Sage

212 posts

Hello, what is the current maximum dual wield cap for DNC?

Thankyou

Thankyou

Scholar

9,209 posts

Technical cap is 50% Dual Wield.

It's possible for DNC to reach such cap.

It's possible for DNC to reach such cap.

Princess ThePsychoticOne wrote:

int stands for int.

Sage

983 posts

I'm pretty sure that the technical cap is 80% and not 50% (aka, it's uncapped). Maximum Dual Wield you can get with DNC is 58%.

Yay for Jhereg! Scholar

9,209 posts

They raised it then? When was it?

Princess ThePsychoticOne wrote:

int stands for int.

Sage

983 posts

I'm not sure it was ever capped to 50% (and I don't know where this number came from), but I'm like 99% sure that someone came to the random question thread, asked about a 50% cap, got told how to test it, and then tested it to exceed 50%.

Yay for Jhereg! Sage

3,638 posts

What about the overal delay cap? DNC has to be getting pretty close to that, especially a DNC/WHM with full haste gear, merited haste samba, and the haste spell. Gear at 25, spell is 15, haste samba for 10, dual wield over 50... that's 100 right there oO. What's the cap again? Isn't it in the 80s?

*Edited, Jul 21st 2011 12:06pm by Erecia *

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Sage

983 posts

It's 80%.

50% Haste and 50% Dual Wield put you at 25% delay, so you aren't at the cap yet. If you're willing to totally sacrifice everything, you can hit about 60% Dual Wield in Abyssea using the right Atma and be at the delay cap solo. You'd be better off using real Atma and a real sub though.

Yay for Jhereg! 50% Haste and 50% Dual Wield put you at 25% delay, so you aren't at the cap yet. If you're willing to totally sacrifice everything, you can hit about 60% Dual Wield in Abyssea using the right Atma and be at the delay cap solo. You'd be better off using real Atma and a real sub though.

629 posts

Because of the levels of delay reduction that DNC gets, I'm failing to find an offhand dagger that is better than auric. Obviously when you need the utility of others such as AGI kila +2 or w/e, that's a different story. But for raw damage output, auric's 5% dual wield just makes it better.

Sage

983 posts

It depends what your mainhand is. You can value Auric Dagger like this:

Twashtar (176)/Auric (201) = 377 combined delay before Dual Wield.

377*.05 = 18.85

201-18.85 = 182.15

So Auric, viewed purely as a damage source, is a D39, 182 delay dagger. Are there better options than that? Sure. How about a D40, 186 delay dagger with 15 STP. Comparing something with similar (and superior) stats makes it easy to tell which is better, and then you can ask, "Is a STR Kila +2 better than an STP Fusetto +2?" If the answer is yes, than STR Kila +2 is necessarily better than Auric.

Kila +2 (190)/Auric (201) = 391 combined delay before dual wield

391*.05 = 19.55

201-19.55 = 181.45

Repeat the above comparison. Did the <1 extra delay make a difference?

Yay for Jhereg! Twashtar (176)/Auric (201) = 377 combined delay before Dual Wield.

377*.05 = 18.85

201-18.85 = 182.15

So Auric, viewed purely as a damage source, is a D39, 182 delay dagger. Are there better options than that? Sure. How about a D40, 186 delay dagger with 15 STP. Comparing something with similar (and superior) stats makes it easy to tell which is better, and then you can ask, "Is a STR Kila +2 better than an STP Fusetto +2?" If the answer is yes, than STR Kila +2 is necessarily better than Auric.

Kila +2 (190)/Auric (201) = 391 combined delay before dual wield

391*.05 = 19.55

201-19.55 = 181.45

Repeat the above comparison. Did the <1 extra delay make a difference?

Sage

1,252 posts

lol I've rewritten this post like 3 times because I kept finding errors in my math... Anyway, auric @201 vs another 190 delay dagger has always been my gripe against auric. Come to find out that two 190 daggers won't be faster than auric + one 190 dagger until you get to 79% of the 80% total delay reduction cap.

So in terms of speed, auric is more impressive than I originally thought, but still not as fast as most believe it to be (using the above comparison, it only has an 11 delay advantage over two 190s with capped DW and 26% haste gear...the more magical haste or delay reduction you add, the gap gets smaller). As Byrth said, once you start comparing daggers with either higher DMG and/or lower delay, then auric is left behind that much more.

*Edited, Jul 22nd 2011 6:20pm by Kalisa *

DNC: 90 THF: 90 RNG: Semi retired @90 RDM: Retired@75 So in terms of speed, auric is more impressive than I originally thought, but still not as fast as most believe it to be (using the above comparison, it only has an 11 delay advantage over two 190s with capped DW and 26% haste gear...the more magical haste or delay reduction you add, the gap gets smaller). As Byrth said, once you start comparing daggers with either higher DMG and/or lower delay, then auric is left behind that much more.

Sage

212 posts

Thanks for the replies.

My understanding is that DNC gets Dual Wield IV at level 80 for a bonus of -30 delay.

And also (not counting nuskus sash as i dont have it, add it if you have it)

Suppa = 5%

Charis necklace = 3%

Auric dagger = 5%

+2 body = 10%

So assuming all that was worn/equipped by a level 80+ DNC then we would be at...

30 + 10 + 5 + 5 + 3 = 53% delay reduction?

What i wasnt sure of if thats above the cap, or below the cap, or even if there is a cap for dual wield... to make sure i wasnt wearing something that didnt actually contribute to delay reduction, if you know what i mean?

Any ideas?

And also, would any of this make any of you change what you wore/equipped? i am very undecided what is better (as i am sure others are) as i dont understand dual wield enough... and when it no longer 'adds' when you put something on.

My understanding is that DNC gets Dual Wield IV at level 80 for a bonus of -30 delay.

And also (not counting nuskus sash as i dont have it, add it if you have it)

Suppa = 5%

Charis necklace = 3%

Auric dagger = 5%

+2 body = 10%

So assuming all that was worn/equipped by a level 80+ DNC then we would be at...

30 + 10 + 5 + 5 + 3 = 53% delay reduction?

What i wasnt sure of if thats above the cap, or below the cap, or even if there is a cap for dual wield... to make sure i wasnt wearing something that didnt actually contribute to delay reduction, if you know what i mean?

Any ideas?

And also, would any of this make any of you change what you wore/equipped? i am very undecided what is better (as i am sure others are) as i dont understand dual wield enough... and when it no longer 'adds' when you put something on.

Guru

513 posts

It is best to think of it in this way: the hard cap on delay reduction from the cumulative effects of *all* sources, i.e. Dual Wield, magical haste, job ability haste, and gear haste, is 80%. So, for example, if a DNC was using two 190 delay daggers (380 delay base), at 80%, the swings would function as if the delay was 76. You will not get any lower than that.

Because DNCs have such a high tier of Dual Wield, our gear should change depending on what buffs we have, i.e. Haste, Marches, etc. This is because Dual Wield still reduces our TP per hit regardless of whether we're hitting the 80% cap. So, to put it in extreme terms, using all of those equipment pieces you listed, plus Haste Samba/Haste/double Marches, we're effectively*way* over the cap, but we're gaining less TP because the Dual Wield is still affecting our TP gain, and we're not actually swinging any faster because of it.

So, if you only have your own buffs, maybe a Haste (spell), the ideal set should be something like:

If you are getting Marches, you don't need nearly as much Dual Wield (because you're capping delay and keeping excess Dual Wield will reduce your TP per hit), so you'd use something like this:

Thus, you're at 80% delay cap, but your output is improved by weaning away the Dual Wield you don't need. (I'm very much labouring the point here, lol)

Hope that helps clarify it somewhat!

*Edited, Jul 25th 2011 10:45am by Secretkeeper *

Because DNCs have such a high tier of Dual Wield, our gear should change depending on what buffs we have, i.e. Haste, Marches, etc. This is because Dual Wield still reduces our TP per hit regardless of whether we're hitting the 80% cap. So, to put it in extreme terms, using all of those equipment pieces you listed, plus Haste Samba/Haste/double Marches, we're effectively

So, if you only have your own buffs, maybe a Haste (spell), the ideal set should be something like:

Charis+2/Charis Neck/Suppa/Brutal Charis+2/Dusk Gloves+1/Rajas/Epona's Atheling Mantle/Twilight Belt/Charis+2/Charis+2

If you are getting Marches, you don't need nearly as much Dual Wield (because you're capping delay and keeping excess Dual Wield will reduce your TP per hit), so you'd use something like this:

Charis+2/Rancor Collar or Agasaya's Collar/Aesir Ear Pendant/Brutal Loki's Kaftan/Dusk Gloves+1/Rajas/Epona's Atheling Mantle/Twilight Belt/Charis+2/Charis+2

Thus, you're at 80% delay cap, but your output is improved by weaning away the Dual Wield you don't need. (I'm very much labouring the point here, lol)

Hope that helps clarify it somewhat!

RDM BLM DNC DRK WHM

Like attracts like.

Like attracts like.

Sage

212 posts

Great post thankyou, labouring the point is fine, it helps explain things easier.

What about weapons? does this mean its more beneficial to use the Auric dagger if you dont have outside buffs or self haste?

Or does the +2 STR magian dagger out shine the Auric dagger at all times, including if it meant that you would be below the dual wield cap by not using Auric dagger, basically if you are at 65% dual wield what would be better, the +5% dual wield of the Auric dagger or the STR +2 magian dagger/other dagger?

What about weapons? does this mean its more beneficial to use the Auric dagger if you dont have outside buffs or self haste?

Or does the +2 STR magian dagger out shine the Auric dagger at all times, including if it meant that you would be below the dual wield cap by not using Auric dagger, basically if you are at 65% dual wield what would be better, the +5% dual wield of the Auric dagger or the STR +2 magian dagger/other dagger?

Guru

513 posts

Auric dagger lost a lot of its lustre at the level cap increase; it's fairly outdated. As enticing as the Dual Wield seems to be, it doesn't really have enough benefit to use (for damage purposes) wherever you may be on delay reduction front. As described a few posts above, when you compare it to something like the STR magian dagger -- which is very easily one of the best daggers we have available -- it doesn't quite measure up.

*Edited, Jul 25th 2011 11:41am by Secretkeeper *

RDM BLM DNC DRK WHM

Like attracts like.

Like attracts like.

Scholar

9,209 posts

Uhhh... wait

So DW actually counts toward the 80% haste?

So DW+45 (JT and gear) and 64% haste from gear/magic/haste samba will give you capped attack delay?

*Edited, Jul 25th 2011 4:59pm by VZX *

So DW actually counts toward the 80% haste?

So DW+45 (JT and gear) and 64% haste from gear/magic/haste samba will give you capped attack delay?

Princess ThePsychoticOne wrote:

int stands for int.

Sage

983 posts

Yeah, it's an 80% Delay cap, not Haste cap. That's why when we get double marches it's smart to not use any DW in gear.

Yay for Jhereg! Sage

1,252 posts

(1-(1-dual wield%)*(1-haste%)) is the formula you can use to determine how close you are to the 80% reduction cap. Note that this will determine what you are at BEFORE any haste spells/marches/ja reduction, so just add those in after calculation.

DNC: 90 THF: 90 RNG: Semi retired @90 RDM: Retired@75 Sage

983 posts

If you subtract all your forms of Haste in the (1-Haste%) step, then you can account for all those sources of Haste. For a Dancer with the three DW Pieces, Haste Samba, and 25% Haste in gear:

(1 - (1-.48)*(1-.25-.1)) = 66.2% Delay reduction

Toss in Haste Spell:

(1 - (1-.48)*(1-.25-.1-.15)) = 74% Delay reduction

Toss in a Victory March with March+3 from Instrument and AF3+2 hands:

(1 - (1-.48)*(1-.25-.1-.15-.14)) = 81% delay reduction (capped to 80%, can we remove DW gear?)

Remove some DW gear:

(1 - (1-.45)*(1-650/1024)) = 79.91% delay reduction = Good enough for me

So yeah, if your Bard is good you don't even need to wear AF3 neck to cap delay reduction.

Edit: Just realized that I switched the Haste into /1024 at the end, so I'll mention it here. Haste is actually a value/1024 system. Some commonly used ones are:

Haste Samba: 50/1024 initially, +10/1024 per merit level.

Haste spell: 150/1024

Advancing March: 64/1024

Victory March: 96/1024

Each March +1: 16/1024 (~1.5% Haste)

Gear Haste cap: 256/1024

I tried to go into a better discussion of it here.

*Edited, Jul 25th 2011 4:24pm by Byrthnoth *

Yay for Jhereg! (1 - (1-.48)*(1-.25-.1)) = 66.2% Delay reduction

Toss in Haste Spell:

(1 - (1-.48)*(1-.25-.1-.15)) = 74% Delay reduction

Toss in a Victory March with March+3 from Instrument and AF3+2 hands:

(1 - (1-.48)*(1-.25-.1-.15-.14)) = 81% delay reduction (capped to 80%, can we remove DW gear?)

Remove some DW gear:

(1 - (1-.45)*(1-650/1024)) = 79.91% delay reduction = Good enough for me

So yeah, if your Bard is good you don't even need to wear AF3 neck to cap delay reduction.

Edit: Just realized that I switched the Haste into /1024 at the end, so I'll mention it here. Haste is actually a value/1024 system. Some commonly used ones are:

Haste Samba: 50/1024 initially, +10/1024 per merit level.

Haste spell: 150/1024

Advancing March: 64/1024

Victory March: 96/1024

Each March +1: 16/1024 (~1.5% Haste)

Gear Haste cap: 256/1024

I tried to go into a better discussion of it here.

Scholar

7,500 posts

Byrthnoth wrote:

It depends what your mainhand is. You can value Auric Dagger like this:

Twashtar (176)/Auric (201) = 377 combined delay before Dual Wield.

377*.05 = 18.85

201-18.85 = 182.15

So Auric, viewed purely as a damage source, is a D39, 182 delay dagger. Are there better options than that? Sure. How about a D40, 186 delay dagger with 15 STP. Comparing something with similar (and superior) stats makes it easy to tell which is better, and then you can ask, "Is a STR Kila +2 better than an STP Fusetto +2?" If the answer is yes, than STR Kila +2 is necessarily better than Auric.

Kila +2 (190)/Auric (201) = 391 combined delay before dual wield

391*.05 = 19.55

201-19.55 = 181.45

Repeat the above comparison. Did the <1 extra delay make a difference?

Twashtar (176)/Auric (201) = 377 combined delay before Dual Wield.

377*.05 = 18.85

201-18.85 = 182.15

So Auric, viewed purely as a damage source, is a D39, 182 delay dagger. Are there better options than that? Sure. How about a D40, 186 delay dagger with 15 STP. Comparing something with similar (and superior) stats makes it easy to tell which is better, and then you can ask, "Is a STR Kila +2 better than an STP Fusetto +2?" If the answer is yes, than STR Kila +2 is necessarily better than Auric.

Kila +2 (190)/Auric (201) = 391 combined delay before dual wield

391*.05 = 19.55

201-19.55 = 181.45

Repeat the above comparison. Did the <1 extra delay make a difference?

I dunno 5% (more technically given how your % change i larger the more delay reduction you get) is a pretty good source of increased damage. 5% is a pretty solid number. To get that from attack you are looking at needing 25 ATK (based on 500 ATK start or 50 STR). I am by no means disputing your check other weapons options (lord knows that comparisons are always required when making a dedicated choice to maximizing something.)

But then again with the amount of delay reduction available, the specific role of the DNC, and the amount of multi attack available, delay reduction dagger does seem to be on the weaker end, due to TP gain and WS frequency largely.

If I cared id make a chart comparing the "top" weapons, but im still running around with a 41D 3% CATK+ Yatagahn >.>

Sage

983 posts

Look at the comparison I did again. Incorporate Auric's Dual Wield into the delay of the dagger and then ask yourself if it's worth using.

Yay for Jhereg! Scholar

7,500 posts

guess I should have read the full thread then >.> ignore my above post it was covered already.

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