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1,314 posts
the only debuffs he listed was diaga to get rid of blink, and dispel...... do you have some sort of beef towards airspirit, you seem to pick his post apart as if he killed your first born lol.
____________________________
FFXI : Valor LS
75 blm / 68brd / 38whm / 30rng / 75 mnk / 37war / 53 thf / 37nin / 12rdm rank 7
WOW
85 rogue 85 hunter 85 shaman 85 priest 85 mage
#287 Jun 05 2004 at 3:32 AM Rating: Default
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3,571 posts
TBH, I didn't read through anything about it until after I posted, but I do remember him saying stuff about changing equip to make sure debuffs stick, so I assumed there was more... I still think Dispel and Diaga are useless, he went down easy without either of them.


As for Airspirit... I have a natural dislike for someone who claims to have discovered a secret, brags about it, then refuses to release any good info on it, and then later gets proven to be lying, and then nuking everyone who said he was a liar in the thread. Then, I see him making a guide that I disagree strongly with. It makes for me being rather displeased.

Most of the people who have said it is a good guide have been lower level, with some expceptions. Most of the higher level people in this thread responding have been against it, which I think is pretty good proof that it isn't worth its salt.
____________________________

So I wander on, asking where you might have gone
From what I knew before, some things are worth fighting for
Night road leads me to a town because
I'm beckoned by the glow of kerosine and tumbleweed
They're calling out, forevermore worth fighting for
#288 Jun 05 2004 at 10:00 AM Rating: Good
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664 posts
If you're referring to rusty caps I have over 100 emails from people on this site thanking me for that information prior to the nerf. "Proven to be lying?" Are you insane or deluded? Hey Smurv, will you tell this idiot that it is indeed possible to catch massive amounts of Rusty Caps? I'm sure he can since he tossed 20 of them at me the other day for crafting. Further, if your feeble understanding of the game prevented you from noticing it earlier do an experiment: sit on a bridge in windy waters by the mog house for three hours and fish for carp. Count how many moats/tris/golds you catch. Then to behind the building where you get your fenrir quest and stand southbound on the round platform and cast into the lilypads for three hours. Compare results. No tricoloreds, twice the golds, and 50% more moats in the same period. Repeatable every time. Your catch rate is determined not only by the zone but your specific location in the zone. Ask the guys in bubu fishing for shells why they do it outside of the Onzozo zone: it is because it is the highest catch rate there. I'm sure Smurv can attest to that as well. If you don't believe me I hope you don't think he's in on some massive conspiracy against you as well ... you really can take that tinfoil hat off.

Just because you were to dull-witted to recognize good information doesn't mean the information was correct. I didn't want to have 30 idiots stacked onto one patch of land spawning monsters on each other like crazy. Incidentally, the location was right near the shipwreck in Valkurm and when the cap nerf hit that location was nerfed too: again, them fixing an obscene bug. I had a few people in that thread find the location on their own through testing and one person made over two million before the nerf hit. Don't go spouting garbage because it really makes you look stupid. I'm not going to respond to any more of your idiocy on this thread: you have now clearly revealed that you are here for nothing more than to troll this thread so I will not be wasting any more time with you or your delusional rants. If that is what you're after Gamefaqs.com would be a more suitable place to find likeminded individuals to share in your lowbrow entertainment.

As for people disagreeing you have seen only a couple to a few people that "didn't like it" that were higher levels in this thread and most didn't like it because they either felt picked on because I was quite blunt in pointing out race/subjob penalties for primarily Elvaan mages (come now, there are no benefits regardless of how much they scream about it) or they felt I was just too mean in my post. Some posted regarding the whole BS TP gain issue: again, they need to get their facts straight. Others just didn't like the tone of my post. This is their view ... I just have a very blunt and to-the-point writing style and I don't get mealy-mouthed about what I post. If that ****** them off they have every right to be ****** ... but counter the facts with facts, don't bash the post as garbage because you feel picked on or something. There has not been one VALID argument against this playstyle anywhere in this entire thread. Read it through. Some point out AOEs: that is just something you have to learn to deal with and to avoid the bad ones. Some point out incapability of doing their job and melee as well: learn to do it properly. Some just point out that they don't feel it's worth it to do their full job for various reasons: hey, go nuts. Just makes me more desirable in the end. I provided this information to give fellow mages ideas and pointers that they could incorporate into their playstyles to make them more effective. There is nothing in that goal that is dishonest or reprehensible regardless of what fantasies you may have.

Your wild conspiracy theories and belief that everyone is with you is groundless. I know many 60+ RDMs on my server alone that have benefited heavily from this guide and now find themselves more desired than ever. If it doesn't work for you then do whatever it is you want to do. I really could care less. Trolling this thread repeatedly will do nothing more than make you look like an idiot. Note that you haven't suggested one piece of information anywhere in any of your posts. All you have done is spit venom and make an *** out of yourself. Are we really supposed to take you seriously?

edit: you must have got lucky. If he would have dumped on Shell IV you would have lost miserably. I simply provided a simple way for people to win that fight with no muss or fuss regardless of their skill level. What about that offends you ... or do you just like trolling?

Edited, Sat Jun 5 11:03:24 2004 by airspirit
#289 Jun 05 2004 at 6:53 PM Rating: Decent
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Quote:
TBH, I didn't read through anything about it until after I posted, but I do remember him saying stuff about changing equip to make sure debuffs stick, so I assumed there was more...


then why say something is useless before you even read it?, did you even read through the whole guide? i'll be honest too, i strongly disagree with melee rdm playstyles, i personally don't melee in groups. I don't see the point. Others do and if they can keep up on their rdm duties + don't sub melee jobs i don't give a rats *** if they melee.

The fact sitll remains that alot of information, when you read past the bias towards melee rdm, is very sound. And very useful to my eyes, even though it's mostly nothing i hadn't already figured out for myself i'm sure low level rdm's will find the information very useful.

And as for his fishing info, he got flamed to kingdom come when he posted his how to get rich fast info on the tradeskill forums.. because people were greedy and didnt want him sharing that info with the masses. do you blame him for not wanting to share secrets now? And just fyi, rusty caps are still very good cash, if you know what to do with them..i pull up at the very least 10-12 rusty caps an hour.. ever sit in rabao for a few hours and see people crafting? HMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMM. Airspirit also told me of another place that is better cash.. i'll have to get him to show me it sometime... right bud? ^^

Quote:
have a natural dislike for someone who claims to have discovered a secret, brags about it, then refuses to release any good info on it, and then later gets proven to be lying, and then nuking everyone who said he was a liar in the thread. Then, I see him making a guide that I disagree strongly with. It makes for me being rather displeased.

Most of the people who have said it is a good guide have been lower level, with some expceptions. Most of the higher level people in this thread responding have been against it, which I think is pretty good proof that it isn't worth its salt.


i've seen about.. 5 or 6 people, including you that have disagreed with this post to the point of flaming airspirit. I'm also taking a wild hunch here, but i bet they are some of the smae people who read his fishing guide originally and have a sour taste from it and look at this guide with a bias. If you actually took the time and read through it all there is alot of good info in it, and as i said before if you're already high level it's probably all moot points to you. But to a new person maybe only level 15-20 rdm more or less, the info is very useful.

anyways, i just logged off for a bit to check some smithing recipes.. felt i should post my opinion.. back to smithing!
____________________________
FFXI : Valor LS
75 blm / 68brd / 38whm / 30rng / 75 mnk / 37war / 53 thf / 37nin / 12rdm rank 7
WOW
85 rogue 85 hunter 85 shaman 85 priest 85 mage
#290 Jun 05 2004 at 8:55 PM Rating: Default
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3,571 posts
Yes, I had read the rest of the post.

Please - Don't insult my intelligence saying that there was a "Sweet spot" for fishing up the caps. It's not in the game coding for there to be one - And yes, I have looked through the source code. There are plenty of good decompilers out there. Their is code for making you catch more rusty items, yes, but nothing that could lead to special spots doing better.It's all bull, which was the main contending point of the fishing thread.


The human mind works in such a way as to make us believe what we want to. We automatically want to assume the way we do it is the right way. It's been proven wrong on the fishing, as that could be finished with facts, but this can't, because it's all opionary.


And yes, I know about the padded cap recipe with the caps.

Edited, Sat Jun 5 21:59:38 2004 by Chtulhu
____________________________

So I wander on, asking where you might have gone
From what I knew before, some things are worth fighting for
Night road leads me to a town because
I'm beckoned by the glow of kerosine and tumbleweed
They're calling out, forevermore worth fighting for
#291 Jun 05 2004 at 9:37 PM Rating: Decent
26 posts
Big thanks to airspirit for giving me higher hopes in RDM, i was afraid that all RDMs had to become refresh slaves, and i really didnt like that idea, now i know what im going for.

Thanks.
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#292 Jun 06 2004 at 3:14 AM Rating: Good
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445 posts
Quote:
It's not in the game coding for there to be one - And yes, I have looked through the source code. There are plenty of good decompilers out there. Their is code for making you catch more rusty items, yes, but nothing that could lead to special spots doing better.

I've got to cry foul on this claim. You expect us to believe that the fishing results algorithms are performed on the client (player) computer, rather than on the server? No. There are about 3 dozen reasons why no sane programmer would do it that way.

I'm not saying it's impossible of course - moronic and about 20 times as difficult, but not impossible. But it's far more parsimonious to believe that an argumentative fellow on a messageboard is bluffing than that it was programmed so poorly and that the fellow could reverse-engineer the code thoroughly enough to say authoritatively how the fishing system works.
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Lokimor - Red Mage - Ifrit
#293 Jun 06 2004 at 6:50 AM Rating: Decent
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Ctulhu the Quick:

Disassembling the executable is an enormous task that would take at least 3-6 months of eight hours a day. Not getting codes out, but actually figuring out what is what. For all I know, someone can have done that and posted it on the net somewhere for you too look at. Or there may be some objectfiles out there - a huge security breach.

Even so, looking at our windows executable gives no hints on these things because it's not our executables that determines these things - that is definitely done by the server. If our executables could do that, we could also create a cheat to land us a Bastore Bream each and every time we cast our line. SE would be so incredibly stupid if they allowed for something like that, and SE are among the most experienced and advanced gamedevelopers out there.

FYI I have worked in gamedevelopment for more than 10 years, and have observed colleagues who had to disassemble whole game executables in order to port a game to another platform.

I would like to add that I am somewhat skeptical towards the existance of sweet spots in fishing (I am 45 in fishing), but the fact that you can get a fishing guild map of exceptional fishing spots could actually point in that direction.
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Nataniella
Female Hume - 40 rdm / 25 whm / 16 thf
Cerberus server
#294 Jun 06 2004 at 8:08 PM Rating: Decent
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82 posts
My favorite thing in the whole wide world is when people lie when they have no clue what the subject deals with. I can also vouch that you did not decompile the game.
#295 Jun 06 2004 at 8:08 PM Rating: Decent
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Quick question about getting Hornetneedle...

This is probably a long shot, but can I solo Death from Above as a 56 RDM? Or do I need a party/high level to help me?

BTW, getting that **** Bee Larvae to drop takes forever...3 hours for my party.
#296 Jun 07 2004 at 4:21 AM Rating: Default
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3,571 posts
Crap, typed this out once and accidently hit forward, lost it. Hate it when that happens.

Anyway:


I never stated that the code was on the client side. But, any 2nd year programming student can tell that if it's not on the client side, and it must be performed, there will be calls to the server inside the code, it's common sense. Finding the fishing sections isn't easy, as decompilers care very little for syntax, but knowing the functions that could be used as the means makes finding it easier.

Yes, putting things on the server make alot of sense. But, you can't put everything server side, or you end up with too much information being requested/sent, when the operations could be performed client side and the results sent to the server. There has to be things done on the client as well.

There is bits of anti-bot fishing code in there, at least that's what it is - And as we know it exists, and this code makes no sense as anything else.

There are sets of code that could be used for a sweet-spot of normal fish - But there's nothing that corresponds to the anti-fishing code in that manner.

What airspirit is claimed would have to be programmed into the game on purpose - Tell me, why would SE program a spot to catch more rusty items corresponding with anti-bot code? It makes no sense.


For those skeptics, the ones who say they have experience with this sort of thing - Bring in counterproof. Me spouting line numbers will be worthless unless someone is around to verify them.


Bayler, I don't blame you for not believing me, I wouldn't in your place, however, if you've read some of my other posts, you might have read my profession. Makes it slightly more believable, but probably still not enough.


Nataniella, you couldn't port a game from a decompiled and disassembled file. The syntax is mangled, their are chunks of code that have died in the process, it just can't be done. It is unreadable as a whole, and raped in specifics. I never claimed to have gone through the whole thing - That's too monstrous of a task for any one man to hope to accomplish in a reasonable amount of time. So unless there is some extremely sophisticated decompiler out there that I don't have, I think you're confused. Someone porting a game and someone ripping .dll files open looking for things is a very different process, so unalike that I don't know how it came into this discussion.


Qwerty, shut up. The others at least made reasoned attempts at why I would be lying, you just spouted crap. If I don't know what I'm talking about, please state what it is. Otherwise, go away.
____________________________

So I wander on, asking where you might have gone
From what I knew before, some things are worth fighting for
Night road leads me to a town because
I'm beckoned by the glow of kerosine and tumbleweed
They're calling out, forevermore worth fighting for
#297 Jun 07 2004 at 10:07 AM Rating: Good
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Hi. I was going to tear you a new one, but Bayler Sage beat me to it.

For those skeptics, the ones who say they have experience with this sort of thing - Bring in counterproof.

Don't think so. With such an outrageous claim as you made, I'd say the burden of proof is on your shoulders. Otherwise, you will be (rightly) ignored.
____________________________
I don't like you.
#298 Jun 07 2004 at 10:14 AM Rating: Decent
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892 posts
Quote:
Qwerty, shut up. The others at least made reasoned attempts at why I would be lying.


I'll be sure to take your point more strongly into consideration since you defend your position so eloquently.

Quote:
For those skeptics, the ones who say they have experience with this sort of thing - Bring in counterproof. Me spouting line numbers will be worthless unless someone is around to verify them


You make outlandish claims to understand the inner-workings of an extremely complex client-server relationship, and then lay the burden of proof on others.

If the client had any effect on synth/fishing/lotting results, someone would reverse-engineer it, and for lack of more scientific terms, exploit the **** out of it. For that reason, these calculations must be determined solely by the server, and there is no need for any transmition about it's calculation to be transmitted to the client... making both decompiling the client and analyzing network traffic 100% irrelevant to the situation at hand.

You can disagree w/ airspirit all you want, and that's fine. You can dislike airspirit all you want, and that's fine, too. You can even dislike me for this post, and you're more than entitled to.

But don't come into these forums, make claims w/o proof, and then tell people that express doubt in your claim to shut up.

Edited, Mon Jun 7 11:15:31 2004 by kerryak
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Ashke of Windurst - Taru of Many Hats
BLM75/RDM75/PLD75

Remedy LS; Asura Server
#299 Jun 07 2004 at 11:03 AM Rating: Good
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445 posts
Quote:
Yes, putting things on the server make alot of sense. But, you can't put everything server side, or you end up with too much information being requested/sent, when the operations could be performed client side and the results sent to the server. There has to be things done on the client as well.

Agreed - some tasks have to be performed on the client. Typically that involves UI and movement in the game-world, to allow for adequate responsiveness. Progammers have to make choices about which code to put where. But if you look at the behavior of the system as a player, it's clear that the programmers went with a server-heavy architecture. Case in point: You can't sit down to heal without a server request-response.

In the case of fishing, we're talking about *creating items* and *spawning mobs*. Absolutely no persistant-world game developer would put that task in the hands of the client computer. It's way too vulnerable to duplication hacks. Even if you assume that nobody is trying to hack your client code, simple networking issues make it way too difficult to do reliably. We're talking about two tasks that are fundemental to the integrity of the whole game here. They absolutely WOULD NOT be done client-side.

Beyond that, if you assume that fishing-results are calculated client-side, even if you assume it's unhackable and the protocol is iron-clad, then there must be data files somewhere on every client machine dictating what results to give under what conditions. If that's the case, it should be easy to come up with an application to scan that info, as an aid in fishing decisions.

Quote:
What airspirit is claimed would have to be programmed into the game on purpose - Tell me, why would SE program a spot to catch more rusty items corresponding with anti-bot code? It makes no sense.

I don't know or care about fishing, so I don't know for sure how the system works. However, it is completely plausible that different parts of a zone have different "fishing tables" - sets of data dictating where, when, how much, or locational whatever parameters go into fishing. For instance, I believe some zones have both a lake and a sea-shore, and would thus need different tables for fresh or salt water? (Quifim, for instance.)

If you accept the fact that a given zone can have more than one fishing table, then it's easy to imagine that a data-entry error and/or a fluke of space-partitioning might create some exploitable behavior.

Quote:
For those skeptics, the ones who say they have experience with this sort of thing - Bring in counterproof. Me spouting line numbers will be worthless unless someone is around to verify them.

You're the one claiming the non-existance of something inside a black box. Unless S-E goes open-source with their multi-million dollar revenue source, that's not a reasonable request.

Perhaps instead, you could outline what you think the exact fishing client-server protocol is?

Quote:
if you've read some of my other posts, you might have read my profession. Makes it slightly more believable, but probably still not enough.

I don't recall seeing your profession in any other posts. But it really wouldn't matter - neither your credentials nor mine are particularly trustworthy in this type of forum.
____________________________
Lokimor - Red Mage - Ifrit
#300 Jun 07 2004 at 11:46 AM Rating: Default
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3,571 posts
You missed my point. I'm saying that there are calls to the server requesting information. There has to be. There also has to be the code that does the fishing bit for the client requesting the result. There has to be code dealing with the anti-bot code, otherwise they wouldn't have to release a client side patch including it - Which they did.

I can't prove anything to you guys without somone else having the code decompiled and in front of them - I can then cite line numbers.


Also, I'm glad some of you are taking the time to create sock puppets to post the same things over and over. Thus, Salinsha, I'm going to tell you to shush.

Kerryak, that was my response to someone with 35 posts telling me I'm an idiot. Would you take that person seriously? I posted plenty of information before that in the post, so don't act as if my whole arguement was telling people to shut up.


Anyway, this is all off topic. Bayler, if you would like to contact me outside of these forums to talk about it, feel free to leave a message saying so. I'll give you a way to contact me.


That goes for anyone wanting to discuss it as well, this thread is about RDMs, not fishing. I'll be willing to give you my phone number, email, or some other form of contact.
____________________________

So I wander on, asking where you might have gone
From what I knew before, some things are worth fighting for
Night road leads me to a town because
I'm beckoned by the glow of kerosine and tumbleweed
They're calling out, forevermore worth fighting for
#301 Jun 07 2004 at 12:08 PM Rating: Decent
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Galka, a "terrible race" for mage? There are no terrible races. Only people who can't afford astrals/good equipment. :D



Please...there is some truth to that, but in the context of this thread, not really. ;)


I love galka and it is my favorite race. When I started RDM and decided it was for me, (this was back in December), I restarted as hume after deleting my galka. I am glad I did it.

Unless you get a character up to level 70 or so and start to HNM fight or craft/farm more than should be allowable by law, a galka will be a terrible race for RDM as a first character. I have lots of MP stat boosting equipment for RDM and still have close calls on mp amounts sometimes. Once you get to level 50 as a galka it is almost necessary to replace one of those astrals with a serket...are most first time through the game people playing RDM galka gonna have 2 or 3 million to buy one? Yeah, right.


It is good advice to tell a new person to not start out as a galka RDM. However an EXPERIENCED player can make a galka rdm work well. Galka is a terrible race to start out the game with. This guide is quite obviously to help new people whom are just starting out in the game...that is implicit. Galaka = terrible race (for starting RDM players) = good advice.



Edited, Mon Jun 7 13:08:04 2004 by fill
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