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Right... So what daggers should I be going for?Follow

#1 Jun 13 2011 at 6:07 PM Rating: Default
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Hi guys

I just hit 90 and want to work on as man trial daggers as possible.

Problem is I hear so much mixed opinion when hearing about which ones to pick.

So far I have come to the conclusion that 2x EVA+20 kila+2 is the best weapon setup for solo.

But what about the rest?

Should I be working on any other particular trial daggers?
#2 Jun 13 2011 at 9:20 PM Rating: Decent
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Laago wrote:
Hi guys

I just hit 90 and want to work on as man trial daggers as possible.

Problem is I hear so much mixed opinion when hearing about which ones to pick.

So far I have come to the conclusion that 2x EVA+20 kila+2 is the best weapon setup for solo.

But what about the rest?

Should I be working on any other particular trial daggers?


If you go that route, you wont be disappointed. Serves for tanking and solo, which it what dnc does for 90% of the game.

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#3 Jun 14 2011 at 3:03 AM Rating: Good
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You really didn't give much info about what you're going to be doing (dd, healing, solo, etc) nor about how much time you have to work on daggers (empyrean, elemental, other).

Obviously twashtar will be your best main hand weapon. If you don't have time for it, STR kila is also a good main hand weapon.

Offhand and other combos will differ depending on what you're doing. DPS wise (and I'm sure I'll be corrected if I'm wrong) but I think the double attack +10 dagger is the best offhand, especially stacked with other DA gear (up to 23% total in an ideal setup). There is also the tp bonus fusetto if you're spamming WSs. And of course you're already aware of the evasion daggers. I personally rarely use 2 of them (even though I have 2) and just match them with one other dagger.

Then there's the non magian daggers. Phurba is a good choice if you're healing or you're in an uncapped accuracy situation (also the dex elemental dagger, but why not have the extra healing from phurba). Twilight isn't terrible, but isn't all that great either. Fairly usable when you're working on other daggers. Auric is also still a decent dagger, but will probably be obsolete within the next level cap increase.
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#4 Jun 14 2011 at 10:00 AM Rating: Default
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Right so

Solo and tanking

2x eva kila

dps

main hand str kila off hand DA+ parazonium?

Good place to start?
#5 Jun 14 2011 at 11:40 AM Rating: Good
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Reverse the last two. Main hand Para+2, offhand STR Kila +2.

Yeah, that's a fine place to start.
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#6 Jun 14 2011 at 5:38 PM Rating: Default
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Quote:
but I think the double attack +10 dagger is the best offhand, especially stacked with other DA gear


This is a misnomer, DA actually loses value per DA as it goes up. Diminishing returns.
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#7 Jun 17 2011 at 8:37 AM Rating: Good
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I'm doing the 2-4 attacks kraken dagger, but man does it eat up a lot of time killing 500-700 mobs per trial. Only 1300 or so mobs... until they add another trial, at least! I am so envious of the people that just need to AH buy 15 geod(ud)es to finish their last trial!

Anyone have a good recomendation for a main hand damage dagger? Twashtar is a bit out of my current sphere of influence right now, but I'm willing to throw time at other magians that I can do solo. Currently using an evasion Kila, which isn't terrible, but makes me feel lacking when we're doing NMs.
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#8 Jun 17 2011 at 1:56 PM Rating: Good
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I am adamantly against the 2-4 (even though I have one completed hehe) but you would almost have to have the STR kila to compliment it in the main hand due to its rediculously low DMG.

It is a fun toy though, and the tp gain can't be beat, but the fact that it doesn't stack with DA, TA, or WSs and feeds A TON of TP to mobs without giving much damage in return makes me not like it all that much.




Blah editing mistakes on android browser sucks ***...I'll clean it up later....


Edited, Jun 17th 2011 6:36pm by Kalisa
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#9 Jun 18 2011 at 12:07 AM Rating: Good
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Kalisa wrote:
It is a fun toy though, and the tp gain can't be beat, but the fact that it doesn't stack with DA, TA, or WSs and feeds A TON of TP to mobs without giving much damage in return makes me not like it all that much.

Well, I don't use it on NMs with the LS, but soloing I never have a problem with TP spam. Subtle blow is pretty cool. Most mobs only get off one TP move, if that. The extra TP getting poured into eviscerations tend to end them in a hurry.
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#10 Jun 24 2011 at 11:08 AM Rating: Good
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I'm having a little trouble figuring out what to use myself. DNC is really my 4th or 5th priority job, so I don't currently have a magian dagger and it's something I'd work on slowly (with my eye on Eva Kila+2 for solo). I'll be using DNC for solo or small group (2-3 people) stuff. Here's what I have available:

- Twilight Knife
- Auric Dagger
- Yataghan (DMG+8, Crit daamge+3%)
- Yataghan (DMG+7)

Advice given those choices? I would guess mainhand the better Yataghan, offhand Twilight or Auric (I'd tend to think Twilight). How would things change if I was lucky enough to get a Phurba?

Also, can someone explain what's so bad about Twilight? I know that Sambas don't proc on that hand (but proc from the other hand is all you need to keep up Haste Samba). Quadruple attack +3% on both hands (and on WS) plus the fairly frequent TP/HP drain seems very nice for DNC to me though. Respectable DMG/delay too.

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#11 Jun 24 2011 at 12:35 PM Rating: Excellent
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Anza wrote:
I'm having a little trouble figuring out what to use myself. DNC is really my 4th or 5th priority job, so I don't currently have a magian dagger and it's something I'd work on slowly (with my eye on Eva Kila+2 for solo). I'll be using DNC for solo or small group (2-3 people) stuff. Here's what I have available:

- Twilight Knife
- Auric Dagger
- Yataghan (DMG+8, Crit daamge+3%)
- Yataghan (DMG+7)

Advice given those choices? I would guess mainhand the better Yataghan, offhand Twilight or Auric (I'd tend to think Twilight). How would things change if I was lucky enough to get a Phurba?

Also, can someone explain what's so bad about Twilight? I know that Sambas don't proc on that hand (but proc from the other hand is all you need to keep up Haste Samba). Quadruple attack +3% on both hands (and on WS) plus the fairly frequent TP/HP drain seems very nice for DNC to me though. Respectable DMG/delay too.



I imagine Yata/Yata and Yata/Twilight would be fairly similar damage-wise overall. If you get a Phurba, perhaps offhand the better Yataghan? You could also use a Mantodea Harpe if you can get a hold of one, as that's a pretty solid dagger option.

The Twilight Knife isn't bad; the problem is that it's possibly the 4th/5th/6th-ish best option for DNCs. The magian daggers available are just plain better. Having said that, Twilight does have its uses as a defensive dagger, and it's a completely fine option for those who don't want to go through the magian trials if, as you say, DNC is a lower-priority job on your list.
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#12 Jun 27 2011 at 3:36 AM Rating: Decent
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As for now, is there any eva-tanking case that 2x Yataghan can't do but 2x AGI Kila +2 can?

I'm trying to save some space and effort for temporary dagger collection, since level cap is still raising. Given 4 slot for daggers, aside Twashtar, what would you pick?
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#13 Jun 27 2011 at 4:09 AM Rating: Good
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I could limit it down to two options for you with most current content:
STR/Atk Kila +2
AGI/Eva Kila +2

If Dynamis NMs are anything to go by, you'll also want:
DEX/Acc Kila +2

And just because it's unique:
Phurba
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#14 Jun 27 2011 at 7:17 AM Rating: Good
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After doing voidwatch this past weekend I definitely advocate the phurba/dex kila ************ things are horribly evasive...
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#15 Jun 27 2011 at 8:33 AM Rating: Decent
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Yeah, realistically we're still not a very accurate job and ~20 Acc on a weapon (Kila +2) is very valuable. If you were trying to DD evasive monsters, and using an DEX/Acc Kila over STR/Atk let you use Meat instead of Pizza, or Pizza instead of Sushi, then DEX/Acc Kila is your best option. 20 Acc in one slot is an awful lot.

Personally, I have:
Twashtar (90)
Martial Knife
STR/Atk Kila +2
DEX/Acc Kila +2
2 AGI/Eva Kila +2
Phurba
STP Fusetto +2
Twilight Knife (though I should d-box it to my mule)
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#16 Jun 28 2011 at 7:44 AM Rating: Decent
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Byrthnoth wrote:
Yeah, realistically we're still not a very accurate job and ~20 Acc on a weapon (Kila +2) is very valuable.

35 acc from Acc bonus III and 15 acc from 5/5 Closed Position already raise the bar much higher than THF's base acc. Is the rest of our acc gear really that bad?

DNC should be the most accurate 1 hander out there.
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#17 Jun 28 2011 at 11:07 AM Rating: Excellent
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If you're using 5/5 Closed Position (as I am), good gear, and the monster is facing you, then it is very competitive.

We get (optimal TP set, not including weapons):
(341 Dagger + 16 Skill merits + 5 Skill from gear) = 345 Acc
8 Acc from gear
81 DEX base + 30 DEX from gear = 55 Acc
35 Acc from traits
= 443 Acc total (+15 from 5/5 Closed Position when applicable.)

Monk gets (AF3+2, Faith Torque, other things are what you'd guess):
361+7+16 Skill = 365 Acc
43 Acc from gear
83+5 DEX = 44 Acc
= 452 Acc Total (+20 Focus when active)

Thief gets (AF3+2 4/5, Homam feet, the rest is what you'd guess):
354+16+5 Skill = 357 Acc
86+30 DEX = 58 Acc
36 Acc from gear
= 451 Acc total (Conspirator - +20?, Feint - huge, Sneak/Trick Attack - 100%, Ambush - +15 max)

So we aren't exactly running away with the prize, if you consider the optimal gear we wear in most situations. Also, having the highest Acc of any 1-hander wouldn't mean that we don't need an Acc dagger in some situations. A lot of the new content is very evasive, and an Acc dagger is the best choice.
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#18 Jun 28 2011 at 12:30 PM Rating: Decent
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I just wondered where NIN would fall on the 1-h ACC continuum that was brought up:

AF3+2, no weapons, rest is good gear
Skill 354+16+5 = 357 ACC
DEX 80+42(gear) = 61 ACC
ACC (gear) = 40 ACC
(intangibles of Innin and ACC from sub)
So 358 as a ballpark. Kind of cool.
#19 Jun 28 2011 at 12:38 PM Rating: Good
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Byrthnoth wrote:
A lot of the new content is very evasive, and an Acc dagger is the best choice.


By "a lot of the new content", do you mean Voidwatch NMs and Arch Dyna NMs? I still think that's a pretty small percentage of what most people actually DO in today's FFXI. There's nothing in Abyssea that should pose an Acc problem between Atma/Cruor Buffs, and very few other things outside that present an Acc issue outside of the occasional unusually evasive NM.

Remember too that if you're struggling with Acc as a DNC, other DDs are highly likely to also be struggling. So if you're in one of those unusual situations, might want to consider Quickstep anyway.

I just don't see Acc as an issue for DNC on the vast majority of content. I guess if you're doing lots of Voidwatch that's one thing, but otherwise...
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#20 Jun 28 2011 at 12:44 PM Rating: Good
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I agree Acc isn't an issue on the vast majority of content. A lot of what people currently do is fight EP monsters or fight in situations where you have incredibly inflated stats (Abyssea).

However, if we take Voidwatch and new Dynamis NMs as examples of the direction SE wants to head (keep in mind that Voidwatch is supposed to be a 3-4 part series, iirc), then it's kind of hard to argue that there won't probably be situations where you want an Acc/DEX dagger in the future. If I was making a top-4 list, I'd say it's pretty hard to argue against.
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#21 Jun 28 2011 at 7:11 PM Rating: Decent
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To be fair, in place where you need acc, Charis necklace should be substituted by Faith/PCC, this will catch up the lack of 9~10 acc with the other 2 competitors you mentioned.
Our DW is pretty close to the cap, and 10% JA haste from samba really pushes the attack speed higher than most of the job
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#22 Jun 28 2011 at 10:16 PM Rating: Good
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I agree, but 20 Acc is more than the 12 Acc I could be getting from Ziel. Obviously Ziel comes first if I'm close to cap (or Rancor collar if I'm even closer), but that really is about the only piece you could swap out without it being more reasonable to just go straight to an Acc dagger.

Other options:
Taranis's Harness + STR/Atk Kila, or AF3+2 body and Acc Kila +2? 24~5 Attack, 9 STR, and 5 STP vs. 10% DW and 10 Subtle Blow.
Mars's Ring + Ziel Necklace + STR/Atk Kila, or Acc Kila +2 + AF3 neck + AF3+2 body? 32-33 Attack and 9 STR (minus quite a bit of evasion) vs 13% DW, 15 Subtle Blow, 3% DA, and 3% TA

Those are pretty much our most efficient exchanges (as far as I can tell), but when it comes down to it you need the Acc that you need and +20 is huge. Having double marches gives us a lot more room to play around, because we wouldn't need any Dual Wield at all in gear.
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#23 Jun 29 2011 at 1:15 PM Rating: Good
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VZX wrote:
To be fair, in place where you need acc, Charis necklace should be substituted by Faith/PCC


I assume you mean Love, not Faith (as a MNK and PUP, a mistake I might make myself out of habit!). I'd add Agasaya's Collar to the mix as well, essentially trading the Enhance DW on Charis for Acc/Atk+8.

Your point is true that you can make other gear changes (and use appropriate food, maybe toss in some quicksteps) to make up for any Acc lost by using a lower Acc weapon.

But still, devil's advocate here... a single Thunder path Kila+2 is 19~20 Acc and good DMG/delay, and if you really wanted to you could use two of em. That's pretty beefy for a single slot. Even Phurba's +10acc is a pretty significant chunk on a weapon that also has the really useful extra effect and still retains great DMG/delay (at least for the 90cap world - we'll see if it gets left in the dust as new weapons and new magian trials arrive, my concern with all of the 89cap JSE weapons).

I personally don't see many reasons it's ever actually necessary to go that Acc heavy on the weapon, and I'm a bit skeptical that 91-99 will change that. Voidwatch may need some acc at level 90, but it's reasonable to think that maybe the initial run of Voidwatch content is built to last a little longer as we get above level 90 (and therefore the acc issues will decrease once we grow into 95/99cap). That's as opposed to the thought that we should expect comparable Acc issues to 90cap Voidwatch today for new content released in the future in a 95/99 cap world. I could certainly be wrong, but I'm taking more of a wait and see approach before I start going too crazy investing time into getting Acc gear that might or might not be completely unnecessary. Plus, if Acc really is that important in 91-99, we just might get some new amazing Acc pieces in future updates anyway... again, I'll wait and see.

If you have some good Acc daggers now or if you've got nothing better to do than make some new magian daggers, certainly doesn't hurt to have them. But is it worth the effort to make new ones now if you don't already have them? Eh... I'd personally say no, with a caveat that maybe it will become worthwhile to have them at 95/99 cap (but maybe it won't, so you might be wasting your time).
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#24 Jun 29 2011 at 2:00 PM Rating: Good
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To further the devils advocate play, dex kila is also...dex kila lol. Other than 90 twashtar it has the highest amount of dex in a weapon slot. As we move out of abyssea we're gonna have to worry about WS mods on gear more and 9 dex (will probably increase with more trials) can go a long way for rudras/evis. Again it probably wont be the best choice in acc capped situations, but to get a boost in both acc and WS mods will make it a handy choice to have as an option.

And that's what the elemental daggers really come down to...they aren't the top tier end all daggers, but give you some **** good options according to what situation you might need them in.
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#25 Jul 12 2011 at 11:26 AM Rating: Good
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I am guessing Daka+2 for Rudra's Storm just got a LOT more desirable whereas before it wasn't much of an improvement.

Twashstar is still much better but in my experience WoE won't take too long in comparison.
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#26 Jul 26 2011 at 7:41 AM Rating: Good
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Daka... Worth it? I'm not going to get the full emp. But I'm wondering if the Daka is worth picking up and how it fares outside abyssea.

Thanks.
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