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# Dancer Dagger MaffsFollow

Jun 18 2011 at 4:03 AM Rating: Good
37 posts
So there is a wide collection of daggers dancer can use, and there's also a lot of speculation over what to use and when.

So I'm going to go ahead and take it on to myself to math all this out.

So to start, here's the gearset I'll use for comparison: link

Haste: (256/1024) 25%
Dual Wield: (30% Trait + 3% neck + 5% Suppa + 10% body) = 48% DW
Double Attack: (3% Ring + 5% Brutal + 2% Belt + 3% Back) = 13% DA
Haste Samba: 10% Haste
Store TP: 21

Equation I'll use for DPS is DMG * Swings/min

Daggers

Phurba:
DMG: 44 Delay: 190

Twilight Knife:
DMG: 40 Delay: 190 "Quadruple Attack" +3%

Auric Dagger:
DMG: 39 Delay: 201 Dual Wield +5%

Parazonium +2
DMG: 22 Delay: 211 Occasionally Attacks 2-4 times (Averages 2.07 per round) source

Parazonium +2
DMG: 45 Delay: 211 Double Attack+10(%)

I will use 3 values for Double attack based on Saber Dance, these are 13% from gear, then 30%/50% Double attack+ from Saber dance Max/Min based on average merits. Thus to calculate true double attack rate I will use:

SD%(0~30~50) + (100-SD%)*GearDA

Normal:
0%: 13% Double Attack
30%: 30+(1-0.3)*13 = 39.1% Double Attack
50%: 50+(1+0.5)*13 = 56.5% Double Attack

Magian Double Attack+ Parazonium:
0%: 23% Double Attack
30% 30+(1-0.3)*23 = 46.1% Double Attack
50% 50+(1-0.5)*23 = 61.5% Double Attack

Lets start.

Dagger1+Dagger2
Dual Wield: -48/53%
Haste: -35%
Combined DMG: Dmg1+Dmg2
Combined Delay: Delay1+Delay2
Dual Wield Delay: -(cDelay*DW) = (cDelay-dwDelay)
Individual Delay: dwDelay/2 = iDelay
TP/Swing = 5.0 + [(iDelay - 180) * 1.5 / 180] = TP/S
Hasted Delay: -(0.35*iDelay) = (iDelay -hastedelay)
Swings/min = 3600/hDelay = S/M
Double Attack1+ = 0.13*S/M = +DA1
Double Attack2+ = 0.391*S/M = +DA2
Double Attack3+ = 0.565*S/M = +DA3
Total Swings/min = 60.3+QA+(DA1~DA2~DA3) = 67.5+(DA1~DA2~DA3)
= TS/M1~TS/M2~TS/M3
TPM = TP/S(TS/M1~TS/M2~TS/M3) = TPM1~TPM2~TPM3
DPS = cDMG(TS/M1~TS/M2~TS/M3) = DPS1~DPS2~DPS3

==================================================

Auric+Twilight
Dual Wield: -53%
Haste: -35%
Combined DMG: 79
Combined Delay: 391
Dual Wield Delay: -207.23 = 183.7
Individual Delay: 183.77/2 = 91.8
TP/Swing = 5.0 + [(91.8 - 180) * 1.5 / 180] = 4.2
Hasted Delay: -32.1 = 59.7
Swings/min = 3600/59.7 = 60.3
Double Attack1+ = 0.13*60.3 = +7.8
Double Attack2+ = 0.391*60.3 = +23.6
Double Attack3+ = 0.565*60.3 = +34.1
Quadruple Attack+ = (0.03*4)*60.3 = +7.2
Total Swings/min = 60.3+7.2+(7.8~23.6~34.1) = 67.5+(7.8~23.6~34.1)
= 75.3~91.1~101.6
TPM = 4.2(75.3~91.1~101.6) = 316.26~382.62~426.72
DPS = 79(75.3~91.1~101.6) = 5948.7~7196.9~8026.4

============================================
Phurba+Auric
Dual Wield: -53%
Haste: -35%
Combined DMG: 83
Combined Delay: 391
Dual Wield Delay: -207.23 = 183.7
Individual Delay: 183.77/2 = 91.8
TP/Swing = 5.0 + [(91.8 - 180) * 1.5 / 180] = 4.2
Hasted Delay: -32.1 = 59.7
Swings/min = 3600/59.7 = 60.3
Double Attack1+ = 0.13*60.3 = +7.8
Double Attack2+ = 0.391*60.3 = +23.6
Double Attack3+ = 0.565*60.3 = +34.1
Total Swings/min = 60.3+(7.8~23.6~34.1) = 68.1~83.9~94.4
TPM = 4.2(68.1~83.9~94.4) = 286.02~352.38~396.48
DPS = 83(68.1~83.9~94.4) = 5652.3~6963.7~7835.2

============================================

Auric+OA2-4 Parazonium+2
Dual Wield: -53%
Haste: -35%
Combined Delay: 412
Dual Wield Delay: -218.3 = 193.7
Individual Delay: 193.7/2 = 96.9
TP/Swing = 5.0 + [(96.9 - 180) * 1.5 / 180] = 4.3
Hasted Delay: -33.9 = 63.0
Swings/min = (3600/63.0)/2 = 28.6 Each Hand
Double Attack1+ = 0.13*28.6 = +3.7
Double Attack2+ = 0.391*28.6 = +11.2
Double Attack3+ = 0.565*28.6 = +16.2

MAINHAND(Auric)
Total Swings: 28.6+(3.7~11.2~16.2) = 32.3~39.8~44.8
DPS: 39(32.3~39.8~44. = 1259.7~1552.2~1747.2
TP/M: 4.3(32.3~39.8~44. = 138.5~171.1~192.6

OFFHAND(Parazonium) (OA2-4 doesnt proc on swing that procced DA)
Proccable swings:
Double Attack1: -3.7 = 24.9
Double Attack2: -11.2 = 17.4
Double Attack3: -16.2 = 12.4

Average hits = Successful proc hits *2.07 + double attack procs*2
Double Attack1: 24.9*2.07 + 3.7*2 = 51.5+7.4 = 58.9
Double Attack2: 17.4*2.07 + 11.2*2 = 36.0+22.4 = 58.4
Double Attack3: 12.4*2.07 + 16.2*2 = 25.7+32.4 = 58.1

DPS: 22(58.9~58.4~58.1) = 1295.8~1284.8~1278.2
TP/M: 4.3(58.9~58.4~58.1) = 253.3~251.1~249.8

Totals:
DPS: (1259.7+1295.~(1552.2+1284.~(1747.2+1278.2) =
2554.8~2837~3025.4
TP/M: (138.5+253.3)~(171.1+251.1)~(192.6+249. =
391.8~422.2~442.4

============================================

Auric+DA Parazonium+2
Dual Wield: -53%
Haste: -35%
Combined DMG: 84
Combined Delay: 412
Dual Wield Delay: -218.3 = 193.7
Individual Delay: 193.7/2 = 96.9
TP/Swing = 5.0 + [(96.9 - 180) * 1.5 / 180] = 4.3
Hasted Delay: -33.9 = 63.0
Swings/min = (3600/63.0) = 57.1
Double Attack1+ = 57.1*0.23 = 13.1
Double Attack2+ = 57.1*0.461 = 26.3
Double Attack3+ = 57.1*0.615 = 35.1

Total Swings/min = 57.1+(13.1~26.3~35.1) = 70.2~83.4~92.2
TPM = 4.3(70.2~83.4~92.2) = 301.86~358.62~396.46
DPS = 84(70.2~83.4~92.2) = 5896.8~7005.6~7744.8

============================================

Phurba+Twilight
Dual Wield: -48%
Haste: -35%
Combined DMG: 84
Combined Delay: 380
Dual Wield Delay: -182.4 = 197.6
Individual Delay: 197.6/2 = 98.8
TP/Swing = 5.0 + [(98.8 - 180) * 1.5 / 180] = 4.3
Hasted Delay: -34.5 = 64.3
Swings/min = 3600/64.3 = 56.0
Double Attack1+ = 0.13*56.0 = +7.3
Double Attack2+ = 0.391*56.0 = +21.9
Double Attack3+ = 0.565*56.0 = +31.6
Quadruple Attack+ = (0.03*4)*56.0 = +6.7
Total Swings/min = 60.3+6.7+(7.3~21.9~31.6) = 67+(7.3~21.9~31.6)
=74.3~88.9~98.6
TPM = 4.3(74.3~88.9~98.6) = 319.49~382.27~423.98
DPS = 84(74.3~88.9~98.6) = 6241.2~7467.6~8282.4

============================================

Parazonium(DA) + Twilight
Dual Wield: -48%
Haste: -35%
Combined DMG: 85
Combined Delay: 401
Dual Wield Delay: -192.4 = 208.6
Individual Delay: 208.6/2 = 104.3
TP/Swing = 5.0 + [(104.3 - 180) * 1.5 / 180] = 4.3
Hasted Delay: -36.5 = 67.8
Swings/min = 3600/67.8 = 53.1
Double Attack1+ = 53.1*0.23 = 12.2
Double Attack2+ = 53.1*0.461 = 24.5
Double Attack3+ = 53.1*0.615 = 32.7
(I am going to assume Quad Attack and Double Attack can't both proc, right?)
Quadruple Attack1+ = (0.03*4)*(53.1-12.2) = 0.12*40.9 = +4.9
Quadruple Attack2+ = (0.03*4)*(53.1-24.5) = 0.12*28.6 = +3.4
Quadruple Attack3+ = (0.03*4)*(53.1-32.7) = 0.12*20.4 = +2.5
Total Swings/min1 = 53.1+4.9(quad)+12.2(DA) = 70.2
Total Swings/min2 = 53.1+3.4(quad)+24.5(DA) = 81
Total Swings/min3 = 53.1+2.5(quad)+32.7(DA) = 88.3
= 70.2~81~88.3
TPM = 4.3(70.2~81~88.3) = 301.86~348.3~379.69
DPS = 85(70.2~81~88.3) = 5967~6885~7505.5

===============================================

Auric+Twilight
TPM = 316.26~382.62~426.72
DPS = 5948.7~7196.9~8026.4

Phurba+Auric
TPM = 286.02~352.38~396.48
DPS = 5652.3~6963.7~7835.2

Auric+OA2-4 Parazonium+2
TPM: 391.8~422.2~442.4
DPS: 2554.8~2837~3025.4

Auric+DA Parazonium+2
TPM = 301.86~358.62~396.46
DPS = 5896.8~7005.6~7744.8

Phurba+Twilight
TPM = 319.49~382.27~423.98
DPS = 6241.2~7467.6~8282.4

Parazonium(DA) + Twilight
TPM = 301.86~348.3~379.69
DPS = 5967~6885~7505.5

Dagger Combos By DPS, Highest -> Lowest

Phurba+Twilight
v
Auric+Twilight
v
Phurba+Auric
v
Auric+DA Parazonium+2
v
Parazonium(DA) + Twilight
v
Auric+OA2-4 Parazonium+2

Dagger Combos by TP/M, Highest -> Lowest
Auric+OA2-4 Parazonium+2
v
Phurba+Twilight
v
Auric+Twilight
v
Phurba+Auric
v
Auric+DA Parazonium+2
v
Parazonium(DA) + Twilight

Synopsis (AKA: TL;DR)

SO we have, for highest TP gain, Auric +OA2-4 dagger offhanded. The TP gain of this combo soars above the rest with fan dance up, however once you put up saber dance its TP rate actually gets caught up to by all the other sets quite quickly. This makes sense as you'll often double attack on OA2-4 swings instead of having the effect proc, slowing TP gain a bit.

The next best for TP gain is Phurba+Twilight, which also happens to have significantly the highest DPS. With Saber Dance up this pair is only 20 TP/M lower than Auric+OA2-4, yet it has nearly triple the DPS.

Auric makes a decent substitute in for twilight or phurba in this deadly combo, ranking in at second and third place for DPS and 3rd/4th in TPM.

Tl;Dr Any combination of Auric, Twilight, and Phurba is a recipe for win. Note: all you dancers with +2 AF3 gear, we're fairly certain Twilight's proc effect cancels out or +2 set bonus so avoid mainhanding Twilight. Tops you lose 1 base DMG in the auric+twilight combo, which seems like a good trade off imo for a "just in case" measure.

If you have any questions feel free to ask. Also if there's an issue in anything I calculated please point it out!

If you have a request for another dagger combo to see how it compares against the rest, feel free to post, though I'd appreciate it if you tried to calculate it yourself, I even posted the equations up at the top. It's not hard, just time consuming. Most of this is grade 7 math.

And if you find a rather notable dagger combo in DPS or TP/M, do post it for us to see!

Finally:
I spent over 4 hours doing all this number crunching, so please, if you're going to post all of this somewhere else (And I will see it, I browse nearly every big FFXI forum out there) take the 15 seconds to give me credit, ok?

~Urat (of Quetz)
Jun 18 2011 at 2:28 PM Rating: Good
Sage
1,252 posts
Thanks for the numbers but would have also liked to see a comparison with the kilas as well (although from what you posted it would be easy to just plug them in)

Also on the bit on twilight and set bonus, I'm 90% sure that it still procs since I ran a small test myself with just single wielding and haste samba. I'll check it again when I get home today.

Edit: Confirmed. Was lucky enough to get all three samples in a short period (regular crit, set bonus with samba proc, and set bonus with no samba proc). And sample was done with of course 5/5 AF3+2 and single wielded twilight.

Now I'm not condoning the use of twilight, just setting the facts straight.

Edited, Jun 18th 2011 6:01pm by Kalisa
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Elemental Magian Dagger Guide
Gearsets/etc
Jun 18 2011 at 7:20 PM Rating: Decent
Scholar
1,054 posts
Quote:
then 30%/50% Double attack+ from Saber dance Max/Min based on average merits

Quote:
Saber Dance - 21.5-22.5% Double Attack, stacks with gear and annuls /WAR trait

EDIT: Also to have more realistic numbers, fSTR needs to be considered, it makes a considerable difference in comparsion of damage.

Edited, Jun 18th 2011 11:50pm by doctorugh
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is a big deal now.
Jun 18 2011 at 11:44 PM Rating: Decent
947 posts
Considering WS damage and WS frequency would also be an improvement.

You know, in general I'm a fan of simplifying assumptions, because I believe our modeling of FFXI isn't so accurate that being anal about every last tenth of a percentage point is going to reveal the truth to us. Realistically, our model is probably so inaccurate that any substantially different comparison that ends up within 2-3% is likely not differentiable from the model. I make plenty of simplifying assumptions when I make models for game damage. I love to do things like ignore pDIF and crit rate when possible (as you have, though they actually do kind of matter due to Evisceration's Crit boost).

Still, you can't claim to do a DPS comparison and leave out important quantities like WS damage and frequency. And WS frequency isn't just (TP/min)/100, you have to consider WS TP return, WS delay, JA delays if you're including Steps/Flourish, etc. There are problems like that with every level of your comparison, but I'm certain my first Dancer math didn't look a whole lot better. Keep at it, but try to add the important stuff in. Also, you'll save yourself headaches down the line if you do it in Excel.
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